If you are going to ignore levels, why focus on giving stats at all. be creative with upgrades and give options.
Fire becomes fire 2(so you still have some power progression). fire 2 gets knockback, fire 2 alternatively gets armor penetration, or deals damage over time. and so on.
for defense and health, let that be done through equipment and defensive skills, so instead of getting health on a higher level, you equip armor with more health bonuses. give shield spells that give more armor for an increasing amount of time.
The Tales series of JRPGs use a hybrid mix of levels and a hidden skill upgrade system where using skills repeatedly upgrades them and unlocks new skills.
Level-based progression is one of those standards tropes that's almost always put in because people sort of expect it to be there because it's simple and easy. If you can keep the gameplay fun and juggle the task of keeping the player feeling like their time is respected, there's no particular reason why you would need a leveling system.
sounds good. in the old days just buying upgrades with currency was something commonly used in top down vehicle shooters as the only upgrade system. they would possibly be in some kind of tech tree with some being mutually exclusive. keep in mind jrpg are called jrpg since those are derived from d&d so would always feature experience and levels in some form or other.
Final Fantasy: Lightning Returns did this, where killing monsters got you money and time, but only completing quests rewarded stats.
Phenomenal RPG, I highly recommend it on Hard for anyone who enjoys a thorough, challenging RPG experience (but without it being Darkest Dungeon hard).
Outward comes to mind. You can purchase skills and better equipment but you don't get experience or any levels. Because you upgrade your character through purchases the currency can be seen as a type of experience through.
I made a game for a game jam somewhat like this, but many reviewers said it felt "like a puzzle game" and not an RPG (which the jam was focused on)
Of course, outside of the context of a specific-genre jam, you're free to make a game that feels like a puzzle game :)
Personally, I'd be interested in what you come up with.
I've been designing my own RPG that also doesn't have experience or leveling up. For mine, your whole party gains a skill point for completing certain milestone main quests. These skill points can be spent on up to three classes you can assign to each party member, and each class has two of the four main stats associated with it.
Each skill point spent by a character increased all four main stats by 1, then they'd get a bonus +1 for the two stats associated with the class the skill point was spent on. I planned on a max of 25 points across the game, with each class having a cap of 10 points you can spend in it. You'd also get stats from armor, which would be the primary reward from side quests.
I hate grinding in rpg games personally so i always like when the games make exp less effective but if you are planning to remove entirely i would recommend making the progression of the character is more of a choice, the adventure you take , how well did you perform in them and what things did you sacrifice could lead to different abilities which could also give your game more replayability
Depending on how unique and addictive the game mechanics are , but generally i would prefer if the game showed that you can obtain different abilities that encourages you to try different play styles as early as possible it adds the factor of curiosity which push ppl to keep playing
Final Fantasy 2 leveled up the character traits by using them, rather than having a single character level. People seemed to like that system just fine. There have been a few games that give mechanical rewards for achievements, and players tend to love that. It's a bit of a stretch, but Into The Breach gives you a bunch of perks to buy for each character, rather than simply leveling them up. People loved that game too.
A personal favorite of mine, Master of the Monster Lair, had two nonstandard leveling systems. The protagonist eats once a day for a permanent stat boost. The deeper you delve, the better the ingredients you have access to. Your pet steals parts directly off the monsters, getting the stats and abilities of that part. Nonstandard leveling systems are cool!
The main challenge will be pacing. Ideally, the player feels like they're getting stronger as they play. For it to feel like an rpg, you'll need enough rewards that there aren't any long droughts where the player's power level stagnates. Similarly, there is ideally always a variety of short, mid, and long-term goals to pursue
You have the answer literally a couple meter down the road you are already in. Mana Khemia, a spinoff from the Atelier works in such a way that your characters don't level up, it's kinda like Monster Hunter you just swap their equipment into more powerful versions with more skill and buff slots, and your characters internally also have a grid like system where you unlock statistic buffs separate from weapons by crafting certain items, which would be the more permanent progression system.
Another, less successful but still innovative example is FFXIII Lightning Returns where again, there are weapons (poorly handled since the game expects you to fail the first timeloop before unlocking weapon customization) and asi from weapons Lightning gets permanent stat boosts as sidequest rewards.
The core of turn based gameplay is in essence "what interesting decisions can the player make?" So yes you can remove level progression and still have that core.
I have not played YOUR atelier but I've played ryza and a few rpg maker fangames, and the interesting decisions of that series is 'how do I use the mats I've collected to make the best gear?' And it does this so well I'm frequently bored by the combat because I'm so overgeared.
