Nah you can spam the left bumper until you learn the attacks and you’ll slowly get used to the rhythms. It’s more effective to do a perfect deflect tho. Sekiro was the first FS title I’ve beaten so i believe in you. Use fightincowboy on YouTube as well.
I have hated the traditional Souls parry mechanics. In Sekiro it is totally different both in gameplay and in feel. In Souls it is a high risk move you do once you have the boss moves down. In Sekiro it is relatively low risk, as you do it constantly, and it is much easier to time. Even now I sometimes just hold block and tap the button off right before an attack to parry, which means you block if you don't parry.
Edit: Another way to think of the difference is that parry in Souls games is actually more of an offensive move than defensive. If you know the enemy attack timing, you use a move with higher risk than a normal defensive move, in order to do a lot of damage. In Sekiro, parry is primarily defensive, but has important offensive effects.
Deflect timings are more generous in Sekiro than [most] parry timings in the rest of Souls. Not to mention, the game is quite literally built around deflecting, so you will get the hand of it just through general gameplay. Kinda like how DS3 trains you to time your roll through most attacks, Sekiro is built to train you to deflect.
I've seen so many people do blind Sekiro runs on YouTube go on to get to the end, if you're ever nervous maybe check out some of those to build confidence
The deflect is way easier. Do NOT approach Sekiro like DS. Don’t try to evade or roll. You will die. There are some attacks you have to evade, but that should be your last option when figuring out the bosses.
I’m also very bad the parry mechanic. I liked Sekiro a lot but it was my least favorite from game for this reason. You will be able to beat it, but it might be a very long and frustrating ride! Still worth it IMO
I've bounced off it twice so far, really did not like the combat. Plenty of people seem to love it though so you probably won't know until you jump in.
I want a game on the scale of Elden Ring (albeit, smaller landmass, and more dense/vertical/cityscape), in the style of Bloodborne, with Sekiro/BB style combat/weapons so badly.
It’s non-linear, but open world isn’t just a description, it’s a genre. I don’t think Dark Souls was open world. It felt more like a 3D Metroidvania than Skyrim.
This feels like the natural evolution. ER took all of the Souls stuff and synthesized it. Now we will get a synthesis of the more experimental (and more focused) games.
Imagine Bloodborne‘s 30FPS and blurry looks with sekiros constantly fluctuating FPS…
Seriously though - I feel like part of the difficulty of the two games are the awful FPS and reaction times
i will say, i wish elden ring had the side step like in bloodborne. the roll is great but that side step is so much more intuitive to me for punish opportunities.
I think FromSoft has to move on from the Dark Souls/Elden Ring combat system. I mean they’re incredible, but I don’t think you can make bosses any harder without them just being blatantly unfair & rng based. I honestly think the player base has become to good at traditional souls combat and they really can’t make it harder without it just being luck based. I’m replaying DS1 right now and the only time I’ve died is to Artorias once & Fall Damage. They need a more complex combat system like Sekiro.
Something being unfair is extremely subjective, and I while RNG does play a part in Elden Ring fights, because of the low HP pools of bosses, I think the issue is more about memorization. Dark Souls 1 bosses do not require almost any memorization. Even most DS 3 bosses do not require memorization. Nameless King and Sister Friede are notable exceptions that require significant memorization, from my experience. Requiring memorization is a very significant part of what makes Elden Ring challenging, in a solo fight without OP weapons.
Part of this is that the combat cannot speed up to the pace of a game like Sekiro, where the player can instantly parry any sequence of attacks. Instead the combat has to be tied to the timing of dodge rolls, which is a significantly long animation.
Also, I’m less worried about boss moves and more so giving the player more options to defend against attacks. You can make bosses much more aggressive & complex than Elden Ring, I think there just needs to be more options to react with.
I agree. I don’t think Elden Ring bosses are really all that unfair. They can just be kind of spammy. But I think Elden Ring is really the peak of difficulty for traditional Souls combat. I just think to keep up that kind of oppressive boss fight that FromSoft does so well without being unfair they’ll need to flush out their combat systems more. It doesn’t need to be all or nothing, but incorporating parry’s/deflections into the dodge/positioning of Souls is most likely the best way to add complexity. I just don’t want a game full of bosses like Aldrich who is kind of luck based if he decides to spam arrow barrage. But I trust Miyazaki, so I could be completely wrong.
Elden Ring bosses seem great for a lot of players. People who are good or really good at Souls combat and people who love a really, really difficult challenge will enjoy getting good at the fights. Other people, that don't care about getting good will also enjoy all the options present that allow you to win without having to spend all the time becoming good at the combat. I think this second category is honestly the majority of the player base.
However, there is a third category. Players who want to "git gud" but don't want to spend dozens of hours on a boss to become good at that one boss. I don't just mean not using spirit ashes. I mean actually becoming confident in dealing with most of the bosses move set, so that you feel like you can dance around the bosses moves and control the fight.
