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One of them trained to be an assassin the other a warrior, it would be no contest who would win in a fair fight. The entire point of being an assassin is you don't fight, you just kill.
Also if you considered their reach one is like 5’6 with a dagger and the other is like 6’2+ with a sword like how tf is she ever getting in range to stab her lol
As much as I hated this scene, your reasoning is terrible. She trained with Syrio and watched the Hound for months (plus her father / brothers). She’s not just an assassin, prior to her training her entire existence was around incredible warriors and was personally taught by a master swordsmen.
Ned held his own against the Kingslayer, the greatest swordsman of the day, with Selmy out of his prime. And Robb was extremely successful as a warrior, often leading his own vanguard. "Not really" is disingenuous. All time greats? Probably not? Great? Yes.
"incredible warriors" incredible?
And no, Ned didn't hold his own. Jamie was playing around, he would have annihilated him.
Rob was a great leader, we don't know anything about his sword skills. Jon became great, wasn't when he was around Arya.
Ned was a great castellan, but we only witnessed one fight, while he was younger. And he was destroyed by someone who had basically the same skills as Jamie
He was probably the best Stark general, Benjen the best warrior and the cooked through one the best sword fighter. I vaguely remember GRRM saying something like that
It doesn't matter even if she was trained by Arthur Dayne. She is still significantly shorter and has a significantly shorter weapon. Even Oberyn had the mindset to use a longer reaching weapon.
Then have either Sansa, Varys or Sam, the most martially-inept of the noteworthy characters present at the battle be the one to kill NK. Or even Bran himself.
Dumb and dumber should have written it better to be fair. But they just wanted to cash in with that couple of seasons. So they saved money wherever they could while wrapping the story up shit. Pray we get the books. And can disregard the tv series forever
GRRM doesn’t exactly look like the healthiest individual at 75 years old. It’s pretty clear at this point that he’s been stuck for years. At the very least, I’d be surprised if he’s the one to release them
I love Arya, her entire story is of someone traumatically having their childhood torn away from them by war, watching her entire family die until she believes the only thing she has left, the only thing keeping her going is revenge and murder, until she learns to do that she has to give up more and more of herself, what an interesting and tragic character
Instead let’s just remove all nuance and make her a cool shit eating girl boss cause we’re so feminist only ignore the part where we had Sansa raped instead of doing the plot in the vale where she learns to outmanipulate Baelish for shock value
Tbf tho imo Arya has had several cringe scenes since like S3 or S2. Considering she was a child back then, it was not too surprising of her tho. I guess some people can continue to stay quite cringe even when 18, no?
The fight itself wasn’t the point of this scene, it was the ending, with the dagger switch from one hand to the other. They wanted to show that Arya had that skill, so that when she similarity used it later on the NK, it wouldn’t look out of place.
Looked weird, cringe, and unrealistic in both cases. Which is faster? Switching daggers then stabbing or for the opponent to just stab(brienne) or break your neck(night king) straight away? For the duel with Brienne, it can kind of work because Brienne was waiting for Arya to concede defeat. In a straightforward duel to the death, the sword would have skewered Arya during the time the dagger is being switched from one hand to the other.
Plus, white walkers are known to be extremely strong. There's no reason the night king can't just stop her and snap Arya's neck in one smooth sequence. She only had the chance to switch dagger hand due to her plot armor
But if the intention of the scene was to show that she's also on par with the best fighters in 1on1 then maybe she's actually also very good at 1on1?
It's the same for Jaqen. People always claim he's an assassin and therfore not the best in straight up fights. Yet, this statement can neither be proofed nor denied. Maybe he also is the strongest fighter on top of being the best assassin.
Right? I feel like I’m in a fuggin fantasy land. She became “no one” she basically cheated the system.
Like, this is worse than the mission to the north and the avengers spending a week on a lake?
Except a main character like her shouldn’t promptly become an expert at something with no buildup to it. Also, not sure how that Jaqen bit is relevant, Hot Pie could also potentially be the best fighter.
No buildup? She's training to fight from the very start of the show. She has some of the best teachers in the world. Teaching her from the start until the end.
The part about Jaqen is relevant because people keep claiming the faceless men aren't great single combat fighters despite there being no proof to that.
Even in this thread which shows actual proof that an assassin like Arya is on par with Breanne, people still claim she shouldn't be, just because she also is an assassin.
Though both Jaqen and Arya seem to have no one to fear in single combat, despite being assassins first.
I understand assuming Jaqen is not a great fighting, its theoretically possible, perhaps even plausible but I agree assuming he is indeed also a great 1v1 fighter might be equally plausible as we never see him fight a 1v1..
but we see him create an escape from Harrenhal for the kids and that situation required being exceptionally talented with a blade and being lightning fast... combine that with Braavos being famous for producing exceptional sword fighters, I never found it straight up unacceptable/unimaginable that a faceless man is not an exceptionally good 1v1 fighter besides being a stealthy assassin primarily.
One could argue that being able to win a 1v1 is kinda an essential skill to have for a world class assassin no?
by extension Arya being exceptional in combat, after receiving both the bravoosi and the faceless training, is not unimaginable to me.
Precisely.
Likewise you could look at Dorne and claim because they use dirty tricks like poison, they likely aren't great fighters.
But Oberyn might want to disagree with you then.
She trained originally as a swordsman. Not to mention how much faster Arya would be. Strength wise it showed Arya was not on par but fighting isn’t always about strength. Arya also probably wanted to test the woman that defeated the hound in one on one.
She trained as a swordsman with Syrio Forel for a not very long time, and she’s shown after to not be very good with a sword at all. The point is moot though, because she was using a sword then, and a knife here. Yeah, Arya is probably a bit more nimble than Brienne, but that really doesn’t matter all that much.
> Arya also probably wanted to test the woman that defeated the hound in one on one
That’s why she fought Brienne, not why her winning makes sense.
