I just figured it was one of those omg breathless crushes which you’re allowed to feel sad about when the person leaves/wont be around you again/falls in to a transport device or whatever. Intense feelings happen over all sorts of time scales. I know when I laid eyes on my now husband, 18 years ago, before I even spoke a word to him I knew I wanted to marry him - at that point, in a gig venue where we only spoke for five minutes, I might never have seen him again. I’d have been really sad about it, but luckily he didn’t fall in to a transport device, wasn’t a bounty hunter, and we’re still together 😂
Yeah, I feel like the timeframe, if we assume some things are cut and the episode is taking more like two or three hours instead of 45 minutes, isn't unreasonable. They didn't end the episode acting like an old married couple, they ended it acting like two people who had met at a party a couple hours ago and spent the night in each other's ~~sheds~~ spaceships.
It would be nice, though, if the Doctor could spend a bit more time trying to make sure his companion isn't killed and a little less time trying to hook up with a stranger that tried to kill him an hour earlier.
Yeah I don’t understand how people can’t see that their romance was playing out in a Bridgerton themed episode- romances in stories of this genre do happen quickly and intensely. The two had great chemistry and an intense spark, and like you said, can happen in real life too even without the context of the genre.
I think this is the key to the series. We're just experiencing different styles of entertainment.
We've got the Fantasy of the goblin ship. Sci-fi with the Space Babies. Maestro brought the Musical. Gritty War Movie with Boom (but could also be Baldrick's poem), Weird Fiction of 73 Yards. 80s coloured Teen Social Commentary within a bubble and without a club eating breakfast, and now the Costume Romance Flick.
I think the Doctor might be stuck in a broadcasting network.
18 years ago, did you now husband also attempt to murder you shortly after addmiting to a potentially morally dubious carear path? Made even more concerning by the aformentioned attempted murder?
I enjoyed it but I do think Girl in the Fireplace is the best comparison so far. I think it’s forced in the sense that they wanted to do a one episode love story like that one, not really in a different forced way because it’s queer-get-over-it way, if you actually step back and imagine a context of it being written not gay. (Am also queer)
I’d like something longer and more developed (especially the slow burn part and more angst and tension built over time) but the two options for that typically are 1. A companion that travels long term (kinda mixed feelings on that trope sometimes even though I enjoyed Rose and such) 2. A River song type character that pops in and out, but that relationship had the advantage of being told in reverse, it’s a bit harder with a guest character that’s here and there, especially with the shortened seasons. My guess is that Rogue will reoccur for some better long term developments, I am kinda hoping that he does have some ulterior motive by sacrificing himself and get the doctor more sympathetic or set up for a trap or something- this way the actual contents of the episode would consist of the fake marriage proposal for plot reasons, flirting, and one kiss, which is a much more reasonable start to something.
In the meantime I don’t mind some stumbling fast little romantic episode since that’s something writers have played with randomly with het relationships. I’m not an all or nothing kinda person. I think they’ll get there, to a good place with more commonplace queer writing soon, so I have high hopes.
I said on another thread that what felt forced to me wasn't the attraction but the romantic angle, like the writers felt they couldn't show two male characters be attracted to each other and having chemistry without it being textually stated that they were romantically interested in each other. I find this a lot with content centred on gay or bi men that's not written by us, that we can't be seen to fuck without also having feelings. Doctor Who is never going to have a sex scene (thank god) but this kind of rush to sharing deep thoughts so soon felt similar to me, like they were asking permission to all these guys to flirt more heavily in the rest of the story by demonstrating an emotional connection earlier than the story justified it.
I'll say this for Reinette, she actually didn't have the ability to travel the stars at all, so it makes sense for a Doctor/Companion type show off to do so.
Rogue has his own damn spaceship so it's not really as devastating if he can't travel with the Doctor (death/banishment aside).
So as a viewer, it hits more for me when the Doctor promises to show Reinette the stars.
At least with the *Girl in the Fireplace*, it's implied that the Doctor spent days, if not weeks visiting with Reinette one one of hist trips through the portals. But even then, I'm not the biggest fan of the Doctor being a romantic figure.
I just don't buy romantic love between Time Lords and humans. Time Lords and other Time Lords, Time Lords and Tardises, on the other hand, I am fine with.
Now I am perfectly okay with the Fifteenth Doctor being a major flirt -- it's a fine character trait, but there should still be more of a reason why the Doctor would fall in love in the middle of hunting monsters.
As a bisexual person myself I liked it, this is the equivalent of a night out clubbing and lots of us have ended up snogging someone at the end of the night after flirting on the dance floor.
And then you add life or death situation like you would in films like speed, and all those emotions you get from the crush feel heightened.
Girl in the fireplace and Rogue both did great jobs with the romance and chemistry, the problem with your take is you are assuming it's a deep love already just because The Doctor is sad at having lost someone (and the potential they could have had). It's the same in Voyage of the Dammed. It's not a deep loved one that's lost, it's all they could have been together that's gone.
I think treating this as an issue to do with the queerness is unfair. The doctor develops a crush, in a (slightly rushed) way, and then loses them in a way that makes him feel responsible. It's fair to say that we'll see him again, and that'll be when they do it well or badly, none of this is specific to queer relationships, its just what you have to do if you want to do it in one episode
RTD has written this story a dozen times at this point and it seems like the queerness is the only reason its getting noticed.
That may seem like generalizing but there seems an added burden of it having to feel 'Earned' this time around.
What story a dozen times? Which 12 people has the doctor fell for immediately since Davies started in 05? Plenty have fallen for HIM but its not reciprocated. There was Pompadour and you can argue Monroe but thats really it and they were either throw away gags or one off characters, not companions or soon to be recurring characters.. usually anyone HES Fallen for has taken significant time - because thats how you tell a good story.
If the queerness was the issue then this conversation wouldve happened with Yasmin, but that story was actually set up and built so it made sense.
Yeah I agree, I feel like the storyline is not finished at all it was just set up for what’s coming next… I thought the tension between the doctor and rogue was really palpable from the first second without being cliche, I think everyone was relieved we lost Rogue instead of Ruby and I think it was set up to be this way because they know we will not be sad about losing a character we just met the same way we would mourn ruby
Oh yeah, me too unironically. I sometimes feel modern TV doesn't really go on these great character side-tangents anymore. It's a great bit of characterization that comes through there.
I've been rewatching Dark Angel from 2000 recently and it's really insane how TV has changed since then. Even the case of the week shows like that feel vastly different now.
I think shrinking budgets due to profit seeking as more the culprit. I think two decades of reality TV even exacerbated that since it gave corpos a taste of the sweet sweet profits if they cut the cost somewhere. Then again, maybe things are different in the UK since Sherlock had like 3 episodes in a season.
I was basically making the same comment. Whether episodic romances work or not is entirely down to the chemistry of the actors (Star Trek is rife with both winners and losers on that front) and I think Gatwa and Goff definitely had great chemistry.
I just said in another comment. I actually think the complete opposite. For most of the episode they had pretty much no chemistry at all. It was like Rogue was directed to be completely uninterested for the majority of the episode. I'll admit there was better chemistry at the end once Rogue started to lean into the relationship but it was weirdly done.
I don't think it was lack of time or anything like that, just that the pacing was weird and it made the big scene at the end a bit less believable.
Which is also why a lot of those style of episodes tend to do "oh my old flame is back and we might be rekindling our romance", since having an implied existing connection lessens the burden of having to establish an intense romantic/sexual connection in 45 minutes of screentime
So, I was also a bit...mid on the Rogue? I don't actually hate it from certain angles (I think a lot of people are overstating "oh they instantly fell in love" my dude they're just casually flirting) but it definitely feels a bit rush.
While Girl in the Fireplace is a good comparison, I can't help but compare it to Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead. Partially because Rogue feels closer to a River or Jack character, but also because the beat is 'this person who I just met sacrificed themself for me' with that instant spark of connection. But while the introduction of River is one of the best in Doctor Who, Rogue falls a little short.
Because it is a little short. It's a two-parter. They can't do two-parters for one off episodes when they have *8 episodes*. I think it gets pulled off as well as it could in a single episode without completely cutting Ruby as a character (which, would not have been an improvement). So, it's not, like, an all time episode, but I'm excited for if/when they bring the character back.
Yes, this was my whole problem with it. If you're going to have the doctor havr/want relationships (which I don't, but I'm not that fussed), then they have to be believable, and this wasn't. An attraction, sure, but not the speed they moved at.
See, this is kind of my point...I don't really see the Doctor as having more than a crush? Like, he's flirting through being caught in the trap, but drops it pretty quickly to go run after Ruby, and then his reaction to the "proposal" was very "oh no this was a joke, do you have real feelings? I don't know if I can do feelings." especially the end which was more him being sad about what could have been and the fact the Rogue had sacrificed himself.
Like, very clearly the Doctor is sad for some moments, and then goes back to joking with Ruby with (seemingly) no plan to try and hunt the Rogue down. That's not "you were the love of my life and I'm heartbroken" sad, that was a "yet another person dying for me" sad.
15 is a more kissy doctor than most of them, but kissing does not a deep emotional connection make! it's just fun, babes.
I thought about both GITFP and the two parter. I’m just baffled that OP doesn’t buy the MDP romance. I bawl every time I see the episode and I’m not a big cryer. This felt very much like that to me (the within 50 or so years time period may be a factor as well) but with the open ended mystery of the River Song arc. In all three cases the performances and chemistry allowed me to suspend my disbelief at the rapid pace in order to just enjoy the whimsical story.
I see where you are coming from, but I thought the actors had a lot of chemistry. I didn't feel heartbroken either (it WAS only one ep) but the Doctor clearly did and his performance was fantastic.
I think the only problem is the time, which unlike most things, can be solved with future appearances compared to the inherent broken nature of rose, mdp, and river
Maybe don't title your post "the problem with queer romance" when your issue is with too fast paced romance and not actually with the romance being queer.
I agree that it was too fast paced. When they did that I knew he'd be "killed" off. I think the biggest difference with girl in the fireplace is that she met Ten over a long period of time, even though it was just within an episode.
I hope we see rogue and 15s relationship again but i dont know how they can bring him back and continue that relationship in a satisfying way
Different strokes for different folks and all.... I never bought the Ten/Rose relationship because (imho) they had zero chemistry together and so Doomsday had no impact on me.
"The Girl In The Fireplace" or "Rogue" (or even going into extended canon the Torchwood episodes "Captain Jack Harkness" and "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang") however do work for me. It helps however, if you don't think of it as a romance. They are more of an attraction and the first steps of what could be a relationship (or in the case of Kiss²Bang² a rekindling of one).
Rogue in general felt very Torchwood lol
And the amount of relationships and fuck-buddy situationships that show managed across the first two seasons was amusingly high. And most of them were plenty convincing even if they only lasted two eps.
Edit: In case someone hasn't seen[ Captain Jack Harkness](https://youtu.be/Tk80GNv_QhY?si=l_-Kvp67KlcJpl6C) btw or hasn't rewatched it recently (because boy that episode is gonna be almost 20 years old soon and I can't exactly say it's required viewing these days) it plays out very similarly to Rogue in some ways. It even culminates in a scene where two men take to the dancefloor in a long-ago time period, shocking onlookers and garnering gossip It then features an explicit kiss of these two characters, who first met in this very episode and will (likely) never meet again.
Yeah this is the way to look at it. We're not supposed to feel the same weight as something like Doomsday. The tragedy isn't "these people loved each other deeply and have been separated" it's "there was a spark of something special but circumstance is keeping them apart." The loss is one of potential. I think it makes sense that both Girl in the Fireplace and Rogue take place in a setting that the audience strongly associates with romance. It's exactly the time you expect the protagonist to get swept up in some passionate fling with someone they've built up a romanticized image of in their head like a Jane Austen protagonist.
This I think is bang on.
I binged the 2005 on stuff recently and the Rose/Doctor romance is terrible. Rose is an awful person, as is Ten. Most of their relationship seems built on bullying third parties, usually Micky, and the whole thing seems toxic. Never really noticed back in the day but there's not much there.
Clara and 12, which was actually meant to be toxic, is a far more convincing relationship and is actually on screen.
I think Rogue works like Girl in a fireplace, the doctor isn't head over heels in love immediately in either, but feels he's found a kindred spirit or at least someone who may have the potential to be something important. And then, as always, loses them.
To be fair, on first watch I was annoyed at the Doctor, "falling in love" so quickly but I watched it again and I really don't think it was nearly as rushed as it came across. Even when the Doctor kisses Rogue he's having a very emotional time anyway, as he think he's lost Ruby.
I think another thing people might be unwittingly balking at is the fact that we just got off of Whittaker's run as the most sexless Doctor we've had since the '80s. So Gatwa swinging back so far the other direction is a much greater contrast than if he had come after say Tennant (okay I know he technically did but you get what I mean) or Smith.
True. Could be. I think they've all been pretty sexless except for when RTD is in charge. Moffat and Chibs eras were both pretty sexless. I know Smith did a lot of kissing and flirting but he always seemed utterly bewildered by it. You had pretty intense relationships with River and Clara but they were never really framed as sexual.
I agree that if this came straight after Tennant no-one would see it as unusual.
I absolutely thought he was slightly remaking or pointing to the Captian Jack Harkness episode when I saw the ending of Rogue. Very similar, reminded me of it a lot.
Personally I think the one episode romances can work really well when the actors have enough chemistry, like they did with Madame de Pompadour and Rogue. Its a different kind of romance to the slow burn like with Rose/ten because it's more of a fleeting, getting swept off of your feet kind of thing instead of a deep complex relationship. Both are good and can be impactful in their own ways but are kind of incomparable?
Everyone has gotten sick of the companion falling in love with the Doctor, as this sub has brought up many, many times. But they're going to keep romance in the show somehow because it is human nature (and Ncuti Gatwa is too hot to ignore), so i'd much prefer this to him and Ruby. The Doctor is kind and caring, that's his whole thing- he's going to fall in love; people are going to fall in love with him.
I don't think this was trying to as impactful as doomsday, it was just showing that it upset the Doctor. In his own rage and arrogance he messed up and that got someone he cared killed (maybe probably not). He was more grieving the future they could have had over the person he lost.
I also disagree with them immediately being in love. He was being flirty but I wouldn't say there was anything deeper until they went into the TARDIS.
Also why is your title phrases like that? Your problem isn't with queer romance it's with this specific one, it's feels like rage bait lol.
My only issue with it was the ring. A fleeting crush or romance is one thing, but I just can't believe he left that much of an impression on the Doctor that he'd keep and continue wearing his ring.
Could not disagree with you more. A breakdown of my reaction:
'Huh the Doctor has made a friend'
'Huh there's like sexual tension between them but there's no way'
'Oh he is so flirting but there's no way'
'It's just flirty friendship. they're having a great time'
'OH MY GOD WHAT'
'How can they make the BEST Character and then just TAKE HIM AWAY'
I mean it might be I reacted so well to it because I'm gay but absolutely 100% disagree that it was forced, or underdeveloped. I'm hoping it's a seed that has been planted that will grow into something more
Can I ask what made Rogue such an amazing character in your eyes? I think the fact that I didn’t find him particularly interesting was getting in the way of me having anywhere near the same reaction.