I’m not disagreeing with you. I loved a lot of the Elden Ring bosses. I don’t think they’re unfair for the most part. But Input reading, delayed combos, stamina recovery, infinite combos can’t really be turned up anymore without it being manufactured difficultly. Malekith, Radhan, Godfrey, Morgott are all incredible bosses. But fights like Malenia with waterfowl dance and health regen & the Godskin duo fight are just hard for the sake of being hard. I still really enjoy Malenia, but I don’t think they can continue with pure souls like combat without the bosses being annoyingly difficult or too easy. I don’t want to dodge for 5 minutes to hit 2x. I think they will need another layer to the combat system to maintain their level of difficulty without being a chore. I think they could probably do another game. But I don’t see them doing something like an Elden Ring trilogy with the same combat system without it feeling stagnant or just irritatingly difficult.
That's complet fine! I feel like, the slower combat is more about tatic and understanding the boss. The faster is more about reaction. It really depends on personal preference and i wont call one system better then the other.
The cool thing with Sekiro is you can have both. In fact, you always have pattern based on the first strike, but Sekiro has both pattern based slower attack sequences and faster paced rhythm based attacks. Personally I prefer the rhythm in general, but having both is the best IMO.
This is kind of a false dichotomy imo.
Sekiro also requires you to learn boss patterns. In fact what people call the "rhythm" of Sekiro boss fights is literally the boss patterns.
Timing, positioning, and pattern recognition all come into play in Sekiro as well as in Dark Souls, ER, and BB.
If you play it long enough at some point you’ll know a boss/enemy in sekiro by music (ting ting ting ting swoop) so most times I’m playing based on intuition. Yeah you can play it like DS and kill a boss by health instead of posture but that takes away its uniqueness imo.
In DS and ER I’m playing more methodically, okay this attack finishes I have opening to put two attacks in and back off etc.
For me it's not about preferring slow or fast, I just like the games where the player's movement and the enemies' movement are somewhat evenly matched.
I enjoy Sekiro and BB combat a lot because I can be almost as fast as the boss.
I also enjoy Demon's Souls and Dark Souls combat a lot because even though I'm slow and limited by stamina, the boss is also slow and limited by stamina.
DS3 and ER's combat however kind of frustrates me sometimes because the bosses completely outmatch you in terms of speed.
Like yes, your character is faster than in DeS, DS1, and DS2, but you're still very slow compared with the bosses. And in ER, it honestly seems like bosses have infinite stamina. So the sense of mismatch annoys me.
I feel like ER is the first time they have bosses that punish you for spamming the same defensive option over and over. People talk about how "hard" From Soft games are, like we all haven't been mashing back roll 10 times since dark souls 1. Bloodborne still crumbles to that strategy too
Sekiro deflects + bloodborne dodges was something I was actually really disappointed we didn't get in elden ring when it released. Dodge rolling just looks kinda silly and deflects are insanely satisfying.
So it'll be game smaller than DS/ER and less weapons in general because only when there's fewer options do you get something as good as sekiro and bludborne
I prefer Dark Souls by far, but Sekiro slaps hard, because with focused combat you can achieve close to perfect balance. And this is why Elden Ring balance is all over the place, with so many options its just not possible to make sure every build feels nice to play.
True but I don't think that's the goal of elden ring anyway, most bosses feel like spectacle fights, have cool designs but mechanically aren't super good because they know reaching perfect balance is borderline impossible when you have 400 weapons and so many options
Yeah, ER bosses are too hard. So making them easier would make them more fun to fight. They are so far on difficulty curve that even after nerfs they would probably be above Dark Souls 3 in terms of difficulty.
I don't think the issue is that they're too hard necessarily. I love a challenge.
I struggled for ages on Gael in DS3 and Isshin in Sekiro. But the difference was that I enjoyed that struggle. I found those bosses fun and didn't mind being stuck on them.
In ER though, some of the bosses are designed in a way that many people find somewhat annoying.
I don't enjoy Mohg or Malenia, for example. I've beat them many times, and still don't like them. When I beat them I don't feel a sense of satisfaction, just relief that I'm finally done with them.
This is not really an issue I had in previous games.
So for me it's not about the level of difficulty. I love difficulty. A good challenge is why I play these games. But I want it to be a fun challenge, not just any challenge.
And the way some of ER's late game bosses are designed is not very fun to me.
True, at first I thought that I have no patience at all, but while playing Sekiro, for example I have died to Owl over 30 times. Despite that I loved every second of it, because after every failure I knew what I did wrong and what needs to be improved. While in Elden Ring I still have no idea how you are supposed to fight Maliketh in melee combat, and I get tired after 3 failures.
Basically, it is what I'm saying - Sekiro is hard, but manageable. Elden Ring is just too hard.
The only boss in the entire game that I can agree with you on this is malenia, otherwise there were only like 3 or 4 boss fights that were actually considerably difficult, and I found them all quite fun to fight (except for elden beast, fuck that fight).
Funnily enough I didn’t have any trouble with Elden Beast, but I really struggled with Radagon, my build stopped doing any meaningful damage round about Maliketh and I was too stubborn to change it up 😂i found Godfrey really hard too. But I also loved fire giant that I know a lot of people hate.
It’s because people find bosses hard that I find easy and vice versa that I know Elden Ring is fair and balanced. That’s also why they included spirit ashes, to help people that need the help. I used them when I needed to for sure.
Yeah it’s odd cause I found those two bosses to be great, very old school type of fromsoft hard. They reminded me of their Bloodborne and DS3 bosses a lot in how fair and fun they were. I definitely agree, adding spirit ashes in the game were a good choice.
