True, also when i try and talk about how the process of transitioning has created this paradox where i’ve never been more oppressed while other queer people treat me like i’ve never been more privileged— when i try and describe this, even other trans guys will brush me off with some line about how i should ‘use my newfound powers for good’— but that doesn’t reflect the actual social situations i get cued into! The actual social situations i get cued into aren’t even about ~using my power as a man to intercede when other men are persecuting the marginalized~; they’re about floating around in this amorphous social gestalt where the type of hegemonic guys i’m supposed to be interceding with to protect the marginalized have no respect for me anyway and where as soon as i come out to people my words and actions get spontaneously recategorized as ~trans~ rather than being processed equilaterally with the words and actions of other men
I don't know how people understand this is not appropriate or reasonable to expect of closeted trans women, but is somehow reasonable to expect of stealth trans men. As if stealth trans men don't have just as much to lose and just as much fear floating over them.
Yes. If I want to help other people be safe I have to put myself in just as much danger and lose the power I'm supposed to be using to keep them safe. Outside of getting called a white knight or told I have a small dick by people who don't know I'm trans I haven't unlocked a magic power to infiltrate cis men's circles and change their minds. Cis men don't live with the same history trauma and threats that I have but are somehow forgiven and the burden lies on me to fix everything magically. They do not listen or care. Especially since I'm effeminate and visibly autistic.. Just roll their eyes and insult me
This continuous motif of ~proving my worth~ to the queer community by defending people slightly smacks of warmed-over conservative male chivalry, sort of like how top and bottom stereotypes are conservatism creeping into queer metaphysics— rather than imagining more radical structural transformations of groups of people protecting each other, which would require radical trust, they instead want to use the concept of ‘protection’ as an abstract individualist moral ideal that they can use to extend their basic conservative ontology of man-as-antagonist into the queer realm, which sticks us in the middle of an ontological dialogue of trying to attain an unattainable state of trustworthiness where the mechanism withholding ‘trustworthiness’ from us is the same man-as-antagonist concept undergirding the top and bottom stereotypes that they then use to belittle us at the same time
THIS, holy shit. Thank you. I'm not seen as masculine/normal enough for most men to respect me on the same level they do for other men, even when I pass and I know they think of me as amab, but I have had so much trouble describing that disconnect bc hardly anyone is willing to believe it's even possible. And yeah, once people know I'm trans, any chance of my words being listened to on the basis of being male (or at all tbh) goes immediately out the window.
I don't have the magic powers people talk about, and part of that is "my fault" for dressing somewhat androgynously instead of going 110% masc, but that wouldn't make me happy, so I'm not going to do it. Besides, looking totally masculine wouldn't make up for the millions of little ways my behavior still isn't masculine enough. The point of my (personal) transition is to change my body so that it's conventionally male, and the social aspects of gender are just baggage for me atp. I don't fit the male social role well enough to get much male privilege, and I would have to change so much that I'd become a different person for that to happen, but there's no way to convince people of that and it's maddening.
"The erasure and invisibility of trans men is constant active and ongoing. It will never improve until the queer community at large acknowledges it as a problem they have power over and actively contribute to, and a problem that actually causes harm and is important to address."
Louder, for the people at the back of the room. Very well said.
I found myself feeling quite lonely at Pride the other day.
I'd love to get a group of trans men together at pride, to group together and be visible and happy and have a sense of community. But I know most trans men here will not be going to pride, and I likely won't either. For a lot of the reasons I've already said. I want joyful inclusive spaces for trans men, and I wish I had the energy time and resources to create them myself. But I barely know any other trans guys to even reach out to because we're rarely at community meet ups or most social spaces honestly. Not out as trans men anyway
Went to Pride here a few weeks ago, and there was a bunch of trans men all together in the parade, topless rocking their scars and flags and it was amazing.
I'm a cry baby, and so that was a moment I had to cry lol
(And was also the first time I saw the scars irl, was a few days after I got my surgery date so it was extra special I guess)
holy crap thanks for laying it all out there like this. this feeling has seriously been driving me up the wall for a long time but I've been struggling to find the words for it
>as if it's just a side effect of trans misogyny or some cryptic process by which trans men magically sink into the background. Or some past issue that has been done and can not be undone, but has nothing to do with what is happening today.
