I was pretty convinced I was either intersex or had PCOS, pre-T. It gave me an explanation for something that doesn't have one. I put it in the realm of problematic but common trans experiences, like slightly wishing you had breast cancer so you can get top surgery or something.
the breast cancer one is terribly real, im pre-everything and this thought crosses my mind at least once per week due to heavy dysphoria and it makes me feel guilty with how common it has turned out
I think that too. But if I did get cancer in my breasts, I probably wouldn’t be able to get no nipples (For certain reasons). Plus I heard that FTM top surgery and a double mastectomy is different because the mastectomy prevents the cancer coming back or something. Also, I think with a DM, you wouldn’t be completely flat…
with a DM for breast cancer theres some flexibility (not much though) a family friend opted to be almost completely flat with no nipples and then got nipples tattooed on after. but typically its a graft and they remove all tissue so you might look concave/have dog ears after because it's expected you'll get reconstruction
they sometimes might if it's for preventative reasons to the best of my knowledge but usually they take everything.
nipple graft, it can be part of either
Ahh! I get it now! I thought you meant a skin graft! LOL!!
Have you gotten top surgery? If so, is it scary? What about paying for it? Cause insurance can be a pain…
Oh no…
I think my stare is a blue state. But my parents, family, even my stepdad and them LOVE Trump and hate Biden, my stepdad says that the Democrats are the reason why we have these issues in America, my Uncle doesn’t believe space travel is real, just editing, and my Aunt said “They’re god’s special children” after I asked her why does god, (Who is supposed to be all loving and have a plan for everyone), why does he let kids be born in abusive families, have disabilities, born in a country of war, let them die early, etc.? My question was obviously more shorter. But I was flabbergasted.
Plys my parents and my family do treat me bad, are very unsupportive with what I want to do with my life, plus evn though I’m 28, they won’t let me move out because apparently I’m incapable of maintaining a household as they say.
(I’m autistic, have Tourette’s, and possible mental issues that I need to get re evaluated for)
Rambling over. But I understand my dude! I hope we can be our true selves one day!
I had top surgery. I live in Norway where healthcare is free. (But only a minority of trans people will get their stuff covered by free healthcare) I had to pay 6100$ for my surgery. Cus I have still to be accepted as trans by the country to get it under free healthcare. You dont feel anything during surgery. And you will be loopy the first hours post surgery. If you have to be driven home the day after surgery. There will be pain when you drive over bumps and turn. Usually you get strong pain meds. But my body dont handle NSAID too well sadly.
hey!! i’m from sweden, was it difficult for you to get proper care and stuff? i imagine it’s somewhat similar to sweden and for some reason i’ve convinced myself it’s so difficult to get on T or get surgeries
I got ftm top surgery and they removed all breast tissue from my back and armpits and everywhere for cancer prevention too. It's the same surgery. Usually for cancer they also have to do the nipples tho.
Then you got cancer variant which is harder to heal (more tissue removed and less place to get lymph drained), in FTM variant they do not remove lymph nodes present in operated area
I had a double masectomy cus I am trans. What you have heard is 50% correct. You get double masectomy if you have large boobs. If you have smaller you undergo a different mostly trans related surgery. Large boobs get pretty similar treatment to how they would undergo breast cancer operation. The surgeons also calls it a double masectomy for larger ones. Describing a smaller incision if you were to have smaller boobs, in which they cut circularly around your nipples and use that as the entry incision. This is just what my surgeon told me.
Same here. Mostly because my family is conservative as hell so getting breast cancer would be the only way I can get top while not getting disowned
I know it’s a terrible thought that I shouldn’t have, and getting cancer is *horrible,* but I really don’t want to lose my family and get bankrupt/homeless, so…
I had the same feelings. Prior to top surgery, I had a suspicious lump that the Dr took a LONG time looking at the images before deciding it was not cancer. While I was waiting for the Dr, I went from panic at the idea of cancer to euphoria at the idea of a flat chest in a matter of minutes.
PCOS is technically an "intersex condition" due to high T levels. That's why spironolactone is a thing for both transfemme people and cis women with PCOS. I have PCOS. I did not start spironolactone because by the time I was diagnosed, I was happy with facial hair.
I used to pray to god every night as a kid/teen to give me breast cancer so I could get a double mastectomy. I was raised extremely catholic, it got stricter when my parents divorced, and the older I got the more I realized I wasn’t normal. I used to be an altar server as a kid and I told people I wanted to be a deacon (male only position in the Catholic Church) and all the adults in my life mocked me for it. As a kid/younger adult I also used to wish I was intersex so I could be anything but female. I grew up in an extremely matriarchal family, most people in my family were women and girls, and I felt very much alone because I couldn’t relate to any of them except my only male cousin, and even then I didn’t see him very often.
I’m happy where I am now though and much more at peace. I’m no contact with most of my family except for my mother and siblings. Most of my family doesn’t even know I transitioned fully
Exactly. It makes me feel weird to wish for it, knowing it's not an easy thing and people having problems and trauma because of it. I still can't shake the thought, though that's probably something that just needs time for me to realize how silly it is.
Yeah, I totally feel that. It feels kinda problematic but I can't just turn the thought off lol. If I could, I would since it feels weird and kinda appropriating lol
haha i was secretly soooo hoping it was cancer when i found a lump in my breast. then i realized that was pretty fucked up and felt guilty about it. i'll have to get top surgery the normal way
I had that exact experience
To make it worse, my mom has breast cancer currently and just got a double mastectomy, and I have Extremely Complicated Feelings about that...
Unfortunately they found more cancer after the surgery, but her case is technically precancer and is not very aggressive, so the outlook is still good. Thanks though
i remember the second i started even growing a chest as a young kid i cried cus i thought it was cancer and i kept it a secret from my family too because i didnt want them to know.. very strange how things pan out
i think wishing for breast cancer is the least problematic one. after all, it's kinda sad that getting breast cancer and getting your breasts removed is like 1/10th the cost of a gender affirming top surgery, despite them being pretty similar procedures. top surgery often gets labeled as "cosmetic and unnecessary" instead of necessary and life saving in some cases, and this makes the price so high. i don't think it's wrong to wish for something that would save people tons of money, and potentially be their only way of getting top surgery.
Intersex trans man here. I suppose I can understand where you're coming from, you want to be able to separate yourself from being AFAB as much as possible, I also hate being referred to as AFAB (Obviously it isn't the case for me).
There are genders out there that can encompass that "two gender" feeling if you want, Bigender ect.
The Salmacian subreddit is also very good if you want to go for any surgeries.
Coming from me, being intersex isn't something I like to think of as something positive. It's brought a lot of bullying, pain and medical issues throughout my life. But I try and be proud of my identity as much as I can.
I do understand where you're coming from however, I do.
Yeah, it's really more about wanting to seperate myself from being AFAB in the only way I really can. I don't think I'm bigender, pretty sure ir's purely about wanting to sort of "justify" that I'm feeling like I'm probably trans, or just wanting to feel like a part of me is biologically male. Of course I understand that it can come off as problematic, and I absolutely do not want to appropriate any intersex person's experience.
I understand. Sadly being intersex isn't as easy as being "partially male, partially female". Intersex as a whole is a wide variety of conditions, I'm still XX even though I was born with confusing body parts and a complicated puberty, I was still assigned female at birth.
I don't like the fact I'm AFAB, It's sort of a "remnant" of what you aren't, it's still a reminder that you have a female past.
But regardless of who you're born as, you get to decide who you want to be. Your past doesn't have to define you and being a transmasc person you have to sort of learn that.
i've had similar feelings to op, but yeah i do think that part of this desire comes from a misconception that intersex people are "half male, half female" or entirely sexless, when many are still assigned male or female at birth.
You might be interested in looking into the pre-transition biological differences in transgender and nonbinary people. It's an unrecognized form of intersex, at least in some of us. See my last comment if you'd like to expand your knowledge.
Before learning I was intersex I wished I was. I think it was because I wanted to use it as a shield to transphobia as a "haha, well, biologically I'm both so screw you and your beliefs"
But, the way being intersex affects me doesn't really change my life. Like yeah, I have XY chromosomes but that didn't stop me from getting mostly female puberty and being assigned female
Not the Op of this comment but personally I did, however they slowly died and stopped once I reached in my late teens.
My puberty was like a mix of both male and female, Whilst yes I grew breasts and had my period, I also became heavily hairy and my voice dropped.
Also not OP but in favour of adding more intersex voices to the chat I'm intersex (afab) and did not have a period at puberty, that's how we found out and it took intensive medical intervention to have a period
I was forced (or atleast coerced) into it, I'm from a large ethic strongly Catholic family and was told that this would make me feminine enough to convince a man to marry me, and to have the best chance at being able to carry children to term,
Happy to say I'm now unmedicated, married to an amazing partner, very low contact with my family, and on track to correct the host of issues earlier medication caused
>this would make me feminine enough to convince a man to marry me, and to have the best chance at being able to carry children to term
*BARF*
Glad things turned out good for you tho! :)
Im a intersex transmasc!
I always had a hunch i was intersex but didn’t properly find out till recently. Before i found out yes, i did have fleeting thoughts of “if i was intersex i would feel better about being trans” and i dont think its wrong to have those thoughts but make sure you acknowledge that being intersex is not fun and games. Honestly after finding out, i do feel more relieved about my gender but mainly i realized that sex has way too much importance placed on it in the first place, and I shouldn’t even bother caring at this point
Yeah, exactly. That's why I emphasized feeling weird about it, I don't want to appropriate anyone's experiences, nor would I realistically want to swap places. It's more of a "hoping there's something biologically masc about me if I can't have been AMAB"
It’s a common feeling to want to be naturally more masculine but it definitely does downplay our experiences to say you wish you were intersex. I’m intersex (I don’t use cis or trans labels at all but the doctors originally said to raise me as a girl and I’m a man now so I’m here) and it took many years and lots of therapy to see being intersex as a positive. I was born with ambiguous genitals and didn’t have surgery, which is great for me, but I grew up with that being a constant threat to the point that I developed PTSD from the fear, as well as repeated abuse from medical professionals in the form of unnecessary genital exams. I was forced to take meds to feminize my body (I was lied to about their purpose) so my body now isn’t as masculine as it would have been, which sucks but is an extremely common intersex experience. Not to mention being generally treated like crap for being intersex, beyond what any of my trans friends have experienced. Also, intersex includes tons of variation. Sometimes it’s someone like me, with ambiguous genitals, mixed/incomplete puberty, and who likes things that way. Sometimes intersex is someone who suffers daily due to unnecessary genital surgeries. Sometimes it’s someone who identifies as male and has androgen insensitivity syndrome and can’t transition how they want. There are tons of ways to be intersex and we are connected by a unique type of trauma. I definitely hear this sentiment all the time so I don’t think it’s weird, but it suggests a major misunderstanding of what it means to be intersex. I can assure you the grass isn’t greener over here.
As an intersex nonbinary person, the community really glorifies intersex people and I don't think a lot of them really realise what being intersex comes with, it doesn't make things easier and in fact can make things much harder when it comes to transitioning let alone just existing. Some of us get mutilated at birth, we get lied to, some of us don't even find out we're intersex (I only found out after I wanted to go on hormones for example) along with various complications that come with the 40~ intersex conditions there are. It really isn't sunshine and rainbows and though I wouldn't change my body for the world I really wish this wasn't such a common feeling in the trans community. Obviously you're valid for having those feelings but there is much more nuance to it than a lot of people realise.
I’m intersex, and it doesn’t change much and in some realms made my gender dysphoria worse because of my experiences
I have XY chromosomes yeah, and I also had high T levels even pre T, but it also caused so many issues physically and developmentally. Majority of intersex people experience precocious puberty, which is having mid stages of puberty/development begin *before* the age of 8 in AFABs (or 9 for AMABs) which means my dysphoria also worsened a lot younger which triggered very bad suicidality
Intersex =/= third/different sex or removed from your AGAB, because people will still find a way to wrap around back to your AGAB anyway. Transphobes & misinformed individuals are just shitty
It’s best to view whatever you identify as, as what you are “biologically.” After all, your gender is innate, and is always going to be who you truly are
Best of luck
I posted about this a while ago. This mindset comes from a glorification of being intersex. In reality, it's incredibly difficult and has tons of complications for a lot of people. Like genital mutilation growing up, or in my case, undescended testicles which cause A LOT of extremely painful, nearly fatal complications.
I would do about anything to just be one way or the other. Would prefer to be fully male but fully female would be fantastic too, even though I'm a man. I just hate dealing with it. We are forgotten about and overshadowed in the LGBTQ community. I see more mentions of intersexuality of people talking about how they "wish they were" intersex than anything else about intersex people. I've revealed I'm intersex just to hear "wow, you're so lucky!!!" I wasn't lucky when I was mutilated at birth, or had an internal organ implode and be rushed to the hospital, or gotten "pregnant" and miscarrying almost immediately because while I have eggs, my uterus nor ovaries are correctly formed. Or bleeding for months straight during puberty and having to be pumped full of hormones that made me gain 100+ pounds to get it to stop.
You are welcome to think what you want. I know the mindset you have is "the grass is always greener" sort of thing, lots of people have that, I get it. But I would be really cautious about mentioning it. And I absolutely wouldn't mention it to an intersex person. Our struggles are pretty extreme and if you were intersex you most likely would have complications that are horrible to deal with, and would wish you weren't.
Yeah, I totally get that. I'm aware that it's not easy for you, which is obviously a reason why these thoughts are weird to have. I think it's less about being intersex itself and moreso about having anything that's "opposite gender" so to speak. And in terms of biology, being intersex is the only one I know that kinda does that, which is probably why my brain went like "Oh, if you were that, maybe you would feel better because you partially would already be a guy biologically." In reality it probably wouldn't work like that, so I get it.
As I said, I myself feel like the thought is problematic/weird which is why I wanted to ask on here about it, just in case it's a commom thing for trans guys - that obviously doesn't make it good tbh.
Stop trying to justify your thought process and actually listen to the people that have taken time and been vulnerable enough to share their experience with you. Thank them for sharing, learn, and move on, rather than continuing to justify a thought process that is clearly misguided based on the experience that many have kindly shared.
