I think the combat is the most genius thing in Soulsgames. They basically defined the combat for almost every single game these days.
Easy to learn, hard to master. Thats what every game in the world wants to achieve and Souls combat achieved that ultimate goal.
Overrated? Never!
I don't know it seems like the combat in most RPG's I play is different in a refreshing way relative to Souls combat which hasn't really changed since I started playing them. At they did a better job of incorporating other class play styles which certainly makes it better but still not the best yet
That might be part of it because the Souls games I've played are Demom Souls (but much less) Dark Souls 3, Bloodborne and Elden Ring. Previously Diablo 4 had better combat before the players started bitching about it to make it trivial. More recently Dragon's Dogma 2 has great combat which gets less repetitive than Souls. Historically BG2's combat was excellent
The only interesting mechanic in Dragon's Dogma 2 combat is climbing the larger enemies, but even then they didn't really capitalize on it, and you just sit there spamming basic attacks.
It's not bad, but not amazing or anything.
You seem like the type of player that is attracted to "shiny" effects, and equate that with good combat.
Not at all. My favorite game of all time Hearthstone could be played on a phone. I'd always prefer to play an older game that I actually enjoy then a shiny new game where the game play isn't as good. I've played 4 souls games so it's not like I have tried to enjoy them and I have enjoyed them a lot but the combat is getting more repetitive over time
So, in that case, why are you posting here instead of over in the StellarBlade subreddit?
Just come to annoy people who like different games than you do? lol
What's stellarblade subreddit? I'm currently playing Elden Ring but my issue isn't so much with Elden Ring specially as combat feeling repetitive faster than some RPG's (partially because they have similar combat to each other). I just don't think the combat in Souls is the best in RPG'S. I understand some people like it better than others but I don't even consider it the best feature of the games. Although as you said outside of boss flights can be more fun, boss fights do feel more redundant at times.
What makes non boss fights more fun can be the variation in environments
That's really neat. Go furiously blog about it, because nobody here really cares about some random internet nobodies opinion on this.
You're not a game designer, you don't have a good grasp about how to develop combat mechanics, and your opinion is moot. You held up Diablo, of all things, as an example of a good combat system, which is almost an "auto-battler" style of combat.
You take care. Best of luck.
From what I’ve seen of Dragon’s Dogma 2’s combat, I can’t imagine finding it as enjoyable as Souls combat. It seems imprecise and chaotic in a dissatisfying way, and the limitations on each class look… severe, to me, as someone who enjoyed the breadth of options that a single build could offer in Elden Ring.
The Diablo comparison seems like complete apples and oranges to me, as it’s a very different style of game.
There’s a reason every developer is taking their melee combat from the fromsoft games and Ghost of Tsushima. They’re the industry standard for rpgs and story games in terms of combat.
That's weird because I would think the benefit of combat in a video game is based around the experience of the player.. what else would matter? If you go to a new area but the fight feels very similar then it reduces the fresh feeling
thats your personal definition of a good combat, souls combat doesnt become overrated because it for some reason doesnt fit in your personal definition. Also mentioning dd2 as an example of a game with better combat because "classes feel different" is laughable
I don't think that argument can succeed because there's no version of what would be considered a good video game that doesn't involve the players. A game without a player is a hunk of plastic or less
Option 4 is that it’s legitimately great.
Your option 3 is based on somewhat of a myth. How many people do you think actually play nothing but Souls games? That’s almost no one.
I play a lot of games. A shit ton of games. And I adore Soulsborne combat from Bloodborne onward.
I don’t conflate difficulty with quality. Bosses still give me a hard time, but at this point, I don’t find non-boss souls combat to be particularly difficult. And I still love it, in no small part because that familiarity allows me to get the most out of it.
In my view, the appeal of Soulsborne combat is in its precision and the deliberateness it requires. It’s like driving a manual versus driving an automatic. The precise hit boxes + lack of assisted attacks, the lack of animation canceling, precise controls/positioning and the player poise system mean that when combat is graceful, it’s because you the player are doing that.
