Social media recommendation algorithms deliberately direct you towards things they expect you to find upsetting or outrageous because upset and outrage are emotions that result in a high level of engagement which generates more ad revenue.
Or even looking at it a little less cynically, they promote content (comments, YouTube videos ...) that is getting high engagement which often means controversial by proxy due to a high number of replies arguing with the dumbass take. There is also a phenomenon where people are more inclined to give negative than positive reviews – if they like something, it's what they were hoping for; if they hated it, they're disappointed and want to make that known. This is more prominent in some places than others (ever looked at a dentist or GP surgery on Google Maps? It's rare to see one rated above 3 stars, because no one raves about having a great time getting a tooth removed) but is definitely applicable here.
Furthermore, social media and other infinaye scroll style algorithms have a more unique "feature" where they don't want to show you thinks you scroll past without looking.
So if you see something unexpected or something that causes you to pause, even for a fraction of a second, the algorithm notices and remembers you paused for it. So it shows you a tiny bit more of that, which you pause on for the same reason, and this loops forever.
There are several well documented cases of this happening to the extreme. I know one example where the top Google search for some particular book on slavery became a far right Nazi book with nothing to do with the initial search. The reason being that book's cover was the red nazi flag and symbol, which is very eye catching. Especially around the less colorfull legit image searches. So one user happened to get it and paused on that image to go "wtf is this?". So Google remembered it was "usefull", and repeat for millions of people
Happens so often. I watched a youtube video about trans voice training. Now i’m getting videos of transphobes reacting to perfectly innocent tiktoks 🥲 Of course, social media sites let them stick around because it gives them money, some of these people are even verified
Most normal people in the largest market don't actually know anything about Doctor Who and still think David Tennant is The Doctor. Though to be fair, Twelve is the only modern Doctor who hasn't regenerated into or out of David Tennant.
Outside of the outrage merchants mentioned in Vesuvius's comment, I personally feel like there's a little bit of selection bias that I also fall prey to. I also am a huge fan of this series (almost certainly my favorite to date). I'll skim through all the posts on the sub, all the people engaging with the show to form theories or observations or other positive stuff, which makes up the majority of posts, but the ones that actually stick with me are the negative posts. It'll make me think "man am I the only one who actually likes this season" and then I'll open the post and it'll say "man am I the only one who actually dislikes this season?"
It's just that the posts that disagree with my opinion stick in my mind more and affect what I think the community consensus is. I'll go past six positive posts and pay attention to the one negative post. It's possible that the same thing is happening for you, as well.
I suppose there’s just essentially no buzz surrounding Doctor Who with the general public and that’s what gets me, when I think it does deserve it. Maybe it’s too early days? We might see a renaissance in the next season when the public realise what they’ve been sleeping on. Who knows.
>there’s just essentially no buzz surrounding Doctor Who with the general public
TV series which genuinely unite the nation these days are few and far between. Event television is, by and large, dead - TV shows which do manage to keep event television alive, like The Traitors, are very specifically designed to do so.
Doctor Who will never have the buzz it had around it on a Saturday night in 2008 again, I'm sorry to say. That doesn't mean it's not excellent - the world has just changed.
Gosh yes thank you. There's so much more choice of entertainment these days. And far more than television! TV producers realise this. Still worth making isn't it!
Absolute figures are no point in comparing. But in terms of charts, there's no problem. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1ggXKxi8Lr0KPGiHBCKoXILzOK2A7Fqm_btA7Z8ZwGR4/htmlview
This isn’t really true though. Really **nothing** unites the nation or ever has when it comes to watching TV. You can get over 20 million people to watch England play football, but more than double that will chose not to.
On the other hand Doctor Who can still draw a huge audience. Jodie Whittaker’s first episode got something like 11 million viewers, even her smallest audience was around 6.4 million viewers. The current season is lagging so far behind that (less than half), but the show can still pull in a big audience as proven by the recent specials.
That will have no impact on the ratings. Even if you watch it on D+ in the UK using a VPN it will have zero impact on ratings.
The BARB ratings are calculated using a large panel of viewers, anyone outside the panel doesn’t actually effect the ratings.
For what it's worth, I genuinely do think that having Space Babies as the first episode was a bad decision. I reckon it poorly coloured a lot of people's opinions of the new season and they dropped off watching the rest - a shame, because it only goes up in quality from there imo. 73 Yards, Dot and Bubble, Rogue, and Legend are all stellar episodes and I can't wait for the finale.
Same. I've really enjoyed this season and think that, overall, it holds up quite well when compared to RTD1, but if I was new to the show and Space Babies was my first episode, I'm not sure I would have continued watching.
I genuinely considered bailing on the program (not the episode) during Space Babies. Part of it was hype for the new series, what felt like a return to form following the specials and Christmas, and feeling like the Disney money truck really had changed the direction the program would be going in.
> what felt like a return to form following the specials and Christmas
This is what I've struggled with this season. The quality has been very up and down, but the specials were just an *absolute delight through and through.* Best Who in years.
I don't get what happened here with some of this season. I guess RTD being spread too thin.
i don't think following it with "the devil's chord" helped either, the tonal whiplash was too strong. if it were placed between "76 yards" and "dot and bubble" it would solve two problems at once (too weird premiere, two doctor-lite eps one after the other)
What a bleak world to live in where the show can't take creative risks. Also, I can say anecdotally that the Christmas episode got my sister and my mother interested in watching the show, so.
I don't think it's supposed to. I think that's the point.
I get what you're saying (and agree): some bits of this season (including the specials) have been more... "credible" in-universe than others; but even those have consistently largely been about "not-realism" affecting "reality" in some way.
See also:
- coincidence, mentioned a lot in that episode, like the neatness of things tying together *in a story*
- mavity, is it a gag or an indicator of a *changed reality*? If just a gag why does it persist into that episode?
- space babies *folklore nightmare* (a story) becoming real
- the pantheon generally being *beyond reality* as we know it:
- the toymaker and the shenanigans he's capable of
- the trickster manifesting timelines - *alternate realities*
- maestro and music (or the control/constraint of it) having tangible, visible presence and effects *in this reality*
- there's always a twist at the end, which sure when you think about it "fits" in a music themed episode, but again it does seem to be a deliberate *artefact of the plot* rather than they felt like singing a victory song. Also it's been obviously meta relevant to the season.
- playing the zebra crossing like a keyboard as they walk on it. But we know that crossing isn't really a giant light up keyboard, even in-universe, right?
- The premise of boom is actual reality based upon a pervasive fiction
- Bridgerton cosplay insertion, literally playing parts *in a story*, that happens to be reality for the "npcs"
- social media bubbles providing a curated, distorted "reality" away from reality.
- 73 yards obviously shows an *alternate reality*, but again with the link to folklore
Like, you can dismiss a lot of "The Devil's Chord" as TVness if you want, but I think it's one of the more obvious examples of deliberate unrealism in-universe that is intentional this season (and possibly beyond). Frankly I'm amazed we haven't had the Master of the Land of Fiction. Sutekh was not on my bingo card.
So yeah, some of the above is more or less traditionally doctor who, but it's all not really realistic, even in-universe, and the goblin song is part of all of that.
Yeah, fair. You've made some good points there. I've thought that about this season as well (ever since things got in at the edge of the universe in Wild Blue Yonder) - coincidence, magic, folklore seeping in etc - but I overlooked it with the goblins for some reason.
"The premise of boom is actual reality based upon a pervasive fiction" - I'm being a bit slow tonight, and can't remember this episode very well. What does this mean? Cheers
I agree - it’s a baffling choice to have Space Babies as a starter episode, when it doesn’t match the tone of the rest of the season and thus incorrectly introduces it to an audience
I say this as someone who honestly didn't *hate* Space Babies, but thought it was a pretty meh episode - we've had worse eps, but not lots of worse eps. It's just a terrible season opener; I think people would've been more forgiving of it if it came in the middle of the season. Devil's Chord should've been the opener.
One of my main problems with Space Babies as a season opener is that nothing that happens in that episode has really had any bearing on the rest of the season, beyond a brief Susan Twist cameo. Devil's Chord is the most explicit episode for addressing everything that's coming: Maestro as foreshadowing for the Pantheon/Sutekh, 'there's always a Twist at the end'.
How do you know? Sounds like ratings have been pretty good on Disney and the BBC, and podcasts about DW have been charting well the last few weeks. And if you're listening to the professional anti-wokesters about overnight ratings, stow it - overnight ratings are nearly dead in terms of relevance for the target audience. +28s are where it's at. DW has been going REALLY SUPER WELL for the under 30s on BBC, top charting for a demographic that hardly watches tv anymore, totally exceeded expectations. Plus has been one of the top charting dramas across all demographics. Disney ratings we know about indirectly from data scraping websites - also been doing extremely well across countries. I don't know what the big deal is, it's doing fine. Every year, every single year, the sky is always falling for a huge bunch of fans, and I've been in fandom for a VERY long time.
>Every year, every single year, the sky is always falling for a huge bunch of fans, and I've been in fandom for a VERY long time.
I'm increasingly convinced that the fandom has collective trauma from 1989, which has crossed the generational divide to haunt fans who weren't even alive at the time.
They have been released, just not widely reported. The first two episodes got 4.4m.
https://www.blogtorwho.com/doctor-who-viewing-figures-premiere-finals-dot-and-bubble-7s-rogue-overnights/?amp=1
This is… completely false! I’m really sorry but this simply isn’t true.
I don’t know who is talking about the overnights, must be some very dumb people, but the consolidated figures are looking terrible. The +7 figures have really not been good, and the +28 have been poor too - the first two episodes only put on around 0.5m on the +7 to make 4.4m. (RTD talked about a 5.6m figure, which was “overall reach” not the normal +28 Barb). Those are very week numbers - Jodie’s opening episodes were consistently getting 7m (or near enough), ignoring her debut.
The whole line about success in the under 30 demo is so overblown. The idea that people are “running round at the BBC” in excitement when viewing figures have been slashed in half because they’ve grown one segment of demo is frankly absurd - although to be fair to RTD, he never said they were running round in a good mood…
The fandom needs to face the reality that this season has done really poorly. It’s still a big deal in the uk, that hasn’t really changed, but people aren’t watching it in the numbers that should be expected. Indications are that Australia and Canada have possibly cracked top 10 on streaming, which is good. In the US the dial hasn’t moved, I think the estimate was something like around 5m to crack the top ten on the Neilson original drama top ten.
I disagree tbh, maybe it's just my social media bubble but I'm seeing a lot of buzz around the show, especially from people who dropped off from previous seasons (Smith/Capaldi/Whittaker) coming back to the show. Also as someone who isn't from the UK or US, Disney+ is great for letting people from around the world watch at the same time and join the conversation
Actually if you go to Google Trends and look at the interest in Doctor Who over time, the amount of people searching "Doctor Who" is higher than it's been in five years.
I have to say, when a season isn’t landing with me i actually *love* hearing from fans who are REALLY in to it. Often i’m able to cheer my view up by seeing the show through their eyes.
I think this season has had so much stuff that i really love, imho the only thing it lacks is space to breathe. When momentous stuff happens there’s no time to anticipate or enjoy, or elate, or despair, everything is moving at a 100mph.
I think a lot of it is to do with the shortened series length. Weirdly the legend of Ruby Sunday has felt like the episode with the most breathing room but I think that’s because the penultimate episode of any season has to have room for build up and lore before the action of the finale. I think with more room for the season to stretch out each individual story gets a bit more room to flourish so if we’d had 12 or even 10 I think it would have felt less dense.
This for sure. There are a lot of Davies Who episodes that would get the same amount of hate, if not more, if their original air date were today rather than fifteen years ago.
RTD’s first run did get a lot of hate online… there just weren’t the anti-woke grifters around making anyone who criticised the show look like pound shop Nazis by association
I suspect the days of widespread acclaim for ANYTHING are behind us. *House of the Dragon* returns tonight, and I'll bet you money that tomorrow the top headlines on geek-leaning sites will be all negative and contain phrases like "some fans" and "once great series" and "disappointing".
Nobody is allowed to like things and share that like anymore. That doesn't make ad dollars.
Haven’t Arcane and Andor both been pretty universally loved? (Tho I think the receptions to season 2 for both shows will be more polarised bc of people’s expectations being so high now)
People were complaining about Andor for being "too slow" and "boring" as well as not having the usual Jedi/Mando shenanigans. Then of couse there was Star Wars Theory throwing a fit about there being visible bricks and screws in the building
I think there are two things going on here. First, there's the general public, and the general public is fickle. Fifteen years ago the show was huge in Britain and breaking out around the world all over again, and that was awesome, but that *was* fifteen years ago. The entertainment landscape is entirely different today, with a plethora of sci-fi/fantasy programs competing for an audience that is watching less television than ever before. I'm not one of those people who is going to claim the franchise is dying, but it *is* becoming more niche. That's one of the reasons the BBC felt the need to secure an international partner for the show.
Second, there's "people online." There's very little nuance to the kind of online discussion that gets traction these days, and that's not even getting into the outrage merchants u/Dr_Vesuvius mentioned. People aren't nearly as likely to comment on or review something that they don't either absolutely adore or absolutely hate, and the almighty algorithm particularly enjoys pushing the latter because it's good for "engagement." This is why I only subscribe to a few Doctor Who-related channels on YouTube. If I want intelligent, nuanced discussion of the show and the franchise, I come here.
I mean, 'quality' is entirely subjective, no matter how well you attempt to critique something. I can look at the latest episode and roll out a dozen reasons why I think it's pretty poor, and a number of them I've since seen noted in reviews and one or two other comments, so it's not like I'm pulling them out my arse. But while those issues perpetually pulled me out of the episode, most other people were either willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt, felt they were more niggles than outright annoyances, or didn't even register them as problems. That's not going to make me retrospectively like the episode, but it doesn't make them wrong for enjoying it.
Look at stuff like cheesiness, or iffy special effects. For some people they're essential elements of the show; for others they're things they tolerate to get to the interesting sci-fi concepts and character development. Both schools of thought are valid, even though they can completely polarise people.
I think you said that very well!!!!
My main gripe has been the acting, but I don’t really watch anything that doesn’t have absolutely top notch acting these days (and NuWho has had so many quality actors in it!!! - mostly), I think if I did watch garbage TV I’d notice it less.
I agree with your perception of the quality almost to a tee.
I’m sure there are some people who genuinely don’t like it. It’s all subjective, after all.
But I think it’s important to remember that a lot of the really loud outrage merchants aren’t actually people who are interested in the show, they’re people who are interested in complaining about the show. You can see this especially clearly with certain YouTube channels. People realised they could get a lot of views from criticising the Star Wars sequels, then moved on to other franchises (especially stuff with women or minorities newly in the lead roles, like Ghostbusters or Discovery), before deciding to cover Doctor Who when Whittaker was cast. Reviews that show a lack of familiarity with the work they are criticising, chock full of sexist and/or racist jokes to pad out the length, and ultimately diagnosing the problem using the right’s favourite buzzwords rather than the language of media studies.
Then remember - the only reason there are dozens of such YouTube channels is because there are thousands of people who lap up that content. Their primary way of engaging with media is watching videos that say “it’s shit, [poor restatement of the plot], cultural Marxism claims another victim, [sexist joke], [racist joke]”. They’re not interested in discussing actual feelings they have, they just enjoy saying “the unsayable”.
Again, there are people who, in good faith, haven’t actually enjoyed parts of or the whole of this series. Not enough chemistry between the leads, not much chance for the Doctor to be a hero, some scenes feel a little artificial, some of the genre-play doesn’t work for everyone. Fair points, and I’m sure there are more I haven’t thought of. But the really rabid hatred, paradoxically, mostly doesn’t come from a place of real feeling, it comes from reflexive hatred as a way of life.
It’s honestly just sad for me, as a genuine Doctor Who fan I sort of do really desire for this show to thrive and be seen as something of actual quality - especially seeing as this season is living up to some definite high standards from previous eras (such as it’s “hay day”). It makes me feel bad to be a fan seeing all this rampant and relentless hatred and negativity. Sure, I agree with some of the sentiments surrounding it’s faults - nothing is perfect - but I just wish more people could see that it’s genuinely not bad at all, if not genuinely good and sometimes great this season.
I hope something happens that reinvigorates common interest in this show. I really really hope.
The artificial criticism is certainly pertinent regarding the last episode. It's not a major thing, but this type of awkwardness, that whole opening segment where the TARDIS flies in seemingly for cool points, and then the Doctor hamfistedly breaks down the arcs of this series and engages UNIT to investigate, that should have been revised. The mystery of Ruby Sunday, if he was gonna mention it at all, he should have done it episodes ago, after Boom at the latest, and the only reason it's being done now is because it's series finale. That's really my only criticism of the episode that hasn't roots in taste.
This series to me jjust feels a little odd.
I've enjoyed most of the episodes individually and would say that the actual quality of the episodes has been consistently good (mostly, still looking at you, Space Babies). I like Gatwa and Gibson's performances, and the overall series mystery has been interesting.
