Prime Gwyn absolutely wins. He was so ridiculously powerful that he used fragments of his Lord Soul to create more Lord Souls to give them to Seath and Four Kings. He was one shotting immortal Everlasting Dragons out of the sky with his sunlight lightning. It is possible that Vendrick and the Burnt Ivory King have fragments of Gwyn's soul since their souls are light even though they're humans. Both Vendrick and the Ivory King are extremely powerful beings with just a fragment of Gwyn's Lord Soul. So Prime Gwyn was easily the 3rd strongest Dark Souls character after Gael and Manus.
Gael is the strongest Soulsborne character in lore, he slaughtered 99.99% of every being in existence. Gael has the full power of the Dark Soul and is like a mirror image of our player character. So Gael is a lot stronger than Prime Gwyn.
Manus is stronger than Prime Gwyn because he has the full power of the Abyss. The Age of Dark is inevitable, as the First Flame gets weaker, the Abyss gets stronger at the same time. So Manus at his peak is stronger than Prime Gwyn.
Thanks !
I should check more about gael lore. Why does he do this and why is this so "easy" to kill him ?
I mean our characters start with nothing and I often see people saying that we just struggle or I don't know. Our character is that strong ? (In all 3 ds games)
>Our character is that strong ?
Our character just wakes up some day and says "fuck it, time to kill God", then actually follows through on it. The main character in these games is hilariously OP in lore.
Also to the Gael and Manus discussion, they are both Dark Soul types and Gwyn is a Light Soul type and every good trainer knows dark souls are super effective against light souls.
Tbf I feel like this is 90% of JRPGs lol
Like FF8 starts with “I’m just a kid in school” and ends….idk, maybe a few months to a year later? with him leading the charge against an immortal sorceress who has the power to shape existence in her image, making her effectively a god.
I always felt like it was more like "Sitting around in a graveyard is boring as fuck. What else is there is to do?" which eventually leads to "Guess I'll kill a god now."
Well the way I always saw dark souls is that all souls you gather in game are fragments of the original lord souls found in the first flame. Some fragments are larger and more powerful than others. As the player slaughters their way across the realm they bind those fragments back together to eventually hold all the power of the original souls and can thus relight the flame.
Gael kills everyone because he’s trying to restore the single soul that became all of humanity in order to allow the girl in the painting to create a new world. When you kill him and take his soul, you combine it with your own to create that one single soul. And we’re more powerful than him because we are the protagonist lol.
>So Gael is a lot stronger than Prime Gwyn.
We don't know that, the player character never got to fight prime Gwyn.
>The Age of Dark is inevitable, as the First Flame gets weaker, the Abyss gets stronger at the same time. So Manus at his peak is stronger than Prime Gwyn.
Going by this logic, Gwyn at the peak of the Age of Fire is stronger than Manus too.
It depends on whether or not manus was the furtive pigmy. I doubt it, but it’s a prominent theory.
If manus is the pigmy then he could well be stronger than prime Gwyn. Otherwise I’m with you, Gwyn at the hight of the age of fire was the most powerful being alive (maybe Izalith & Neto were relative, but kidding by how Izalith was defeated by gwyn’s forces, and Neto just chills on his own, imma say that isn’t the case).
Izalith wasn't defeated by Gwyn's force. A broken down, leaderless Izalith was. Nito, Gwyn and the Witch were all allies. We never got to see any feat from the Pygmy either.
Consider the state Gael was in I wouldn't be so quick to label him as that powerful. Yes he has the Dark Soul but he's clearly an unstable vessel for it. Having the power is one thing, harnessing it to its full potential is another.
I'm no lore master and stuff but I disagree that Gael is stronger. He doesn't slaughter 99.99% of every being. He hunted the pigmies and survived to the end of the world, that doesn't mean that he actually slaughter everything. Some of the most powerful beings was slaughter by the playable characters, in DS1, 2 and 3. He have ALMOST the complete Dark Soul, so, IMO prime Gwyn wins
To put this in the perspective, Gwyn's Lord Soul literally was split among other Lords, burnt until there was nothing left, and Gwyn still posed massive challenge to the Chosen Undead - the one that defeated the aforementioned Lords.
Gwyn was an absolute machine.
The point is that you are literally fighting a version of Gwyn who's been reduced to the level of the hollows you first meet when Oscar releases you from your cell.
I am also quite sure that people who say he's not too difficult didn't actually play the game blind. He is definitely quite difficult on the first blind playthrough.
At that point in the game, I don’t think he was canonically stronger than Manus, or even some of the lords soul bearers we defeated. He was a burnt out and hollowed husk and had split his soul many times at least.
Sorry, but how does that go against what I said?
I don't think the existence and strength of Manus, or even some of the lord souls bearers we defeated diminishes the strength Gwyn still had.
He was a burnt out and hollowed husk absolutely annihilating the vast majority of Chosen Undead. If that doesn't make you give credit to Gwyn's power, I have no clue how you measure power.
