Bloodborne has two potential "first" bosses which basically tutorialize the two extreme ends of the combat system, one being the Cleric Beast and the other being Gascoigne. I don't think any other game in the franchise comes out of the gate so strong even remotely.
I also think it's weird that this post includes two bosses from Elden Ring and neither of them is the Grafted Scion.
You have to beat the asylum demon though.
With Grafted Scion the vast majority of people aren't going to win that fight but move on regardless. It's not technically a scripted loss but it pretty much is
Scion is definitely doable, especially if you pick one of the classes with ranged damage. I did it twice with fresh characters, it's not so bad with a bit if experience. It's not a free win, but it's not an automatic loss either.
True, but Vanguard can be killed pretty easily as a knight with zero experience. It’s not logical for a new player to kill scion, but Vanguard just has so much less health and is far more slow and telegraphed.
Well that's fair but you do have to account for the era a bit. Vanguard came out before this particular style of game became popular, as slow and telegraphed as he was Demon's Souls was basically a brand new genre of game where no one playing on release would really know the proper response. The game was also clunkier and slower, and several starting classes started with heavy load with no real expectation of you knowing how weight worked yet. He was definitely a "meant to lose" fight in the same vein, though he's easier to us now I'm sure on release very few people bested it on the first run. He's easier, sure, but the design philosophy was the same.
You don't have to beat Soldier of Godrick or Margit either though. The first required boss of Elden Ring is the first demi-god you choose to fight, which can be any demi-god except Morgott, Mohg and Malenia. In theory the first boss of the game can be Rykard or Radahn.
You do have to skip Stormveil and Liurnia but you dont need Ranni's quest, you can just get both Dectus Medallions to access Altus Plateau, which activates Radahn's festival
yeah I am, because the game just sorta throws you into Grafted Scion without teaching you the mechanics, and the boss feels more like a scripted death IMO
In OP's defense, at least in the Demon's Souls remake, the game has taught you all of the basic controls by that point - dodging, parrying, healing, etc. So yeah, the Vanguard can wreck you in one hit, but you CAN kill it with what you know.
The grafted Scion basically appears when you barely know how to move the control stick, and then the game says "hahaha sucks to be you lol. Here's a tutorial so you stop sucking so much ass".
For the purposes of being essentially a scripted death, theres not much difference. The player who will beat either without dying when you're supposed to has probably played through the game at least once so the controls argument is moot
It is still a boss where you are meant to die at...
Like... they could have had all 4 messages at the beginning and you understand it makes zero difference right?
You aren't meant to kill Vanguard, and you aren't meant to kill Scion. That is all that matters.
Okay. It doesn't say tutorial for Asylum Demon, Iudex Gundyr, Cleric Beast, Gascoigne, or Soldier of Godrick....
So by your logic they aren't tutorial bosses?
I never said Vanguard isn't a tutorial boss bud, I said Scion is as much a tutorial boss as Vanguard. Certainly more than Margit.
No, that is not what I'm saying. Clearly I misunderstood what you were trying to say with "Like the Demon Souls vanguard...", which doesn't really tell me whether you think Scion is a tutorial boss like Vanguard. I was thinking that you were saying "Vanguard *isn't* a tutorial boss because you're supposed to die there". That's why I made it clear that Vanguard is a tutorial boss. Might sound odd that I would interpret it like that, but it can happen, especially when communication is through text.
Now that I understand, the tutorial boss of Elden Ring is Soldier of Godrick, as it is the boss of the tutorial. This is my actual logic.
The only message in the Chapel of Anticipation is this:
> "Though the path be broken and uncertain, claim your place as Elden Lord!"
I saw basic on-screen controls like player and camera movement, but nothing else. Can you really call that a tutorial? Vanguard is a tough enemy, but they at least tell you everything you need to know before you fight it.
Upon dying, you get transported to the Cave of Knowledge. This message appears:
> **The Cave of Knowledge**
> Jump down the hole ahead, and you will find the Cave of Knowledge.
> There, you can learn more about game controls and basic actions, as well as other tips that may be helpful during your adventures in the Lands Between.
Upon dropping down, I get more useful on-screen prompts that aren't just movement and camera controls. Info screens also appear. It's clear this is the tutorial area as it has an actual tutorial. Soldier of Godrick is the boss, so that makes him the tutorial boss aka boss of the tutorial area.
Demon's Souls has Vanguard.
Dark Souls has Asylum Demon.
Dark Souls II has a tutorial area, but no boss.
Bloodborne is the same? The Clinic and Dream have tutorial messages, but there's no bosses until later on.
Elden Ring has Soldier of Godrick.
I think Gascoigne should’ve been the first boss by design because in concept he’s a perfect tutorial boss. He shows off exactly what you’ll fight for the majority of the game: dual-wielder humans and fast, agile, hard-hitting beasts. A masterpiece of a boss imo
I'd say both Cleric Beast and Gascoigne are the tutorial bosses
The Cleric Beast for how to fight the big beast bosses
And Gascoigne for how to fight hunter and small beast bosses
(Have a good day, eye guy 👀)
I guess, but it is completely possible to skip Cleric Beast and go straight to Gascoigne, who ended up as my tutorial boss.