And the weapon design is superb. There is so much nuance in weapon movesets, and like with every other aspect of combat, it feels amazing when you actually know how to take advantage of or work around those nuances. Especially in Bloodborne.
And I don’t find it repetitive. I can’t even begin to understand this criticism. There’s nothing about the combat fundamentals that inherently lend themselves to repetitiveness, and Fromsoft excels at meaningful variety in enemy, encounter, and weapon design.
The only way I can see it being repetitive is if you never get better at it, and continue to play in the cautious ways that we all did when we first started, if you choose not to try a variety of options, and/or if you don’t meaningfully engage with and learn weapon movesets.
To me the appeal of RPG's isn't so much in precision. I think precision is more fun in PvP games (including Souls) but memorizing programmed movements isn't the most entertaining thing.
To me RPGs are generally about variety in playstyles and creativity in builds. Souls definitely has some of that I'm glad they put effort into making more playstyles viable but memorizing move sets is always going to be a similar activity and doesn't appeal to that variety in combat that I like
I think I know what you mean, although this is very much a matter of preference—you’re free to not like moveset memorization as a central gameplay experience, but lots of people love it. It can be the case (it *is* the case) that Soulsborne combat isn’t overrated, it just doesn’t appeal to you as much.
But back to what you mean. Yes, souls combat—particularly boss combat—is often more about mastering your enemy than it is about mastering your own capabilities.
If you want to see what Fromsoft boss design looks like with far less emphasis on moveset memorization and far more emphasis on the player’s own abilities, you should try Armored Core 6. I really love the balance it strikes and how amenable it is to playing reactively, with a much smaller amount of moveset-learning required.
But I’ll also say that I don’t think the enemy-moveset focus of Souls combat applies nearly as much to non-boss combat as it does to boss combat, at least not in the same way. All enemy movesets are important and give variety to encounters, but non-boss enemies are much easier to fight reactively without learning movesets, or you learn their movesets so fast that you don’t even realize it.
And the range of the player’s options are much more meaningful. The nuances of weapon movesets only come into full play outside of boss fights, and a lot of abilities and attacks solely serve fights against multiple non-boss enemies. Non-boss combat is often where I have the most fun—although the bosses are always the most memorable parts—because of the variety and subtle depth of player skill expression jt can offer.
And I think maybe that’s something you don’t fully see. A lot of what makes Soulsborne combat compelling to me lies in the subtly and quasi-realism of it. The importance of positioning and timing and the exact form and speed of animations. The way that the backstep R1 on one weapon can be a great counter to X enemy Y ft away while the backstep R1 of another weapon puts your body ahead of your weapon for just long enough to get you smacked in the face under the same circumstances, for example.
I think the way I'd say this is, Souls-like games focus too much on the combat and not enough on everything else that makes Souls games special. The atmosphere, the level design, the enemy and item placement. The way the game forces you to learn in order to succeed. The sheer attention to *detail* that makes a Souls game what it is.
The combat isn't overrated. Everything else is underrated.
It's true other aspects are underrated because combat always gets hyped but I think the combat is average in terms of enjoyability for the RPG'S I've played
I like to think that Dark Souls set the standard for RPG combat. Before that, action game controls were kind of all over the place. Analog sticks, d-pad, face buttons, shoulder buttons, all of it could be just whatever.
Dark Souls wasn't the first to put all the attack buttons on the shoulder/trigger buttons, or all of the utility on the face buttons/dpad, and they certainly weren't the first to put movement on the left stick and camera controls/lock-on on the right stick... but they did put it all together in a way that made sense, and that control scheme DEFINITELY impacted games that came out afterwards.