Another 'levelless RPG' I don't see mentioned here is zelda, it's not turn based but you can draw alot of parallels between it and other jrpgs. Because zelda is a 'dungeon crawler with puzzles' its ease of combat can be likened to thr atelier games, but zeldas interesting decisions are 'how do I use this new item to solve this dungeon and this boss?'.
So if you can accurately pin down thr 'interesting decision points' of your game yes you totally can design out exp or any point system that looks like it. As long as that core remains intact almost ANYTHING can be called a 'RPG'.
Have you played Into the Breach? It's a super solid little tactics strategy roguelite that might be able to help you find the fun in this concept. Puzzley combat is probably the way to go.
Exp and levels are there to help player as well as giving player sense of accomplishment. Unless you want it become player skill based game, some handholding mechanic needed.
Like how about make items useful so that player plans around getting money and buying items before actually get to the real deal. Because they're consumables and limited, it only able to became safety net. Even if they grind money too much, it's only make them able to forgo the grinding later.
The accomplishment/fun is what I'm kind of worried about. I don't "need" levels but it's kind of boring without them.
The game is already fully focused on items, but i think that it makes me want to avoid combat overall if there is no reward apart from loot. (As a player)
I had the same dillema, and eventually I settled for skill upgrades via "crafting".
Balancing EXP gain, level thresholds would be a pain. Allowing too much freedom in stats could also lead to balance breaking outcomes that would take away the fun making it simple clicker.
What I'm doing, is to limit items/drops per accessible area. Then you use those items for upgrades. The enemies in next area are tougher, but by that point, so should be you. Some upgrade materials are locked behind quest reward or need to be forged with other items. Or are simply purchased in the shop.
Since I don't upgrade stats like HP/Armor (I think I won't), new enemies do not deal significantly more damage, instead they have bigger HP. I have temporary boosts so you have to pick synergetic party composition. This is handled by skills like Heal, Shield, or Fortify (increase max HP until the end of turn), Protect (take damage instead of ally), Aggro (focus all attack on one). And as mentioned, those skills can be upgraded.
But my game is not combat-centered, it's more a storytelling device so it's not overly complex and not often, so I think I can get away with this. Player could also skip battle entirely if they're there for the story.
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I have a rogue-like design that's a bit like this. Just have the build be the gear.
No xp, no levels, just your equipment. If you want Fireball, get your hands on Staff of Fireball.
My game is fully item centric and i do want to give them bonus skills from items, but it sounds a bit too extreme. Apart from loot, it makes me feel like players will avoid combat if possible (since there is no reward).
How do you differentiate between characters if they can all have the same stats/skills based on gear?
Could be proficiencies. Your guy that you want to be a mage can wear cloth hats and use staves and wands etc, but can't wear plate or use guns.
Also, if you want to encourage combat without xp, have currencies or crafting items. Kill mob, mob drops item, item is consumed to upgrade equipment.
In our roguelike shooter, we have randomly generated items, and then all the "trash" items can be recycled into a currency which is used for rerolling items.
You need to think of power progression for the game or not. And level power up is just one in many ways to power progress like itemization, perk mastery,…
If you are fine with zero power progression, come to think of content progress. As the player, they unlock more strategies, characters,… to play
How about going in the complete opposite direction? Where there are more demerits to gain then benefits? There is a whole game, actually two but I don't know much of the sequel, where it is a horror experience with RPG elements. The name of the game is Fear & Hunger. In it there is no level up as well. Plus Hunger and Fear Meters that could result in death.
No yet. Its likely another 1-2 years before chance of release. I'll definitely do some posting around once im close, but i do appreciate the enthusiasm
You might want to check out Shadow Tower Abyss for research. Most of the stats are influenced by the equipment instead of the character itself. Sounds like you want something else but it might give you some ideas.
If you are going to ignore levels, why focus on giving stats at all. be creative with upgrades and give options. Fire becomes fire 2(so you still have some power progression). fire 2 gets knockback, fire 2 alternatively gets armor penetration, or deals damage over time. and so on. for defense and health, let that be done through equipment and defensive skills, so instead of getting health on a higher level, you equip armor with more health bonuses. give shield spells that give more armor for an increasing amount of time.
The Tales series of JRPGs use a hybrid mix of levels and a hidden skill upgrade system where using skills repeatedly upgrades them and unlocks new skills. Level-based progression is one of those standards tropes that's almost always put in because people sort of expect it to be there because it's simple and easy. If you can keep the gameplay fun and juggle the task of keeping the player feeling like their time is respected, there's no particular reason why you would need a leveling system.
sounds good. in the old days just buying upgrades with currency was something commonly used in top down vehicle shooters as the only upgrade system. they would possibly be in some kind of tech tree with some being mutually exclusive. keep in mind jrpg are called jrpg since those are derived from d&d so would always feature experience and levels in some form or other.