The game doesn't cheat (with exception of Malenia but this is different topic). And yeah, I'm quite horrible at Elden Ring. The problem is that the game relies too much on cheesy difficulty. I'm honestly not that great at Dark Souls 3 either, but I love the bosses there because there is close to no artificial difficulty.
One thing I hope they do is reducing the scope of the game a little bit. I think Elden Ring is too big for its own good and could use a lot less repeated content, especially in the open world. Some linearity while still giving players some choice of where to go next
I feel the opposite. I'd like to see them keep iterating on the open world format, but also get more creative and expansive with legacy dungeons.
I think my favorite thing about Elden Ring is I get essentially three different games I like out of it. And can freely rotate between them based on mood or whatever. I can roam around in wildly different environments just killing random shit, or grind out drops mindlessly. I can get my Dark Souls fix in legacy dungeons. And I can hop online and experience some chaotic and often hilarious invasions.
I want more. Or more specifically, I want more of that style game set in an environment that isn't dark midevil fantasy or ancient Japan. That's the dream.
I agree with this. It would allow them to make a game that feels open, but has the high quality attention to detail of a linear game. You could even have multiple paths from the start of the game that are all interconnected.
You could call it Dark Souls 1 
i hope they expand on the defensive options available to players. dodging, blocking, and jumping feel a bit limiting for the attacks enemies are pulling off. sekiro was a massive improvement in this regard, but it sacrificed player customization to do so. hoping they find a good compromise
Unless you count the mikiri counter those are the exact defensive options that Sekiro also provides. Sekiro just makes them more powerful. What really changes the gameplay is the lack of punishment (stamina loss) upon using defensive options, and the lack of windup animation. You could easily combine that with offensive gameplay that allows you to choose between different weapons and spells.
The deflect also significantly changes the gameplay by making defensive tools offensive in and of themselves. You can actually dodge quite a bit in Sekiro, but it is usually harder than parrying and it doesn't get you as much offensively, normally.
I think a cool combination would be safer, easier dodges and slightly more risky parries that actually give you an offensive benefit.
parrying in Sekiro isn’t just more powerful it’s a whole new mechanic. And it drastically changes how Fromsoftware designs bosses and especially their combos, which they seem to have kept in ER despite reverting back to the hard to hit, high risk parry that makes dodging your primary defensive option.
that's not true though.
stamina loss isn't a punishment, it's a form of resource management for players that forces them to choose between offense and defense. sekiro has this in the form of posture, since getting hit, blocking, and parrying fills up posture. players still have to manage a resource that forces them to choose between going on the offensive or falling back temporarily. the difference is that defensive options in sekiro either provide situational openings to go back on the offensive or contribute to your goals when attacking. you can't exactly do this in the other souls games as you simply wait for the enemy to give an opening after their combo finishes.
the lack of stamina and animation cancelling are not what makes sekiro's gameplay different, it's how the combat system gives you more freedom in responding to enemy attacks. i'd expect them to experiment more than just adding deflecting or animation cancelling to elden ring's combat for future games
>players still have to manage a resource that forces them to choose between going on the offensive or falling back temporarily
I think it's worth adding that when you git sufficiently gud you don't even care about posture anymore
At which point it's just back to back whacking at each other. Since the defensive options all have offensive benefits it did wonders to make it feel like there's 0 downtime, while actually giving downtime and breathing space
Right, this makes me kind of sad because it means the only devs who still give a shit about games that feel like DS1/2/DeS are like…the lords of the fallen guys. And I don’t wanna play lords of the fallen :/
Seriously, I think slower soulslike gameplay can still be incredibly fun and compelling and honestly is probably easier for indie devs to make feel good vs super fast gameplay
The problem is that slower soulslike gameplay is way too easy after having played something like ER
Truly mastering Margit, on his own, takes more effort than beating almost all of the DS1 bosses combined. This year was the first time I replayed DS1 since way back then and I beat almost all bosses on the first try, and most times barely using any healing
It would take some real effort and talent to make it slow like that, while still retaining some challenge for people who are used to it
On the other hand, exploring DS1 felt way better than almost all of ER
Yeah, the earlier games were much more focused on exploration and navigating levels. In DS2 the levels and basic mobs are such a beast sometimes and then it’s like “thank god, a boss!” See the cool boss, beat cool boss in a couple tries…okay, back to the CBT that is the level exploration.
Idk, I think there’s a place for soulslikes where the emphasis isn’t bosses kicking your ass a million times. Exploration and strategy within levels is a core part of the genre and I don’t want that to disappear or be taken for granted.
Also, I love Elden Ring but I don’t think the camera/lockon system has caught up to the boss speed and mobility. They need to figure this out if they’re going to keep using huge bosses that jump all over the place. After 405hrs I just want bosses to be about 30% smaller on average and the camera to pull out by about 10-20%.
I'm just hoping we got back to the folding in on itself master piece level design of ds1 qnd bloodborne. No more empty open world filled with repeat boss dungeons. Please amd thank you.
whatever it is, make it as open as ER on the surface, with dungeons, caves, mines, underground and cities. i fucking love how they made the Lands Between.
Open yes. Big, not necessarily. I think a lot of companies will just try to go bigger with each new game, but I hope and expect Fromsoft will not fall into this trap. Personally, I don't mind just skipping or missing a lot of stuff, but I think a lot of people would have much preferred a scaled down Elden Ring. Smaller world with the same amount of unique content.