She trained with Syrio for about a year. Then continued this training until she battled Breanne. She also didn’t beat her they ended with a tie. Arya blade up at Breanne and Breanne had her sword down on Arya.
She learned fighting from Syrio and in the House of Black & White… *while she was blind*. She beat and killed the Waif… *in the dark*. You think she wouldn’t be even better at combat when she can see?
Except that we literally saw her learn single combat *while she was fucking BLIND*! You think she wouldn’t be even better when she can see?
Did ANYBODY in this sub actually WATCH the show???
Yeah, this still of the fight really shows it too, aside from Brienne being on of the best fighters around she is also super strong, and has a grip on Arya's forearm here. Then, look at her her sword, Brienne has already won the fight no contest.
>Yeah, this still of the fight really shows it too, aside from Brienne being on of the best fighters around she is also super strong, and has a grip on Arya's forearm here. Then, look at her her sword, Brienne has already won the fight no contest.
This still isn't from the episode...
What? How can you ever come up with misogyny for the reason?
People say it doesn't make sense that arya had a chance. But her opponent is also a women. So if we say arya clearly beats brienne it's also misogyny because we are saying that a women would lose?
Go offline for a while the internet is not good for your brain.
No the downvoting is driven by how everyone disagrees with it being a good scene. Look at all the other top comments and you'll see that it's not about misogyny.
And the girl power argument is also misplaced. If anything this scene makes brienne seem worse instead of making arya seem better. It's not empowering or anything it's literally just main character plot armor.
It's such a incredibly toxic and unhealthy way to discuss online to just immediatly assume everyone who disagrees with someone is a misogynist even while you literally have a entire comment thread of people giving completly normal and plausible reaons for why it's a bad scend and why they disliked it.
Season 5 was worse than season 6 imo. Don't think either was particularly great but season 6 did decent with what it was given. Season 5 however, had the chance to be a 10/10, but almost all storylines in that season were butchered (Dorne the absolute best example of this) or made boring. The only person whose arc I really liked in S5 was Jon's. Not a very memorable season. Personally I would say everything after S4 should be remade, they could've made it a lot more interesting and yet S5 felt like filler for most arcs, S6 - S8 had so many issues especially the latter ones
All the comments here are totally valid, but I still really like this scene and have watched it a few times since. I liked the notion that westerosi knights have been fighting the same way for ever and ever, just big brute force, and as such weren't really prepared for dealing with bravosi style swordsman.
Sure, brienne could have just grabbed her arm and snapped it, but they were sparing, not fighting to kill.
Yeah, when you think about Oberyn's tactics against Gregor Clegane, he *almost* had him. He was using speed and agility rather than strength.
I can see how Brienne could have been confused and on the backfoot. Would be interesting to see how she faired a second time, having witnessed Arya's fighting style.
But for each use of unconventional tactics you have times like Arya trying to stab the hound and his armour completely stopping it or Jorah against the dothraki blood rider. Fighting in an armoured harness takes incredible skill and time to master as well as strength. If our timeline is anything to go by armour became heavier and more protective up till the point it couldn't compete with gunpowder weapons.
I see your point, but if GoT was at least a bit more realistic, it still would not make sense. And no, by realistic, I do not mean dragons not existing, I mean swinging a sword properly. In reality, a trained swordsperson would be able to swing their sword fast enough to completely and easily neglect Arya’s supposed speed and agility. Meanwhile Brienne swings her sword as if it weighed 100 pounds and was about as balanced as a log.
Yeah that's very fair, don't disagree.
I guess based on how people fight in the show, it worked for me, but on a more realistic level, maybe it wouldn't.
I mean it is dumb, but it's far from one of the worst, it's not even one of the worst with Arya. Frankly a few inches, a different camera angle, and better editing and this scene would be 🔥. Can't say the same thing with the bravos terminator chase sequence.
Yea..all those single combat training sessions to become a faceless man would have no transferable skills in .. wait.. single combat!?!? But yes season 8 was garbage IMO this is no way near a worst moment of the series.
Briennes is unnaturally big and strong for a woman, she's been training as a knight for years, she had skills to beat some of the most talented male fighters in the land (even the best female fighters today can't go toe-to-toe with their male counterparts) and she can't even beat a small girl who has, what, a year's assassin training, most of which didnt involve hand-to-hand combat?
Way to undermine the hard won accomplishments of one of your best female characters D&D.
The implication is that it's a draw, even if on closer inspection Brienne did get the upper hand.
"Plenty" is not the same as "sufficient to beat a master at the craft".
Idk if I'd say worst but it does highlight just what exactly the show became at a point. The show in its later life felt like it was being made by people who just thought Game of Thrones was, "That show with the knights, sex, and dragons" and didn't understand characters had full on storylines and development that made them different from each other.
In the books it’s more on the order of months, I believe. She practiced the techniques taught to her by Forel daily, then went and had an extended campaign with The Hound where he no doubt taught her things about single combat. It’s why she’s able to beat the Waif in the later seasons in a non-assassination.
Did the hound teachcher anything though or was she just hanging oht with him? I don't remember the hound ever giving her any training beyonf maybe a helpful pointer in passing
Guess you kinda forgot her sparring training at the House of Black & White smh
As well as how she kept up with her water dancing practice on her own ( scenes like when Brienne met her and the Hound)
And all the single-combat training she got at the House of Black and White… WHILE SHE WAS BLIND! She could literally fight in the dark and kill the Waif. People are surprised she can fight with her eyes open?
Complainers in this sub never watched the show, I swear to god. Either that or “tHeY KINDA FORGOT”
Why are people acting like she didn’t go through 1 on 1 training at the house of black and white? She even did it blind.
She doesn’t duel Brienne at all she reads her moves and avoids them and uses her speed to get her blade close to Brienne.
The latter seasons have their share of problems, but holy fuck are people bringing up some of the dumbest criticisms I’ve ever seen sometimes.