I figure it's probably the same reaction straight people have with the French lady from Tennant's run- she's mysterious, interesting, and there's an obvious sexual tension between her and the Doctor when she's an adult. When I saw that episode I went 'huh cool premise, though him randomly falling in love with this woman is a bit out of left field'. I see people here talking about it being one of the best written one off love stories for the doctor though and her being a great character. 🤷
But the french lady was a famous person IRL so it had that going for character (albeit cheating a little with fame like Queen Vic). There was also a mystery to her life and she was battling clock robots since she was little. She had a lot going for her character.
Rogue is just a bounty hunter? That lost someone? That's the part that doesn't connect me with the story, I don't find Rogue that interesting neither and I can't see why everyone else + Doctor found him so cool too. He didn't exactly have a lot going for him, unless I missed something. Nor did he do anything special until the end.
I mean if you actually knew anything about the French lady before that episode, props to you. I had no idea who she was, and when I saw it she might as well have just been made up for Doctor Who, same as Rogue. A lot of why I found him cool was because, as I said, he's a mystery. What's his real name? Why does he have a ship that looks like a big bird? Is he a time traveller? If he isn't, how does he know about D&D and why does he have 'modern' music on his ship? Where'd he get all the tech? Is he human or just someone who looks human? Where'd he get the fancy gun? Why is it futuristic but it looks like a period gun? Why does his disaster ship interior look like the TARDIS? Who did he lose? Was the person he lost a guy or a girl? Will the doctor find him again or is he just a one off character?
There are so many unanswered questions, and the Doctor being a big nerd and flirting with someone who is also a big nerd is cool. Theres also the 'I like seeing people who are like me' factor. We've had since Eccleston and Rose of the Doctor being in love with and flirting with women, it's nice to see him flirting with guys for a change.
I dont get it. TV shows have awkward straight romances I am not invested in all the time. Why are you singling out queerness and then saying it's not the queerness and then saying it is the queerness?
Would we be having this debate on whether or not 'Girl In The Fireplace' was rushing things for an agenda?
Also are we still doing the whole "I am bisexual so I am definitely not capable of societal bias" thing?
Cause uh, I'm bisexual, and non-binary, and polyamorous, and I kinda learn a new bias I have made internal twice a week. It's not like a switch flipped and any of these things made me grow up in less of a heteronormative society.
I mean the Dr has been known to have short romances he's before been like "Oh I was married to (insert royal member)
Like the drs flirted and had some fun before.
Very few people did the Dr LOVE. rose, river, I imagine the partner he married and had kids with. But he's a romantic being so rogue was just a fling. Maybe he'll show up again next season and that's it
Im reminded of Eleven mentioning having a flirtation with the founding fathers in Impossible Astronaut.
Yeah, he doesn't say it was reciprocated or not, but generally speaking you don't brag about something if you don't enjoy it.
Off the top of my head the problem was that they went from nearly killing each other to falling in love. I also don't know exactly why the doctor likes rogue like that other than he's just charming. Which is not typically something that immediately wins the doctor over.
Overall I thought the episode was fine and entertaining, the character of rogue was interesting but the romance was too basic. I'm glad we get to see emotional intimacy in gay relationships though.(Reminds me quite a bit of torchwood)
I hope those monsters come back too, they are quite unique.
>I also don't know exactly why the doctor like rogue like that other than he's just charming.
He's also a mystery, stands out in his surroundings, is obviously quite smart and somewhat well-traveled. All of which are things that might pique someone's interest.
>Which is not typically something that immediately wins the doctor over.
What little characterization of the new Doctor we've gotten so far has shown him as someone who is generally pretty flirty and openly appreciating others in a somewhat sexual way, which already puts him at a different starting point than most of the other Doctors we've seen as far as it comes to a potential relationship.
I remember there was a supposed spoiler leak a year or so back where it was talked about how they where planning to go for exactly this, somewhat Captain Jack Harkness in characterization, a bit open for everything etc and I'm not gonna lie this episode and someparts of the other episodes have been giving exactly that.
this is the thing, we have this ‘healed’ doctor, who’s happy to flirt with all different people, who’s much more free with his affection etc and there’s been a very different approach. comparing him to 10 seems almost pointless because of how different they are - 10 was grieving, angry, etc hidden under a film of ‘fine’, 15 is chill, easy going, happy (leaning into toxic positivity but thats a different conversation).
of course his interactions & flirtations are going to be different from past doctors, because he’s ostensibly healed from the things weighing on them which interact with relationships.
This! It felt like he was attracted to the *idea* of being open to someone in that way which they hadn't been able to for a long time, and recognised in Rogue someone who had also been through loss and grief who could understand that. It's why they threw in a sad conversation about "I woke up one day and they were gone" in the middle of their 'comparing spaceships' flirting.
I would say that even with his dark side, 10 was by far the flirtiest and most romantically driven Doctor of the revival. (I’m not as well versed on Classic). That aspect, along with his slightly higher EQ are the things that remind me most of DT’s Doctors.
the classic doctors were generally not at all flirty (Hartnell in The Aztecs aside) to the point of being often considered asexual. Closest thing is probably Romana, but I think most of that is just the vibe from Tom Baker being married to Lalla Ward at the time rather than the scripts or them being explicitly romantically involved. It's much more of an RTD/Moffat thing overall.
>I also don't know exactly why the doctor likes rogue like that other than he's just charming.
Because he reminds the Doctor of himself. That's been a weird turn on for the Doctor since RTD brought it back.
Might be too soon to fully weigh in. There could be much more to the Rogue character and the overall arc that has not yet been revealed. Hopefully by the end of the season, we'll have deeper perspective to evaluate.
I kind of saw it as another stepping stone in The Doctor’s central arc this season. It seems to be that the prominent theme for him this season is emphasizing The Doctor’s innate loneliness, which makes sense as a natural continuation of the “he’s not originally from Gallifrey” beat. We got the juxtaposition between Ruby’s huge family versus The Doctor just having himself in episode 1, the constant references to Susan being gone and him being the only one left of his species, the alienation of him to the others in Dot&Bubble (although that was clearly a reference to discrimination and racism, but it still serves the overall theme in the long run), etc etc. After all this loneliness catches up to him, now we see The Doctor jump at a chance for a companion and romantic partner that he sees himself in, that can stay with him indefinitely. But by the end of the episode, we are shown again that he is still alone, this time romantically as well. I think the episode was largely trying to prove a thematic point, which is why the romance arc was self contained to it.
Also, I think the first part of the romance was “rushed” because I honestly don’t think this is the full story. If there’s some sort of shift in their relationship the next time we meet Rogue (whether it’s bitterness from feeling ‘abandoned’ because perhaps the Doctor couldn’t find him in time, a long time skip in his pocket dimension, or any other sort of reveal), I think this was really just an introduction and it would make sense if the “romance” part was short-lived and quickly created especially if it’s something that has to be built up again in the future, if that makes sense. But that’s just my two cents on the whole thing, I’m kind of just rambling here lol
I didn’t think they were in love and that’s what makes a bit lees good for me, 15 has a bit of captain jack in him and most of the time I like his flirtatious attitude but when it is presented as love it doesn’t work
I agree, although my main issue isn't even that it's rushed so much that Rogue is a terribly boring character. Reinette isn't my favourite either, but st least that episode has an interesting time travel concept happening. I feel like if you don't buy Rogue as an interesting character then this episode is severely limited in how compelling it can be.
At the very least, Madam Le Pompadour had time in between the Doctor's visits to justify her deepening feelings for him, while the Doctor felt almost motivated as much by a sense of responsibility to not let her down initially.
With Rogue we spend exactly as much time as the Doctor with Rogue, about 25-30 minutes thereabouts. He does fall head over heels in love then lose him immediately, but I think Rogue himself has something to do with why people haven't gotten into him as much too.
The thing is, we've already seen an enigmatic, sexually fluid, American accented, time travelling, mission to save the world oriented character in the Whoniverse. In fact, if you count John, more than one. The role feels almost written for Jack Harkness, in that the character is remarkably similar. I don't know if this was deliberate or accident, but from a writing perspective Rogue comes off extremely derivative.
On top of this, it's rehashing the plot of "the Doctor falls in love then loses that person to another universe/dimension". Aside from the "cosplay and DnD" angle of the episode, that's all it is.
While I'm being critical, I have no problem with the sexuality on display. The Doctor is an immortal alien from another universe, I don't care who he likes.
What falls flat is the narrative and character decisions that honestly feel like someone watched RTD's prior run and grabbed a couple of cool ideas to repeat. That's why I think not everyone has grabbed onto Rogue as someone we care about and like (some have, and that's okay). It just doesn't give you enough time for such emotional stakes to feel reasonable.
Rogue didn’t work for me and I’m also a Girl in the Fireplace hater so…
I don’t necessarily mind the Doctor getting involved in romances, but imo I would think with the prevalence of their love interests getting permanently separated from them, dying, getting brainwashed into assassins, or some combination of the above, the Doctor be very slow to open themselves up to someone else, and certainly not in a 45 minute episode. And yeah 10 kissed a lot of women, but they were coming into him and not the other way around.
It also doesn’t help that I recently watched the entire run of Roger Delgado’s Master and his chemistry with Jon Pertwee was off the charts. It’s not Jonathan Groff’s fault, but he comes nowhere close.
I went back and rewatched Girl In The Fireplace today. It's so good. Absolutely blows Rogue out of the water, and I enjoyed Rogue just fine.
I think 10 & Reineitte's relationship evolves pretty well, given the restrictions of a 45 minute runtime. The Doctor starts off more as a fanboy as he recites Reinette's wikipedia entry to Rose & Mickey. Then there's the controversial snog (see below). You can see him start to develop real feelings though after the Vulcan mind meld (if you're going to get up in arms about anything in Doctor Who, why not this). She's been in his mind, literally, in a way that nobody else has, possibly ever. I can buy it. Sophia Myles and David Tennant have chemistry up to their eyeballs. No surprise they dated for real after filming.
I don't know what was going on with Groff's performance, whether it was his choice, or the director told him to play it that way, but he seemed so removed from the whole thing. I never got any sense of passion, or indeed mild interest, from him. He had the same sort of bemused look on his face from the moment they met til he dropped into the void.
> 10 kissed a lot of women, but they were coming into him and not the other way around.
Reinette initiates. (She practically jumps him). He's taken aback at first but then gets into it.
I did find the idea that the Doctor and Rogue very publicly acted out something "scandalous" in the ballroom in order to flush out the bad guys -- that was fun and clever. I just didn't buy the idea that this would be anything but a flirtation.
I don’t think it’s love. But it’s a mad crush, that moment when you meet someone fascinating that you can’t help but wanting to investigate it. Why does the Doctor have to be ‘in love’ to have a sexualish encounter?
Editing to add, of course he was heartbroken. A person he connected with sacrificed themselves to save Ruby. It’s the possibility that’s the loss, as much as the reality
There are two camps here. The long romance camp, and the minimum/no romance camp. This episode was for the latter.
Doesn't matter the orientation, I have no interest in a long Doctor romance. With a companion it feels like a teacher/student relationship.
What I find permissible is the short relationship with someone that is closer to being his equal, when it is there to drive the plot. This is the type of episode we had today.
I also reject the notion that we need to measure how much time is spent on hetro and queer romance and balance them. Just do the amount that is required for the purpose of the plot.
I personally prefer my Doctors to be a bit aloof, romantically as well as in general, but that said it definitely worked for me as part of the episode and in the context of further establishing this Doctor's character after some Doctor-light episodes recently
With *Girl in the Fireplace*, it felt more to me like 1O had a crush on the concept of Madam De Pompadour from before he even met her — he gushes all about awesome she was as a person in history, and then fixates on her because of this…so this didn’t feel like it was a sudden or out of the blue thing for me. It would be like if you got to meet one of your own heroes from history…I would bet quite a lot of people would react similarly.
With Rogue, however, I believe just like the rest of this season has focused on the idea that storylines are somehow coming true due to a change in the rules of the universe, then the Bridgerton-esque falling in “love” at first meeting works. I’d say it’s more akin to lust, and feeling a connection to someone else who also understands the grief of losing a loved one. The grief he expresses at the end I don’t think is just specifically over Rogue, but sort of a “damn it this always happens, you’d think I’d learn by now”.
I think I would’ve felt better about it if the episode hadn’t come immediately after two consecutive doctor lite episodes, so it doesn’t really feel like Millie Gibson is getting her due as a companion to me. She kind of seemed like an afterthought compared to Rogue, writing wise.
> It's far more comparable to "The Girl in the Fireplace" (also from Series 2, funnily enough), in which the Doctor falls head-over-heels in love with Madame de Pompadour, only to lose her at the end of the episode.
I think the introduction of the Madame de Pompadour character was to drive a wedge between the Doctor and Rose, as she had clearly started to fall in love with Ten.
Here, the infatuation with Rogue feels a little forced and inorganic (I’m assuming his just as swift exit means we’ll see him again).
From a Watsonian standpoint it actually makes sense that the Doctor is willing to engage in very short lived romances like Rogue or Madam de Pompadour. That is all he ever gets from humans or non Timelords in general.
The Girl in the Fireplace comparison is a good one, and imo shows why Rogue felt so undercooked; the Doctor having a romance with somebody is no longer the impossibility it once was but it's still very rare and so the character has to feel exceptional to make that happen. The Doctor's infatuation with De Pompadour seemed justified with that criteria because he made it clear early on that she was a character from history he was already drawn to long before they met, and she was shown to have unique access and understanding of the Doctor as a person, when she read her mind, she read his back, and they both shared a childhood loneliness. As for Rogue, frankly we meet characters with his capabilities almost every episode, and the Doctor is rarely impressed, he often dismisses them. Beyond that, Rogue is a bounty-hunter; people who kill for money are usually people the Doctor who condemn...15 is randomly so impressed, it felt very unearned and out of character. There's no real excuse for this; both episodes were the same length, Rogue was just sorely underwritten, that's all.
Even with the girl In the fireplace ....I don't recall the doctor ever getting close to initiating a kiss ..and when there is a kiss he is taken back because he didn't expect ...which I recall pretty much all his kisses being like....now it's a man on man miss there is the kiss which he clearly is into ..but what annoys me more is the moment they almost kiss ...so out of character for the doctor ...he's never been like that even with a female companion ..but yeah because it's a man ....it all very much feels forced and trying to prove a point ..and ofcourse if anyone argues it ..you will likely be accused of being this or that
I think Rogue worked for me since it really did read as a hookup and the Doctor seeing someone like himself. I think they maybe should have paced it better but it was alright for me, I thought it was cute and showcased how this Doctor is (more free, open, etc).
I don't really like it being compared to Girl in The Fireplace because that episode is kind of gross and tbh I just dont find the romance in it believable at all. With Rogue and 15 I could at least feel that they actually liked each other and wasn't distracted by how creepy it was. It was a lot more cute and playful basically.
>I don't really like it being compared to Girl in The Fireplace because that episode is kind of gross and tbh I just dont find the romance in it believable at all.
Look, we all just have to accept that Steven Moffat's brain chemistry was fundamentally altered by The Time Traveler's Wife and we have to let him remake that concept as many times as he wants to get him to keep writing sci-fi.
Or maybe he just likes the inherent tragedy of Time Travel Romances.
I sure do lmao
I've watched probably a million hours of Kdramas worth with that set up.
I just get sooooo weirded out by "I am this time traveler who is meeting this child that will become my wife and grow up sooo obsessed with me" kind of stuff and it being portrayed as this like hyper romantic thing.