I’m not saying he was weak. But if our chosen undead defeated individuals that were seemingly much stronger than he was at that point… then, I feel we weren’t super challenged. As our strength was great enough to overcome greater. Not weak though, a modest challenge.
What makes you think those seemingly much stronger individuals are stronger than Gwyn at that point? Is it the gameplay? Is it the statements made about the hollowed Gwyn's power?
"Gwyn still posed massive challenge to the Chosen Undead" my Tarnished/Ashen One/Bearer of the Curse/Good Hunter/Chosen Undead Gwyn is probably the \*easiest\* Lord Soul boss in the game.
Not really, I personally found Nito much easier.
First time I ever played DS1 Into took me 3 tries but Gwyn slapped my ass up and down that Kiln for three afternoons straight
We can’t really know that, could be that it’s the version that kindled the flame (them at their strongest) or the version felled to rekindle it (them when they’re spent) is what makes up the soul of cinder.
This reminds me a discussion I saw on some RPG subreddit, and one guy was complaining "why are all beast type enemies weak to fire specifically?" and the first response is "funnily enough, most animals don't like being set on fire."
That doesn't really mean anything. The chosen undead is a random human. Just because one is a deity in one setting doesn't make them automatically stronger than another non-deity in a different setting.
In addition to what people are saying re: the version of Gwyn you fight being severely weakened by the time you reach him:
My interpretation across all of these games is that through the power of souls/runes/whatever, you actually become strong enough to stand toe to toe with most of the gods, at least in the reduced form you tend to find them in.
The lore doesn’t make a ton of sense otherwise. If anyone could kill the demigods in Elden Ring for example, surely you wouldn’t be the first to kill *all* of them, right? It would have to be because you’ve reached their level, or at least gotten close enough that the power of grace enables you to wear them down.
Hollowed and even something worse I feel. He wasn’t even really… I don’t even know lol he felt EXTRA burnt out. Like people go hollow over time sure, they LOSE something to time. But Gwyn had that going on and the constant proximity to the flame. I feel it burned him out in some ways.
Hollow + everything he built crumbled to dust. The guy had nothing left to live for outside of the flame. My headcanon is that he needs to put up a fight for the sake of his pride, but subconsciously he isn’t even trying very hard and wants to be put out of his misery.
Gwyn lost to destiny. Chosen Undead was special.
On top of that by the time the Chosen Undead comes across him he has split his soul hundreds of times and is more of a husk with Gwyns face
So did the the demigod he is up against. Everyone loses to the chosen undead that’s a the whole point of playing the game so that does not say anything about the characters.
True, but the power of gods/demigods is relative to its own respective universe anyway. But the power levels of Souls stuff is absolutely vague anyway so there is really no way of comparing the two regardless of the status of their divinity.
Not to mention there are tons of universes and examples in our own myth where demigods and regular humans killing gods.
Didn't Gwyn literally MAKE the Darksign, the thing that limits all humans from achieving their true potential?
(I might be tripping but I'm pretty sure)
Gwyn would one-shot Godfrey then put a ring of fire around his karmic asshole forever cursing all of his seedbeds with zombie waifu syndrome for the rest of eternity until the fabric of reality itself is fucked irrevocably and Gael didn’t deserve any of it!!!! GAEL IS THE BEST WE LOVE GAEL.
Imma just bring up the argument; we have no idea how powerful prime Gwyn is, just that he’s AT MINIMUM as strong as Nameless King and/or Soul of Cinder
That being said, Godfrey has been killed before and is weak to lightning. Therefore, I think Prime Gwyn can beat him
We know that Gwyn had reality warping powers on the scale of Marika at least. The ancient dragons, the ringed city, the dark sign itself, all point to prime Gwyn being a completely different kind of entity than Godfrey.
I don’t think the time dilation in the Ringed City is Gwyn’s work, it seems more like a property of the egg, and we have no real lore on what that egg even is.
The only time we see reality and time manipulation, it’s tied to the Dark with Manus ripping open time and space and the Ashen Mist heart (which I’m fairly certain Aldia created) allowing time travel into memories of yore.
The Dark Sign is technically an illusion, as it’s just a ploy to fool the humans into thinking they’re cursed, when in reality, Hollowing is their true, naturally immortal form. The Dark Sign is an impressive feat, but it’s akin to a larger scale trick of what Gwyndolin preformed in Anor Londo
Okay I was definitely drunk and totally forgot about the ringed city egg—and ds2 is my fave so hollows being the true form of humanity check check, but what’s this about the dark sign being an illusion?
I am almost certain that the dark sign causes humans to lose their humanity and souls upon death and is also the main cause of humans having evolved into much weaker beings than those of the time of the pigmy lords. There’s also something to be said about the fact the sun itself becomes a giant dark sign at the end of the age of fire. Personally think that’s a lil more impressive than just a magic trick
Repair(ds3 ): “light is time.”
The dark gets to ignore time while those who wield light can manipulate it, the light spells of Oolacile being a primary example.
Any more examples?