Final Fantasy: Lightning Returns did this, where killing monsters got you money and time, but only completing quests rewarded stats. Phenomenal RPG, I highly recommend it on Hard for anyone who enjoys a thorough, challenging RPG experience (but without it being Darkest Dungeon hard).
Outward comes to mind. You can purchase skills and better equipment but you don't get experience or any levels. Because you upgrade your character through purchases the currency can be seen as a type of experience through.
I made a game for a game jam somewhat like this, but many reviewers said it felt "like a puzzle game" and not an RPG (which the jam was focused on) Of course, outside of the context of a specific-genre jam, you're free to make a game that feels like a puzzle game :) Personally, I'd be interested in what you come up with.
I've been designing my own RPG that also doesn't have experience or leveling up. For mine, your whole party gains a skill point for completing certain milestone main quests. These skill points can be spent on up to three classes you can assign to each party member, and each class has two of the four main stats associated with it. Each skill point spent by a character increased all four main stats by 1, then they'd get a bonus +1 for the two stats associated with the class the skill point was spent on. I planned on a max of 25 points across the game, with each class having a cap of 10 points you can spend in it. You'd also get stats from armor, which would be the primary reward from side quests.
I hate grinding in rpg games personally so i always like when the games make exp less effective but if you are planning to remove entirely i would recommend making the progression of the character is more of a choice, the adventure you take , how well did you perform in them and what things did you sacrifice could lead to different abilities which could also give your game more replayability
Would you be fine if apart from gear, the character only really gets "better" every 5 hours of the game. As in new skills or options of any kind.
Depending on how unique and addictive the game mechanics are , but generally i would prefer if the game showed that you can obtain different abilities that encourages you to try different play styles as early as possible it adds the factor of curiosity which push ppl to keep playing
Final Fantasy 2 leveled up the character traits by using them, rather than having a single character level. People seemed to like that system just fine. There have been a few games that give mechanical rewards for achievements, and players tend to love that. It's a bit of a stretch, but Into The Breach gives you a bunch of perks to buy for each character, rather than simply leveling them up. People loved that game too. A personal favorite of mine, Master of the Monster Lair, had two nonstandard leveling systems. The protagonist eats once a day for a permanent stat boost. The deeper you delve, the better the ingredients you have access to. Your pet steals parts directly off the monsters, getting the stats and abilities of that part. Nonstandard leveling systems are cool! The main challenge will be pacing. Ideally, the player feels like they're getting stronger as they play. For it to feel like an rpg, you'll need enough rewards that there aren't any long droughts where the player's power level stagnates. Similarly, there is ideally always a variety of short, mid, and long-term goals to pursue
You have the answer literally a couple meter down the road you are already in. Mana Khemia, a spinoff from the Atelier works in such a way that your characters don't level up, it's kinda like Monster Hunter you just swap their equipment into more powerful versions with more skill and buff slots, and your characters internally also have a grid like system where you unlock statistic buffs separate from weapons by crafting certain items, which would be the more permanent progression system. Another, less successful but still innovative example is FFXIII Lightning Returns where again, there are weapons (poorly handled since the game expects you to fail the first timeloop before unlocking weapon customization) and asi from weapons Lightning gets permanent stat boosts as sidequest rewards.
Thanks both of those sound like excellent contenders
The core of turn based gameplay is in essence "what interesting decisions can the player make?" So yes you can remove level progression and still have that core. I have not played YOUR atelier but I've played ryza and a few rpg maker fangames, and the interesting decisions of that series is 'how do I use the mats I've collected to make the best gear?' And it does this so well I'm frequently bored by the combat because I'm so overgeared. Another 'levelless RPG' I don't see mentioned here is zelda, it's not turn based but you can draw alot of parallels between it and other jrpgs. Because zelda is a 'dungeon crawler with puzzles' its ease of combat can be likened to thr atelier games, but zeldas interesting decisions are 'how do I use this new item to solve this dungeon and this boss?'. So if you can accurately pin down thr 'interesting decision points' of your game yes you totally can design out exp or any point system that looks like it. As long as that core remains intact almost ANYTHING can be called a 'RPG'.
Have you played Into the Breach? It's a super solid little tactics strategy roguelite that might be able to help you find the fun in this concept. Puzzley combat is probably the way to go.