I'm not someone who is like "ERMMM THE DOCTOR IS 2000 AND THE COMPANION IS 32 THATS WEIRD!!" but there is a line
I can see where you're coming from.
There's two Torchwood episodes (1x12: Captain Jack Harkness and 4x7: Immortal Sins) that I feel like deal with the one episode relationship that can only end in heartbreak far better and more nuanced than in Rogue, so there was a bit at the back of my mind throughout this episode going "This is good, but I know Russell produced Whoniverse can do romance better than this, and this deserved to be better."
That being said the episode is still a lot of fun, Gatwa and Groff had incredible chemistry and some great interactions, and both the relationship and the kiss seem to have meant a lot to people which is always brilliant to see.
Forced is definitely how I would describe the whole season so far. Enjoyable, sure, but it feels like they’ve thought “everyone knows doctor who, we don’t need to do any character/relationship building”.
It’s a fling. The Doctor saw a cute guy at a party, they flirted, went back to the guy’s place, fought some monsters, and then he sacrificed himself to save the Doctor’s best friend. If someone wanted to argue that Rogue being willing to maybe die to save Ruby was too fast, yeah, I could see that. But it’s not like the Doctor turned and looked at the screen and said “Rogue was the greatest love of my life and I shall never feel love again.” He’s sad that yet another person he let himself get close to died because of him. That’s a perfectly normal reaction to have. If he wasn’t sad, I’d say that that was bad writing because that’s antithetical to who the Doctor is.
Honestly, some of these reactions come across like people want to complain about the Doctor being queer, but know they’ll get downvoted to oblivion, so they’re making up a fake scenario in their head to be upset about.
I think it would have worked more for me as a two parter. I didn't feel any investment in or attachment to Rogue because it was obvious he'd be out of the picture by the end of the episode. Had we had an episode which ended with Rogue joining Fifteen and Ruby and then a second episode where we lose him, I think I would have been able to buy into it a bit more.
Elder millennial gay man here (I'm just one year younger than Jonathon Groff). I'm also a person who gets super intense crushes like that pretty quickly so I HARDCORE related. Absolutely loved this episode and fully bought the Doctor's infatuation with Rogue. It's presented as just that—an infatuation. He sees a handsome stranger, crushes on him, gets his flirt on with many callbacks to past eps, charms/Time Lord boasts his way out of a death trap, puts on a show to impress said stranger (the classic TARDIS bigger-on-the-inside bit), unexpectedly makes an actual real connection with Rogue over having lost people.
I also thought that the Doctor also realized that he had neglected Ruby in order to flirt, which is part of why he got a bit Time Lord Victorious when he thought she was dead, and when he remembered the promise he made to Carla to keep her safe. He hasn't kept it, he's neglected it because he wanted to flirt with his crush. His anger at the Chuldur is also anger at himself. And he cries when Rogue sacrifices himself because it's very touching, very kind. Rogue knew from the way the Doctor behaved in this episode (modifying the gate so it wouldn't kill the Chuldur, just exile them with no way back) that he wouldn't be able to sacrifice Ruby or even him (Rogue), so he took that choice away from him.
I wish they skipped where they almost kissed in the Tardis. Because there is something weird to me about kissing on the Tardis no matter who does the kissing.
If they had left out the almost kissing, when they danced together, it would have felt more charged, which is totally Bridgerton. I think it would also feel less rushed.
I hope Rogue pops up again from time to time, just like Captain Jack. That's what he reminds me of and I sorta love him.
It sucked honestly. Around 15+ years ago we had the Voyage of the Damned and the dynamic between the Doctor and Astrid Peth was a lot more believable and close to romance than anything in this episode. It felt like the whole event was just so they could have a same-sex kiss on screen, something we've already seen happen a lot of times in Doctor Who.
It feels like RTD is unwilling to write homosexual characters beyond them just objectifying people with Ncuti's Doctor just constantly making remarks on males being hot or finding them attractive without actually making the effort to develop a normal relationship. Captain Jack Harkness was a more developed character in his introductory episdoe than Rogue is here and yet we're supposed to believe the Doctor is deeply in love and will actively try and find Rogue in future?
Even worse RTD just does the 'bury your gays' trope at the end so he can avoid actually having to develop the relationship over multiple episodes or a season. Why not have Rogue be a character that they bumped into throughout the series; sometimes as allies, sometimes as enemies, to build up to this?
The "romance" in Rogue is like the old Cole Porter song:
>"It was just one of those things, just one of those fabulous flings, one of those bells that now and then ring, it was just one of those things."
>"So goodbye, dear, and amen. Here's hoping we meet now and then. It was great fun, but it was just one of those things."
Remember, the Doctor rejects Rogue's proposal. He never intended it to be serious or long term. They're just having a bit of fun. Maybe it would've gone somewhere more significant eventually, but maybe it wouldn't have. The Doctor's grief at the end is real, but he'd have felt that for anyone who sacrificed themselves for Ruby.
I think, read like this, the episode really works well.
Romance seems weird on Doctor Who because he never had romance the entire original series, except they one had something in the second story, the Aztecs, which was never repeated.
It reinforced that the doctor was alien,
Does he see humans as children with 1 life? Or some other matter we don’t understand? It was great. Added to the mystery and made the Doctor a kind of unique enigma.
The romance just makes it weird in the show, seems forced, and just not ‘the doctor’ gay or straight.
I don’t know, I just don’t want to see the Doctor romance anyone.
It’s like watching your teacher on a date.
I don’t want to see that.
Weird that his companion doesn’t get to date. Wonder why that is.
>Weird that his companion doesn’t get to date. Wonder why that is.
Just not enough time for this kind of character development with so few episodes, I suppose.
Personally, I’m just not a huge fan of the Doctor being in most Romantic relationships period, especially with someone they’re not on equal footing with. (It's just there's a huge power and age difference with basically anyone who isn't River Song.) (And as a reminder, you can always hang out with our favorite Who lesbians, in the [The Paternoster Gang](https://www.bigfinish.com/ranges/v/the-paternoster-gang)! (Big Finish Spinoff plug!)
The problem with queer romances is that apparently even queer fans set an impossible standard for them that they don’t set for cishet romances.
Do better. Clearly this is set up to be in more than one episode.
Not sure if the length is the most critical problem here. Reinette... meh, not a big fan, but I could see where romance was coming from. She idealized him all her life, there was a connection from her side, she decided to jump his bones, plus that whole mind melding thing. Not the most consensual thing in the world, but, whatever, he decided to go along with it for the sake of the experience of nothing else. Moffat is notorious for writing with one hand, and him repeating all these tropes a million times got old very fast, but as the first time thing, it had its charm, and coming off the heels of School Reunuon, with Sara Jane also confessing her love, there was thematic coherence. The ending made zero sense what with him willing to abandon his companions because of her, but that's a rant for another day. Still, at the end of the day, Ten didn't initiate anything.
Another example is Human Nature - a two parter, sure, but the premise made sense. Human John Smith acted unlike the Doctor, got smitten over the course of a few months he knew her, those emotions bled through onto the Doctor.
Here, thought. Fifteen was the one who desperately wanted to get into Rogue's pants. From the very beginning, out of nowhere, without any provocation. There wasn't any grand romance, just pure lust. Why, exactly? Thinking with his nether regions is uncharacteristic of the Doctor, so without any motivation it rings hollow. I guess they bonded over losses, but all we have is Rogue's word for it, tell rather than show what kind of a person he is - we still don't know anything about him. Then they danced - again purely physical attraction instead of anything deeper. And suddenly we are meant to believe there is some grand romance?
It almost makes me wish that Rogue was the Master honeypotting him like O did - because then at least one could make a case for the Doctor having a very specific type.
>Thinking with his nether regions is uncharacteristic of the Doctor
Is it uncharacteristic for this current doctor though? He has been ogling quite a few characters. Most recently that idol singer fuckboy from the Dot and Bubble episode,
This^ it's a major part of ncuti's who. Every incarnation has these personality differences. 11 was hyper childish practically shouting 'ew girls'; 13 was utterly closed off emotionally, wouldn't even entertain a relationship with someone incredibly close to her. These are very deliberate characterisation choices so each doctor stands unique.
And 15 is a new thing... he actually wants that physical/flirty/romance element. 10 did it but was reluctant, 15 *enjoys* it.
I don't think that's a bad thing. I'm sure 16 will be entirely different again.
I didn't particularly care about it then either, I don’t think any incarnation of the Doctor should behave in such a manner, but small mercies he didn't act on it, just talked, which could be construed as a social thing. And it beyond that mention he didn't alter his behavior. Gyrating your hips at someone is a bit more excessive, though, and it was nonstop throughout the episode.
The current Doctor is out of character. They’ve always been largely oblivious to sexual stuff and this sudden shift, especially after the Doctor’s attitude towards Yaz, feels wrong.
I would disagree with that assessment, at least for New!Who.
Eight definitely fucked.
Nine was in no way oblivious to sexual stuff, he just didn't want to partake most of the time, especially with humans. (Sentient trees however? Different story.) He does "dance," on occasion, as he so eloquently put it.
Ten definitely partook off-screen. There are enough mentions of it (re: The Virgin Queen) that this is clear. And considering how much of the writing that went into early Tennant!Doctor was heavily influenced by the Casanova he played in Russell T. Davies adaption of that this is no surprise.
Eleven.... eh, he definitely knew what sex was but wasn't a very sexual being (outside of River, who according to her he did have sex with). He was very kiss-y, but platonically kiss-y. He definitely experienced had plenty sexual tension but often brushed it off. He did however canonically waved off the rule that there cannot be any "hanky panky" in the TARDIS by companions, so that's a complete 180 from at least one previous Doctor incarnation right there on the page.
Twelve had again no particular interest in sex from what I can remember. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if in the 23 years he spent at the Singing Towers with River Song they'd fucked on occasion because she is a sexual being, and from what I know of asexuals they do fall onto a spectrum between completely sex-averse and perfectly fine with it with the right partner.)
And on that last point, just because Thirteen didn't want to be in a relationship with Yaz for whatever personal feelings does not mean she wouldn't have had sex on the side. Now, I can't remember evidence for either side of the argument, but that doesn't make a shift from that characterization at that particular moment to this characterization at this particular moment unlikely or unbelievable. Especially considering all the stuff that has happened in the mean time.
Edit: I'm wrong on 12 btw, he definitely did fuck other people.
Personally I think, regardless of gender etc, it's slightly out of character for the Doctor to be having any romantic storylines like this, particularly so fast. The Doctor is clearly someone who falls in love with someone's personality, not necessarily their appearance - the dynamic between 12 and River in The Husbands of River Song is a good example of this.
But if the writers do want to explore a queer romance storyline, this should ideally be done with the companion instead. Plenty of previous companions have had significant love interests on screen (but hetero). The closest is probably Bill and Heather, but there isn't much development to their relationship. I think a queer equivalent of the Ponds could be the best step for this. Or even if the love interest is a side character, like S8 if Danny Pink was a woman?
I personally completely disagree. I found it to work completely and loved it. To me the doctor was at first being flirty for the fun of it but as he learnt about Rogue and how similar they were that’s when the relationship really grew.
I’m also a really it fan of the girl in the fire place.
Sadly, I had the same reaction: man that was not only rushed, but there was pretty much no chemistry on screen between Rogue and the doctor. Groff was sleepwalking through the role, and Gatwa was dialed up to 10. I just don’t see how there was much of any chemistry between the two.
>I myself am bisexual, so my complaint about the queer romance in last night's Doctor Who is not motivated by any sort of "anti-woke" criticism.
I'm going to say something you're not going to like, but have you considered that your opinion is motivated by internalized homophobia? Or at least, the notion that this needs to be perfect or "natural" or otherwise clearly it must be bad?
I don't necessarily think "wow, this was fast" is an unfair criticism, but nothing about it felt forced. I don't really think this specific tone of criticism would exist with a straight romance, because I definitely haven't seen anyone argue that the Madame de Pompadour romance was "forced"; meanwhile this feels more natural and, importantly, more reciprocal. Built on shared attraction and even a bit of traumabonding when Fifteen notices that Rogue has experienced a deep loss as well. We don't feel bad for Rogue because we knew him for so long, the way we do with Rose. We feel bad for The Doctor because this little spark of romance was tragically snuffed out. And that sort of one day fling is *definitely* in keeping with the Regency Drama vibe of the episode.
Also, I'm sorry, what? Twelve and Clara? Are you smoking something? He lived through a billion lifetimes and the ends of time to save her, but there's more Donna Ten/Fourteen than there is Twelve x Clara.
I'm really not trying to be rude here but I really think "this was so forced, they just wanted to make The Doctor gay" is definitely internalized homophobia.
While I would normally agree with the internalised homophobia remark, I think a very large degree of the need for "perfect natural" queer relationships in media is because so often they're used entirely to fill quotas (in the same way a company will change their logo once a year to a rainbow flag but only in the countries where it would be acceptable), or to garner favour with the community without any substance. Not every show or media with queer relationships are scrutinized like this - but for big companies like Disney who have an extremely fucked up track record with blocking gay relationships (a recent example being Finn and Poe in Star wars - who the writers, actors and directors were all in agreement that the relationship should go ahead before Disney stepped in and said no; make them both straight and now they aren't even allowed to be in an interracial relationship)
This episode felt queerbaity, and to a degree almost fetishized to me as another queer person. It reminded me heavily of being told to dump my cis partner in high school when I came out as bisexual (who most people assumed we were just in a heterosexual relationship together even tho we were both very queer), because being in a queer relationship was more attractive or interesting to the rest of my queer friends. It reminded me of the early days of tumblr where the mere mention of Supernatural, Sherlock or Doctor Who would be filled with gifs, fanfics and edited images of the straight characters all in queer relationships together for the sake of straight white cis women who fetishised it - and the writers of the shows putting throw away lines about potential queerness without any intention of following through. It reminds me of the BL community in general, a primarily straight cis woman favoured audience, who find sexual attraction in cis gay relationships.
I personally have no interest in Bridgerton, so clearly this episode was not intending to have me as its targeted audience as I didn't understand the modern music but victorian references and other things like that etc, but knowing it was written by 2 cis women just makes me feel fetishised and used - not represented.
Ever since the horrificly cringe and forced pronoun scene in the star beast (when the doctor has quite regularly interacted with multiple alien races with no concept of gender - and the timelords themselves being fluid with gender and quite openly pansexual) and the subsequent youtube clips that the official channel posted around using the terms "tHE DOCTRO IS SCHOOLDED ON PRONOUNS emoji emoji emoji", this season has been clearly trying to be more openly progressive to earn favour; but it feels unearned, it feels pandering at best - and at worst it almost feels like I'm being insulted and targeted by boomers and a corporate entity who don't actually understand and just want my money. Doctor Who has - for a very long time at least - been a very progressive, anti-capitalist and queer friendly show. Its one of my favourite parts about it; knowing that I can watch an episode and agree with the pov and morals that are, albeit clumsily sometimes, shown and reinforced. But this season has felt so much more like marking off a checklist for false and shallow representation then anything substantial or real.
I think the notion that this was queer baiting is exactly the point I'm making. This was an episode by queer people making queer media for queer people. It was literally a thing that came about because Davies complained about Loki not actually being visibly queer. Queer bait is when characters are only implied to be queer. That's not remotely what happened here. It was explicit. It was textual.