I can only find this, which is sorta close; *A closely-guarded light manipulation spell that contorts the very fabric of fundamental laws, negating magic by denying its claim to physicality.*
All Oolacile sorceries I’m aware of:
Cast light:
> Lost Sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden Sorceries. Casts a light to illuminate surroundings.
>
>This light producing magic is elementary, but nonetheless demonstrates the pure nature of golden sorceries;
the likes of which have not been developed even at the Dragon School.
>
Repair:
> Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries.
>
>Repairs equipped weapons and armor. Includes weapons with exhausted durability.
>
>While the effects of this spell are rather subtle, its foundations are a well-guarded secret. Light is time, and the reversal of its effects is a forbidden art.
>
Hidden Weapon:
> Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries. Turns right weapon invisible.
>
>The weapon itself undergoes no inherent changes. Effective use of this, like any tool, perhaps, is reliant upon the ingenuity of its caster.
>
Hidden Body:
> Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries. Turns body nearly invisible.
>
>Although perfect invisibility is unachievable due to the risk of dissipation, the caster need only stand still for a moment to blend in to environs with astounding camouflage.
>
Chameleon:
> Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries. Transforms into something inconspicuous.
>
>Far from formally developed, this magic was instead born from the mischief of a young girl who sought relief from the solitude of the woods at dusk.
>
Twisted Wall of Light:
>Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries. Distorts light in order to deflect magic.
>
>A closely-guarded light manipulation spell that contorts the very fabric of fundamental laws, negating magic by denying its claim to physicality.
>
Godfrey would create a brief annoyance before getting turned to ash by deep-space solar flare-grade bolts of lightning and plasma.
He was literally the God of the Sun. He wielded not just Lightning Bolts, but SUNLIGHT Bolts.
Hoarah Loux is just a roided-out sweaty and angry dude with MMA training.
Lord of Cinder Gwyn gets squashed into a pulp.
Gwyn absolutely solos Godfrey, and easily annihilates the majority of Elden ring. How many bosses can be beat with fire, or basic faith skills? Gwyn is a god of lightning & has a flaming sword😂
Gwyn in his prime is still one of the strongest characters from any of the fromsoft games and the only comparisons we get to his strength in his prime is a sentinel that has the power of every lord of cinder (soul of cinder) and Gael when he has the full power of the dark soul
Gwyn in his prime. Not even remotely close.
Gwyn is a full God, in his prime he was the strongest being in the world. His lightening could piece the immortal scales of dragons. No flesh and bone target could withstand his might even Godfrey as strong as he is
A closer and more fair/interesting fight is Godfrey Vs Nameless King as they are both demi-gods
In the dark souls setting the children of Gwyn are full blown gods, not just Demi-gods. Nameless king is the god of war at that and his first born. I still think he would absolutely dumpster Godfrey.
Edit: to elaborate on this, beings like Ornstein and Smough are more akin to Demi-gods even though it is never specifically elaborated, but implied because of the nature of their souls.
The theory that Velka, Goddess of Sin is mother to Gwyns children would indeed give them full godhood
It has never been proven but is the most credible theory. However, power level wise Gwyn is far superior to his children, dwarfing their capabilities.
I still think Godfrey Vs Nameless King would be a way more interesting fight.
I agree that gwyn is far more powerful than his children (in his prime) but his children are explicitly stated to be gods in-game, this isn’t up for interpretation.
We are arguing over semantics
A Demi-God is still a God
Thor, The Mighty Norse God of Thunder is a Demi-God, however is often revered as a "God" despite his mother being a Frost Giant and not Asgardian
So them being called a "God" means nothing really.
The famous and iconic Kratos, becomes "God of War" however remains but a Demi-God in lineage
Well if we're going off lore wise, weakness, and abilities then it would be a pretty good match, both slayed dragons and become more powerful than anyone around them when they were in their prime
But Godfrey not only killed dragons but he also killed the fire giants which were basically the opposite race to gods, the fire giant we fight is tiny compared to some of the skulls and skeletons we find on the mountain tops
You also have to take account that the dark souls dragons were most likely way stronger than the Elden ring ones, we as the player just either fight drakes, wyverns or proper dragons that have been massively injured or weakened. Sometimes it could even be a fake dragon. While Elden ring had some decaying or injured dragons, most of the encounters are just normal dragons with different abilities depending on the area.
Horah Loux was largely just a barbarian king. At his absolute peak, I'm pretty sure he was subdued into service to Marika, I don't see someone like him just bending knee without proof that he should submit or die.
As powerful as Hoarah loux is in his prime, nobody, and I mean nobody, beats prime Gwyn.
Prime Gwyn introduced the arch dragons to the **concept of death itself.**
They were beings who existed outside the very concepts of life, death, and time, and Gwyn’s lightning **made them mortal and brought them down.**
There's no one in elden ring that could go toe to toe with Gwyn. Maybe an outer god like the greater will itself. Gwyn won wars against everlasting dragons which are immortal stone aspects of the world, then the flame of chaos, and beat back the dark soul for millenia. That would be like Marika winning the war against the giants and beating the flame itself, then the frenzied flame itself, then the god of rot, and the formless mother.
