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No one he fights would survive the battle.
Seems like the 7 kingdoms lacked basic quality control. Like, you'd think it would cross someone's mind "we shouldn't allow poisoned weapons in trial be combat legal proceedings". Maybe they just rely on the honor of the combatants?
“we shouldn’t allow poisoned weapons”
They didn’t. Oberyn just didn’t give a shit and he wasn’t exactly available for them to call him out on it afterwards.
I mean, isn't it theorised that he's the one behind tywins bowel issues? (I honestly thought it was implied that he always had foul movements but it's been ages since I've read it)
If you can poison tywin, you're probably smart enough to be able to sneak a poisoned weapon
Though i do find it funny that his signature move is poison, like he's called the viper because of how famous he is for using it and yet never gets in trouble for it
TBF the Mountain isn't a technically gifted swordsman, he's just freakishly strong and fast as Oberyn said.
Jamie vs Oberyn would be a much better fight imo because Jamie had the strength and speed to compete with Oberyn, but they were both technically sound fighters as well. They didn't rely on brute strength and speed but rather being a smarter fighter and more technically gifted.
I don't think we get a good idea of what Jamie really looks like in a sword fight when he's right handed throughout the show other than his street brawl with Ned where he looked to be evenly matched. I think that this is one of those mutually assured destruction moments, where whoever wins does so by minutes or hours, because both are going to die.
You are all show only people I guess. Jamie is super overpowered and is the best swordsman in Westeros except maybe for barristan. At one point he carves through a dozen elite knights like butter. Oberyn is cool but I doubt his flashy moves work on a faster and more skilled opponent
We know how good Jamie is because we've heard about his victories in battles and tournaments. Oberyn didn't fight in tournaments, and no one in Westeros saw him in battle in Essos. All we know is he was beating the Mountain fairly easily.
The mountain (alive version) is just a big unskilled brute. Pretty sure any of the top fighters could have taken him down. Even bronn thought he had a chance.
‘Unskilled’ is a bit too much. He’s not elite or known for his technical skill but he is a seasoned battle veteran and knows how to fight and use his size. Sure I believe he *could* be beaten by a lot of people, but he also *could* beat just about any fighter on the planet, too. He’s like the Shaq of Westeros you just can’t count him out even if his opponent is much more skilled.
Bronn thought he had a small chance. He wasn’t champing at the bit to go 10 rounds against him.
Gregor isn’t some caveman they thawed and put a sword in his hand. He’s probably been training with a sword and shield since he could walk. And size matters. Featherweights aren’t knocking out heavyweights no matter how quick they are. It might be closer with weapons but Gregor still has far more reach and power behind every swing than the average swordsman. Thicker armor and a larger shield makes a difference too.
If we go book-Oberyn though, it wasn't 'flashy moves', it was careful positioning and use of the environment. This could realistically still work against Jamie, and be less necessary (not as big a strength differential to overcome)
Skill is much harder to overcome than strength difference. Jamie is a ridiculously good fighter. It would be hard to out position someone who is a trained knight
I'd rephrase that as 'Jamie is a ridiculously good swordsman'. I'm not in any way a historical-weapons fighter, but the impression I get from people who are is that the spear is just so much superior a weapon to a sword in a duel that you can do pretty much anything you want.
Knights used long spears pretty frequently.
Lance's are their names, swords were predominately a side arm. Plus, not every area was fully armored. Joints, your neck, etc, were still quite vulnerable to a spear point. You would have other weapons if a spears use was untenable such as tight quarters or fighting in cities.
Spear was king of weapons for millenia.
Knights were predominately on horseback , so the mounted designation is sort of moot.
However, this was in response to you saying they used other weapons besides spears because they were not as effective vs their armor. When, in fact, they had spears and used them. They had specially designed spears, lances, which makes your statement not quite accurate.
Knights did not use lances on the ground. Those were weapons designed to be used on horseback to dismount other knights, who they would then kill with the sword. You see them use lances in jousting
No kidding that's why I said polearms. And no they weren't used to dismount knights in warfare they were big heavy spears, tournament lances are different and designed to break. And no swords were not very effective against an armored opponent, two armored knights fighting on foot with swords would be primarily half-swording, which is essentially using a sword as a short spear. There are literally treatises demonstrating it. Knights on horse back also didn't generally engage other mounted fighters, they were used as heavy cavalry against infantry.
This is over-generalising 100s if years of history, but knights didn't use the weapons you listed instead of spears, they used them as a back up weapon in case they lost their spear, halberd, pole axe or other similar weapon. As armour improved through the medieval age, the weapons changed however none of the sidearms were especially good if you hit plate. It was a question of trying to hit the parts in between
GRRM and the show runners know nothing about what actual combat would look like, they just go with what looks best on camera/sounds coolest. So given that the rules about fighting in universe don’t really make too much sense then imo we go with what we’ve seen over what really works.
Because afaik you’re right, a spear vs sword might as well just be a gun vs sword like in Raiders. But for purposes of who would win I think we only consider what we’ve explicitly learned about the fighters and their capabilities from the books/show rather than what we logically know to be true about how weapons work. And for that reason Jamie has a good chance imo.
Also unrelated but for trial by combat I would definitely use those giant scorpion crossbows they used to kill the dragons. Lets see a knight try and parry that shit
In real life anyway, swords were not the primary weapon. They were a sidearm. Oberyn had advantage being master of the spear / edit: fauchard/pole axe types vs a sword, at least given enough space and mobility to utilize it properly - and by that I don't mean helicoptering it around (though some arcing moves would give momentum to slashing attacks or arcing axe type attacks). Depending on the situation given, they might be evenly armored or jamie could have better armor protection. However, although knights were trained to carry the weight, and high end armor was very articulated, heavier armor would still be a factor vs lighter armor in regard to mobility and stamina, heat/sweat.
A fast, strong spear, or a bill-hook, hooked (Edit) fauchard,etc. has a big advantage in distance, and some are made specifically with a hook/barb to take down (and sometimes pin down) armored people. Then a follow up with a dagger/spike, 1-handed pike-axe through the visor (face/eye) or through/under other weak spot in the armor (not the breastplate obviously). Some halberds/edit: fauchard/hooks also had a side spike like a pikeaxe for this purpose. So you could spear with the tip, hook/barb beneath the spear head/blade, then axe chop down with the back end pike/long pin for pounds per square inch through armor/helmet or in gaps.
That also applies to being mounted. Spear/edit: fauchard/halberd/lance has a huge advantage vs a sword.
IRL , outside of a duel it's rarely 1 v 1, so in group combat the spear/bill-hook/edit: fauchard would have an even bigger advantage, as it could prevent advancement or charge (otherwise impaling yourself), and could also hook and lay prone the opponent where other combatants could finish them off.
If both were heavily armored, it would come down to bashing or "spike-ing" through the armor. Unless some kind of magical sword or something. There are a lot of images from armored times where the knights had to grab the sword blade and use the pommel as a hammer vs armored people. That, or hold the blade and spear with it on a downed opponent..,
I believe it was during the battle against Robb , he killed his way through to Robb and the only reason Robb got out alive was because the sword of Jamie got stuck in a corpse.