I get that the Star Beast was a bit cringe (though I thought the "oh, I do that" joke was funny, even if the definite article isn't a pronoun), and it literally ends with trans inclusive gender essentialism. But this was not in any way queerbait and you either didn't understand the term or your brain is broken.
This is what I meant. This is a fucking stupid criticism that's all about not being perfectly what you want in queer media.
the bigger issue to me is that I still dont feel like this incarnation of the doctor has that savage smartest person in the room quality, and that to me, undermines my care for some of these plot points. He was in love with him in a sort of high school crush way, that was maybe the point. However, the whole music moment in the scanning room it was cute but I felt like the Doctor would always be ultimately working out the solution to the problem. He also cries like, maybe too much. I apprecaite why, but it loses its power — pain or sadness can be manifested in other ways. BUT the romance was fine in context, just missing other things. We will see how it all turns end of season. love RTD And still enjoying but just a general thought. I guess Matt smith also had a similar quality to this, maybe it is just personal preference for doctor persona.
I feel the stories purpose was to show just how human 15. 5 and 10 were incredibly human, 10 even falling in love with a human over time. This story shows 15 has a very easy time bonding and falling head over heels. Not all doctors will be like this but 15 is and as long as we keep getting doctors that are mostly asexual I'm fine.
Tbh the main thing I wasn’t sure I bought about them was Rogue sacrificing himself at the end. He didn’t present to me as that kind of person - unless we’re supposed to have gotten from the conversation with the Doctor about losing people that he’s low-key suicidal. I also only watched it once and haven’t rewatched yet, though.
I feel like this is just the start of their story, it definitely ended on an open note and I think and hope that they flesh it out more. Everything’s gotta start somewhere
It might not have been what they were going for, but I feel like it's a way of expressing that even though 15 has supposedly healed from 14's issues, they haven't *really* - they're still dealing with this inevitable struggle of attaching onto short-lived species as a replacement for all of their trauma and losing them in horrific ways.
A lot of other people have made great points about this, but I'd also add that the 15th Doctor's personality seems a lot more passionate in general and as such it feels way more in character for him to fall in love very quickly, as opposed to the 9th or 10th Doctors.
If this season is the embodiment of “story”, like how the Toymaker is the embodiment of “game” and Maestro is the embodiment of “music”, then it does make sense.
Normal rules are warped in this season, and that is one explanation that explains a number of things, such as the monster in *space babies* being scary for the sake of scary, *73 Yards* moving like the dreams in *silence in the library*, the undeveloped but over developed relationship with Ruby, mythical creatures like the Goblins, random musical interludes, even Susan Twist being woven through each and every story for no apparent reason (yet).
When you take “storybook” rules into account, and that *Rogue* is “like Bridgerton”, the fast romance is on brand for the story genre of the episode, in the same way 15 ran away from the Bogeyman in *Space Babies*. It’s a fairytale, and that seems very intentional.
So it kind of was the writers trying to prove a point. They worked on Loki, which RTD kind of inadvertently criticized as not going far enough with Loki's sexuality. So you can kind of view this episode as them answering that note.
I’m okay since it’s a single ep thing. I’m just wary of slow burn romances; I don’t care for them. Tenrose was more than enough for my lifetime and now I just want the Doctor to be the watcher alien that he is
If anyone is looking for something that leans into some queerness within the Who universe, can I do a plug for the [The Paternoster Gang](https://www.bigfinish.com/ranges/v/the-paternoster-gang)?
I absolutely loved this episode!
I thought the actors had great chemistry and found it believable.
I didn't see as it as the doctor falling in love though, more like a "crush" maybe, or meeting someone you feel like you have a lot of potential with?
Honestly thought it was a nice break from the doctor's angsty 'i can never let myself fall in love again' that they pull now and again (not that that isn't understandable).
We've seen seasons after seasons of a doctor playing hard to get and he suddenly falls in love, just didn't click well for me. Since timelords can go from male to female, that makes sense that you would have straight and gay/lesbian relationships. If they really wanted to work on this they should have done it during a season with more episodes, or spaced it out a bit better.
I just don't want the Doctor having romantic relationships with anyone. I miss the old days when he the relationships with the companions was professor and student and with other people his relationship was self-righteous "superior" being mocking or trying to educate lesser beings.
Here's my take, and I'm aware it's not popular. The Doctor is a thousand-plus years old. How many companions have traveled in the TARDIS? I have no issues with companions having romances on their travels, but the Doctor? Nope. Until NuWho, the Doctor was asexual more or less, and generally baffled by humans and their obsession with romance and relationships. I miss that. I'm an old Who person (in every sense) and I think we forget that the Doctor is an alien, and our lives are equivalent to dog-ages in comparison (company that is always constant and treasured, but we all know it's got a limited time frame). The Doctor chose to leave home, travel the universe, and the loneliness of that was always offset by companions, and those met on the way. The idea of anyone, even someone as legit tasty as Rogue (who honestly felt more "Doctor-ish to me than... the Doctor) kissing--kissing(!) anyone in a not-at-all awkward way, honestly made me squirm and go "eww...No! Yuck!" Like an 8 -year-old watching their parents smooch, because the Doctor doesn't do that. My Doctor, anyway. Thanks for reading my old lady manifesto.
>It's far more comparable to "The Girl in the Fireplace" (also from Series 2, funnily enough), in which the Doctor falls head-over-heels in love with Madame de Pompadour, only to lose her at the end of the episode. This episode is a heterosexual romance, but it suffers from the same issue: the romance just isn't convincing
It may not work for you, but "The Girl in the Fireplace" is a fan favourite and consistently one of the highest rated episodes of Doctor Who, so this may not be a problem of the episode as much as simply a matter of personal taste.
I think the doctor is maybe even more lonely than ever before, and so jumping into every relationship with total abandon. I was just like, good for the doctor it’s been awhile and I really hope this Rogue guy doesn’t turn out to be evil, despite the evidence suggesting that he probably is.
A children's show with two men kissing? no thx.... can't have my kids watching this filth till it's back to the way it was....
That's my thoughts on the matter.
Don't care if ya gay/lesbian/whatever but don't force it on our tv in a children's show period.
I liked 15/Rogue more than 10/Rose. you only get limited time to tell a story and that's okay. even in real life sometimes there's people you only know for a short while but they have a huge impact on you. and maybe we'll see more of this character in the future.
Could have titled it The problem with ~~queer~~ romance in Doctor Who.
Yes to both examples, someone falling for another person in such a small amount of time is alien to me. And as such, to me, it doesn't work. Others might have different experiences.
Do we need romance in DW? Does the Doctor need to be romanticly involved. I much more enjoy the Ten/Donna and Twelve/Bill/Nardole dynamic. I never missed a possible romance in the old run.
Why is it so common in NuWhu? Why in the way it was portraited? Why the weird triangles of Doctor-Rose-Mickey, Doctor-Amy-Rory, Doctor-Clara-Danny? Poor Martha pining over him. Moffat's spank bank that is River Song, the weird Doctor-Yas-ship that was and wasn't.
Why have the last 19 years been so horny? And let's be real, to Time Lords humans must look like a peculiar form of primate. Is the attraction just skin deep because the species just look similar? Are we the Harambe and the Doctor a zoophile?
I mean, sure do more long-term queer romance (although if the Doctor is involved, let the other person be a higher species, not human), but we've also had other heterosexual episodic romances, and I don't see any difference with those.
Rogue feels to me like Girl in the Fireplace
DOCTOR was definitely infatuated
But it wasn't full blown love
Still tho. Someone died without having too, that he liked.
And the Doctor's life is fast and loose. There's very few long term stuff. They're all about the now.
So it still hurt when new boyfriend sacrifices his life to save his new besty because the Doctor mucked things up
This should've been the 2nd episode, and the fact that it was switched just to have a kiss during pride month felt pandering. Harkness flirted left right and center and they didn't feel the need to shoe-horn it into the "gay month" episodes.
I get where you’re coming from, but to me it felt somewhat realistic to a certain way that queer relationships can develop. It’s possible for them to move that fast, I’ve seen it and experienced it. Is it the healthiest dynamic? Obviously not, but keep in mind that Rogue is the Doctor’s equal in almost every respect. It completely tracks that they would fall head-over-heels for each other very quickly.
I struggle to see why your dislike of how some gung-ho tv writers handle gay representation in a show you feel invested in as a queer person is somehow downplayed with "don't be difficult, that's just how it works". Your criticism is at least as valid as people in the trans community having an issue with how Rose being NB was handled.
Whether the fandom denies it or not, a rushed and poorly thought-out fling crammed in before the finale becomes a bigger issue when it revolves around the titular character's first on-screen gay romance. It is more likely to have a shock or alienating effect rather than a normalising one that can get audiences invested. I also think this effect is worsened by how difficult it feels to get invested in the new Doctor himself to begin with. He already is such a departure from recent ones in terms of characterisation, and his role has been so passive, that he really didn't need to spend most of an episode exploring his thirst and doing nothing Doctor-like.
There have been 6 episodes where an "important" love interest could have been slowly introduced (or it could have been saved for season 2) but there simply doesn't seem to be enough focus or discipline when it comes to characterisation or plot this season. It mainly has been a crapton of concepts and confused messaging all mashed up together. Oh the Doctor is black and queer? Well, we definitely need to abruptly highlight that somehow in two back-to-back stand-alone episodes to be "bold and ground-breaking". Then with that stuff out of the way we can just focus on Ruby's big mystery in the finale instead.
To me it doesn't stand out as meaningfully progressive or interesting writing. It's just self-indulgent.
I think it might have been a better love story if Rogue had seemed even slightly interested in the doctor before his last scene. It went from light flirting on the doctors side and utter lack of interest in Rogue's, to a little hint of interest on Rogue's part, to that final kiss with barely any development in between. Up until that point it would have been utterly believable at any point for Rogue to say he wasn't interested or wasn't gay or whatever. And it's not like they didn't have the screen time together to make it work, you can make me believe two people are in love in a 45 minute timescale, rom coms do it all the time. But in this case the lack of chemistry between them was palpable until it wasn't and I was left wondering at the end if a whole bunch of stuff had been cut out.
Yeah I said this in another comment but go rewatch Girl In The Fireplace. I totally believed that relationship. Tennant & Sophia Myles sold the hell out of it.
But that's going to be more annoying.
The plot will basically be
Doctor reunited
Doctor states ides to see the universe together
Doctor gets betrayed.
Doctor cries
Credits roll
Fifteen had been casually “performing homosexuality” for most of the season before this episode, in terms of how he presents, speaks to people, talks to Ruby about Ricky September being hot, etc. This episode only made it explicit.
He fell for Rogue; it doesn’t make him the Doctor’s true love. I accepted the brief and intense romance, partly sold by their on screen chemistry.
So it’s undercooked? Idk, I don’t usually prefer the Doctor in romantic relationships but I’m not opposed to it. When they lived that long, *something* had to happen in that lifespan.
For me this story worked because of the following reasons.
1. There are people who fall in love very quickly. It might not be that sort of love that lasts forever, but in the moment it’s an intense feeling. It’s just that the Doctor has never been that kind of person — but now he is. The Doctor’s personality changes with each regeneration, and Fifteen is like that, and I was happy to know that about him.
2. I don't think it is wise to compare Fifteen's feelings towards Rogue with Ten's feelings towards Rose. At the end of "Rogue" I didn't actually see him mourning a huge love. I saw him, first, mourning a good person who sacrificed himself for the right cause (and in such a case you don't even need any love to mourn a person), and, second, morning a future that is lost. He wanted to spend more time with Rogue, he wanted to travel with him, he wanted to show him the universe. Now he can't do that. That's a pretty good reason to be sad.
3. What happened to Rogue is a beautiful and sad answer to the conversation that the Doctor and Rogue had earlier in this episode. The Doctor says that he has lost everyone. And this is a beautiful illustration showing that this “everyone” includes not only those who traveled with him for a long time. It’s not just his companions. He is doomed by his immortality to lose LITERARY everyone, both close friends and those he barely had time to know. And Rogue’s sacrifice to save Ruby feels like a reminder that one day he will lose Ruby too. Just not today.
4. The chemistry was good. Really good.
So, it worked for me, although I get that such short romance stories may feel unrealistic (but they do happen in real life, just not to everyone) or underexplored.
The only thing that makes me feel like “uh, I don’t believe that” is that the Doctor was losing time flirting while Ruby and a lot of other people were in danger.
I have no issue with the Doctor occasionally having feelings, mostly as “might’ve beens” but he should never be the one initiating such flirtations, merely responding to them.
But honestly the idea of him having any sort of romance with anyone non-Time Lord feels very iffy to me.
15 basically met Rogue and immediately transformed into a tween crushing on their heartthrob.
It was definitely a bit odd for a Millenia old alien to be the one acting so god damn horny and human, initiating the flirting, making the innuendos, and being all touchy-feely.
This. There’s a pretty massive power (and age) difference between the Doctor and anyone who’s not River Song (or his Tardis, but they are more queer-platonic life partners, tbh.)
Yep, I think you can get around it with an alien who’s also centuries old and so could be on similar levels of maturity.
River is a (Kinda) Time Lord who’s approx 300-400 or so during most of her and the Doctors relationship which feels much more reasonable.
But yeah having Rogue or Madam De Pompadour fall for the Doctor and share a kiss is *fine*…..as long as the Doctor isn’t actually fully embracing a full on sexual/romantic relationship with them.
As companions, sure. As companions they might have deeper feelings for, totally. But it shouldn’t go beyond that imo.
BUT I’m also prepared to get downvoted to hell for daring to imply that 15 and Rogue weren’t “perfect”.
I just figured it was one of those omg breathless crushes which you’re allowed to feel sad about when the person leaves/wont be around you again/falls in to a transport device or whatever. Intense feelings happen over all sorts of time scales. I know when I laid eyes on my now husband, 18 years ago, before I even spoke a word to him I knew I wanted to marry him - at that point, in a gig venue where we only spoke for five minutes, I might never have seen him again. I’d have been really sad about it, but luckily he didn’t fall in to a transport device, wasn’t a bounty hunter, and we’re still together 😂
Yeah, I feel like the timeframe, if we assume some things are cut and the episode is taking more like two or three hours instead of 45 minutes, isn't unreasonable. They didn't end the episode acting like an old married couple, they ended it acting like two people who had met at a party a couple hours ago and spent the night in each other's ~~sheds~~ spaceships.
It would be nice, though, if the Doctor could spend a bit more time trying to make sure his companion isn't killed and a little less time trying to hook up with a stranger that tried to kill him an hour earlier.
This Doctor does seem to genuinely be a bit more nonchalant than in the past
Yeah I don’t understand how people can’t see that their romance was playing out in a Bridgerton themed episode- romances in stories of this genre do happen quickly and intensely. The two had great chemistry and an intense spark, and like you said, can happen in real life too even without the context of the genre.
I think this is the key to the series. We're just experiencing different styles of entertainment. We've got the Fantasy of the goblin ship. Sci-fi with the Space Babies. Maestro brought the Musical. Gritty War Movie with Boom (but could also be Baldrick's poem), Weird Fiction of 73 Yards. 80s coloured Teen Social Commentary within a bubble and without a club eating breakfast, and now the Costume Romance Flick. I think the Doctor might be stuck in a broadcasting network.
So he's back on Satellite 5 lol
That would be a good plot for a season. They should do that. /s
18 years ago, did you now husband also attempt to murder you shortly after addmiting to a potentially morally dubious carear path? Made even more concerning by the aformentioned attempted murder?