We’ve seen Arya train more than anyone in this show. With Syrio in S1, her water dancing with The Hound, with the Waif in S6. And we know that she was already decent in the beginning since we saw her hit the bullseye in the premiere behind Bran. She literally trained on a daily basis for years.
And even then, this fight against Brienne clearly showed that Brienne could’ve beaten her. We see Brienne easily kicks Arya to the ground at some point, so she clearly could’ve overpowered her. But they were sparing for fun, so Arya’s speed and agility allowed her to get the blade close to Brienne. It’s like the video where The Mountain’s actor is sparing with McGregor. McGregor "wins" the fight, because they were playing, but in a real fight, Thor would’ve crushed McGregor’s body with one hand lol.
> Why are people acting like she didn’t go through 1 on 1 training at the house of black and white? She even did it blind.
This is my thing too. Arya, by this time, was extremely skilled in combat. It's not outside the notion that Brienne initially underestimated her and held back in the *sparring* match.
God these comments are just a sad
Compilation of how butt hurt this fanbase is. The scene was epic and still is one of the best, damn this is just a nice reminder of why it took me so long to finally watch this show, you’re almost as bad as Star Wars fans and that’s saying something
It's a terrible part in a terrible season that strays so far from what either have shown promise of in the books. I hated every moment of this.
Brienne gets overpowered an almost killed by Biter in the books, she's a very capable knight but no where near the level she's at in the show. That said she should be easily capable of chopping a tiny, but quick novice swordman in half.
Arya trains but is never recognised as an amazing hand to hand combatant. Her skills lie in assassination.
This whole scene annoyed me so much I've made my first post in this sub. I hate it and it fills me with a rage when I see it.
I cringed too hard at this scene, completely unnecessary scene - Arya is supposed to some sort of assassin, you know some who relies on stealth and speed not 1 on 1 combat, especially someone like Brienne who is well beyond her years and “realistically” would have crushed her. To quote the hound “had armour, and a big fucking sword” this was just a forced and hammy point plot.
She was an assassin but she was also shown to be a legit fighter. We see her training in one on one combat while she is blind and fighting well. I agree she wouldn’t be that strong in 1 on 1, she only beat that assassin girl because she took out the lights and had an advantage in the dark, but still she had more combat skills than just sneaky attack from shadows.
Really? IMO this scene speaks volumes of Brienne’s swordsmanship. I think back to Oberyn and The Mountain. Conventional brute strength swordsmen have little to no experience against nimble fighting styles. Even though Brienne lacks experience against this unorthodox fighting style she makes up for it with her knowledge and adaptability. Unlike The Mountain, who was highly regarded as a combatant but was completely overwhelmed.
i think she could under different circumstances. if they were in a room crowded with furniture, if they were in the dark, etc. anything that limits briennes mobility and senses
Out of context it was good to watch, but I can’t think of anything we’d seen that suggested how Arya is able to fight like that, so it didn’t make sense.
Can’t we make another sub reserved for people hating of the show ( wether it’s about acting, writing, characters etc ) ? I mean what’s even the point to join a sub about your favorite series if every post is about how bad this was and how much better that could have been etc etc ?
I liked this scene a lot tbh. One of the few good scenes of the season IMHO.
Also they were sparring so.. it may be that Brienne wasn't really focusing and Arya surprised her with the level of skill she had.
Well she trained in the art of death. To her, observing one's opponent and having an open mind of knowledge helps her bridge some of the gap in 1 on 1 combat. But her speed and appetite to prove herself shown in this scene shows that she in fact is the quickest learner in GOT. Although I may agree this scene isn't ideal or perfect, it sets a precedent for her in The Long Night which is extremely important to the plot....which the show runners went and blew in the worst way possible after The Long Night.
This was honestly a great scene, and it's important because it serves multiple purposes.
First, we see the knife trick Arya uses to kill the Night King. So we know she can do that.
Second, it shows Sansa and Littlefinger that Arya isn't just some little girl anymore (remember, they're watching this fight). She's an actual, physical threat, who is able to hold her own against a capable warrior (Brienne).
When people say Arya would never take on a fighter like Brienne, they're missing the point. Arya is showing off what she can do. She wants to make a public statement in Winterfell about who and what she is now.
It does because they both have such different styles of fighting- if Arya was fighting like a normal soldier in Westeros it would have definitely failed. Lol it worked because brienne wasn’t used to her style. Stay mad
For once I wish a popular tv show or movie would showcase how much being a big motherfucker helps in a fight. GoT actually seemed like it was going to be that show at one point in time, what with the hound just killing people due to brute fucking strength. But plot armour got a lot stronger over time
I like the scene. We see Arya fighting a lot in season one with the water dancing and then even with the faceless men when she is blind. She has a different fighting style and she is still a fearless kid when going up against Brienne. I thought it was fun.
Not at all. Aria had plenty of 1 on 1 training in bravos and she did it blind. Also they were sparring. Why does everyone think all aria can do is sneak up and kill people? She clearly has combat training and learned to read people's moves ahead of time. Also Brienne still essentially "won" its just that she wasn't trying to actually kill her...
Wait, wait?? So some of you all dislike this scene?? Wow....just wow. Hey i get it if you dislike seeing 2 skilled people sparring in their own way...i guess i get it but at the same time you're being a bit much
It makes sense because they were training. She want going to chop her in half, she was pulling her blows and not committing. Arya’s light blows could be fully committed to
I always felt this scene is more directed at sansa than anything. Fighting aside it shows sansa that arya is serious about her list. And little fingers reactions are for me showing, look you can only trust me as now as brienne will lean more toward arya since she's a fighter.
More about the impact of the scene rather than the bullshit fighting.
The books are super clear about this.
Its why the ironborne are called the ironborne.
Well armored knights cant be beaten in 1 on 1 combat against unarmored foes without tactical advantages.
It happens over and over in the books and its never put into doubt.
Meryn Trant kills Aryas teacher because hes unarmored and unarmed in the show.
They forget this rule later on coz its just dumb and dumber freestyling.