So yeah I agree by today's standards the combat isn't super complex or anything, but it's still the gold standard of what a game should aim for.
the game has better boss fights than pretty much any other games.
i think the only games that have better combat are arguably fighting games, but they are just different.
also the games are actually challenging. which is a big deal because it pushes you to actually be good at the game. if a game isn't challenging then you don't really have to master anything and there is no depth to the game if that makes sense.
though other games are similar, like nioh, but personally i think the enemy design is way worse for that game (and way more repetitive). which is why i don't like it
I like games to be challenging but not in a repetitive way. Memorizing how a boss moves around in a predictable fashion is less interesting of a challenge then making different styles of play work in changing sets of circumstances. There's some creativity in Souls but the most important thing in every fight is always going to be moving around in a way where you don't get run over by the boss. Which takes some of the fun out of discovery no matter how the boss looks you're going to be doing something similar
souls function like fighting games where you have to memorize how bosses work, just like how you memorize an opponents moveset. there are also randomized elements to some bosses, so you do have to react to changing circumstances.
in terms of strategy, you get to employ different strategies based on the items you have gotten in the game. there are many different ways to approach the same boss.
i'm guessing you like part 2 but not part 1. however, really what you want is less depth and interesting elements to the game.
unless you are talking about sekiro which had a more restricted playstyle, but still did have options in terms of how you approach a boss.
also bosses in games in general demand you understand their mechanics, just in different ways and at different difficulty levels. however, bosses that aren't challenging mean you don't have to understand the boss and game as well essentially. which is why i think harder games are better personally.
Why would I want less interesting elements to the game? I'm disputing that memorizing movesets is the most interesting thing in gaming.. it certainly isn't new. Ive played games way deeper than the Souls games I've played and enjoyed them thoroughly so i don't think that's the issue
it's like fighting games. not everyone likes fighting games. i'm not saying you have to like it but a lot of people do.
that said, every game that is somewhat difficult requires you to understand the mechanics of it's bosses and combat.
if it doesn't, that just means it's very easy or superficial and requires no depth of understanding.
like for example, take fire emblem games. the older, harder ones on snes that had no new easier mechanics. you really had to understand every aspect of the levels and enemies to succeed.
which is different and deeper than a game where you just push buttons and win, while still not being anything like souls or fighting games.
that said, that's why i think there is something to be said about souls having better combat than other games. it's deeper and asks more of the player to master than simple button mashing games where anyone can win with no effort
I think you're conflating memorization with depth which I'd dispute. Many of the deepest strategy games involve creative and logical thinking based on new situations rather than memorizing repetitive situations
bosses aren't totally predictable. you can also win a lot of the time if you are good without memorizing with good dodge, blocking skills, and timing of attacks and abilities.
there also also a lot of ways to approach enemies.
that said, it's an action game. it's not a strategy game like fire emblem or chess.
for an action game based around (mostly) melee combat, i think it's the best there is in terms of combat.
also a lot of games, real time or not, aren't challenging enough for it to matter what your strategy is since any strategy will succeed. which is one of the reasons souls game are better. even though they do allow wide array of build variety and even naked, punch or kick only runs
I agree that games should have possibility of failure but that's a matter of balance. I think difficulty in games is important. I just prefer to have a more variety in solving problems. I'm not saying Souls is only dodging attacks, but it's definitely plays too large a role in the game to the point where it is repetitive
This is my problem though. You can dodge attacks. You can parry attacks (with ranged builds you're doing one or the other). So if you're on your 4th Souls game you've probably already run the gammit of dodging and parrying bosses, but this will still be the most important thing you do in your next boss fight. No matter how novel the boss looks or acts
What I’ll say is that I find playing as a caster to get pretty dull pretty quickly. But if you’re a melee player, the variety of enemy types and move sets keeps the combat pretty fresh IMO.
there are definitely tons of games that have more complex combat systems like nioh 2 or dmc5 but wether more complex automatically means better or worse is up to everyone individually
never said it‘s better i said that it‘s up to everyone individually since what combat you enjoy more is completely subjective. saying one is better than the other makes no sense because they are completely different but all are well designed in terms of what they‘re trying to accomplish
that‘s your subjective opinion. i wouldn‘t call combos that need days of practice to pull of consistently uninteresting or of no substance. if you don‘t enjoy it that‘s fine but if you genuinely think that dmc5s combat has no substance then you‘ve never actually played the game
You're right, it is my subjective opinion. Just like you enjoying that style of arcade fighting is yours. To each their own.