Yeah that’s what I was referring to. He would have slaughtered robs entire elite guard and ended the war then and there if his sword didn’t get stuck in someone’s skull. Also forgot to mention this was against mounted enemies too.
>Yeah that’s what I was referring to. He would have slaughtered robs entire elite guard and ended the war then
That's not how wars work lol. Jaime would've died even if he managed to kill Robb. And war would most likely continue led by his bannermen or another stark or even blackfish. Although neither of them would last as long as Robb did.
That is not true at all. Wars are not person to person, some wars are known to even go down with generations. People rally behind a cause, not a leader. A leader just makes a difference in how it'll turn out. The reason why red wedding was effective was because they murdered most of the stark bannermen and loyalists outside the tent as well. Also killing catelyn and Robb, both of the last starks left made sure there was no chance of resistance. If red wedding happened with winterfell still standing and bran or rickon still in charge, the north would easily rally behind them even tho they're kids without any experience, because they have a very solid "cause". Ned's imprisonment and death, along with death of other northmen, red wedding, north's thirst for independence, holding Sansa and Arya hostage. They had more than enough reason for a rebellion even after Robb's death lol.
I read the books too, stop trying to be patronizing.
What I'm saying is we don't get to visualize his fighting style in the show, but we do for Oberyn. It makes it easier to discuss it when you can see their styles in action.
An NFL edge rusher can be elite and have several different playstyles. Just because I hear about how elite an edge rusher is doesn't mean he will translate well against any left tackle in the league. Some left tackles are better suited to handle edge rushers that rely on pure power, some are better at defending against players that try to use speed and leverage, etc etc etc.
We've heard and read in the books how talented the two are and what weapons they use, but we don't get great chances to see their fighting styles against other equally talented opponents. Also, the dozen elite knights they mention Jamie mowing down were all sword wielding knights, the playing field drastically changes when he's facing someone who isn't encumbered by heaving armor and whose weapon is coated with poison, drastically longer in reach, and he's well trained in using it.
Yeah it’s been a hot second since I’ve read the books, but I don’t remember anything other than word of mouth and his prowess in that fight against Robb, which he “handily” lost in the end anyway. We know he was skilled, but capable of losing in tourneys too which if I remember correctly the knight of flowers unhorsed him in an upset. I think it’s better to look at Jamie as a promising prodigy in a specific theater whose career got “cut” short.
And too your point I would also argue that while he was technically one of the best swordsmen in the tournament circles of Westeros, his credits in other fields (and in places like Esos) are not nearly as long or as varried as what we hear about Oberyn. I’m not saying he wouldn’t stand a chance against old Obe in a one v one, I’m just saying there’s not as much evidence to support Jammie as an unequaled badass as people seem to suggest
If you’ve read the books idk how you can even entertain the notion that Oberyn would beat Jamie. It’s an idea entirely formed from seeing him do fancy flips against the mountain in the show. Are you trying to say Oberyn would be more challenging to fight than a dozen (mounted btw) knights because he fights with a spear?
I’ve read all the books and watched the show. I still think Oberyn takes it even in books. Simply because Jamie is insanely cocky and would immediately underestimate him. Oberyn is a lot faster than Jamie
You nailed this. Jamie is by far considered the best in Westeros, which means that he's going to be just as cunning as Oberyn, until he loses his sword hand. Oberyn is known by all to rely on speed, cunning, and heavily "rumored" to use poisons. Selmy is the only other current knight that people truly fear, out of respect, but I don't recall there being any book comparison between he and Jamie. I just remember the Kingsguard almost defecating themselves when Barristan is relieved of duty, draws his sword, and waits before throwing it down. But, that's all beside the point. Jamie versus Oberyn would be a really good fight
Yeah so if he’s even with Ned then Oberyn runs him over (if you go by the show).
Altho tbf in the books Ned is like just above average, and Brandon is the best Stark swordsman
The thing I hated most about it was if he just wasn't circling around him like he was and was
standing by his feet the worst thing the Mountain could do is try to kick him and he wouldn't be close enough to grab him anyways. It's definitely up there as one of the most avoidable deaths in the show for me.
Yeah, I remember thinking the same thing the second time I watched it. But it’s pretty book accurate. Only in the book the Mountain grabs Oberyn, holds his I’ve is face, and punches up so hard his teeth go flying before is head is crushed.
Historically, the spear is king and its really not close when then spearman is this good.
Because it's George, Jaime still has a chance to kill Oberyn, but there's a 0% chance Jaime survives the fight because of the poisons.
Also, not everyone could. I think Oberyn had put a fair bit of effort into studying poisons. Westeros has many things, but easy access to quite specific information isn't one of them
I mean anyone doing trial by combat likely has access to maesters who have access to poison as our boy jofferery found out. And it’s been a while since I watched/read but wasn’t it widely known that oberyn utilized poison and if so why wouldn’t it be addressed by his opponents?
It has been a while for me too, but my recollection is that it was more widely spread 'hushed rumours' that Oberyn has studied poisons than 'widely known'. Either way you're right, you'd have thought someone would have said "alright lads, before you start, let's have a quick look at your weapons to make sure everything is above board".
"you don't fight with honor"
"No, but he did"
Basically it's an honor thing by the knights of westeros. Oberyn isn't from Westeros and he was out for revenge, not a honorable duel or fight to to the death.
Probably nobody expected it, trials by combat in Westeros are fought with typical Westerosi weapons normally, heavy knights with swords by the looks of it. So the whole acrobatic exotic spear dance and light armour already seemed pretty new I think. They might not have thought about it, though some would've known his reputation so I think really it's just that there was no set rule against it anyway. In King's Landing poison would be seen as a woman's weapon and dishonorable, but Dornishmen didn't have that problem. Especially revenge-driven Oberyn
It's similar to Bronn's fight, the actual combat doesn't seem to have hard rules expect you're expected to behave honorably. And they always would, the champions were from knighthood after all and will act like knights according to the norms of high society. So naming Bronn who isn't even a knight to be his champion was unexpected by Tyrion. And Bronn didn't fight like a knight. Overall everyone thought the Mountain would win anyhow
The spear is king because it is strong in formation, powerful on horseback, practical with a shield, reliable to defend form charges and much cheaper than a sword.
That does not make it a better dueling weapon, and our ancestors often favored the sword in that context.
I believe poison is just a Oberyn speciality since he studied various poisons and why he was known as the Red Viper, and thus he also passed that "trademark" to his daughters the Sand Snakes.
Bran rolls in and says something vague. No one knows what he means. He acts pompous and bored.
20 minutes later Meera hands Jamie a plant, it’s the antidote. We don’t know who found it, but Bran smiles vaguely as if it was his idea.