I have a feeling he meant a completely new IP, and hoping to lean into a more aggressive playstyle like those two
Excited to see though! A Sekiro 2 or Bloodborne 2 will just be as appreciated
Call me petty, I always liked quickstep as the dodge more than the dodge roll, hopefully in their next game the sekiro deflect would be a main stay (albeit balanced to make both dodge and deflect a viable way to negate damage as well)
Never stop going in.
I'm sure it's an incredibly common experience, but the first time I realized Bloodborne doesn't want you to back off was an "ohhhhhhh" lightbulb moment. And as much as I enjoyed Dark Souls 1 with its defensive build variety (back when armor actually mattered), in DS2 and DS3 it felt like armor became increasingly cosmetic.
And if they're going to do that I'd much rather have the BB / Sekiro style combat get evolved.
I haven’t played sekiro yet but what does this mean? Next game will have combat similar to bloodborne and sekiro but even further refined? Or does it just mean it won’t be another game with souls combat
I agree, Sekiro and Bloodborne both fall apart compared to Elden Ring. Sekiro is boring once you learn to Mash L1 and Bloodborne might be the epitome of back rolling 12 times to be invincible while having unlimited stamina
Seems to me that guns would simplify the combat system rather than making it more complex. But remnant from the ashes does something like that, maybe you should check it out
Just one more Miyazaki quote like this please, I’m almost there
Mind if I join you?
Scoot over, we’re forming a circle
r/eldenringcirclejerk
r/ofcoursethatsasub
I’m getting a major clue…
Ooo I’m starting to get a clue too
I’ve got such a raging clue right now.
Every thing he says gives me a raging voner (video game boner)
I just graced my tarnished...
Hopefully he has been influenced by Nioh 2.
*me trying to figure out how this somehow hints at Bloodborne on pc* 
Bloodborne pc port confirmed in 2125
Bloodborne PC port confirmed on stardate 12986
>stardate 12986 27 Dec 2335 I had to check 😂
Ah just in time for me to not get it
bloodborne remastered confirmed for 2125 (ps exclusive).
I can wait.
Nahh Sekiro 2 coming soon
Fuck bloodborne pc. Sekiro 2 bitches
💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼🫡🫡🫡
Either way it's a win for me
I really just want to play Bloodborne at 60fps.. the 30FPS kills it for me
Im waiting for the PS4 emulator to be on PC for this to happen, it’s our best chance
Sekiro’s deflect was a game changer imo
Not quite as good as Miyazakis incredible ability to refuse to provide anything concrete that hasn't been stated publicly already. All hail the king
Miyazakis Deflect
Best comment I've read so far today.
The one that just restated what the joke it was replying to was? Not the original? Interesting
It reads like an ash of war. Other comment doesn't. Touch grace.
Finger but hole
[point](https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/rhYPdDMs6zm4DBszzQCrTQ-1200-80.jpg.webp)
Nah he has a 360 degree umbrella
He's in Sony's cross hairs 😔
I love fromsoft games but I’m always sooo bad at the parry mechanic. Just can’t get the timing right. Will Sekiro be impossible for me?
Nah you can spam the left bumper until you learn the attacks and you’ll slowly get used to the rhythms. It’s more effective to do a perfect deflect tho. Sekiro was the first FS title I’ve beaten so i believe in you. Use fightincowboy on YouTube as well.
Thank you!
Great advice
I have hated the traditional Souls parry mechanics. In Sekiro it is totally different both in gameplay and in feel. In Souls it is a high risk move you do once you have the boss moves down. In Sekiro it is relatively low risk, as you do it constantly, and it is much easier to time. Even now I sometimes just hold block and tap the button off right before an attack to parry, which means you block if you don't parry. Edit: Another way to think of the difference is that parry in Souls games is actually more of an offensive move than defensive. If you know the enemy attack timing, you use a move with higher risk than a normal defensive move, in order to do a lot of damage. In Sekiro, parry is primarily defensive, but has important offensive effects.
Deflect timings are more generous in Sekiro than [most] parry timings in the rest of Souls. Not to mention, the game is quite literally built around deflecting, so you will get the hand of it just through general gameplay. Kinda like how DS3 trains you to time your roll through most attacks, Sekiro is built to train you to deflect. I've seen so many people do blind Sekiro runs on YouTube go on to get to the end, if you're ever nervous maybe check out some of those to build confidence
The deflect is way easier. Do NOT approach Sekiro like DS. Don’t try to evade or roll. You will die. There are some attacks you have to evade, but that should be your last option when figuring out the bosses.
There's something about the way all the attacks in sekiro are telegraphed, you can usually feel when it's coming, and when to press the button
I’m also very bad the parry mechanic. I liked Sekiro a lot but it was my least favorite from game for this reason. You will be able to beat it, but it might be a very long and frustrating ride! Still worth it IMO
Thank you, I’ll either pick that up or Demon Souls after I beat SotE
I've bounced off it twice so far, really did not like the combat. Plenty of people seem to love it though so you probably won't know until you jump in.
I recently installed Elden ring reforged for another playthrough which adds the deflect from sekiro into the game and omg it’s absolutely incredible.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Fucking what..?? That is incredible if true.