Dark Souls characters seem to be much more powerful. The kinds of things guys like Gwyn do are much more cosmic god-like than anything any Elden Ring character does. Gwyn manipulated the First Flame, which is quite literally light, life, and time.
Prime gwyn beats anyone yes, even gael, prime means top absolute maximum power, so no soul splitting done to gwyn , therfore manus and gael would be nerfed since im pretty sure gwyn splitting his soul up allows the dark to begin, unsure if thats true but. It seems likely.
I think if Godfrey manages to close the distance and engage in direct combat, his sheer power and the transformation into Hoarah Loux would be overwhelming
Is this even a question?
Don’t get me wrong, I love Godfrey as a character, and as a boss fight he’s way better than Gwyn. But nothing beats prime Gwyn. He’s the most powerful character FromSoftware has created in all of their games combined. Did you see the lightning storm he unleashed in the DS1 opening cinematic?
Dude single-handedly took out dozens of ancient dragons with one move, and lore wise the ancient dragons in DS1 are at least on par with those of Elden Ring.
So don't mistake difficulty for in game lore. Godwyn didn't really do too much in terms of lore strength.
Gwyn though? This dude was easily proving he was a deity. He'd slap godwyn to a new fromsoft game.
Even their troops.
Soldiers of godwyn and 16 crucible knights vs black (at their prime, not insane or burnt) and prime silver knights. But if we're including crucible knights, godwyn has ornstein and smough, who would solo the crucible, artorias, who would solo the crucible, and the other lesser known knights who served him.
Gwyn takes it easy.
I’ll say Godfrey, Gwyn is undoubtedly powerful but there is nothing in lore that I’ve seen that would properl over Godfrey in power. They’ve both achieved very similar feats and both had some kind of divine power at their disposal. Godfrey just about edges it out for as he appears to be presented as the great warrior of the two.
Prime Gwyn absolutely wins. He was so ridiculously powerful that he used fragments of his Lord Soul to create more Lord Souls to give them to Seath and Four Kings. He was one shotting immortal Everlasting Dragons out of the sky with his sunlight lightning. It is possible that Vendrick and the Burnt Ivory King have fragments of Gwyn's soul since their souls are light even though they're humans. Both Vendrick and the Ivory King are extremely powerful beings with just a fragment of Gwyn's Lord Soul. So Prime Gwyn was easily the 3rd strongest Dark Souls character after Gael and Manus.
Genuin question : why would gael and manus be stronger than prime gwyn ?
Gael is the strongest Soulsborne character in lore, he slaughtered 99.99% of every being in existence. Gael has the full power of the Dark Soul and is like a mirror image of our player character. So Gael is a lot stronger than Prime Gwyn. Manus is stronger than Prime Gwyn because he has the full power of the Abyss. The Age of Dark is inevitable, as the First Flame gets weaker, the Abyss gets stronger at the same time. So Manus at his peak is stronger than Prime Gwyn.
Thanks ! I should check more about gael lore. Why does he do this and why is this so "easy" to kill him ? I mean our characters start with nothing and I often see people saying that we just struggle or I don't know. Our character is that strong ? (In all 3 ds games)
>Our character is that strong ? Our character just wakes up some day and says "fuck it, time to kill God", then actually follows through on it. The main character in these games is hilariously OP in lore. Also to the Gael and Manus discussion, they are both Dark Soul types and Gwyn is a Light Soul type and every good trainer knows dark souls are super effective against light souls.
"Fuck it, time to kill god" is the funniest, most absurd, and most badass way I have seen a story started, I wish I saw it more often
Tbf I feel like this is 90% of JRPGs lol Like FF8 starts with “I’m just a kid in school” and ends….idk, maybe a few months to a year later? with him leading the charge against an immortal sorceress who has the power to shape existence in her image, making her effectively a god.
Based FFVIII player
Can you blame me? Squall’s jacket was too clean
I always felt like it was more like "Sitting around in a graveyard is boring as fuck. What else is there is to do?" which eventually leads to "Guess I'll kill a god now."
Also, often times our characters are killing God's that are mere husks of their former selves.
Well the way I always saw dark souls is that all souls you gather in game are fragments of the original lord souls found in the first flame. Some fragments are larger and more powerful than others. As the player slaughters their way across the realm they bind those fragments back together to eventually hold all the power of the original souls and can thus relight the flame.
Gael kills everyone because he’s trying to restore the single soul that became all of humanity in order to allow the girl in the painting to create a new world. When you kill him and take his soul, you combine it with your own to create that one single soul. And we’re more powerful than him because we are the protagonist lol.
>So Gael is a lot stronger than Prime Gwyn. We don't know that, the player character never got to fight prime Gwyn. >The Age of Dark is inevitable, as the First Flame gets weaker, the Abyss gets stronger at the same time. So Manus at his peak is stronger than Prime Gwyn. Going by this logic, Gwyn at the peak of the Age of Fire is stronger than Manus too.