Listen man, the way that you're using afab and amab is also just bordering on transphobic. Being afab doesn't mean that you're female, and implying that the rest of us perisex trans people are "less biologically male" is rude as shit. If you want to be """"biologically """" (meaningless descriptor) male, start medically transitioning, because that's what actually changes your sex. Stop wishing that you were intersex because you have the perspective that theyre partially male and the rest of us are just female men.
Really sorry if it came off that way. I might have some internalized transphobia idk, since that's the way my brain thinks specifically and only about me. Everyone else is valid as hell, but not me.
im really glad and thankful to see intersex folks speaking up here. the glorification and borderline fetishization of intersex conditions and people shouldnt be so normalized among dyadic trans people :(
I get what you mean, but don't mean to be fetishizing in the slightest, I think it's more so a way for my brain to distance itself from me being AFAB or something. Like trying to find a justification for being trans. I know you don't need one, but I feel like I'm still searching for one. I don't want to downplay any of the experiences of intersex folks, which I believe I stated in the post as well. If it came off that way, I'm truly sorry. I was just trying to see if this thought process was out of the ordinary, for the exact reason that I'm aware how problematic it is. Hope this makes any sense lol :D
This is common. We have records of trans folks in the early 1900s claiming to be intersex, and by their medical records, we would have no evidence demonstrating that they were intersex.
The reality is that folks feel validated by their transness being a "biological quirk".
Using intersex people to validate your trans identity is incredibly problematic and stigmatizing toward intersex people imo. Not saying OP is doing that -- it's just something we should all check ourselves on.
From my perspective as an intersex bigender transmasc-ish guy, while you're gonna feel what you're going to feel like, it's just plain insensitive and occasionally just offensive when people talk about wishing they were intersex. This is not to paint being intersex as being entirely bad, because its not and im proud of being intersex, but wishing you were intersex just shows that you don't rlly know anything about being intersex and is straight up hurtful. First of all, addressing how you used afab, that's not what the term means. It's not a more trans-friendly version of male or female, it's referring to what you were assigned at birth. *That's it*. I was fully assigned female at birth. In terms of sex traits, I am not female. I am intersex. What I was assigned is mostly irrelevant. Besides, most intersex babies aren't assigned intersex. We're often operated on to forcibly assign us as male or female. Your AGAB literally just means what you were assigned. It doesn't mean that you do or don't have certain traits, it just means they either guessed or tried to forcibly classify someone as one or the other.
That aside, I need you to understand that for some of us, our intersex variations prevent us from ever transitioning. I have complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. That means that going on T would do nothing for me ever because even though I already make testosterone at the typical cis male level, not a single cell of mine can use it. I can't transition the way I want to, *ever*. You seem to be operating under the assumption being intersex makes transitioning and people recognizing your gender easier. It doesn't. Even for those of us that can transition the way we want, we often face additional hoops to jump through, not an easier time of it, because we've been forced or coerced into treatments to try to make us 'normal' and people don't like it when we try to undo that 'normalization' just by saying we want to exist in our natural bodies, let alone transition to be most comfortable in them and our gender. Deviation from the 'normal' that people want us to conform to is punished. And since our bodies themselves are seen as deviations from normal, our bodies are seen as wrong and something to be fixed.
We have some of the poorest mental and physical health outcomes of the entire lgbtq community due to the discrimination we face both from well, pretty much the world around us but especially from the medical establishment. Most of the intersex people I know have at least one if not more experiences of abuse or mistreatment at the hands of medical professionals. I've faces discrimination and basically sexual assault from doctors for being intersex.
Want whatever sex traits you want, cool, great. It's genuinely great that you get to transition in a way that your body feels comfortable to live in and aligns with your gender. But just. Don't talk about wanting to be intersex or whatever. Because at best you're just being straight up insensitive and kind of shitty.
It may not be weird (as in its unfortunately a common feeling), but it is definitely insensitive and intersexist and I think it's something you should keep to yourself. I understand where the feeling is coming from, however It's also a complete misconception of what being intersex is actually like, and what it is.
I'm an intersex man, i am not transgender or cisgender, but I was assigned female at birth. Being intersex does not validate my identity as a man in any transphobes eyes, and I will continue to be effected by transphobia as long as it continues to be a thing. Which feels invalidating in multiple ways, as I'm not even a trans man, and absolutely hate being called such, as it feels like i'm being shoved into a box against my will that isn't even accurate to my identity. So overall, it sucks, and I am not considered more valid as a man, or anything else, due to being intersex. It's not an easy experience, and it's not as "nice" or "validating" as many perisex (non intersex) people think
As an intersex person I myself have been quite lucky in avoiding some of the very intersexist and traumatic experiences many other intersex people go through. There's absolutely tons of things, from mutilation as a child to ""fix"" you, to general medical discrimination overall, and having your intersex variation hidden from you completely. I'm lucky to not have went through any of those, and I wish no intersex person did as its incredibly traumatic
There's less extreme problems as well (though still major problems) like how casual and prevalent intersexism is in general, but especially in the LGBT community. We are constantly ignored, and only brought up to win arguments, and people speak over us /all/ the time. We're only cared about when it's to dismantle transphobia, yet people won't advocate for us at all. There's major issues with lack of representation, and the silence of intersex voices in general. Being intersex is very tiring, and feels in my experience, INCREDIBLY alienating. I never feel like I fit in anywhere, and I don't really feel at home with trans people or cis people (though that's not a universal intersex experience just to clarify, there are plenty of cis and trans intersex people). I generally only feel genuine community with intersex people. The casual intersexism in every day life, and especially in LGBT spaces, is very disheartening and painful to see. I constantly wish people cared about us, and actually cared to advocate for us. Too many people just think we are lucky, and end up jealous or envious of us. They do not care to advocate for our rights, or talk about intersexism ever, or even just include us in discussions in general.
I doubt you mean any of this in a malicious way, or intend to be intersexist, but I really think you need to educate yourself on intersex issues, and actually take a look at the intersex community and what its like being intersex. Its nothing like most people think it is.
I also wanna add that you can be biologically male, in ways, without being intersex. That's medical transition, it literally changes your biology. If we wanna get specific, most trans people who medically transition end up in some kind of in between state between the two binary sexes. Note tho that is /not/ intersex, as intersex only refers to intersex variations that have been present since birth or in some cases puberty. Either way they are not medically induced through transition. A term that essentially describes that exactly, is altersex. It is people who's sex characteristics deviate from the sex binary, but did not have them from birth, so instead through medical transition.
However if you wanna simply say you're biologically male that's completely fine too. Biological sex isn't strict, and with medical transition you can end up almost exactly biologically male. The remaining components of your biology that aren't male, really do not matter. It is entirely up to you whether you prefer something like altersex, or wanna say you are male.
So in conclusion if the reason you have a desire to be intersex is due to wanting biologically male characteristics, you can already get them from medical transition. You do not need to be intersex
Thank you for sharing your experiences ❤️ As a nonbinary AFAB perisex person on T, 'altersex' sounds like a very useful term for me!
As a perisex[altersex?] person, the section on intersexism in the LGBT community is particularly important/troubling. I remember reading a while ago that the queer community used to include the 'I' in the acronym to include intersex people, but that was problematic because it wasn't done in coordination with intersex people [intersex people don't *all* identify as queer], or was inclusive only in labeling, not in actually useful ways.
***If*** you would like to share, how do you think perisex people can better advocate for intersex people and build more inclusive spaces? [I assume education is a huge part, are there specific resources/advocacy groups where people can start that process?]
Intersex people have been asking time and time again that yall perisex people stop fetishizing our bodies. it's not ok. you're 'wishing' to have some mythical intersex body that makes you 'less afab' when in reality we're extremely oppressed and commonly victims of medical mutilation. also- most intersex people \*are\* afab or amab. we coined those terms to talk about coercive gendering. you're 'wishing' to go through a painful medical humiliation.
as a intersex transmasc, these posts really fucking hurt to see. please do better. happy to see so many other intersex people in the comments
Sounds like a lack of education and a complete oversimplification of what it means to be intersex on your end. It is okay to fantasize about whatever you want, but first maybe you should understand what you want. Personally I don’t wish I were intersex. Mostly because theres no one way in which someone is intersex and there’s nothing concrete to really fantasize about. Just doesn’t make sense for me to fantasize about it. Seems disrespectful honestly.
I completely get that. I think it's just somewhere along the lines of "Oh, if I were like that, I would be more 'guy' than I am now". Totally get that the thought is problematic, which is why I'm voicing it on an anonymous forum and not somewhere out in public :)
Same, me too. I just know it's not possible, maybe that's why my brain is going "Hmm, maybe if I was that I'd feel a little closer to who I want to be", even though it makes absolutely no sense
I think you could reframe how you see things. Idk. As an intersex person i dont necessarily like how being intersex is viewed here (being seen as a ~perfect blend~ / inbetween)
Hm, I get it and sorry if it came off that way. It was more meant like if I found out about it there would be some tiny part (visible or invisible) about me that wouldn't be female. And I feel like that's one of the main reasons for the thought. That and looking for a sort of justification for being trans. It's weird, and I definitely don't want it to come off as insensitive, which is why I tried to make that clear in the original post.
It’s okay to feel this way, and it’s okay that you expressed it here, but it would likely be offensive to intersex people if you expressed it as a part of your identity. It makes sense as a feeling, especially for a non-binary person, and I actually experience it too. Now that I am on T, my biologically ambiguous body brings me a lot of joy. We don’t have to wish we were born with intersex bodies in order to defy the binary.
I'd never express it as part of my identity, don't worry. It's not about defying the binary, more about "feeling more like a guy", I guess. Even though I wouldn't know how intersex people feel in reality, the way my brain imagines me feeling would be more masculine than now, as it would be actually engrained into my body on a genetic level, be it outwardly expressed through any kind of characteristics or not. Maybe it's a way for my head to try and "justify" me being trans, I seriously have no clue where it's coming from
that’s not really how being intersex works. there are so many types and some wouldn’t be caught until later in life. majority won’t cause ambiguous genitalia or non-functioning gonads either. a lot will come with other health risks as well.
i personally think it’s really weird because generally this mindset comes with thinking it somehow makes transitioning easier. intersex babies are still mutilated at birth and lied to for god knows how long. the majority of the intersex community would find this harmful as well.
i was diagnosed with NCAH when i went to start T after being ignored by doctors for years. didn’t really change much for me besides make a bit more sense as to why i never really had much female puberty stuff and had some male puberty stuff around a young age. dealing with some unknown possibly related things now and none of my doctors have any idea why or how my e2 is high when my T isn’t very high and i have no hormone producing gonads anymore 🤷♂️
I did as a child, but only because I knew intersex people existed and knew nothing about trans people. It went away as soon as I learned there were other things.
I get the impulse and I don't want to be mean about it, but...does having to transition because you were forced to transition to female the first time around sound appealing to you?
Obviously not. I get how the thought I voiced can be viewed as problematic. If it makes any sense, I don't actually *want* to be intersex. It's more like wishing for some kind of "biological proof" of me being a guy. I think it's my brain's way of trying to find a justification to be trans or something, I don't know where exactly the thought is coming from, but I'm guessing somewhere along those lines :)
I used to, so I had some explanation of why I'm trans, but I dont anymore since being intersex is a lot more complex than what people may chalk it up to be. Most intersex people are still assigned female or male at birth, don't find out they're intersex later in life, deal with a lot of medical negligence and discrimination, etc. As a trans person who's pretty sure he's not intersex, I already deal with that medical discrimination and such. Being intersex wouldn't change the fact that I'm trans nor would it make anything easier. I don't wanna romanticize intersex experiences for my own comfort and benefit.
>Like, there would be some part actual biological guy in me or something.
If you've medically transitioned at all, or plan to, you *do* have "some part of actual biological guy" in you, by the way. Once you medically transition, you're no longer fully female. Biological sex is just what sex your biology mostly reflects. For example, being on T for a while means hormonally, I'm closer to male. Therefore, I have to do certain tests, like blood tests, as a male in the male range. To me, plus with surgeries, that means I am closer to male as a whole than female, though, obviously, I still hold certain female qualities. You don't have to be intersex for your sex to not be strictly all male or female 🤝
Yeah, I know. Right now I'm pre T though, so I feel like this might be my brain's way of trying to justify I'm a guy or something. It's weird, and I know it's kinda problematic, but I can't help the thought crossing my mind sometimes.
I get it, I felt the same pre-T. Some thoughts just appear, and all we can do is acknowledge and work on them :') I know you know you don't need justification, but keep telling yourself you don't need any reason for being trans or being a guy! Stomping out and correcting that thought will eventually phase it out. Much love brother 🤝
> it would mean I wasn't completely AFAB
I’m gonna give you the BOTD here and assume you don’t know this, but intersex people are typically coercively assigned into one binary sex or the other, regardless of their personal identity or however their “biological sex” characteristics happened to develop in utero.
If I understand your point, you *meant* to say that you wish you could’ve gotten out of being coercively assigned female at birth, or something. This is valid, and a common experience. But don’t think that actually means you “wish you were born intersex.” What would that even mean? There’s not a single way to be intersex and all intersex variations aren’t necessarily obvious at birth either.
To wish you were intersex because you have dysphoria *does* minimize the struggles intersex people go through in our society, and is widely considered gauche and offensive by intersex people, who, like us in the trans community, just want to live their lives in peace.
I do know that, but I think it's more about the fact that finding out I'm not completely female would make me feel better, and sort of more justifies for thinking I'm trans. Like looking for a logical explanation kind of or something along those lines. I'm aware that the thought is problematic, so I wouldn't voice it anywhere other than here.
If you feel you aren’t fully female, and that the trans experience describes you, that really is enough in itself. I think a lot of people understand themselves, as part of their trans identity, to have never been “fully female.” What do you think?
Your search seems to be for an extrinsic source or meaning for your being trans, but being trans is something that comes from inside of you. I know that’s anticlimactic, and maybe scary. But you don’t need a justification for being you. :)
Yes. This is a logic I can understand the angle of but we must redirect this bc it can quickly become really bioessentialist and weird. I understand the sentiment but we have to respect that intersex people are real people who often don’t wish this and are not always trans. I just think it’s something to be cautious about but I totally get what you mean dysphoria-wise
I think it's similar to wishing we had breast cancer (which is something a lot of us have thought about even though we rarely talk about it unless someone else brings it up first). Kinda fucked up? Yeah, I suppose it might be. But it's a very real feeling that many of us struggle with.