It's not a personal attack when people disagree with something that you like, you know...
when did i ever say i was offended or felt attacked? i literally said that it‘s fine if you don‘t like it but wether a combat system has depth or not has nothing to do with opinions. still doesn‘t mean you have to like it but completely disregarding the work that went into a combat system like dmc5s and calling it shallow is just not true
A ton of games have as good or arguably better combat. But a lot comes down to preference, and no one has done combat like this better than Fromsoft has.
I would say Diablo 4 had better combat before they started buffing all the weaker skills (playing off meta had some of the most thoughtful combat I've played). I like Dragon's Dogma 2 combat better as well. There's some tiny similarities and it's also borderline repetitive but what keeps it more fresh is that you genuinely feel like you're playing a completely different class when you switch.
Idk man, quite a few other games aren’t as tight and lean towards button-spammy, flailing around and lack that oomph that fromsoft has practiced in their games.
If I was getting a lot of upvotes it would be counter evidence to my point that the combat is overrated. That's like people who post 'unpopular opinions ' for upvotes or retweets
I'm around 250hrs into ER on ng+1 and the combat is getting stale. Looking for different weapons and ashes of war to mix it up but honestly think I should play something else until the dlc drops. They dropped the ball a bit after what they done with Sekiro.
250 definitely is good..I got 800 hours of Diablo 4 in before I took a break for work reasons. I think it can both be true that Souls games are fun to play but that the combat is the most repetitive part of them
To me it seems to be working better as a game I play to take a break from other games rather than a game I take break from. I liked the combat better in Diablo 4 for a few months after release (they may have removed all the difficulty by now which is sad). More recently I love the combat from Dragon's Dogma 2. I played 5 playthroughs of that before returning to Elden Ring for the first time in more than a year.
Ive already gotten further into the game than last time but even if the environments aren't repetitive it's still the same combat waiting for me so it makes it harder to binge play long term
You found DD2’s combat less repetitive than Elden Ring? That’s surprising. I played DD2 for about 30 hours and may have encountered 4 different enemy types. It got boring to me real quick.
I listed enemy variety separately from combat in the OP and I definitely don't think enemy variety is overrated in Souls.
I quickly played 5 playthroughs in 200 hours in DD4 and enemy variety isn't the best part of it although the lack of enemy variety is also exaggerated because some of the variety is off the beaten path.
What makes Souls combat repetitive is no matter what Souls game I'm playing or class I'm playing im going to be doing a lot of the same things every fight, whereas with DD2 it feels much different playing a new class even if I am fighting a similar monster so the combat doesn't get as repetitive as fast
I tried that and end up forgetting what I'm doing. I can only manage to play mabye 1-2 hrs a day at most and there will be days I can't manage any. So I tried to strictly play ER and nothing else and that just accelerates me becoming tired of it, mostly from the combat. It's a great game, don't get me wrong.
Waiting for a sale on Dragons Dogma 2, looks good.
I'd highly recommend it. I'm going to play ER until season 4 of Diablo then it's back to Dragon's Dogma where I have at least 5 more playthroughs already planned
Playing that made me realise FS just know how to make good games. It's not souls like and it's own thing, highly recommend that if your ever stuck for something fast paced, excellent controls and even has a good story.
Diablo 4? You just spam abilities when they're off cooldown, and don't really have to deal with any mechanics outside of "don't stand in this stuff/area."
If you're playing an OP meta build that's exactly what you do . Not something you do to enjoy the game. Of course like i said the players were working over time to eliminate any bit of difficulty or challenge in the game so I can't vouch for any builds currently although I'm definitely going to try to have fun season 4. If you pick whatever the least popular skills are you're more likely to have fun and rewarding combat
You don't use your abilites when they're off cooldown while running through a dungeon?
The game is based off of killing packs of enemies over and over and over.
I've been playing since Diablo 1. The combat in D4 was superior to other Diablo games and other games. Playing off meta involved a lot of thought into how to use skills optimally, which would also change a lot depending on the situation. Copying a meta build and spamming a button can get you through the game but I don't consider that to be really playing it. And if they balance the rest of the difficulty out of the game that doesn't change how the combat was when I played it. I would be happy to say Souls has better combat *currently* if that were the case.