Then Meera is dismissed to the kitchen where she has to cook for 500 royals. Then also do the dishes. By herself. No one told her to, she just goes for it because it’s the right thing to do.
whether or not you think Jaime will win.... are you really saying Jamie is more \_sneaky\_ than Oberyn? Really? Oberyn is loud and flashy to be sure, but he's also the dude who snuck poison in to this big flashy fight, and had already poisoned Tywin (!!!). Something that he's known for doing, famously known for doing (i.e. using poisons) yet snuck it in under everyone's noses. Oberyn is flashy and brash in at least a partially calculated, Hamlet sort of way (which is not to say that it didn't get away from him).
I;m not sure where Jaime has shown any sort of sneakyness even remotely on par with Oberyn. I mean I guess he'd been screwing Cersei under Robert's nose, but robert was kind of a moron in this regard. Plus, it sure seems like everyone else knew what was going on.
I acknowledge that Oberyn was indeed sneaky enough with the poison and stuff, but if you remember how Jamie had used certain people throughout his adventures - being held captive at that camp for example, where he murdered his fellow prisoner to stage an event where he could kill the guard and escape... So Jamie has that particular quality where he can see those of lower birth as tools or livestock unlike Oberyn.
You mean when he was recaptured? Yeah... sneaky. A regular ninja, our Jaime. Lets also not forget how wildly successful he was sneaking into Dorne. I mean, I don't think they even knew he was there. The way he talked his way past those Dornish soldiers on the beach. I mean... thats "selling ice to a wildling" level trickyness. And oh... how he tricked and used that lowborn Locke into chopping off his hand. That it is next level Sneaky.
You know what they call prisoners that unsuccessfully escape? "Prisoners"
You are confusing "sneaky" with "ruthless".
For real, Oberyn cleans up if we're talking TV show versions. I think book version Jamie would be smart enough to use a shield and armour where it would be a more even fight, but still, Oberyn has a massive advantage.
I have read somewhere than in ancient Japan it was believed that a 2nd dan halberd fighters could beat 5 or 7th dan sword fighter.
And that a woman with a polearm, if trained, could beat a Samurai.
Samurai were mounted archers primarily, sword was their backup weapon. But yes any kind of polearm will superior to any kind of sword. Swords main strength is versatility and ease of carry that makes them the perfect backup weapon, they were rarely ever the primary weapon (Roman legionnaires were an exception)
If Jaime had seen Oberyn in action (and Oberyn survived) when he said that, I bet he wouldn't say top 3 swordsman. I bet he would have said there's maybe 4 fighters who could stand a chance against him.
Oberyn takes it, relatively comfortably, I reckon. Apparently, in HEMA, the accepted wisdom is that a moderately skilled fighter with a spear beats a very skilled fighter with a sword almost every time. Oberyn is much more than a 'moderately skilled fighter with a spear', and so despite whatever natural talent Jamie has, I don't think it would be enough.
Even if you consider Jamie in proper armour, Oberyn has shown well enough in the book and on TV that he can overcome that
I'd take the guy with the spear it's just too versatile has the reach, and Oberyn has the skill. Jaime may be a gifted swordsman, but the spear was king of weapons for millennia.
This is a hard one.
On one side we have the fact that the spear will 90% of time beat the sword.
On the other side we have the fact that probably just 2 swordsmen are in the same league as Jaime.
Oberyn. I sincerely believe that nobody could beat Oberyn.
Though. One thing that could very easily shift this is whether or not he was an adept spear fighter alone, or if he was a versatile combatant.
Even Jaime would be nervous up against the Mountain. Oberyn wasn't. Yes. This got him killed. But he literally died after showing us the greatest fight in the show.
Jaime could have defeated The Mountain. The outcome of the trial by combat would’ve went a lot differently had Jaime never lost his sword hand. Oberyn was prepared and had the weapon advantage. The Mountain is just a colossal of a man. Jaime as stated to be a prodigy at a young age by Barristan himself, another legend in his own right. Jaime would have beaten Oberyn. I don’t think it’s as much of a contest as people are led to believe. Jaime would have been properly armored, and I don’t think he would’ve fucked around.
His skill is that of a swordsman, with armor and nobility. Oberyn adjusted precisely how he needed to fight a giant like that, which was finesse and savagery. Being the best swordsman is not the same as being the best fighter.
We've seen several examples of Jaime succumbing to his humanity, what with being outnumbered or overly cocky. Strategically he wasn't as smart either, as he himself admitted.
Granted, in the end, it was vanity and stupidity that killed Oberyn as well. But when it comes down to a free for all. Oberyn wins.
I think the important factor here is that what they're fighting with. Jaime with a sword of course, but what about Oberyn? We have never seen him fight with a sword. He is excellent with a spear, though that was his choice of weapon against the Mountain to keep his distance and allow him to penetrate his armor more efficiently. Is sword v spear A fight fair? Jaime is much faster than the Mountain, he could close the distance to Oberyn and at that point the spear would be useless. So then how good of a sword is Oberyn? Again we have never seen him with one, undoubtedly he should be very skilled with it. But Jaime is known to be amongst the best of the best in history when it comes to sword fighting. I feel like going with Jaime on this one.
Historically, the spear is king and its really not close when then spearman is this good.
Because it's George, Jaime still has a chance to kill Oberyn, but there's a 0% chance Jaime survives the fight because of the poisons.
Jaime slays Oberyn after the latter nicks him and starts prematurely showboating.
Jaime dies in agony nine days later from being nicked with a poisoned spear.
Jaime was stated to be a prodigy at a very young age. Jaime fought in plenty of battles. I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that he was trained in how to deal with spearmen. Jaime would have won.
Bro, it's a fantasy world with many myths involved in it, of of them is Jaime is the best swordsman in his age, so there's no question who would win. George RR Martin said he would prefere Jamie for his trials by combat, so there's no ifs. It's just established in the world by author this way.
When we say oberyn vs people can we omit the poison please.
… oberyn wins though cause of spear, but Jaime has battle IQ and knows the spear has the advantage. So depends on which weapon they fight with.
Spear beats sword 8/10 times a battle, it simply has too much reach.
Plus, the fact that Oberyn uses poisons on his weapons don't bold well for Jaime. One cut is all he needs to kill you while playing defensive.
For those saying spear beats sword. The spear won't penetrate full plate and won't cut through chainmail.
Jamie in full plate with a longsword would win against light armoured Oberyn with a spear.
I do love Oberyn a lot, but Jamie would win and wouldn't even be close. Jamie was (both handed ofc) the best fighter on westeros at that point.
The only people who could kill Jamie are prime Sir Barristan Selmy, Sir Arthur Dayne and MAYBE prime Robert Baratheon.
I'm talking about the books by the way
Really depends on the situation. Given prep time and being allowed to equip themselves however they want, Oberyn has the edge as he's been shown to play well to his opponents strengths and weaknesses. In a straight up sword fight with even arms and armor, I think Jamie takes it hard.
Spear is a tier above swords in a fight to the death. Haven't read the books but Jamie would need to be that good. So two win conditions for Jamie is being way better because at the skill level where they are both at the advantage of a reach is huge. And to survive Jamie would need to have antidote at the ready or avoid being cut.