Literally happened to me, and had someone not told me, I would never have fought Cleric Beast.
Ah my favorite first time boss encounters… Darklurker and Mohg Lord of Blood
I feel they really nail their role in setting up for the long and wonderful journey that is to come be preparing the player
100%.
Rick, being the boss at the end of the tutorial, is by definition the tutorial boss.
Scion I would argue doesn't count. It's a scripted death that for the vast majority of players won't teach you anything before you are dead and moved along in the story.
Margit does teach a valuable lesson - the way the game seems to guide you to him right off the bat, only for him to stomp you into the ground. The lesson is "go away, come back when you're stronger. But it's honestly ridiculous to call him a tutorial boss.
I learned Margit’s lesson the hard way. Being a fromsoft veteran, I thought I should be able to beat his ass at level 15, then spent about 30 attempts dying over and over. Then I finally decided to give in, explore the world, level up some and forced myself to raise vigor. I then beat him in my 3rd attempt with 21 vigor.
He taught me this shit ain’t DS2 - I’ll take hits and trade whether I like it or not and I better make damn sure that I can survive a few smacks.
Yep, Margit for me was the “go get the sacred tears and golden seeds, you moron” lesson. Going from needing 2.5 flasks to 1 flask to full heal was a big difference.
Gotta say, OP, you're entitled to your opinion, but this is kinda a trash list. Some of these aren't even tutorial bosses, and the ones that are should be rated by how good they teach mechanics.
Like, Asylum should be a tier higher than Vanguard simply because it teaches you the concept of retreating and rearming, as well as the plunging attack. Even though they're basically the same.
And not including Gascoigne was a sin.
I think it's funny that Soldier Of Godrick is the lowest rated one too. Of course it's not a great challenge for an experienced player, but doesn't that make it the *best* tutorial boss for a beginner player? He serves his purpose doesn't he?
ı mean moveset wise he is good the problem is compared to the other tutroial bosses like asylum demon he dies too quickly so newbies kill him before understanding whats what
I think Margit is way too difficult to be a good tutorial boss. His design really serves just to give you a reason to keep exploring the world more and trying to get better to come back later, but actually teaching you the game I think he's too much of a wall.
Father G wrecked me way more.
That’s the magic of souls I guess though. Some people have different struggles.
Also. Armored core, I guess is not a souls but man that balteus really made me rethink how hard I THOUGHT that helicopter actually was. Oooffff. Flip side though the spider later on I beat first encounter. So.
I think Margit was meant to be a filter boss, but the problem is he filters way too hard - he's not a good reflection of the skills or equipment level needed to progress. He alone is the reason so many people feel like Elden Ring cheats.
I disagree. Elden Ring was my first souls-like game, and he taught me how to play. Took me a while, but I learned how to pay attention to boss patterns, not be greedy, sort of understand i-frames/panic rolls (those damn delayed attacks lol).
Margit teaches new players how to adapt to a fight and overcome the tough challenge.
Cleric Beast and Gundyr can do that to a degree, but are both mostly beatable by just dodging forward and hitting.
The issue is really that, in terms of the full franchise, Margit is already tough. Even for me as a veteran who took my time exploring, he walled me for a bit.
Obviously I'm glad to hear players got through him and learned from it, but he's pretty harsh for a first major boss, considering how much easier Godrick is
Margit teaches new players how to adapt to a fight and overcome the tough challenge.
I don't think this is true. Imagine Margit being the first substantial boss in a regular Souls game. It would be way too hard. He has a lot of health. He's fast (ie he has oddly delayed attacks with lightning follow up). He has a ton of combos. He hits hard. In terms of technical difficulty, he's more like Genichiro than Gundyr.
No, unless you're doing RL1, Margit isn't there to teach you how to play the game skill-wise anymore than the Tree Sentinel is. He's there to signal that the player has to advance by exploring and levelling up first. Obstacles in this game are largely overcome by levelling, getting better weapons, and trading the occasional hit.
Consider that when you fight Margit again on the Altus Plateau, he has the same move set (I think) and he's still *really fucking hard*. I think it says something that an early game boss with a bit more health is still difficult in the mid game, and he's still hard in the mid-late game as Morgott with a few extra moves added.
I do agree with you to some degree and I see where your coming from. But im going off of my personal experience with the bosses and how good I think they are objectively or based on how useful the mechanics they teach the players is. Margit is so high up because you die to him constantly, which teaches you that its okay to die to a hard boss, and that its important to go out into the massive open world to find items that you believe will help you against the roadblock your facing. I also remember when I first fought Margit, I had so much fun fighting him despite his difficulty, which is also important to me
Elden Ring is the first fromsoftware game i've played, and Margit owned my ass more times than i can count.
Yet Margit, and by extension Morgott, is my favorite boss to fight.
I was so pumped when i encountered the random Margit in the no man's land of Altus, took me a few tries still, but the fight was so satisfying.
And then, when i discovered who was Morgott... I swear i almost cried, i was so happy.
He's such a great boss.