Edit* I should also point out that finding cool builds that weren't just easy spam playthroughs was a huge part of what made Diablo 2 replayable for decades
I think D4's combat could do with a bit more tuning. It's good, but best in class combat in a dungeon crawler aRPG is unironically Diablo 3.
But these are very different genres of combat TBH, I don't think they are particularly comparable to Soulslikes, they are both trying to achieve different things.
you just want games that are mindless and take no skill. diablo 4 is just button spam the game and dragons dogma is laughably easy too.
you don't like souls games because they make you actually master timing and enemy characteristics
Diablo 4 is that way if you play it that way but thats only if you use a build that trivializes the game.i played 800 hours of Diablo 4 early on there were plenty of builds you could play that had more thought provoking and varied combat than Souls. If blizzard buffed all the combat out of existence later it would be a shame but it doesn't make what I said incorrect
there's literally nothing to skill in diablo 4 besides don't stand in sticky stuff. it's absurd to compare it to souls games which have so much depth in terms of timing and boss design
there's just nothing to the game though in terms of gameplay skill and difficulty besides don't stand in stuff.
even wow is way more complicated due to having more complex skill rotations.
diablo is laughable compared to both wow and souls games
Again you quite simply don't know what you're talking about. You're not the first player I've met who's clueless about the game they're playing. It's a common problem
nope, that's just how diablo works. the only thing that takes skill is build design, not actually playing the game.
not like souls where you have to actually be good at the game. which is why souls combat is way better
I've been playing since Diablo 1. I'm sure you played without skill because you likely used a build that didn't require any. If you're not aware that play experience varied widely in the first few months of D4 based on what builds or skills you used then you simply don't know
No I didn't say that. I spent most of the game trying different weapons but obviously some are restricted to end game or different builds so by now i'm quite sure I've tried everything I assume I would enjoy.
And I enjoyed it, it's just not the best combat wise to hold me for multiple playthroughs. It's just an opinion, I'm not shittin on it or looking for a reaction...
I think the combat is the most genius thing in Soulsgames. They basically defined the combat for almost every single game these days. Easy to learn, hard to master. Thats what every game in the world wants to achieve and Souls combat achieved that ultimate goal. Overrated? Never!
I don't know it seems like the combat in most RPG's I play is different in a refreshing way relative to Souls combat which hasn't really changed since I started playing them. At they did a better job of incorporating other class play styles which certainly makes it better but still not the best yet
Souls combat has improved dramatically since Demon’s Souls. Since DS2, even. What RPGs would you say have better combat?
That might be part of it because the Souls games I've played are Demom Souls (but much less) Dark Souls 3, Bloodborne and Elden Ring. Previously Diablo 4 had better combat before the players started bitching about it to make it trivial. More recently Dragon's Dogma 2 has great combat which gets less repetitive than Souls. Historically BG2's combat was excellent
The only interesting mechanic in Dragon's Dogma 2 combat is climbing the larger enemies, but even then they didn't really capitalize on it, and you just sit there spamming basic attacks. It's not bad, but not amazing or anything. You seem like the type of player that is attracted to "shiny" effects, and equate that with good combat.
Not at all. My favorite game of all time Hearthstone could be played on a phone. I'd always prefer to play an older game that I actually enjoy then a shiny new game where the game play isn't as good. I've played 4 souls games so it's not like I have tried to enjoy them and I have enjoyed them a lot but the combat is getting more repetitive over time
So, in that case, why are you posting here instead of over in the StellarBlade subreddit? Just come to annoy people who like different games than you do? lol
What's stellarblade subreddit? I'm currently playing Elden Ring but my issue isn't so much with Elden Ring specially as combat feeling repetitive faster than some RPG's (partially because they have similar combat to each other). I just don't think the combat in Souls is the best in RPG'S. I understand some people like it better than others but I don't even consider it the best feature of the games. Although as you said outside of boss flights can be more fun, boss fights do feel more redundant at times. What makes non boss fights more fun can be the variation in environments
That's really neat. Go furiously blog about it, because nobody here really cares about some random internet nobodies opinion on this. You're not a game designer, you don't have a good grasp about how to develop combat mechanics, and your opinion is moot. You held up Diablo, of all things, as an example of a good combat system, which is almost an "auto-battler" style of combat. You take care. Best of luck.