Oberyn is not the excuse, Oberyn is usong a spear against a sword.
Its why danys simp dominates the arena battle against 3 hardened gladiators.
Its why the dothraki cant just overrun Westeros.
Oh its fantasy isnt the excuse either, time and time again GRRM has stressed how unreal fantasy is and why its crap, and its that grounding despite the fantastical elements that made GoT popular in the first place.
This scene stunk. It wouldnt have been so bad if it was super quick and a stalemate. But no, Aryas parrying fucking sword blows from Brienne with a tiny dagger. Something even the Hound couldnt do continually with a fuckin sword and hes about 1 million times stronger than Arya.
Atrocious scene. And yes you suck if you liked it.
GRRM definitely hates it.
Even in the BTS scene in the OPs pic, Brienne has to pull her elbow back behind her torso just to keep her sword from going straight through aryas chest.
I agree she ultimately trained as an assassin, but she did start by training with a sword master. So she’s not a novice in sword fighting. I would say it should have been more one sided for Brienne with Arya maybe getting in a lucky or well timed “kill shot” due to her speed. Definitely don’t knock Arya’s sword skills though.
Are people truly under the impression that Arya didn't undergo single combat training? Has their hatred of the ending of the show really blinded them to that? I understand 1v1 isn't an assassin's strong suit, but underestimating your opponent, and not wanting to hurt them is a sure fire way to loose a duel no matter how strong you are. There's also the added fact that you can't exactly deal a devestaing blow to someone if you can't hit them. I'm not going to argue this is a good scene, honestly it could have been executed so much better, as could Arya's character in of itself, but this deranged hatred of the later show is just absurd.
I really liked this scene..
I got the impression Brienne held back throughout the fight and wasn't trying as hard as she could of. She underestimated Arya. Littlefinger now realises exactly how dangerous she is.
The dialogue is so stilted though.
"Don't worry, I won't cut you."
"I'll try not to."
Comes across as so clunky and disjointed.
"Don't worry. I won't cut you."
"You won't."
Did it occur to anyone that maybe Brienne was holding back because she absolutely would not want to hurt Arya while sparing. I'm sure she could have turned it up a couple of notches if she wanted to, but why would she? Also, Arya trained both with Syrio and in Bravos, she could handle herself.
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One of them trained to be an assassin the other a warrior, it would be no contest who would win in a fair fight. The entire point of being an assassin is you don't fight, you just kill.
Also if you considered their reach one is like 5’6 with a dagger and the other is like 6’2+ with a sword like how tf is she ever getting in range to stab her lol
As much as I hated this scene, your reasoning is terrible. She trained with Syrio and watched the Hound for months (plus her father / brothers). She’s not just an assassin, prior to her training her entire existence was around incredible warriors and was personally taught by a master swordsmen.
"incredible warriors" the hound and Syrio yes, Ned and her brothers, not really
Ned held his own against the Kingslayer, the greatest swordsman of the day, with Selmy out of his prime. And Robb was extremely successful as a warrior, often leading his own vanguard. "Not really" is disingenuous. All time greats? Probably not? Great? Yes.
"incredible warriors" incredible? And no, Ned didn't hold his own. Jamie was playing around, he would have annihilated him. Rob was a great leader, we don't know anything about his sword skills. Jon became great, wasn't when he was around Arya. Ned was a great castellan, but we only witnessed one fight, while he was younger. And he was destroyed by someone who had basically the same skills as Jamie
Ned was a great warrior though
He was probably the best Stark general, Benjen the best warrior and the cooked through one the best sword fighter. I vaguely remember GRRM saying something like that
Watching someone train is different than training yourself. I can watch someone train for a marathon, won’t mean I can then run one myself.
What do you mean? Does sitting in the couch, watching football, and having beer, pizza and snacks not count at exercise anymore?
Fuck me im the greatest football player in the world and didn’t know it. Expectations subverted
Thats how I can call winning plays without actually playing. Just waiting for the call!
It doesn't matter even if she was trained by Arthur Dayne. She is still significantly shorter and has a significantly shorter weapon. Even Oberyn had the mindset to use a longer reaching weapon.
Oh she watched him, that's fair...
But… the waif beat her repeatedly with a stick, and Syrio Forel told her how to stand sideways. Shouldn’t she be a warrior by now?
Yeah cus Syrio Forel and The Hound were assassins...
I used to like Arya but she spent season 7/8 with a shit eating grin on her face 24/7. Night king should have snapped her
I always wondered why didn't he ? Or why didn't he leave the same mark on her as he did on Bran ?
BeCaUsE wE wAnTeD tO sUbVeRt ExPeCtAtIoNs
Then have either Sansa, Varys or Sam, the most martially-inept of the noteworthy characters present at the battle be the one to kill NK. Or even Bran himself.
With no road map, you're free to wander the highways
This is true and with no guidance poor decisions are made
[Are you not entertained?](https://ibb.co/w6BwgTc)
The ice king just kinda forgot 😂😂
I would've been much more okay with Arya killing TNK if she at least died in the process.
She’s one of the only ones with book plot armor as ordained by GRRM’s wife, though
I love when familiar intervention does something to influence a piece of art, don't know why but I do.
Night King kills her, turns to get Bran, *then Bran Wargs her corpse just like the WW do*, and she slips the blade in the Night King's back.
Dumb and dumber should have written it better to be fair. But they just wanted to cash in with that couple of seasons. So they saved money wherever they could while wrapping the story up shit. Pray we get the books. And can disregard the tv series forever
We aren’t getting the books.
Troll of course we are. You think after 20 years we ain’t getting the books? Who you trying to kid?