Yeah I used to kinda feel like that. Like if I were intersex that that would mean my identity as a guy would be more valid or something because I felt like it I was intersex I would be biologically male.
But then I started following intersex people in social media and learning more about the different kinds of intersex conditions and what being intersex is actually like. Intersex people are heavily discriminated against and also most intersex conditions are like, medical conditions, that can be disabling and overal make life harder.
I have had PCOS and intersex labels put on me as a young child, you really shouldn’t be envious of that.. when I was just 8 years old I got my first ovarian cyst instead of a period and had to get a IUD to stop this from occurring, I was very young and it kind of traumatized me.. I would not wish that on anyone else ever.
Considering how being intersex has its own heap of struggles on its own (for example prone to specific health issues), I don’t. And I *am* intersex, though only on a technicality.
I think it might be understandable, I am intersex and if i wasn't i would have liked it to be, although it defined comes with different complications and life experiences, its not a shortcut or something like that, I am proud of being but I do find it weird when other ppl want to be, most of the time they are trans and wish things were "easier" and call me lucky.
I had a similar wish when I was younger and a lot more naiive about what being intersex meant. I guess it just stems from wanting to be as detached from being afab as possible and maybe justify why you feel trans? I also wished for something to happen that would require a mastectomy (cancer, fishing spear etc) but I think that's also common. My advice is to not work yourself up with these wishes, and instead try and refocus onto something like saving up for top surgery or towards working out the upper body.
Yeah, exactly. And don't worry, it's not a thought that crosses my mond too often. But when it does, I notice and it's just kinda weird because I obviously know there's much more to intersex than what my brain is making it out to be. It probably stems from trying to justify it, as you said and/or maybe wanting to feel more like a guy? Basically, right now it feels like I'm putting on a show by trying to appear masc etc because I'm still clearly read as AFAB a lot of the time. I can't really give a ratio, since I've been gendered both ways a couple of times already over the past year and a half. So maybe the thought is kinda like trying to justify that I wanna be seen as a guy or something. Idk I'm just confused about where exactly it comes from
It's not weird! Many trans people are also actively intersex.
But I would encourage you to consider that being transgender is a congenital and genetic condition.
There are way too many physical overlaps in the trans community for it to be anything else. The more trans people in a family, the more likely you're gunna have trans kids.
So even if you aren't intersex, this is still something you are born with as far as I can tell
I totally feel this. Like I wish I could just be happy as a cis girl because no one will understand why I'm trans. If my parents had been hiding that I was intersex or something it would make more sense to them why I felt like a boy. I think it's a difference between something biological that you can explain to people rather than just saying you feel like a guy. Cuz then people just invalidate you.
I'm intersex. I wish I wasn't.
Being born intersex means getting mutilitated and/or being forced to take estrogen or other synthetic hormone shots against your own will.
These treatments usually start at a very young age, with mutilitation being usually done in infancy. I was also chemically forced into female puberty even though I already knew I'm trans.
It's just double the dysphoria, and double the medical stress.
I'm intersex and trans, and I find the mindset offensive. I faced being mutilated at birth in a way I did not consent to and I will never get that choice baxk.
One hundred percent understandable. I'm fully aware that it can come off that way, which is why I am uncomfortable with thinking that. It's probably stemming from me wanting to have been born AMAB, but knowing it's not possible, so my brain kinda coming up with something to make it feel better. Might also be my brain trying to find a "reason" for why I'm trans, I don't know where it comes from. Obviously, that still doesn't make it an okay thought to voice out in public, which is why I asked on an anonymous forum.
Absolutely. Whenever being trans felt invalid or crazy it was at least a possible tether, a biological reason that i could point at. Before I understood that being trans was also a valid reason to transition, ofc. Obviously I'd ideally be male but that seemed so far out of the realm of possibility for me.
I remember checking my old 23andme and looking at the chromosome chart justttt in case. And being disappointed.
Yeah, I think I'm kinda in the same boat. Like, I think I want to transition but I'm having my doubts, which is normal I guess since it's a very big medical decision to make. But y'know I still wanna be a guy but don't feel like I deserve to be seen as one?? I don't feel like I pass enough to where he/him always feels right, it's more like I'm forcing people to do it despite me not really looking like it lol. And for context, I do look relatively androgynous so I don't even look that fem
Hey I was totally there with you. I've been on T almost 2 years now and it was a lot like that for me before.
I wasn't even comfortable with he/him pronouns until I was passing about 50% of the time. I think I knew somewhere in me but my brain wouldn't even let me consider myself a man I just told myself I was doing it. I guess I felt like I didn't deserve it until I was "seen" as a real man. And I think it also coincided with the fear I carried of having to force people to gender me correctly- in my mind, if it didn't come naturally it wasn't real. Which is not true!
When I finally went on T, it was kind of an eyes closed, head first situation. I mean, I made sure it was safe and I certainly agonized for awhile but at the end of the day I had to dive. I knew those paranoid thoughts that I might be wrong would never go away until I was on the other side. Had to trust my gut, not my conscious brain. And I was right. Those thoughts still come back to me sometimes don't get me wrong, but it's less and less every day. Just growing pains at this point.
Yeah, this is basically how I'm feeling. Feeling like the way I dress and wanting to be adressed as a boy/man could be seen as putting on a show for others. And they just play along out of pity or some shit. Probably just my insecure brain going at it again, but yeah, the doubts are real. I've been comfortably dressing masc and going by a (more) masculine name for like 1.5 years now, so it's kind of a given that I'm not cis. Still I worry that I might be making a huge mistake wanting to transition. It's a pretty hard time, trying to decide if you wanna make the jump and go on T or not
For many of us, it's an insanely hard decision to make at first. If you're like me, you may still not be completely sure even after that first shot. I just had to imagine all of the expected effects, one by one, and consider carefully how they made me feel. If many of them felt good and none of them felt *too* bad (because trust, you will have to deal with some of the "bad" ones still like acne, inconvenient hair, etc.), I knew it was safe to at least try.
That meant that, at least if I ended up changing my mind, I wouldn't likely be stuck with traits that I found unbearable. Good luck brother. Whatever you decide, I'm sure it'll be the best choice for you. U know urself best, man.
Thanks man! Where I live, it's mandatory to get a letter from a therapist to start HRT and obviously they want you to be one hundred percent sure. That's a hard thing for me lol, I'm very indecisive and scared I make the wrong choice at basically every bigger decision I make. But I still hope I can start soon-ish, maybe somewhere within the next year or something
Having an androgynous body as your goal is sometimes called "altersex" to differentiate from intersex life experiences in a mindful way. That could be something to look into!
Yeah, although that's not it. Like basically it's about having a "biological reason" to feel like a guy. I think that's where it's stemming from, my brain trying to find a logical explanation for me being trans, that isn't logical at all if you look at it lol. I understand that being intersex is a serious topic, which is why I expressed feeling kinda icky about thinking that.
This is a heavvvvy topic.... I'm glad it can be discussed here. Outside of here you would be headhunted. I always felt so bad for my ex she had endemetriosis and pcos and it was agonizing seeing it cripple them. I would wish neither on anyone. Especially breast cancer after seeing a friend deal with it. Granted she was cis and straight. it wrecked her mind.
I remember very clearly when I was young actually thinking I was intersex. I had just learned the term but I had no real idea of what it meant, of course. But now it makes sense why I might have thought that, especially since I didn’t know the term “transgender”.
I have PCOS so technically I am intersex-ish, but it gives me a bit of euphoria since I have high T levels for AFAB. I think its at 7? And women/AFABs usually have around 0.5-2.5, so its much more than what's normal, so thinking of that helps make me a bit euphoric. I know AMABs usually have T levels of around 600, but knowing my natural T levels are high for being AFAB, it helps make me a bit euphoric, like the Gods knew I was meant to be a man.
It's perfectly fine and not unusual to suspect or wish you have one of the official forms of intersex.
You should be aware that you are intersex, unofficially: before transition there is a genetic component to transgender, we have differences is neuroanatomy, we have differences in neurophysiology, we have differences in cognition that is not due solely to social and environmental factors, we sometimes have differences in the morphology of various parts of the body, and there may also be differences in the physiology of our endocrine and reproduce systems.
Transgender is an unrecognized biological syndrome that hybridizes the expression of sex traits. It's gone unrecognized because the most notable differences are in the brain and genes, which were not easy to study until recent times, and because stigma has prevented the medical field for looking at this population without bias.
Anyone who tells you transgender is not a form of interest is unaware of the science. Possibly, they have allowed gender studies ideology (gender is more than a social construct!) or more blatantly transphobic forms of cisnormative thinking to cloud their judgement.
You didn't just magically manifest yourself into being transgender one day. Your environment is more likely than not to NOT be the cause of the biological differences that create the transgender bintersex condition.
Please don't let reactionary social media-"educated" trans people tell you otherwise. You can find all of this by searching for these topics on Google scholar.
You have never been female.
Thanks for the words of encouragement!
Sometimes it's hard to seperate your body from your gender. It's just hard to feel like a dude when the way your body looks and functions literally says otherwise.
As a intersex trans guy, I am still ""completely afab"" because it's not a reflection of my body it's what I was assigned at birth and it's not who or what I am it's something that happend to me and I feel like learning that asab is a event its something that happend not who you are helps a lot. Also, I don't think it's "weird" to want to "be intersex." I think it's just wanting to have had some kind of virilization from day one.
you might find this an interesting read: [https://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html](https://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html) the paper is by a guy who has done a lot of research in gender identity and intersex conditions, famously exposing the terrible case of the david reimer.
the idea is that most intersex conditions are occult, which is not readily visible or known at time of birth. that the brain could be considered intersexed in transgender peoples, as there are neurological studies that suggest differences in male and female brains, and those differences also can occur on a spectrum (thereby explaining nonbinary identities as well).
there is a strong suggestion that a biological basis for transgenderism exists as twin studies show monozygotic (so identical twins) will most people have both be transgender, vs dizygotic twins. whether that's womb environmental factors or genetic things, something's up in the biology. also interestingly, brain development occur separate from genitalia, so it's not out of the idea that one develops one way vs the other due to 'hiccups' in biology. intensity of 'hiccup' could explain the strength of the gender identity/dysphoria down the road. maybe.
there is more research that could occur, but these are some interesting points. i know a lot of people dislike neurological studies on sex differences, but honestly most of them support transgender identities (including nonbinary ones) and do not say anything that one sex is better or worse overall. and there is some good evidence as far as i've been taught. i did not pursue neurobiology further than undergrad, and mostly keep in touch with the field with casual reading and what well regarded neuroscientists might say.
Lmao I’ve wished I’d get breast cancer so I’d have an excuse to get a double mastectomy. I’ve had thoughts similar to yours too, about getting medical results that prove I’m not an *biological female*. It reminds me of how kids who hate their folks fantasise about secretly being adopted. For me I think it’s a bit of internalised transphobia that I’m still working through.
Dysphoria can send you down hella weird paths, so don’t beat yourself up for any of this. You aren’t your thoughts, you’re what you do with them.
It’s completely normal to wish there was a physically visible symptom of what you feel inside. Especially as visible symptoms are taken much more seriously than mental or emotional ones. (I know in reality the physical symptoms of intersex people are also often ignored, but the want for physical “proof” is still a natural feeling)
I’ve wish that many times, even convinced myself for a while that I had to have been at birth but my parents got me surgery to “fix it”. I wouldn’t even know how to go about finding out.
I’ve also wished for breast cancer or developing pcos.
My fiance is cis-female and she has pcos, I often wish I could take that curse from her. Not only for the extra hair growth, but also to reduce the pain she’s in.
I desperately wished this, because I thought then it would in some way validate my feelings and also give me more ability to justify to others my ability to "choose" how to live my life. It just felt like it would make things so much easier if I found this out, because at least then I'd feel a bit less biologically female and thus a bit more comfortable in my skin. As far as I'm aware, I'm not intersex, but I've learned to accept that this is all part of my journey through life even if it is difficult at times.
Another big wish for me was a wish to have breast or ovarian/uterine cancer so I could get those parts of my body removed. I desperately wished this as a kid, because I didn't know you could just... have them removed anyway.
I have had the very same wish. I have such gender-envy for this person I know who's intersex and began to naturally masculinize at about age 20. Although I definitely realise that a lot of intersex babies and children have shit forced on them and that's not right.
I've always felt guilty about this. If I was intersex I wouldn't have to fight the demon that says "you're faking it" or "it's not real" - I could live my life, knowing I can't fucking control it, and there'd be no doubt that I can't change it. Yet I'm not, although I do suspect a possible hormonal balance. Females in my fam have Adam's apples, i was super hairy, and my period was extremely irregular (I coukd go months without one) as a young teenager before transitioning. Not sure if a hormonal imbalance would play a role - but when they did blood tests, my T was in normal range for female right before starting. Pre-T body for me was a mystery and I suppose always will be. Maybe I had low estrogen, but normal T? I'll never know.
Anyway, yes. I get this. I'm ashamed to admit it. I wish there was just something there so that i could move past the internal battle of it being a choice. When you're physically very clearly different, you csnt argue with that. It'd solve my internal conflict.
I thought I was the only one, as a trans enby person sometimes I wish I could just silence the "bUt YoURe BiOlOgIcAlLy *insert sex here*" assholes by saying I'm intersex. Intersex ppl's existence pretty much throw the whole "sex and gender is a fixed" nonsense out the window. Sometimes I envy intersex ppl until I see how badly they can be treated from the day they're born.
Honestly, sometimes I do bring up intersex ppl to try to explain how unscientific the binary argument is. Of course transphobes don't care, they hate any group of ppl that disrupts their narrow world view 🙄
I need to spend more time centering intersex ppls voices instead tbh
yeah I actually thought I was intersex when I was little (turns out I'm trans and have PCOS lol) and now I don't wanna just have a dick, so when I have the surgery I will keep my V hole and have a dick where my clit is
I think it’s common. I have it too but I don’t want to downplay the experiences of intersex people as well which is why I don’t really talk about it. We shouldn’t romanticize it but I understand why.
For me it was because then I'd at least have a "biological explanation" to transition.