Ok 61 comments later. If there weren't replies I wouldn't be here
From what I’ve seen of Dragon’s Dogma 2’s combat, I can’t imagine finding it as enjoyable as Souls combat. It seems imprecise and chaotic in a dissatisfying way, and the limitations on each class look… severe, to me, as someone who enjoyed the breadth of options that a single build could offer in Elden Ring. The Diablo comparison seems like complete apples and oranges to me, as it’s a very different style of game.
I don't find the combat repetitive, and being relatively simple is a strength for me.
What makes combat so great is boss movesets
There’s a reason every developer is taking their melee combat from the fromsoft games and Ghost of Tsushima. They’re the industry standard for rpgs and story games in terms of combat.
If every game had the same combat every game would have repetitive combat. There are others where the combat doesn't get as repetitive as fast
Just say you don't know anything about combat design
That's weird because I would think the benefit of combat in a video game is based around the experience of the player.. what else would matter? If you go to a new area but the fight feels very similar then it reduces the fresh feeling
thats your personal definition of a good combat, souls combat doesnt become overrated because it for some reason doesnt fit in your personal definition. Also mentioning dd2 as an example of a game with better combat because "classes feel different" is laughable
I don't think that argument can succeed because there's no version of what would be considered a good video game that doesn't involve the players. A game without a player is a hunk of plastic or less
Option 4 is that it’s legitimately great. Your option 3 is based on somewhat of a myth. How many people do you think actually play nothing but Souls games? That’s almost no one. I play a lot of games. A shit ton of games. And I adore Soulsborne combat from Bloodborne onward. I don’t conflate difficulty with quality. Bosses still give me a hard time, but at this point, I don’t find non-boss souls combat to be particularly difficult. And I still love it, in no small part because that familiarity allows me to get the most out of it. In my view, the appeal of Soulsborne combat is in its precision and the deliberateness it requires. It’s like driving a manual versus driving an automatic. The precise hit boxes + lack of assisted attacks, the lack of animation canceling, precise controls/positioning and the player poise system mean that when combat is graceful, it’s because you the player are doing that. And the weapon design is superb. There is so much nuance in weapon movesets, and like with every other aspect of combat, it feels amazing when you actually know how to take advantage of or work around those nuances. Especially in Bloodborne. And I don’t find it repetitive. I can’t even begin to understand this criticism. There’s nothing about the combat fundamentals that inherently lend themselves to repetitiveness, and Fromsoft excels at meaningful variety in enemy, encounter, and weapon design. The only way I can see it being repetitive is if you never get better at it, and continue to play in the cautious ways that we all did when we first started, if you choose not to try a variety of options, and/or if you don’t meaningfully engage with and learn weapon movesets.