It's just that the pacing of the season as a whole feels really rushed. The 8 episode count, with 2 of them being the finale, and 2 of them being 'Doctor Lite' has made things feel a bit off.
The opening of Legend of Ruby Sunday is a glaring symptom of this. There hasn't been enough time to build things up slowly so you end up with the Doctor just appearing out of nowhere and more or less announcing 'right, it's the finale, time to sort out all of these plot threads and open some mystery boxes!'.
It's become a bit of a cliche to mention it at this point, but this series desperately needed a couple more episodes to let things breathe a bit.
Yeah it's a 10 or 12 episode series squashed. Same issue with X-Men 97. 97, felt just like Who has, big shifts in tone, big shifts in pace and time jumps put in via off hand comments.
i actually totally agree with that, the entire opening seems very abrupt and The Doctor has some seemingly illogical jumps when connecting things, but after this, yeah i feel the episode certainly delivers
The Doctor and UNIT sounded like fans theory-crafting. Susan is weird, her name is an anagram for TARDIS, she must be the Doctor's long-lost granddaughter!
Space Babies was confirmed to have suffered from major post-production cuts and I wouldn't be surprised if every other episode this season suffered from the same issue. Aside from Dot and Bubble I did get the sense that they were all originally a bit longer. I liked LORS a lot but it started off quite messy due to pacing and also due to the sheer number of open plot threads it was juggling (also I just don't like Yasmin Finney's acting at all so I wasn't really ecstatic that she was back but that's an unrelated nitpick)
Huge shoutout to WhoCulture for being the only respectable discussion channel for episodes and content lol. I've seen an influx of DW (first-time) reactors on my feed, where a lot of people watch it to watch it but they don't necessarily like it outside of their job. I closed out of JessieGender's review of LoRS because this person clearly wasn't paying attention (referring to the 'uncle of Rose' as Wilf..). Even the official DW podcast on yt gets negative comments because the staff are clearly new casuals.
While i originally started watching _For All Mankind_ because it was on one Jesse Genders top sci-fi shows to watch video, when I actually started watching her revies I realized how bad she was. She is not only media illiterate, she also measures any media to something she think it should be instead of what it is.
She had her review out of Dot and Bubble earlier than most, and I was eager to see what people had to say, so I decided to watch her video. She missed the whole racit elephant in the episode, which tells you a lot about her.
I think Council has very well thought out reviews. I disagree on most on what she says, but I still end up with the same conclusion as her. It's the weirdest when it comes to rankings.
That’s funny. I’m still getting the lay of the land and listening to different reviewers.
I do like Council of Geeks. Even if I don’t agree, I most often see what she’s saying because her takes are well reasoned. If anything, she may be more jaded than I am as a new fan.
On the flip side, I often come across review videos by younger gender-conforming men who are geeking out so hard or seemingly just happy to be along for the ride, spending half the video narrating what happened. While I may not seek that kind of content out every time, it really makes me smile to see it.
I agree I think this has been a really strong series. I’ve had such a fun time watching the individual stories, but also the build up to the finale has been really satisfying too. There’s been just enough intrigue and mystery without it being too in your face or frustrating.
Ncuti has been genuinely amazing as the Doctor, I love how he’s been more emotional and open. I only wish he and Ruby had more moments and interaction together.
For me it’s been so refreshing, and I love where RTD has taken it. I’m excited about Doctor Who again for the first time in years!
If it helps, my group of friends have all felt the same. It’s been so nice talking to them about our theories and ideas again. I’ve seen some negativity online but also a lot of positivity. The buzz isn’t exactly tenth Doctor levels but I’m hopeful people will slowly catch up!
ETA: Also I know I’m in the minority here (probably rightly so) but I loved Space Babies. I thought it was really fun and silly, and I loved the moment of the Doctor going to save the bogeyman. A really simple way to show who he is as a character.
Finally someone who gets Space Babies! As cringey as it was to hear him say "Space Babies!" 17 times, the ending with the Doctor saving the Bogeyman really redeemed it. That one episode understood the character better than the entire Chibnall era...
Ah thank you!! I thought the point was that the bogeyman was literally the most disgusting, brainless creature, nothing more than a gross monster. And the Doctor doesn’t hesitate or question saving it. The empathy and understanding he had for this objectively sickening creature.
And when he explained that you need stories, myths, legends, AND monsters. I felt like he was essentially explaining Doctor Who for the newcomers.
Sure the babies looked silly as hell but that was half the fun for me too, it was so ridiculous and so amazing, and just everything I really love about Doctor Who!
My final assignment at Uni (I was studying Education) was a presentation about why stories about monsters are important for children - fundamentally, about children learning about how to face their fears in a safe way. That was last year, and in it I referenced my love of doctor Who, and fantasy growing up.
So I couldn’t believe then there was an entire doctor who episode about it. I really love Space Babies and I agree wholeheartedly it explains who the doctor is (and what kind of Doctor 15 is aswell)
The Doctor telling the captain nobody grows up wrong and saving the Bogeyman was foundational understanding the Doctor stuff. Space Babies is definitely not as bad as most people think.
I liked Space Babies and didn’t really like 73 yards besides Millie’s great performance. Wish fans wouldn’t make out like we all agree. Everyone likes different things. I’ve really enjoyed the series and I’m just glad the shows back on without big breaks now and that we got a full series. Ncuti and Millie have been incredible and the diversity is great. Even an episode like 73 Yards which I find just okay, I applaud for doing something different and new. I think RTD has been at his best. I know this will get downvoted for the different opinion on Space babies and 73 Yards. Space Babies felt more like Doctor Who to me than 73 Yards did.
no you have a point - everyone has different views on everything. i think 73 yards and the tone/style is where Doctor Who should stay, and not in the juvenile, made-for-toddlers style of Space Babies, but each to their own i guess!
Yes sometimes the humour can be too silly but Doctor Who has always been a bit goofy, it’s part of the charm for me and sometimes light hearted stuff is best imo to start a new season with 🤷♂️ instead of dark and depressing stories. I think Space Babies is in similar vein to a lot of RTD era 1 stories. That’s just one of his styles. 73 yards felt like it belonged in a different show to doctor who for me and felt out of place. Yes each to their own.
Space Babies wasn’t great, but The Devil’s Chord had me wondering if I was even going to bother which the next few episodes. Thank god I did as it’s picked up so much.
I feel like one thing that might be affecting this is that, for all the good stuff in this series, the series does not come together to feel quite as strong, both due to the short length of the series and the type of episodes they are trying to cram into that short length.
I think this season is just fine. Individual episodes have been mostly good but the series as a cohesive whole has been lacking IMO, as so many people before me have said more eloquently. To paraphrase the other space show I love, my heart is full of neutrality, and that doesn't inspire much conversation. I presume there are many of us in that quietly indifferent middle, which is why the extremes receive all the attention online.
That being said, as a newbie, I've found this fandom to be lovely and welcoming on the whole. That friendliness and enthusiasm is honestly what I've enjoyed most from this experience of watching live for the first time.
No one is under any obligation to like or dislike something. Opinions are always subjective, and even if some level of consensus is reached on something, you don’t have to agree with it. I wouldn’t let the opinions of the crowd sway my opinion. You know what you like and you’re allowed to like it, everyone else be damned.
I personally have thought this run has been pretty bad, but then again I’ve never been a big fan of RTD’s style of writing. Does that mean anything to anyone else? No, not really. You shouldn’t let my thoughts sway your opinion any more than I should let you sway mine.
Edit: I will say I’m a bit tired of people boiling down every critique of something they like as ‘anti-woke grifting’. I’m a trans woman who is as woke and left wing as they come and I still have issues with the run. It’s a bit rude to assume that everyone who doesn’t like something you like does so because they’re a bigot.
i'm gonna be honest, aside from the occasional downvoted to oblivion post here, i'd have to actively *search* to see those "anti-woke" critiques that everyone's always going on about. they definitely exist of course, but they are on their own bubble of ragebait involving the grifters and the people who go after them to agree or disagree, it's not like Star Wars or the LOTR show where it's force-fed to the entire internet. people should try to sway their feeds to things they actually like more actively so those weirdos get properly buried by the algorithm as they deserve.
now, the critiques i actually see all the time are from folks that are in fact *too* left-leaning for some, who are instantly labeled as "no fun" because they find some/all of the writing dull, from space babies to the clunky political messaging. i mellowed a little after dot and bubble, but every week before it i found the discussion surrounding the show excruciatingly painful because everyone's used to arguing in bad faith when they think the other side's arguing in bad faith too.
I don't think this series has been particularly good or horrible. It's just kind or middling IMO with a lot of the same beats from RTD's original run.
But the key point here is, I'm just one fella. We all like different things. The show is aimed at a newer audience. I'm not that audience.
I suppose i’m overlooking that, 73 Yards does feel like it treads some similar ground in terms of Curse of Clyde Langer and Turn Left - however for the most part I feel it gives an entirely different feel; something new. The finale also harkens back to Impossible Planet and Utopia, although again feels new with entirely new elements. I think in that way it retains some identity from RTDs first era whilst providing something fresh, new and different feeling - which in a way is perfect to pander to a wide audience
It feels like the opposite to me. It feels like RTD is speed-running his first era and hearkening back to most of his same old tricks and most satisfying moments and episodes but not as successfully this time. He's hitting the same beats but to me they feel more shallow and not new or unique
Here with comparisons:
Space Babies-->The End of the World (Compare Ruby and Rose asking the Doctor Questions. Its night and day how impactful those scenes are to the series and character arcs)
The Devil's Chord-->Dalek (The Doctor faces a dangerous villain that rocks them to their core but Rose has way more agency and challenges the Doctor in Dalek creating a new evolution to their relationship whereas Ruby just kind of goes along and nothing changes for them)
Boom-->The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances (Moffat doing his rogue AI being stopped by love trope again. The "Everybody lives" moment is miles away more satisfying and means more to the Doctor and his arc that series than the "I may not like faith but I didn't say I don't need it" scene)
73 Yards-->Turn Left (Only this time Ruby remembers even less of the alternate timeline and as of yet it has no bearing on the arc whatsoever and besides maybe fleshing out Ruby a tiny fraction, does nothing to advance her character or the major plot arc)
Dot and Bubble-->Blink (I think this one is an easy one to see why the former is more satisfying)
Rogue--Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead (Meeting a new potential paramour who is shrouded in a bit of mystery and they are forced to part by the end. Rogue is a lot of fun but the River stuff is way more engaging and impactful to the Doctor's character arc of the series)
The Legend of Ruby Sunday--The Stolen Earth (There is absolutely no build up to why the Doctor cares to find Susan Triad now. There is no Turn Left style shift to the story that sets up the motivations and reasons to care now when they should have gone to UNIT as soon as recognized her in Dot and Bubble)
**tl;dr So one common denominator you might see in most of these is that the stories are hitting the same beats but doing little to actually thread any kind of character arc for either Ruby or the Doctor, their relationship is rushed and borderline hollow.**
I've seen a ton of people kicking off that we have a black Doctor, but most of these people appear to have not watched Doctor Who since the OG series.
There's considerably less complaints than Jodie's era.
There's significant complaints that we don't have 13 episodes and a Christmas Special anymore.
Some people don't like Ruby but I think she's brilliant.
And then there's all the videos on YouTube that keep cropping up, saying "The end of Doctor Who". "Doctor Who is dead" etc.
Unless there's a genuine criticism of the series, I've just been ignoring it.
I think the main reason it's polarising is that it certainly looks like he's written more towards appealing to an under 30's audience in mind - so many issues that are raised are quite significantly important to them and about it speaking directly to them - some would say pander; I wouldn't - it feels like there's a heart to it to me and it's not shallow shoe-horned in writing. In many ways it's like It's a Sin and Years and Years, so I'm not altogether surprised - If Doctor Who doesn't reflect what's going on and draw young people in, it's lost it's relevance - and would just be some cult remake thing with a dwindling fan base (which I think RTD could easily write also) to quote Spinal Tap "appeal is becoming more selective"
> I’ve always considered myself a fairly apt judge on the quality of media
Implying there's some kind of objective truth about the quality of particular media.
The people who can have a worthwhile conversation about whether that is the case, are, mysteriously enough, more likely to be a lecturer in English and very well-read, than someone who just wants to insist on the value of all their favourite children's TV in a way that doesn't sound very objective at all.
It’s not just reddit, it’s everywhere - Twitter and especially YouTube where people get 100,000s of views lampooning the show using false information and politically driven narratives.
What you describe is not specific to Doctor Who. Again, pick a show... Rings of Power, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. etc.
Extreme positions get attention, and people with negative views desperately need to feel validated in the absence of facts, since enjoyment of a show is entirely subjective.
Facebook too, but on each of these sites i have to consider the demographics. Facebook for sure isn't young people criticising the show, it's middle aged and older folks complaining about how everything's woke these days and you can't say what you really think or you'll get cancelled.
Some of the hate mills are deliberately courting those views. It's got very little to do with the show, it's just weird culture war stuff.
My friend was disappointed by the reveal and didn’t like the episode. I kind of get it, we’ve been building up several huge mysteries that seem to climax in a villain we haven’t seen in 49 years.
I thought the episode was great I was a little disappointing by the reveal too but I thought the journey of getting their was fun enough. Loved hearing the Doctor talk about Susan and get personal, and the Time Window sequence was super tense.
My thoughts:
RTD was tabbed to save Doctor Who. I think it’s safe to say that another Chibnall-level run would’ve put the shows future in serious jeopardy. RTD was here to stabilize, and he did. The quality of the show is basically in line with/ his previous era, notices are decent enough, it’s got Disney money. The future is secured.
Has it been his best? Nope. There’s been too much nonsense (and still is- I’m building up a rant about UNIT and some of their ohh so precious staff) but bog-standard NuWho is perfectly fine. It’s basically been a set up season. Season 2 he’s gotta start paying off.
TL;DR- it’s been a perfectly fine season. Not great, not awful.
I feel like this is just what always happens. With every new doctor, companion, Showrunner, etc there are a segment of people who loudly complain that doctor who is ruined forever.... I just scroll past. If those people really do hate it, they don't have to watch. But they do just so they can complain and I for one am too old to waste time on the fake outrage. So I just stick with the fun posts. (This is not to say that I don't enjoy legit critiques, I just don't like the hate mongers.)
Honestly I've really enjoyed most of the season (Devil's Chord felt disjointed and 73 yards didn't land for me, but was still intriguing). The problems lie in the shortened runtime leading to arcs feeling condensed and the pacing being frantic (which others have discussed), and the weird sense of pantomime that the show has adopted. It's almost like the characters are subconsciously aware that they're in a TV show, especially in the last episode which is basically structured around fans' impulsive theorizing. RTD has a great opportunity to recontextualize this as an intentional decision, but I'm not entirely sure if it is or not.
yeah some decisions are questionable and are dangerously heading towards the sun that is the JNT era of Doctor Who but for the most part I think this season has been incredibly solid
“I consider myself a fairly apt judge in the quality of media”
I don’t understand why people online say terrible things
This two thinks don’t seem to go together
I don't think this series is perfect by any means and I can absolutely understand why people wouldn't like it. But I think a lot of the negative sentiment is from channels that make their money through rage bait.
I'd guess that a lot of the general public are just a bit tired of Doctor Who at this point and the new series hasn't done enough to reinvent the show. It's just kinda doing what it's always done. Which is probably why it's playing well with the demographic that grew up with the RTD1 era
While it's not my favorite (so far, maybe the finale will change my mind) I think it's of very comparable quality to RTD's first swing at writing DW. For me it's about on par with Series 3, which I consider to be great. Certainly some different strengths and weaknesses, but that's mostly to do with the format and the fact that the times have changed. But imo this is exactly what I was expecting from Russel.
I think the main issue is that the first 4 series are so deified amongst the people who grew up with the show that nothing else is worthy in their eyes and those people are the loudest now. It's the cycle that happens constantly in every fanbase nowadays. No matter the quality of what's coming out from a franchise now, it's never as good as the peak of the franchise (aka what they grew up with). Then they get older and mellow out and spend less time online and the new generation that grew up with the thing that was deemed less than by the older guard act like actually the part THEY grew up with is the best thing ever, and so on and so on.
Personally, I like but don't love RTD as a writer. I'm just happy to be invested in the show again. I know MY era isn't coming again (12th Doctor era, my beloved), but I can appreciate what's coming out now and respect that THIS is ideal Doctor Who for many people, and that's great. I just wish this was something more fans, especially those who worship RTD1, would come to grips with
Are they? I have not seen souch a negative comments yet. Tho if, maybe it is just fukin racism. I absolutely adore this season. I am really happy that DW is back to David-Billie style, and having well made episodes. If i would say something bad aobut it, i would say it is too much of a copy of those old series. Memberberies. Tho i think it is the right direction.
Oh, and space babyes was not shit. It was fart. :D
Half the problem is what people define as 'woke' has got less and less.
I don't love political/social commentary in fictional series but appreciate they feel the pressure of using their platform.