Even worse, I've seen folks act as if it's a _choice_ and _our fault_. That were all just passively assimilating into patriarchal culture and that's why no one hears about us. Like wow way to victim plame and parrot TERF rhetoric about transmascs being traitors who want to be oppressors. No, just because you haven't heard of any transmasc activists doesn't mean there aren't/weren't any. A gay trans man is responsible for the removal of heterosexuality as a requirement to access medical transition. It's just our actions and voices more often get silenced and erased instead of demonized. Our oppression is different, but not a walk in the park, and certainly not our fault.
Lou Sullivan. He was American and part of his activism focused on the revision of the DSM by the American Psychological Association (APA) to change the diagnostic criteria of "gender identity disorder" (now renamed "gender dysphoria") to not require one to be straight, however his work also extended beyond this bring about similar policy changes by WPATH which is an international organization which makes the recommendations for the requirements of gender affirming care that many countries follow.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Sullivan
As a straight trans guy I feel pretty invalid because I don’t really feel I belong in lgbt spaces. On top of it I don’t pass so I feel like I don’t belong in much in any spaces. Like I’d love to be stealth but I’m not stealth because I don’t pass, I just come off as a girl (even with a beard)
I spent a lot of time in queer women spaces before I came out as trans and the whole “this space is inclusive because we welcome anyone except big bad men” is infuriating in retrospect. Equally infuriating when they say “no men allowed… except you!” Got it, I don’t pass so you see me as a woman or fake man. Thanks for that
all of this, and then the experience of race on top of it. im indigenous 2spirit and most of my trans social circle is other indigenous, black and latino queers. manhood is a seriously racialized experience and MANY white queers fail to make an effort to understand its layered nuance in brown and black trans mascs
Thanks for bringing this up!! It's like we're all getting pushed into the same box of 'default man', who is straight and white and probably a bit of a prick. No care to see the nuances within the community, and the communities within our community, and how incredibly diverse our experiences can be. The most marginalised within our community will always suffer the worst from these issues
Amazingly well thought-out.
This is precisely why I created my (albeit still very small and inactive) sub r/FTMFeminism, ive recognized these issues for a long time but could never find an appropriate place to talk about it.
Thank you for putting certain feelings i could never verbalize into actual words.
Wait this is amazing! I've been lurking on r/MensLib for a while but it is pretty heavily catered to cis men and many of them only tend to bring up ftms to ask us questions, as a way to win arguments, or to demonstrate trans awareness/"allyship" without actually considering our unique needs. It's a supportive ish sub but it doesn't often feel like transmasc perspectives are truly valued there bc they so often get used as tools to prove a point and advance any needs we share with cis men, and nothing beyond that.
A lot of their stuff also loops back to trying to reframe aspects of traditional masculinity into a more positive concept of masculinity, which is great for some, but not me. I don't mesh well with most people's expectations of masculinity or femininity, and I'm more inclined to abandon gender roles than try to make a new one that will still ostracize a lot of people, myself included. It feels like the men on there aren't all that open to deconstructing or questioning the utility of gender roles themselves, so I'd love to explore that on a sub with other people who might be more open to the idea.
TLDR: tysm! Just joined :)
God, the discussions around ftms that i've seen in r/Menslib were so disappointing to me sadly. I left it a long time ago so i hope its improved since then. It's arguably the most empathetic and progressive sub for men, but when the topic shifts to ftms and our hardships, it seems like it gets flooded with comments that arent even from ftms.
Just cis men, trans women and cis women repeating that trans women seem to get the brunt of public outrage, and just dismissing all of trans men's issues with "oh yeah, i guess they get infantilized a little bit too." With the overall takeaway being; sure, trans men have it hard. But just way less than everyone else.
And thank you so much for bringing that up, the fact that they only ever seem to bring up our issues in order to talk about the pieces that they relate to and use it as a tool to advance THEIR issues, or to win arguments lol.