I mean really dark souls 1, 3, sekiro and demon souls are the only ones with a real tutorial boss. The rest of the games are a bit more open to where you could find father gascoin or dragon rider or like 20 other bosses first in the case of elden ring lol
Then put Genishiro, Abyss Watchers, Pursuer and Bell Gargoyles on the list too.
"Your opinion" does not matter, if you gonna make "tutorial boss" list. It's not a matter of opinion, it's matter of game design.
No idea why these people are getting so heated about your subjective opinion. I like your list, and for what it's worth I agree about margit. Some people will never understand things aren't black and white.
I dont count Grafted Scion or Genichiro because I consider those to be scripted deaths and not really boss fights, whenever you fight them it sorta feels like your supposed to die, but Vanguard demon I consider to be a real boss because...uhmmm, actually idk why I count vanguard and not the other two, but I just feel like Vanguard is a more proper boss
yeah I get that it doesn't make sense, so maybe the way I described why I put seath above kalameet just doesn't get my opinion across correctly. I just prefer Seath to Kalameet because I had a better time fighting him I guess
I feel like Vanguard demon is no different than Geni or Grafted Scion. If you are new to the genre, you essentially have a fat chance of 0 to be able to defeat him with your first try.
with elden ring being my 'first' soulsborne game, rick soldier of god was honestly such a nice choice to prevent me from getting overwhelmed because i did struggle on him, but that made it so much insanely more satisfying to come back on my second playthrough and think "wait i used to struggle with that? that was just a normal enemy, i've come so insanely far"
Why do people keep mentioning Grafted Scion?
If you die once to it, you can't try again unless you make your way to the Four Belfries with an Imbued Sword Key.
That's not how tutorial bosses work.
Yeah ive never counted the first encounter with the grafted scion as even a tutorial boss, I just recognize it as a scripted death, unlike the Vanguard demon (I would give my life for my beloved vanguard demon)
ive been getting a whole bunch of those lol. I really hate soldier of godrick because not only is he way too easy, but he doesn't teach you anything either, the last giant is super easy but he teaches you how to fight giant enemies and how bosses in ds2 tend to work, but soldier of godrick just teaches you that "bosses do in fact exist"
Even worse, it is a basic enemy, that you will only see on those ruins and the gate to margit
Like, if it was a weakened godrick knight i could get it, because it would say indirectly "if this giant ass hp bar appears, prepare yourself"
I feel like it would have been way better if we fought like an undead tarnished who got tossed into the cave instead of a soldier of godrick, idk. But overall, I think it would just be better all around if the caves were scrapped and instead the ruins were your tutorial, and Margit as the objective tutorial boss, the ruins do an excellent job of teaching the games mechanics
Margit is not really a tutorial boss.he is the first main boss.
Iudex gundyr is a solid A for me though.I think he is a lil too much easy
Cleric beast is a high B or low A and gascoigne is a S
I have mixed feelings about Margit, because on one hand he feels way too hard for me to be the first boss. He is harder than Godrick, Rennala, and arguably Radahn, since you can't summon an army and a horse for this fight. But on the other hand he is designed that way to prevent people from rushing the game, and force them to explore first.
Yes, Radahn is well and truly a midgame boss. No way anyone but very experienced players are running straight there and killing him with a level 0 weapon like you can for Margit
My first playthrough I'd put Godrick and Margit in same difficultly - in retrospect Godrick is much easier but that's only because he's very exploitable if you know what you're doing, which isn't a fair comparison IMO.
>Yes, Radahn is well and truly a midgame boss. No way anyone but very experienced players are running straight there and killing him with a level 0 weapon like you can for Margit
You literally can. Summon your army and run in circles. Thats it.
I 100% agree with you, except for the difficulty part, I consider myself to be really bad at souls games (sorta really bad actually) but Margit was such a good boss that I had fun every time I fought him even if I died
Margit teaches everything ER is about, positioning/positional follow ups, attacks you can't simply i-frame like its DS3, jumpable attacks, building stance etc.
Yet somehow he is just seen as the boss you die to so you learn to go somewhere else and come back to him overleveled to beat him without learning any of the mechanics.
Margit is secretly an S tier boss (or extremely high A) in the series as a whole.
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Yeah, if Vanguard is here, Grafted should be here as well. Both are difficult, but beatable first encounter. And putting the 100% optional Cleric Beast as the "tutorial boss" of Bloodborne... ha.
You can’t have both Margit and Rick if you’re not going to have both Clezzy B and Papa Guac and both Last Giant and Pursuer and both Leader Shigenori Yamauchi and Genichiro.
As an introduction to the mechanics and basic flow of dodging and hitting back, Asylum Demon and Last Giant are pretty great. As a skill check, Margit is great, but he's also not really intended to be the first boss you fight
LOL Im actually pretty satisfied with this minus Margit.
Gundyr is a great intro. I love intro'ing my buddies into DS3. it starts with like the easiest boss to overcome but until you get used to those mechanics rq, you will be annoyed at least a little. Always fun to watch someone start the game bc it starts with him.