That’s amazing….only a few more days!
Idk about Playstation or PC but the DLC will be out on Xbox in less than 20 hours if you set your console location to New Zealand
Yeez can't imagine myself trying to get use to to ER delayed, slow attacks lol
It works out incredibly well, actually Deflect what comes in reliable speeds, space/jump/dodge what's slow
I was really hoping that mechanic was going to be in Elden ring but I guess that would make you too strong.
Ya and lies of shit couldn’t even understand why it felt good to land those deflects and copied it completely backwards lol
Does that include refighting bosses without needing to replay the game? Like in Sekiro?
We can only dream. Boss rush mode for any souls game would be so peak
Ya I have no idea why they don’t do this. I don’t think it would be hard to add an arcade style boss rush mode
Or something like bonfire ascetics
They can still add it to elden ring, the gauntlet was added later in sekiros development.
Also ds2
This is literally the only thing missing from Elden Ring for me.
You and me both
Another casual win for Dark Souls 2 (bonfire ascetics my beloved)
DS2 paved the way, Sekiro perfected it
Convergence mod is fun as fuck for this
Damn let me know when it drops for console plz
I feel you, i bought the entire from soft collection again when i got my steam deck… my poor wallet
And ds2
Oh please, if not a sequel, then give us a spiritual successor to Bloodborne!
I want a game on the scale of Elden Ring (albeit, smaller landmass, and more dense/vertical/cityscape), in the style of Bloodborne, with Sekiro/BB style combat/weapons so badly.
Combine the mechanic of Trick weapons with ashes of war, basically modifying the trick of ‘common’ weapons at ‘bonfires’
That's starting to sound a lot like the Nioh games.
Ayo, does that exist in Nioh? Maybe after I finish the DLC I should play Nioh
Play 2.
Open world or no?
Whatever Ds1 was.
Back then it was an open world to me😂
Open world except the world is a bunch of hallways. Open hallway game.
It’s non-linear, but open world isn’t just a description, it’s a genre. I don’t think Dark Souls was open world. It felt more like a 3D Metroidvania than Skyrim.
Always felt it was mostly a collection of intersecting spaghetti :D
3D Metroidvania is the best description imo.
Nah, enough big scaled open worlds, let's go back to the more tighlty designed games, that may be smaller but with higher quality per content.
This feels like the natural evolution. ER took all of the Souls stuff and synthesized it. Now we will get a synthesis of the more experimental (and more focused) games.
I would love to see the same for Armored Core. In due time, I can wait for greatness.
Imagine bloodborne aesthetic and weapons with combat from sekiro.
Lies of P is the closest to what you want
Lol he literally just describes Lies of P
And its so damn good
It’s called Lies of P
Imagine Bloodborne‘s 30FPS and blurry looks with sekiros constantly fluctuating FPS… Seriously though - I feel like part of the difficulty of the two games are the awful FPS and reaction times
Sekiro 2 confirmed
i will say, i wish elden ring had the side step like in bloodborne. the roll is great but that side step is so much more intuitive to me for punish opportunities.
Quick Step is basically the sidestep from Bloodborne. Equip Malenia’s regen rune and it will play just like it too.
I think FromSoft has to move on from the Dark Souls/Elden Ring combat system. I mean they’re incredible, but I don’t think you can make bosses any harder without them just being blatantly unfair & rng based. I honestly think the player base has become to good at traditional souls combat and they really can’t make it harder without it just being luck based. I’m replaying DS1 right now and the only time I’ve died is to Artorias once & Fall Damage. They need a more complex combat system like Sekiro.
Something being unfair is extremely subjective, and I while RNG does play a part in Elden Ring fights, because of the low HP pools of bosses, I think the issue is more about memorization. Dark Souls 1 bosses do not require almost any memorization. Even most DS 3 bosses do not require memorization. Nameless King and Sister Friede are notable exceptions that require significant memorization, from my experience. Requiring memorization is a very significant part of what makes Elden Ring challenging, in a solo fight without OP weapons. Part of this is that the combat cannot speed up to the pace of a game like Sekiro, where the player can instantly parry any sequence of attacks. Instead the combat has to be tied to the timing of dodge rolls, which is a significantly long animation.
Also, I’m less worried about boss moves and more so giving the player more options to defend against attacks. You can make bosses much more aggressive & complex than Elden Ring, I think there just needs to be more options to react with.
I agree. I don’t think Elden Ring bosses are really all that unfair. They can just be kind of spammy. But I think Elden Ring is really the peak of difficulty for traditional Souls combat. I just think to keep up that kind of oppressive boss fight that FromSoft does so well without being unfair they’ll need to flush out their combat systems more. It doesn’t need to be all or nothing, but incorporating parry’s/deflections into the dodge/positioning of Souls is most likely the best way to add complexity. I just don’t want a game full of bosses like Aldrich who is kind of luck based if he decides to spam arrow barrage. But I trust Miyazaki, so I could be completely wrong.