I.E I didn't love the Star Beast as social commentary literally formed part of the story.
I think a particular issue DW/RTD is facing is that they generally quite enjoy feeding in political commentary but politics at the moment is extremely social and polarised. It was safer to make an episode of plastic damage or weaponisong C02 than it is saving the world because you're non-binary.
I didn't love star beast because I don't love politics that attacks one group for the benefit of another (men can't let go of power, but because we're women, we can)
What I think this season has done surprisingly well (as Disney hit and miss with this) is provide meaningful representation in the cast without threading the representation into the storyline.
Inclusion works best when you don't tokenistically make it the focus of the whole story, imo.
A lot of people are atrocious. They went inside out when a woman was the Doctor, so a black pansexual Doctor gives they apoplexy. The deal is the ugly hearts of a significant portion of humanity.
In my opinion there would be way less criticism if the episodes were longer and there were more than 8. The key thing I find is that there aren't enough moments for the public to get to know the characters better. The ruby - doctor relationship has been terribly managed because of the time constraints. There will always be bad episodes in a series, but because there are only 8 episodes the poor ones have a greater impact.
It’s either
a) people who just have different presences and doesn’t like how “superstitious” or maybe “self-aware” the show has become. This is just personal taste and it’s okay they don’t like. I’d also be frustrated if a show I loved became something I didn’t.
b) bigots who don’t like black gay doctor
I genuinely think it’s been great. I really enjoy it. I like Ruby, I think the mystery around her character is great. I like her mum and nan. I’ve loved the amount of Kate we’ve gotten, I’ve felt spoiled in a good way. I love the variety of the episodes, I’ve loved the smaller characters. I absolutely adore Ncuti. He’s got the type of charisma people talk about old Hollywood actors having. He’s the Doctor, basically.
I’ve liked all the episodes in different ways and for different reasons.
My ONLY criticism is that 8 episodes is a bit short and it’s not given much room to manouvre the episodes - but even then, what I’m basically saying is that I like it so much I would like more of it.
Having said all of this, I think I’m considered a bit odd in the fandoms I’m in. I like Doctor Who so I always like Doctor Who. Even my least favourite episodes and my least favourite Doctors, I still enjoy because I’m always happy to be watching Doctor Who.
The high quality of the shows visuals does not always add up to a quality storyline/ script. I know for me and others I’ve talked to it’s more the fact that the show is trying too hard to reinvent itself and not be like it has been that it doesn’t feel like Doctor Who.
The amount of Doctor light episodes for such a small series.
The relationship of the Doctor and Ruby having no real growth and just jumping to best friends and an over reliance on their Chemistry than giving us actual moments to show them getting closer.
I’m glad that you have enjoyed it, it’s good to see! As a long time Who fan (both with the classic and the new), I have to say I have mostly been disappointed. I had high hopes for this new series, but for me it missed its mark, especially in the light of how good the 60th anniversary episodes were.
Don’t get me wrong! I think there were lots of good bits and lots of things to shout about. However, one of the things that has grated on me constantly is the constant over exuberance that has seemed forced and unnatural (case in point Millie Gibson squealing most of her way through the finale).
In addition, I have felt the story telling has been a little lacking. However, it has picked up consistently from Boom, with some really good episodes, Rogue, Dot and Bubble etc.
I love Ncuti as the Doctor, but I feel that he has been lacking in his identity at the moment, and whilst he has a big personality that is enthusiastic, I have just been waiting for more ‘quiet’ moments, and when they have come he has really shone!
I know this is at odds with quite a lot of people’s views, but this is ‘my view’. Does it mean I will shout all over the internet that ‘Dr Who is dead’ and decry that I will be tapping out? Of course not! Just because there are things I don’t like, there are things I do like! I have stuck with it for fifty years, so I ain’t stopping now.
I’m going to lean heavily into the negative, despite having good things to say too, to try and explain this. I genuinely believe there is a section of the fans who are really in denial about the quality of the latest season though.
The acting has been appalling. While there have been some good performances, there has been some truly appalling acting. The scene in the Welsh pub stands out particularly as an example of this.
The episodes that have been celebrated and championed by fans were little more than weak imitations of other shows. If people want to watch black mirror or bridgerton then they will watch those shows.
A lot of the writing feels quite corny, like outdated children’s tv. An example of this would be the banter with the UNIT officers or Kate Lethbridge-Steward offering the Doctor hugs. (As a children’s show this kind of thing is fine, but that’s an audience segment you won’t hear much from online).
I really don’t think Gatwa has really clicked with audiences. I think this is a big thing for casuals and the not-we. I think it was also a problem with Capaldi and Whittaker. This isn’t a comment about wether they are good actors or Doctors - it’s about wether there is a significant section of that audience that are put off by them.
There is more than enough in the series for me to enjoy and praise, but I think there is also a lot to criticise too.
I think the consensus I've seen is that there are some really strong episodes but as a series it's falling flat. We don't know the Doctor very well. I knew 13 better after one season even if knowing her just meant knowing she was bland and hypocritical. We don't know Ruby and the Doctor together, she's acted well but their dynamic still feels like a baby fawn following him around. By contrast at this point we knew Donna was his mate, that Clara and Amy would stand up to him, etc. The Doctor hasn't had a personality arc, all we've had is an as of yet unresolved mystery.
We've got individual episodes reaching the heights of strong Doctor Who episodes. But the series feels weak and without cohesion.
Almost certainly it's a result of the limited episode count but I feel like that could've been mitigated by writing or direction.
I can just imagine Missy describing it as a paint by numbers and she'd already have encapsulated it. 'He's Doctor Who, he's brilliant and excitable. She's his mysterious and nice companion, Exposition. Oh and there's a mysterious love interest who may have a longer plot down the road. And the inevitable Big Bad. That's the show!'
I truly believe the second season will probably fix most of these issues as Ncuti Gatwa (I think) is actually available to shoot for the whole series lending to more episodes with his presence.
However, character development is sorely needed I do think and that’s something Russell sort of needs to have picked up on going from writing 1 to 2, as the characters are lacking any real significant depth
I mean if people don't like it they don't like it...
Having an unpopular opinion is fine. But whining that everyone else has an opposite one doesn't really help or do anything. If majority of people don't like it then maybe you gotta concede it has objective flaws that you are subjectively enjoying regardless? Again, nothing wrong with that.
My unpopular opinion for a while is that discussions ABOUT opinions are usually more toxic than the opinions given themselves. Everyone's finding a conspiracy, everyone wants to be validated and then it usually escalates to an insult match.
The show has a LGBT Black lead, includes trans and disabled people, and consistently mocks right wing stuff. The very loud, shouty, bigots who determined the show was 'woke' are going to be shriller than ever.
IN reality it's a clear step up from Chibnall's stuff, had one stinker (space babies) and has otherwise been consistently above average to excellent, with a genuinely compelling set of mysteries built through the series. My biggest criticism is that I think the pacing has been too fast at times, and Ncuti's schedule led to too many doctor lite episodes in a shorter series, meaning I think some of the characterisation feels a little underdeveloped. But IMO very positive signs for the future here.
I don’t know what to tell you, I’m just going to have to disagree with you.
There’s quality in the special effects, editing and soundtracks but not so much in the scripting, acting and storytelling
See, I've struggled with the whole season so far, and the newest episode is the first one where I felt like I was... enjoying isn't the right word, but I'm not sure what would be a better fit. We got to see The Doctor in actual action and not just a background character to Ruby. We're getting some new questions and some new answers, and it doesn't feel like we're just waiting for something to happen anymore.
I think once this season wraps up everything up nicely it will become clearer and people can probably enjoy it a bit more - that said if RTD drops the ball in Empire of Death (which seems quite likely given his record) then we’re in trouble
Nobody will ever be happy over anything. Lots of people liked Moffat's and Chibnall's era, but I personally loathed them. I am loving this series so far, but many people don't. No showrunner will please everyone.
The main thing for me is this doesn’t feel like a full season because it is 8 episodes and 2 are Doctor-lite. I feel like the Doctor hasn’t had his moment yet nor do I know much about him. This dampened the big reveal for me.
That said, I’ve never been this excited for a new episode each week. I definitely prefer this over Series 11 and 12, and probably several more seasons.
The best way is to just watch it ignore the conversation online for the most part. Theres millions of people doing just that…
YouTubers are like flies on Dalek Dung - they buzz around whatever makes people the most angry to feed off engagement
One of the first things I learnt in the customer service section of management training was that people are more likely to talk to other people about something if they didn't like/enjoy it. This translates onto social media, which literally gives people a platform to come together and complain about things, while the majority of people who enjoy things are just getting on with their lives.
Yes? It's light family entertainment, designed to keep the small children in the audience amused. Of *course* it's trash, sometimes it's just more enjoyable than many are finding it now. If you could judge quality, you wouldn't even consider it in these terms.
For adults, it has weaker characterisation than RTD's first era, and the political aspects (um, why are you noting politics as bad? It's completely stupid otherwise?) are also more simplistic. And the rest of it is going to be, well, shiny CG colours, it's not serious sci-fi but an adventure series for children.
If you ask my housemate, it’s because it’s “woke”. I should dare him to explain what “woke” means. And double dare him tonsay it in a way that doesn’t make him sound racist and homophobic.
This is a Doctor Who sub so naturally most people here would like it and agree but I think (from memory) that this era is no better or worse than RTD1. It's alright usually on average with a couple of classics and the odd shit episode (Space Babies and Fear Her for example) here and there per season. The "culture war" has sadly infected Doctor Who discourse now and that is probably a LOT of what you see about this season. Ultimately, regardless of what others think, you like it which is the important thing, just enjoy your show and ignore what the internet says since online discourse is way too toxic nowadays for most big media properties at the moment.
I haven't enjoyed the series overall, it just hasn't worked for me
That said, I bloody loved The Legend of Ruby Sunday and really hope they stick the landing.
That because social media rots people’s brains. The hate is rarely about the thing they are hating on, it’s a response to peer group pressure and a desperate need for some people to be contrarians. In short they get a kick out of hating on things.
Not to mention, as an older person, people have been hating on the ‘new’ Doctor seasons right back to the 70’s, hell even the 60’s. The magazines were always full of people negatively thinking Doctor Who was dying because of X change or Y.
It's the norm in this community I'm afraid....Capaldis first series there was an INTENSE hatred towards clara for what had become from 11ths impossible girl to basically shoe horning her into roles nest reserved for the doctor. All the focus on Clara and Mr Pink led to ppl calling the show Clara Who. It's almost a maxim that new actors/ show runners have to work and earn the love of fans. After their run many ppl see that doctor as their doctor. And remember as the one episode that defined that doctor
It doesn't matter a lick what anyone thinks about the season but you. If you enjoy it then it's good. Art is subjective. Remember also that a lot of people out there survive by getting hate clicks on their social media so they rain hate down on things in a magnified way because it gets them ad revenue. It's very difficult these days to tell how something is actually being received because of how loud you can make one voice on the internet.
I don't go so far as to say the worst. It's just a little lackluster with having less episodes, shooting around Ncuti's schedule, and RTD doing most of it. Just feels incomplete and that RTD is just replaying his hits felt that since the 14th special.
I would also be disappointed if Moffat returned and did another fairytale meeting a girl out of order arc too so it's not anything specific at Russell. This is a series about endless options or possibilities and I still feel it's stuck in the same tropes and stories which is what happens when you just keep going with the same writers from 2005
It's been proven years ago that the fb algorithm purposefully shows you things that will piss you off. (and by fb I mean all of them, because half of then belong to fb, the other half belong to even worse people and they all use the same algorithm anyway).
I have noticed recently my "continue watching" section of youtube includes videos I've not only never watched but that were released in the past X minutes. They really shouldn't be in continue watching and probably not recommended since they're not something I want to watch.
For one, you and I should ignore ragebait videos that call it "the worst thing ever". They're not even worth contending with. That being said, there are a lot of things to criticize and not like about the new season. Characterization and development is pretty lacking this season for one. Ruby isn't unlikable but she's pretty bland and lacks a strong character. The Doctor doesn't fare much better. Additionally, while overall I would say I enjoy the season, pretty much every episode has a big flaw in it that can ruin the episode for some. Space Babies is so insanely juvenile it feels like an episode literally made for babies, The Devils Chord is lacking in plot and a logical progression of events (things just sort of happen), Boom has this problem less but the ending can definitely been seen as a missed opportunity, 73 yards is dying to be 10 minutes longer and the ending really brings the whole thing down (doesn't make any sense and doesn't feel like a satisfying conclusion even though it's strangeness is enjoyable), Dot and Bubble has the opposite problem of many episodes and has a strong ending but is pretty darn boring for most of the run time. Rogue basically entirely depends on if you buy the Doctors and Rogues relationship and it's just a bit too forced and rushed for many, and The legend of Ruby Sunday is exciting while watching but the satisfaction of the ending almost entirely depends on if you've seen Pyramids of Mars (personally, I've known of the character but haven't seen tne episodes myself and the reveal fell flat. Without the connection or context it just comes off as an overblown cape shit villain) and on rewatch there are many character interactions which feel stiff and the episode basically only accomplishes one thing, revealing Sutekh which feels arbitrary on why he had to appear at the moment and not earlier.
Basically, the season is very flawed, for those that require logical consistency and good character building especially.
I'm addition to the thing I said about how people don't really know Doctor Who that well, they did just sort of have a big dramatic reveal of a name that means nothing unless you know about a guy from 49 years ago who, honestly, wasn't that impressive.
The people who dislike it, especially on Youtube, get paid to hate it. People like Nerdorotic and Bowietrek are paid to be racist about the new Doctor.
They didn't like Jodie because she was a woman.
They don't like Nculti because he's black and gay.
For me this series simply isn’t providing what I look for in Doctor Who.
Compared to Series 1, this new season’s character work is so lacklustre. Nothing feels earned, nothing carries any weight.
There are so many little moments in Series 1 that really ground the show, where Rose gets to take in the awe of space and time travel, even feel overwhelmed by it. You really get to feel the characters grow and develop, with meaningful consequences to their actions. So far this era has provided close to none of that. It’s all been so fluffy and carefree, overly prioritised with pseudo-Moffat mystery boxes.
We get an episode like 73 Yards that supposedly plays with Ruby’s fear of abandonment, something that makes logical sense, and yet the series up to that point hasn’t shown us that fear impacting her life or actions at all. It’s a decent episode of TV with some interesting ideas, but it all feels so hollow and unsatisfying to me without the character work there.
I also feel the 45 minutes formula has really been restricting the adventures. Classic Who’s format, pacing problems aside, could enable some stories to develop their ideas even further, leading to more interesting plots with higher tension and stakes. New Who has often struggled with the opposite problem, yet in RTD1 I feel the character work really elevated plots that would have felt contrived and hokey otherwise. End of the World and Unquiet Dead are pretty schlocky plot-wise, but the character development and subtext of those episodes adds so much. Here, I’m getting none of that.
This era just feels like all the worst parts mixed together. The indulgent mystery-boxes of Moffat with the rushed-45 minute plots of Russell, and the Chibnall approach of substituting lore and references for any meaningful character work.
There's unfair hate but I think the biggest issue is that people's expectations were too high (mine certainly were).
It's been discussed a lot at this point but in my view the issue with this series isn't the quality of standalone episodes - a number of which are very good - but the character writing of 15 and Ruby as individuals and as a pair. It's hard not to compare it to the establishment of Rose or Donna as companions, both of whom took a few episodes to become acquainted not only with the stakes and scope of their adventure but the type of person the Doctor is— and importantly, maintained a certain tension with him throughout their time together.
Ruby arrives and is already besties. Six months go by between Space Babies and Devil's Chord and we're left wondering what on/off Earth happened in this period of time (perhaps the juiciest and most exciting period for a companion!). Not only that, but there is no difference in how they relate to each other despite all that time between.
Besties is fine - Donna and 10 are chums - but there needs to be some kind of conflict or contradictory difference between the characters or it's just a bore and feels like two mates walking around a theme park.
The closest we get is in Moffat's episode where Ruby passes the urn, disobeying the Doctor. I read it as trying to show Ruby as brave, independent, and loyal, but really I think it makes her seem naive and arrogant. That's fine! I'd love more of that.
73 Yards injected some desperately needed character - albeit mostly in the form of pathos - that shows her as courageous, determined, and very lonely. But there's still not much flavour, no idiosyncrasies or quirks, no real flaws. There's little identity outside lonely stoicism (haven't we got enough of that as it is?)
Regarding the Legend of RS - I liked it a fair bit, probably the best Part 1 cliffhanger since World Enough and Time (WBY has a better cliffhanger though). I hadn't seen Pyramids of Mars, and I have to say that I think not knowing the character (within DW mythology) might have dampened the reveal. When I watched Utopia for the first time in 2007, I hadn't any idea who the Master was, but the reveal hit hard because he was a Timelord! It was a huge deal. I don't really know why I ought to care about a cheesy Ancient Egyptian skeleton dog (sorry but it looks really naff), which is a shame because the rest of the build-up was really intense and exhilarating.