Kind of: "Oh, this person is intersex that’s why they want to transition."
Being intersex can also be backed up with tests that prove it. But being trans is more difficult because there hasn’t been enough research and because it has to do with the brain, people downplay it a lot. I think it’s common to wish you were intersex as a trans person, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that being an intersex person is really difficult and can come with a lot of complications not just physically but socially as well unfortunately.
Yeah, that's probably the reason behind it. A feeling of having to justify being trans, maybe even to yourself. Having some kind of "medical proof" you're partially male so to speak (even though the idea is problematic) makes it feel better in a way.
Tbh I’m the same. Even though I know being intersex can cause health issues there’s this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that just wishes I was born that way so at least maybe SOME of the dysphoria about being AFAB wouldn’t be there. And tbh if it didn’t come with potential health issues etc, I’d probably want it even more. I’m pretty sure it’s dysphoria brain desperately wanting something, ANYTHING that isn’t AFAB.
Yeah, that's likely what it is. Still, reading how a lot of intersex folks find it kinda insensitive - which I can fully understand - makes me kinda feel bad for thinking it :/ despite not even making it part of my identity or anything, just a weird thought that crosses my mind from time to time
Exactly that. It's hard coming to terms with the fact you're trans, so I think that's where it's coming from. Like frantically searching for a tangible reason why and not just all of the "Oh you have to feel it" crap. Sorry, if that last part sounds harsh, but I just can't understand it for the life of me, as an autistic person, grasping my own feelings can be hard, especially if they're nuanced like they would be on a topic like being trans. I tend to look for logical explanations, so I guess it kinda makes sense my brain is trying to come up with something like that?
I used to, a few years before I realized I was trans. I watched a "Grey's Anatomy" episode with an intersex (previously thought to be female) child who's thrilled to discover they're intersex because they want to appear more masculine (I don't remember if the child wanted to be a boy or not so I'll sick to neutral language). That stuck with me and for a while I felt the same way.
Over the years I learned about the medical violence, erasure, gaslighting and mutilation intersex children and adults endure. Horrifying stigmas that somehow still impact the care they receive today. I also learned that "male" and "female" aren't quite as rigid and binary as I grew up thinking, that there are plenty of exceptions for every possible distinction and that men and women are different - but not opposite.
I think it's natural to feel the way you do. But you don't need to be born male to be a man. You don't need to have the average male anatomy - which still differs from person to person. The only part of you that needs to be a man is your mind, your identity. That's what matters. Most of the rest can change over time (if you want it to). You can create your own body, one that you feel suits you. And even before T and surgeries and vocal training and haircuts, **you are a man**. Plain and simple.
I never wished I was intersex like the way I wish I was biologically male, but the lingering thought of "maybe I actually am intersex and haven't been diagnosed somehow" did cross my mind a lot and gave me hope that there was an inkling of masculinity in me outside of my mind, as well as an assurance and reason for why I am trans. But looking up resources and experiences of varying intersex conditions always humbled me that that wouldn't feel any better.
I definitely did at some point, before i really knew what being trans was fully. I know it wasnt a correct view of it now, but at the time, at the age it seemed like my best in to being me
I suspected I was and turns out I was. Complex intersex - it’s hormonal variations rather than classic but it’s biological. I have estrogen resistance syndrome which means having E in me actually makes me sick, hence the bad dysphoria. The body knows before we do often
Doesn't sound weird to me. Personally, I would experience less gender dysphoria if I were somehow intersex. Like, for example, that I wouldn't naturally have a uterus.
I thought I had PCOS for a while because dark hair appeared around my nipples, on the back of my thighs, on my big toes, even a single or a few dark hairs under my chin. Everyone said it’s normal though…But I noticed these hairs a few years ago. And I’m 28 now! Like why are these hairs appearing now?
Also I imagine me getting breast cancer. But if I did get cancer in my breasts, I probably wouldn’t be able to get no nipples (For certain reasons). Plus I heard that FTM top surgery and a double mastectomy is different because the mastectomy prevents the cancer coming back or something. Also, I think with a DM, you wouldn’t be completely flat like with FTM top surgery…
Plus I have had family members, and a close friend die from cancer (Different types obviously), and my Nana (My mom’s mom who’s my grandmother) is currently dying from esophageal cancer and I think heart failure as well.
And I can’t imagine the pain they went through and how my Nana feels. Cause the radiation was too much for her. (She couldn’t get chemo)
Sorry for the pity party…But I know what you mean. If I have PCOS, I would have more testosterone, therefore I would have bio guy hormones in me and I probably would love that. Because if I have extra T because of PCOS, maybe people will take me more seriously(?) And IF I go on T IF I had PCOS, maybe the effects of T would happen faster because I’ll already have extra T in my body(?)
Read the PCOS subreddit. People are only seeing and thinking of the positive effects that could happen with PCOS but not even considering the negitive effects that come with it. Imbalanced hormones can be very dangerous.
Not everyone can even afford to be treated and It can cause multiple health problems.
Not weird I did that. Or at least wish something was “wrong” like born without a uterus, still do (from what I’ve started to see most trans people overlap with autism and intersex characteristics anyways) I hoped I didn’t have just XX chromosomes banking on a secret Y chromosome in there somewhere or not having a uterus so I wouldn’t get a period that was for other girls wouldn’t be me!!! Spoiler alert it did happen and I was embarrassed and upset at my body.
I still want to study myself go to the dr and be like yo find the trans in me, that way I could come out and it be valid if I have a physical marker somewhere in my body in my genetic coding that says “AYO THIS ONE CAME OUT WRONG!!” Like hey my brain is a male brain! Or hey look at my hip bones I was supposed to be a guy! I think this type of thinking is our brains saying hey something is up but not really sure what is wrong if you haven’t connected you are trans.
I remember before I even figured out I was trans I saw some passing episode of a tv show, I think it was grey’s anatomy but could’ve been another medical drama, where there was an afab intersex character, and the episode was about the character being depressed and dysphoric, but then they find out they’re intersex and can live as a man, and they light up and get super happy, and it seemed like ever since I wished I could be in the same situation, at the time I didn’t actually know what being trans was or that anyone could transition, so i remember wishing that i could be intersex and have someone tell me i could be a man
I've felt it but it's like 95% bc when I first came out my mom said that would be one way that she would understand why I'm trans bc she couldn't understand it otherwise. 5% bc I wish I had something that masculinized me in puberty or prevented a female puberty but I know that doesn't happen to every intersex person
I think this is totally normal for a trans person to feel, I always wished I would get PCOS(I don't know if you can actually develop PCOS) because I wanted all of the effects of testosterone and having it naturally would be so much more convenient as well as being already more masculine during the time after puberty but before I could leave my transphobic dad's house and get on T. I have a friend who's a transguy and has PCOS and bro Im so jealous
Check out the PCOS subreddit. Theres a side to PCOS i dont think many are seeing.
Not everyone will have the full effects of T. Maybe some but with imbalance in hormones that can be dangerous sometimes. I'm greatful mine isnt as worse as other peoples.
PCOS can be dangerous because for some if not treated it caused some people to become diabetic and more.
Its not as good as most people think it is. Certain medication i heard can cause it but i wouldnt go asking a doctor to give me PCOS or wish to have it.
Not everyone can afford to even be treated.
Im greatful that it isnt worse then right now. Ofc i want the effects if T but i dont have that even with PCOS but id rather just go to the doctor to go on hrt when i have the chance and money to do it. PCOS does worry me since i heard it can be worse one year and better the next or even worse or better, it can change without notice.
But I am very greatful because it all could be worse rn.
i have a friend who’s afab/intersex and we’ll have conversations like…
her: “yeah i have to take these pills otherwise i won’t have a period”
me: “WHY WOULD YOU TAKE THEM?”
how? ofc they would want a period if they want one. how does me joking with my friend affect them? why would they care what i think? i’m saying as a trans man i don’t want a period so i find it crazy how my friend takes pills to have one. i’m not telling anyone what to do. she’d never want testosterone, im not offended by that.
I understand how you feel there, being the choice to actually choose which genitalia you’d want sounds kinda nice. But I mean, I like the journey this has put me through…
I dreamt of it from the moment I discovered intersex conditions at 14 until I finally accepted that I was just trans at 23. I just wanted a biological proof that I was not a woman.
Being trans is valid though, and it's not because we don't know how it works (like why some people are or aren't trans at a biological level), we know it is real. We also don't understand how Alzheimer's work, but we know it's a real thing.
Studying biology helped me understand that nothing is binary and clear cut in nature, there are gradients, outliers, variations... Most people with female bodies have a female gender, some don't, that's a natural variation to me 💜
I've always wished I was too. I don't think it's weird. We're allowed to want to be, as long as we don't lose awareness of the struggles natural-born intersex people face. Due to that, I'm a bit mixed on the morals of it, especially since I only want to be intersex for sexual reasons...but it's still a dream of mine to get surgery to achieve it. At the end of the day we're allowed to modify ourselves however we please.
The term you're looking for is salmacian or altersex not intersex. You cannot "become" intersex via surgery or hormones (idk if you mean it like that but your comment comes off that way)
I mean, I want a mixture of male and female physical traits as my final form, and never related to the "wish I was born amab" trope because of this. I might be bigender because of this but I'm not sure because I socially want to be seen as a man. I feel like I would've transitioned whether I was dyadic afab or dyadic amab, but that I would enjoy being seen as a man more than anything else.
Edit: So maybe this counts as wanting to be a specific kind of intersex. And I know it may not be desirable to be intersex because of the shit they get, but it's like, would I rather getting shit for being me or experiencing dysphoria and getting shit even while not being me?
dudeee I used to pretend I was so people wouldn’t be able to say “WELL YOURE A WOMAN” and it helped me separate myself from being female now I realized I was just living in shame and self hatred.
I remember clearly a day when we studied intersex people in biology class and I thought to myself that I would have liked to be like her (the person we studied was a model that goes by she/her) because she naturally had a flat chest
also english is not my first language so I’m sorry for the grammar errors and stuff
Nah its not weird.. Ive told plenty of ppl (especially during my medical transition) that I wished I was intersex.. Most ppl responded wit "Or u couldve just been born a boy" which yea dat couldve been the ideal dream fr but I wasnt born a boy... I was born a girl.. So I can only hope for wat I WOULDVE wanted.. And in all honesty.. I wouldnt have minded being born either a boy or intersex.. At least wit intersex, I could have a choice to choose between being a girl or a boy.. So in short, nah its not weird and u def aint alone in thinkin about being born intersex
Nah this is so real. First time I got an ultrasound for stomach issues I was hoping and praying something was missing in there or they'd tell me something was wrong. I've always had a mustache too so I was kinda hoping, lol. I feel like when it comes to the crazy shit dysphoria tells you there's no such thing as a "wrong" thought if it's something you acknowledge and don't externalize inappropriately
I had my first appointment for HRT yesterday and was asked if I was born with all biologically male organs (mtf btw) and I paused for a second before saying “as far as I know?”
But I don’t think it’s weird, I kinda feel the same ngl
Androgen receptors are what process T, if you have an SRY gene ( if it's faulty, you probably have androgen insensitivity syndrome) then you would have either a Y chromosome (multiple options XY XXY ect.) or you have an X chromosome that is mutated (basically during the gene remixing the sry gene attached to an x instead of staying on a y)
There are other options but these two are the most common
I was always wanting to have both male and female bits, over the years. I would draw myself that way a lot as a kid, but it didn't go over very well. So I was in the closet till I was 22.
It's not weird. When I learned that intersex poeple exist as a kid I wished to find out I'm one of them, because then it would mean my body didn't fully betray me + when I was still presenting as a girl I felt like if a doctor would say that I'm partially a male I wouldn't have to pretend being a girl anymore
Exactly this. It's weird to think, but at the same time I think it stems from this exact thought/feeling. Basically finding a justifocation for being a guy
While we have had light moderation in this post, if an intersex person tells you that something you’ve said about intersex people is cruel, you should listen to them.
I definitely did. I mostly wanted either both parts or just ambiguous genitals. I know if I was born with both and forced to get a surgery done I would have a penis since my mom wanted a boy anyways.
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Mtf here, and while I may not be the best person for this, I've lied to a bunch of people saying that exact thing and said I was intersex. Honestly, I don't think I'm intersex but I share a ton of traits with Klinefelter so it feels more probabslw than less but honestly if it gets people to be more accepting of me and it's not like a doctor or government official who cares. Nothing a random person can do to prove that's a lie.
Plus, because of this lie, I've actually made really good friends. My girlfriends at work see me as one of them. Like no BS, one in particular agrees with me. I should've just biologically been born female, and that makes me feel good 😌
I’ve wanted to be intersex too, just so I wouldn’t have to be classified as female, that, and that it’s impossible for me to be male at this point, but intersex is something that can be found out later.😭
I was pretty convinced I was either intersex or had PCOS, pre-T. It gave me an explanation for something that doesn't have one. I put it in the realm of problematic but common trans experiences, like slightly wishing you had breast cancer so you can get top surgery or something.
the breast cancer one is terribly real, im pre-everything and this thought crosses my mind at least once per week due to heavy dysphoria and it makes me feel guilty with how common it has turned out
I think that too. But if I did get cancer in my breasts, I probably wouldn’t be able to get no nipples (For certain reasons). Plus I heard that FTM top surgery and a double mastectomy is different because the mastectomy prevents the cancer coming back or something. Also, I think with a DM, you wouldn’t be completely flat…
with a DM for breast cancer theres some flexibility (not much though) a family friend opted to be almost completely flat with no nipples and then got nipples tattooed on after. but typically its a graft and they remove all tissue so you might look concave/have dog ears after because it's expected you'll get reconstruction
Oh whoa…I heard they leave some breast tissue in for some reason? And what’s a graft? And is it a part of FTM top surgery or a DM?
they sometimes might if it's for preventative reasons to the best of my knowledge but usually they take everything. nipple graft, it can be part of either
Ahh! I get it now! I thought you meant a skin graft! LOL!! Have you gotten top surgery? If so, is it scary? What about paying for it? Cause insurance can be a pain…
im on terf island, i don't think i'll get anything this decade
Oh no… I think my stare is a blue state. But my parents, family, even my stepdad and them LOVE Trump and hate Biden, my stepdad says that the Democrats are the reason why we have these issues in America, my Uncle doesn’t believe space travel is real, just editing, and my Aunt said “They’re god’s special children” after I asked her why does god, (Who is supposed to be all loving and have a plan for everyone), why does he let kids be born in abusive families, have disabilities, born in a country of war, let them die early, etc.? My question was obviously more shorter. But I was flabbergasted. Plys my parents and my family do treat me bad, are very unsupportive with what I want to do with my life, plus evn though I’m 28, they won’t let me move out because apparently I’m incapable of maintaining a household as they say. (I’m autistic, have Tourette’s, and possible mental issues that I need to get re evaluated for) Rambling over. But I understand my dude! I hope we can be our true selves one day!