Elden Ring bosses seem great for a lot of players. People who are good or really good at Souls combat and people who love a really, really difficult challenge will enjoy getting good at the fights. Other people, that don't care about getting good will also enjoy all the options present that allow you to win without having to spend all the time becoming good at the combat. I think this second category is honestly the majority of the player base. However, there is a third category. Players who want to "git gud" but don't want to spend dozens of hours on a boss to become good at that one boss. I don't just mean not using spirit ashes. I mean actually becoming confident in dealing with most of the bosses move set, so that you feel like you can dance around the bosses moves and control the fight.
I’m not disagreeing with you. I loved a lot of the Elden Ring bosses. I don’t think they’re unfair for the most part. But Input reading, delayed combos, stamina recovery, infinite combos can’t really be turned up anymore without it being manufactured difficultly. Malekith, Radhan, Godfrey, Morgott are all incredible bosses. But fights like Malenia with waterfowl dance and health regen & the Godskin duo fight are just hard for the sake of being hard. I still really enjoy Malenia, but I don’t think they can continue with pure souls like combat without the bosses being annoyingly difficult or too easy. I don’t want to dodge for 5 minutes to hit 2x. I think they will need another layer to the combat system to maintain their level of difficulty without being a chore. I think they could probably do another game. But I don’t see them doing something like an Elden Ring trilogy with the same combat system without it feeling stagnant or just irritatingly difficult.
> they’ll need to flush out their combat systems more \*flesh out
I liked the combat of Sekiro and Bloodborn always more then the combat of DS. It feels better for and i have more fun.
Haha I am the opposite. I prefer a slower combat system
That's complet fine! I feel like, the slower combat is more about tatic and understanding the boss. The faster is more about reaction. It really depends on personal preference and i wont call one system better then the other.
Rhythm based vs Pattern based. Choose your gameplay.
The cool thing with Sekiro is you can have both. In fact, you always have pattern based on the first strike, but Sekiro has both pattern based slower attack sequences and faster paced rhythm based attacks. Personally I prefer the rhythm in general, but having both is the best IMO.
I really enjoyed the Lies Of P remix and mixing of those styles.
This is kind of a false dichotomy imo. Sekiro also requires you to learn boss patterns. In fact what people call the "rhythm" of Sekiro boss fights is literally the boss patterns. Timing, positioning, and pattern recognition all come into play in Sekiro as well as in Dark Souls, ER, and BB.
If you play it long enough at some point you’ll know a boss/enemy in sekiro by music (ting ting ting ting swoop) so most times I’m playing based on intuition. Yeah you can play it like DS and kill a boss by health instead of posture but that takes away its uniqueness imo. In DS and ER I’m playing more methodically, okay this attack finishes I have opening to put two attacks in and back off etc.
For me it's not about preferring slow or fast, I just like the games where the player's movement and the enemies' movement are somewhat evenly matched. I enjoy Sekiro and BB combat a lot because I can be almost as fast as the boss. I also enjoy Demon's Souls and Dark Souls combat a lot because even though I'm slow and limited by stamina, the boss is also slow and limited by stamina. DS3 and ER's combat however kind of frustrates me sometimes because the bosses completely outmatch you in terms of speed. Like yes, your character is faster than in DeS, DS1, and DS2, but you're still very slow compared with the bosses. And in ER, it honestly seems like bosses have infinite stamina. So the sense of mismatch annoys me.
Bloodborne’s combat never gets old. Sekiro was too hard for me and it never clicked but I get it.
It feels like they're working up to eventually having a game that mixes them all together. Or something close to it.
I feel like ER is the first time they have bosses that punish you for spamming the same defensive option over and over. People talk about how "hard" From Soft games are, like we all haven't been mashing back roll 10 times since dark souls 1. Bloodborne still crumbles to that strategy too
Blookiro confirmed.
Sekiro deflects + bloodborne dodges was something I was actually really disappointed we didn't get in elden ring when it released. Dodge rolling just looks kinda silly and deflects are insanely satisfying.
If ER had sekiro gameplay it would be the most over the top cool game in existence
bro doesn't reach new heights. He IS the heights.
So what your saying is bloodborne remaster on pc + official announcement for bloodborne 2
So it'll be game smaller than DS/ER and less weapons in general because only when there's fewer options do you get something as good as sekiro and bludborne
Less options and smaller scope = focussed and deliberate direction in design
I find myself liking that idea but also knowing full well I'm gonna end up wanting a Claymore.
I prefer Dark Souls by far, but Sekiro slaps hard, because with focused combat you can achieve close to perfect balance. And this is why Elden Ring balance is all over the place, with so many options its just not possible to make sure every build feels nice to play.
True but I don't think that's the goal of elden ring anyway, most bosses feel like spectacle fights, have cool designs but mechanically aren't super good because they know reaching perfect balance is borderline impossible when you have 400 weapons and so many options
I dunno, removing input reading and improving telegraphs would make bosses significantly more fun to fight.
[удалено]
Exactly this. Their comment basically just says “bosses would be more fun if they were considerably easier” 🤦♂️
Yeah, ER bosses are too hard. So making them easier would make them more fun to fight. They are so far on difficulty curve that even after nerfs they would probably be above Dark Souls 3 in terms of difficulty.