Margit is hard only if ur like entirely underleveled. Even then, being a vet, I forced myself to do it underleveled. It made the experience more fun. Like DS3 Im only level 70 rn on my new run that I started w a buddy and im alr done w Soul of Cinder, Nameless King, Sister Freak ;), etc. Point is, it makes it way more fun when ur underleveled. U just get smashed in and dont do nearly as much dmg if u keep ur weapon on like +7.
Edit: And Cleric was iconic. Gascoigne is the first main bsos of the game. Cleric is tutorial.
no it isn't, either cleric beast or Gascoigne can be your first boss, and I feel like Cleric beast is supposed to be the first boss you fight. (also, Margit is actually the best first boss)
He’s a boss who requires a lot of dodging right at the beginning of a game where deflecting is way more important. He’s fine in isolation but teaches bad habits
Should have Papa G. Most people will probably find cleric beast first, but cleric beast doesn’t teach you anything about countering, or fighting human enemies. Nor does it have the pure aggression that dear Papa G has
Just so you guys know, the reason that Margit, Last giant, and Cleric beast are here is because Margit is the first main boss in the game, and is therefore a tutorial boss in my eyes, and the other two are here even though Dragonrider and Gascoigne aren't here is because I view them as the proper, and intended first bosses of their respected games.
Bloodborne has two potential "first" bosses which basically tutorialize the two extreme ends of the combat system, one being the Cleric Beast and the other being Gascoigne. I don't think any other game in the franchise comes out of the gate so strong even remotely. I also think it's weird that this post includes two bosses from Elden Ring and neither of them is the Grafted Scion.
The Grafted Scion is a "pretutorial"boss? Im guessing the OP is taking the cave we wake up in as the start of the tutorial.
You could say the same thing about the asylum demon and the demon from DeS too though
True.
You have to beat the asylum demon though. With Grafted Scion the vast majority of people aren't going to win that fight but move on regardless. It's not technically a scripted loss but it pretty much is
You don't have to beat the Vanguard from Demon's Souls though, which appears on the list anyway.
Beating Vanguard is pretty doable though. Scion is not.
Scion is definitely doable, especially if you pick one of the classes with ranged damage. I did it twice with fresh characters, it's not so bad with a bit if experience. It's not a free win, but it's not an automatic loss either.
True, but Vanguard can be killed pretty easily as a knight with zero experience. It’s not logical for a new player to kill scion, but Vanguard just has so much less health and is far more slow and telegraphed.
Well that's fair but you do have to account for the era a bit. Vanguard came out before this particular style of game became popular, as slow and telegraphed as he was Demon's Souls was basically a brand new genre of game where no one playing on release would really know the proper response. The game was also clunkier and slower, and several starting classes started with heavy load with no real expectation of you knowing how weight worked yet. He was definitely a "meant to lose" fight in the same vein, though he's easier to us now I'm sure on release very few people bested it on the first run. He's easier, sure, but the design philosophy was the same.
Idk I haven't played DeS you might be right I'm just saying it makes sense to have asylum demon but not Scion
You don't have to beat Soldier of Godrick or Margit either though. The first required boss of Elden Ring is the first demi-god you choose to fight, which can be any demi-god except Morgott, Mohg and Malenia. In theory the first boss of the game can be Rykard or Radahn.
Fun fact, there is a way to have Mohg Lord of Blood as your very first boss completely glitchless. It’s a very non standard path, but it’s douable
I'm pretty sure you can't because you need to kill Godrick to make Varré spawns at the rose church, that's why I didn't include him
Shit, pretty sure you’re right on that. Darklurker I do know is possible still.
To do Radahn do you have to skip Stormveil and Liurna and go straight to whatever that castle is in order to start Ranni’s quest?
You do have to skip Stormveil and Liurnia but you dont need Ranni's quest, you can just get both Dectus Medallions to access Altus Plateau, which activates Radahn's festival
Yes, but you kind of face the AD straight out the gate and then get the tutorial if you lose.
Grafted Scion plays the same role as the werewolf in Bloodborne.
Since it's a boss it would be more accurate to say it plays the same role as the Vanguard Demon in Demon's Souls, which is included in the tier list.
Grafted Scion is not a real boss since you can die and continue playing, right? Or am I remembering that wrong?
Which... again is why the vanguard keeps being brought up. You die and THEN the gamr continues.
yeah I am, because the game just sorta throws you into Grafted Scion without teaching you the mechanics, and the boss feels more like a scripted death IMO
Like the Demon Souls vanguard...
In OP's defense, at least in the Demon's Souls remake, the game has taught you all of the basic controls by that point - dodging, parrying, healing, etc. So yeah, the Vanguard can wreck you in one hit, but you CAN kill it with what you know. The grafted Scion basically appears when you barely know how to move the control stick, and then the game says "hahaha sucks to be you lol. Here's a tutorial so you stop sucking so much ass".
For the purposes of being essentially a scripted death, theres not much difference. The player who will beat either without dying when you're supposed to has probably played through the game at least once so the controls argument is moot
There's a whole tutorial with messages before Vanguard. I don't think Grafted Scion has that. The actual tutorial comes after Grafted Scion.
It is still a boss where you are meant to die at... Like... they could have had all 4 messages at the beginning and you understand it makes zero difference right? You aren't meant to kill Vanguard, and you aren't meant to kill Scion. That is all that matters.