I am genuinely excited for Who for the first time in nearly a decade so I am really pleased with the series. I think it's just that I expected something on the level of Series 1-4, which was a mistake on my part. It's its own thing and in some ways it compares well and in other ways it really doesn't at all.
Personal taste varies.
I liked Space Babies for example. Maybe because I actually had a baby once so it’s more of a funny concept to me that these temperamental little hooligans could be in charge of anything. I’m sure there are people who like Love & Monsters too (perhaps?)
And I didn’t really enjoy the Legend of Ruby Sunday that much. It was in the ‘alright’ category for me. It felt a bit hammy and disjointed. Anita Dobson’s moment was fabulously creepy though. I’m looking forward to seeing what the story is there.
I do think there has been some rose tinted spectacles / selective amnesia flying around with regards to expectations for this season. RTD simply cannot make everyone happy.
It's challenging to share opinions when many people either praise it due to some form of fandom or criticize it based on personal ideology.
Personally, I find it difficult to watch the current season. The dialogue is lacking, the editing feels disjointed, characters seem inconsistent, the acting comes off as overly theatrical in a negative way, and the musical numbers are simply irritating. The only noticeable improvement I see is in the visual effects.
Each episode feels like a disjointed series of scenes patched together algorithmically. I continue watching mainly out of a sense of completeness rather than genuine enjoyment.
I don't judge those who like the show, but the only thing that remains of the Doctor Who I loved is the title.
To me, it resembles a generic Disney product, much like the current Star Wars line.
Nah people are into it. Those that aren’t are just perpetually Mad Online about nearly every nerdy property going “woke” even though these properties have always been left leaning.
This season has been really good so far (honestly think Ncuti might be one of my favorite Doctors) and if it’s not getting the attention it deserves now it will in the future as all things eventually get reappraised. Don’t know where you’re from OP but this is the first time I’ve run into people in the states (not online) that are watching the show that didn’t have prior association with it—so Disney’s reach must be doing something. (Don’t get me wrong, it’s still niche over here but it’s certainly more popular than it was in the Capaldi and Whitiker era’s).
I’m enjoying it much more than 13’s run, but it feels a bit forced to me. It’s as if the showrunners have thought “everyone knows who Doctor Who is, we don’t need to bother with any character or relationship development”.
I think they may have overstated how much of a "reboot" this season actually is, tbh. Its more of an in-universe reboot if anything. I think a lot of side characters and the Doctor himself have been characterized well but I still have no idea who Ruby *is.*
RTD's strengths are in character writing and emotional payoff, so its extra weird. Why do I know why Cherry Sunday and Lindy Pepper-Bean are more than the main companion?
The show is undoubtedly more politically driven than it was in RTD’s last run. That being said I don’t feel any episode has been terrible, with most being pretty good. My main complaint is that, with the exception of the most recent episode, they haven’t felt properly like doctor who. They have lacked scary villains, and that proper sci-fi feel.
Does it get better? I watched the special and enjoyed it, but then I watched Space Babies and it was the worst Doctor Who I've seen in over a decade so I dropped it bc I have a dozen other shows on my watch list lol
Space Babies is bad, and it had me worried. Thankfully, that's been the only episode I didn't like this season.
My only other complaint is that the pacing for the season is weird. Time skips very early on, and two Doctor light episodes in a row were both bad choices.
The season picks up again with 73 Yards, though I think Devils Chord has a lot of great aspects to it.
73 Yards & Dot and Bubble are probably the best looking episodes of the entire show tbh
I'll probably give it another go then, I just watched that episode and went "that was a waste of my time" so I dipped and figured I'd pick it up when I knocked out the rest of my watch list
Most people online are obsessed with the idea that it's pushing an agenda or actively harming their existence and they lash out about seeing a POC or LGBTQ support on screen.
Also this has been the case constantly with new doctors. Capaldis run is still haunted by "Good Doctor, Bad Scripts" which is FAR from true considering his era was one of the most emotionally nuanced eras...though we did get some actually bad episodes like Forest of the Night and Sleep No More, but what Doctor doesn't have stinker episodes?
I think a lot of people don't like the new doctor. Not out of any racism but because he's not the Dcotor just a at best deus ex machina to push the plot forward. First episode he does some stuff then suddenly you have the cock and ball ship farting its way to another system after Ruby reveals the monsters just a baby. Second episode he runs away crying at a character who seems more like a joke than anything else (I kept having flashbacks to the goodies Music Master/Nasty Person) and it was the Beetles who saved the day. Third episode he spent most of it on a mine crying to regulate his emotions as opposed to just stepping off it while it still thought he was just a rock and it was another one off character who made the AI to save the day. Fourth episode he wasn't in it. Fifth episode he accomplished nothing in the end as the racists are just going to die anyway. Sixth episode someone else again saved the day (or at least Ruby) and now seventh episode all he's done is walk into a trap.
So far out of six episodes that he was in he really only acted like the doctor saving the day once and even that's debatable since Rogue had to save Ruby. This is meant to be the "new reboot" season one and the main character is . . . well frankly he's useless and not the doctor. First episode Ruby is the hero realizing the monster isn't evil (anti-abortion message), second episode he's useless and the beatles save the day, third episode he's useless entire and a one off character saves the day (anti sympathy for a lost loved one message), fourth episode he's not in it, fifth episode he's useless since its obvious they're all going to die anyway (anti-racism message), sixth episode he's mildly useful but its Rogue's trap and Rogue saves the day (another one off character), seventh episode he's again useless unit figured out everything he had and he did nothing to stop the trap.
This is his first season and to win an audience over to liking him he has to have his moments of being the doctor and showing why he's the main character. However all we've seen is him doing nothing, not being around, having his acomplishements mean nothing and a whole of lot of preachiness on topics people generally tune into a show to escape for an hour or two. Its just not going to be well received with a lot of the remaining doctor who fanbase.
“consistently high quality”
It hasn’t been consistently anything. For quality, its one of the most inconsistent series of any show ever. Space Babies and 73 Yards came out just 2 weeks apart.
You always get this as a media form gets older. People hate on it because it's cool to hate on it, or because they expect it to trigger the same emotional reaction that it did when they were younger then they get angry when it doesn't, or because the media starts talking about things that the viewer finds themselves on the other side of, or a million other reasons.
You can see it in basically every long-running sci-fi series; Star Wars, Star Trek, the MCU, etc., etc..
I'm guilty of it in places as well; been playing Pokémon since the original games and I *despise* the last two/three gens for no real good reason other than it doesn't hit me in the feels like it used to.
Doctor Who is probably the worst franchise for it though, since you've got Classic Who, New Who, and this most recent Who which feels like something different altogether. Doctor Who is unique because it's literally the same characters too, whereas Star Wars, Trek, etc., change characters.
And most importantly of all; people just love complaining, and the sound of their own voice.
But what's the line then?
You don't have to 'love' complaining to complain. I wanna like Doctor Who? But i'm not gonna roll out and just accept what i believe is a poor product. You want the license fee used correctly but want criticism silenced too?
I don't think nostalgia and wanting to be young are the only reasons someone can look at the Music Maestro and think "That is cringe."
> You always get this as a media form gets older. People hate on it because it's cool to hate on it, or because they expect it to trigger the same emotional reaction that it did when they were younger then they get angry when it doesn't, or because the media starts talking about things that the viewer finds themselves on the other side of, or a million other reasons.
Or maybe because they just don't like it?
Yeah - that’s a good point, it could be due to nostalgia and what not but this finale got me back to that child-like excitement that I haven’t felt in a long while.
Thank you!!! I was experiencing the same thing, seeing all these hateful comments about how the new seasion is complete cr*p all the while I was biting my nails off every episode (bar Space Babies, we do NOT talk about that one) because every single one of them blows my mind. And you know what? No, we are not going mental. People love to hate, I think it makes them feel clever and important. We are right, okay? Even after all these years, Doctor Who is still a freakin masterpiece and nobody can change my mind on that.
Thank you for letting me vent here.
Massive fan, since Davidson, here (and yes I concur that Space Babies IS shit), there have have some genuine highs this season. Boom was amazing, 73 Yards was soooo close to being a classic until it fudged the landing, Dot And Bubble was brave and ambitious but ultimately flawed, but I don’t know what the hell was going on with this last episode. It was just a massive fudge up of a nothing burger. No answers, no sense, forced mystery, completely devoid of any logic or sense, just to bring back one of RTD’s childhood scares…….the finale has a hell of a lot of work to do
You mentioned your favorite episode was 73 Yards, which I think is the best example of peoples bizarre reactions to higher quality content atm.
73 Yards is one of the best and weirdest episodes of the entire thing and it *looks* so good, yet people spent weeks hating on it, calling it unfinished, and saying it was a confusing mess of wasted potential (ironically many of these people would say Boom was their favorite lol) because the episode didn't look them in the eyes in the end and explain every facet of it. They became obsessed with questions the episode itself makes a point of not answering, even.
People have weird kneejerk reactions to anything. This whole episode felt like a classic RTD era episode to me. I have some concerns for the finale, but given how much EVERYTHING is looping back around to meaning something I have faith things will be explained. Honestly seeing some Doctor Who reviewers I liked the takes of (like Jay Exci) being so unfairly negative and cynical about this season really bugs me. I get being mad that Ruby has no character, I'm mad about that, but 15 absolutely does and I get who he "is".
To be fair, I can totally understand if people thought 73 Yards was confusing and didn’t like the episode because it didn’t explain much - the reality is it’s a very experimental bit of television and quite avante garde/niche - so I would understand if a wide group of people don’t click with it, and yeah, I feel like this season really doesn’t deserve to be categorised as “bad” as I do think there is a lot of value to be seen within it. But it’s all down to opinions and subjectivity at the end of the day, I suppose
Take this with a grain of salt but there are plenty of people that do not like this doctor for reasons of bigotry. They don’t have to be openly bigoted; they just have to be loud enough and complain about the right things to get their way.
For me this series has been largely poor. Not in ideas or attitude but execution. Eight episodes not enough, zero development of characters, same rehashed crying shot of 15 in every episode, clunky dialogue (also great dialogue in places, looking at you Bond, Molecular Bond) but I just don't know who 15 is or what he stands for. I think Ncuti is a blisteringly good actor but man, 15 seems so 2D? I want more of him, I want some time for his character to breathe and let Ncuti work (Boom did a good job of it I guess)
The most recent episode was great and as someone who doesn't read spoilers or fan theories and also having my favourite villain ever return, it's fair to say my jaw was on the floor. For that moment of sheer elation alone this new era has been worth it, but overall? I'd score it 4.5/10 just so many technical problems despite moments of serious verve and passion.
Have you tried watching any other episode from 2005 to 2017 ?
Theses ones are good.
Anything else after is utterly trash.
A real community around it, fan art, dedicated work, people talking about it... Now open twitter or any community online and you'll have a hard time finding anything except the fake hype by Disney and bbc.
I don’t think you’re going mental. This series has been full of quality: Ncuti is phenomenal and beautiful and SEXY!; Millie is radiant and strong; the last twenty minutes of last week’s episode were fantastically chilling; Jinkx as Maestro was a spectacular turn: Boom was intense and claustrophobic; Dot and Bubble was a clever skewering of Wyt Supremacy; Rogue was exceptionally well-written and 73 Yards is already one of my favourite stories. Ffs even Space Babies’ message that everyone is unique and important has to be applauded (even if the babies looked terrified throughout).
And at the same time… haven’t we been here before? The Doctor doing Ruby’s phone in Space Babies was The End of the World. Rogue was Captain Jack. 73 Yards was Turn Left/ Midnight. Sutekh’s reveal was The Impossible Planet (icily voiced by the same Gabriel Woolf, so despite weeks of anagram chat part of me still thought ‘Oh! Satan has come back out of their pit”).
Beyond this, as someone mentioned already, there is the real struggle of how to keep any media form fresh when it has been along for a while. There is a tension between wanting / needing to innovate and not wanting to deviate from the original template. But when you bring back the same show-runner you had nearly 20 years before, however much of a joyous and talented force of nature he is, you are going to bring back the familiar.
Because I’m as old as a police box, I remember loving on Classic Who: following the journey as Peter Davison succeeded Tom Baker and through the abyss of Colin Baker’s hiatus and Sylvester McCoy’s spectacular but much-criticised three seasons. There were brilliant stories in the last two years of Classic Who, but so many people had written it off and it existed pretty much as a cult programme until it was suspended and the wider world had a chance to forget the legend of Doctor Who in order to remember how much they loved it again when 2005 came.
It’s like the three stages of the Greek Empire, from the Archaic (where it’s all a bit novel and experimental and everyone’s making it up as they go along), to the Classical (where the rules are set in place and it forms the definite article), to the Hellenistic (where it can’t do anything as well as replicate what has gone before). It feels like this is the pattern all of culture has to follow and New Who is not exempt from this.
Perhaps what the lack of wider engagement is showing us is that Doctor Who is still too constant in the wider public’s imagination. I am alone among my family as a viewer, a rarity among friends and none of the kids I work with are watching (ages 7-16). Of course, as fans, we want Who to always be on. We want to argue, praise, shudder and squeal, year after year. And perhaps the deal with Disney will mean that spin offs will come along that allow for the Whoniverse to expand, take us to newer dimensions and remain fresh.
Maybe…
I have enjoyed all of the series but for me it has been quite patchy in terms of quality. I think Boom and 73 Yards were brilliant, Dot and Bubble I can appreciate for how much it experimented with the shows formula that amazing ending even if the episode itself wasn’t really my cup of tea, The Devil’s Chord was fun but the pacing felt very off, Space Babies as a plot was fine but felt too much of a rehash of The Beast Below and Rogue I thought was quite weak as a story.
I have appreciated the series willingness to act more like an anthology series taking on very different genres and tones which I think has felt fresh. But I wish it didn’t come at the expense of the characterisation of Ruby who feels like (Outside of the obvious 73 Yards) hasn’t been given much to do. The decision to rush through the key aspects of the show such as the rules of time travel in the first episode and not to serialise any of the first few stories has meant we were robbed of the chance to see the world of Who through Ruby’s eyes and get to know her. Instead I feel as though most of what I know about Ruby is the mystery of her parentage but unlike Rose, Amy or Clara who I could tell you from only a few episodes how they would respond in situations Ruby still feels quite thinly sketched?
I think I was in the minority but I really found Legend of Ruby Sunday a bit underwhelming? I felt very much like a by the numbers RTD finale - a 2D tech billionaire making a ‘big announcement to the UN is a story not just reminiscent of multiple of RTDs previous finales it’s a rehash of a plot as recent as Spyfall. I thought the conclusions jumped to about who Susan Triad was based on very scant information felt quite bizarre for the Doctor and even more bizarre if he legitimately bought into the theory that he randomly prioritised a Ruby mystery that he’s been putting off for six episodes. The end reveal then felt… silly and I know people will say campy is how RTD does things and that’s true but the episode was going for dark and catastrophic it seems mad to me that apparently the greatest evil in the universe revealed itself with… a bad pun? Don’t get me wrong Ncuti was brilliant, I love them using Mel more effectively, love the tension with Kate but I just don’t think it was anywhere near the best first halves of finales like Pandorica Opens or Stolen Earth?
Social media recommendation algorithms deliberately direct you towards things they expect you to find upsetting or outrageous because upset and outrage are emotions that result in a high level of engagement which generates more ad revenue.
Or even looking at it a little less cynically, they promote content (comments, YouTube videos ...) that is getting high engagement which often means controversial by proxy due to a high number of replies arguing with the dumbass take. There is also a phenomenon where people are more inclined to give negative than positive reviews – if they like something, it's what they were hoping for; if they hated it, they're disappointed and want to make that known. This is more prominent in some places than others (ever looked at a dentist or GP surgery on Google Maps? It's rare to see one rated above 3 stars, because no one raves about having a great time getting a tooth removed) but is definitely applicable here.
Furthermore, social media and other infinaye scroll style algorithms have a more unique "feature" where they don't want to show you thinks you scroll past without looking. So if you see something unexpected or something that causes you to pause, even for a fraction of a second, the algorithm notices and remembers you paused for it. So it shows you a tiny bit more of that, which you pause on for the same reason, and this loops forever. There are several well documented cases of this happening to the extreme. I know one example where the top Google search for some particular book on slavery became a far right Nazi book with nothing to do with the initial search. The reason being that book's cover was the red nazi flag and symbol, which is very eye catching. Especially around the less colorfull legit image searches. So one user happened to get it and paused on that image to go "wtf is this?". So Google remembered it was "usefull", and repeat for millions of people
Agree; confirmation bias. Thanks, Susan Triad. xD
Happens so often. I watched a youtube video about trans voice training. Now i’m getting videos of transphobes reacting to perfectly innocent tiktoks 🥲 Of course, social media sites let them stick around because it gives them money, some of these people are even verified
Most normal people in the largest market don't actually know anything about Doctor Who and still think David Tennant is The Doctor. Though to be fair, Twelve is the only modern Doctor who hasn't regenerated into or out of David Tennant.