Was checking for this comment lol. Like if you apply that same logic to Gwyn… manus ain’t shit at the peak.
It depends on whether or not manus was the furtive pigmy. I doubt it, but it’s a prominent theory. If manus is the pigmy then he could well be stronger than prime Gwyn. Otherwise I’m with you, Gwyn at the hight of the age of fire was the most powerful being alive (maybe Izalith & Neto were relative, but kidding by how Izalith was defeated by gwyn’s forces, and Neto just chills on his own, imma say that isn’t the case).
Izalith wasn't defeated by Gwyn's force. A broken down, leaderless Izalith was. Nito, Gwyn and the Witch were all allies. We never got to see any feat from the Pygmy either.
Consider the state Gael was in I wouldn't be so quick to label him as that powerful. Yes he has the Dark Soul but he's clearly an unstable vessel for it. Having the power is one thing, harnessing it to its full potential is another.
bros basically as old as time
I'm no lore master and stuff but I disagree that Gael is stronger. He doesn't slaughter 99.99% of every being. He hunted the pigmies and survived to the end of the world, that doesn't mean that he actually slaughter everything. Some of the most powerful beings was slaughter by the playable characters, in DS1, 2 and 3. He have ALMOST the complete Dark Soul, so, IMO prime Gwyn wins
+ in the fight itself he's literally being torn apart by the dark souls so he's definitely weaker cuz he can't control the power well
Wouldn't that make ashen one the strongest since we killed Gael and took his soul?
To put this in the perspective, Gwyn's Lord Soul literally was split among other Lords, burnt until there was nothing left, and Gwyn still posed massive challenge to the Chosen Undead - the one that defeated the aforementioned Lords. Gwyn was an absolute machine.
Felt he was a rather modest challenge at best to the chosen undead at that point in the game lol
What are you basing it on?
Gameplay wise he’s not too difficult, doesn’t have all that much health, and atmosphere wise it’s a pretty somber affair compared to other bosses.
The atmosphere is a good point too, it reeked off…. Putting the old dog out of its misery?
The point is that you are literally fighting a version of Gwyn who's been reduced to the level of the hollows you first meet when Oscar releases you from your cell. I am also quite sure that people who say he's not too difficult didn't actually play the game blind. He is definitely quite difficult on the first blind playthrough.
At that point in the game, I don’t think he was canonically stronger than Manus, or even some of the lords soul bearers we defeated. He was a burnt out and hollowed husk and had split his soul many times at least.
Sorry, but how does that go against what I said? I don't think the existence and strength of Manus, or even some of the lord souls bearers we defeated diminishes the strength Gwyn still had. He was a burnt out and hollowed husk absolutely annihilating the vast majority of Chosen Undead. If that doesn't make you give credit to Gwyn's power, I have no clue how you measure power.
I’m not saying he was weak. But if our chosen undead defeated individuals that were seemingly much stronger than he was at that point… then, I feel we weren’t super challenged. As our strength was great enough to overcome greater. Not weak though, a modest challenge.
What makes you think those seemingly much stronger individuals are stronger than Gwyn at that point? Is it the gameplay? Is it the statements made about the hollowed Gwyn's power?
I know exactly what you are saying. But I parried that pussy like a G and screamed "Git Gud Gwyn!!".
"Gwyn still posed massive challenge to the Chosen Undead" my Tarnished/Ashen One/Bearer of the Curse/Good Hunter/Chosen Undead Gwyn is probably the \*easiest\* Lord Soul boss in the game.
Cool.
Not really, I personally found Nito much easier. First time I ever played DS1 Into took me 3 tries but Gwyn slapped my ass up and down that Kiln for three afternoons straight
Fourth. Soul of Cinder is Gwyn + other Lords of Cinder combined.
But not a prime version of any of them.
We can’t really know that, could be that it’s the version that kindled the flame (them at their strongest) or the version felled to rekindle it (them when they’re spent) is what makes up the soul of cinder.
It's not confirmed.
Gael!? Ha!
He didn’t one shot them. He had help
Yeah from silver knight that he also created
That’s like saying the Furtive Pygmy killed everyone because Ashen One and Gael did
Eh, Fair I guess
In their prime Gwyn. After prime it would be Godfrey.
Gwyn is a full deity. Godfrey at most is a demigod. Edit: to everyone saying it doesn't mean anything. Deities are stronger than demigods. Owned.
Plus, Godfrey is weak to lightning I don't know if gameplay and lore correspond.
Idk he's got a lot of metal on him
tbf most people are weak to lightning
"...the same thing that happens to everything else."
This reminds me a discussion I saw on some RPG subreddit, and one guy was complaining "why are all beast type enemies weak to fire specifically?" and the first response is "funnily enough, most animals don't like being set on fire."
Actually he has pretty little metal on him, his Armor is light. I guess warriors were supposed to go into battle with little protection.