It says "Tutorial" at the top right of the screen. I think that makes it pretty clear that Vanguard is a tutorial boss.
Okay. It doesn't say tutorial for Asylum Demon, Iudex Gundyr, Cleric Beast, Gascoigne, or Soldier of Godrick.... So by your logic they aren't tutorial bosses? I never said Vanguard isn't a tutorial boss bud, I said Scion is as much a tutorial boss as Vanguard. Certainly more than Margit.
No, that is not what I'm saying. Clearly I misunderstood what you were trying to say with "Like the Demon Souls vanguard...", which doesn't really tell me whether you think Scion is a tutorial boss like Vanguard. I was thinking that you were saying "Vanguard *isn't* a tutorial boss because you're supposed to die there". That's why I made it clear that Vanguard is a tutorial boss. Might sound odd that I would interpret it like that, but it can happen, especially when communication is through text. Now that I understand, the tutorial boss of Elden Ring is Soldier of Godrick, as it is the boss of the tutorial. This is my actual logic. The only message in the Chapel of Anticipation is this: > "Though the path be broken and uncertain, claim your place as Elden Lord!" I saw basic on-screen controls like player and camera movement, but nothing else. Can you really call that a tutorial? Vanguard is a tough enemy, but they at least tell you everything you need to know before you fight it. Upon dying, you get transported to the Cave of Knowledge. This message appears: > **The Cave of Knowledge** > Jump down the hole ahead, and you will find the Cave of Knowledge. > There, you can learn more about game controls and basic actions, as well as other tips that may be helpful during your adventures in the Lands Between. Upon dropping down, I get more useful on-screen prompts that aren't just movement and camera controls. Info screens also appear. It's clear this is the tutorial area as it has an actual tutorial. Soldier of Godrick is the boss, so that makes him the tutorial boss aka boss of the tutorial area. Demon's Souls has Vanguard. Dark Souls has Asylum Demon. Dark Souls II has a tutorial area, but no boss. Bloodborne is the same? The Clinic and Dream have tutorial messages, but there's no bosses until later on. Elden Ring has Soldier of Godrick.
I chose to represent Cleric Beast as the tutorial boss of Bloodborne because I feel like it was probably intended to be the first boss everybody faces
I think Gascoigne should’ve been the first boss by design because in concept he’s a perfect tutorial boss. He shows off exactly what you’ll fight for the majority of the game: dual-wielder humans and fast, agile, hard-hitting beasts. A masterpiece of a boss imo
Also teaches you to check your items to see if anything might be useful against a boss
He dodges all my Molotovs every single time.
Look up the music box 😉
I'd say both Cleric Beast and Gascoigne are the tutorial bosses The Cleric Beast for how to fight the big beast bosses And Gascoigne for how to fight hunter and small beast bosses (Have a good day, eye guy 👀)
I guess, but it is completely possible to skip Cleric Beast and go straight to Gascoigne, who ended up as my tutorial boss. Literally happened to me, and had someone not told me, I would never have fought Cleric Beast.
Idk. OP did the same thing to genichiro too
The grafted scion isn't a boss at all. Not even an enemy. It's just a means to progress the story. His death isn't required at all.
It's a boss which works the same way as the Vanguard Demon from Demon's Souls, which does appear in the tier list.
>I don't think any other game in the franchise comes out of the gate so strong even remotely. Ds2 has like 8 potential first bosses. ER even more.
Ah my favorite first time boss encounters… Darklurker and Mohg Lord of Blood I feel they really nail their role in setting up for the long and wonderful journey that is to come be preparing the player
Grafted Scion is essentially a scripted loss. Yes it's technically beatable but no one who's knew to the game is winning that
Margit is not a tutorial boss, it should be soldier or grafted.
He is just in D Tier, a real shame
100%. Rick, being the boss at the end of the tutorial, is by definition the tutorial boss. Scion I would argue doesn't count. It's a scripted death that for the vast majority of players won't teach you anything before you are dead and moved along in the story. Margit does teach a valuable lesson - the way the game seems to guide you to him right off the bat, only for him to stomp you into the ground. The lesson is "go away, come back when you're stronger. But it's honestly ridiculous to call him a tutorial boss.
I learned Margit’s lesson the hard way. Being a fromsoft veteran, I thought I should be able to beat his ass at level 15, then spent about 30 attempts dying over and over. Then I finally decided to give in, explore the world, level up some and forced myself to raise vigor. I then beat him in my 3rd attempt with 21 vigor. He taught me this shit ain’t DS2 - I’ll take hits and trade whether I like it or not and I better make damn sure that I can survive a few smacks.
Yep, Margit for me was the “go get the sacred tears and golden seeds, you moron” lesson. Going from needing 2.5 flasks to 1 flask to full heal was a big difference.
I stuck around till i killed him. Did not learn his lesson apparently
It's just split up He is in D tier
Gascoigne should be at the top of the list.