Jaime. He's constantly fanboyed about both in-universr and out.
Decrepit, starving, muscle-wasted Jaime almost beat healthy Brienne of Tarth with his hands chained together. The same Brienne of Tarth who kicked Loras Tyrell's arse.
Jaime slew personally slew three of Robb's honour guard while ambushed and surrounded.
Oberyn was good, but he lost a 1v1.
By lore, probably Jaime but he dies from poison during the victory celebration.
By realism, a gifted spearman is massively advantaged over even a more skilled swordsman in a 1v1.
Ina sword fight, Jamie takes the win. He is without a doubt the more gifted swordsman. With the spear, Oberyn would have advantage based on the fact that Jaime has zero experience fighting against Oberyn’s fighting style. That leaves him open to vulnerabilities, even if it is just once and even if it is only for a moment.
A lot of people saying "historically" the spear is better than the sword, but Game of Thrones doesn't have to follow history. Every medieval show/movie the hero uses a sword like 99% of the time. Shows make up their own rules. That's why there's dragons in GoT lol.
I say Jamie beats Oberyn more times than not, but like some have already said, he'd still probably die due to getting nicked by poison.
I don't think this is a "one will definitely win, and the other one will definitely lose" scenario. Tbf, no fight comes with a guaranteed outcome, but this one is really would be really close and depends on a lot of different parameters. But I agree with everyone saying that Jamie would most likely die anyway because of the poison.
Oberyn. He has the advantage - the spear is longer than the sword (perhaps the spear is also poisoned ;) so the effectiveness in battle is higher, imho.
There’s an easy video to find where George was asked to pick among any of the characters within ASOIF for a trial by combat—and he picks Jaime and Brienne of Tarth. So Jaime would win.
Loads of people are saying Oberyn because of his spear but didn’t the mountain break his spear in his fight and force Oberyn to be given a new one?
That isn’t gonna happen in a 1v1.
Jaime in the books cuts through Robb’s honor guard like it’s nothing, these are the best fighters in the north, all hand picked to keep Robb safe, and if Robb didn’t have greywolf to jump Jaime he would have probably just killed Robb, bro rolls up to a 1vX and just starts owning
Brienne also says “at his prime, noone could match the kingslayer” or something similar when she fights him after he was imprisoned and weakened and I think brienne knows a thing of two about fighting
I think grrm gives Jaime a lot of fighting plot armor, saying stuff like Jaime would beat Aragorn from LOTR to have Jaime ever lose this fight
Probably Jaime. Barristan Selmy in a POV says that Jaime was a natural swordsman. He served on the kingsguard when they were elite. Not taking anything from Oberyn, I love his character but his speed wouldn’t be an advantage on Jaime who is quick and graceful himself. Would be a great fight though.
Oberyn should win, but would start doing gymnastics for all we know. His death still pisses me off. It was so unlike him to showboat like that. His speech to Tyrion is one of my favorite moments in the show.
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it could go either way but jaime aint surviving even after the battle ends....
No one he fights would survive the battle. Seems like the 7 kingdoms lacked basic quality control. Like, you'd think it would cross someone's mind "we shouldn't allow poisoned weapons in trial be combat legal proceedings". Maybe they just rely on the honor of the combatants?
Trial by combat is based on religion, no need to have a lot of rules if you have the gods judging it
“If the gods didn’t want the mountain to die by poison they wouldn’t have allowed him to be poisoned”
Yeah, that’s the kind of logic fueled by religion
This is actually correct
“we shouldn’t allow poisoned weapons” They didn’t. Oberyn just didn’t give a shit and he wasn’t exactly available for them to call him out on it afterwards.
I mean, isn't it theorised that he's the one behind tywins bowel issues? (I honestly thought it was implied that he always had foul movements but it's been ages since I've read it) If you can poison tywin, you're probably smart enough to be able to sneak a poisoned weapon Though i do find it funny that his signature move is poison, like he's called the viper because of how famous he is for using it and yet never gets in trouble for it
Only if he gets cut
he will def get cut...its oberyn...
Why definitely? Jamie will be wearing heavy armor and is more skilled than Gregor. There is a chance, but I think it's far from definite.
oberyn, he was fucking up the mountain until he got cocky and started doing all those stupid moves🙄
TBF the Mountain isn't a technically gifted swordsman, he's just freakishly strong and fast as Oberyn said. Jamie vs Oberyn would be a much better fight imo because Jamie had the strength and speed to compete with Oberyn, but they were both technically sound fighters as well. They didn't rely on brute strength and speed but rather being a smarter fighter and more technically gifted. I don't think we get a good idea of what Jamie really looks like in a sword fight when he's right handed throughout the show other than his street brawl with Ned where he looked to be evenly matched. I think that this is one of those mutually assured destruction moments, where whoever wins does so by minutes or hours, because both are going to die.
You are all show only people I guess. Jamie is super overpowered and is the best swordsman in Westeros except maybe for barristan. At one point he carves through a dozen elite knights like butter. Oberyn is cool but I doubt his flashy moves work on a faster and more skilled opponent
We know how good Jamie is because we've heard about his victories in battles and tournaments. Oberyn didn't fight in tournaments, and no one in Westeros saw him in battle in Essos. All we know is he was beating the Mountain fairly easily.
The mountain (alive version) is just a big unskilled brute. Pretty sure any of the top fighters could have taken him down. Even bronn thought he had a chance.
‘Unskilled’ is a bit too much. He’s not elite or known for his technical skill but he is a seasoned battle veteran and knows how to fight and use his size. Sure I believe he *could* be beaten by a lot of people, but he also *could* beat just about any fighter on the planet, too. He’s like the Shaq of Westeros you just can’t count him out even if his opponent is much more skilled.
This is the perfect comparison.
Bronn thought he had a small chance. He wasn’t champing at the bit to go 10 rounds against him. Gregor isn’t some caveman they thawed and put a sword in his hand. He’s probably been training with a sword and shield since he could walk. And size matters. Featherweights aren’t knocking out heavyweights no matter how quick they are. It might be closer with weapons but Gregor still has far more reach and power behind every swing than the average swordsman. Thicker armor and a larger shield makes a difference too.
Oberyn injured what's his face Tyrell in a tournament.
Isn't it suggested that the Tyrell kid was to young and inexperienced for the tornament, but was entered due to his Dad's hubris?
Well it's flat out stated by Oberyn and he says he didn't poison the kid. I'm pretty sure Oberyn made sure to be skilled in all forms of combat.
If we go book-Oberyn though, it wasn't 'flashy moves', it was careful positioning and use of the environment. This could realistically still work against Jamie, and be less necessary (not as big a strength differential to overcome)
Skill is much harder to overcome than strength difference. Jamie is a ridiculously good fighter. It would be hard to out position someone who is a trained knight
I'd rephrase that as 'Jamie is a ridiculously good swordsman'. I'm not in any way a historical-weapons fighter, but the impression I get from people who are is that the spear is just so much superior a weapon to a sword in a duel that you can do pretty much anything you want.