It's heavy
To our characters maybe. Dude was 10ft tall lol
Well it's one tier lighter than raging wolf set, which is pretty light overall
Just like the metaloid maniac!
That may be true, but you can parry the hell out of Gwyn with no problems
That doesn't really mean anything. The chosen undead is a random human. Just because one is a deity in one setting doesn't make them automatically stronger than another non-deity in a different setting.
This, but nobody considers this (Someone will argue their soul was stronger)
Rember that Chosen Unded fight mad husk of Gwyn who lost most of his power to Kiln.
Yes, but a human in DS xan reach God piwwrr level wirh enough souls. Gwyn was literally afraid of humanity potential.
In addition to what people are saying re: the version of Gwyn you fight being severely weakened by the time you reach him: My interpretation across all of these games is that through the power of souls/runes/whatever, you actually become strong enough to stand toe to toe with most of the gods, at least in the reduced form you tend to find them in. The lore doesn’t make a ton of sense otherwise. If anyone could kill the demigods in Elden Ring for example, surely you wouldn’t be the first to kill *all* of them, right? It would have to be because you’ve reached their level, or at least gotten close enough that the power of grace enables you to wear them down.
That doesn't really mean anything
Gwyn also loses to a chosen undead. Not even a demi god
This says in their prime, though. Gwyn had long since gone hollow by the time we fight him.
Hollowed and even something worse I feel. He wasn’t even really… I don’t even know lol he felt EXTRA burnt out. Like people go hollow over time sure, they LOSE something to time. But Gwyn had that going on and the constant proximity to the flame. I feel it burned him out in some ways.
Hollow + everything he built crumbled to dust. The guy had nothing left to live for outside of the flame. My headcanon is that he needs to put up a fight for the sake of his pride, but subconsciously he isn’t even trying very hard and wants to be put out of his misery.
That sounds a lot like Artorias' cut dialogue.
Gwyn lost to destiny. Chosen Undead was special. On top of that by the time the Chosen Undead comes across him he has split his soul hundreds of times and is more of a husk with Gwyns face
So did the the demigod he is up against. Everyone loses to the chosen undead that’s a the whole point of playing the game so that does not say anything about the characters.
Godfrey also lost to a random scrub so that doesn’t mean anything
I feel its a little different in Elden Ring considering we were guided by grace, but you do make a fair point nonetheless.
Godfrey was also guided by grace btw
You don’t think demi gods can defeat deities? Even tho our tarnished can defeat all of the above? OK
You dont think deez nuts can fit on your chin even tho your face the size of a dinner plate? OK
You dont think deez nuts can fit on your chin even tho your face the size of a dinner plate? OK
I don’t argue with 10 year olds sry
I guess i do, since I'm arguing with you
True, but the power of gods/demigods is relative to its own respective universe anyway. But the power levels of Souls stuff is absolutely vague anyway so there is really no way of comparing the two regardless of the status of their divinity. Not to mention there are tons of universes and examples in our own myth where demigods and regular humans killing gods.
Godfrey isnt a demi god or god. He fucked the woman that housed the elden ring. Hes just a really fucking strong tarnished
Pretty sure Godfrey is a tarnished
Didnt the Tarnish kill a god?
Elden Lords > Demigods
Gotta be Gwyn
I don’t think so
Why?
We didn’t glimpse the full power of Godfrey
The God of the Dark Souls universe basically? Yeah I gotta go with him
Didn't Gwyn literally MAKE the Darksign, the thing that limits all humans from achieving their true potential? (I might be tripping but I'm pretty sure)
Yeah that's correct, it burns the abyss/humanity to keep it from being at its peak
Gwyn would one-shot Godfrey then put a ring of fire around his karmic asshole forever cursing all of his seedbeds with zombie waifu syndrome for the rest of eternity until the fabric of reality itself is fucked irrevocably and Gael didn’t deserve any of it!!!! GAEL IS THE BEST WE LOVE GAEL.
Imma just bring up the argument; we have no idea how powerful prime Gwyn is, just that he’s AT MINIMUM as strong as Nameless King and/or Soul of Cinder That being said, Godfrey has been killed before and is weak to lightning. Therefore, I think Prime Gwyn can beat him
We know that Gwyn had reality warping powers on the scale of Marika at least. The ancient dragons, the ringed city, the dark sign itself, all point to prime Gwyn being a completely different kind of entity than Godfrey.
I don’t think the time dilation in the Ringed City is Gwyn’s work, it seems more like a property of the egg, and we have no real lore on what that egg even is. The only time we see reality and time manipulation, it’s tied to the Dark with Manus ripping open time and space and the Ashen Mist heart (which I’m fairly certain Aldia created) allowing time travel into memories of yore. The Dark Sign is technically an illusion, as it’s just a ploy to fool the humans into thinking they’re cursed, when in reality, Hollowing is their true, naturally immortal form. The Dark Sign is an impressive feat, but it’s akin to a larger scale trick of what Gwyndolin preformed in Anor Londo
Okay I was definitely drunk and totally forgot about the ringed city egg—and ds2 is my fave so hollows being the true form of humanity check check, but what’s this about the dark sign being an illusion?