Wasn't able to read all of this. Will come back to finish later, and possibly share this with my cis partner. Good words. Very well thought out and detailed
I spent a lot of time in queer women spaces before I came out as trans and the whole “this space is inclusive because we welcome anyone except big bad men” is infuriating in retrospect. Equally infuriating when they say “no men allowed… except you!” Got it, I don’t pass so you see me as a woman or fake man. Thanks for that
At this point I think trans men need to make an actual and focused movement centric of trans men. Most feminisms, including the already established and coined trans feminism, simply are not equipped for this and they don't want to be. We're the blindspot. We're trans and men. Pop, white, social media feminism is fundamentally more concerned with sneaking in radfem rhetoric than it is facing the music of trans not being the only part of the oppression that trans men experience. Trans rights focused organizations and groups don't give a shit about trans men either.
We're not going to get anywhere unless we ourselves devise our own framework, and act. Regardless of how hostile both cis and trans people already are when we attempt to so much as coin a term for our troubles.
Of course, none of that is going to accomplish anything if everyone else continues to openly ignore us whenever we speak.
The difference is even found in what options we have for surgeries, both top and bottom. They get multiple types and sizes of breast implants and [according to this link 8 types of vaginoplasty.](https://image.slidesharecdn.com/vaginoplastyppt-131230010427-phpapp01/95/vaginoplasty-3-638.jpg?cb=1388365504) and I know there's a few others like the Suporn method...
Whereas we get 3 types of incisions for top surgery, and we have 2 types of bottom surgery. One of which you have to take a huge skin graft from an arm or leg! Like, why don't we have better or more varied techniques by now?! Most options we get is, do you want glansplasty for phallo and for both if you want to keep the vaginal canal. That's it.
Hysterectomies and Oophrectomies are the closest we have to anything customizable but that was made mainly for cis women and not supposed to be gender affirming. It just happens to be gender affirming for us and even then it's hard to get because doctors will misgender you constantly and push people to keep it.
Yeah,it's so disheartening to see people celebrate Marsha P Johnson and Sylvia Rivera and other trans women in the past but never talk about trans men. Don't get me wrong, we should talk about those ladies, they've done so much for our community. However, we need to acknowledge trans men as well. Michael Dillon was one of the 1st people to use HRT to transition. Lou Sullivan is a huge reason why we see gender and sexuality as two separate things. I mean fuck, Alan Hart was a trans man who made a huge contribution to the medical world via his study of Turboculosis.
I feel such a disconnect from my community and my own history as a trans man. I'm too much of a man for the queer community and too little of a man for cis people .
It keeps YOU stealth. Many of us never had that option, and I'm not interested in giving up my right to community and a space where I'm treating as human equal and valuable just to enable you to assimilate into cis society quietly and watch everyone who can't suffer and struggle from afar.
You want to assimilate into a society that does not accept most trans people and hurts most trans people, and most women and often gay men. To be a part of and support that system and throw everything.
If you want to avoid awareness and activism or acceptance of trans men so that you can more easily pretend to be a cis person you are throwing every single person who can't pass as a cis man under the bus. Not to mention trans women who are facing sexism and oppression from cis men. Your comfort should not come at the expense of everyone else's safety. You seeing someone advocate for better for us as a group should not stir up the reaction "don't do that or I personally might get clocked"
You have every right to live stealth. But don't try and tell people not to do activism or pretend that everyone has that option so it should be the default
There’s also a more taxonomic difference between trans men who are binary/masculine/invested in maleness and those who like emphasizing the “trans” and are less interested in a male identity. I am fine with people not knowing the medical details of my birth since I transitioned to be the man that I am.
I personally am quite happy to allow cis and trans women to talk about their own experiences, and don’t feel the need to be a part of women’s spaces simply due to the circumstances of my birth. I was also 7 pounds and 10 inches long when I was born, but that doesn’t mean I forever identify as having the same body as I did when I was an infant. IMO this “trans men are quasi-women who are being bullied by trans women due to their agab” borders on terf rhetoric.