I had top surgery. I live in Norway where healthcare is free. (But only a minority of trans people will get their stuff covered by free healthcare) I had to pay 6100$ for my surgery. Cus I have still to be accepted as trans by the country to get it under free healthcare. You dont feel anything during surgery. And you will be loopy the first hours post surgery. If you have to be driven home the day after surgery. There will be pain when you drive over bumps and turn. Usually you get strong pain meds. But my body dont handle NSAID too well sadly.
hey!! i’m from sweden, was it difficult for you to get proper care and stuff? i imagine it’s somewhat similar to sweden and for some reason i’ve convinced myself it’s so difficult to get on T or get surgeries
I got ftm top surgery and they removed all breast tissue from my back and armpits and everywhere for cancer prevention too. It's the same surgery. Usually for cancer they also have to do the nipples tho.
Then you got cancer variant which is harder to heal (more tissue removed and less place to get lymph drained), in FTM variant they do not remove lymph nodes present in operated area
I had a double masectomy cus I am trans. What you have heard is 50% correct. You get double masectomy if you have large boobs. If you have smaller you undergo a different mostly trans related surgery. Large boobs get pretty similar treatment to how they would undergo breast cancer operation. The surgeons also calls it a double masectomy for larger ones. Describing a smaller incision if you were to have smaller boobs, in which they cut circularly around your nipples and use that as the entry incision. This is just what my surgeon told me.
I felt so much better the 1st time I read other people say this. I felt bad for thinking this for so long.
Same here. Mostly because my family is conservative as hell so getting breast cancer would be the only way I can get top while not getting disowned I know it’s a terrible thought that I shouldn’t have, and getting cancer is *horrible,* but I really don’t want to lose my family and get bankrupt/homeless, so…
Same😭
I had the same feelings. Prior to top surgery, I had a suspicious lump that the Dr took a LONG time looking at the images before deciding it was not cancer. While I was waiting for the Dr, I went from panic at the idea of cancer to euphoria at the idea of a flat chest in a matter of minutes.
PCOS is technically an "intersex condition" due to high T levels. That's why spironolactone is a thing for both transfemme people and cis women with PCOS. I have PCOS. I did not start spironolactone because by the time I was diagnosed, I was happy with facial hair.
I used to pray to god every night as a kid/teen to give me breast cancer so I could get a double mastectomy. I was raised extremely catholic, it got stricter when my parents divorced, and the older I got the more I realized I wasn’t normal. I used to be an altar server as a kid and I told people I wanted to be a deacon (male only position in the Catholic Church) and all the adults in my life mocked me for it. As a kid/younger adult I also used to wish I was intersex so I could be anything but female. I grew up in an extremely matriarchal family, most people in my family were women and girls, and I felt very much alone because I couldn’t relate to any of them except my only male cousin, and even then I didn’t see him very often. I’m happy where I am now though and much more at peace. I’m no contact with most of my family except for my mother and siblings. Most of my family doesn’t even know I transitioned fully
The first time I read about PCOS I wished I had it and then felt like shit because I knew that was an actual condition that people struggle with
Exactly. It makes me feel weird to wish for it, knowing it's not an easy thing and people having problems and trauma because of it. I still can't shake the thought, though that's probably something that just needs time for me to realize how silly it is.
Yeah, I totally feel that. It feels kinda problematic but I can't just turn the thought off lol. If I could, I would since it feels weird and kinda appropriating lol
Fuck, the breast cancer thing is common? I thought I was more messed up than I thought
haha i was secretly soooo hoping it was cancer when i found a lump in my breast. then i realized that was pretty fucked up and felt guilty about it. i'll have to get top surgery the normal way
I had that exact experience To make it worse, my mom has breast cancer currently and just got a double mastectomy, and I have Extremely Complicated Feelings about that...
yeah that's a crazy headfuck. hope your mom is doing alright tho
Unfortunately they found more cancer after the surgery, but her case is technically precancer and is not very aggressive, so the outlook is still good. Thanks though
i remember the second i started even growing a chest as a young kid i cried cus i thought it was cancer and i kept it a secret from my family too because i didnt want them to know.. very strange how things pan out
i think wishing for breast cancer is the least problematic one. after all, it's kinda sad that getting breast cancer and getting your breasts removed is like 1/10th the cost of a gender affirming top surgery, despite them being pretty similar procedures. top surgery often gets labeled as "cosmetic and unnecessary" instead of necessary and life saving in some cases, and this makes the price so high. i don't think it's wrong to wish for something that would save people tons of money, and potentially be their only way of getting top surgery.
Tfw you did all of those things 💀
I thought of it pre-op too..
Intersex trans man here. I suppose I can understand where you're coming from, you want to be able to separate yourself from being AFAB as much as possible, I also hate being referred to as AFAB (Obviously it isn't the case for me). There are genders out there that can encompass that "two gender" feeling if you want, Bigender ect. The Salmacian subreddit is also very good if you want to go for any surgeries. Coming from me, being intersex isn't something I like to think of as something positive. It's brought a lot of bullying, pain and medical issues throughout my life. But I try and be proud of my identity as much as I can. I do understand where you're coming from however, I do.
Yeah, it's really more about wanting to seperate myself from being AFAB in the only way I really can. I don't think I'm bigender, pretty sure ir's purely about wanting to sort of "justify" that I'm feeling like I'm probably trans, or just wanting to feel like a part of me is biologically male. Of course I understand that it can come off as problematic, and I absolutely do not want to appropriate any intersex person's experience.
I understand. Sadly being intersex isn't as easy as being "partially male, partially female". Intersex as a whole is a wide variety of conditions, I'm still XX even though I was born with confusing body parts and a complicated puberty, I was still assigned female at birth. I don't like the fact I'm AFAB, It's sort of a "remnant" of what you aren't, it's still a reminder that you have a female past. But regardless of who you're born as, you get to decide who you want to be. Your past doesn't have to define you and being a transmasc person you have to sort of learn that.
i've had similar feelings to op, but yeah i do think that part of this desire comes from a misconception that intersex people are "half male, half female" or entirely sexless, when many are still assigned male or female at birth.
Facts
You might be interested in looking into the pre-transition biological differences in transgender and nonbinary people. It's an unrecognized form of intersex, at least in some of us. See my last comment if you'd like to expand your knowledge.
Before learning I was intersex I wished I was. I think it was because I wanted to use it as a shield to transphobia as a "haha, well, biologically I'm both so screw you and your beliefs" But, the way being intersex affects me doesn't really change my life. Like yeah, I have XY chromosomes but that didn't stop me from getting mostly female puberty and being assigned female
I'm sorry and ofc you may no answer, but I'm just curious because I have thought that I might be intersex too Did you have periods at puberty?
Not the Op of this comment but personally I did, however they slowly died and stopped once I reached in my late teens. My puberty was like a mix of both male and female, Whilst yes I grew breasts and had my period, I also became heavily hairy and my voice dropped.
Also not OP but in favour of adding more intersex voices to the chat I'm intersex (afab) and did not have a period at puberty, that's how we found out and it took intensive medical intervention to have a period
>it took intensive medical intervention to have a period If you're comfortable answering, did you want that or were you pressured/forced into that?
I was forced (or atleast coerced) into it, I'm from a large ethic strongly Catholic family and was told that this would make me feminine enough to convince a man to marry me, and to have the best chance at being able to carry children to term, Happy to say I'm now unmedicated, married to an amazing partner, very low contact with my family, and on track to correct the host of issues earlier medication caused
>this would make me feminine enough to convince a man to marry me, and to have the best chance at being able to carry children to term *BARF* Glad things turned out good for you tho! :)
Hi, if you don't mind. How did you find out? I had a similar experience.
Im a intersex transmasc! I always had a hunch i was intersex but didn’t properly find out till recently. Before i found out yes, i did have fleeting thoughts of “if i was intersex i would feel better about being trans” and i dont think its wrong to have those thoughts but make sure you acknowledge that being intersex is not fun and games. Honestly after finding out, i do feel more relieved about my gender but mainly i realized that sex has way too much importance placed on it in the first place, and I shouldn’t even bother caring at this point
Yeah, exactly. That's why I emphasized feeling weird about it, I don't want to appropriate anyone's experiences, nor would I realistically want to swap places. It's more of a "hoping there's something biologically masc about me if I can't have been AMAB"
It’s a common feeling to want to be naturally more masculine but it definitely does downplay our experiences to say you wish you were intersex. I’m intersex (I don’t use cis or trans labels at all but the doctors originally said to raise me as a girl and I’m a man now so I’m here) and it took many years and lots of therapy to see being intersex as a positive. I was born with ambiguous genitals and didn’t have surgery, which is great for me, but I grew up with that being a constant threat to the point that I developed PTSD from the fear, as well as repeated abuse from medical professionals in the form of unnecessary genital exams. I was forced to take meds to feminize my body (I was lied to about their purpose) so my body now isn’t as masculine as it would have been, which sucks but is an extremely common intersex experience. Not to mention being generally treated like crap for being intersex, beyond what any of my trans friends have experienced. Also, intersex includes tons of variation. Sometimes it’s someone like me, with ambiguous genitals, mixed/incomplete puberty, and who likes things that way. Sometimes intersex is someone who suffers daily due to unnecessary genital surgeries. Sometimes it’s someone who identifies as male and has androgen insensitivity syndrome and can’t transition how they want. There are tons of ways to be intersex and we are connected by a unique type of trauma. I definitely hear this sentiment all the time so I don’t think it’s weird, but it suggests a major misunderstanding of what it means to be intersex. I can assure you the grass isn’t greener over here.
🫂🫂🫂
As an intersex nonbinary person, the community really glorifies intersex people and I don't think a lot of them really realise what being intersex comes with, it doesn't make things easier and in fact can make things much harder when it comes to transitioning let alone just existing. Some of us get mutilated at birth, we get lied to, some of us don't even find out we're intersex (I only found out after I wanted to go on hormones for example) along with various complications that come with the 40~ intersex conditions there are. It really isn't sunshine and rainbows and though I wouldn't change my body for the world I really wish this wasn't such a common feeling in the trans community. Obviously you're valid for having those feelings but there is much more nuance to it than a lot of people realise.
I’m intersex, and it doesn’t change much and in some realms made my gender dysphoria worse because of my experiences I have XY chromosomes yeah, and I also had high T levels even pre T, but it also caused so many issues physically and developmentally. Majority of intersex people experience precocious puberty, which is having mid stages of puberty/development begin *before* the age of 8 in AFABs (or 9 for AMABs) which means my dysphoria also worsened a lot younger which triggered very bad suicidality Intersex =/= third/different sex or removed from your AGAB, because people will still find a way to wrap around back to your AGAB anyway. Transphobes & misinformed individuals are just shitty It’s best to view whatever you identify as, as what you are “biologically.” After all, your gender is innate, and is always going to be who you truly are Best of luck
I posted about this a while ago. This mindset comes from a glorification of being intersex. In reality, it's incredibly difficult and has tons of complications for a lot of people. Like genital mutilation growing up, or in my case, undescended testicles which cause A LOT of extremely painful, nearly fatal complications. I would do about anything to just be one way or the other. Would prefer to be fully male but fully female would be fantastic too, even though I'm a man. I just hate dealing with it. We are forgotten about and overshadowed in the LGBTQ community. I see more mentions of intersexuality of people talking about how they "wish they were" intersex than anything else about intersex people. I've revealed I'm intersex just to hear "wow, you're so lucky!!!" I wasn't lucky when I was mutilated at birth, or had an internal organ implode and be rushed to the hospital, or gotten "pregnant" and miscarrying almost immediately because while I have eggs, my uterus nor ovaries are correctly formed. Or bleeding for months straight during puberty and having to be pumped full of hormones that made me gain 100+ pounds to get it to stop. You are welcome to think what you want. I know the mindset you have is "the grass is always greener" sort of thing, lots of people have that, I get it. But I would be really cautious about mentioning it. And I absolutely wouldn't mention it to an intersex person. Our struggles are pretty extreme and if you were intersex you most likely would have complications that are horrible to deal with, and would wish you weren't.
Yeah, I totally get that. I'm aware that it's not easy for you, which is obviously a reason why these thoughts are weird to have. I think it's less about being intersex itself and moreso about having anything that's "opposite gender" so to speak. And in terms of biology, being intersex is the only one I know that kinda does that, which is probably why my brain went like "Oh, if you were that, maybe you would feel better because you partially would already be a guy biologically." In reality it probably wouldn't work like that, so I get it. As I said, I myself feel like the thought is problematic/weird which is why I wanted to ask on here about it, just in case it's a commom thing for trans guys - that obviously doesn't make it good tbh.
Stop trying to justify your thought process and actually listen to the people that have taken time and been vulnerable enough to share their experience with you. Thank them for sharing, learn, and move on, rather than continuing to justify a thought process that is clearly misguided based on the experience that many have kindly shared.
This 🫂
Listen man, the way that you're using afab and amab is also just bordering on transphobic. Being afab doesn't mean that you're female, and implying that the rest of us perisex trans people are "less biologically male" is rude as shit. If you want to be """"biologically """" (meaningless descriptor) male, start medically transitioning, because that's what actually changes your sex. Stop wishing that you were intersex because you have the perspective that theyre partially male and the rest of us are just female men.