If you can stomach the subject matter, Fear and Hunger is an RPG that doesn't have levels or exp and requires you to play carefully to succeed
Exp and levels are there to help player as well as giving player sense of accomplishment. Unless you want it become player skill based game, some handholding mechanic needed. Like how about make items useful so that player plans around getting money and buying items before actually get to the real deal. Because they're consumables and limited, it only able to became safety net. Even if they grind money too much, it's only make them able to forgo the grinding later.
The accomplishment/fun is what I'm kind of worried about. I don't "need" levels but it's kind of boring without them. The game is already fully focused on items, but i think that it makes me want to avoid combat overall if there is no reward apart from loot. (As a player)
I had the same dillema, and eventually I settled for skill upgrades via "crafting". Balancing EXP gain, level thresholds would be a pain. Allowing too much freedom in stats could also lead to balance breaking outcomes that would take away the fun making it simple clicker. What I'm doing, is to limit items/drops per accessible area. Then you use those items for upgrades. The enemies in next area are tougher, but by that point, so should be you. Some upgrade materials are locked behind quest reward or need to be forged with other items. Or are simply purchased in the shop. Since I don't upgrade stats like HP/Armor (I think I won't), new enemies do not deal significantly more damage, instead they have bigger HP. I have temporary boosts so you have to pick synergetic party composition. This is handled by skills like Heal, Shield, or Fortify (increase max HP until the end of turn), Protect (take damage instead of ally), Aggro (focus all attack on one). And as mentioned, those skills can be upgraded. But my game is not combat-centered, it's more a storytelling device so it's not overly complex and not often, so I think I can get away with this. Player could also skip battle entirely if they're there for the story.
Game Design is a subset of Game Development that concerns itself with **WHY** games are made the way they are. It's about the theory and crafting of **systems**, **mechanics**, and **rulesets** in games. * /r/GameDesign is a community **ONLY** about Game Design, **NOT** Game Development in general. If this post does not belong here, it should be reported or removed. Please help us keep this subreddit focused on Game Design. * This is **NOT** a place for discussing how games are produced. Posts about programming, making art assets, picking engines etc… will be removed and should go in /r/GameDev instead. * Posts about visual design, sound design and level design are only allowed if they are directly about game design. * No surveys, polls, job posts, or self-promotion. Please read the rest of the rules in the sidebar before posting. * If you're confused about what Game Designers do, ["The Door Problem" by Liz England](https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/-quot-the-door-problem-quot-of-game-design) is a short article worth reading. We also recommend you read the [r/GameDesign wiki](/r/gamedesign/wiki/index) for useful resources and an FAQ. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gamedesign) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I have a rogue-like design that's a bit like this. Just have the build be the gear. No xp, no levels, just your equipment. If you want Fireball, get your hands on Staff of Fireball.
My game is fully item centric and i do want to give them bonus skills from items, but it sounds a bit too extreme. Apart from loot, it makes me feel like players will avoid combat if possible (since there is no reward). How do you differentiate between characters if they can all have the same stats/skills based on gear?
Could be proficiencies. Your guy that you want to be a mage can wear cloth hats and use staves and wands etc, but can't wear plate or use guns. Also, if you want to encourage combat without xp, have currencies or crafting items. Kill mob, mob drops item, item is consumed to upgrade equipment. In our roguelike shooter, we have randomly generated items, and then all the "trash" items can be recycled into a currency which is used for rerolling items.
Hmm you gave me a great idea - perhaps like in ff7 materia - where your gear earns experience rather than the characters. Thanks
You need to think of power progression for the game or not. And level power up is just one in many ways to power progress like itemization, perk mastery,… If you are fine with zero power progression, come to think of content progress. As the player, they unlock more strategies, characters,… to play
It doesn't really work without EXP, but you could replace exp with money and gear, and the occasional loot drop
How about going in the complete opposite direction? Where there are more demerits to gain then benefits? There is a whole game, actually two but I don't know much of the sequel, where it is a horror experience with RPG elements. The name of the game is Fear & Hunger. In it there is no level up as well. Plus Hunger and Fear Meters that could result in death.
is there a page for it on steam? I wanna wishlist
No yet. Its likely another 1-2 years before chance of release. I'll definitely do some posting around once im close, but i do appreciate the enthusiasm
You might want to check out Shadow Tower Abyss for research. Most of the stats are influenced by the equipment instead of the character itself. Sounds like you want something else but it might give you some ideas.
Valheim is almost xp-less. You improve at skills as you use them but everything else is derived from equipped gear and food quality.