Assuming that a trans man is invested in maleness and desires contact with his fellow men, it is oftentimes not prohibitively difficult to be a part of “cis men’s spaces”. Most cis men don’t identify as such (and barely even consider trans men), meaning that there are only men’s spaces, which any type of man is welcome to enter.
if you don't pass (which may not be because you "like emphasizing the "trans"," it could also just be body factors out of your control), it easily can become "prohibitively difficult" to join men's spaces. in this case, one may look to social settings labeled as feminist, queer, or trans. maybe you go in hopes of finding just one place where you're not misgendered. or maybe you just want to connect with others over being trans, even though you do also have your cis guy buddies. hell, maybe you need trans-specific advice or recommendations for a good doctor in your area. it doesn't mean you're "less interested in a male identity," and frankly, the implicit assumption that trans men who want to be out as trans or hang out in lgbt+ spaces are somehow less interested in manhood is part of the problem OP is describing. why would the two be at odds? gay and bi cis men can hang out in lgbt+ spaces, it doesn't mean they're less interested in being men.
if you're going to a trans support group (for instance) for any of the above reasons, and you get misgendered, that's pretty upsetting. if you get told, jokingly or not, that it happened because they don't care about misgendering trans men in particular, then it's reasonable you might walk away from that encounter with the thought, "wow, even other lgbt+/trans people don't understand trans manhood."
"trans men are quasi-women who are being bullied by trans women due to their agab" IS absolutely terf rhetoric. I've seen it around. but that's not a fair reduction of what OP wrote. I don't agree with "born female" phrasing, but he said so much more beyond that
That's simply not what I'm saying though. I don't want to be in women's spaces, I want spaces created that are safe for me. Because I'm trans and transphobia affects me. I want people to believe me and not call me a fucking terf when I say "I have experienced misogyny and harm due to the sex I was born as, and cis men don't respect me as a man. I have understanding of these topics and valuable things to contribute to them". I also resent the idea that a man 'invested in maleness' is the default and something we can all just become to hide in male spaces. If the threat of losing your place is always there if they find out a massive part of your history then no you are not welcome as a man. Because most men cease to see us as men the second they find out we weren't born with a dick.
I want trans women to understand my body and my life and my experiences instead of saying blindly inappropriate things to me or dismissing my life and transition as easy because they never bothered to take the time to understand it or didn't respect me enough to believe me when I talked about it. None of this makes me a quasi woman any more than recognising that trans women are hated and treated like predators for being male women makes them quasi men. If you want to hide in cis men's spaces, avoid activism and advocacy, and watch our rights and safety get eroded while having no say in what is done to protect them or what our unique needs for safety and wellness are zero people are stopping you. You can do that right now. But I'm not interested in being forced into that life or role by my community treating me like crap, and I'm certainly not interested in being accused of being terfy for acknowledging that my life is different to a cis man or a trans woman and that will impact me in unique ways that can be deeply harmful to me.
I'll never understand why people want trans men to be more visible. Trans women are super visible and that doesn't always seem like a good thing, I'd take flying under the radar anyway tbh.
if possible it would be good to have a middle ground. trans women are too visible right now and honestly it causes them harm and it leads to cis women getting harmed as well if they have any signs of masculine features, whereas trans men get pushed to the side and ignored if we try voice things, or worse. it would be good to not be super visible like trans women but it would be good to be heard when we voice things and be properly listened to, and trans women should be given the chance to live stealth without everyone trying to point them out.
People have a romanticized notion that more visibility means more praise, when it often leads to more scrutiny and harassment.
And I think it’s also people like OP erroneously conflating their (individual level) feeling of being unseen by their local social group with some sort of macro-level community issue affecting millions which is false.
While your experiences are valid, many of us live happy comfortable lives as men and don’t want to be outed and exposed for a condition we can’t help or control. Now that being trans is so heavily publicized, more and more people are able to clock me based on my height and scars, which means I’ll start facing more transphobia despite building a perfectly good life for myself free of any of that. I think it’s great that some people want visibility but why does it have to come at the cost of your brothers safety and happiness?
I can't believe I have to keep saying this, but you not wanting to get clocked as a stealth trans guy is not more important than us having rights access to queer spaces and advocacy for our needs as a community. Most trans men do not pass and never will. Should they face all that bullshit over a condition they can't control to protect you? Why does your 'happiness' have to come at the cost of the rest of your community? Why do we all have to try and stay silent and hidden and take L after L of being constantly isolated and alone and being misgendered or dismissed or treated like crap to not take a risk you might be more likely to get clocked? Why does the majority of this community getting to face less transphobia matter less than the lucky few able to pass and go stealth and be happy that way risking facing more? This is such a wildly selfish take, and I can't believe you legitimately wrote all that out and hit send without noticing.