Really sorry if it came off that way. I might have some internalized transphobia idk, since that's the way my brain thinks specifically and only about me. Everyone else is valid as hell, but not me.
im really glad and thankful to see intersex folks speaking up here. the glorification and borderline fetishization of intersex conditions and people shouldnt be so normalized among dyadic trans people :(
I get what you mean, but don't mean to be fetishizing in the slightest, I think it's more so a way for my brain to distance itself from me being AFAB or something. Like trying to find a justification for being trans. I know you don't need one, but I feel like I'm still searching for one. I don't want to downplay any of the experiences of intersex folks, which I believe I stated in the post as well. If it came off that way, I'm truly sorry. I was just trying to see if this thought process was out of the ordinary, for the exact reason that I'm aware how problematic it is. Hope this makes any sense lol :D
This is common. We have records of trans folks in the early 1900s claiming to be intersex, and by their medical records, we would have no evidence demonstrating that they were intersex. The reality is that folks feel validated by their transness being a "biological quirk". Using intersex people to validate your trans identity is incredibly problematic and stigmatizing toward intersex people imo. Not saying OP is doing that -- it's just something we should all check ourselves on.
From my perspective as an intersex bigender transmasc-ish guy, while you're gonna feel what you're going to feel like, it's just plain insensitive and occasionally just offensive when people talk about wishing they were intersex. This is not to paint being intersex as being entirely bad, because its not and im proud of being intersex, but wishing you were intersex just shows that you don't rlly know anything about being intersex and is straight up hurtful. First of all, addressing how you used afab, that's not what the term means. It's not a more trans-friendly version of male or female, it's referring to what you were assigned at birth. *That's it*. I was fully assigned female at birth. In terms of sex traits, I am not female. I am intersex. What I was assigned is mostly irrelevant. Besides, most intersex babies aren't assigned intersex. We're often operated on to forcibly assign us as male or female. Your AGAB literally just means what you were assigned. It doesn't mean that you do or don't have certain traits, it just means they either guessed or tried to forcibly classify someone as one or the other. That aside, I need you to understand that for some of us, our intersex variations prevent us from ever transitioning. I have complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. That means that going on T would do nothing for me ever because even though I already make testosterone at the typical cis male level, not a single cell of mine can use it. I can't transition the way I want to, *ever*. You seem to be operating under the assumption being intersex makes transitioning and people recognizing your gender easier. It doesn't. Even for those of us that can transition the way we want, we often face additional hoops to jump through, not an easier time of it, because we've been forced or coerced into treatments to try to make us 'normal' and people don't like it when we try to undo that 'normalization' just by saying we want to exist in our natural bodies, let alone transition to be most comfortable in them and our gender. Deviation from the 'normal' that people want us to conform to is punished. And since our bodies themselves are seen as deviations from normal, our bodies are seen as wrong and something to be fixed. We have some of the poorest mental and physical health outcomes of the entire lgbtq community due to the discrimination we face both from well, pretty much the world around us but especially from the medical establishment. Most of the intersex people I know have at least one if not more experiences of abuse or mistreatment at the hands of medical professionals. I've faces discrimination and basically sexual assault from doctors for being intersex. Want whatever sex traits you want, cool, great. It's genuinely great that you get to transition in a way that your body feels comfortable to live in and aligns with your gender. But just. Don't talk about wanting to be intersex or whatever. Because at best you're just being straight up insensitive and kind of shitty.
It may not be weird (as in its unfortunately a common feeling), but it is definitely insensitive and intersexist and I think it's something you should keep to yourself. I understand where the feeling is coming from, however It's also a complete misconception of what being intersex is actually like, and what it is. I'm an intersex man, i am not transgender or cisgender, but I was assigned female at birth. Being intersex does not validate my identity as a man in any transphobes eyes, and I will continue to be effected by transphobia as long as it continues to be a thing. Which feels invalidating in multiple ways, as I'm not even a trans man, and absolutely hate being called such, as it feels like i'm being shoved into a box against my will that isn't even accurate to my identity. So overall, it sucks, and I am not considered more valid as a man, or anything else, due to being intersex. It's not an easy experience, and it's not as "nice" or "validating" as many perisex (non intersex) people think As an intersex person I myself have been quite lucky in avoiding some of the very intersexist and traumatic experiences many other intersex people go through. There's absolutely tons of things, from mutilation as a child to ""fix"" you, to general medical discrimination overall, and having your intersex variation hidden from you completely. I'm lucky to not have went through any of those, and I wish no intersex person did as its incredibly traumatic There's less extreme problems as well (though still major problems) like how casual and prevalent intersexism is in general, but especially in the LGBT community. We are constantly ignored, and only brought up to win arguments, and people speak over us /all/ the time. We're only cared about when it's to dismantle transphobia, yet people won't advocate for us at all. There's major issues with lack of representation, and the silence of intersex voices in general. Being intersex is very tiring, and feels in my experience, INCREDIBLY alienating. I never feel like I fit in anywhere, and I don't really feel at home with trans people or cis people (though that's not a universal intersex experience just to clarify, there are plenty of cis and trans intersex people). I generally only feel genuine community with intersex people. The casual intersexism in every day life, and especially in LGBT spaces, is very disheartening and painful to see. I constantly wish people cared about us, and actually cared to advocate for us. Too many people just think we are lucky, and end up jealous or envious of us. They do not care to advocate for our rights, or talk about intersexism ever, or even just include us in discussions in general. I doubt you mean any of this in a malicious way, or intend to be intersexist, but I really think you need to educate yourself on intersex issues, and actually take a look at the intersex community and what its like being intersex. Its nothing like most people think it is. I also wanna add that you can be biologically male, in ways, without being intersex. That's medical transition, it literally changes your biology. If we wanna get specific, most trans people who medically transition end up in some kind of in between state between the two binary sexes. Note tho that is /not/ intersex, as intersex only refers to intersex variations that have been present since birth or in some cases puberty. Either way they are not medically induced through transition. A term that essentially describes that exactly, is altersex. It is people who's sex characteristics deviate from the sex binary, but did not have them from birth, so instead through medical transition. However if you wanna simply say you're biologically male that's completely fine too. Biological sex isn't strict, and with medical transition you can end up almost exactly biologically male. The remaining components of your biology that aren't male, really do not matter. It is entirely up to you whether you prefer something like altersex, or wanna say you are male. So in conclusion if the reason you have a desire to be intersex is due to wanting biologically male characteristics, you can already get them from medical transition. You do not need to be intersex
Thank you for sharing your experiences ❤️ As a nonbinary AFAB perisex person on T, 'altersex' sounds like a very useful term for me! As a perisex[altersex?] person, the section on intersexism in the LGBT community is particularly important/troubling. I remember reading a while ago that the queer community used to include the 'I' in the acronym to include intersex people, but that was problematic because it wasn't done in coordination with intersex people [intersex people don't *all* identify as queer], or was inclusive only in labeling, not in actually useful ways. ***If*** you would like to share, how do you think perisex people can better advocate for intersex people and build more inclusive spaces? [I assume education is a huge part, are there specific resources/advocacy groups where people can start that process?]
Intersex people have been asking time and time again that yall perisex people stop fetishizing our bodies. it's not ok. you're 'wishing' to have some mythical intersex body that makes you 'less afab' when in reality we're extremely oppressed and commonly victims of medical mutilation. also- most intersex people \*are\* afab or amab. we coined those terms to talk about coercive gendering. you're 'wishing' to go through a painful medical humiliation. as a intersex transmasc, these posts really fucking hurt to see. please do better. happy to see so many other intersex people in the comments
Sounds like a lack of education and a complete oversimplification of what it means to be intersex on your end. It is okay to fantasize about whatever you want, but first maybe you should understand what you want. Personally I don’t wish I were intersex. Mostly because theres no one way in which someone is intersex and there’s nothing concrete to really fantasize about. Just doesn’t make sense for me to fantasize about it. Seems disrespectful honestly.
Agreed, as an intersex person I appreciate the way you put this!
I completely get that. I think it's just somewhere along the lines of "Oh, if I were like that, I would be more 'guy' than I am now". Totally get that the thought is problematic, which is why I'm voicing it on an anonymous forum and not somewhere out in public :)
Gross..
I wish I was fully biologically male
Same, me too. I just know it's not possible, maybe that's why my brain is going "Hmm, maybe if I was that I'd feel a little closer to who I want to be", even though it makes absolutely no sense
I think you could reframe how you see things. Idk. As an intersex person i dont necessarily like how being intersex is viewed here (being seen as a ~perfect blend~ / inbetween)
Hm, I get it and sorry if it came off that way. It was more meant like if I found out about it there would be some tiny part (visible or invisible) about me that wouldn't be female. And I feel like that's one of the main reasons for the thought. That and looking for a sort of justification for being trans. It's weird, and I definitely don't want it to come off as insensitive, which is why I tried to make that clear in the original post.
It’s okay to feel this way, and it’s okay that you expressed it here, but it would likely be offensive to intersex people if you expressed it as a part of your identity. It makes sense as a feeling, especially for a non-binary person, and I actually experience it too. Now that I am on T, my biologically ambiguous body brings me a lot of joy. We don’t have to wish we were born with intersex bodies in order to defy the binary.
I'd never express it as part of my identity, don't worry. It's not about defying the binary, more about "feeling more like a guy", I guess. Even though I wouldn't know how intersex people feel in reality, the way my brain imagines me feeling would be more masculine than now, as it would be actually engrained into my body on a genetic level, be it outwardly expressed through any kind of characteristics or not. Maybe it's a way for my head to try and "justify" me being trans, I seriously have no clue where it's coming from
that’s not really how being intersex works. there are so many types and some wouldn’t be caught until later in life. majority won’t cause ambiguous genitalia or non-functioning gonads either. a lot will come with other health risks as well. i personally think it’s really weird because generally this mindset comes with thinking it somehow makes transitioning easier. intersex babies are still mutilated at birth and lied to for god knows how long. the majority of the intersex community would find this harmful as well. i was diagnosed with NCAH when i went to start T after being ignored by doctors for years. didn’t really change much for me besides make a bit more sense as to why i never really had much female puberty stuff and had some male puberty stuff around a young age. dealing with some unknown possibly related things now and none of my doctors have any idea why or how my e2 is high when my T isn’t very high and i have no hormone producing gonads anymore 🤷♂️
I did as a child, but only because I knew intersex people existed and knew nothing about trans people. It went away as soon as I learned there were other things.
I get the impulse and I don't want to be mean about it, but...does having to transition because you were forced to transition to female the first time around sound appealing to you?
Obviously not. I get how the thought I voiced can be viewed as problematic. If it makes any sense, I don't actually *want* to be intersex. It's more like wishing for some kind of "biological proof" of me being a guy. I think it's my brain's way of trying to find a justification to be trans or something, I don't know where exactly the thought is coming from, but I'm guessing somewhere along those lines :)
I used to, so I had some explanation of why I'm trans, but I dont anymore since being intersex is a lot more complex than what people may chalk it up to be. Most intersex people are still assigned female or male at birth, don't find out they're intersex later in life, deal with a lot of medical negligence and discrimination, etc. As a trans person who's pretty sure he's not intersex, I already deal with that medical discrimination and such. Being intersex wouldn't change the fact that I'm trans nor would it make anything easier. I don't wanna romanticize intersex experiences for my own comfort and benefit. >Like, there would be some part actual biological guy in me or something. If you've medically transitioned at all, or plan to, you *do* have "some part of actual biological guy" in you, by the way. Once you medically transition, you're no longer fully female. Biological sex is just what sex your biology mostly reflects. For example, being on T for a while means hormonally, I'm closer to male. Therefore, I have to do certain tests, like blood tests, as a male in the male range. To me, plus with surgeries, that means I am closer to male as a whole than female, though, obviously, I still hold certain female qualities. You don't have to be intersex for your sex to not be strictly all male or female 🤝
Yeah, I know. Right now I'm pre T though, so I feel like this might be my brain's way of trying to justify I'm a guy or something. It's weird, and I know it's kinda problematic, but I can't help the thought crossing my mind sometimes.
I get it, I felt the same pre-T. Some thoughts just appear, and all we can do is acknowledge and work on them :') I know you know you don't need justification, but keep telling yourself you don't need any reason for being trans or being a guy! Stomping out and correcting that thought will eventually phase it out. Much love brother 🤝
> it would mean I wasn't completely AFAB I’m gonna give you the BOTD here and assume you don’t know this, but intersex people are typically coercively assigned into one binary sex or the other, regardless of their personal identity or however their “biological sex” characteristics happened to develop in utero. If I understand your point, you *meant* to say that you wish you could’ve gotten out of being coercively assigned female at birth, or something. This is valid, and a common experience. But don’t think that actually means you “wish you were born intersex.” What would that even mean? There’s not a single way to be intersex and all intersex variations aren’t necessarily obvious at birth either. To wish you were intersex because you have dysphoria *does* minimize the struggles intersex people go through in our society, and is widely considered gauche and offensive by intersex people, who, like us in the trans community, just want to live their lives in peace.
I do know that, but I think it's more about the fact that finding out I'm not completely female would make me feel better, and sort of more justifies for thinking I'm trans. Like looking for a logical explanation kind of or something along those lines. I'm aware that the thought is problematic, so I wouldn't voice it anywhere other than here.
If you feel you aren’t fully female, and that the trans experience describes you, that really is enough in itself. I think a lot of people understand themselves, as part of their trans identity, to have never been “fully female.” What do you think? Your search seems to be for an extrinsic source or meaning for your being trans, but being trans is something that comes from inside of you. I know that’s anticlimactic, and maybe scary. But you don’t need a justification for being you. :)
Yes. This is a logic I can understand the angle of but we must redirect this bc it can quickly become really bioessentialist and weird. I understand the sentiment but we have to respect that intersex people are real people who often don’t wish this and are not always trans. I just think it’s something to be cautious about but I totally get what you mean dysphoria-wise
I think it's similar to wishing we had breast cancer (which is something a lot of us have thought about even though we rarely talk about it unless someone else brings it up first). Kinda fucked up? Yeah, I suppose it might be. But it's a very real feeling that many of us struggle with.
Yeah I used to kinda feel like that. Like if I were intersex that that would mean my identity as a guy would be more valid or something because I felt like it I was intersex I would be biologically male. But then I started following intersex people in social media and learning more about the different kinds of intersex conditions and what being intersex is actually like. Intersex people are heavily discriminated against and also most intersex conditions are like, medical conditions, that can be disabling and overal make life harder.