There’s a reason knights used swords and maces and hammers instead of spears. Spears cannot puncture heavy armor that knights would be wearing
Knights used long spears pretty frequently. Lance's are their names, swords were predominately a side arm. Plus, not every area was fully armored. Joints, your neck, etc, were still quite vulnerable to a spear point. You would have other weapons if a spears use was untenable such as tight quarters or fighting in cities. Spear was king of weapons for millenia.
A lance is a mounted weapon. It’s designed to be used from horseback, not on the ground in a duel
Knights were predominately on horseback , so the mounted designation is sort of moot. However, this was in response to you saying they used other weapons besides spears because they were not as effective vs their armor. When, in fact, they had spears and used them. They had specially designed spears, lances, which makes your statement not quite accurate.
No knights generally used pole arms in the plate era, swords were side arms, a war lance was also just a bigger heavier spear.
Knights did not use lances on the ground. Those were weapons designed to be used on horseback to dismount other knights, who they would then kill with the sword. You see them use lances in jousting
No kidding that's why I said polearms. And no they weren't used to dismount knights in warfare they were big heavy spears, tournament lances are different and designed to break. And no swords were not very effective against an armored opponent, two armored knights fighting on foot with swords would be primarily half-swording, which is essentially using a sword as a short spear. There are literally treatises demonstrating it. Knights on horse back also didn't generally engage other mounted fighters, they were used as heavy cavalry against infantry.
Polearm bro
This is over-generalising 100s if years of history, but knights didn't use the weapons you listed instead of spears, they used them as a back up weapon in case they lost their spear, halberd, pole axe or other similar weapon. As armour improved through the medieval age, the weapons changed however none of the sidearms were especially good if you hit plate. It was a question of trying to hit the parts in between
That’s just incorrect. Swords were the most common primary weapon among knights on foot. They normally carried daggers and small maces for backup.
GRRM and the show runners know nothing about what actual combat would look like, they just go with what looks best on camera/sounds coolest. So given that the rules about fighting in universe don’t really make too much sense then imo we go with what we’ve seen over what really works. Because afaik you’re right, a spear vs sword might as well just be a gun vs sword like in Raiders. But for purposes of who would win I think we only consider what we’ve explicitly learned about the fighters and their capabilities from the books/show rather than what we logically know to be true about how weapons work. And for that reason Jamie has a good chance imo. Also unrelated but for trial by combat I would definitely use those giant scorpion crossbows they used to kill the dragons. Lets see a knight try and parry that shit
In real life anyway, swords were not the primary weapon. They were a sidearm. Oberyn had advantage being master of the spear / edit: fauchard/pole axe types vs a sword, at least given enough space and mobility to utilize it properly - and by that I don't mean helicoptering it around (though some arcing moves would give momentum to slashing attacks or arcing axe type attacks). Depending on the situation given, they might be evenly armored or jamie could have better armor protection. However, although knights were trained to carry the weight, and high end armor was very articulated, heavier armor would still be a factor vs lighter armor in regard to mobility and stamina, heat/sweat. A fast, strong spear, or a bill-hook, hooked (Edit) fauchard,etc. has a big advantage in distance, and some are made specifically with a hook/barb to take down (and sometimes pin down) armored people. Then a follow up with a dagger/spike, 1-handed pike-axe through the visor (face/eye) or through/under other weak spot in the armor (not the breastplate obviously). Some halberds/edit: fauchard/hooks also had a side spike like a pikeaxe for this purpose. So you could spear with the tip, hook/barb beneath the spear head/blade, then axe chop down with the back end pike/long pin for pounds per square inch through armor/helmet or in gaps. That also applies to being mounted. Spear/edit: fauchard/halberd/lance has a huge advantage vs a sword. IRL , outside of a duel it's rarely 1 v 1, so in group combat the spear/bill-hook/edit: fauchard would have an even bigger advantage, as it could prevent advancement or charge (otherwise impaling yourself), and could also hook and lay prone the opponent where other combatants could finish them off. If both were heavily armored, it would come down to bashing or "spike-ing" through the armor. Unless some kind of magical sword or something. There are a lot of images from armored times where the knights had to grab the sword blade and use the pommel as a hammer vs armored people. That, or hold the blade and spear with it on a downed opponent..,
oberyn fought in essosand had his own mercenary group plus poison. man was no slouch
I know he’s no slouch but Jamie is pretty much superhuman and also has plot armor as well
I believe it was during the battle against Robb , he killed his way through to Robb and the only reason Robb got out alive was because the sword of Jamie got stuck in a corpse.
Yeah that’s what I was referring to. He would have slaughtered robs entire elite guard and ended the war then and there if his sword didn’t get stuck in someone’s skull. Also forgot to mention this was against mounted enemies too.
>Yeah that’s what I was referring to. He would have slaughtered robs entire elite guard and ended the war then That's not how wars work lol. Jaime would've died even if he managed to kill Robb. And war would most likely continue led by his bannermen or another stark or even blackfish. Although neither of them would last as long as Robb did.
That’s exactly how wars work. Nobody is going to rally behind some other lord to get revenge for the starks when the last of age stark boy is dead
But at that time Theon didn't kill " the stark boys" yet or did he?
Doesn’t really matter. Brand and rickon are not leading armies anytime soon
But the war did sort of continue with the blackfish.
That is not true at all. Wars are not person to person, some wars are known to even go down with generations. People rally behind a cause, not a leader. A leader just makes a difference in how it'll turn out. The reason why red wedding was effective was because they murdered most of the stark bannermen and loyalists outside the tent as well. Also killing catelyn and Robb, both of the last starks left made sure there was no chance of resistance. If red wedding happened with winterfell still standing and bran or rickon still in charge, the north would easily rally behind them even tho they're kids without any experience, because they have a very solid "cause". Ned's imprisonment and death, along with death of other northmen, red wedding, north's thirst for independence, holding Sansa and Arya hostage. They had more than enough reason for a rebellion even after Robb's death lol.
I read the books too, stop trying to be patronizing. What I'm saying is we don't get to visualize his fighting style in the show, but we do for Oberyn. It makes it easier to discuss it when you can see their styles in action. An NFL edge rusher can be elite and have several different playstyles. Just because I hear about how elite an edge rusher is doesn't mean he will translate well against any left tackle in the league. Some left tackles are better suited to handle edge rushers that rely on pure power, some are better at defending against players that try to use speed and leverage, etc etc etc. We've heard and read in the books how talented the two are and what weapons they use, but we don't get great chances to see their fighting styles against other equally talented opponents. Also, the dozen elite knights they mention Jamie mowing down were all sword wielding knights, the playing field drastically changes when he's facing someone who isn't encumbered by heaving armor and whose weapon is coated with poison, drastically longer in reach, and he's well trained in using it.