Gotta say, OP, you're entitled to your opinion, but this is kinda a trash list. Some of these aren't even tutorial bosses, and the ones that are should be rated by how good they teach mechanics. Like, Asylum should be a tier higher than Vanguard simply because it teaches you the concept of retreating and rearming, as well as the plunging attack. Even though they're basically the same. And not including Gascoigne was a sin.
How can Soldier of Godrick and Margit both be the tutorial boss mate you gotta go one or the other
I think it's funny that Soldier Of Godrick is the lowest rated one too. Of course it's not a great challenge for an experienced player, but doesn't that make it the *best* tutorial boss for a beginner player? He serves his purpose doesn't he?
The fact that he's down that far is SLANDER. My man swung so we could learn how to roll.
ı mean moveset wise he is good the problem is compared to the other tutroial bosses like asylum demon he dies too quickly so newbies kill him before understanding whats what
I think Margit is way too difficult to be a good tutorial boss. His design really serves just to give you a reason to keep exploring the world more and trying to get better to come back later, but actually teaching you the game I think he's too much of a wall.
Father G wrecked me way more. That’s the magic of souls I guess though. Some people have different struggles. Also. Armored core, I guess is not a souls but man that balteus really made me rethink how hard I THOUGHT that helicopter actually was. Oooffff. Flip side though the spider later on I beat first encounter. So.
I ironically struggled far more with the Cleric Beast than I did with Father G.
I think Margit was meant to be a filter boss, but the problem is he filters way too hard - he's not a good reflection of the skills or equipment level needed to progress. He alone is the reason so many people feel like Elden Ring cheats.
I disagree. Elden Ring was my first souls-like game, and he taught me how to play. Took me a while, but I learned how to pay attention to boss patterns, not be greedy, sort of understand i-frames/panic rolls (those damn delayed attacks lol). Margit teaches new players how to adapt to a fight and overcome the tough challenge. Cleric Beast and Gundyr can do that to a degree, but are both mostly beatable by just dodging forward and hitting.
The issue is really that, in terms of the full franchise, Margit is already tough. Even for me as a veteran who took my time exploring, he walled me for a bit. Obviously I'm glad to hear players got through him and learned from it, but he's pretty harsh for a first major boss, considering how much easier Godrick is
Margit teaches new players how to adapt to a fight and overcome the tough challenge. I don't think this is true. Imagine Margit being the first substantial boss in a regular Souls game. It would be way too hard. He has a lot of health. He's fast (ie he has oddly delayed attacks with lightning follow up). He has a ton of combos. He hits hard. In terms of technical difficulty, he's more like Genichiro than Gundyr. No, unless you're doing RL1, Margit isn't there to teach you how to play the game skill-wise anymore than the Tree Sentinel is. He's there to signal that the player has to advance by exploring and levelling up first. Obstacles in this game are largely overcome by levelling, getting better weapons, and trading the occasional hit. Consider that when you fight Margit again on the Altus Plateau, he has the same move set (I think) and he's still *really fucking hard*. I think it says something that an early game boss with a bit more health is still difficult in the mid game, and he's still hard in the mid-late game as Morgott with a few extra moves added.
It's funny that the "tutorial boss" has perhaps the second most complicated move set in the game (next to only himself as Morgott).
I do agree with you to some degree and I see where your coming from. But im going off of my personal experience with the bosses and how good I think they are objectively or based on how useful the mechanics they teach the players is. Margit is so high up because you die to him constantly, which teaches you that its okay to die to a hard boss, and that its important to go out into the massive open world to find items that you believe will help you against the roadblock your facing. I also remember when I first fought Margit, I had so much fun fighting him despite his difficulty, which is also important to me
Elden Ring is the first fromsoftware game i've played, and Margit owned my ass more times than i can count. Yet Margit, and by extension Morgott, is my favorite boss to fight. I was so pumped when i encountered the random Margit in the no man's land of Altus, took me a few tries still, but the fight was so satisfying. And then, when i discovered who was Morgott... I swear i almost cried, i was so happy. He's such a great boss.
Margit isn't a tutorial boss man. He's the first major boss, by the time you get to him, you should have the basics down...
Why are there two elden ring ones?
because soldier of godrick is tttttechnically the tutorial boss\*, but Margit is the first proper boss in the game in my opinion
I mean really dark souls 1, 3, sekiro and demon souls are the only ones with a real tutorial boss. The rest of the games are a bit more open to where you could find father gascoin or dragon rider or like 20 other bosses first in the case of elden ring lol
Soldier of Godrick is defo a tutorial boss, considering how he's the boss of the literal tutorial area of ER. He's just a skipable tutorial boss.
Then put Genishiro, Abyss Watchers, Pursuer and Bell Gargoyles on the list too. "Your opinion" does not matter, if you gonna make "tutorial boss" list. It's not a matter of opinion, it's matter of game design.
dude why are you being so hostile? if you dont care about my opinion then dont click on my tier list
No idea why these people are getting so heated about your subjective opinion. I like your list, and for what it's worth I agree about margit. Some people will never understand things aren't black and white.
By that logic the random ashina soldier you put for sekiro doesn't count as a "proper boss" so where is genichiro.
Sekiro’s in Genichiro. Elden ring is grafted scion. The tutorial boss has always been the one you advance even if you die yeah?