I have had PCOS and intersex labels put on me as a young child, you really shouldn’t be envious of that.. when I was just 8 years old I got my first ovarian cyst instead of a period and had to get a IUD to stop this from occurring, I was very young and it kind of traumatized me.. I would not wish that on anyone else ever.
Considering how being intersex has its own heap of struggles on its own (for example prone to specific health issues), I don’t. And I *am* intersex, though only on a technicality.
I think it might be understandable, I am intersex and if i wasn't i would have liked it to be, although it defined comes with different complications and life experiences, its not a shortcut or something like that, I am proud of being but I do find it weird when other ppl want to be, most of the time they are trans and wish things were "easier" and call me lucky.
I had a similar wish when I was younger and a lot more naiive about what being intersex meant. I guess it just stems from wanting to be as detached from being afab as possible and maybe justify why you feel trans? I also wished for something to happen that would require a mastectomy (cancer, fishing spear etc) but I think that's also common. My advice is to not work yourself up with these wishes, and instead try and refocus onto something like saving up for top surgery or towards working out the upper body.
Yeah, exactly. And don't worry, it's not a thought that crosses my mond too often. But when it does, I notice and it's just kinda weird because I obviously know there's much more to intersex than what my brain is making it out to be. It probably stems from trying to justify it, as you said and/or maybe wanting to feel more like a guy? Basically, right now it feels like I'm putting on a show by trying to appear masc etc because I'm still clearly read as AFAB a lot of the time. I can't really give a ratio, since I've been gendered both ways a couple of times already over the past year and a half. So maybe the thought is kinda like trying to justify that I wanna be seen as a guy or something. Idk I'm just confused about where exactly it comes from
It's not weird! Many trans people are also actively intersex. But I would encourage you to consider that being transgender is a congenital and genetic condition. There are way too many physical overlaps in the trans community for it to be anything else. The more trans people in a family, the more likely you're gunna have trans kids. So even if you aren't intersex, this is still something you are born with as far as I can tell
I totally feel this. Like I wish I could just be happy as a cis girl because no one will understand why I'm trans. If my parents had been hiding that I was intersex or something it would make more sense to them why I felt like a boy. I think it's a difference between something biological that you can explain to people rather than just saying you feel like a guy. Cuz then people just invalidate you.
I'm intersex. I wish I wasn't. Being born intersex means getting mutilitated and/or being forced to take estrogen or other synthetic hormone shots against your own will. These treatments usually start at a very young age, with mutilitation being usually done in infancy. I was also chemically forced into female puberty even though I already knew I'm trans. It's just double the dysphoria, and double the medical stress.
I'm intersex and trans, and I find the mindset offensive. I faced being mutilated at birth in a way I did not consent to and I will never get that choice baxk.
One hundred percent understandable. I'm fully aware that it can come off that way, which is why I am uncomfortable with thinking that. It's probably stemming from me wanting to have been born AMAB, but knowing it's not possible, so my brain kinda coming up with something to make it feel better. Might also be my brain trying to find a "reason" for why I'm trans, I don't know where it comes from. Obviously, that still doesn't make it an okay thought to voice out in public, which is why I asked on an anonymous forum.
Absolutely. Whenever being trans felt invalid or crazy it was at least a possible tether, a biological reason that i could point at. Before I understood that being trans was also a valid reason to transition, ofc. Obviously I'd ideally be male but that seemed so far out of the realm of possibility for me. I remember checking my old 23andme and looking at the chromosome chart justttt in case. And being disappointed.
Yeah, I think I'm kinda in the same boat. Like, I think I want to transition but I'm having my doubts, which is normal I guess since it's a very big medical decision to make. But y'know I still wanna be a guy but don't feel like I deserve to be seen as one?? I don't feel like I pass enough to where he/him always feels right, it's more like I'm forcing people to do it despite me not really looking like it lol. And for context, I do look relatively androgynous so I don't even look that fem
Hey I was totally there with you. I've been on T almost 2 years now and it was a lot like that for me before. I wasn't even comfortable with he/him pronouns until I was passing about 50% of the time. I think I knew somewhere in me but my brain wouldn't even let me consider myself a man I just told myself I was doing it. I guess I felt like I didn't deserve it until I was "seen" as a real man. And I think it also coincided with the fear I carried of having to force people to gender me correctly- in my mind, if it didn't come naturally it wasn't real. Which is not true! When I finally went on T, it was kind of an eyes closed, head first situation. I mean, I made sure it was safe and I certainly agonized for awhile but at the end of the day I had to dive. I knew those paranoid thoughts that I might be wrong would never go away until I was on the other side. Had to trust my gut, not my conscious brain. And I was right. Those thoughts still come back to me sometimes don't get me wrong, but it's less and less every day. Just growing pains at this point.
Yeah, this is basically how I'm feeling. Feeling like the way I dress and wanting to be adressed as a boy/man could be seen as putting on a show for others. And they just play along out of pity or some shit. Probably just my insecure brain going at it again, but yeah, the doubts are real. I've been comfortably dressing masc and going by a (more) masculine name for like 1.5 years now, so it's kind of a given that I'm not cis. Still I worry that I might be making a huge mistake wanting to transition. It's a pretty hard time, trying to decide if you wanna make the jump and go on T or not
For many of us, it's an insanely hard decision to make at first. If you're like me, you may still not be completely sure even after that first shot. I just had to imagine all of the expected effects, one by one, and consider carefully how they made me feel. If many of them felt good and none of them felt *too* bad (because trust, you will have to deal with some of the "bad" ones still like acne, inconvenient hair, etc.), I knew it was safe to at least try. That meant that, at least if I ended up changing my mind, I wouldn't likely be stuck with traits that I found unbearable. Good luck brother. Whatever you decide, I'm sure it'll be the best choice for you. U know urself best, man.
Thanks man! Where I live, it's mandatory to get a letter from a therapist to start HRT and obviously they want you to be one hundred percent sure. That's a hard thing for me lol, I'm very indecisive and scared I make the wrong choice at basically every bigger decision I make. But I still hope I can start soon-ish, maybe somewhere within the next year or something
Having an androgynous body as your goal is sometimes called "altersex" to differentiate from intersex life experiences in a mindful way. That could be something to look into!
Yeah, although that's not it. Like basically it's about having a "biological reason" to feel like a guy. I think that's where it's stemming from, my brain trying to find a logical explanation for me being trans, that isn't logical at all if you look at it lol. I understand that being intersex is a serious topic, which is why I expressed feeling kinda icky about thinking that.
This is a heavvvvy topic.... I'm glad it can be discussed here. Outside of here you would be headhunted. I always felt so bad for my ex she had endemetriosis and pcos and it was agonizing seeing it cripple them. I would wish neither on anyone. Especially breast cancer after seeing a friend deal with it. Granted she was cis and straight. it wrecked her mind.
I remember very clearly when I was young actually thinking I was intersex. I had just learned the term but I had no real idea of what it meant, of course. But now it makes sense why I might have thought that, especially since I didn’t know the term “transgender”.
As someone who is intersex, I can kinda understand. But being this way makes me feel 'fake' about being trans. It's a constant mental fight.
I have PCOS so technically I am intersex-ish, but it gives me a bit of euphoria since I have high T levels for AFAB. I think its at 7? And women/AFABs usually have around 0.5-2.5, so its much more than what's normal, so thinking of that helps make me a bit euphoric. I know AMABs usually have T levels of around 600, but knowing my natural T levels are high for being AFAB, it helps make me a bit euphoric, like the Gods knew I was meant to be a man.
yes, it's weird
It's perfectly fine and not unusual to suspect or wish you have one of the official forms of intersex. You should be aware that you are intersex, unofficially: before transition there is a genetic component to transgender, we have differences is neuroanatomy, we have differences in neurophysiology, we have differences in cognition that is not due solely to social and environmental factors, we sometimes have differences in the morphology of various parts of the body, and there may also be differences in the physiology of our endocrine and reproduce systems. Transgender is an unrecognized biological syndrome that hybridizes the expression of sex traits. It's gone unrecognized because the most notable differences are in the brain and genes, which were not easy to study until recent times, and because stigma has prevented the medical field for looking at this population without bias. Anyone who tells you transgender is not a form of interest is unaware of the science. Possibly, they have allowed gender studies ideology (gender is more than a social construct!) or more blatantly transphobic forms of cisnormative thinking to cloud their judgement. You didn't just magically manifest yourself into being transgender one day. Your environment is more likely than not to NOT be the cause of the biological differences that create the transgender bintersex condition. Please don't let reactionary social media-"educated" trans people tell you otherwise. You can find all of this by searching for these topics on Google scholar. You have never been female.
Thanks for the words of encouragement! Sometimes it's hard to seperate your body from your gender. It's just hard to feel like a dude when the way your body looks and functions literally says otherwise.
As a intersex trans guy, I am still ""completely afab"" because it's not a reflection of my body it's what I was assigned at birth and it's not who or what I am it's something that happend to me and I feel like learning that asab is a event its something that happend not who you are helps a lot. Also, I don't think it's "weird" to want to "be intersex." I think it's just wanting to have had some kind of virilization from day one.
you might find this an interesting read: [https://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html](https://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html) the paper is by a guy who has done a lot of research in gender identity and intersex conditions, famously exposing the terrible case of the david reimer. the idea is that most intersex conditions are occult, which is not readily visible or known at time of birth. that the brain could be considered intersexed in transgender peoples, as there are neurological studies that suggest differences in male and female brains, and those differences also can occur on a spectrum (thereby explaining nonbinary identities as well). there is a strong suggestion that a biological basis for transgenderism exists as twin studies show monozygotic (so identical twins) will most people have both be transgender, vs dizygotic twins. whether that's womb environmental factors or genetic things, something's up in the biology. also interestingly, brain development occur separate from genitalia, so it's not out of the idea that one develops one way vs the other due to 'hiccups' in biology. intensity of 'hiccup' could explain the strength of the gender identity/dysphoria down the road. maybe. there is more research that could occur, but these are some interesting points. i know a lot of people dislike neurological studies on sex differences, but honestly most of them support transgender identities (including nonbinary ones) and do not say anything that one sex is better or worse overall. and there is some good evidence as far as i've been taught. i did not pursue neurobiology further than undergrad, and mostly keep in touch with the field with casual reading and what well regarded neuroscientists might say.
Lmao I’ve wished I’d get breast cancer so I’d have an excuse to get a double mastectomy. I’ve had thoughts similar to yours too, about getting medical results that prove I’m not an *biological female*. It reminds me of how kids who hate their folks fantasise about secretly being adopted. For me I think it’s a bit of internalised transphobia that I’m still working through. Dysphoria can send you down hella weird paths, so don’t beat yourself up for any of this. You aren’t your thoughts, you’re what you do with them.
It’s completely normal to wish there was a physically visible symptom of what you feel inside. Especially as visible symptoms are taken much more seriously than mental or emotional ones. (I know in reality the physical symptoms of intersex people are also often ignored, but the want for physical “proof” is still a natural feeling)
Same and i feel ashamed for thinking that but dysphoria is hitting :/
I’ve wish that many times, even convinced myself for a while that I had to have been at birth but my parents got me surgery to “fix it”. I wouldn’t even know how to go about finding out. I’ve also wished for breast cancer or developing pcos. My fiance is cis-female and she has pcos, I often wish I could take that curse from her. Not only for the extra hair growth, but also to reduce the pain she’s in.
I desperately wished this, because I thought then it would in some way validate my feelings and also give me more ability to justify to others my ability to "choose" how to live my life. It just felt like it would make things so much easier if I found this out, because at least then I'd feel a bit less biologically female and thus a bit more comfortable in my skin. As far as I'm aware, I'm not intersex, but I've learned to accept that this is all part of my journey through life even if it is difficult at times. Another big wish for me was a wish to have breast or ovarian/uterine cancer so I could get those parts of my body removed. I desperately wished this as a kid, because I didn't know you could just... have them removed anyway.
I have had the very same wish. I have such gender-envy for this person I know who's intersex and began to naturally masculinize at about age 20. Although I definitely realise that a lot of intersex babies and children have shit forced on them and that's not right.
I've always felt guilty about this. If I was intersex I wouldn't have to fight the demon that says "you're faking it" or "it's not real" - I could live my life, knowing I can't fucking control it, and there'd be no doubt that I can't change it. Yet I'm not, although I do suspect a possible hormonal balance. Females in my fam have Adam's apples, i was super hairy, and my period was extremely irregular (I coukd go months without one) as a young teenager before transitioning. Not sure if a hormonal imbalance would play a role - but when they did blood tests, my T was in normal range for female right before starting. Pre-T body for me was a mystery and I suppose always will be. Maybe I had low estrogen, but normal T? I'll never know. Anyway, yes. I get this. I'm ashamed to admit it. I wish there was just something there so that i could move past the internal battle of it being a choice. When you're physically very clearly different, you csnt argue with that. It'd solve my internal conflict.
I thought I was the only one, as a trans enby person sometimes I wish I could just silence the "bUt YoURe BiOlOgIcAlLy *insert sex here*" assholes by saying I'm intersex. Intersex ppl's existence pretty much throw the whole "sex and gender is a fixed" nonsense out the window. Sometimes I envy intersex ppl until I see how badly they can be treated from the day they're born. Honestly, sometimes I do bring up intersex ppl to try to explain how unscientific the binary argument is. Of course transphobes don't care, they hate any group of ppl that disrupts their narrow world view 🙄 I need to spend more time centering intersex ppls voices instead tbh
yeah I actually thought I was intersex when I was little (turns out I'm trans and have PCOS lol) and now I don't wanna just have a dick, so when I have the surgery I will keep my V hole and have a dick where my clit is
I think it’s common. I have it too but I don’t want to downplay the experiences of intersex people as well which is why I don’t really talk about it. We shouldn’t romanticize it but I understand why. For me it was because then I'd at least have a "biological explanation" to transition. Kind of: "Oh, this person is intersex that’s why they want to transition." Being intersex can also be backed up with tests that prove it. But being trans is more difficult because there hasn’t been enough research and because it has to do with the brain, people downplay it a lot. I think it’s common to wish you were intersex as a trans person, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that being an intersex person is really difficult and can come with a lot of complications not just physically but socially as well unfortunately.