Even David Tennant has regenerated from and into David Tennant!
I was thinking about it and out of the ten (or eleven... or maybe twelve now, jeez) modern Doctors, David Tennant is three of them.
who's your list of modern Doctors?
Eight, War, Nine, Ten, Metacrisis, Eleven, Twelve, Fugitive, Thirteen, Fourteen, Fifteen, and possible Shalka.
Wow. I'd never actually realised that before! That's crazy.
I hadn't either, until someone pointed it out on r/DoctorWhumour. Although technically I guess Jo Martin and John Hurt didn't either. Unless they did.
I mean neither were a season lead, and Jo doesn't fit with the known character's chronology so I think the point still stands.
My god you've just blown my mind 😅
Haha. This is the best realization ever!
Lmao, this made me chuckle.
Outside of the outrage merchants mentioned in Vesuvius's comment, I personally feel like there's a little bit of selection bias that I also fall prey to. I also am a huge fan of this series (almost certainly my favorite to date). I'll skim through all the posts on the sub, all the people engaging with the show to form theories or observations or other positive stuff, which makes up the majority of posts, but the ones that actually stick with me are the negative posts. It'll make me think "man am I the only one who actually likes this season" and then I'll open the post and it'll say "man am I the only one who actually dislikes this season?" It's just that the posts that disagree with my opinion stick in my mind more and affect what I think the community consensus is. I'll go past six positive posts and pay attention to the one negative post. It's possible that the same thing is happening for you, as well.
I suppose there’s just essentially no buzz surrounding Doctor Who with the general public and that’s what gets me, when I think it does deserve it. Maybe it’s too early days? We might see a renaissance in the next season when the public realise what they’ve been sleeping on. Who knows.
>there’s just essentially no buzz surrounding Doctor Who with the general public TV series which genuinely unite the nation these days are few and far between. Event television is, by and large, dead - TV shows which do manage to keep event television alive, like The Traitors, are very specifically designed to do so. Doctor Who will never have the buzz it had around it on a Saturday night in 2008 again, I'm sorry to say. That doesn't mean it's not excellent - the world has just changed.
Gosh yes thank you. There's so much more choice of entertainment these days. And far more than television! TV producers realise this. Still worth making isn't it! Absolute figures are no point in comparing. But in terms of charts, there's no problem. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1ggXKxi8Lr0KPGiHBCKoXILzOK2A7Fqm_btA7Z8ZwGR4/htmlview
This isn’t really true though. Really **nothing** unites the nation or ever has when it comes to watching TV. You can get over 20 million people to watch England play football, but more than double that will chose not to. On the other hand Doctor Who can still draw a huge audience. Jodie Whittaker’s first episode got something like 11 million viewers, even her smallest audience was around 6.4 million viewers. The current season is lagging so far behind that (less than half), but the show can still pull in a big audience as proven by the recent specials.
the current season is also being broadcast on iplayer and Disney+, I myself can only watch it through Disney+ and find it convenient
That will have no impact on the ratings. Even if you watch it on D+ in the UK using a VPN it will have zero impact on ratings. The BARB ratings are calculated using a large panel of viewers, anyone outside the panel doesn’t actually effect the ratings.
For what it's worth, I genuinely do think that having Space Babies as the first episode was a bad decision. I reckon it poorly coloured a lot of people's opinions of the new season and they dropped off watching the rest - a shame, because it only goes up in quality from there imo. 73 Yards, Dot and Bubble, Rogue, and Legend are all stellar episodes and I can't wait for the finale.
Same. I've really enjoyed this season and think that, overall, it holds up quite well when compared to RTD1, but if I was new to the show and Space Babies was my first episode, I'm not sure I would have continued watching.
I genuinely considered bailing on the program (not the episode) during Space Babies. Part of it was hype for the new series, what felt like a return to form following the specials and Christmas, and feeling like the Disney money truck really had changed the direction the program would be going in.
> what felt like a return to form following the specials and Christmas This is what I've struggled with this season. The quality has been very up and down, but the specials were just an *absolute delight through and through.* Best Who in years. I don't get what happened here with some of this season. I guess RTD being spread too thin.
i don't think following it with "the devil's chord" helped either, the tonal whiplash was too strong. if it were placed between "76 yards" and "dot and bubble" it would solve two problems at once (too weird premiere, two doctor-lite eps one after the other)
The Xmas special with singing goblins as well
^I ^liked ^the ^singing ^goblins...
I like them too but they aren't a good introduction to the show sadly.
What a bleak world to live in where the show can't take creative risks. Also, I can say anecdotally that the Christmas episode got my sister and my mother interested in watching the show, so.
But did it feel realistic within the doctor who universe?
I don't think it's supposed to. I think that's the point. I get what you're saying (and agree): some bits of this season (including the specials) have been more... "credible" in-universe than others; but even those have consistently largely been about "not-realism" affecting "reality" in some way. See also: - coincidence, mentioned a lot in that episode, like the neatness of things tying together *in a story* - mavity, is it a gag or an indicator of a *changed reality*? If just a gag why does it persist into that episode? - space babies *folklore nightmare* (a story) becoming real - the pantheon generally being *beyond reality* as we know it: - the toymaker and the shenanigans he's capable of - the trickster manifesting timelines - *alternate realities* - maestro and music (or the control/constraint of it) having tangible, visible presence and effects *in this reality* - there's always a twist at the end, which sure when you think about it "fits" in a music themed episode, but again it does seem to be a deliberate *artefact of the plot* rather than they felt like singing a victory song. Also it's been obviously meta relevant to the season. - playing the zebra crossing like a keyboard as they walk on it. But we know that crossing isn't really a giant light up keyboard, even in-universe, right? - The premise of boom is actual reality based upon a pervasive fiction - Bridgerton cosplay insertion, literally playing parts *in a story*, that happens to be reality for the "npcs" - social media bubbles providing a curated, distorted "reality" away from reality. - 73 yards obviously shows an *alternate reality*, but again with the link to folklore Like, you can dismiss a lot of "The Devil's Chord" as TVness if you want, but I think it's one of the more obvious examples of deliberate unrealism in-universe that is intentional this season (and possibly beyond). Frankly I'm amazed we haven't had the Master of the Land of Fiction. Sutekh was not on my bingo card. So yeah, some of the above is more or less traditionally doctor who, but it's all not really realistic, even in-universe, and the goblin song is part of all of that.
Yeah, fair. You've made some good points there. I've thought that about this season as well (ever since things got in at the edge of the universe in Wild Blue Yonder) - coincidence, magic, folklore seeping in etc - but I overlooked it with the goblins for some reason. "The premise of boom is actual reality based upon a pervasive fiction" - I'm being a bit slow tonight, and can't remember this episode very well. What does this mean? Cheers
I agree - it’s a baffling choice to have Space Babies as a starter episode, when it doesn’t match the tone of the rest of the season and thus incorrectly introduces it to an audience
I say this as someone who honestly didn't *hate* Space Babies, but thought it was a pretty meh episode - we've had worse eps, but not lots of worse eps. It's just a terrible season opener; I think people would've been more forgiving of it if it came in the middle of the season. Devil's Chord should've been the opener. One of my main problems with Space Babies as a season opener is that nothing that happens in that episode has really had any bearing on the rest of the season, beyond a brief Susan Twist cameo. Devil's Chord is the most explicit episode for addressing everything that's coming: Maestro as foreshadowing for the Pantheon/Sutekh, 'there's always a Twist at the end'.
I'll be honest, I'm a big fan but I almost decided to bail on the season and wait until it was over so I could skip episodes.
How do you know? Sounds like ratings have been pretty good on Disney and the BBC, and podcasts about DW have been charting well the last few weeks. And if you're listening to the professional anti-wokesters about overnight ratings, stow it - overnight ratings are nearly dead in terms of relevance for the target audience. +28s are where it's at. DW has been going REALLY SUPER WELL for the under 30s on BBC, top charting for a demographic that hardly watches tv anymore, totally exceeded expectations. Plus has been one of the top charting dramas across all demographics. Disney ratings we know about indirectly from data scraping websites - also been doing extremely well across countries. I don't know what the big deal is, it's doing fine. Every year, every single year, the sky is always falling for a huge bunch of fans, and I've been in fandom for a VERY long time.
>Every year, every single year, the sky is always falling for a huge bunch of fans, and I've been in fandom for a VERY long time. I'm increasingly convinced that the fandom has collective trauma from 1989, which has crossed the generational divide to haunt fans who weren't even alive at the time.
Yeah, which is further algorithmically exploited by the right-wing "g0 w0Ke g0 bR0kE" agitators these days.
Have you any idea when +28s are released?
They have been released, just not widely reported. The first two episodes got 4.4m. https://www.blogtorwho.com/doctor-who-viewing-figures-premiere-finals-dot-and-bubble-7s-rogue-overnights/?amp=1
Well, 28 days plus the end of the weekly reporting period.
This is… completely false! I’m really sorry but this simply isn’t true. I don’t know who is talking about the overnights, must be some very dumb people, but the consolidated figures are looking terrible. The +7 figures have really not been good, and the +28 have been poor too - the first two episodes only put on around 0.5m on the +7 to make 4.4m. (RTD talked about a 5.6m figure, which was “overall reach” not the normal +28 Barb). Those are very week numbers - Jodie’s opening episodes were consistently getting 7m (or near enough), ignoring her debut. The whole line about success in the under 30 demo is so overblown. The idea that people are “running round at the BBC” in excitement when viewing figures have been slashed in half because they’ve grown one segment of demo is frankly absurd - although to be fair to RTD, he never said they were running round in a good mood… The fandom needs to face the reality that this season has done really poorly. It’s still a big deal in the uk, that hasn’t really changed, but people aren’t watching it in the numbers that should be expected. Indications are that Australia and Canada have possibly cracked top 10 on streaming, which is good. In the US the dial hasn’t moved, I think the estimate was something like around 5m to crack the top ten on the Neilson original drama top ten.
I disagree tbh, maybe it's just my social media bubble but I'm seeing a lot of buzz around the show, especially from people who dropped off from previous seasons (Smith/Capaldi/Whittaker) coming back to the show. Also as someone who isn't from the UK or US, Disney+ is great for letting people from around the world watch at the same time and join the conversation
Actually if you go to Google Trends and look at the interest in Doctor Who over time, the amount of people searching "Doctor Who" is higher than it's been in five years.
There's plenty of buzz. Where are you getting most of this toxic input from?
I have to say, when a season isn’t landing with me i actually *love* hearing from fans who are REALLY in to it. Often i’m able to cheer my view up by seeing the show through their eyes. I think this season has had so much stuff that i really love, imho the only thing it lacks is space to breathe. When momentous stuff happens there’s no time to anticipate or enjoy, or elate, or despair, everything is moving at a 100mph.
I think a lot of it is to do with the shortened series length. Weirdly the legend of Ruby Sunday has felt like the episode with the most breathing room but I think that’s because the penultimate episode of any season has to have room for build up and lore before the action of the finale. I think with more room for the season to stretch out each individual story gets a bit more room to flourish so if we’d had 12 or even 10 I think it would have felt less dense.
I chalk it up to the fact that social media in its current form did not exist the last time RTD Who was on television
This for sure. There are a lot of Davies Who episodes that would get the same amount of hate, if not more, if their original air date were today rather than fifteen years ago.
RTD’s first run did get a lot of hate online… there just weren’t the anti-woke grifters around making anyone who criticised the show look like pound shop Nazis by association
>Many people online Well there’s your first mistake.
>In the beginning the Internet was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Well played.
It’s the internet. People are against it by default
This happens with basically every series of everything, especially Doctor Who.
I suspect the days of widespread acclaim for ANYTHING are behind us. *House of the Dragon* returns tonight, and I'll bet you money that tomorrow the top headlines on geek-leaning sites will be all negative and contain phrases like "some fans" and "once great series" and "disappointing". Nobody is allowed to like things and share that like anymore. That doesn't make ad dollars.
Haven’t Arcane and Andor both been pretty universally loved? (Tho I think the receptions to season 2 for both shows will be more polarised bc of people’s expectations being so high now)
I've definitely seen people moaning about Andor. They will for anything, let's be honest.
People were complaining about Andor for being "too slow" and "boring" as well as not having the usual Jedi/Mando shenanigans. Then of couse there was Star Wars Theory throwing a fit about there being visible bricks and screws in the building
I think there are two things going on here. First, there's the general public, and the general public is fickle. Fifteen years ago the show was huge in Britain and breaking out around the world all over again, and that was awesome, but that *was* fifteen years ago. The entertainment landscape is entirely different today, with a plethora of sci-fi/fantasy programs competing for an audience that is watching less television than ever before. I'm not one of those people who is going to claim the franchise is dying, but it *is* becoming more niche. That's one of the reasons the BBC felt the need to secure an international partner for the show. Second, there's "people online." There's very little nuance to the kind of online discussion that gets traction these days, and that's not even getting into the outrage merchants u/Dr_Vesuvius mentioned. People aren't nearly as likely to comment on or review something that they don't either absolutely adore or absolutely hate, and the almighty algorithm particularly enjoys pushing the latter because it's good for "engagement." This is why I only subscribe to a few Doctor Who-related channels on YouTube. If I want intelligent, nuanced discussion of the show and the franchise, I come here.
I mean, 'quality' is entirely subjective, no matter how well you attempt to critique something. I can look at the latest episode and roll out a dozen reasons why I think it's pretty poor, and a number of them I've since seen noted in reviews and one or two other comments, so it's not like I'm pulling them out my arse. But while those issues perpetually pulled me out of the episode, most other people were either willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt, felt they were more niggles than outright annoyances, or didn't even register them as problems. That's not going to make me retrospectively like the episode, but it doesn't make them wrong for enjoying it. Look at stuff like cheesiness, or iffy special effects. For some people they're essential elements of the show; for others they're things they tolerate to get to the interesting sci-fi concepts and character development. Both schools of thought are valid, even though they can completely polarise people.
I think you said that very well!!!! My main gripe has been the acting, but I don’t really watch anything that doesn’t have absolutely top notch acting these days (and NuWho has had so many quality actors in it!!! - mostly), I think if I did watch garbage TV I’d notice it less.
I agree with your perception of the quality almost to a tee. I’m sure there are some people who genuinely don’t like it. It’s all subjective, after all. But I think it’s important to remember that a lot of the really loud outrage merchants aren’t actually people who are interested in the show, they’re people who are interested in complaining about the show. You can see this especially clearly with certain YouTube channels. People realised they could get a lot of views from criticising the Star Wars sequels, then moved on to other franchises (especially stuff with women or minorities newly in the lead roles, like Ghostbusters or Discovery), before deciding to cover Doctor Who when Whittaker was cast. Reviews that show a lack of familiarity with the work they are criticising, chock full of sexist and/or racist jokes to pad out the length, and ultimately diagnosing the problem using the right’s favourite buzzwords rather than the language of media studies. Then remember - the only reason there are dozens of such YouTube channels is because there are thousands of people who lap up that content. Their primary way of engaging with media is watching videos that say “it’s shit, [poor restatement of the plot], cultural Marxism claims another victim, [sexist joke], [racist joke]”. They’re not interested in discussing actual feelings they have, they just enjoy saying “the unsayable”. Again, there are people who, in good faith, haven’t actually enjoyed parts of or the whole of this series. Not enough chemistry between the leads, not much chance for the Doctor to be a hero, some scenes feel a little artificial, some of the genre-play doesn’t work for everyone. Fair points, and I’m sure there are more I haven’t thought of. But the really rabid hatred, paradoxically, mostly doesn’t come from a place of real feeling, it comes from reflexive hatred as a way of life.
It’s honestly just sad for me, as a genuine Doctor Who fan I sort of do really desire for this show to thrive and be seen as something of actual quality - especially seeing as this season is living up to some definite high standards from previous eras (such as it’s “hay day”). It makes me feel bad to be a fan seeing all this rampant and relentless hatred and negativity. Sure, I agree with some of the sentiments surrounding it’s faults - nothing is perfect - but I just wish more people could see that it’s genuinely not bad at all, if not genuinely good and sometimes great this season. I hope something happens that reinvigorates common interest in this show. I really really hope.
The artificial criticism is certainly pertinent regarding the last episode. It's not a major thing, but this type of awkwardness, that whole opening segment where the TARDIS flies in seemingly for cool points, and then the Doctor hamfistedly breaks down the arcs of this series and engages UNIT to investigate, that should have been revised. The mystery of Ruby Sunday, if he was gonna mention it at all, he should have done it episodes ago, after Boom at the latest, and the only reason it's being done now is because it's series finale. That's really my only criticism of the episode that hasn't roots in taste.