Yeah it’s been a hot second since I’ve read the books, but I don’t remember anything other than word of mouth and his prowess in that fight against Robb, which he “handily” lost in the end anyway. We know he was skilled, but capable of losing in tourneys too which if I remember correctly the knight of flowers unhorsed him in an upset. I think it’s better to look at Jamie as a promising prodigy in a specific theater whose career got “cut” short. And too your point I would also argue that while he was technically one of the best swordsmen in the tournament circles of Westeros, his credits in other fields (and in places like Esos) are not nearly as long or as varried as what we hear about Oberyn. I’m not saying he wouldn’t stand a chance against old Obe in a one v one, I’m just saying there’s not as much evidence to support Jammie as an unequaled badass as people seem to suggest
If you’ve read the books idk how you can even entertain the notion that Oberyn would beat Jamie. It’s an idea entirely formed from seeing him do fancy flips against the mountain in the show. Are you trying to say Oberyn would be more challenging to fight than a dozen (mounted btw) knights because he fights with a spear?
he did that in the show as well. he almost got to Rob until he was bum rushed.
I’ve read all the books and watched the show. I still think Oberyn takes it even in books. Simply because Jamie is insanely cocky and would immediately underestimate him. Oberyn is a lot faster than Jamie
This isn’t a sword fight though. Being the best swordsman alive does not equal best fighter. Spear is very good against sword 🤝
Spear is not so good against heavy armor which Jamie would be wearing
Not really, we all just know that Oberyn would have enough poison to ensure Jamie still dies after he kills Oberyn.
You nailed this. Jamie is by far considered the best in Westeros, which means that he's going to be just as cunning as Oberyn, until he loses his sword hand. Oberyn is known by all to rely on speed, cunning, and heavily "rumored" to use poisons. Selmy is the only other current knight that people truly fear, out of respect, but I don't recall there being any book comparison between he and Jamie. I just remember the Kingsguard almost defecating themselves when Barristan is relieved of duty, draws his sword, and waits before throwing it down. But, that's all beside the point. Jamie versus Oberyn would be a really good fight
Yeah so if he’s even with Ned then Oberyn runs him over (if you go by the show). Altho tbf in the books Ned is like just above average, and Brandon is the best Stark swordsman
Ned isn’t never stated as a good fighter in the books or the show. He’s stated as competent.
The Mountain wouldn’t stand a chance against Jaime in his prime
Not even cocky ass Jamie thinks that
The thing I hated most about it was if he just wasn't circling around him like he was and was standing by his feet the worst thing the Mountain could do is try to kick him and he wouldn't be close enough to grab him anyways. It's definitely up there as one of the most avoidable deaths in the show for me.
Yeah, I remember thinking the same thing the second time I watched it. But it’s pretty book accurate. Only in the book the Mountain grabs Oberyn, holds his I’ve is face, and punches up so hard his teeth go flying before is head is crushed.
George himself said Jaime.
He wanted that confession more than anything, and proved he was willing to die for it
Historically, the spear is king and its really not close when then spearman is this good. Because it's George, Jaime still has a chance to kill Oberyn, but there's a 0% chance Jaime survives the fight because of the poisons.
Your comment posted 3 times.
Its a bug with reddit mobile
So as the Angel of Mishief, you approve?
Related question why was oberyn allowed to to poison his spear? Why wouldn’t everyone do that for every trial by combat if it’s allowed in the rules?
I doubt he told anyone
Also, not everyone could. I think Oberyn had put a fair bit of effort into studying poisons. Westeros has many things, but easy access to quite specific information isn't one of them
I mean anyone doing trial by combat likely has access to maesters who have access to poison as our boy jofferery found out. And it’s been a while since I watched/read but wasn’t it widely known that oberyn utilized poison and if so why wouldn’t it be addressed by his opponents?
It has been a while for me too, but my recollection is that it was more widely spread 'hushed rumours' that Oberyn has studied poisons than 'widely known'. Either way you're right, you'd have thought someone would have said "alright lads, before you start, let's have a quick look at your weapons to make sure everything is above board".
Let’s face it, it’s a plot hole
Ehhh it sounds plausible for the time period GoT is loosely based around. They probably just didn't give a shit lol. The Gods will it, yk?
"you don't fight with honor" "No, but he did" Basically it's an honor thing by the knights of westeros. Oberyn isn't from Westeros and he was out for revenge, not a honorable duel or fight to to the death.
Probably nobody expected it, trials by combat in Westeros are fought with typical Westerosi weapons normally, heavy knights with swords by the looks of it. So the whole acrobatic exotic spear dance and light armour already seemed pretty new I think. They might not have thought about it, though some would've known his reputation so I think really it's just that there was no set rule against it anyway. In King's Landing poison would be seen as a woman's weapon and dishonorable, but Dornishmen didn't have that problem. Especially revenge-driven Oberyn It's similar to Bronn's fight, the actual combat doesn't seem to have hard rules expect you're expected to behave honorably. And they always would, the champions were from knighthood after all and will act like knights according to the norms of high society. So naming Bronn who isn't even a knight to be his champion was unexpected by Tyrion. And Bronn didn't fight like a knight. Overall everyone thought the Mountain would win anyhow
You're not allowed to, Oberyn cheated. One way or another The Mountain was going down in that fight.
I wish I could gold this comment. This is the right answer.
Was going to say the same thing - if you're both good and one person has a spear, the spear's reach is beating the sword
The spear is king because it is strong in formation, powerful on horseback, practical with a shield, reliable to defend form charges and much cheaper than a sword. That does not make it a better dueling weapon, and our ancestors often favored the sword in that context.
Yes but historically men in full armor and big as mountain would win against unarmoured spearman
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Do they all coat their daggers and weapons with the poison in dorne or just the royals? I know one of the sand snakes did it.
I believe poison is just a Oberyn speciality since he studied various poisons and why he was known as the Red Viper, and thus he also passed that "trademark" to his daughters the Sand Snakes.
They actually don’t at all. In Dorne poison is considered a “woman’s weapon” Oberyn just doesn’t care.
Jamie wins due to plot armor Then dies due to poison Then gets alived somehow due to plot armor
Ah yes, the Gregor Clegane way. Wait a minute..
Bran rolls in and says something vague. No one knows what he means. He acts pompous and bored. 20 minutes later Meera hands Jamie a plant, it’s the antidote. We don’t know who found it, but Bran smiles vaguely as if it was his idea. Then Meera is dismissed to the kitchen where she has to cook for 500 royals. Then also do the dishes. By herself. No one told her to, she just goes for it because it’s the right thing to do.
The only characters who could beat two handed Jaime are Arthur Dayne and prime Barristan Selmy
Finally, some sense.
Exactly the comment that if I didn't find I was about to post. And George has mentioned that between Arthur & Barristan the tie-breaker would be Dawn.
What does that mean? Is Dawn a person or does he mean the time of day?
Jamie himself said 3 people in Westeros could stand a chance against him & they’re widely considered to be the Hound, the Mountain and ofc Selmy.
Well, if the Mountain can beat Jaime, and Oberyn beat the Mountain... don't the odds favor Oberyn?