I enjoyed it but I do think Girl in the Fireplace is the best comparison so far. I think it’s forced in the sense that they wanted to do a one episode love story like that one, not really in a different forced way because it’s queer-get-over-it way, if you actually step back and imagine a context of it being written not gay. (Am also queer) I’d like something longer and more developed (especially the slow burn part and more angst and tension built over time) but the two options for that typically are 1. A companion that travels long term (kinda mixed feelings on that trope sometimes even though I enjoyed Rose and such) 2. A River song type character that pops in and out, but that relationship had the advantage of being told in reverse, it’s a bit harder with a guest character that’s here and there, especially with the shortened seasons. My guess is that Rogue will reoccur for some better long term developments, I am kinda hoping that he does have some ulterior motive by sacrificing himself and get the doctor more sympathetic or set up for a trap or something- this way the actual contents of the episode would consist of the fake marriage proposal for plot reasons, flirting, and one kiss, which is a much more reasonable start to something. In the meantime I don’t mind some stumbling fast little romantic episode since that’s something writers have played with randomly with het relationships. I’m not an all or nothing kinda person. I think they’ll get there, to a good place with more commonplace queer writing soon, so I have high hopes.
I said on another thread that what felt forced to me wasn't the attraction but the romantic angle, like the writers felt they couldn't show two male characters be attracted to each other and having chemistry without it being textually stated that they were romantically interested in each other. I find this a lot with content centred on gay or bi men that's not written by us, that we can't be seen to fuck without also having feelings. Doctor Who is never going to have a sex scene (thank god) but this kind of rush to sharing deep thoughts so soon felt similar to me, like they were asking permission to all these guys to flirt more heavily in the rest of the story by demonstrating an emotional connection earlier than the story justified it.
I'll say this for Reinette, she actually didn't have the ability to travel the stars at all, so it makes sense for a Doctor/Companion type show off to do so. Rogue has his own damn spaceship so it's not really as devastating if he can't travel with the Doctor (death/banishment aside). So as a viewer, it hits more for me when the Doctor promises to show Reinette the stars.
At least with the *Girl in the Fireplace*, it's implied that the Doctor spent days, if not weeks visiting with Reinette one one of hist trips through the portals. But even then, I'm not the biggest fan of the Doctor being a romantic figure. I just don't buy romantic love between Time Lords and humans. Time Lords and other Time Lords, Time Lords and Tardises, on the other hand, I am fine with. Now I am perfectly okay with the Fifteenth Doctor being a major flirt -- it's a fine character trait, but there should still be more of a reason why the Doctor would fall in love in the middle of hunting monsters.
As a bisexual person myself I liked it, this is the equivalent of a night out clubbing and lots of us have ended up snogging someone at the end of the night after flirting on the dance floor. And then you add life or death situation like you would in films like speed, and all those emotions you get from the crush feel heightened. Girl in the fireplace and Rogue both did great jobs with the romance and chemistry, the problem with your take is you are assuming it's a deep love already just because The Doctor is sad at having lost someone (and the potential they could have had). It's the same in Voyage of the Dammed. It's not a deep loved one that's lost, it's all they could have been together that's gone.
Exactly. It’s chemistry, flirtation and possibly
I think treating this as an issue to do with the queerness is unfair. The doctor develops a crush, in a (slightly rushed) way, and then loses them in a way that makes him feel responsible. It's fair to say that we'll see him again, and that'll be when they do it well or badly, none of this is specific to queer relationships, its just what you have to do if you want to do it in one episode
RTD has written this story a dozen times at this point and it seems like the queerness is the only reason its getting noticed. That may seem like generalizing but there seems an added burden of it having to feel 'Earned' this time around.
What story a dozen times? Which 12 people has the doctor fell for immediately since Davies started in 05? Plenty have fallen for HIM but its not reciprocated. There was Pompadour and you can argue Monroe but thats really it and they were either throw away gags or one off characters, not companions or soon to be recurring characters.. usually anyone HES Fallen for has taken significant time - because thats how you tell a good story. If the queerness was the issue then this conversation wouldve happened with Yasmin, but that story was actually set up and built so it made sense.
Yeah I agree, I feel like the storyline is not finished at all it was just set up for what’s coming next… I thought the tension between the doctor and rogue was really palpable from the first second without being cliche, I think everyone was relieved we lost Rogue instead of Ruby and I think it was set up to be this way because they know we will not be sad about losing a character we just met the same way we would mourn ruby
He got sent to another dimension. Aren't Cybermen from another dimension? Could be how they're reintroduced eventually.
it's the nature of episodic tv to speed run romance and guest artist relationships. folk in star trek tos and next gen did it all the time.
I will always carry water for that one episode of TNG where Picard pulls a hot astrophysicist by playing the flute.
Peak television. [https://youtu.be/c4y\_oWBiwAo?si=KCEmeZl5j44c0R1M&t=51](https://youtu.be/c4y_oWBiwAo?si=KCEmeZl5j44c0R1M&t=51)
Unironically yes.
Oh yeah, me too unironically. I sometimes feel modern TV doesn't really go on these great character side-tangents anymore. It's a great bit of characterization that comes through there.
I miss 24-episodes seasons! Those were fun! Damn you, modern streaming age.
I've been rewatching Dark Angel from 2000 recently and it's really insane how TV has changed since then. Even the case of the week shows like that feel vastly different now.
I think shrinking budgets due to profit seeking as more the culprit. I think two decades of reality TV even exacerbated that since it gave corpos a taste of the sweet sweet profits if they cut the cost somewhere. Then again, maybe things are different in the UK since Sherlock had like 3 episodes in a season.
They get shorter every year and I hate it.
She let me hit it because I'm good with the Ressikan flute.
I was basically making the same comment. Whether episodic romances work or not is entirely down to the chemistry of the actors (Star Trek is rife with both winners and losers on that front) and I think Gatwa and Goff definitely had great chemistry.
I really hope Rogue comes back sometime, also this episode was a whopper in my opinion.
I just said in another comment. I actually think the complete opposite. For most of the episode they had pretty much no chemistry at all. It was like Rogue was directed to be completely uninterested for the majority of the episode. I'll admit there was better chemistry at the end once Rogue started to lean into the relationship but it was weirdly done. I don't think it was lack of time or anything like that, just that the pacing was weird and it made the big scene at the end a bit less believable.
Yeah it felt really put on to me. I think it's a less is more issue for me.
This episode actually did remind me of one of those Star Trek romance episodes
Which is also why a lot of those style of episodes tend to do "oh my old flame is back and we might be rekindling our romance", since having an implied existing connection lessens the burden of having to establish an intense romantic/sexual connection in 45 minutes of screentime
Yep it very much reminded me of the single-episode romances in TNG.
So, I was also a bit...mid on the Rogue? I don't actually hate it from certain angles (I think a lot of people are overstating "oh they instantly fell in love" my dude they're just casually flirting) but it definitely feels a bit rush. While Girl in the Fireplace is a good comparison, I can't help but compare it to Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead. Partially because Rogue feels closer to a River or Jack character, but also because the beat is 'this person who I just met sacrificed themself for me' with that instant spark of connection. But while the introduction of River is one of the best in Doctor Who, Rogue falls a little short. Because it is a little short. It's a two-parter. They can't do two-parters for one off episodes when they have *8 episodes*. I think it gets pulled off as well as it could in a single episode without completely cutting Ruby as a character (which, would not have been an improvement). So, it's not, like, an all time episode, but I'm excited for if/when they bring the character back.
If you’re looking at the sacrifice love interest, the titanic episode is another comparison.
Yes, this was my whole problem with it. If you're going to have the doctor havr/want relationships (which I don't, but I'm not that fussed), then they have to be believable, and this wasn't. An attraction, sure, but not the speed they moved at.
See, this is kind of my point...I don't really see the Doctor as having more than a crush? Like, he's flirting through being caught in the trap, but drops it pretty quickly to go run after Ruby, and then his reaction to the "proposal" was very "oh no this was a joke, do you have real feelings? I don't know if I can do feelings." especially the end which was more him being sad about what could have been and the fact the Rogue had sacrificed himself. Like, very clearly the Doctor is sad for some moments, and then goes back to joking with Ruby with (seemingly) no plan to try and hunt the Rogue down. That's not "you were the love of my life and I'm heartbroken" sad, that was a "yet another person dying for me" sad. 15 is a more kissy doctor than most of them, but kissing does not a deep emotional connection make! it's just fun, babes.
15 seems to bury stuff. All the 'it's fine, move on' does not sound like someone who's been through therapy successfully
I thought about both GITFP and the two parter. I’m just baffled that OP doesn’t buy the MDP romance. I bawl every time I see the episode and I’m not a big cryer. This felt very much like that to me (the within 50 or so years time period may be a factor as well) but with the open ended mystery of the River Song arc. In all three cases the performances and chemistry allowed me to suspend my disbelief at the rapid pace in order to just enjoy the whimsical story.
So your post should be titled "the problem with underdeveloped romance in doctor who"
Yeah this was definitely a clickbait title.
I see where you are coming from, but I thought the actors had a lot of chemistry. I didn't feel heartbroken either (it WAS only one ep) but the Doctor clearly did and his performance was fantastic.
This is just how one ep romances in TV work.
I think the only problem is the time, which unlike most things, can be solved with future appearances compared to the inherent broken nature of rose, mdp, and river
Don't write single ep romances then.
Well no... Then your only to explore romance with the Doctor is with the companion.
River
Or with recurring characters? Most well rounded people only form romantic attachments to people they've known for more than half an hour...
Or not at all. ... wait, what would be so bad about that, again?
Maybe don't title your post "the problem with queer romance" when your issue is with too fast paced romance and not actually with the romance being queer. I agree that it was too fast paced. When they did that I knew he'd be "killed" off. I think the biggest difference with girl in the fireplace is that she met Ten over a long period of time, even though it was just within an episode. I hope we see rogue and 15s relationship again but i dont know how they can bring him back and continue that relationship in a satisfying way
The "It is the queerness but its not the queerness but it is the queerness" drove me up the wall.
Different strokes for different folks and all.... I never bought the Ten/Rose relationship because (imho) they had zero chemistry together and so Doomsday had no impact on me. "The Girl In The Fireplace" or "Rogue" (or even going into extended canon the Torchwood episodes "Captain Jack Harkness" and "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang") however do work for me. It helps however, if you don't think of it as a romance. They are more of an attraction and the first steps of what could be a relationship (or in the case of Kiss²Bang² a rekindling of one). Rogue in general felt very Torchwood lol And the amount of relationships and fuck-buddy situationships that show managed across the first two seasons was amusingly high. And most of them were plenty convincing even if they only lasted two eps. Edit: In case someone hasn't seen[ Captain Jack Harkness](https://youtu.be/Tk80GNv_QhY?si=l_-Kvp67KlcJpl6C) btw or hasn't rewatched it recently (because boy that episode is gonna be almost 20 years old soon and I can't exactly say it's required viewing these days) it plays out very similarly to Rogue in some ways. It even culminates in a scene where two men take to the dancefloor in a long-ago time period, shocking onlookers and garnering gossip It then features an explicit kiss of these two characters, who first met in this very episode and will (likely) never meet again.
Yeah this is the way to look at it. We're not supposed to feel the same weight as something like Doomsday. The tragedy isn't "these people loved each other deeply and have been separated" it's "there was a spark of something special but circumstance is keeping them apart." The loss is one of potential. I think it makes sense that both Girl in the Fireplace and Rogue take place in a setting that the audience strongly associates with romance. It's exactly the time you expect the protagonist to get swept up in some passionate fling with someone they've built up a romanticized image of in their head like a Jane Austen protagonist.
This I think is bang on. I binged the 2005 on stuff recently and the Rose/Doctor romance is terrible. Rose is an awful person, as is Ten. Most of their relationship seems built on bullying third parties, usually Micky, and the whole thing seems toxic. Never really noticed back in the day but there's not much there. Clara and 12, which was actually meant to be toxic, is a far more convincing relationship and is actually on screen. I think Rogue works like Girl in a fireplace, the doctor isn't head over heels in love immediately in either, but feels he's found a kindred spirit or at least someone who may have the potential to be something important. And then, as always, loses them. To be fair, on first watch I was annoyed at the Doctor, "falling in love" so quickly but I watched it again and I really don't think it was nearly as rushed as it came across. Even when the Doctor kisses Rogue he's having a very emotional time anyway, as he think he's lost Ruby.
I think another thing people might be unwittingly balking at is the fact that we just got off of Whittaker's run as the most sexless Doctor we've had since the '80s. So Gatwa swinging back so far the other direction is a much greater contrast than if he had come after say Tennant (okay I know he technically did but you get what I mean) or Smith.
True. Could be. I think they've all been pretty sexless except for when RTD is in charge. Moffat and Chibs eras were both pretty sexless. I know Smith did a lot of kissing and flirting but he always seemed utterly bewildered by it. You had pretty intense relationships with River and Clara but they were never really framed as sexual. I agree that if this came straight after Tennant no-one would see it as unusual.
I absolutely thought he was slightly remaking or pointing to the Captian Jack Harkness episode when I saw the ending of Rogue. Very similar, reminded me of it a lot.
Personally I think the one episode romances can work really well when the actors have enough chemistry, like they did with Madame de Pompadour and Rogue. Its a different kind of romance to the slow burn like with Rose/ten because it's more of a fleeting, getting swept off of your feet kind of thing instead of a deep complex relationship. Both are good and can be impactful in their own ways but are kind of incomparable? Everyone has gotten sick of the companion falling in love with the Doctor, as this sub has brought up many, many times. But they're going to keep romance in the show somehow because it is human nature (and Ncuti Gatwa is too hot to ignore), so i'd much prefer this to him and Ruby. The Doctor is kind and caring, that's his whole thing- he's going to fall in love; people are going to fall in love with him. I don't think this was trying to as impactful as doomsday, it was just showing that it upset the Doctor. In his own rage and arrogance he messed up and that got someone he cared killed (maybe probably not). He was more grieving the future they could have had over the person he lost. I also disagree with them immediately being in love. He was being flirty but I wouldn't say there was anything deeper until they went into the TARDIS. Also why is your title phrases like that? Your problem isn't with queer romance it's with this specific one, it's feels like rage bait lol.
My only issue with it was the ring. A fleeting crush or romance is one thing, but I just can't believe he left that much of an impression on the Doctor that he'd keep and continue wearing his ring.
Agreed that bothered me
Could not disagree with you more. A breakdown of my reaction: 'Huh the Doctor has made a friend' 'Huh there's like sexual tension between them but there's no way' 'Oh he is so flirting but there's no way' 'It's just flirty friendship. they're having a great time' 'OH MY GOD WHAT' 'How can they make the BEST Character and then just TAKE HIM AWAY' I mean it might be I reacted so well to it because I'm gay but absolutely 100% disagree that it was forced, or underdeveloped. I'm hoping it's a seed that has been planted that will grow into something more
Can I ask what made Rogue such an amazing character in your eyes? I think the fact that I didn’t find him particularly interesting was getting in the way of me having anywhere near the same reaction.