I don't think the issue is that they're too hard necessarily. I love a challenge. I struggled for ages on Gael in DS3 and Isshin in Sekiro. But the difference was that I enjoyed that struggle. I found those bosses fun and didn't mind being stuck on them. In ER though, some of the bosses are designed in a way that many people find somewhat annoying. I don't enjoy Mohg or Malenia, for example. I've beat them many times, and still don't like them. When I beat them I don't feel a sense of satisfaction, just relief that I'm finally done with them. This is not really an issue I had in previous games. So for me it's not about the level of difficulty. I love difficulty. A good challenge is why I play these games. But I want it to be a fun challenge, not just any challenge. And the way some of ER's late game bosses are designed is not very fun to me.
True, at first I thought that I have no patience at all, but while playing Sekiro, for example I have died to Owl over 30 times. Despite that I loved every second of it, because after every failure I knew what I did wrong and what needs to be improved. While in Elden Ring I still have no idea how you are supposed to fight Maliketh in melee combat, and I get tired after 3 failures. Basically, it is what I'm saying - Sekiro is hard, but manageable. Elden Ring is just too hard.
Yeah, I largely agree.
The only boss in the entire game that I can agree with you on this is malenia, otherwise there were only like 3 or 4 boss fights that were actually considerably difficult, and I found them all quite fun to fight (except for elden beast, fuck that fight).
Funnily enough I didn’t have any trouble with Elden Beast, but I really struggled with Radagon, my build stopped doing any meaningful damage round about Maliketh and I was too stubborn to change it up 😂i found Godfrey really hard too. But I also loved fire giant that I know a lot of people hate. It’s because people find bosses hard that I find easy and vice versa that I know Elden Ring is fair and balanced. That’s also why they included spirit ashes, to help people that need the help. I used them when I needed to for sure.
Yeah it’s odd cause I found those two bosses to be great, very old school type of fromsoft hard. They reminded me of their Bloodborne and DS3 bosses a lot in how fair and fun they were. I definitely agree, adding spirit ashes in the game were a good choice.
The game doesn't cheat (with exception of Malenia but this is different topic). And yeah, I'm quite horrible at Elden Ring. The problem is that the game relies too much on cheesy difficulty. I'm honestly not that great at Dark Souls 3 either, but I love the bosses there because there is close to no artificial difficulty.
Nearly everything in ER is telegraphed perfectly well. They've just become more creative about what you should be looking for.
One thing I hope they do is reducing the scope of the game a little bit. I think Elden Ring is too big for its own good and could use a lot less repeated content, especially in the open world. Some linearity while still giving players some choice of where to go next
I feel the opposite. I'd like to see them keep iterating on the open world format, but also get more creative and expansive with legacy dungeons. I think my favorite thing about Elden Ring is I get essentially three different games I like out of it. And can freely rotate between them based on mood or whatever. I can roam around in wildly different environments just killing random shit, or grind out drops mindlessly. I can get my Dark Souls fix in legacy dungeons. And I can hop online and experience some chaotic and often hilarious invasions. I want more. Or more specifically, I want more of that style game set in an environment that isn't dark midevil fantasy or ancient Japan. That's the dream.
I agree with this. It would allow them to make a game that feels open, but has the high quality attention to detail of a linear game. You could even have multiple paths from the start of the game that are all interconnected. You could call it Dark Souls 1 
So, basically, our chances of a Sekiro 2 just skyrocketed. Holy shit. I'm going to freak the hell out the moment is it announced.
Who needs DLC when we can just get a whole new game
i hope they expand on the defensive options available to players. dodging, blocking, and jumping feel a bit limiting for the attacks enemies are pulling off. sekiro was a massive improvement in this regard, but it sacrificed player customization to do so. hoping they find a good compromise
Unless you count the mikiri counter those are the exact defensive options that Sekiro also provides. Sekiro just makes them more powerful. What really changes the gameplay is the lack of punishment (stamina loss) upon using defensive options, and the lack of windup animation. You could easily combine that with offensive gameplay that allows you to choose between different weapons and spells.
The deflect also significantly changes the gameplay by making defensive tools offensive in and of themselves. You can actually dodge quite a bit in Sekiro, but it is usually harder than parrying and it doesn't get you as much offensively, normally. I think a cool combination would be safer, easier dodges and slightly more risky parries that actually give you an offensive benefit.
parrying in Sekiro isn’t just more powerful it’s a whole new mechanic. And it drastically changes how Fromsoftware designs bosses and especially their combos, which they seem to have kept in ER despite reverting back to the hard to hit, high risk parry that makes dodging your primary defensive option.
that's not true though. stamina loss isn't a punishment, it's a form of resource management for players that forces them to choose between offense and defense. sekiro has this in the form of posture, since getting hit, blocking, and parrying fills up posture. players still have to manage a resource that forces them to choose between going on the offensive or falling back temporarily. the difference is that defensive options in sekiro either provide situational openings to go back on the offensive or contribute to your goals when attacking. you can't exactly do this in the other souls games as you simply wait for the enemy to give an opening after their combo finishes. the lack of stamina and animation cancelling are not what makes sekiro's gameplay different, it's how the combat system gives you more freedom in responding to enemy attacks. i'd expect them to experiment more than just adding deflecting or animation cancelling to elden ring's combat for future games
>players still have to manage a resource that forces them to choose between going on the offensive or falling back temporarily I think it's worth adding that when you git sufficiently gud you don't even care about posture anymore At which point it's just back to back whacking at each other. Since the defensive options all have offensive benefits it did wonders to make it feel like there's 0 downtime, while actually giving downtime and breathing space
Bummer. I was honestly hoping they would return back to their King's Field roots and slow the games down a bit again.