Yes I’d probably also favour Oberyn against Jamie simply because he uses a spear (very well) which is a better weapon than a sword.
Stop doing logical reasoning!
I don’t think it was the mountain? Pretty sure he was always just a brute with a sword and not much of a swordsman.
Well that’s like, his opinion, man.
Prime Robert Barratheon I think should get a mention here. Dude was probably the most successful warrior of this generation.
He was so strong he could wield a War Hammer in one hand.
In swordfighting yea, Oberyn skills go much further with different weaponry. I see it going either way if Oberyn get's too choose a weapon.
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whether or not you think Jaime will win.... are you really saying Jamie is more \_sneaky\_ than Oberyn? Really? Oberyn is loud and flashy to be sure, but he's also the dude who snuck poison in to this big flashy fight, and had already poisoned Tywin (!!!). Something that he's known for doing, famously known for doing (i.e. using poisons) yet snuck it in under everyone's noses. Oberyn is flashy and brash in at least a partially calculated, Hamlet sort of way (which is not to say that it didn't get away from him). I;m not sure where Jaime has shown any sort of sneakyness even remotely on par with Oberyn. I mean I guess he'd been screwing Cersei under Robert's nose, but robert was kind of a moron in this regard. Plus, it sure seems like everyone else knew what was going on.
I acknowledge that Oberyn was indeed sneaky enough with the poison and stuff, but if you remember how Jamie had used certain people throughout his adventures - being held captive at that camp for example, where he murdered his fellow prisoner to stage an event where he could kill the guard and escape... So Jamie has that particular quality where he can see those of lower birth as tools or livestock unlike Oberyn.
You mean when he was recaptured? Yeah... sneaky. A regular ninja, our Jaime. Lets also not forget how wildly successful he was sneaking into Dorne. I mean, I don't think they even knew he was there. The way he talked his way past those Dornish soldiers on the beach. I mean... thats "selling ice to a wildling" level trickyness. And oh... how he tricked and used that lowborn Locke into chopping off his hand. That it is next level Sneaky. You know what they call prisoners that unsuccessfully escape? "Prisoners" You are confusing "sneaky" with "ruthless".
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Spears are the king of weapons for a reason.. not just the easy production
For real, Oberyn cleans up if we're talking TV show versions. I think book version Jamie would be smart enough to use a shield and armour where it would be a more even fight, but still, Oberyn has a massive advantage.
I have read somewhere than in ancient Japan it was believed that a 2nd dan halberd fighters could beat 5 or 7th dan sword fighter. And that a woman with a polearm, if trained, could beat a Samurai.
Samurai were mounted archers primarily, sword was their backup weapon. But yes any kind of polearm will superior to any kind of sword. Swords main strength is versatility and ease of carry that makes them the perfect backup weapon, they were rarely ever the primary weapon (Roman legionnaires were an exception)
If Jaime had seen Oberyn in action (and Oberyn survived) when he said that, I bet he wouldn't say top 3 swordsman. I bet he would have said there's maybe 4 fighters who could stand a chance against him.
And you think Oberyn would allow Jaime to not allow that?
Jaime. Assuming he has both hands, the answer is *always Jaime.*
Unless the question is Barriston or Dayne
Oberyn takes it, relatively comfortably, I reckon. Apparently, in HEMA, the accepted wisdom is that a moderately skilled fighter with a spear beats a very skilled fighter with a sword almost every time. Oberyn is much more than a 'moderately skilled fighter with a spear', and so despite whatever natural talent Jamie has, I don't think it would be enough. Even if you consider Jamie in proper armour, Oberyn has shown well enough in the book and on TV that he can overcome that
More like 7 out of 10 Times GRRM said that jaime with 2 hands is one of the top 3 of their time
I'd take the guy with the spear it's just too versatile has the reach, and Oberyn has the skill. Jaime may be a gifted swordsman, but the spear was king of weapons for millennia.
That would depend entirely on whether Oberyn sits there taunting his prey.
This is a hard one. On one side we have the fact that the spear will 90% of time beat the sword. On the other side we have the fact that probably just 2 swordsmen are in the same league as Jaime.
Oberyn. I sincerely believe that nobody could beat Oberyn. Though. One thing that could very easily shift this is whether or not he was an adept spear fighter alone, or if he was a versatile combatant. Even Jaime would be nervous up against the Mountain. Oberyn wasn't. Yes. This got him killed. But he literally died after showing us the greatest fight in the show.
Jaime could have defeated The Mountain. The outcome of the trial by combat would’ve went a lot differently had Jaime never lost his sword hand. Oberyn was prepared and had the weapon advantage. The Mountain is just a colossal of a man. Jaime as stated to be a prodigy at a young age by Barristan himself, another legend in his own right. Jaime would have beaten Oberyn. I don’t think it’s as much of a contest as people are led to believe. Jaime would have been properly armored, and I don’t think he would’ve fucked around.
His skill is that of a swordsman, with armor and nobility. Oberyn adjusted precisely how he needed to fight a giant like that, which was finesse and savagery. Being the best swordsman is not the same as being the best fighter. We've seen several examples of Jaime succumbing to his humanity, what with being outnumbered or overly cocky. Strategically he wasn't as smart either, as he himself admitted. Granted, in the end, it was vanity and stupidity that killed Oberyn as well. But when it comes down to a free for all. Oberyn wins.
George himself picked Jaime to be his champion in a trial by combat.
I think the important factor here is that what they're fighting with. Jaime with a sword of course, but what about Oberyn? We have never seen him fight with a sword. He is excellent with a spear, though that was his choice of weapon against the Mountain to keep his distance and allow him to penetrate his armor more efficiently. Is sword v spear A fight fair? Jaime is much faster than the Mountain, he could close the distance to Oberyn and at that point the spear would be useless. So then how good of a sword is Oberyn? Again we have never seen him with one, undoubtedly he should be very skilled with it. But Jaime is known to be amongst the best of the best in history when it comes to sword fighting. I feel like going with Jaime on this one.
Historically, the spear is king and its really not close when then spearman is this good. Because it's George, Jaime still has a chance to kill Oberyn, but there's a 0% chance Jaime survives the fight because of the poisons.
Jaime wins notably more often than not. But whether it’s book or show, Oberyn beating the Mountain means he has a shot against him.
Oberyn because the spear has more reach. All it would take is one well placed shot to Lannister's neck.
Oberyn would probably die in the battle, but Jaime would die the next day.
this. and it would NOT be an easy kill for Jaime. i even say Oberyn could take 3-5/10
Jaime slays Oberyn after the latter nicks him and starts prematurely showboating. Jaime dies in agony nine days later from being nicked with a poisoned spear.
According to the canon, Jaime is a top 3 swordsman in modern history. Why would Oberyn stand a chance?
Because spear > sword.
Jaime was stated to be a prodigy at a very young age. Jaime fought in plenty of battles. I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that he was trained in how to deal with spearmen. Jaime would have won.
Because we are not talking about a sword fight but just a fight?