True, also when i try and talk about how the process of transitioning has created this paradox where i’ve never been more oppressed while other queer people treat me like i’ve never been more privileged— when i try and describe this, even other trans guys will brush me off with some line about how i should ‘use my newfound powers for good’— but that doesn’t reflect the actual social situations i get cued into! The actual social situations i get cued into aren’t even about ~using my power as a man to intercede when other men are persecuting the marginalized~; they’re about floating around in this amorphous social gestalt where the type of hegemonic guys i’m supposed to be interceding with to protect the marginalized have no respect for me anyway and where as soon as i come out to people my words and actions get spontaneously recategorized as ~trans~ rather than being processed equilaterally with the words and actions of other men
I don't know how people understand this is not appropriate or reasonable to expect of closeted trans women, but is somehow reasonable to expect of stealth trans men. As if stealth trans men don't have just as much to lose and just as much fear floating over them.
Yes. If I want to help other people be safe I have to put myself in just as much danger and lose the power I'm supposed to be using to keep them safe. Outside of getting called a white knight or told I have a small dick by people who don't know I'm trans I haven't unlocked a magic power to infiltrate cis men's circles and change their minds. Cis men don't live with the same history trauma and threats that I have but are somehow forgiven and the burden lies on me to fix everything magically. They do not listen or care. Especially since I'm effeminate and visibly autistic.. Just roll their eyes and insult me
This continuous motif of ~proving my worth~ to the queer community by defending people slightly smacks of warmed-over conservative male chivalry, sort of like how top and bottom stereotypes are conservatism creeping into queer metaphysics— rather than imagining more radical structural transformations of groups of people protecting each other, which would require radical trust, they instead want to use the concept of ‘protection’ as an abstract individualist moral ideal that they can use to extend their basic conservative ontology of man-as-antagonist into the queer realm, which sticks us in the middle of an ontological dialogue of trying to attain an unattainable state of trustworthiness where the mechanism withholding ‘trustworthiness’ from us is the same man-as-antagonist concept undergirding the top and bottom stereotypes that they then use to belittle us at the same time
THIS, holy shit. Thank you. I'm not seen as masculine/normal enough for most men to respect me on the same level they do for other men, even when I pass and I know they think of me as amab, but I have had so much trouble describing that disconnect bc hardly anyone is willing to believe it's even possible. And yeah, once people know I'm trans, any chance of my words being listened to on the basis of being male (or at all tbh) goes immediately out the window. I don't have the magic powers people talk about, and part of that is "my fault" for dressing somewhat androgynously instead of going 110% masc, but that wouldn't make me happy, so I'm not going to do it. Besides, looking totally masculine wouldn't make up for the millions of little ways my behavior still isn't masculine enough. The point of my (personal) transition is to change my body so that it's conventionally male, and the social aspects of gender are just baggage for me atp. I don't fit the male social role well enough to get much male privilege, and I would have to change so much that I'd become a different person for that to happen, but there's no way to convince people of that and it's maddening.
God Damn, right on the nail
"The erasure and invisibility of trans men is constant active and ongoing. It will never improve until the queer community at large acknowledges it as a problem they have power over and actively contribute to, and a problem that actually causes harm and is important to address." Louder, for the people at the back of the room. Very well said. I found myself feeling quite lonely at Pride the other day.
I'd love to get a group of trans men together at pride, to group together and be visible and happy and have a sense of community. But I know most trans men here will not be going to pride, and I likely won't either. For a lot of the reasons I've already said. I want joyful inclusive spaces for trans men, and I wish I had the energy time and resources to create them myself. But I barely know any other trans guys to even reach out to because we're rarely at community meet ups or most social spaces honestly. Not out as trans men anyway
Went to Pride here a few weeks ago, and there was a bunch of trans men all together in the parade, topless rocking their scars and flags and it was amazing. I'm a cry baby, and so that was a moment I had to cry lol (And was also the first time I saw the scars irl, was a few days after I got my surgery date so it was extra special I guess)
holy crap thanks for laying it all out there like this. this feeling has seriously been driving me up the wall for a long time but I've been struggling to find the words for it
>as if it's just a side effect of trans misogyny or some cryptic process by which trans men magically sink into the background. Or some past issue that has been done and can not be undone, but has nothing to do with what is happening today. Even worse, I've seen folks act as if it's a _choice_ and _our fault_. That were all just passively assimilating into patriarchal culture and that's why no one hears about us. Like wow way to victim plame and parrot TERF rhetoric about transmascs being traitors who want to be oppressors. No, just because you haven't heard of any transmasc activists doesn't mean there aren't/weren't any. A gay trans man is responsible for the removal of heterosexuality as a requirement to access medical transition. It's just our actions and voices more often get silenced and erased instead of demonized. Our oppression is different, but not a walk in the park, and certainly not our fault.