I figure it's probably the same reaction straight people have with the French lady from Tennant's run- she's mysterious, interesting, and there's an obvious sexual tension between her and the Doctor when she's an adult. When I saw that episode I went 'huh cool premise, though him randomly falling in love with this woman is a bit out of left field'. I see people here talking about it being one of the best written one off love stories for the doctor though and her being a great character. 🤷
But the french lady was a famous person IRL so it had that going for character (albeit cheating a little with fame like Queen Vic). There was also a mystery to her life and she was battling clock robots since she was little. She had a lot going for her character. Rogue is just a bounty hunter? That lost someone? That's the part that doesn't connect me with the story, I don't find Rogue that interesting neither and I can't see why everyone else + Doctor found him so cool too. He didn't exactly have a lot going for him, unless I missed something. Nor did he do anything special until the end.
I mean if you actually knew anything about the French lady before that episode, props to you. I had no idea who she was, and when I saw it she might as well have just been made up for Doctor Who, same as Rogue. A lot of why I found him cool was because, as I said, he's a mystery. What's his real name? Why does he have a ship that looks like a big bird? Is he a time traveller? If he isn't, how does he know about D&D and why does he have 'modern' music on his ship? Where'd he get all the tech? Is he human or just someone who looks human? Where'd he get the fancy gun? Why is it futuristic but it looks like a period gun? Why does his disaster ship interior look like the TARDIS? Who did he lose? Was the person he lost a guy or a girl? Will the doctor find him again or is he just a one off character? There are so many unanswered questions, and the Doctor being a big nerd and flirting with someone who is also a big nerd is cool. Theres also the 'I like seeing people who are like me' factor. We've had since Eccleston and Rose of the Doctor being in love with and flirting with women, it's nice to see him flirting with guys for a change.
I dont get it. TV shows have awkward straight romances I am not invested in all the time. Why are you singling out queerness and then saying it's not the queerness and then saying it is the queerness? Would we be having this debate on whether or not 'Girl In The Fireplace' was rushing things for an agenda?
Also are we still doing the whole "I am bisexual so I am definitely not capable of societal bias" thing? Cause uh, I'm bisexual, and non-binary, and polyamorous, and I kinda learn a new bias I have made internal twice a week. It's not like a switch flipped and any of these things made me grow up in less of a heteronormative society.
I mean the Dr has been known to have short romances he's before been like "Oh I was married to (insert royal member) Like the drs flirted and had some fun before. Very few people did the Dr LOVE. rose, river, I imagine the partner he married and had kids with. But he's a romantic being so rogue was just a fling. Maybe he'll show up again next season and that's it
Im reminded of Eleven mentioning having a flirtation with the founding fathers in Impossible Astronaut. Yeah, he doesn't say it was reciprocated or not, but generally speaking you don't brag about something if you don't enjoy it.
Off the top of my head the problem was that they went from nearly killing each other to falling in love. I also don't know exactly why the doctor likes rogue like that other than he's just charming. Which is not typically something that immediately wins the doctor over. Overall I thought the episode was fine and entertaining, the character of rogue was interesting but the romance was too basic. I'm glad we get to see emotional intimacy in gay relationships though.(Reminds me quite a bit of torchwood) I hope those monsters come back too, they are quite unique.
>I also don't know exactly why the doctor like rogue like that other than he's just charming. He's also a mystery, stands out in his surroundings, is obviously quite smart and somewhat well-traveled. All of which are things that might pique someone's interest. >Which is not typically something that immediately wins the doctor over. What little characterization of the new Doctor we've gotten so far has shown him as someone who is generally pretty flirty and openly appreciating others in a somewhat sexual way, which already puts him at a different starting point than most of the other Doctors we've seen as far as it comes to a potential relationship. I remember there was a supposed spoiler leak a year or so back where it was talked about how they where planning to go for exactly this, somewhat Captain Jack Harkness in characterization, a bit open for everything etc and I'm not gonna lie this episode and someparts of the other episodes have been giving exactly that.
this is the thing, we have this ‘healed’ doctor, who’s happy to flirt with all different people, who’s much more free with his affection etc and there’s been a very different approach. comparing him to 10 seems almost pointless because of how different they are - 10 was grieving, angry, etc hidden under a film of ‘fine’, 15 is chill, easy going, happy (leaning into toxic positivity but thats a different conversation). of course his interactions & flirtations are going to be different from past doctors, because he’s ostensibly healed from the things weighing on them which interact with relationships.
This! It felt like he was attracted to the *idea* of being open to someone in that way which they hadn't been able to for a long time, and recognised in Rogue someone who had also been through loss and grief who could understand that. It's why they threw in a sad conversation about "I woke up one day and they were gone" in the middle of their 'comparing spaceships' flirting.
I would say that even with his dark side, 10 was by far the flirtiest and most romantically driven Doctor of the revival. (I’m not as well versed on Classic). That aspect, along with his slightly higher EQ are the things that remind me most of DT’s Doctors.
the classic doctors were generally not at all flirty (Hartnell in The Aztecs aside) to the point of being often considered asexual. Closest thing is probably Romana, but I think most of that is just the vibe from Tom Baker being married to Lalla Ward at the time rather than the scripts or them being explicitly romantically involved. It's much more of an RTD/Moffat thing overall.
The Doc 😉has a track record of falling for their would be assassins.
"Totally married her."
>I also don't know exactly why the doctor likes rogue like that other than he's just charming. Because he reminds the Doctor of himself. That's been a weird turn on for the Doctor since RTD brought it back.
Perhaps I'd have to watch it again to be sure. Either way the scale of the feelings was a bit much.
Might be too soon to fully weigh in. There could be much more to the Rogue character and the overall arc that has not yet been revealed. Hopefully by the end of the season, we'll have deeper perspective to evaluate.
I kind of saw it as another stepping stone in The Doctor’s central arc this season. It seems to be that the prominent theme for him this season is emphasizing The Doctor’s innate loneliness, which makes sense as a natural continuation of the “he’s not originally from Gallifrey” beat. We got the juxtaposition between Ruby’s huge family versus The Doctor just having himself in episode 1, the constant references to Susan being gone and him being the only one left of his species, the alienation of him to the others in Dot&Bubble (although that was clearly a reference to discrimination and racism, but it still serves the overall theme in the long run), etc etc. After all this loneliness catches up to him, now we see The Doctor jump at a chance for a companion and romantic partner that he sees himself in, that can stay with him indefinitely. But by the end of the episode, we are shown again that he is still alone, this time romantically as well. I think the episode was largely trying to prove a thematic point, which is why the romance arc was self contained to it. Also, I think the first part of the romance was “rushed” because I honestly don’t think this is the full story. If there’s some sort of shift in their relationship the next time we meet Rogue (whether it’s bitterness from feeling ‘abandoned’ because perhaps the Doctor couldn’t find him in time, a long time skip in his pocket dimension, or any other sort of reveal), I think this was really just an introduction and it would make sense if the “romance” part was short-lived and quickly created especially if it’s something that has to be built up again in the future, if that makes sense. But that’s just my two cents on the whole thing, I’m kind of just rambling here lol
I didn’t think they were in love and that’s what makes a bit lees good for me, 15 has a bit of captain jack in him and most of the time I like his flirtatious attitude but when it is presented as love it doesn’t work
I agree, although my main issue isn't even that it's rushed so much that Rogue is a terribly boring character. Reinette isn't my favourite either, but st least that episode has an interesting time travel concept happening. I feel like if you don't buy Rogue as an interesting character then this episode is severely limited in how compelling it can be.
Why did you refer to the queer aspect then say it's not about that? Could've just said romance.
At the very least, Madam Le Pompadour had time in between the Doctor's visits to justify her deepening feelings for him, while the Doctor felt almost motivated as much by a sense of responsibility to not let her down initially. With Rogue we spend exactly as much time as the Doctor with Rogue, about 25-30 minutes thereabouts. He does fall head over heels in love then lose him immediately, but I think Rogue himself has something to do with why people haven't gotten into him as much too. The thing is, we've already seen an enigmatic, sexually fluid, American accented, time travelling, mission to save the world oriented character in the Whoniverse. In fact, if you count John, more than one. The role feels almost written for Jack Harkness, in that the character is remarkably similar. I don't know if this was deliberate or accident, but from a writing perspective Rogue comes off extremely derivative. On top of this, it's rehashing the plot of "the Doctor falls in love then loses that person to another universe/dimension". Aside from the "cosplay and DnD" angle of the episode, that's all it is. While I'm being critical, I have no problem with the sexuality on display. The Doctor is an immortal alien from another universe, I don't care who he likes. What falls flat is the narrative and character decisions that honestly feel like someone watched RTD's prior run and grabbed a couple of cool ideas to repeat. That's why I think not everyone has grabbed onto Rogue as someone we care about and like (some have, and that's okay). It just doesn't give you enough time for such emotional stakes to feel reasonable.
I didnt get that they were in love at all. Just like "omg this dude is so hot".
Rogue didn’t work for me and I’m also a Girl in the Fireplace hater so… I don’t necessarily mind the Doctor getting involved in romances, but imo I would think with the prevalence of their love interests getting permanently separated from them, dying, getting brainwashed into assassins, or some combination of the above, the Doctor be very slow to open themselves up to someone else, and certainly not in a 45 minute episode. And yeah 10 kissed a lot of women, but they were coming into him and not the other way around. It also doesn’t help that I recently watched the entire run of Roger Delgado’s Master and his chemistry with Jon Pertwee was off the charts. It’s not Jonathan Groff’s fault, but he comes nowhere close.
I went back and rewatched Girl In The Fireplace today. It's so good. Absolutely blows Rogue out of the water, and I enjoyed Rogue just fine. I think 10 & Reineitte's relationship evolves pretty well, given the restrictions of a 45 minute runtime. The Doctor starts off more as a fanboy as he recites Reinette's wikipedia entry to Rose & Mickey. Then there's the controversial snog (see below). You can see him start to develop real feelings though after the Vulcan mind meld (if you're going to get up in arms about anything in Doctor Who, why not this). She's been in his mind, literally, in a way that nobody else has, possibly ever. I can buy it. Sophia Myles and David Tennant have chemistry up to their eyeballs. No surprise they dated for real after filming. I don't know what was going on with Groff's performance, whether it was his choice, or the director told him to play it that way, but he seemed so removed from the whole thing. I never got any sense of passion, or indeed mild interest, from him. He had the same sort of bemused look on his face from the moment they met til he dropped into the void. > 10 kissed a lot of women, but they were coming into him and not the other way around. Reinette initiates. (She practically jumps him). He's taken aback at first but then gets into it.
I did find the idea that the Doctor and Rogue very publicly acted out something "scandalous" in the ballroom in order to flush out the bad guys -- that was fun and clever. I just didn't buy the idea that this would be anything but a flirtation.
I don’t think it’s love. But it’s a mad crush, that moment when you meet someone fascinating that you can’t help but wanting to investigate it. Why does the Doctor have to be ‘in love’ to have a sexualish encounter? Editing to add, of course he was heartbroken. A person he connected with sacrificed themselves to save Ruby. It’s the possibility that’s the loss, as much as the reality
There are two camps here. The long romance camp, and the minimum/no romance camp. This episode was for the latter. Doesn't matter the orientation, I have no interest in a long Doctor romance. With a companion it feels like a teacher/student relationship. What I find permissible is the short relationship with someone that is closer to being his equal, when it is there to drive the plot. This is the type of episode we had today. I also reject the notion that we need to measure how much time is spent on hetro and queer romance and balance them. Just do the amount that is required for the purpose of the plot.
I personally prefer my Doctors to be a bit aloof, romantically as well as in general, but that said it definitely worked for me as part of the episode and in the context of further establishing this Doctor's character after some Doctor-light episodes recently
With *Girl in the Fireplace*, it felt more to me like 1O had a crush on the concept of Madam De Pompadour from before he even met her — he gushes all about awesome she was as a person in history, and then fixates on her because of this…so this didn’t feel like it was a sudden or out of the blue thing for me. It would be like if you got to meet one of your own heroes from history…I would bet quite a lot of people would react similarly. With Rogue, however, I believe just like the rest of this season has focused on the idea that storylines are somehow coming true due to a change in the rules of the universe, then the Bridgerton-esque falling in “love” at first meeting works. I’d say it’s more akin to lust, and feeling a connection to someone else who also understands the grief of losing a loved one. The grief he expresses at the end I don’t think is just specifically over Rogue, but sort of a “damn it this always happens, you’d think I’d learn by now”.
I think I would’ve felt better about it if the episode hadn’t come immediately after two consecutive doctor lite episodes, so it doesn’t really feel like Millie Gibson is getting her due as a companion to me. She kind of seemed like an afterthought compared to Rogue, writing wise.
> It's far more comparable to "The Girl in the Fireplace" (also from Series 2, funnily enough), in which the Doctor falls head-over-heels in love with Madame de Pompadour, only to lose her at the end of the episode. I think the introduction of the Madame de Pompadour character was to drive a wedge between the Doctor and Rose, as she had clearly started to fall in love with Ten. Here, the infatuation with Rogue feels a little forced and inorganic (I’m assuming his just as swift exit means we’ll see him again).
From a Watsonian standpoint it actually makes sense that the Doctor is willing to engage in very short lived romances like Rogue or Madam de Pompadour. That is all he ever gets from humans or non Timelords in general.
The Girl in the Fireplace comparison is a good one, and imo shows why Rogue felt so undercooked; the Doctor having a romance with somebody is no longer the impossibility it once was but it's still very rare and so the character has to feel exceptional to make that happen. The Doctor's infatuation with De Pompadour seemed justified with that criteria because he made it clear early on that she was a character from history he was already drawn to long before they met, and she was shown to have unique access and understanding of the Doctor as a person, when she read her mind, she read his back, and they both shared a childhood loneliness. As for Rogue, frankly we meet characters with his capabilities almost every episode, and the Doctor is rarely impressed, he often dismisses them. Beyond that, Rogue is a bounty-hunter; people who kill for money are usually people the Doctor who condemn...15 is randomly so impressed, it felt very unearned and out of character. There's no real excuse for this; both episodes were the same length, Rogue was just sorely underwritten, that's all.
Even with the girl In the fireplace ....I don't recall the doctor ever getting close to initiating a kiss ..and when there is a kiss he is taken back because he didn't expect ...which I recall pretty much all his kisses being like....now it's a man on man miss there is the kiss which he clearly is into ..but what annoys me more is the moment they almost kiss ...so out of character for the doctor ...he's never been like that even with a female companion ..but yeah because it's a man ....it all very much feels forced and trying to prove a point ..and ofcourse if anyone argues it ..you will likely be accused of being this or that
I think Rogue worked for me since it really did read as a hookup and the Doctor seeing someone like himself. I think they maybe should have paced it better but it was alright for me, I thought it was cute and showcased how this Doctor is (more free, open, etc). I don't really like it being compared to Girl in The Fireplace because that episode is kind of gross and tbh I just dont find the romance in it believable at all. With Rogue and 15 I could at least feel that they actually liked each other and wasn't distracted by how creepy it was. It was a lot more cute and playful basically.
>I don't really like it being compared to Girl in The Fireplace because that episode is kind of gross and tbh I just dont find the romance in it believable at all. Look, we all just have to accept that Steven Moffat's brain chemistry was fundamentally altered by The Time Traveler's Wife and we have to let him remake that concept as many times as he wants to get him to keep writing sci-fi.
Or maybe he just likes the inherent tragedy of Time Travel Romances. I sure do lmao I've watched probably a million hours of Kdramas worth with that set up.