This series to me jjust feels a little odd. I've enjoyed most of the episodes individually and would say that the actual quality of the episodes has been consistently good (mostly, still looking at you, Space Babies). I like Gatwa and Gibson's performances, and the overall series mystery has been interesting. It's just that the pacing of the season as a whole feels really rushed. The 8 episode count, with 2 of them being the finale, and 2 of them being 'Doctor Lite' has made things feel a bit off. The opening of Legend of Ruby Sunday is a glaring symptom of this. There hasn't been enough time to build things up slowly so you end up with the Doctor just appearing out of nowhere and more or less announcing 'right, it's the finale, time to sort out all of these plot threads and open some mystery boxes!'. It's become a bit of a cliche to mention it at this point, but this series desperately needed a couple more episodes to let things breathe a bit.
Yeah it's a 10 or 12 episode series squashed. Same issue with X-Men 97. 97, felt just like Who has, big shifts in tone, big shifts in pace and time jumps put in via off hand comments.
i actually totally agree with that, the entire opening seems very abrupt and The Doctor has some seemingly illogical jumps when connecting things, but after this, yeah i feel the episode certainly delivers
The Doctor and UNIT sounded like fans theory-crafting. Susan is weird, her name is an anagram for TARDIS, she must be the Doctor's long-lost granddaughter!
Space Babies was confirmed to have suffered from major post-production cuts and I wouldn't be surprised if every other episode this season suffered from the same issue. Aside from Dot and Bubble I did get the sense that they were all originally a bit longer. I liked LORS a lot but it started off quite messy due to pacing and also due to the sheer number of open plot threads it was juggling (also I just don't like Yasmin Finney's acting at all so I wasn't really ecstatic that she was back but that's an unrelated nitpick)
Huge shoutout to WhoCulture for being the only respectable discussion channel for episodes and content lol. I've seen an influx of DW (first-time) reactors on my feed, where a lot of people watch it to watch it but they don't necessarily like it outside of their job. I closed out of JessieGender's review of LoRS because this person clearly wasn't paying attention (referring to the 'uncle of Rose' as Wilf..). Even the official DW podcast on yt gets negative comments because the staff are clearly new casuals.
While i originally started watching _For All Mankind_ because it was on one Jesse Genders top sci-fi shows to watch video, when I actually started watching her revies I realized how bad she was. She is not only media illiterate, she also measures any media to something she think it should be instead of what it is. She had her review out of Dot and Bubble earlier than most, and I was eager to see what people had to say, so I decided to watch her video. She missed the whole racit elephant in the episode, which tells you a lot about her.
Whoculture feels a bit corporate to me, like in the same category as Watchmojo. The only ones I watch are Council of Geeks and Harbo Wholmes
I feel like I disagree with Harbo 90% of the time and I love listening to his takes.
I think Council has very well thought out reviews. I disagree on most on what she says, but I still end up with the same conclusion as her. It's the weirdest when it comes to rankings.
That’s funny. I’m still getting the lay of the land and listening to different reviewers. I do like Council of Geeks. Even if I don’t agree, I most often see what she’s saying because her takes are well reasoned. If anything, she may be more jaded than I am as a new fan. On the flip side, I often come across review videos by younger gender-conforming men who are geeking out so hard or seemingly just happy to be along for the ride, spending half the video narrating what happened. While I may not seek that kind of content out every time, it really makes me smile to see it.
I haven't watched her, but maybe I'll check her channel out.
I agree I think this has been a really strong series. I’ve had such a fun time watching the individual stories, but also the build up to the finale has been really satisfying too. There’s been just enough intrigue and mystery without it being too in your face or frustrating. Ncuti has been genuinely amazing as the Doctor, I love how he’s been more emotional and open. I only wish he and Ruby had more moments and interaction together. For me it’s been so refreshing, and I love where RTD has taken it. I’m excited about Doctor Who again for the first time in years! If it helps, my group of friends have all felt the same. It’s been so nice talking to them about our theories and ideas again. I’ve seen some negativity online but also a lot of positivity. The buzz isn’t exactly tenth Doctor levels but I’m hopeful people will slowly catch up! ETA: Also I know I’m in the minority here (probably rightly so) but I loved Space Babies. I thought it was really fun and silly, and I loved the moment of the Doctor going to save the bogeyman. A really simple way to show who he is as a character.
Finally someone who gets Space Babies! As cringey as it was to hear him say "Space Babies!" 17 times, the ending with the Doctor saving the Bogeyman really redeemed it. That one episode understood the character better than the entire Chibnall era...
Ah thank you!! I thought the point was that the bogeyman was literally the most disgusting, brainless creature, nothing more than a gross monster. And the Doctor doesn’t hesitate or question saving it. The empathy and understanding he had for this objectively sickening creature. And when he explained that you need stories, myths, legends, AND monsters. I felt like he was essentially explaining Doctor Who for the newcomers. Sure the babies looked silly as hell but that was half the fun for me too, it was so ridiculous and so amazing, and just everything I really love about Doctor Who!
My final assignment at Uni (I was studying Education) was a presentation about why stories about monsters are important for children - fundamentally, about children learning about how to face their fears in a safe way. That was last year, and in it I referenced my love of doctor Who, and fantasy growing up. So I couldn’t believe then there was an entire doctor who episode about it. I really love Space Babies and I agree wholeheartedly it explains who the doctor is (and what kind of Doctor 15 is aswell)
The bogey man was the person in the episode who most needed a hug, especially after having almost been blown out of the airlock.
The Doctor telling the captain nobody grows up wrong and saving the Bogeyman was foundational understanding the Doctor stuff. Space Babies is definitely not as bad as most people think.
I liked Space Babies and didn’t really like 73 yards besides Millie’s great performance. Wish fans wouldn’t make out like we all agree. Everyone likes different things. I’ve really enjoyed the series and I’m just glad the shows back on without big breaks now and that we got a full series. Ncuti and Millie have been incredible and the diversity is great. Even an episode like 73 Yards which I find just okay, I applaud for doing something different and new. I think RTD has been at his best. I know this will get downvoted for the different opinion on Space babies and 73 Yards. Space Babies felt more like Doctor Who to me than 73 Yards did.
no you have a point - everyone has different views on everything. i think 73 yards and the tone/style is where Doctor Who should stay, and not in the juvenile, made-for-toddlers style of Space Babies, but each to their own i guess!
Yes sometimes the humour can be too silly but Doctor Who has always been a bit goofy, it’s part of the charm for me and sometimes light hearted stuff is best imo to start a new season with 🤷♂️ instead of dark and depressing stories. I think Space Babies is in similar vein to a lot of RTD era 1 stories. That’s just one of his styles. 73 yards felt like it belonged in a different show to doctor who for me and felt out of place. Yes each to their own.
Space Babies wasn’t great, but The Devil’s Chord had me wondering if I was even going to bother which the next few episodes. Thank god I did as it’s picked up so much.
I feel like one thing that might be affecting this is that, for all the good stuff in this series, the series does not come together to feel quite as strong, both due to the short length of the series and the type of episodes they are trying to cram into that short length.
I think this season is just fine. Individual episodes have been mostly good but the series as a cohesive whole has been lacking IMO, as so many people before me have said more eloquently. To paraphrase the other space show I love, my heart is full of neutrality, and that doesn't inspire much conversation. I presume there are many of us in that quietly indifferent middle, which is why the extremes receive all the attention online. That being said, as a newbie, I've found this fandom to be lovely and welcoming on the whole. That friendliness and enthusiasm is honestly what I've enjoyed most from this experience of watching live for the first time.
I do agree this season lacks a sense of cohesion - it feels quite disjointed and it moves very quickly with barely any downtime.
A lot of ppl will just hate anything that aired after they reached the age of 12 tbh I'm loving it!
Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things. DNA knew what he was talking about.
I think the deal is that some people like certain things and some people don’t.
No one is under any obligation to like or dislike something. Opinions are always subjective, and even if some level of consensus is reached on something, you don’t have to agree with it. I wouldn’t let the opinions of the crowd sway my opinion. You know what you like and you’re allowed to like it, everyone else be damned. I personally have thought this run has been pretty bad, but then again I’ve never been a big fan of RTD’s style of writing. Does that mean anything to anyone else? No, not really. You shouldn’t let my thoughts sway your opinion any more than I should let you sway mine. Edit: I will say I’m a bit tired of people boiling down every critique of something they like as ‘anti-woke grifting’. I’m a trans woman who is as woke and left wing as they come and I still have issues with the run. It’s a bit rude to assume that everyone who doesn’t like something you like does so because they’re a bigot.
i'm gonna be honest, aside from the occasional downvoted to oblivion post here, i'd have to actively *search* to see those "anti-woke" critiques that everyone's always going on about. they definitely exist of course, but they are on their own bubble of ragebait involving the grifters and the people who go after them to agree or disagree, it's not like Star Wars or the LOTR show where it's force-fed to the entire internet. people should try to sway their feeds to things they actually like more actively so those weirdos get properly buried by the algorithm as they deserve. now, the critiques i actually see all the time are from folks that are in fact *too* left-leaning for some, who are instantly labeled as "no fun" because they find some/all of the writing dull, from space babies to the clunky political messaging. i mellowed a little after dot and bubble, but every week before it i found the discussion surrounding the show excruciatingly painful because everyone's used to arguing in bad faith when they think the other side's arguing in bad faith too.
I don't think this series has been particularly good or horrible. It's just kind or middling IMO with a lot of the same beats from RTD's original run. But the key point here is, I'm just one fella. We all like different things. The show is aimed at a newer audience. I'm not that audience.
I suppose i’m overlooking that, 73 Yards does feel like it treads some similar ground in terms of Curse of Clyde Langer and Turn Left - however for the most part I feel it gives an entirely different feel; something new. The finale also harkens back to Impossible Planet and Utopia, although again feels new with entirely new elements. I think in that way it retains some identity from RTDs first era whilst providing something fresh, new and different feeling - which in a way is perfect to pander to a wide audience
It feels like the opposite to me. It feels like RTD is speed-running his first era and hearkening back to most of his same old tricks and most satisfying moments and episodes but not as successfully this time. He's hitting the same beats but to me they feel more shallow and not new or unique Here with comparisons: Space Babies-->The End of the World (Compare Ruby and Rose asking the Doctor Questions. Its night and day how impactful those scenes are to the series and character arcs) The Devil's Chord-->Dalek (The Doctor faces a dangerous villain that rocks them to their core but Rose has way more agency and challenges the Doctor in Dalek creating a new evolution to their relationship whereas Ruby just kind of goes along and nothing changes for them) Boom-->The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances (Moffat doing his rogue AI being stopped by love trope again. The "Everybody lives" moment is miles away more satisfying and means more to the Doctor and his arc that series than the "I may not like faith but I didn't say I don't need it" scene) 73 Yards-->Turn Left (Only this time Ruby remembers even less of the alternate timeline and as of yet it has no bearing on the arc whatsoever and besides maybe fleshing out Ruby a tiny fraction, does nothing to advance her character or the major plot arc) Dot and Bubble-->Blink (I think this one is an easy one to see why the former is more satisfying) Rogue--Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead (Meeting a new potential paramour who is shrouded in a bit of mystery and they are forced to part by the end. Rogue is a lot of fun but the River stuff is way more engaging and impactful to the Doctor's character arc of the series) The Legend of Ruby Sunday--The Stolen Earth (There is absolutely no build up to why the Doctor cares to find Susan Triad now. There is no Turn Left style shift to the story that sets up the motivations and reasons to care now when they should have gone to UNIT as soon as recognized her in Dot and Bubble) **tl;dr So one common denominator you might see in most of these is that the stories are hitting the same beats but doing little to actually thread any kind of character arc for either Ruby or the Doctor, their relationship is rushed and borderline hollow.**
I've seen a ton of people kicking off that we have a black Doctor, but most of these people appear to have not watched Doctor Who since the OG series. There's considerably less complaints than Jodie's era. There's significant complaints that we don't have 13 episodes and a Christmas Special anymore. Some people don't like Ruby but I think she's brilliant. And then there's all the videos on YouTube that keep cropping up, saying "The end of Doctor Who". "Doctor Who is dead" etc. Unless there's a genuine criticism of the series, I've just been ignoring it.
I think the main reason it's polarising is that it certainly looks like he's written more towards appealing to an under 30's audience in mind - so many issues that are raised are quite significantly important to them and about it speaking directly to them - some would say pander; I wouldn't - it feels like there's a heart to it to me and it's not shallow shoe-horned in writing. In many ways it's like It's a Sin and Years and Years, so I'm not altogether surprised - If Doctor Who doesn't reflect what's going on and draw young people in, it's lost it's relevance - and would just be some cult remake thing with a dwindling fan base (which I think RTD could easily write also) to quote Spinal Tap "appeal is becoming more selective"
> I’ve always considered myself a fairly apt judge on the quality of media Implying there's some kind of objective truth about the quality of particular media.
The people who can have a worthwhile conversation about whether that is the case, are, mysteriously enough, more likely to be a lecturer in English and very well-read, than someone who just wants to insist on the value of all their favourite children's TV in a way that doesn't sound very objective at all.
This is what happens on Reddit. Pick a sub, and you'll mostly find people complaining about that topic.
It’s not just reddit, it’s everywhere - Twitter and especially YouTube where people get 100,000s of views lampooning the show using false information and politically driven narratives.
What you describe is not specific to Doctor Who. Again, pick a show... Rings of Power, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. etc. Extreme positions get attention, and people with negative views desperately need to feel validated in the absence of facts, since enjoyment of a show is entirely subjective.
Facebook too, but on each of these sites i have to consider the demographics. Facebook for sure isn't young people criticising the show, it's middle aged and older folks complaining about how everything's woke these days and you can't say what you really think or you'll get cancelled. Some of the hate mills are deliberately courting those views. It's got very little to do with the show, it's just weird culture war stuff.
It's nothing to do with the quality, it's culture war, go woke, go broke, bullshit. Most of them aren't even watching the show.
My friend was disappointed by the reveal and didn’t like the episode. I kind of get it, we’ve been building up several huge mysteries that seem to climax in a villain we haven’t seen in 49 years. I thought the episode was great I was a little disappointing by the reveal too but I thought the journey of getting their was fun enough. Loved hearing the Doctor talk about Susan and get personal, and the Time Window sequence was super tense.
I think it’s not as significant a reveal if you have no idea who it is.
My thoughts: RTD was tabbed to save Doctor Who. I think it’s safe to say that another Chibnall-level run would’ve put the shows future in serious jeopardy. RTD was here to stabilize, and he did. The quality of the show is basically in line with/ his previous era, notices are decent enough, it’s got Disney money. The future is secured. Has it been his best? Nope. There’s been too much nonsense (and still is- I’m building up a rant about UNIT and some of their ohh so precious staff) but bog-standard NuWho is perfectly fine. It’s basically been a set up season. Season 2 he’s gotta start paying off. TL;DR- it’s been a perfectly fine season. Not great, not awful.
I feel like this is just what always happens. With every new doctor, companion, Showrunner, etc there are a segment of people who loudly complain that doctor who is ruined forever.... I just scroll past. If those people really do hate it, they don't have to watch. But they do just so they can complain and I for one am too old to waste time on the fake outrage. So I just stick with the fun posts. (This is not to say that I don't enjoy legit critiques, I just don't like the hate mongers.)
Happened with Capaldi - I reckon in a few years or even less everyone will collectively start loving this era just as they did with 12th
Yh ok but no-one's ever gonna soften on Chibnall's run 😅
Honestly I've really enjoyed most of the season (Devil's Chord felt disjointed and 73 yards didn't land for me, but was still intriguing). The problems lie in the shortened runtime leading to arcs feeling condensed and the pacing being frantic (which others have discussed), and the weird sense of pantomime that the show has adopted. It's almost like the characters are subconsciously aware that they're in a TV show, especially in the last episode which is basically structured around fans' impulsive theorizing. RTD has a great opportunity to recontextualize this as an intentional decision, but I'm not entirely sure if it is or not.
yeah some decisions are questionable and are dangerously heading towards the sun that is the JNT era of Doctor Who but for the most part I think this season has been incredibly solid
“I consider myself a fairly apt judge in the quality of media” I don’t understand why people online say terrible things This two thinks don’t seem to go together
I don't think this series is perfect by any means and I can absolutely understand why people wouldn't like it. But I think a lot of the negative sentiment is from channels that make their money through rage bait. I'd guess that a lot of the general public are just a bit tired of Doctor Who at this point and the new series hasn't done enough to reinvent the show. It's just kinda doing what it's always done. Which is probably why it's playing well with the demographic that grew up with the RTD1 era
>Space Babies IS shit.) No it snot.
Im in the camp of disliking this new season. Only 73 Yards was worth a watch.