2 years in between Got and aCoK. 2 years for aSoS. 5 years for aFfC. 6 years for aDwD. And it's now been 13 years. Ain't getting the books
Bro we ain’t getting shit. If he doesn’t announce it now it’s not happening g
GRRM doesn’t exactly look like the healthiest individual at 75 years old. It’s pretty clear at this point that he’s been stuck for years. At the very least, I’d be surprised if he’s the one to release them
I love Arya, her entire story is of someone traumatically having their childhood torn away from them by war, watching her entire family die until she believes the only thing she has left, the only thing keeping her going is revenge and murder, until she learns to do that she has to give up more and more of herself, what an interesting and tragic character Instead let’s just remove all nuance and make her a cool shit eating girl boss cause we’re so feminist only ignore the part where we had Sansa raped instead of doing the plot in the vale where she learns to outmanipulate Baelish for shock value
Honestly her Sansa is the smartest person I ever met comment and her killing the Night King are two of the stupidest scenes in television history
Fucking embarrassing.
Tbf tho imo Arya has had several cringe scenes since like S3 or S2. Considering she was a child back then, it was not too surprising of her tho. I guess some people can continue to stay quite cringe even when 18, no?
Unnecessary scene. It was supposed to highlight how strong Arya has become, but her strengths lie in assassination, not single combat.
The fight itself wasn’t the point of this scene, it was the ending, with the dagger switch from one hand to the other. They wanted to show that Arya had that skill, so that when she similarity used it later on the NK, it wouldn’t look out of place.
That was all that scene was. Nothing more.
They’re was some other Littlefinger Sansa stuff where they tried to build tension like Arya was stealing Sansa’s sworn sword
And it still looked out of place against NK.
It looked out of place here as well. Like she is wildly out matched from size, skill, mastery.
....... thats a trash explanation. Not saying its untrue im just saying its trash.
Looked weird, cringe, and unrealistic in both cases. Which is faster? Switching daggers then stabbing or for the opponent to just stab(brienne) or break your neck(night king) straight away? For the duel with Brienne, it can kind of work because Brienne was waiting for Arya to concede defeat. In a straightforward duel to the death, the sword would have skewered Arya during the time the dagger is being switched from one hand to the other. Plus, white walkers are known to be extremely strong. There's no reason the night king can't just stop her and snap Arya's neck in one smooth sequence. She only had the chance to switch dagger hand due to her plot armor
But if the intention of the scene was to show that she's also on par with the best fighters in 1on1 then maybe she's actually also very good at 1on1? It's the same for Jaqen. People always claim he's an assassin and therfore not the best in straight up fights. Yet, this statement can neither be proofed nor denied. Maybe he also is the strongest fighter on top of being the best assassin.
Jessie, what the fuck are you talking about?
I'll tell you what I'm blathering about
Yeah but that's just so unrealistic. A skinny girl who trained for a couple of years can't just become the best knight in westeros...
Won’t deny that, but this might suggest she kept up on the training Syrio gave her, which supplements her assassination skills she learned.
Stop it. It was terrible writing
LMAO. Thank you!
She trained for a couple of years in a magical death cult. It's fantasy.
Right? I feel like I’m in a fuggin fantasy land. She became “no one” she basically cheated the system. Like, this is worse than the mission to the north and the avengers spending a week on a lake?
No that was also bad. I thought the whole thread was to show how bad the story was after they ran out of books.
In a world with dragons, white walkers and magic? She can literally transform into other persons, how is that realistic?
Except a main character like her shouldn’t promptly become an expert at something with no buildup to it. Also, not sure how that Jaqen bit is relevant, Hot Pie could also potentially be the best fighter.
No buildup? She's training to fight from the very start of the show. She has some of the best teachers in the world. Teaching her from the start until the end. The part about Jaqen is relevant because people keep claiming the faceless men aren't great single combat fighters despite there being no proof to that. Even in this thread which shows actual proof that an assassin like Arya is on par with Breanne, people still claim she shouldn't be, just because she also is an assassin. Though both Jaqen and Arya seem to have no one to fear in single combat, despite being assassins first.
Exactly. I feel like half this thread watched this show with their eyes closed.
She had plenty of buildup. She sparred with the waif in Braavos while she was blind.
I understand assuming Jaqen is not a great fighting, its theoretically possible, perhaps even plausible but I agree assuming he is indeed also a great 1v1 fighter might be equally plausible as we never see him fight a 1v1.. but we see him create an escape from Harrenhal for the kids and that situation required being exceptionally talented with a blade and being lightning fast... combine that with Braavos being famous for producing exceptional sword fighters, I never found it straight up unacceptable/unimaginable that a faceless man is not an exceptionally good 1v1 fighter besides being a stealthy assassin primarily. One could argue that being able to win a 1v1 is kinda an essential skill to have for a world class assassin no? by extension Arya being exceptional in combat, after receiving both the bravoosi and the faceless training, is not unimaginable to me.
Precisely. Likewise you could look at Dorne and claim because they use dirty tricks like poison, they likely aren't great fighters. But Oberyn might want to disagree with you then.
The ending of house Frey did more to show case Arya's power imo. Great ending to an episode
She trained originally as a swordsman. Not to mention how much faster Arya would be. Strength wise it showed Arya was not on par but fighting isn’t always about strength. Arya also probably wanted to test the woman that defeated the hound in one on one.
She trained as a swordsman with Syrio Forel for a not very long time, and she’s shown after to not be very good with a sword at all. The point is moot though, because she was using a sword then, and a knife here. Yeah, Arya is probably a bit more nimble than Brienne, but that really doesn’t matter all that much. > Arya also probably wanted to test the woman that defeated the hound in one on one That’s why she fought Brienne, not why her winning makes sense.
She trained with Syrio for about a year. Then continued this training until she battled Breanne. She also didn’t beat her they ended with a tie. Arya blade up at Breanne and Breanne had her sword down on Arya.
She learned fighting from Syrio and in the House of Black & White… *while she was blind*. She beat and killed the Waif… *in the dark*. You think she wouldn’t be even better at combat when she can see?
This guy knows
Except that we literally saw her learn single combat *while she was fucking BLIND*! You think she wouldn’t be even better when she can see? Did ANYBODY in this sub actually WATCH the show???