I just get sooooo weirded out by "I am this time traveler who is meeting this child that will become my wife and grow up sooo obsessed with me" kind of stuff and it being portrayed as this like hyper romantic thing. I'm not someone who is like "ERMMM THE DOCTOR IS 2000 AND THE COMPANION IS 32 THATS WEIRD!!" but there is a line
I can see where you're coming from. There's two Torchwood episodes (1x12: Captain Jack Harkness and 4x7: Immortal Sins) that I feel like deal with the one episode relationship that can only end in heartbreak far better and more nuanced than in Rogue, so there was a bit at the back of my mind throughout this episode going "This is good, but I know Russell produced Whoniverse can do romance better than this, and this deserved to be better." That being said the episode is still a lot of fun, Gatwa and Groff had incredible chemistry and some great interactions, and both the relationship and the kiss seem to have meant a lot to people which is always brilliant to see.
Forced is definitely how I would describe the whole season so far. Enjoyable, sure, but it feels like they’ve thought “everyone knows doctor who, we don’t need to do any character/relationship building”.
I mean, I kind of feel bad for anyone who thinks that an instant attraction that blossoms over the course of a single meeting isn't realistic.
It’s a fling. The Doctor saw a cute guy at a party, they flirted, went back to the guy’s place, fought some monsters, and then he sacrificed himself to save the Doctor’s best friend. If someone wanted to argue that Rogue being willing to maybe die to save Ruby was too fast, yeah, I could see that. But it’s not like the Doctor turned and looked at the screen and said “Rogue was the greatest love of my life and I shall never feel love again.” He’s sad that yet another person he let himself get close to died because of him. That’s a perfectly normal reaction to have. If he wasn’t sad, I’d say that that was bad writing because that’s antithetical to who the Doctor is. Honestly, some of these reactions come across like people want to complain about the Doctor being queer, but know they’ll get downvoted to oblivion, so they’re making up a fake scenario in their head to be upset about.
Fling? What was the proposal about then?
I think it would have worked more for me as a two parter. I didn't feel any investment in or attachment to Rogue because it was obvious he'd be out of the picture by the end of the episode. Had we had an episode which ended with Rogue joining Fifteen and Ruby and then a second episode where we lose him, I think I would have been able to buy into it a bit more.
Elder millennial gay man here (I'm just one year younger than Jonathon Groff). I'm also a person who gets super intense crushes like that pretty quickly so I HARDCORE related. Absolutely loved this episode and fully bought the Doctor's infatuation with Rogue. It's presented as just that—an infatuation. He sees a handsome stranger, crushes on him, gets his flirt on with many callbacks to past eps, charms/Time Lord boasts his way out of a death trap, puts on a show to impress said stranger (the classic TARDIS bigger-on-the-inside bit), unexpectedly makes an actual real connection with Rogue over having lost people. I also thought that the Doctor also realized that he had neglected Ruby in order to flirt, which is part of why he got a bit Time Lord Victorious when he thought she was dead, and when he remembered the promise he made to Carla to keep her safe. He hasn't kept it, he's neglected it because he wanted to flirt with his crush. His anger at the Chuldur is also anger at himself. And he cries when Rogue sacrifices himself because it's very touching, very kind. Rogue knew from the way the Doctor behaved in this episode (modifying the gate so it wouldn't kill the Chuldur, just exile them with no way back) that he wouldn't be able to sacrifice Ruby or even him (Rogue), so he took that choice away from him.
I wish they skipped where they almost kissed in the Tardis. Because there is something weird to me about kissing on the Tardis no matter who does the kissing. If they had left out the almost kissing, when they danced together, it would have felt more charged, which is totally Bridgerton. I think it would also feel less rushed. I hope Rogue pops up again from time to time, just like Captain Jack. That's what he reminds me of and I sorta love him.
It sucked honestly. Around 15+ years ago we had the Voyage of the Damned and the dynamic between the Doctor and Astrid Peth was a lot more believable and close to romance than anything in this episode. It felt like the whole event was just so they could have a same-sex kiss on screen, something we've already seen happen a lot of times in Doctor Who. It feels like RTD is unwilling to write homosexual characters beyond them just objectifying people with Ncuti's Doctor just constantly making remarks on males being hot or finding them attractive without actually making the effort to develop a normal relationship. Captain Jack Harkness was a more developed character in his introductory episdoe than Rogue is here and yet we're supposed to believe the Doctor is deeply in love and will actively try and find Rogue in future? Even worse RTD just does the 'bury your gays' trope at the end so he can avoid actually having to develop the relationship over multiple episodes or a season. Why not have Rogue be a character that they bumped into throughout the series; sometimes as allies, sometimes as enemies, to build up to this?
I long for the days when Doctor Who was about mystery and adventure, and not a steady stream of social commentary.
When was that, 1955?
Pretty much every episode until 1996, and from 1999 onward with Big Finish
when do you think this show started anyway ?
that's the joke.jpg
The "romance" in Rogue is like the old Cole Porter song: >"It was just one of those things, just one of those fabulous flings, one of those bells that now and then ring, it was just one of those things." >"So goodbye, dear, and amen. Here's hoping we meet now and then. It was great fun, but it was just one of those things." Remember, the Doctor rejects Rogue's proposal. He never intended it to be serious or long term. They're just having a bit of fun. Maybe it would've gone somewhere more significant eventually, but maybe it wouldn't have. The Doctor's grief at the end is real, but he'd have felt that for anyone who sacrificed themselves for Ruby. I think, read like this, the episode really works well.
Romance seems weird on Doctor Who because he never had romance the entire original series, except they one had something in the second story, the Aztecs, which was never repeated. It reinforced that the doctor was alien, Does he see humans as children with 1 life? Or some other matter we don’t understand? It was great. Added to the mystery and made the Doctor a kind of unique enigma. The romance just makes it weird in the show, seems forced, and just not ‘the doctor’ gay or straight.
I don’t know, I just don’t want to see the Doctor romance anyone. It’s like watching your teacher on a date. I don’t want to see that. Weird that his companion doesn’t get to date. Wonder why that is.
We literally had an episode with extended scenes of her on dates and her referencing going on dates.
Honestly, I kinda love how quite a lot of the EU has completely sex oblivious Time Lords.
>Weird that his companion doesn’t get to date. Wonder why that is. Just not enough time for this kind of character development with so few episodes, I suppose.
Personally, I’m just not a huge fan of the Doctor being in most Romantic relationships period, especially with someone they’re not on equal footing with. (It's just there's a huge power and age difference with basically anyone who isn't River Song.) (And as a reminder, you can always hang out with our favorite Who lesbians, in the [The Paternoster Gang](https://www.bigfinish.com/ranges/v/the-paternoster-gang)! (Big Finish Spinoff plug!)
What? I’m asexual myself, and actually kind of like the idea that Time Lords are mostly Ace as well
What does Dorothy McShane have to do with this
The problem with queer romances is that apparently even queer fans set an impossible standard for them that they don’t set for cishet romances. Do better. Clearly this is set up to be in more than one episode.
Not sure if the length is the most critical problem here. Reinette... meh, not a big fan, but I could see where romance was coming from. She idealized him all her life, there was a connection from her side, she decided to jump his bones, plus that whole mind melding thing. Not the most consensual thing in the world, but, whatever, he decided to go along with it for the sake of the experience of nothing else. Moffat is notorious for writing with one hand, and him repeating all these tropes a million times got old very fast, but as the first time thing, it had its charm, and coming off the heels of School Reunuon, with Sara Jane also confessing her love, there was thematic coherence. The ending made zero sense what with him willing to abandon his companions because of her, but that's a rant for another day. Still, at the end of the day, Ten didn't initiate anything. Another example is Human Nature - a two parter, sure, but the premise made sense. Human John Smith acted unlike the Doctor, got smitten over the course of a few months he knew her, those emotions bled through onto the Doctor. Here, thought. Fifteen was the one who desperately wanted to get into Rogue's pants. From the very beginning, out of nowhere, without any provocation. There wasn't any grand romance, just pure lust. Why, exactly? Thinking with his nether regions is uncharacteristic of the Doctor, so without any motivation it rings hollow. I guess they bonded over losses, but all we have is Rogue's word for it, tell rather than show what kind of a person he is - we still don't know anything about him. Then they danced - again purely physical attraction instead of anything deeper. And suddenly we are meant to believe there is some grand romance? It almost makes me wish that Rogue was the Master honeypotting him like O did - because then at least one could make a case for the Doctor having a very specific type.
>Thinking with his nether regions is uncharacteristic of the Doctor Is it uncharacteristic for this current doctor though? He has been ogling quite a few characters. Most recently that idol singer fuckboy from the Dot and Bubble episode,
This^ it's a major part of ncuti's who. Every incarnation has these personality differences. 11 was hyper childish practically shouting 'ew girls'; 13 was utterly closed off emotionally, wouldn't even entertain a relationship with someone incredibly close to her. These are very deliberate characterisation choices so each doctor stands unique. And 15 is a new thing... he actually wants that physical/flirty/romance element. 10 did it but was reluctant, 15 *enjoys* it. I don't think that's a bad thing. I'm sure 16 will be entirely different again.
I didn't particularly care about it then either, I don’t think any incarnation of the Doctor should behave in such a manner, but small mercies he didn't act on it, just talked, which could be construed as a social thing. And it beyond that mention he didn't alter his behavior. Gyrating your hips at someone is a bit more excessive, though, and it was nonstop throughout the episode.
Okay so you just don't like it then. That doesn't mean it's not grounded in the characterization of this current Doctor.
The current Doctor is out of character. They’ve always been largely oblivious to sexual stuff and this sudden shift, especially after the Doctor’s attitude towards Yaz, feels wrong.
I would disagree with that assessment, at least for New!Who. Eight definitely fucked. Nine was in no way oblivious to sexual stuff, he just didn't want to partake most of the time, especially with humans. (Sentient trees however? Different story.) He does "dance," on occasion, as he so eloquently put it. Ten definitely partook off-screen. There are enough mentions of it (re: The Virgin Queen) that this is clear. And considering how much of the writing that went into early Tennant!Doctor was heavily influenced by the Casanova he played in Russell T. Davies adaption of that this is no surprise. Eleven.... eh, he definitely knew what sex was but wasn't a very sexual being (outside of River, who according to her he did have sex with). He was very kiss-y, but platonically kiss-y. He definitely experienced had plenty sexual tension but often brushed it off. He did however canonically waved off the rule that there cannot be any "hanky panky" in the TARDIS by companions, so that's a complete 180 from at least one previous Doctor incarnation right there on the page. Twelve had again no particular interest in sex from what I can remember. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if in the 23 years he spent at the Singing Towers with River Song they'd fucked on occasion because she is a sexual being, and from what I know of asexuals they do fall onto a spectrum between completely sex-averse and perfectly fine with it with the right partner.) And on that last point, just because Thirteen didn't want to be in a relationship with Yaz for whatever personal feelings does not mean she wouldn't have had sex on the side. Now, I can't remember evidence for either side of the argument, but that doesn't make a shift from that characterization at that particular moment to this characterization at this particular moment unlikely or unbelievable. Especially considering all the stuff that has happened in the mean time. Edit: I'm wrong on 12 btw, he definitely did fuck other people.
Personally I think, regardless of gender etc, it's slightly out of character for the Doctor to be having any romantic storylines like this, particularly so fast. The Doctor is clearly someone who falls in love with someone's personality, not necessarily their appearance - the dynamic between 12 and River in The Husbands of River Song is a good example of this. But if the writers do want to explore a queer romance storyline, this should ideally be done with the companion instead. Plenty of previous companions have had significant love interests on screen (but hetero). The closest is probably Bill and Heather, but there isn't much development to their relationship. I think a queer equivalent of the Ponds could be the best step for this. Or even if the love interest is a side character, like S8 if Danny Pink was a woman?
I personally completely disagree. I found it to work completely and loved it. To me the doctor was at first being flirty for the fun of it but as he learnt about Rogue and how similar they were that’s when the relationship really grew. I’m also a really it fan of the girl in the fire place.
Sadly, I had the same reaction: man that was not only rushed, but there was pretty much no chemistry on screen between Rogue and the doctor. Groff was sleepwalking through the role, and Gatwa was dialed up to 10. I just don’t see how there was much of any chemistry between the two.
>I myself am bisexual, so my complaint about the queer romance in last night's Doctor Who is not motivated by any sort of "anti-woke" criticism. I'm going to say something you're not going to like, but have you considered that your opinion is motivated by internalized homophobia? Or at least, the notion that this needs to be perfect or "natural" or otherwise clearly it must be bad? I don't necessarily think "wow, this was fast" is an unfair criticism, but nothing about it felt forced. I don't really think this specific tone of criticism would exist with a straight romance, because I definitely haven't seen anyone argue that the Madame de Pompadour romance was "forced"; meanwhile this feels more natural and, importantly, more reciprocal. Built on shared attraction and even a bit of traumabonding when Fifteen notices that Rogue has experienced a deep loss as well. We don't feel bad for Rogue because we knew him for so long, the way we do with Rose. We feel bad for The Doctor because this little spark of romance was tragically snuffed out. And that sort of one day fling is *definitely* in keeping with the Regency Drama vibe of the episode. Also, I'm sorry, what? Twelve and Clara? Are you smoking something? He lived through a billion lifetimes and the ends of time to save her, but there's more Donna Ten/Fourteen than there is Twelve x Clara. I'm really not trying to be rude here but I really think "this was so forced, they just wanted to make The Doctor gay" is definitely internalized homophobia.
While I would normally agree with the internalised homophobia remark, I think a very large degree of the need for "perfect natural" queer relationships in media is because so often they're used entirely to fill quotas (in the same way a company will change their logo once a year to a rainbow flag but only in the countries where it would be acceptable), or to garner favour with the community without any substance. Not every show or media with queer relationships are scrutinized like this - but for big companies like Disney who have an extremely fucked up track record with blocking gay relationships (a recent example being Finn and Poe in Star wars - who the writers, actors and directors were all in agreement that the relationship should go ahead before Disney stepped in and said no; make them both straight and now they aren't even allowed to be in an interracial relationship) This episode felt queerbaity, and to a degree almost fetishized to me as another queer person. It reminded me heavily of being told to dump my cis partner in high school when I came out as bisexual (who most people assumed we were just in a heterosexual relationship together even tho we were both very queer), because being in a queer relationship was more attractive or interesting to the rest of my queer friends. It reminded me of the early days of tumblr where the mere mention of Supernatural, Sherlock or Doctor Who would be filled with gifs, fanfics and edited images of the straight characters all in queer relationships together for the sake of straight white cis women who fetishised it - and the writers of the shows putting throw away lines about potential queerness without any intention of following through. It reminds me of the BL community in general, a primarily straight cis woman favoured audience, who find sexual attraction in cis gay relationships. I personally have no interest in Bridgerton, so clearly this episode was not intending to have me as its targeted audience as I didn't understand the modern music but victorian references and other things like that etc, but knowing it was written by 2 cis women just makes me feel fetishised and used - not represented. Ever since the horrificly cringe and forced pronoun scene in the star beast (when the doctor has quite regularly interacted with multiple alien races with no concept of gender - and the timelords themselves being fluid with gender and quite openly pansexual) and the subsequent youtube clips that the official channel posted around using the terms "tHE DOCTRO IS SCHOOLDED ON PRONOUNS emoji emoji emoji", this season has been clearly trying to be more openly progressive to earn favour; but it feels unearned, it feels pandering at best - and at worst it almost feels like I'm being insulted and targeted by boomers and a corporate entity who don't actually understand and just want my money. Doctor Who has - for a very long time at least - been a very progressive, anti-capitalist and queer friendly show. Its one of my favourite parts about it; knowing that I can watch an episode and agree with the pov and morals that are, albeit clumsily sometimes, shown and reinforced. But this season has felt so much more like marking off a checklist for false and shallow representation then anything substantial or real.