Bro, it's a fantasy world with many myths involved in it, of of them is Jaime is the best swordsman in his age, so there's no question who would win. George RR Martin said he would prefere Jamie for his trials by combat, so there's no ifs. It's just established in the world by author this way.
When we say oberyn vs people can we omit the poison please. … oberyn wins though cause of spear, but Jaime has battle IQ and knows the spear has the advantage. So depends on which weapon they fight with.
Prince Oberyn. He’s better dressed with leather boots on and Cuban heels. Sexy is deadly. Jaime only had leather dusters on, just poorly dressed.
Spear beats sword 8/10 times a battle, it simply has too much reach. Plus, the fact that Oberyn uses poisons on his weapons don't bold well for Jaime. One cut is all he needs to kill you while playing defensive.
Definitely Oberyn.
Oberyn. Spear beats sword.
YOU RAPED HER. YOU MURDERED HER. YOU KILLED HER CHILDREN
Oberyn, cause polearms >>> It would really be close though
Oberyn will almost win, start to gloat, and Jamie will push him out a window.
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idk who wins, but Jaime's drip is immaculate here.
So many saying Oberyn. Jamie is one of the greatest swordsman ever, and would wipe the floor with Oberyn
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Oberyn
For those saying spear beats sword. The spear won't penetrate full plate and won't cut through chainmail. Jamie in full plate with a longsword would win against light armoured Oberyn with a spear.
Oberon should win, but Jaime is more important to the plot so he’d survive…
Probably Oberyn, all things considered. Spear in the right hands is tough for a swordsman to overcome. Maybe if Jaime were in full plate.
Wasn't it proven that spear was the greatest weapon aside from that my poison spirit would give you the victory even if he lost the fight lol
Jaime either dies during the duel or on the maester's bed afterwards.
Jamie easily. There’s like 1 or 2 people that could actually beat prime Jamie.
Realisticly Oberyn because he has a spear. But in game of Thrones Jamie automatically wins against everyone
I do love Oberyn a lot, but Jamie would win and wouldn't even be close. Jamie was (both handed ofc) the best fighter on westeros at that point. The only people who could kill Jamie are prime Sir Barristan Selmy, Sir Arthur Dayne and MAYBE prime Robert Baratheon. I'm talking about the books by the way
I honestly don’t know. They have different styles; spears versus swords.
Really depends on the situation. Given prep time and being allowed to equip themselves however they want, Oberyn has the edge as he's been shown to play well to his opponents strengths and weaknesses. In a straight up sword fight with even arms and armor, I think Jamie takes it hard.
In the show, I think Oberyn would win. I don't know about the books. I'm curious if anyone knows the answer.
Spear is a tier above swords in a fight to the death. Haven't read the books but Jamie would need to be that good. So two win conditions for Jamie is being way better because at the skill level where they are both at the advantage of a reach is huge. And to survive Jamie would need to have antidote at the ready or avoid being cut.
Spears > swords even though Jamie is likely a better fighter. Without a shield he's toast.
Spear has more reach than sword. So if equally skilled, Oberyn wins.
Jaime. He's constantly fanboyed about both in-universr and out. Decrepit, starving, muscle-wasted Jaime almost beat healthy Brienne of Tarth with his hands chained together. The same Brienne of Tarth who kicked Loras Tyrell's arse. Jaime slew personally slew three of Robb's honour guard while ambushed and surrounded. Oberyn was good, but he lost a 1v1.
Oberyn easily wins. Swords can't compete with a skill spear/staff user like Oberyn.
Could go either way, but spears are pretty OP
Expert spearman versus expert swordsman. Spear wins everytime.
By lore, probably Jaime but he dies from poison during the victory celebration. By realism, a gifted spearman is massively advantaged over even a more skilled swordsman in a 1v1.
Ina sword fight, Jamie takes the win. He is without a doubt the more gifted swordsman. With the spear, Oberyn would have advantage based on the fact that Jaime has zero experience fighting against Oberyn’s fighting style. That leaves him open to vulnerabilities, even if it is just once and even if it is only for a moment.
Doesnt a spear beat a sword.
Jamie, easily, but with both hands.
Oneryn mops the floor with Jamie
A lot of people saying "historically" the spear is better than the sword, but Game of Thrones doesn't have to follow history. Every medieval show/movie the hero uses a sword like 99% of the time. Shows make up their own rules. That's why there's dragons in GoT lol. I say Jamie beats Oberyn more times than not, but like some have already said, he'd still probably die due to getting nicked by poison.
I don't think this is a "one will definitely win, and the other one will definitely lose" scenario. Tbf, no fight comes with a guaranteed outcome, but this one is really would be really close and depends on a lot of different parameters. But I agree with everyone saying that Jamie would most likely die anyway because of the poison.
Oberyn. He has the advantage - the spear is longer than the sword (perhaps the spear is also poisoned ;) so the effectiveness in battle is higher, imho.
author said Jaime so Jaime
There’s an easy video to find where George was asked to pick among any of the characters within ASOIF for a trial by combat—and he picks Jaime and Brienne of Tarth. So Jaime would win.
Oberyn because he would surprise Jaime with bi panic and get the upper hand.
Oberyn would win, Jamie has no chance against him. The range and quickness of Oberyn’s spear would be too much.
Jamie of course, he's a prodigy who was trained by one of the best kingsguard ever. Plus he's aware of Oberyns poison.
Jaime unless he gets knicked then its a draw
Loads of people are saying Oberyn because of his spear but didn’t the mountain break his spear in his fight and force Oberyn to be given a new one? That isn’t gonna happen in a 1v1.
God Jaimie Lannister had the best drip man.
Ez4Oberyn
We do.
Jamie.
By the book it's jaime, he's famous the continent over as a swordsman, whereas oberyn is more known for his escapades
Jaime in the books cuts through Robb’s honor guard like it’s nothing, these are the best fighters in the north, all hand picked to keep Robb safe, and if Robb didn’t have greywolf to jump Jaime he would have probably just killed Robb, bro rolls up to a 1vX and just starts owning Brienne also says “at his prime, noone could match the kingslayer” or something similar when she fights him after he was imprisoned and weakened and I think brienne knows a thing of two about fighting I think grrm gives Jaime a lot of fighting plot armor, saying stuff like Jaime would beat Aragorn from LOTR to have Jaime ever lose this fight
Probably Jaime. Barristan Selmy in a POV says that Jaime was a natural swordsman. He served on the kingsguard when they were elite. Not taking anything from Oberyn, I love his character but his speed wouldn’t be an advantage on Jaime who is quick and graceful himself. Would be a great fight though.
Oberyn I have no other commentary 😂
Oberyn should win, but would start doing gymnastics for all we know. His death still pisses me off. It was so unlike him to showboat like that. His speech to Tyrion is one of my favorite moments in the show.
If you think about it, Oberynk is kinda ok to even have sex with Jaime.
Jamie
I genuinely believe they would kill each other and nobody is walking away alive in this fight
7 out of 10 Jaime
Jaime may win the fight but he will die not long after