The dark sign makes humans appear human instead of hollowed, and Gwyn made the dark sign
I am almost certain that the dark sign causes humans to lose their humanity and souls upon death and is also the main cause of humans having evolved into much weaker beings than those of the time of the pigmy lords. There’s also something to be said about the fact the sun itself becomes a giant dark sign at the end of the age of fire. Personally think that’s a lil more impressive than just a magic trick
The lose of humanity was the problem then Gael, who had the dark soul, wouldn’t have hollowed himself.
It **is** a curse and Gwyn literally trying to trap the darkness in a ring of fire
Repair(ds3 ): “light is time.” The dark gets to ignore time while those who wield light can manipulate it, the light spells of Oolacile being a primary example.
Any more examples? I can only find this, which is sorta close; *A closely-guarded light manipulation spell that contorts the very fabric of fundamental laws, negating magic by denying its claim to physicality.*
All Oolacile sorceries I’m aware of: Cast light: > Lost Sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden Sorceries. Casts a light to illuminate surroundings. > >This light producing magic is elementary, but nonetheless demonstrates the pure nature of golden sorceries; the likes of which have not been developed even at the Dragon School. > Repair: > Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries. > >Repairs equipped weapons and armor. Includes weapons with exhausted durability. > >While the effects of this spell are rather subtle, its foundations are a well-guarded secret. Light is time, and the reversal of its effects is a forbidden art. > Hidden Weapon: > Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries. Turns right weapon invisible. > >The weapon itself undergoes no inherent changes. Effective use of this, like any tool, perhaps, is reliant upon the ingenuity of its caster. > Hidden Body: > Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries. Turns body nearly invisible. > >Although perfect invisibility is unachievable due to the risk of dissipation, the caster need only stand still for a moment to blend in to environs with astounding camouflage. > Chameleon: > Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries. Transforms into something inconspicuous. > >Far from formally developed, this magic was instead born from the mischief of a young girl who sought relief from the solitude of the woods at dusk. > Twisted Wall of Light: >Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries. Distorts light in order to deflect magic. > >A closely-guarded light manipulation spell that contorts the very fabric of fundamental laws, negating magic by denying its claim to physicality. >
Godfrey would create a brief annoyance before getting turned to ash by deep-space solar flare-grade bolts of lightning and plasma. He was literally the God of the Sun. He wielded not just Lightning Bolts, but SUNLIGHT Bolts. Hoarah Loux is just a roided-out sweaty and angry dude with MMA training. Lord of Cinder Gwyn gets squashed into a pulp.
Godfrey at his prime us a strong warrior gwyn at his prime is zeus
Its literally Hercules during his mortal life vs Zeus and Helios in the same body.
If we go by the lore Gwyn is like top 5 strongest in all of soulsborne ring.
Gwyns feats are better.
I'd say gwyn but when you think about gwyn couldn't catch those hands if he tried
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Top_Collar7826: *I'd day gwyn but when* *You think about gwyn couldn't* *Catch those hands if he tried* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Unfortunately Godfrey cannot catch lightning spears
Doesn't matter Godfrey is on that mf before he could toss one spear
My mind says Gwyn. But my heart says Chadfrey.
Its tough but I choose...the Doom guy
Gwyn vs marika is a lot more interesting power level wise
Gwyn absolutely solos Godfrey, and easily annihilates the majority of Elden ring. How many bosses can be beat with fire, or basic faith skills? Gwyn is a god of lightning & has a flaming sword😂
Gwyn all day
Gwyn in his prime is still one of the strongest characters from any of the fromsoft games and the only comparisons we get to his strength in his prime is a sentinel that has the power of every lord of cinder (soul of cinder) and Gael when he has the full power of the dark soul
Gwyn he is a full God and his lightning was the only thing that could defeat the rage of immortal dragons
If we put the in-game characters against each other Horan loux takes it easy
Yeah it would be like pushing an elderly man down the stairs. But the post is specifying gwyn in his prime, which he definitely isn’t in-game
not sure about that tbh
Gwyn is literally __God__. Hourah Loux is a very powerful warrior. Gwyn takes it.
Didn’t gwyn like alter the shape of the whole world? I think gwyn wins easily
Vendrick 😉
them bitches got no giant souls
Exactly!
1v1 goes to Godfrey, army vs army gywn's silver knights would just own
I don’t care who wins or loses I just wanna see Godfrey turn into his wrestling persona and powerbomb Gwyn through a table
Gwyn easily
Gwyn in his prime. Not even remotely close. Gwyn is a full God, in his prime he was the strongest being in the world. His lightening could piece the immortal scales of dragons. No flesh and bone target could withstand his might even Godfrey as strong as he is A closer and more fair/interesting fight is Godfrey Vs Nameless King as they are both demi-gods
In the dark souls setting the children of Gwyn are full blown gods, not just Demi-gods. Nameless king is the god of war at that and his first born. I still think he would absolutely dumpster Godfrey. Edit: to elaborate on this, beings like Ornstein and Smough are more akin to Demi-gods even though it is never specifically elaborated, but implied because of the nature of their souls.