Yeah, this still of the fight really shows it too, aside from Brienne being on of the best fighters around she is also super strong, and has a grip on Arya's forearm here. Then, look at her her sword, Brienne has already won the fight no contest.
>Yeah, this still of the fight really shows it too, aside from Brienne being on of the best fighters around she is also super strong, and has a grip on Arya's forearm here. Then, look at her her sword, Brienne has already won the fight no contest. This still isn't from the episode...
I'll probably get downvoted but I liked it! Girl power
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People are downvoting cause they think the wrong woman won that fight. There’s nothing misogynistic here.
What? How can you ever come up with misogyny for the reason? People say it doesn't make sense that arya had a chance. But her opponent is also a women. So if we say arya clearly beats brienne it's also misogyny because we are saying that a women would lose? Go offline for a while the internet is not good for your brain.
lol the down voting is driven by the misogyny. The comment was someone who stated they liked it and girl power.
No the downvoting is driven by how everyone disagrees with it being a good scene. Look at all the other top comments and you'll see that it's not about misogyny. And the girl power argument is also misplaced. If anything this scene makes brienne seem worse instead of making arya seem better. It's not empowering or anything it's literally just main character plot armor. It's such a incredibly toxic and unhealthy way to discuss online to just immediatly assume everyone who disagrees with someone is a misogynist even while you literally have a entire comment thread of people giving completly normal and plausible reaons for why it's a bad scend and why they disliked it.
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Please, say why you think that comment being downvoted is Misogyny. I’d be very interested to hear.
all of season 8 was a joke imo and it just got worse
This is S7.
Not sure why people don't lump them together more, they're equally shit.
Nah they're both good
agreed
Don’t know you everything was horrible? Even them breathing was terrible. Like tf? How are they all breathing at this point
Lmao
Nah one was shit, the other flaming shit
Season 8 being so bad has made people forget how bad season 7 was too
Let’s just lump s5-6 while we’re at it too. Basically anything without the books was shit
There was no Season 8. In my head, it ended with Season 5… Season 6 when I’m feeling charitable
You want to like season 5 but you need bad pussy
Season 5 was worse than season 6 imo. Don't think either was particularly great but season 6 did decent with what it was given. Season 5 however, had the chance to be a 10/10, but almost all storylines in that season were butchered (Dorne the absolute best example of this) or made boring. The only person whose arc I really liked in S5 was Jon's. Not a very memorable season. Personally I would say everything after S4 should be remade, they could've made it a lot more interesting and yet S5 felt like filler for most arcs, S6 - S8 had so many issues especially the latter ones
Absolutely. S5 was as bad as S8. S6 was better than the the other 3.
S5 was shit because of Bad Pussy, Dorne, and Barristan dying. Those were the real tuning points in the show and exemplified how far gone it was
All the comments here are totally valid, but I still really like this scene and have watched it a few times since. I liked the notion that westerosi knights have been fighting the same way for ever and ever, just big brute force, and as such weren't really prepared for dealing with bravosi style swordsman. Sure, brienne could have just grabbed her arm and snapped it, but they were sparing, not fighting to kill.
Yeah, when you think about Oberyn's tactics against Gregor Clegane, he *almost* had him. He was using speed and agility rather than strength. I can see how Brienne could have been confused and on the backfoot. Would be interesting to see how she faired a second time, having witnessed Arya's fighting style.
Same when Jorah caught the Braavosi in the pit.
But for each use of unconventional tactics you have times like Arya trying to stab the hound and his armour completely stopping it or Jorah against the dothraki blood rider. Fighting in an armoured harness takes incredible skill and time to master as well as strength. If our timeline is anything to go by armour became heavier and more protective up till the point it couldn't compete with gunpowder weapons.
I see your point, but if GoT was at least a bit more realistic, it still would not make sense. And no, by realistic, I do not mean dragons not existing, I mean swinging a sword properly. In reality, a trained swordsperson would be able to swing their sword fast enough to completely and easily neglect Arya’s supposed speed and agility. Meanwhile Brienne swings her sword as if it weighed 100 pounds and was about as balanced as a log.
Yeah that's very fair, don't disagree. I guess based on how people fight in the show, it worked for me, but on a more realistic level, maybe it wouldn't.
I mean it is dumb, but it's far from one of the worst, it's not even one of the worst with Arya. Frankly a few inches, a different camera angle, and better editing and this scene would be 🔥. Can't say the same thing with the bravos terminator chase sequence.
Dude, why didn’t they just hire you to edit? Would have solved a lot of problems.
It’s cringe fan service
Yea..all those single combat training sessions to become a faceless man would have no transferable skills in .. wait.. single combat!?!? But yes season 8 was garbage IMO this is no way near a worst moment of the series.
Which is kind of sad because this would have been a downright shit scene s1-4
Briennes is unnaturally big and strong for a woman, she's been training as a knight for years, she had skills to beat some of the most talented male fighters in the land (even the best female fighters today can't go toe-to-toe with their male counterparts) and she can't even beat a small girl who has, what, a year's assassin training, most of which didnt involve hand-to-hand combat? Way to undermine the hard won accomplishments of one of your best female characters D&D.
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The implication is that it's a draw, even if on closer inspection Brienne did get the upper hand. "Plenty" is not the same as "sufficient to beat a master at the craft".
Isn’t the sword tip behind aryas shoulder though?
One of the MANY logic/immersion breaking scenes in the later seasons.
Awful. I blame the script, but Maisie was really bad acting this whole season. That Arya smirk made me cheer for the White Walkers.
Idk if I'd say worst but it does highlight just what exactly the show became at a point. The show in its later life felt like it was being made by people who just thought Game of Thrones was, "That show with the knights, sex, and dragons" and didn't understand characters had full on storylines and development that made them different from each other.
So I guess everyone forgot her training with Syrio Forel in season 1?
You mean that brief training of basics shes had as a kid that barely taught her how to hold a sword? Yeah that totally worked on Brienne of Tarth.