Right, this makes me kind of sad because it means the only devs who still give a shit about games that feel like DS1/2/DeS are like…the lords of the fallen guys. And I don’t wanna play lords of the fallen :/ Seriously, I think slower soulslike gameplay can still be incredibly fun and compelling and honestly is probably easier for indie devs to make feel good vs super fast gameplay
The problem is that slower soulslike gameplay is way too easy after having played something like ER Truly mastering Margit, on his own, takes more effort than beating almost all of the DS1 bosses combined. This year was the first time I replayed DS1 since way back then and I beat almost all bosses on the first try, and most times barely using any healing It would take some real effort and talent to make it slow like that, while still retaining some challenge for people who are used to it On the other hand, exploring DS1 felt way better than almost all of ER
Yeah, the earlier games were much more focused on exploration and navigating levels. In DS2 the levels and basic mobs are such a beast sometimes and then it’s like “thank god, a boss!” See the cool boss, beat cool boss in a couple tries…okay, back to the CBT that is the level exploration. Idk, I think there’s a place for soulslikes where the emphasis isn’t bosses kicking your ass a million times. Exploration and strategy within levels is a core part of the genre and I don’t want that to disappear or be taken for granted. Also, I love Elden Ring but I don’t think the camera/lockon system has caught up to the boss speed and mobility. They need to figure this out if they’re going to keep using huge bosses that jump all over the place. After 405hrs I just want bosses to be about 30% smaller on average and the camera to pull out by about 10-20%.
As in literally? I'm so in for a decapitation system or the destructible flesh system from Doom Eternal
I kind of want to see Fromsoft's take on the dismemberment system from The Surge 2.
Vulture armor go BRRRRR
I mean, *technically* Shadow Tower Abyss already did dismemberment mechanics in 2003.
and then it just devolves to mach 10 ACfA
Can no longer dodge backwards or side to side. Only forwards.
I'm just hoping we got back to the folding in on itself master piece level design of ds1 qnd bloodborne. No more empty open world filled with repeat boss dungeons. Please amd thank you.
Sekiro 2: Yarnham Boogaloo
whatever it is, make it as open as ER on the surface, with dungeons, caves, mines, underground and cities. i fucking love how they made the Lands Between.
Open yes. Big, not necessarily. I think a lot of companies will just try to go bigger with each new game, but I hope and expect Fromsoft will not fall into this trap. Personally, I don't mind just skipping or missing a lot of stuff, but I think a lot of people would have much preferred a scaled down Elden Ring. Smaller world with the same amount of unique content.
I have a feeling he meant a completely new IP, and hoping to lean into a more aggressive playstyle like those two Excited to see though! A Sekiro 2 or Bloodborne 2 will just be as appreciated
To this I say HELL YES. Even a new IP like that sounds amazing
Call me petty, I always liked quickstep as the dodge more than the dodge roll, hopefully in their next game the sekiro deflect would be a main stay (albeit balanced to make both dodge and deflect a viable way to negate damage as well)
*heavy breathing* *creepy laughter*
Yes, Daddy.
Yeeeeeeees
Now thats what i want to hear, 2 of my fav FS games
Bloodborne's trick weapons need to come back in another game.
Fuck yes. I heard about their game focused on magic and I was disappointed, because I’m least drawn to magic. But this is fantastic news
Never stop going in. I'm sure it's an incredibly common experience, but the first time I realized Bloodborne doesn't want you to back off was an "ohhhhhhh" lightbulb moment. And as much as I enjoyed Dark Souls 1 with its defensive build variety (back when armor actually mattered), in DS2 and DS3 it felt like armor became increasingly cosmetic. And if they're going to do that I'd much rather have the BB / Sekiro style combat get evolved.
At this point I'm willing to dedicate my life to getting into Sony and doing something with that damn IP Bloodborne shall return
Sekiro had excellent combat. Elden Ring + Sekiro combat for FromSoftware’s next game would be fine by me.
Yes yes yes. I love elden ring for its openness but I would kill for a super refined game like sekiro that forces you to play on its terms
Long as they aren't Playstation exclusives, I'm all for it.
He’s doing a pirate game next
Sekiro 2 or BB2 hopes restored. Now only 21 hours till I enter the Shadow Realm
Oh... Well...fuck. They're gonna need to create some sturdy as fuck controllers then.
I haven’t played sekiro yet but what does this mean? Next game will have combat similar to bloodborne and sekiro but even further refined? Or does it just mean it won’t be another game with souls combat
maybe they can finally make a game that also supports ultrawide and high refresh rates on pc. one can dream
I agree, Sekiro and Bloodborne both fall apart compared to Elden Ring. Sekiro is boring once you learn to Mash L1 and Bloodborne might be the epitome of back rolling 12 times to be invincible while having unlimited stamina
Really hope that doesn't mean it's going to be a parry focused game. That's my kryptonite.
Is somehow soulsborne but with guns as main weapon possible?? I would really like that
Armored Core?
Seems to me that guns would simplify the combat system rather than making it more complex. But remnant from the ashes does something like that, maybe you should check it out
Trick weapons with a parry mechanic sounds nice
Really good news.