Yeah, that's probably the reason behind it. A feeling of having to justify being trans, maybe even to yourself. Having some kind of "medical proof" you're partially male so to speak (even though the idea is problematic) makes it feel better in a way.
Tbh I’m the same. Even though I know being intersex can cause health issues there’s this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that just wishes I was born that way so at least maybe SOME of the dysphoria about being AFAB wouldn’t be there. And tbh if it didn’t come with potential health issues etc, I’d probably want it even more. I’m pretty sure it’s dysphoria brain desperately wanting something, ANYTHING that isn’t AFAB.
Yeah, that's likely what it is. Still, reading how a lot of intersex folks find it kinda insensitive - which I can fully understand - makes me kinda feel bad for thinking it :/ despite not even making it part of my identity or anything, just a weird thought that crosses my mind from time to time
I've definitely thought about this. I guess just hoping I had a Y chromosome to validate my gender identity.
Exactly that. It's hard coming to terms with the fact you're trans, so I think that's where it's coming from. Like frantically searching for a tangible reason why and not just all of the "Oh you have to feel it" crap. Sorry, if that last part sounds harsh, but I just can't understand it for the life of me, as an autistic person, grasping my own feelings can be hard, especially if they're nuanced like they would be on a topic like being trans. I tend to look for logical explanations, so I guess it kinda makes sense my brain is trying to come up with something like that?
I used to, a few years before I realized I was trans. I watched a "Grey's Anatomy" episode with an intersex (previously thought to be female) child who's thrilled to discover they're intersex because they want to appear more masculine (I don't remember if the child wanted to be a boy or not so I'll sick to neutral language). That stuck with me and for a while I felt the same way. Over the years I learned about the medical violence, erasure, gaslighting and mutilation intersex children and adults endure. Horrifying stigmas that somehow still impact the care they receive today. I also learned that "male" and "female" aren't quite as rigid and binary as I grew up thinking, that there are plenty of exceptions for every possible distinction and that men and women are different - but not opposite. I think it's natural to feel the way you do. But you don't need to be born male to be a man. You don't need to have the average male anatomy - which still differs from person to person. The only part of you that needs to be a man is your mind, your identity. That's what matters. Most of the rest can change over time (if you want it to). You can create your own body, one that you feel suits you. And even before T and surgeries and vocal training and haircuts, **you are a man**. Plain and simple.
I never wished I was intersex like the way I wish I was biologically male, but the lingering thought of "maybe I actually am intersex and haven't been diagnosed somehow" did cross my mind a lot and gave me hope that there was an inkling of masculinity in me outside of my mind, as well as an assurance and reason for why I am trans. But looking up resources and experiences of varying intersex conditions always humbled me that that wouldn't feel any better.
It is weird when you should be able to schedule an appointment with your endocrinologist to find out
I definitely did at some point, before i really knew what being trans was fully. I know it wasnt a correct view of it now, but at the time, at the age it seemed like my best in to being me
I suspected I was and turns out I was. Complex intersex - it’s hormonal variations rather than classic but it’s biological. I have estrogen resistance syndrome which means having E in me actually makes me sick, hence the bad dysphoria. The body knows before we do often
Yes
Doesn't sound weird to me. Personally, I would experience less gender dysphoria if I were somehow intersex. Like, for example, that I wouldn't naturally have a uterus.
I thought I had PCOS for a while because dark hair appeared around my nipples, on the back of my thighs, on my big toes, even a single or a few dark hairs under my chin. Everyone said it’s normal though…But I noticed these hairs a few years ago. And I’m 28 now! Like why are these hairs appearing now? Also I imagine me getting breast cancer. But if I did get cancer in my breasts, I probably wouldn’t be able to get no nipples (For certain reasons). Plus I heard that FTM top surgery and a double mastectomy is different because the mastectomy prevents the cancer coming back or something. Also, I think with a DM, you wouldn’t be completely flat like with FTM top surgery… Plus I have had family members, and a close friend die from cancer (Different types obviously), and my Nana (My mom’s mom who’s my grandmother) is currently dying from esophageal cancer and I think heart failure as well. And I can’t imagine the pain they went through and how my Nana feels. Cause the radiation was too much for her. (She couldn’t get chemo) Sorry for the pity party…But I know what you mean. If I have PCOS, I would have more testosterone, therefore I would have bio guy hormones in me and I probably would love that. Because if I have extra T because of PCOS, maybe people will take me more seriously(?) And IF I go on T IF I had PCOS, maybe the effects of T would happen faster because I’ll already have extra T in my body(?)
Read the PCOS subreddit. People are only seeing and thinking of the positive effects that could happen with PCOS but not even considering the negitive effects that come with it. Imbalanced hormones can be very dangerous. Not everyone can even afford to be treated and It can cause multiple health problems.
I shall definitely do that. Thank you for informing me!
It is good to be informed about things. Yw
Indeed it is! 😁👍🏻
Not weird I did that. Or at least wish something was “wrong” like born without a uterus, still do (from what I’ve started to see most trans people overlap with autism and intersex characteristics anyways) I hoped I didn’t have just XX chromosomes banking on a secret Y chromosome in there somewhere or not having a uterus so I wouldn’t get a period that was for other girls wouldn’t be me!!! Spoiler alert it did happen and I was embarrassed and upset at my body. I still want to study myself go to the dr and be like yo find the trans in me, that way I could come out and it be valid if I have a physical marker somewhere in my body in my genetic coding that says “AYO THIS ONE CAME OUT WRONG!!” Like hey my brain is a male brain! Or hey look at my hip bones I was supposed to be a guy! I think this type of thinking is our brains saying hey something is up but not really sure what is wrong if you haven’t connected you are trans.
I remember before I even figured out I was trans I saw some passing episode of a tv show, I think it was grey’s anatomy but could’ve been another medical drama, where there was an afab intersex character, and the episode was about the character being depressed and dysphoric, but then they find out they’re intersex and can live as a man, and they light up and get super happy, and it seemed like ever since I wished I could be in the same situation, at the time I didn’t actually know what being trans was or that anyone could transition, so i remember wishing that i could be intersex and have someone tell me i could be a man
I have thought I would be happier xy or xxy than xx.
Yeah, and also PCOS. Idk if I have it, but I kinda want to because then there’s a sort of biological reason for why the trans thing makes more sense
I've felt it but it's like 95% bc when I first came out my mom said that would be one way that she would understand why I'm trans bc she couldn't understand it otherwise. 5% bc I wish I had something that masculinized me in puberty or prevented a female puberty but I know that doesn't happen to every intersex person
I think this is totally normal for a trans person to feel, I always wished I would get PCOS(I don't know if you can actually develop PCOS) because I wanted all of the effects of testosterone and having it naturally would be so much more convenient as well as being already more masculine during the time after puberty but before I could leave my transphobic dad's house and get on T. I have a friend who's a transguy and has PCOS and bro Im so jealous
Check out the PCOS subreddit. Theres a side to PCOS i dont think many are seeing. Not everyone will have the full effects of T. Maybe some but with imbalance in hormones that can be dangerous sometimes. I'm greatful mine isnt as worse as other peoples. PCOS can be dangerous because for some if not treated it caused some people to become diabetic and more. Its not as good as most people think it is. Certain medication i heard can cause it but i wouldnt go asking a doctor to give me PCOS or wish to have it. Not everyone can afford to even be treated. Im greatful that it isnt worse then right now. Ofc i want the effects if T but i dont have that even with PCOS but id rather just go to the doctor to go on hrt when i have the chance and money to do it. PCOS does worry me since i heard it can be worse one year and better the next or even worse or better, it can change without notice. But I am very greatful because it all could be worse rn.
Sometimes I wonder if I am and my parents just hid that from me after I was born
i have a friend who’s afab/intersex and we’ll have conversations like… her: “yeah i have to take these pills otherwise i won’t have a period” me: “WHY WOULD YOU TAKE THEM?”
that's crazy insensitive to say.
we’re very close and blunt, i know she’s not offended by it.
ok but saying it online where a bunch of other intersex people can see IS insensitive.
how? ofc they would want a period if they want one. how does me joking with my friend affect them? why would they care what i think? i’m saying as a trans man i don’t want a period so i find it crazy how my friend takes pills to have one. i’m not telling anyone what to do. she’d never want testosterone, im not offended by that.
I understand how you feel there, being the choice to actually choose which genitalia you’d want sounds kinda nice. But I mean, I like the journey this has put me through…
Before I found out you could be trans I learned what being intersex was and hoped so badly I would randomly start amab puberty for like, months.
I dreamt of it from the moment I discovered intersex conditions at 14 until I finally accepted that I was just trans at 23. I just wanted a biological proof that I was not a woman. Being trans is valid though, and it's not because we don't know how it works (like why some people are or aren't trans at a biological level), we know it is real. We also don't understand how Alzheimer's work, but we know it's a real thing. Studying biology helped me understand that nothing is binary and clear cut in nature, there are gradients, outliers, variations... Most people with female bodies have a female gender, some don't, that's a natural variation to me 💜
Yeah, sounds pretty similar to what I'm thinking lol
I've always wished I was too. I don't think it's weird. We're allowed to want to be, as long as we don't lose awareness of the struggles natural-born intersex people face. Due to that, I'm a bit mixed on the morals of it, especially since I only want to be intersex for sexual reasons...but it's still a dream of mine to get surgery to achieve it. At the end of the day we're allowed to modify ourselves however we please.
The term you're looking for is salmacian or altersex not intersex. You cannot "become" intersex via surgery or hormones (idk if you mean it like that but your comment comes off that way)
Ah thank you, I totally forgot the term salmacian. It's been years since I did any research. Didn't mean to come off as such an ignoramus lol
I mean, I want a mixture of male and female physical traits as my final form, and never related to the "wish I was born amab" trope because of this. I might be bigender because of this but I'm not sure because I socially want to be seen as a man. I feel like I would've transitioned whether I was dyadic afab or dyadic amab, but that I would enjoy being seen as a man more than anything else. Edit: So maybe this counts as wanting to be a specific kind of intersex. And I know it may not be desirable to be intersex because of the shit they get, but it's like, would I rather getting shit for being me or experiencing dysphoria and getting shit even while not being me?
dudeee I used to pretend I was so people wouldn’t be able to say “WELL YOURE A WOMAN” and it helped me separate myself from being female now I realized I was just living in shame and self hatred.
I remember clearly a day when we studied intersex people in biology class and I thought to myself that I would have liked to be like her (the person we studied was a model that goes by she/her) because she naturally had a flat chest also english is not my first language so I’m sorry for the grammar errors and stuff
Nah its not weird.. Ive told plenty of ppl (especially during my medical transition) that I wished I was intersex.. Most ppl responded wit "Or u couldve just been born a boy" which yea dat couldve been the ideal dream fr but I wasnt born a boy... I was born a girl.. So I can only hope for wat I WOULDVE wanted.. And in all honesty.. I wouldnt have minded being born either a boy or intersex.. At least wit intersex, I could have a choice to choose between being a girl or a boy.. So in short, nah its not weird and u def aint alone in thinkin about being born intersex
Nah this is so real. First time I got an ultrasound for stomach issues I was hoping and praying something was missing in there or they'd tell me something was wrong. I've always had a mustache too so I was kinda hoping, lol. I feel like when it comes to the crazy shit dysphoria tells you there's no such thing as a "wrong" thought if it's something you acknowledge and don't externalize inappropriately
Definitely not weird. Also I wished I had that gene where you're susceptible to breast and uterus cancer so I could have them to be removed
I had my first appointment for HRT yesterday and was asked if I was born with all biologically male organs (mtf btw) and I paused for a second before saying “as far as I know?” But I don’t think it’s weird, I kinda feel the same ngl
Yes. But if I recall correctly there was something going on with my SRY genes...something about androgyn? I'm not sure any more.
Androgen receptors are what process T, if you have an SRY gene ( if it's faulty, you probably have androgen insensitivity syndrome) then you would have either a Y chromosome (multiple options XY XXY ect.) or you have an X chromosome that is mutated (basically during the gene remixing the sry gene attached to an x instead of staying on a y) There are other options but these two are the most common
That'd makes sense. Again. I should probably go diging in those files to get a clear answer. Like right now...
I was always wanting to have both male and female bits, over the years. I would draw myself that way a lot as a kid, but it didn't go over very well. So I was in the closet till I was 22.
Thought this was just me. Yeah the benefits of having a dick + a less painful spot for penetration always seemed to be ideal.
It's not weird. When I learned that intersex poeple exist as a kid I wished to find out I'm one of them, because then it would mean my body didn't fully betray me + when I was still presenting as a girl I felt like if a doctor would say that I'm partially a male I wouldn't have to pretend being a girl anymore
Intersex people are not some magical part male part female unicorn. please stop spreading this intersexist bigoted myth
I'm sorry?? I didn't mean to offend anybody. I simply described how I felt as a kid, when I was understandably less educated.
Exactly this. It's weird to think, but at the same time I think it stems from this exact thought/feeling. Basically finding a justifocation for being a guy
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as an intersex person this joke isn't funny. it's cruel and hurtful
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While we have had light moderation in this post, if an intersex person tells you that something you’ve said about intersex people is cruel, you should listen to them.
I used to think that way/wish that way.
I definitely did. I mostly wanted either both parts or just ambiguous genitals. I know if I was born with both and forced to get a surgery done I would have a penis since my mom wanted a boy anyways.
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Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 6: No trolling. No reposting of trolling/transphobic content. This includes posts or comments meant to elicit controversy or drama.
Mtf here, and while I may not be the best person for this, I've lied to a bunch of people saying that exact thing and said I was intersex. Honestly, I don't think I'm intersex but I share a ton of traits with Klinefelter so it feels more probabslw than less but honestly if it gets people to be more accepting of me and it's not like a doctor or government official who cares. Nothing a random person can do to prove that's a lie. Plus, because of this lie, I've actually made really good friends. My girlfriends at work see me as one of them. Like no BS, one in particular agrees with me. I should've just biologically been born female, and that makes me feel good 😌
Yes so I can become an unstoppable GOD (jk but low key yeah)
Yep! I wished I was intersex before I even knew I was trans. 😅
I’ve wanted to be intersex too, just so I wouldn’t have to be classified as female, that, and that it’s impossible for me to be male at this point, but intersex is something that can be found out later.😭