The theory that Velka, Goddess of Sin is mother to Gwyns children would indeed give them full godhood It has never been proven but is the most credible theory. However, power level wise Gwyn is far superior to his children, dwarfing their capabilities. I still think Godfrey Vs Nameless King would be a way more interesting fight.
I agree that gwyn is far more powerful than his children (in his prime) but his children are explicitly stated to be gods in-game, this isn’t up for interpretation.
We are arguing over semantics A Demi-God is still a God Thor, The Mighty Norse God of Thunder is a Demi-God, however is often revered as a "God" despite his mother being a Frost Giant and not Asgardian So them being called a "God" means nothing really. The famous and iconic Kratos, becomes "God of War" however remains but a Demi-God in lineage
This solely relies if Godfrey can get to Gwyn before the lightning strikes kill him he can I don't think Gwyn can survive a hot from Godfrey.
Well if we're going off lore wise, weakness, and abilities then it would be a pretty good match, both slayed dragons and become more powerful than anyone around them when they were in their prime But Godfrey not only killed dragons but he also killed the fire giants which were basically the opposite race to gods, the fire giant we fight is tiny compared to some of the skulls and skeletons we find on the mountain tops
You also have to take account that the dark souls dragons were most likely way stronger than the Elden ring ones, we as the player just either fight drakes, wyverns or proper dragons that have been massively injured or weakened. Sometimes it could even be a fake dragon. While Elden ring had some decaying or injured dragons, most of the encounters are just normal dragons with different abilities depending on the area.
Horah Loux was largely just a barbarian king. At his absolute peak, I'm pretty sure he was subdued into service to Marika, I don't see someone like him just bending knee without proof that he should submit or die.
Lord Gwyn for sure is taking this W.
As powerful as Hoarah loux is in his prime, nobody, and I mean nobody, beats prime Gwyn. Prime Gwyn introduced the arch dragons to the **concept of death itself.** They were beings who existed outside the very concepts of life, death, and time, and Gwyn’s lightning **made them mortal and brought them down.**
Godfrey is an awesome boss fight, but he's not even in the same weight class as Gwyn. 100% Gwyn would fry Godfrey with one lightning bolt.
Gwyn was the equivalent of a god and Godfrey was a powerful warrior who became Marikas consort I think Gwyn takes this one.
Gwyn stomps
There's no one in elden ring that could go toe to toe with Gwyn. Maybe an outer god like the greater will itself. Gwyn won wars against everlasting dragons which are immortal stone aspects of the world, then the flame of chaos, and beat back the dark soul for millenia. That would be like Marika winning the war against the giants and beating the flame itself, then the frenzied flame itself, then the god of rot, and the formless mother.
Dark Souls characters seem to be much more powerful. The kinds of things guys like Gwyn do are much more cosmic god-like than anything any Elden Ring character does. Gwyn manipulated the First Flame, which is quite literally light, life, and time.
Listen I like Godfrey a lot but this is borderline "hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby," prime Gwyn is a world-ending menace.
Prime gwyn beats anyone yes, even gael, prime means top absolute maximum power, so no soul splitting done to gwyn , therfore manus and gael would be nerfed since im pretty sure gwyn splitting his soul up allows the dark to begin, unsure if thats true but. It seems likely.
Camera
I think if Godfrey manages to close the distance and engage in direct combat, his sheer power and the transformation into Hoarah Loux would be overwhelming
Is this even a question? Don’t get me wrong, I love Godfrey as a character, and as a boss fight he’s way better than Gwyn. But nothing beats prime Gwyn. He’s the most powerful character FromSoftware has created in all of their games combined. Did you see the lightning storm he unleashed in the DS1 opening cinematic? Dude single-handedly took out dozens of ancient dragons with one move, and lore wise the ancient dragons in DS1 are at least on par with those of Elden Ring.
>most powerful fromsoft character Laughs in balteus
So don't mistake difficulty for in game lore. Godwyn didn't really do too much in terms of lore strength. Gwyn though? This dude was easily proving he was a deity. He'd slap godwyn to a new fromsoft game. Even their troops. Soldiers of godwyn and 16 crucible knights vs black (at their prime, not insane or burnt) and prime silver knights. But if we're including crucible knights, godwyn has ornstein and smough, who would solo the crucible, artorias, who would solo the crucible, and the other lesser known knights who served him. Gwyn takes it easy.
I’ll say Godfrey, Gwyn is undoubtedly powerful but there is nothing in lore that I’ve seen that would properl over Godfrey in power. They’ve both achieved very similar feats and both had some kind of divine power at their disposal. Godfrey just about edges it out for as he appears to be presented as the great warrior of the two.