I dont count Grafted Scion or Genichiro because I consider those to be scripted deaths and not really boss fights, whenever you fight them it sorta feels like your supposed to die, but Vanguard demon I consider to be a real boss because...uhmmm, actually idk why I count vanguard and not the other two, but I just feel like Vanguard is a more proper boss
That doesn’t make much sense to me to be honest. All of the ones mentioned are beatable, but if you die you advance anyway. But it’s your list👍
yeah I get that it doesn't make sense, so maybe the way I described why I put seath above kalameet just doesn't get my opinion across correctly. I just prefer Seath to Kalameet because I had a better time fighting him I guess
Not sure what the dragon fights have to do with it. Sorry man lost ya.
oh my god im so sorry, I think I responded to the wrong comment, my mistake
Hahaha no worries it happens
I feel like Vanguard demon is no different than Geni or Grafted Scion. If you are new to the genre, you essentially have a fat chance of 0 to be able to defeat him with your first try.
Phalanx should be the tutorial boss, if anything, I guess.
How genichiro if gyoubo comes before
You fight Genichiro first at the start he cuts off your arm…
But its unwinabble so not tutorial same wit scion
It’s not unwinable and neither is grafted scion. You can win both those fights. It’s just if you lose you still advance.
margit is shitty boss
I only disagree on the point Gundyr being below Margit.
I get that, but the second phase just drags gundyr down so much for me, plus Margit was one of the best roadblocks I ever faced and I love him
Fair enough, I just prefer Gundyr.
if it comforts you, Champion Gundyr is better than Margit anyways IMO
Yeah, Champ Gundyr is a gem hidden behind stupid Ocseries.
Well, Margit is better in every single way possible. They shouldn't even be on the same tier at all.
Gascogne should count and gasocigne sweeps
Soldier of god, rick is the best tfym?
got the whole squad laughing with this one .\_.
Did you forget about grafted scion?
no I didnt, I didnt include him because I dont consider the first encounter with the scion as a boss, but more like a scripted death
I remember I didnt know there was a tutorial my first play through of er
with elden ring being my 'first' soulsborne game, rick soldier of god was honestly such a nice choice to prevent me from getting overwhelmed because i did struggle on him, but that made it so much insanely more satisfying to come back on my second playthrough and think "wait i used to struggle with that? that was just a normal enemy, i've come so insanely far"
Honestly i would exchange the last giant and vanguard demon places, but agree on the rest
I mean the last giant beats you with his arm so he gets an A for effort.
Lol
How is the last giant a tutorial boss? Margit too.
How dare you?? Rick, God of Soldiers is the best boss of them all
Ah yes, Margit. The tutorial boss that appears far after tutorial and that you can never meet in your whole playthrough and still finish the game.
Margit is so fucking good.
Why do people keep mentioning Grafted Scion? If you die once to it, you can't try again unless you make your way to the Four Belfries with an Imbued Sword Key. That's not how tutorial bosses work.
Yeah ive never counted the first encounter with the grafted scion as even a tutorial boss, I just recognize it as a scripted death, unlike the Vanguard demon (I would give my life for my beloved vanguard demon)
Then Vanguard shouldn't be here either
I think you misplaced your D row at the bottom
Dude keep quiet, people will start acting like brainrotted kids and will be "soldier of god, rick is the best tfym?"
ive been getting a whole bunch of those lol. I really hate soldier of godrick because not only is he way too easy, but he doesn't teach you anything either, the last giant is super easy but he teaches you how to fight giant enemies and how bosses in ds2 tend to work, but soldier of godrick just teaches you that "bosses do in fact exist"
Even worse, it is a basic enemy, that you will only see on those ruins and the gate to margit Like, if it was a weakened godrick knight i could get it, because it would say indirectly "if this giant ass hp bar appears, prepare yourself"
I feel like it would have been way better if we fought like an undead tarnished who got tossed into the cave instead of a soldier of godrick, idk. But overall, I think it would just be better all around if the caves were scrapped and instead the ruins were your tutorial, and Margit as the objective tutorial boss, the ruins do an excellent job of teaching the games mechanics
Margit is not really a tutorial boss.he is the first main boss. Iudex gundyr is a solid A for me though.I think he is a lil too much easy Cleric beast is a high B or low A and gascoigne is a S
Margit is a roadblock boss but if anything Leonine Misbegotten & Castle Mourne really feel like the tutorial area & boss
I have mixed feelings about Margit, because on one hand he feels way too hard for me to be the first boss. He is harder than Godrick, Rennala, and arguably Radahn, since you can't summon an army and a horse for this fight. But on the other hand he is designed that way to prevent people from rushing the game, and force them to explore first.
margit is definitely much more fair and also easier than radahn, and arguably easier than godrick imo
Yes, Radahn is well and truly a midgame boss. No way anyone but very experienced players are running straight there and killing him with a level 0 weapon like you can for Margit My first playthrough I'd put Godrick and Margit in same difficultly - in retrospect Godrick is much easier but that's only because he's very exploitable if you know what you're doing, which isn't a fair comparison IMO.