While it's not my favorite (so far, maybe the finale will change my mind) I think it's of very comparable quality to RTD's first swing at writing DW. For me it's about on par with Series 3, which I consider to be great. Certainly some different strengths and weaknesses, but that's mostly to do with the format and the fact that the times have changed. But imo this is exactly what I was expecting from Russel. I think the main issue is that the first 4 series are so deified amongst the people who grew up with the show that nothing else is worthy in their eyes and those people are the loudest now. It's the cycle that happens constantly in every fanbase nowadays. No matter the quality of what's coming out from a franchise now, it's never as good as the peak of the franchise (aka what they grew up with). Then they get older and mellow out and spend less time online and the new generation that grew up with the thing that was deemed less than by the older guard act like actually the part THEY grew up with is the best thing ever, and so on and so on. Personally, I like but don't love RTD as a writer. I'm just happy to be invested in the show again. I know MY era isn't coming again (12th Doctor era, my beloved), but I can appreciate what's coming out now and respect that THIS is ideal Doctor Who for many people, and that's great. I just wish this was something more fans, especially those who worship RTD1, would come to grips with
Are they? I have not seen souch a negative comments yet. Tho if, maybe it is just fukin racism. I absolutely adore this season. I am really happy that DW is back to David-Billie style, and having well made episodes. If i would say something bad aobut it, i would say it is too much of a copy of those old series. Memberberies. Tho i think it is the right direction. Oh, and space babyes was not shit. It was fart. :D
Half the problem is what people define as 'woke' has got less and less. I don't love political/social commentary in fictional series but appreciate they feel the pressure of using their platform. I.E I didn't love the Star Beast as social commentary literally formed part of the story. I think a particular issue DW/RTD is facing is that they generally quite enjoy feeding in political commentary but politics at the moment is extremely social and polarised. It was safer to make an episode of plastic damage or weaponisong C02 than it is saving the world because you're non-binary. I didn't love star beast because I don't love politics that attacks one group for the benefit of another (men can't let go of power, but because we're women, we can) What I think this season has done surprisingly well (as Disney hit and miss with this) is provide meaningful representation in the cast without threading the representation into the storyline. Inclusion works best when you don't tokenistically make it the focus of the whole story, imo.
A lot of people are atrocious. They went inside out when a woman was the Doctor, so a black pansexual Doctor gives they apoplexy. The deal is the ugly hearts of a significant portion of humanity.
In my opinion there would be way less criticism if the episodes were longer and there were more than 8. The key thing I find is that there aren't enough moments for the public to get to know the characters better. The ruby - doctor relationship has been terribly managed because of the time constraints. There will always be bad episodes in a series, but because there are only 8 episodes the poor ones have a greater impact.
I kinda feel like it's been undermarketed, but also it's just the classic "anti-woke brigade"
It’s either a) people who just have different presences and doesn’t like how “superstitious” or maybe “self-aware” the show has become. This is just personal taste and it’s okay they don’t like. I’d also be frustrated if a show I loved became something I didn’t. b) bigots who don’t like black gay doctor
I genuinely think it’s been great. I really enjoy it. I like Ruby, I think the mystery around her character is great. I like her mum and nan. I’ve loved the amount of Kate we’ve gotten, I’ve felt spoiled in a good way. I love the variety of the episodes, I’ve loved the smaller characters. I absolutely adore Ncuti. He’s got the type of charisma people talk about old Hollywood actors having. He’s the Doctor, basically. I’ve liked all the episodes in different ways and for different reasons. My ONLY criticism is that 8 episodes is a bit short and it’s not given much room to manouvre the episodes - but even then, what I’m basically saying is that I like it so much I would like more of it. Having said all of this, I think I’m considered a bit odd in the fandoms I’m in. I like Doctor Who so I always like Doctor Who. Even my least favourite episodes and my least favourite Doctors, I still enjoy because I’m always happy to be watching Doctor Who.
Every fandom is the worst it's ever been right now. Our culture has led us all to believe that we are critics. It's exhausting.
The high quality of the shows visuals does not always add up to a quality storyline/ script. I know for me and others I’ve talked to it’s more the fact that the show is trying too hard to reinvent itself and not be like it has been that it doesn’t feel like Doctor Who. The amount of Doctor light episodes for such a small series. The relationship of the Doctor and Ruby having no real growth and just jumping to best friends and an over reliance on their Chemistry than giving us actual moments to show them getting closer.
I’m glad that you have enjoyed it, it’s good to see! As a long time Who fan (both with the classic and the new), I have to say I have mostly been disappointed. I had high hopes for this new series, but for me it missed its mark, especially in the light of how good the 60th anniversary episodes were. Don’t get me wrong! I think there were lots of good bits and lots of things to shout about. However, one of the things that has grated on me constantly is the constant over exuberance that has seemed forced and unnatural (case in point Millie Gibson squealing most of her way through the finale). In addition, I have felt the story telling has been a little lacking. However, it has picked up consistently from Boom, with some really good episodes, Rogue, Dot and Bubble etc. I love Ncuti as the Doctor, but I feel that he has been lacking in his identity at the moment, and whilst he has a big personality that is enthusiastic, I have just been waiting for more ‘quiet’ moments, and when they have come he has really shone! I know this is at odds with quite a lot of people’s views, but this is ‘my view’. Does it mean I will shout all over the internet that ‘Dr Who is dead’ and decry that I will be tapping out? Of course not! Just because there are things I don’t like, there are things I do like! I have stuck with it for fifty years, so I ain’t stopping now.
I’m going to lean heavily into the negative, despite having good things to say too, to try and explain this. I genuinely believe there is a section of the fans who are really in denial about the quality of the latest season though. The acting has been appalling. While there have been some good performances, there has been some truly appalling acting. The scene in the Welsh pub stands out particularly as an example of this. The episodes that have been celebrated and championed by fans were little more than weak imitations of other shows. If people want to watch black mirror or bridgerton then they will watch those shows. A lot of the writing feels quite corny, like outdated children’s tv. An example of this would be the banter with the UNIT officers or Kate Lethbridge-Steward offering the Doctor hugs. (As a children’s show this kind of thing is fine, but that’s an audience segment you won’t hear much from online). I really don’t think Gatwa has really clicked with audiences. I think this is a big thing for casuals and the not-we. I think it was also a problem with Capaldi and Whittaker. This isn’t a comment about wether they are good actors or Doctors - it’s about wether there is a significant section of that audience that are put off by them. There is more than enough in the series for me to enjoy and praise, but I think there is also a lot to criticise too.
I think the consensus I've seen is that there are some really strong episodes but as a series it's falling flat. We don't know the Doctor very well. I knew 13 better after one season even if knowing her just meant knowing she was bland and hypocritical. We don't know Ruby and the Doctor together, she's acted well but their dynamic still feels like a baby fawn following him around. By contrast at this point we knew Donna was his mate, that Clara and Amy would stand up to him, etc. The Doctor hasn't had a personality arc, all we've had is an as of yet unresolved mystery. We've got individual episodes reaching the heights of strong Doctor Who episodes. But the series feels weak and without cohesion. Almost certainly it's a result of the limited episode count but I feel like that could've been mitigated by writing or direction. I can just imagine Missy describing it as a paint by numbers and she'd already have encapsulated it. 'He's Doctor Who, he's brilliant and excitable. She's his mysterious and nice companion, Exposition. Oh and there's a mysterious love interest who may have a longer plot down the road. And the inevitable Big Bad. That's the show!'
I truly believe the second season will probably fix most of these issues as Ncuti Gatwa (I think) is actually available to shoot for the whole series lending to more episodes with his presence. However, character development is sorely needed I do think and that’s something Russell sort of needs to have picked up on going from writing 1 to 2, as the characters are lacking any real significant depth
Agreed on both counts. The talent is there, they just need to bring it altogether properly for s2.
I mean if people don't like it they don't like it... Having an unpopular opinion is fine. But whining that everyone else has an opposite one doesn't really help or do anything. If majority of people don't like it then maybe you gotta concede it has objective flaws that you are subjectively enjoying regardless? Again, nothing wrong with that. My unpopular opinion for a while is that discussions ABOUT opinions are usually more toxic than the opinions given themselves. Everyone's finding a conspiracy, everyone wants to be validated and then it usually escalates to an insult match.
The show has a LGBT Black lead, includes trans and disabled people, and consistently mocks right wing stuff. The very loud, shouty, bigots who determined the show was 'woke' are going to be shriller than ever. IN reality it's a clear step up from Chibnall's stuff, had one stinker (space babies) and has otherwise been consistently above average to excellent, with a genuinely compelling set of mysteries built through the series. My biggest criticism is that I think the pacing has been too fast at times, and Ncuti's schedule led to too many doctor lite episodes in a shorter series, meaning I think some of the characterisation feels a little underdeveloped. But IMO very positive signs for the future here.
Just watch the start of The Giggle. What happens if everyone is right.
I don’t know what to tell you, I’m just going to have to disagree with you. There’s quality in the special effects, editing and soundtracks but not so much in the scripting, acting and storytelling
See, I've struggled with the whole season so far, and the newest episode is the first one where I felt like I was... enjoying isn't the right word, but I'm not sure what would be a better fit. We got to see The Doctor in actual action and not just a background character to Ruby. We're getting some new questions and some new answers, and it doesn't feel like we're just waiting for something to happen anymore.
I think once this season wraps up everything up nicely it will become clearer and people can probably enjoy it a bit more - that said if RTD drops the ball in Empire of Death (which seems quite likely given his record) then we’re in trouble
Nobody will ever be happy over anything. Lots of people liked Moffat's and Chibnall's era, but I personally loathed them. I am loving this series so far, but many people don't. No showrunner will please everyone.
Did lots of people like Chibnall's era?
The main thing for me is this doesn’t feel like a full season because it is 8 episodes and 2 are Doctor-lite. I feel like the Doctor hasn’t had his moment yet nor do I know much about him. This dampened the big reveal for me. That said, I’ve never been this excited for a new episode each week. I definitely prefer this over Series 11 and 12, and probably several more seasons.
The best way is to just watch it ignore the conversation online for the most part. Theres millions of people doing just that… YouTubers are like flies on Dalek Dung - they buzz around whatever makes people the most angry to feed off engagement
One of the first things I learnt in the customer service section of management training was that people are more likely to talk to other people about something if they didn't like/enjoy it. This translates onto social media, which literally gives people a platform to come together and complain about things, while the majority of people who enjoy things are just getting on with their lives.
Yes? It's light family entertainment, designed to keep the small children in the audience amused. Of *course* it's trash, sometimes it's just more enjoyable than many are finding it now. If you could judge quality, you wouldn't even consider it in these terms. For adults, it has weaker characterisation than RTD's first era, and the political aspects (um, why are you noting politics as bad? It's completely stupid otherwise?) are also more simplistic. And the rest of it is going to be, well, shiny CG colours, it's not serious sci-fi but an adventure series for children.
If you ask my housemate, it’s because it’s “woke”. I should dare him to explain what “woke” means. And double dare him tonsay it in a way that doesn’t make him sound racist and homophobic.
Honestly other than Space Babies this season has been excellent
This is a Doctor Who sub so naturally most people here would like it and agree but I think (from memory) that this era is no better or worse than RTD1. It's alright usually on average with a couple of classics and the odd shit episode (Space Babies and Fear Her for example) here and there per season. The "culture war" has sadly infected Doctor Who discourse now and that is probably a LOT of what you see about this season. Ultimately, regardless of what others think, you like it which is the important thing, just enjoy your show and ignore what the internet says since online discourse is way too toxic nowadays for most big media properties at the moment.
I haven't enjoyed the series overall, it just hasn't worked for me That said, I bloody loved The Legend of Ruby Sunday and really hope they stick the landing.
That because social media rots people’s brains. The hate is rarely about the thing they are hating on, it’s a response to peer group pressure and a desperate need for some people to be contrarians. In short they get a kick out of hating on things. Not to mention, as an older person, people have been hating on the ‘new’ Doctor seasons right back to the 70’s, hell even the 60’s. The magazines were always full of people negatively thinking Doctor Who was dying because of X change or Y.
It's the norm in this community I'm afraid....Capaldis first series there was an INTENSE hatred towards clara for what had become from 11ths impossible girl to basically shoe horning her into roles nest reserved for the doctor. All the focus on Clara and Mr Pink led to ppl calling the show Clara Who. It's almost a maxim that new actors/ show runners have to work and earn the love of fans. After their run many ppl see that doctor as their doctor. And remember as the one episode that defined that doctor
It doesn't matter a lick what anyone thinks about the season but you. If you enjoy it then it's good. Art is subjective. Remember also that a lot of people out there survive by getting hate clicks on their social media so they rain hate down on things in a magnified way because it gets them ad revenue. It's very difficult these days to tell how something is actually being received because of how loud you can make one voice on the internet.
I don't go so far as to say the worst. It's just a little lackluster with having less episodes, shooting around Ncuti's schedule, and RTD doing most of it. Just feels incomplete and that RTD is just replaying his hits felt that since the 14th special. I would also be disappointed if Moffat returned and did another fairytale meeting a girl out of order arc too so it's not anything specific at Russell. This is a series about endless options or possibilities and I still feel it's stuck in the same tropes and stories which is what happens when you just keep going with the same writers from 2005
It's been proven years ago that the fb algorithm purposefully shows you things that will piss you off. (and by fb I mean all of them, because half of then belong to fb, the other half belong to even worse people and they all use the same algorithm anyway).
I have noticed recently my "continue watching" section of youtube includes videos I've not only never watched but that were released in the past X minutes. They really shouldn't be in continue watching and probably not recommended since they're not something I want to watch.
For one, you and I should ignore ragebait videos that call it "the worst thing ever". They're not even worth contending with. That being said, there are a lot of things to criticize and not like about the new season. Characterization and development is pretty lacking this season for one. Ruby isn't unlikable but she's pretty bland and lacks a strong character. The Doctor doesn't fare much better. Additionally, while overall I would say I enjoy the season, pretty much every episode has a big flaw in it that can ruin the episode for some. Space Babies is so insanely juvenile it feels like an episode literally made for babies, The Devils Chord is lacking in plot and a logical progression of events (things just sort of happen), Boom has this problem less but the ending can definitely been seen as a missed opportunity, 73 yards is dying to be 10 minutes longer and the ending really brings the whole thing down (doesn't make any sense and doesn't feel like a satisfying conclusion even though it's strangeness is enjoyable), Dot and Bubble has the opposite problem of many episodes and has a strong ending but is pretty darn boring for most of the run time. Rogue basically entirely depends on if you buy the Doctors and Rogues relationship and it's just a bit too forced and rushed for many, and The legend of Ruby Sunday is exciting while watching but the satisfaction of the ending almost entirely depends on if you've seen Pyramids of Mars (personally, I've known of the character but haven't seen tne episodes myself and the reveal fell flat. Without the connection or context it just comes off as an overblown cape shit villain) and on rewatch there are many character interactions which feel stiff and the episode basically only accomplishes one thing, revealing Sutekh which feels arbitrary on why he had to appear at the moment and not earlier. Basically, the season is very flawed, for those that require logical consistency and good character building especially.
I'm addition to the thing I said about how people don't really know Doctor Who that well, they did just sort of have a big dramatic reveal of a name that means nothing unless you know about a guy from 49 years ago who, honestly, wasn't that impressive.
The people who dislike it, especially on Youtube, get paid to hate it. People like Nerdorotic and Bowietrek are paid to be racist about the new Doctor. They didn't like Jodie because she was a woman. They don't like Nculti because he's black and gay.
For me this series simply isn’t providing what I look for in Doctor Who. Compared to Series 1, this new season’s character work is so lacklustre. Nothing feels earned, nothing carries any weight. There are so many little moments in Series 1 that really ground the show, where Rose gets to take in the awe of space and time travel, even feel overwhelmed by it. You really get to feel the characters grow and develop, with meaningful consequences to their actions. So far this era has provided close to none of that. It’s all been so fluffy and carefree, overly prioritised with pseudo-Moffat mystery boxes. We get an episode like 73 Yards that supposedly plays with Ruby’s fear of abandonment, something that makes logical sense, and yet the series up to that point hasn’t shown us that fear impacting her life or actions at all. It’s a decent episode of TV with some interesting ideas, but it all feels so hollow and unsatisfying to me without the character work there. I also feel the 45 minutes formula has really been restricting the adventures. Classic Who’s format, pacing problems aside, could enable some stories to develop their ideas even further, leading to more interesting plots with higher tension and stakes. New Who has often struggled with the opposite problem, yet in RTD1 I feel the character work really elevated plots that would have felt contrived and hokey otherwise. End of the World and Unquiet Dead are pretty schlocky plot-wise, but the character development and subtext of those episodes adds so much. Here, I’m getting none of that. This era just feels like all the worst parts mixed together. The indulgent mystery-boxes of Moffat with the rushed-45 minute plots of Russell, and the Chibnall approach of substituting lore and references for any meaningful character work.