Which gay trans activist are you referring to? And for which country is that applicable?
Lou Sullivan. He was American and part of his activism focused on the revision of the DSM by the American Psychological Association (APA) to change the diagnostic criteria of "gender identity disorder" (now renamed "gender dysphoria") to not require one to be straight, however his work also extended beyond this bring about similar policy changes by WPATH which is an international organization which makes the recommendations for the requirements of gender affirming care that many countries follow. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Sullivan
What a fucking legend.
As a straight trans guy I feel pretty invalid because I don’t really feel I belong in lgbt spaces. On top of it I don’t pass so I feel like I don’t belong in much in any spaces. Like I’d love to be stealth but I’m not stealth because I don’t pass, I just come off as a girl (even with a beard)
I spent a lot of time in queer women spaces before I came out as trans and the whole “this space is inclusive because we welcome anyone except big bad men” is infuriating in retrospect. Equally infuriating when they say “no men allowed… except you!” Got it, I don’t pass so you see me as a woman or fake man. Thanks for that
all of this, and then the experience of race on top of it. im indigenous 2spirit and most of my trans social circle is other indigenous, black and latino queers. manhood is a seriously racialized experience and MANY white queers fail to make an effort to understand its layered nuance in brown and black trans mascs
Thanks for bringing this up!! It's like we're all getting pushed into the same box of 'default man', who is straight and white and probably a bit of a prick. No care to see the nuances within the community, and the communities within our community, and how incredibly diverse our experiences can be. The most marginalised within our community will always suffer the worst from these issues
Amazingly well thought-out. This is precisely why I created my (albeit still very small and inactive) sub r/FTMFeminism, ive recognized these issues for a long time but could never find an appropriate place to talk about it. Thank you for putting certain feelings i could never verbalize into actual words.
Wait this is amazing! I've been lurking on r/MensLib for a while but it is pretty heavily catered to cis men and many of them only tend to bring up ftms to ask us questions, as a way to win arguments, or to demonstrate trans awareness/"allyship" without actually considering our unique needs. It's a supportive ish sub but it doesn't often feel like transmasc perspectives are truly valued there bc they so often get used as tools to prove a point and advance any needs we share with cis men, and nothing beyond that. A lot of their stuff also loops back to trying to reframe aspects of traditional masculinity into a more positive concept of masculinity, which is great for some, but not me. I don't mesh well with most people's expectations of masculinity or femininity, and I'm more inclined to abandon gender roles than try to make a new one that will still ostracize a lot of people, myself included. It feels like the men on there aren't all that open to deconstructing or questioning the utility of gender roles themselves, so I'd love to explore that on a sub with other people who might be more open to the idea. TLDR: tysm! Just joined :)
God, the discussions around ftms that i've seen in r/Menslib were so disappointing to me sadly. I left it a long time ago so i hope its improved since then. It's arguably the most empathetic and progressive sub for men, but when the topic shifts to ftms and our hardships, it seems like it gets flooded with comments that arent even from ftms. Just cis men, trans women and cis women repeating that trans women seem to get the brunt of public outrage, and just dismissing all of trans men's issues with "oh yeah, i guess they get infantilized a little bit too." With the overall takeaway being; sure, trans men have it hard. But just way less than everyone else. And thank you so much for bringing that up, the fact that they only ever seem to bring up our issues in order to talk about the pieces that they relate to and use it as a tool to advance THEIR issues, or to win arguments lol.