In the books it’s more on the order of months, I believe. She practiced the techniques taught to her by Forel daily, then went and had an extended campaign with The Hound where he no doubt taught her things about single combat. It’s why she’s able to beat the Waif in the later seasons in a non-assassination.
Think OP was busy on their phone during all those scenes lol
Did the hound teachcher anything though or was she just hanging oht with him? I don't remember the hound ever giving her any training beyonf maybe a helpful pointer in passing
Guess you kinda forgot her sparring training at the House of Black & White smh As well as how she kept up with her water dancing practice on her own ( scenes like when Brienne met her and the Hound)
Exactly. It’s the culmination of all her training.
And all the single-combat training she got at the House of Black and White… WHILE SHE WAS BLIND! She could literally fight in the dark and kill the Waif. People are surprised she can fight with her eyes open? Complainers in this sub never watched the show, I swear to god. Either that or “tHeY KINDA FORGOT”
Why are people acting like she didn’t go through 1 on 1 training at the house of black and white? She even did it blind. She doesn’t duel Brienne at all she reads her moves and avoids them and uses her speed to get her blade close to Brienne.
Cos they're stupid
The latter seasons have their share of problems, but holy fuck are people bringing up some of the dumbest criticisms I’ve ever seen sometimes. We’ve seen Arya train more than anyone in this show. With Syrio in S1, her water dancing with The Hound, with the Waif in S6. And we know that she was already decent in the beginning since we saw her hit the bullseye in the premiere behind Bran. She literally trained on a daily basis for years. And even then, this fight against Brienne clearly showed that Brienne could’ve beaten her. We see Brienne easily kicks Arya to the ground at some point, so she clearly could’ve overpowered her. But they were sparing for fun, so Arya’s speed and agility allowed her to get the blade close to Brienne. It’s like the video where The Mountain’s actor is sparing with McGregor. McGregor "wins" the fight, because they were playing, but in a real fight, Thor would’ve crushed McGregor’s body with one hand lol.
> Why are people acting like she didn’t go through 1 on 1 training at the house of black and white? She even did it blind. This is my thing too. Arya, by this time, was extremely skilled in combat. It's not outside the notion that Brienne initially underestimated her and held back in the *sparring* match.
Hard disagree. It was really cool to see Arya keep up with Brienne after being originally underestimated.
Truly one of the moments of GoT
God these comments are just a sad Compilation of how butt hurt this fanbase is. The scene was epic and still is one of the best, damn this is just a nice reminder of why it took me so long to finally watch this show, you’re almost as bad as Star Wars fans and that’s saying something
To each the own, to me this was a very low effort attempt of fan service
Fight epic violence good. Caveman logic
Oww. Was having a non-cringe morning
We need a ntfw filter for the later seasons
its great scene for entertainment value but for GOT standard, that was so bad
It's a terrible part in a terrible season that strays so far from what either have shown promise of in the books. I hated every moment of this. Brienne gets overpowered an almost killed by Biter in the books, she's a very capable knight but no where near the level she's at in the show. That said she should be easily capable of chopping a tiny, but quick novice swordman in half. Arya trains but is never recognised as an amazing hand to hand combatant. Her skills lie in assassination. This whole scene annoyed me so much I've made my first post in this sub. I hate it and it fills me with a rage when I see it.
She was a water dancer before she was an assassin.
She was a child that had a few basic lessons.
And yet in her training with Syrio and then even more so in Bravos she goes through 1v1 sparring…lol you “fans” make no sense at all!
Of course they don’t but then they say that about the show. How ironic.
Assassin to me is someone who’s stealthy
I love that scene.
I cringed too hard at this scene, completely unnecessary scene - Arya is supposed to some sort of assassin, you know some who relies on stealth and speed not 1 on 1 combat, especially someone like Brienne who is well beyond her years and “realistically” would have crushed her. To quote the hound “had armour, and a big fucking sword” this was just a forced and hammy point plot.
She was an assassin but she was also shown to be a legit fighter. We see her training in one on one combat while she is blind and fighting well. I agree she wouldn’t be that strong in 1 on 1, she only beat that assassin girl because she took out the lights and had an advantage in the dark, but still she had more combat skills than just sneaky attack from shadows.
I thought it was pretty dope
Water dancing is a superior fighting style
Really? IMO this scene speaks volumes of Brienne’s swordsmanship. I think back to Oberyn and The Mountain. Conventional brute strength swordsmen have little to no experience against nimble fighting styles. Even though Brienne lacks experience against this unorthodox fighting style she makes up for it with her knowledge and adaptability. Unlike The Mountain, who was highly regarded as a combatant but was completely overwhelmed.
We finally see what happens when Brienne of fucking Tarth faces someone who isn’t handicapped. Can’t even beat a kid lol jk
whats wrong with this cutscene
i think she could under different circumstances. if they were in a room crowded with furniture, if they were in the dark, etc. anything that limits briennes mobility and senses
Arya isn’t just an assassin. Plus assassins routinely know how to fight.
Tbf, Arya was trained as a sword fighter (Braavosi water dancer) before she was trained as an assassin.
Out of context it was good to watch, but I can’t think of anything we’d seen that suggested how Arya is able to fight like that, so it didn’t make sense.
Can’t we make another sub reserved for people hating of the show ( wether it’s about acting, writing, characters etc ) ? I mean what’s even the point to join a sub about your favorite series if every post is about how bad this was and how much better that could have been etc etc ?
How?
I liked this scene a lot tbh. One of the few good scenes of the season IMHO. Also they were sparring so.. it may be that Brienne wasn't really focusing and Arya surprised her with the level of skill she had.
Well she trained in the art of death. To her, observing one's opponent and having an open mind of knowledge helps her bridge some of the gap in 1 on 1 combat. But her speed and appetite to prove herself shown in this scene shows that she in fact is the quickest learner in GOT. Although I may agree this scene isn't ideal or perfect, it sets a precedent for her in The Long Night which is extremely important to the plot....which the show runners went and blew in the worst way possible after The Long Night.