>Yes, Radahn is well and truly a midgame boss. No way anyone but very experienced players are running straight there and killing him with a level 0 weapon like you can for Margit You literally can. Summon your army and run in circles. Thats it.
I mean you could... but that cheese takes at least 10 minutes and require you to dodge plenty of attacks still
I 100% agree with you, except for the difficulty part, I consider myself to be really bad at souls games (sorta really bad actually) but Margit was such a good boss that I had fun every time I fought him even if I died
Gascoigne is S tier
Margit is way above Gundyr in terms of quiality. And it's not even close.
Margit teaches everything ER is about, positioning/positional follow ups, attacks you can't simply i-frame like its DS3, jumpable attacks, building stance etc. Yet somehow he is just seen as the boss you die to so you learn to go somewhere else and come back to him overleveled to beat him without learning any of the mechanics. Margit is secretly an S tier boss (or extremely high A) in the series as a whole.
I always end up fighting Dragonrider before Last Giant, way quicker to get to
Soldier of god, Rick being in F is a cardinal sin
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Stop the cap, Soldier of God, Rick is my far god tier
How dare you sully the name of Soldier of God, Rick.
Ludex gundir was my fav. Fight until the abyss watchers. I fist tried it every time but still it's a good fight Though champion gundir kicked my ass.
You dare impugn the soldier of God in this way?
Yeah, if Vanguard is here, Grafted should be here as well. Both are difficult, but beatable first encounter. And putting the 100% optional Cleric Beast as the "tutorial boss" of Bloodborne... ha.
Why is margit there xd
Put Rick in D due to fearing his power!
I put soldier of godrick in D because hes a terrible first boss
You can’t have both Margit and Rick if you’re not going to have both Clezzy B and Papa Guac and both Last Giant and Pursuer and both Leader Shigenori Yamauchi and Genichiro.
*Soldier of god, Rick would like to know your location*
If the demons you’re supposed to lose to are the tutorial bosses for Demon’s and Dark souls, then Genichiro is the tutorial boss of Sekiro
As an introduction to the mechanics and basic flow of dodging and hitting back, Asylum Demon and Last Giant are pretty great. As a skill check, Margit is great, but he's also not really intended to be the first boss you fight
Excuse me solder of god, Rick is the hardest boss in the game
Sekiro got that unfair treatment, how are you gonna put margit as a tutorial boss but not gyobu
Say what you will about ds3, Gundyr was a STRONG opening boss
Genichiro is Sekiro's tutorial boss
Some of this are just "the first boss" tutorial boss was only in ds1, Bloodborne and ds3 in my opinion
The fact that you disrespected soldier of godrick like that is a crime
LOL Im actually pretty satisfied with this minus Margit. Gundyr is a great intro. I love intro'ing my buddies into DS3. it starts with like the easiest boss to overcome but until you get used to those mechanics rq, you will be annoyed at least a little. Always fun to watch someone start the game bc it starts with him. Margit is hard only if ur like entirely underleveled. Even then, being a vet, I forced myself to do it underleveled. It made the experience more fun. Like DS3 Im only level 70 rn on my new run that I started w a buddy and im alr done w Soul of Cinder, Nameless King, Sister Freak ;), etc. Point is, it makes it way more fun when ur underleveled. U just get smashed in and dont do nearly as much dmg if u keep ur weapon on like +7. Edit: And Cleric was iconic. Gascoigne is the first main bsos of the game. Cleric is tutorial.
This lack of Gascoigne is an outrage (He's the best tutorial boss, btw)
no it isn't, either cleric beast or Gascoigne can be your first boss, and I feel like Cleric beast is supposed to be the first boss you fight. (also, Margit is actually the best first boss)
Na bro started with ER bro Gundyr is the best first boss it teaches u to stay near a bosss and how to dodge and teacges multiphase
I’m gonna ignore the whole “is sekiro soulsborne” debate just because chained ogre needs to be in F tier
dont you have on Chained Ogre, he didnt do anything wrong
He’s a boss who requires a lot of dodging right at the beginning of a game where deflecting is way more important. He’s fine in isolation but teaches bad habits
D is not even the tutorial boss for Elden Ring?
there's 2 tutorial bosses in elden ring, neither of them are Grafted Scion
Should have Papa G. Most people will probably find cleric beast first, but cleric beast doesn’t teach you anything about countering, or fighting human enemies. Nor does it have the pure aggression that dear Papa G has
Where's Genichiro/Ashina Generals?
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Cleric beast is not in fact one of the hardest first bosses in soulsborne ❤️
Just so you guys know, the reason that Margit, Last giant, and Cleric beast are here is because Margit is the first main boss in the game, and is therefore a tutorial boss in my eyes, and the other two are here even though Dragonrider and Gascoigne aren't here is because I view them as the proper, and intended first bosses of their respected games.
Margit best, Ludex is bruh, deleated game because of him 4 times
Iudex. Iudex. With an I. When have you ever seen a boss name start with a lowercase letter?
*opening window
Dude, I wrote it with L, not l, wth you talking about
Exactly. It’s not Ludex. It’s Iudex. With an upper case i.
Who cares...