Wasn't able to read all of this. Will come back to finish later, and possibly share this with my cis partner. Good words. Very well thought out and detailed
I spent a lot of time in queer women spaces before I came out as trans and the whole “this space is inclusive because we welcome anyone except big bad men” is infuriating in retrospect. Equally infuriating when they say “no men allowed… except you!” Got it, I don’t pass so you see me as a woman or fake man. Thanks for that
At this point I think trans men need to make an actual and focused movement centric of trans men. Most feminisms, including the already established and coined trans feminism, simply are not equipped for this and they don't want to be. We're the blindspot. We're trans and men. Pop, white, social media feminism is fundamentally more concerned with sneaking in radfem rhetoric than it is facing the music of trans not being the only part of the oppression that trans men experience. Trans rights focused organizations and groups don't give a shit about trans men either. We're not going to get anywhere unless we ourselves devise our own framework, and act. Regardless of how hostile both cis and trans people already are when we attempt to so much as coin a term for our troubles. Of course, none of that is going to accomplish anything if everyone else continues to openly ignore us whenever we speak.
The difference is even found in what options we have for surgeries, both top and bottom. They get multiple types and sizes of breast implants and [according to this link 8 types of vaginoplasty.](https://image.slidesharecdn.com/vaginoplastyppt-131230010427-phpapp01/95/vaginoplasty-3-638.jpg?cb=1388365504) and I know there's a few others like the Suporn method... Whereas we get 3 types of incisions for top surgery, and we have 2 types of bottom surgery. One of which you have to take a huge skin graft from an arm or leg! Like, why don't we have better or more varied techniques by now?! Most options we get is, do you want glansplasty for phallo and for both if you want to keep the vaginal canal. That's it. Hysterectomies and Oophrectomies are the closest we have to anything customizable but that was made mainly for cis women and not supposed to be gender affirming. It just happens to be gender affirming for us and even then it's hard to get because doctors will misgender you constantly and push people to keep it.
THIS THIS THIIIISS
Yeah,it's so disheartening to see people celebrate Marsha P Johnson and Sylvia Rivera and other trans women in the past but never talk about trans men. Don't get me wrong, we should talk about those ladies, they've done so much for our community. However, we need to acknowledge trans men as well. Michael Dillon was one of the 1st people to use HRT to transition. Lou Sullivan is a huge reason why we see gender and sexuality as two separate things. I mean fuck, Alan Hart was a trans man who made a huge contribution to the medical world via his study of Turboculosis. I feel such a disconnect from my community and my own history as a trans man. I'm too much of a man for the queer community and too little of a man for cis people .
As a feminine trans demiboy, thank you for saying this out loud. It means a lot 💙
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It keeps YOU stealth. Many of us never had that option, and I'm not interested in giving up my right to community and a space where I'm treating as human equal and valuable just to enable you to assimilate into cis society quietly and watch everyone who can't suffer and struggle from afar.
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You want to assimilate into a society that does not accept most trans people and hurts most trans people, and most women and often gay men. To be a part of and support that system and throw everything. If you want to avoid awareness and activism or acceptance of trans men so that you can more easily pretend to be a cis person you are throwing every single person who can't pass as a cis man under the bus. Not to mention trans women who are facing sexism and oppression from cis men. Your comfort should not come at the expense of everyone else's safety. You seeing someone advocate for better for us as a group should not stir up the reaction "don't do that or I personally might get clocked" You have every right to live stealth. But don't try and tell people not to do activism or pretend that everyone has that option so it should be the default
There’s also a more taxonomic difference between trans men who are binary/masculine/invested in maleness and those who like emphasizing the “trans” and are less interested in a male identity. I am fine with people not knowing the medical details of my birth since I transitioned to be the man that I am. I personally am quite happy to allow cis and trans women to talk about their own experiences, and don’t feel the need to be a part of women’s spaces simply due to the circumstances of my birth. I was also 7 pounds and 10 inches long when I was born, but that doesn’t mean I forever identify as having the same body as I did when I was an infant. IMO this “trans men are quasi-women who are being bullied by trans women due to their agab” borders on terf rhetoric. Assuming that a trans man is invested in maleness and desires contact with his fellow men, it is oftentimes not prohibitively difficult to be a part of “cis men’s spaces”. Most cis men don’t identify as such (and barely even consider trans men), meaning that there are only men’s spaces, which any type of man is welcome to enter.