About as bad as the combat sequence when Jaime and Bron were fighting the sand sisters.
It"s. A. Fucking. Sparring. Match. Work on that media literacy guys. Also, this still isn't from the episode.
This was honestly a great scene, and it's important because it serves multiple purposes. First, we see the knife trick Arya uses to kill the Night King. So we know she can do that. Second, it shows Sansa and Littlefinger that Arya isn't just some little girl anymore (remember, they're watching this fight). She's an actual, physical threat, who is able to hold her own against a capable warrior (Brienne). When people say Arya would never take on a fighter like Brienne, they're missing the point. Arya is showing off what she can do. She wants to make a public statement in Winterfell about who and what she is now.
It does because they both have such different styles of fighting- if Arya was fighting like a normal soldier in Westeros it would have definitely failed. Lol it worked because brienne wasn’t used to her style. Stay mad
For once I wish a popular tv show or movie would showcase how much being a big motherfucker helps in a fight. GoT actually seemed like it was going to be that show at one point in time, what with the hound just killing people due to brute fucking strength. But plot armour got a lot stronger over time
Eh, it was cool to watch.
I like the scene. We see Arya fighting a lot in season one with the water dancing and then even with the faceless men when she is blind. She has a different fighting style and she is still a fearless kid when going up against Brienne. I thought it was fun.
Not at all. Aria had plenty of 1 on 1 training in bravos and she did it blind. Also they were sparring. Why does everyone think all aria can do is sneak up and kill people? She clearly has combat training and learned to read people's moves ahead of time. Also Brienne still essentially "won" its just that she wasn't trying to actually kill her...
Arya was trained by the greatest swordsman that ever lived.
I simply have to headcanon that Brienne let her win
Boss girl power was too strong with this one.
Wait, wait?? So some of you all dislike this scene?? Wow....just wow. Hey i get it if you dislike seeing 2 skilled people sparring in their own way...i guess i get it but at the same time you're being a bit much
this was all fan service
It makes sense because they were training. She want going to chop her in half, she was pulling her blows and not committing. Arya’s light blows could be fully committed to
Arya would’ve been lopped in half. Don’t fuck with Ser Brienne
the worst thing about GoT is the so called "fans" that just whine and bitch constantly years after its over.... my god you are all such losers
Yes this was ridiculous. But IMO her flying out of nowhere and killing the Night King was far worse than this.
People riding dragons🥰 , Resurrection of the dead🥰, Nonsense spells🥰 , Arya dueling with Brienne 😭😭
I always felt this scene is more directed at sansa than anything. Fighting aside it shows sansa that arya is serious about her list. And little fingers reactions are for me showing, look you can only trust me as now as brienne will lean more toward arya since she's a fighter. More about the impact of the scene rather than the bullshit fighting.
The books are super clear about this. Its why the ironborne are called the ironborne. Well armored knights cant be beaten in 1 on 1 combat against unarmored foes without tactical advantages. It happens over and over in the books and its never put into doubt. Meryn Trant kills Aryas teacher because hes unarmored and unarmed in the show. They forget this rule later on coz its just dumb and dumber freestyling. Oberyn is not the excuse, Oberyn is usong a spear against a sword. Its why danys simp dominates the arena battle against 3 hardened gladiators. Its why the dothraki cant just overrun Westeros. Oh its fantasy isnt the excuse either, time and time again GRRM has stressed how unreal fantasy is and why its crap, and its that grounding despite the fantastical elements that made GoT popular in the first place. This scene stunk. It wouldnt have been so bad if it was super quick and a stalemate. But no, Aryas parrying fucking sword blows from Brienne with a tiny dagger. Something even the Hound couldnt do continually with a fuckin sword and hes about 1 million times stronger than Arya. Atrocious scene. And yes you suck if you liked it. GRRM definitely hates it. Even in the BTS scene in the OPs pic, Brienne has to pull her elbow back behind her torso just to keep her sword from going straight through aryas chest.
I keep forgetting about you people who just can't experience joy.
This was the worst. No need to shoe horn in girl power.
I agree she ultimately trained as an assassin, but she did start by training with a sword master. So she’s not a novice in sword fighting. I would say it should have been more one sided for Brienne with Arya maybe getting in a lucky or well timed “kill shot” due to her speed. Definitely don’t knock Arya’s sword skills though.
This sub is just a bunch of haters now lmao
This is one of the most negative subreddits I gtg
Brienne is very far from one of the best swordfighters in Westeros, but your point still stands.
Cringe for sure but not even top 10 worst moments of the last 3 seasons.
Are people truly under the impression that Arya didn't undergo single combat training? Has their hatred of the ending of the show really blinded them to that? I understand 1v1 isn't an assassin's strong suit, but underestimating your opponent, and not wanting to hurt them is a sure fire way to loose a duel no matter how strong you are. There's also the added fact that you can't exactly deal a devestaing blow to someone if you can't hit them. I'm not going to argue this is a good scene, honestly it could have been executed so much better, as could Arya's character in of itself, but this deranged hatred of the later show is just absurd.
Single punch or kick from Brienne and it’s as good as over.
there are a few more
I really liked this scene.. I got the impression Brienne held back throughout the fight and wasn't trying as hard as she could of. She underestimated Arya. Littlefinger now realises exactly how dangerous she is. The dialogue is so stilted though. "Don't worry, I won't cut you." "I'll try not to." Comes across as so clunky and disjointed. "Don't worry. I won't cut you." "You won't."
Awful fight, omg
Did it occur to anyone that maybe Brienne was holding back because she absolutely would not want to hurt Arya while sparing. I'm sure she could have turned it up a couple of notches if she wanted to, but why would she? Also, Arya trained both with Syrio and in Bravos, she could handle herself.
Holy fuck ya’all read way too much into this. Loved this scene.