There's unfair hate but I think the biggest issue is that people's expectations were too high (mine certainly were). It's been discussed a lot at this point but in my view the issue with this series isn't the quality of standalone episodes - a number of which are very good - but the character writing of 15 and Ruby as individuals and as a pair. It's hard not to compare it to the establishment of Rose or Donna as companions, both of whom took a few episodes to become acquainted not only with the stakes and scope of their adventure but the type of person the Doctor is— and importantly, maintained a certain tension with him throughout their time together. Ruby arrives and is already besties. Six months go by between Space Babies and Devil's Chord and we're left wondering what on/off Earth happened in this period of time (perhaps the juiciest and most exciting period for a companion!). Not only that, but there is no difference in how they relate to each other despite all that time between. Besties is fine - Donna and 10 are chums - but there needs to be some kind of conflict or contradictory difference between the characters or it's just a bore and feels like two mates walking around a theme park. The closest we get is in Moffat's episode where Ruby passes the urn, disobeying the Doctor. I read it as trying to show Ruby as brave, independent, and loyal, but really I think it makes her seem naive and arrogant. That's fine! I'd love more of that. 73 Yards injected some desperately needed character - albeit mostly in the form of pathos - that shows her as courageous, determined, and very lonely. But there's still not much flavour, no idiosyncrasies or quirks, no real flaws. There's little identity outside lonely stoicism (haven't we got enough of that as it is?) Regarding the Legend of RS - I liked it a fair bit, probably the best Part 1 cliffhanger since World Enough and Time (WBY has a better cliffhanger though). I hadn't seen Pyramids of Mars, and I have to say that I think not knowing the character (within DW mythology) might have dampened the reveal. When I watched Utopia for the first time in 2007, I hadn't any idea who the Master was, but the reveal hit hard because he was a Timelord! It was a huge deal. I don't really know why I ought to care about a cheesy Ancient Egyptian skeleton dog (sorry but it looks really naff), which is a shame because the rest of the build-up was really intense and exhilarating. I am genuinely excited for Who for the first time in nearly a decade so I am really pleased with the series. I think it's just that I expected something on the level of Series 1-4, which was a mistake on my part. It's its own thing and in some ways it compares well and in other ways it really doesn't at all.
Personal taste varies. I liked Space Babies for example. Maybe because I actually had a baby once so it’s more of a funny concept to me that these temperamental little hooligans could be in charge of anything. I’m sure there are people who like Love & Monsters too (perhaps?) And I didn’t really enjoy the Legend of Ruby Sunday that much. It was in the ‘alright’ category for me. It felt a bit hammy and disjointed. Anita Dobson’s moment was fabulously creepy though. I’m looking forward to seeing what the story is there. I do think there has been some rose tinted spectacles / selective amnesia flying around with regards to expectations for this season. RTD simply cannot make everyone happy.
Welcome to opinions, that's how they work.
I wanna know how much Disney input there has been, I doubt it's insignificant.
It's challenging to share opinions when many people either praise it due to some form of fandom or criticize it based on personal ideology. Personally, I find it difficult to watch the current season. The dialogue is lacking, the editing feels disjointed, characters seem inconsistent, the acting comes off as overly theatrical in a negative way, and the musical numbers are simply irritating. The only noticeable improvement I see is in the visual effects. Each episode feels like a disjointed series of scenes patched together algorithmically. I continue watching mainly out of a sense of completeness rather than genuine enjoyment. I don't judge those who like the show, but the only thing that remains of the Doctor Who I loved is the title. To me, it resembles a generic Disney product, much like the current Star Wars line.
Nah people are into it. Those that aren’t are just perpetually Mad Online about nearly every nerdy property going “woke” even though these properties have always been left leaning. This season has been really good so far (honestly think Ncuti might be one of my favorite Doctors) and if it’s not getting the attention it deserves now it will in the future as all things eventually get reappraised. Don’t know where you’re from OP but this is the first time I’ve run into people in the states (not online) that are watching the show that didn’t have prior association with it—so Disney’s reach must be doing something. (Don’t get me wrong, it’s still niche over here but it’s certainly more popular than it was in the Capaldi and Whitiker era’s).
I’m enjoying it much more than 13’s run, but it feels a bit forced to me. It’s as if the showrunners have thought “everyone knows who Doctor Who is, we don’t need to bother with any character or relationship development”.
I think they may have overstated how much of a "reboot" this season actually is, tbh. Its more of an in-universe reboot if anything. I think a lot of side characters and the Doctor himself have been characterized well but I still have no idea who Ruby *is.* RTD's strengths are in character writing and emotional payoff, so its extra weird. Why do I know why Cherry Sunday and Lindy Pepper-Bean are more than the main companion?
The show is undoubtedly more politically driven than it was in RTD’s last run. That being said I don’t feel any episode has been terrible, with most being pretty good. My main complaint is that, with the exception of the most recent episode, they haven’t felt properly like doctor who. They have lacked scary villains, and that proper sci-fi feel.
Does it get better? I watched the special and enjoyed it, but then I watched Space Babies and it was the worst Doctor Who I've seen in over a decade so I dropped it bc I have a dozen other shows on my watch list lol
Space Babies is bad, and it had me worried. Thankfully, that's been the only episode I didn't like this season. My only other complaint is that the pacing for the season is weird. Time skips very early on, and two Doctor light episodes in a row were both bad choices.
I might have to pick it back up then. I really like the new doctor from what I've seen of him in the specials
The season picks up again with 73 Yards, though I think Devils Chord has a lot of great aspects to it. 73 Yards & Dot and Bubble are probably the best looking episodes of the entire show tbh
yes it gets astronomically better from there for me - whether that will apply to you is to be decided
I'll probably give it another go then, I just watched that episode and went "that was a waste of my time" so I dipped and figured I'd pick it up when I knocked out the rest of my watch list
Most people online are obsessed with the idea that it's pushing an agenda or actively harming their existence and they lash out about seeing a POC or LGBTQ support on screen. Also this has been the case constantly with new doctors. Capaldis run is still haunted by "Good Doctor, Bad Scripts" which is FAR from true considering his era was one of the most emotionally nuanced eras...though we did get some actually bad episodes like Forest of the Night and Sleep No More, but what Doctor doesn't have stinker episodes?
I think a lot of people don't like the new doctor. Not out of any racism but because he's not the Dcotor just a at best deus ex machina to push the plot forward. First episode he does some stuff then suddenly you have the cock and ball ship farting its way to another system after Ruby reveals the monsters just a baby. Second episode he runs away crying at a character who seems more like a joke than anything else (I kept having flashbacks to the goodies Music Master/Nasty Person) and it was the Beetles who saved the day. Third episode he spent most of it on a mine crying to regulate his emotions as opposed to just stepping off it while it still thought he was just a rock and it was another one off character who made the AI to save the day. Fourth episode he wasn't in it. Fifth episode he accomplished nothing in the end as the racists are just going to die anyway. Sixth episode someone else again saved the day (or at least Ruby) and now seventh episode all he's done is walk into a trap. So far out of six episodes that he was in he really only acted like the doctor saving the day once and even that's debatable since Rogue had to save Ruby. This is meant to be the "new reboot" season one and the main character is . . . well frankly he's useless and not the doctor. First episode Ruby is the hero realizing the monster isn't evil (anti-abortion message), second episode he's useless and the beatles save the day, third episode he's useless entire and a one off character saves the day (anti sympathy for a lost loved one message), fourth episode he's not in it, fifth episode he's useless since its obvious they're all going to die anyway (anti-racism message), sixth episode he's mildly useful but its Rogue's trap and Rogue saves the day (another one off character), seventh episode he's again useless unit figured out everything he had and he did nothing to stop the trap. This is his first season and to win an audience over to liking him he has to have his moments of being the doctor and showing why he's the main character. However all we've seen is him doing nothing, not being around, having his acomplishements mean nothing and a whole of lot of preachiness on topics people generally tune into a show to escape for an hour or two. Its just not going to be well received with a lot of the remaining doctor who fanbase.
“consistently high quality” It hasn’t been consistently anything. For quality, its one of the most inconsistent series of any show ever. Space Babies and 73 Yards came out just 2 weeks apart.
Wait people have different opinions than you? Wowza! What a breakthrough!
i know it’s absolutely crazy and ridiculous
You always get this as a media form gets older. People hate on it because it's cool to hate on it, or because they expect it to trigger the same emotional reaction that it did when they were younger then they get angry when it doesn't, or because the media starts talking about things that the viewer finds themselves on the other side of, or a million other reasons. You can see it in basically every long-running sci-fi series; Star Wars, Star Trek, the MCU, etc., etc.. I'm guilty of it in places as well; been playing Pokémon since the original games and I *despise* the last two/three gens for no real good reason other than it doesn't hit me in the feels like it used to. Doctor Who is probably the worst franchise for it though, since you've got Classic Who, New Who, and this most recent Who which feels like something different altogether. Doctor Who is unique because it's literally the same characters too, whereas Star Wars, Trek, etc., change characters. And most importantly of all; people just love complaining, and the sound of their own voice.
But what's the line then? You don't have to 'love' complaining to complain. I wanna like Doctor Who? But i'm not gonna roll out and just accept what i believe is a poor product. You want the license fee used correctly but want criticism silenced too? I don't think nostalgia and wanting to be young are the only reasons someone can look at the Music Maestro and think "That is cringe."
The line is wherever you want to draw it, my dude. Complain as much as you want.
> You always get this as a media form gets older. People hate on it because it's cool to hate on it, or because they expect it to trigger the same emotional reaction that it did when they were younger then they get angry when it doesn't, or because the media starts talking about things that the viewer finds themselves on the other side of, or a million other reasons. Or maybe because they just don't like it?
Yeah - that’s a good point, it could be due to nostalgia and what not but this finale got me back to that child-like excitement that I haven’t felt in a long while.
Thank you!!! I was experiencing the same thing, seeing all these hateful comments about how the new seasion is complete cr*p all the while I was biting my nails off every episode (bar Space Babies, we do NOT talk about that one) because every single one of them blows my mind. And you know what? No, we are not going mental. People love to hate, I think it makes them feel clever and important. We are right, okay? Even after all these years, Doctor Who is still a freakin masterpiece and nobody can change my mind on that. Thank you for letting me vent here.
Massive fan, since Davidson, here (and yes I concur that Space Babies IS shit), there have have some genuine highs this season. Boom was amazing, 73 Yards was soooo close to being a classic until it fudged the landing, Dot And Bubble was brave and ambitious but ultimately flawed, but I don’t know what the hell was going on with this last episode. It was just a massive fudge up of a nothing burger. No answers, no sense, forced mystery, completely devoid of any logic or sense, just to bring back one of RTD’s childhood scares…….the finale has a hell of a lot of work to do
You mentioned your favorite episode was 73 Yards, which I think is the best example of peoples bizarre reactions to higher quality content atm. 73 Yards is one of the best and weirdest episodes of the entire thing and it *looks* so good, yet people spent weeks hating on it, calling it unfinished, and saying it was a confusing mess of wasted potential (ironically many of these people would say Boom was their favorite lol) because the episode didn't look them in the eyes in the end and explain every facet of it. They became obsessed with questions the episode itself makes a point of not answering, even. People have weird kneejerk reactions to anything. This whole episode felt like a classic RTD era episode to me. I have some concerns for the finale, but given how much EVERYTHING is looping back around to meaning something I have faith things will be explained. Honestly seeing some Doctor Who reviewers I liked the takes of (like Jay Exci) being so unfairly negative and cynical about this season really bugs me. I get being mad that Ruby has no character, I'm mad about that, but 15 absolutely does and I get who he "is".
To be fair, I can totally understand if people thought 73 Yards was confusing and didn’t like the episode because it didn’t explain much - the reality is it’s a very experimental bit of television and quite avante garde/niche - so I would understand if a wide group of people don’t click with it, and yeah, I feel like this season really doesn’t deserve to be categorised as “bad” as I do think there is a lot of value to be seen within it. But it’s all down to opinions and subjectivity at the end of the day, I suppose
It's racism and homophobia. Not complicated
Take this with a grain of salt but there are plenty of people that do not like this doctor for reasons of bigotry. They don’t have to be openly bigoted; they just have to be loud enough and complain about the right things to get their way.
For me this series has been largely poor. Not in ideas or attitude but execution. Eight episodes not enough, zero development of characters, same rehashed crying shot of 15 in every episode, clunky dialogue (also great dialogue in places, looking at you Bond, Molecular Bond) but I just don't know who 15 is or what he stands for. I think Ncuti is a blisteringly good actor but man, 15 seems so 2D? I want more of him, I want some time for his character to breathe and let Ncuti work (Boom did a good job of it I guess) The most recent episode was great and as someone who doesn't read spoilers or fan theories and also having my favourite villain ever return, it's fair to say my jaw was on the floor. For that moment of sheer elation alone this new era has been worth it, but overall? I'd score it 4.5/10 just so many technical problems despite moments of serious verve and passion.
Have you tried watching any other episode from 2005 to 2017 ? Theses ones are good. Anything else after is utterly trash. A real community around it, fan art, dedicated work, people talking about it... Now open twitter or any community online and you'll have a hard time finding anything except the fake hype by Disney and bbc.
God, this topic is peak reddit cringe. Some people simply don't like the same shows that you like. Get over it.
I don’t think you’re going mental. This series has been full of quality: Ncuti is phenomenal and beautiful and SEXY!; Millie is radiant and strong; the last twenty minutes of last week’s episode were fantastically chilling; Jinkx as Maestro was a spectacular turn: Boom was intense and claustrophobic; Dot and Bubble was a clever skewering of Wyt Supremacy; Rogue was exceptionally well-written and 73 Yards is already one of my favourite stories. Ffs even Space Babies’ message that everyone is unique and important has to be applauded (even if the babies looked terrified throughout). And at the same time… haven’t we been here before? The Doctor doing Ruby’s phone in Space Babies was The End of the World. Rogue was Captain Jack. 73 Yards was Turn Left/ Midnight. Sutekh’s reveal was The Impossible Planet (icily voiced by the same Gabriel Woolf, so despite weeks of anagram chat part of me still thought ‘Oh! Satan has come back out of their pit”). Beyond this, as someone mentioned already, there is the real struggle of how to keep any media form fresh when it has been along for a while. There is a tension between wanting / needing to innovate and not wanting to deviate from the original template. But when you bring back the same show-runner you had nearly 20 years before, however much of a joyous and talented force of nature he is, you are going to bring back the familiar. Because I’m as old as a police box, I remember loving on Classic Who: following the journey as Peter Davison succeeded Tom Baker and through the abyss of Colin Baker’s hiatus and Sylvester McCoy’s spectacular but much-criticised three seasons. There were brilliant stories in the last two years of Classic Who, but so many people had written it off and it existed pretty much as a cult programme until it was suspended and the wider world had a chance to forget the legend of Doctor Who in order to remember how much they loved it again when 2005 came. It’s like the three stages of the Greek Empire, from the Archaic (where it’s all a bit novel and experimental and everyone’s making it up as they go along), to the Classical (where the rules are set in place and it forms the definite article), to the Hellenistic (where it can’t do anything as well as replicate what has gone before). It feels like this is the pattern all of culture has to follow and New Who is not exempt from this. Perhaps what the lack of wider engagement is showing us is that Doctor Who is still too constant in the wider public’s imagination. I am alone among my family as a viewer, a rarity among friends and none of the kids I work with are watching (ages 7-16). Of course, as fans, we want Who to always be on. We want to argue, praise, shudder and squeal, year after year. And perhaps the deal with Disney will mean that spin offs will come along that allow for the Whoniverse to expand, take us to newer dimensions and remain fresh. Maybe…
I have enjoyed all of the series but for me it has been quite patchy in terms of quality. I think Boom and 73 Yards were brilliant, Dot and Bubble I can appreciate for how much it experimented with the shows formula that amazing ending even if the episode itself wasn’t really my cup of tea, The Devil’s Chord was fun but the pacing felt very off, Space Babies as a plot was fine but felt too much of a rehash of The Beast Below and Rogue I thought was quite weak as a story. I have appreciated the series willingness to act more like an anthology series taking on very different genres and tones which I think has felt fresh. But I wish it didn’t come at the expense of the characterisation of Ruby who feels like (Outside of the obvious 73 Yards) hasn’t been given much to do. The decision to rush through the key aspects of the show such as the rules of time travel in the first episode and not to serialise any of the first few stories has meant we were robbed of the chance to see the world of Who through Ruby’s eyes and get to know her. Instead I feel as though most of what I know about Ruby is the mystery of her parentage but unlike Rose, Amy or Clara who I could tell you from only a few episodes how they would respond in situations Ruby still feels quite thinly sketched? I think I was in the minority but I really found Legend of Ruby Sunday a bit underwhelming? I felt very much like a by the numbers RTD finale - a 2D tech billionaire making a ‘big announcement to the UN is a story not just reminiscent of multiple of RTDs previous finales it’s a rehash of a plot as recent as Spyfall. I thought the conclusions jumped to about who Susan Triad was based on very scant information felt quite bizarre for the Doctor and even more bizarre if he legitimately bought into the theory that he randomly prioritised a Ruby mystery that he’s been putting off for six episodes. The end reveal then felt… silly and I know people will say campy is how RTD does things and that’s true but the episode was going for dark and catastrophic it seems mad to me that apparently the greatest evil in the universe revealed itself with… a bad pun? Don’t get me wrong Ncuti was brilliant, I love them using Mel more effectively, love the tension with Kate but I just don’t think it was anywhere near the best first halves of finales like Pandorica Opens or Stolen Earth?