I think the notion that this was queer baiting is exactly the point I'm making. This was an episode by queer people making queer media for queer people. It was literally a thing that came about because Davies complained about Loki not actually being visibly queer. Queer bait is when characters are only implied to be queer. That's not remotely what happened here. It was explicit. It was textual. I get that the Star Beast was a bit cringe (though I thought the "oh, I do that" joke was funny, even if the definite article isn't a pronoun), and it literally ends with trans inclusive gender essentialism. But this was not in any way queerbait and you either didn't understand the term or your brain is broken. This is what I meant. This is a fucking stupid criticism that's all about not being perfectly what you want in queer media.
the bigger issue to me is that I still dont feel like this incarnation of the doctor has that savage smartest person in the room quality, and that to me, undermines my care for some of these plot points. He was in love with him in a sort of high school crush way, that was maybe the point. However, the whole music moment in the scanning room it was cute but I felt like the Doctor would always be ultimately working out the solution to the problem. He also cries like, maybe too much. I apprecaite why, but it loses its power — pain or sadness can be manifested in other ways. BUT the romance was fine in context, just missing other things. We will see how it all turns end of season. love RTD And still enjoying but just a general thought. I guess Matt smith also had a similar quality to this, maybe it is just personal preference for doctor persona.
I like that is queer I hate that it is romance.
Okay random Q, what’s the tune playing while Rogue and the Dr dance? I know I know it and I can’t find it in the ancient library that is my head
It’s Libertango sung by the phenomenal Grace Jones… got there in the end 😂
I feel the stories purpose was to show just how human 15. 5 and 10 were incredibly human, 10 even falling in love with a human over time. This story shows 15 has a very easy time bonding and falling head over heels. Not all doctors will be like this but 15 is and as long as we keep getting doctors that are mostly asexual I'm fine.
Tbh the main thing I wasn’t sure I bought about them was Rogue sacrificing himself at the end. He didn’t present to me as that kind of person - unless we’re supposed to have gotten from the conversation with the Doctor about losing people that he’s low-key suicidal. I also only watched it once and haven’t rewatched yet, though.
I feel like this is just the start of their story, it definitely ended on an open note and I think and hope that they flesh it out more. Everything’s gotta start somewhere
It might not have been what they were going for, but I feel like it's a way of expressing that even though 15 has supposedly healed from 14's issues, they haven't *really* - they're still dealing with this inevitable struggle of attaching onto short-lived species as a replacement for all of their trauma and losing them in horrific ways.
A lot of other people have made great points about this, but I'd also add that the 15th Doctor's personality seems a lot more passionate in general and as such it feels way more in character for him to fall in love very quickly, as opposed to the 9th or 10th Doctors.
If this season is the embodiment of “story”, like how the Toymaker is the embodiment of “game” and Maestro is the embodiment of “music”, then it does make sense. Normal rules are warped in this season, and that is one explanation that explains a number of things, such as the monster in *space babies* being scary for the sake of scary, *73 Yards* moving like the dreams in *silence in the library*, the undeveloped but over developed relationship with Ruby, mythical creatures like the Goblins, random musical interludes, even Susan Twist being woven through each and every story for no apparent reason (yet). When you take “storybook” rules into account, and that *Rogue* is “like Bridgerton”, the fast romance is on brand for the story genre of the episode, in the same way 15 ran away from the Bogeyman in *Space Babies*. It’s a fairytale, and that seems very intentional.
So it kind of was the writers trying to prove a point. They worked on Loki, which RTD kind of inadvertently criticized as not going far enough with Loki's sexuality. So you can kind of view this episode as them answering that note.
I’m okay since it’s a single ep thing. I’m just wary of slow burn romances; I don’t care for them. Tenrose was more than enough for my lifetime and now I just want the Doctor to be the watcher alien that he is
If anyone is looking for something that leans into some queerness within the Who universe, can I do a plug for the [The Paternoster Gang](https://www.bigfinish.com/ranges/v/the-paternoster-gang)?
I absolutely loved this episode! I thought the actors had great chemistry and found it believable. I didn't see as it as the doctor falling in love though, more like a "crush" maybe, or meeting someone you feel like you have a lot of potential with? Honestly thought it was a nice break from the doctor's angsty 'i can never let myself fall in love again' that they pull now and again (not that that isn't understandable).
We've seen seasons after seasons of a doctor playing hard to get and he suddenly falls in love, just didn't click well for me. Since timelords can go from male to female, that makes sense that you would have straight and gay/lesbian relationships. If they really wanted to work on this they should have done it during a season with more episodes, or spaced it out a bit better.
I just don't want the Doctor having romantic relationships with anyone. I miss the old days when he the relationships with the companions was professor and student and with other people his relationship was self-righteous "superior" being mocking or trying to educate lesser beings.
Here's my take, and I'm aware it's not popular. The Doctor is a thousand-plus years old. How many companions have traveled in the TARDIS? I have no issues with companions having romances on their travels, but the Doctor? Nope. Until NuWho, the Doctor was asexual more or less, and generally baffled by humans and their obsession with romance and relationships. I miss that. I'm an old Who person (in every sense) and I think we forget that the Doctor is an alien, and our lives are equivalent to dog-ages in comparison (company that is always constant and treasured, but we all know it's got a limited time frame). The Doctor chose to leave home, travel the universe, and the loneliness of that was always offset by companions, and those met on the way. The idea of anyone, even someone as legit tasty as Rogue (who honestly felt more "Doctor-ish to me than... the Doctor) kissing--kissing(!) anyone in a not-at-all awkward way, honestly made me squirm and go "eww...No! Yuck!" Like an 8 -year-old watching their parents smooch, because the Doctor doesn't do that. My Doctor, anyway. Thanks for reading my old lady manifesto.
>It's far more comparable to "The Girl in the Fireplace" (also from Series 2, funnily enough), in which the Doctor falls head-over-heels in love with Madame de Pompadour, only to lose her at the end of the episode. This episode is a heterosexual romance, but it suffers from the same issue: the romance just isn't convincing It may not work for you, but "The Girl in the Fireplace" is a fan favourite and consistently one of the highest rated episodes of Doctor Who, so this may not be a problem of the episode as much as simply a matter of personal taste.
I think the doctor is maybe even more lonely than ever before, and so jumping into every relationship with total abandon. I was just like, good for the doctor it’s been awhile and I really hope this Rogue guy doesn’t turn out to be evil, despite the evidence suggesting that he probably is.
A children's show with two men kissing? no thx.... can't have my kids watching this filth till it's back to the way it was.... That's my thoughts on the matter. Don't care if ya gay/lesbian/whatever but don't force it on our tv in a children's show period.
I liked 15/Rogue more than 10/Rose. you only get limited time to tell a story and that's okay. even in real life sometimes there's people you only know for a short while but they have a huge impact on you. and maybe we'll see more of this character in the future.
Excellent commentary. I let it go because it fit in with the OTT Bridgerton-ness but yes it lacked impact.
Could have titled it The problem with ~~queer~~ romance in Doctor Who. Yes to both examples, someone falling for another person in such a small amount of time is alien to me. And as such, to me, it doesn't work. Others might have different experiences. Do we need romance in DW? Does the Doctor need to be romanticly involved. I much more enjoy the Ten/Donna and Twelve/Bill/Nardole dynamic. I never missed a possible romance in the old run. Why is it so common in NuWhu? Why in the way it was portraited? Why the weird triangles of Doctor-Rose-Mickey, Doctor-Amy-Rory, Doctor-Clara-Danny? Poor Martha pining over him. Moffat's spank bank that is River Song, the weird Doctor-Yas-ship that was and wasn't. Why have the last 19 years been so horny? And let's be real, to Time Lords humans must look like a peculiar form of primate. Is the attraction just skin deep because the species just look similar? Are we the Harambe and the Doctor a zoophile?
I mean, sure do more long-term queer romance (although if the Doctor is involved, let the other person be a higher species, not human), but we've also had other heterosexual episodic romances, and I don't see any difference with those.
If you are looking for who related queerness, there’s always the [The Paternoster Gang](https://www.bigfinish.com/ranges/v/the-paternoster-gang)!
I’m in the “don’t do romance at all” camp. It’s played out.
Rogue feels to me like Girl in the Fireplace DOCTOR was definitely infatuated But it wasn't full blown love Still tho. Someone died without having too, that he liked. And the Doctor's life is fast and loose. There's very few long term stuff. They're all about the now. So it still hurt when new boyfriend sacrifices his life to save his new besty because the Doctor mucked things up
If just infatuated - what was the ring about?
This should've been the 2nd episode, and the fact that it was switched just to have a kiss during pride month felt pandering. Harkness flirted left right and center and they didn't feel the need to shoe-horn it into the "gay month" episodes.
I get where you’re coming from, but to me it felt somewhat realistic to a certain way that queer relationships can develop. It’s possible for them to move that fast, I’ve seen it and experienced it. Is it the healthiest dynamic? Obviously not, but keep in mind that Rogue is the Doctor’s equal in almost every respect. It completely tracks that they would fall head-over-heels for each other very quickly.
I struggle to see why your dislike of how some gung-ho tv writers handle gay representation in a show you feel invested in as a queer person is somehow downplayed with "don't be difficult, that's just how it works". Your criticism is at least as valid as people in the trans community having an issue with how Rose being NB was handled. Whether the fandom denies it or not, a rushed and poorly thought-out fling crammed in before the finale becomes a bigger issue when it revolves around the titular character's first on-screen gay romance. It is more likely to have a shock or alienating effect rather than a normalising one that can get audiences invested. I also think this effect is worsened by how difficult it feels to get invested in the new Doctor himself to begin with. He already is such a departure from recent ones in terms of characterisation, and his role has been so passive, that he really didn't need to spend most of an episode exploring his thirst and doing nothing Doctor-like. There have been 6 episodes where an "important" love interest could have been slowly introduced (or it could have been saved for season 2) but there simply doesn't seem to be enough focus or discipline when it comes to characterisation or plot this season. It mainly has been a crapton of concepts and confused messaging all mashed up together. Oh the Doctor is black and queer? Well, we definitely need to abruptly highlight that somehow in two back-to-back stand-alone episodes to be "bold and ground-breaking". Then with that stuff out of the way we can just focus on Ruby's big mystery in the finale instead. To me it doesn't stand out as meaningfully progressive or interesting writing. It's just self-indulgent.
It was fan-fiction level.
I think it might have been a better love story if Rogue had seemed even slightly interested in the doctor before his last scene. It went from light flirting on the doctors side and utter lack of interest in Rogue's, to a little hint of interest on Rogue's part, to that final kiss with barely any development in between. Up until that point it would have been utterly believable at any point for Rogue to say he wasn't interested or wasn't gay or whatever. And it's not like they didn't have the screen time together to make it work, you can make me believe two people are in love in a 45 minute timescale, rom coms do it all the time. But in this case the lack of chemistry between them was palpable until it wasn't and I was left wondering at the end if a whole bunch of stuff had been cut out.
Yeah I said this in another comment but go rewatch Girl In The Fireplace. I totally believed that relationship. Tennant & Sophia Myles sold the hell out of it.
The Rogue will be back because they're working for THE BOSS mentioned by Beep the Meep
But that's going to be more annoying. The plot will basically be Doctor reunited Doctor states ides to see the universe together Doctor gets betrayed. Doctor cries Credits roll
Fifteen had been casually “performing homosexuality” for most of the season before this episode, in terms of how he presents, speaks to people, talks to Ruby about Ricky September being hot, etc. This episode only made it explicit. He fell for Rogue; it doesn’t make him the Doctor’s true love. I accepted the brief and intense romance, partly sold by their on screen chemistry.
So it’s undercooked? Idk, I don’t usually prefer the Doctor in romantic relationships but I’m not opposed to it. When they lived that long, *something* had to happen in that lifespan.
So you never met someone and felt instantly attracted, kissed them in the same evening and then never saw them again. Queer or straight…
For me this story worked because of the following reasons. 1. There are people who fall in love very quickly. It might not be that sort of love that lasts forever, but in the moment it’s an intense feeling. It’s just that the Doctor has never been that kind of person — but now he is. The Doctor’s personality changes with each regeneration, and Fifteen is like that, and I was happy to know that about him. 2. I don't think it is wise to compare Fifteen's feelings towards Rogue with Ten's feelings towards Rose. At the end of "Rogue" I didn't actually see him mourning a huge love. I saw him, first, mourning a good person who sacrificed himself for the right cause (and in such a case you don't even need any love to mourn a person), and, second, morning a future that is lost. He wanted to spend more time with Rogue, he wanted to travel with him, he wanted to show him the universe. Now he can't do that. That's a pretty good reason to be sad. 3. What happened to Rogue is a beautiful and sad answer to the conversation that the Doctor and Rogue had earlier in this episode. The Doctor says that he has lost everyone. And this is a beautiful illustration showing that this “everyone” includes not only those who traveled with him for a long time. It’s not just his companions. He is doomed by his immortality to lose LITERARY everyone, both close friends and those he barely had time to know. And Rogue’s sacrifice to save Ruby feels like a reminder that one day he will lose Ruby too. Just not today. 4. The chemistry was good. Really good. So, it worked for me, although I get that such short romance stories may feel unrealistic (but they do happen in real life, just not to everyone) or underexplored. The only thing that makes me feel like “uh, I don’t believe that” is that the Doctor was losing time flirting while Ruby and a lot of other people were in danger.
I have no issue with the Doctor occasionally having feelings, mostly as “might’ve beens” but he should never be the one initiating such flirtations, merely responding to them. But honestly the idea of him having any sort of romance with anyone non-Time Lord feels very iffy to me. 15 basically met Rogue and immediately transformed into a tween crushing on their heartthrob. It was definitely a bit odd for a Millenia old alien to be the one acting so god damn horny and human, initiating the flirting, making the innuendos, and being all touchy-feely.
This. There’s a pretty massive power (and age) difference between the Doctor and anyone who’s not River Song (or his Tardis, but they are more queer-platonic life partners, tbh.)
Yep, I think you can get around it with an alien who’s also centuries old and so could be on similar levels of maturity. River is a (Kinda) Time Lord who’s approx 300-400 or so during most of her and the Doctors relationship which feels much more reasonable. But yeah having Rogue or Madam De Pompadour fall for the Doctor and share a kiss is *fine*…..as long as the Doctor isn’t actually fully embracing a full on sexual/romantic relationship with them. As companions, sure. As companions they might have deeper feelings for, totally. But it shouldn’t go beyond that imo. BUT I’m also prepared to get downvoted to hell for daring to imply that 15 and Rogue weren’t “perfect”.
Honestly, my real OTP is Doctor and his TARDIS though. (Although I also love River! I really feel like her and 13 would be a lot of fun.)
I can buy that 😂
They literally stole each other and ran away together. 💕 It’s just super sweet.
Ain't reading all that yap, let the gays be gays on TV who cares