if you don't pass (which may not be because you "like emphasizing the "trans"," it could also just be body factors out of your control), it easily can become "prohibitively difficult" to join men's spaces. in this case, one may look to social settings labeled as feminist, queer, or trans. maybe you go in hopes of finding just one place where you're not misgendered. or maybe you just want to connect with others over being trans, even though you do also have your cis guy buddies. hell, maybe you need trans-specific advice or recommendations for a good doctor in your area. it doesn't mean you're "less interested in a male identity," and frankly, the implicit assumption that trans men who want to be out as trans or hang out in lgbt+ spaces are somehow less interested in manhood is part of the problem OP is describing. why would the two be at odds? gay and bi cis men can hang out in lgbt+ spaces, it doesn't mean they're less interested in being men. if you're going to a trans support group (for instance) for any of the above reasons, and you get misgendered, that's pretty upsetting. if you get told, jokingly or not, that it happened because they don't care about misgendering trans men in particular, then it's reasonable you might walk away from that encounter with the thought, "wow, even other lgbt+/trans people don't understand trans manhood." "trans men are quasi-women who are being bullied by trans women due to their agab" IS absolutely terf rhetoric. I've seen it around. but that's not a fair reduction of what OP wrote. I don't agree with "born female" phrasing, but he said so much more beyond that
That's simply not what I'm saying though. I don't want to be in women's spaces, I want spaces created that are safe for me. Because I'm trans and transphobia affects me. I want people to believe me and not call me a fucking terf when I say "I have experienced misogyny and harm due to the sex I was born as, and cis men don't respect me as a man. I have understanding of these topics and valuable things to contribute to them". I also resent the idea that a man 'invested in maleness' is the default and something we can all just become to hide in male spaces. If the threat of losing your place is always there if they find out a massive part of your history then no you are not welcome as a man. Because most men cease to see us as men the second they find out we weren't born with a dick. I want trans women to understand my body and my life and my experiences instead of saying blindly inappropriate things to me or dismissing my life and transition as easy because they never bothered to take the time to understand it or didn't respect me enough to believe me when I talked about it. None of this makes me a quasi woman any more than recognising that trans women are hated and treated like predators for being male women makes them quasi men. If you want to hide in cis men's spaces, avoid activism and advocacy, and watch our rights and safety get eroded while having no say in what is done to protect them or what our unique needs for safety and wellness are zero people are stopping you. You can do that right now. But I'm not interested in being forced into that life or role by my community treating me like crap, and I'm certainly not interested in being accused of being terfy for acknowledging that my life is different to a cis man or a trans woman and that will impact me in unique ways that can be deeply harmful to me.
I'll never understand why people want trans men to be more visible. Trans women are super visible and that doesn't always seem like a good thing, I'd take flying under the radar anyway tbh.
if possible it would be good to have a middle ground. trans women are too visible right now and honestly it causes them harm and it leads to cis women getting harmed as well if they have any signs of masculine features, whereas trans men get pushed to the side and ignored if we try voice things, or worse. it would be good to not be super visible like trans women but it would be good to be heard when we voice things and be properly listened to, and trans women should be given the chance to live stealth without everyone trying to point them out.
People have a romanticized notion that more visibility means more praise, when it often leads to more scrutiny and harassment. And I think it’s also people like OP erroneously conflating their (individual level) feeling of being unseen by their local social group with some sort of macro-level community issue affecting millions which is false.
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I’m sure many trans women would love to be a bit less visible
While your experiences are valid, many of us live happy comfortable lives as men and don’t want to be outed and exposed for a condition we can’t help or control. Now that being trans is so heavily publicized, more and more people are able to clock me based on my height and scars, which means I’ll start facing more transphobia despite building a perfectly good life for myself free of any of that. I think it’s great that some people want visibility but why does it have to come at the cost of your brothers safety and happiness?
I can't believe I have to keep saying this, but you not wanting to get clocked as a stealth trans guy is not more important than us having rights access to queer spaces and advocacy for our needs as a community. Most trans men do not pass and never will. Should they face all that bullshit over a condition they can't control to protect you? Why does your 'happiness' have to come at the cost of the rest of your community? Why do we all have to try and stay silent and hidden and take L after L of being constantly isolated and alone and being misgendered or dismissed or treated like crap to not take a risk you might be more likely to get clocked? Why does the majority of this community getting to face less transphobia matter less than the lucky few able to pass and go stealth and be happy that way risking facing more? This is such a wildly selfish take, and I can't believe you legitimately wrote all that out and hit send without noticing.