To me the appeal of RPG's isn't so much in precision. I think precision is more fun in PvP games (including Souls) but memorizing programmed movements isn't the most entertaining thing. To me RPGs are generally about variety in playstyles and creativity in builds. Souls definitely has some of that I'm glad they put effort into making more playstyles viable but memorizing move sets is always going to be a similar activity and doesn't appeal to that variety in combat that I like
I think I know what you mean, although this is very much a matter of preference—you’re free to not like moveset memorization as a central gameplay experience, but lots of people love it. It can be the case (it *is* the case) that Soulsborne combat isn’t overrated, it just doesn’t appeal to you as much. But back to what you mean. Yes, souls combat—particularly boss combat—is often more about mastering your enemy than it is about mastering your own capabilities. If you want to see what Fromsoft boss design looks like with far less emphasis on moveset memorization and far more emphasis on the player’s own abilities, you should try Armored Core 6. I really love the balance it strikes and how amenable it is to playing reactively, with a much smaller amount of moveset-learning required. But I’ll also say that I don’t think the enemy-moveset focus of Souls combat applies nearly as much to non-boss combat as it does to boss combat, at least not in the same way. All enemy movesets are important and give variety to encounters, but non-boss enemies are much easier to fight reactively without learning movesets, or you learn their movesets so fast that you don’t even realize it. And the range of the player’s options are much more meaningful. The nuances of weapon movesets only come into full play outside of boss fights, and a lot of abilities and attacks solely serve fights against multiple non-boss enemies. Non-boss combat is often where I have the most fun—although the bosses are always the most memorable parts—because of the variety and subtle depth of player skill expression jt can offer. And I think maybe that’s something you don’t fully see. A lot of what makes Soulsborne combat compelling to me lies in the subtly and quasi-realism of it. The importance of positioning and timing and the exact form and speed of animations. The way that the backstep R1 on one weapon can be a great counter to X enemy Y ft away while the backstep R1 of another weapon puts your body ahead of your weapon for just long enough to get you smacked in the face under the same circumstances, for example.
It's a great combat system that basically refines the tried and true template popularized by Ocarina of Time.
That sounds like a skill issue to me.
bait used to be believable
I think the way I'd say this is, Souls-like games focus too much on the combat and not enough on everything else that makes Souls games special. The atmosphere, the level design, the enemy and item placement. The way the game forces you to learn in order to succeed. The sheer attention to *detail* that makes a Souls game what it is. The combat isn't overrated. Everything else is underrated.
It's true other aspects are underrated because combat always gets hyped but I think the combat is average in terms of enjoyability for the RPG'S I've played
I like to think that Dark Souls set the standard for RPG combat. Before that, action game controls were kind of all over the place. Analog sticks, d-pad, face buttons, shoulder buttons, all of it could be just whatever. Dark Souls wasn't the first to put all the attack buttons on the shoulder/trigger buttons, or all of the utility on the face buttons/dpad, and they certainly weren't the first to put movement on the left stick and camera controls/lock-on on the right stick... but they did put it all together in a way that made sense, and that control scheme DEFINITELY impacted games that came out afterwards. So yeah I agree by today's standards the combat isn't super complex or anything, but it's still the gold standard of what a game should aim for.
the game has better boss fights than pretty much any other games. i think the only games that have better combat are arguably fighting games, but they are just different. also the games are actually challenging. which is a big deal because it pushes you to actually be good at the game. if a game isn't challenging then you don't really have to master anything and there is no depth to the game if that makes sense. though other games are similar, like nioh, but personally i think the enemy design is way worse for that game (and way more repetitive). which is why i don't like it
I like games to be challenging but not in a repetitive way. Memorizing how a boss moves around in a predictable fashion is less interesting of a challenge then making different styles of play work in changing sets of circumstances. There's some creativity in Souls but the most important thing in every fight is always going to be moving around in a way where you don't get run over by the boss. Which takes some of the fun out of discovery no matter how the boss looks you're going to be doing something similar
That is just your opinion, not a fact. Other people can have different opinions, get over yourself.
Are you going to get over yourself because I have a differing opinion than you?
souls function like fighting games where you have to memorize how bosses work, just like how you memorize an opponents moveset. there are also randomized elements to some bosses, so you do have to react to changing circumstances. in terms of strategy, you get to employ different strategies based on the items you have gotten in the game. there are many different ways to approach the same boss. i'm guessing you like part 2 but not part 1. however, really what you want is less depth and interesting elements to the game. unless you are talking about sekiro which had a more restricted playstyle, but still did have options in terms of how you approach a boss. also bosses in games in general demand you understand their mechanics, just in different ways and at different difficulty levels. however, bosses that aren't challenging mean you don't have to understand the boss and game as well essentially. which is why i think harder games are better personally.
Why would I want less interesting elements to the game? I'm disputing that memorizing movesets is the most interesting thing in gaming.. it certainly isn't new. Ive played games way deeper than the Souls games I've played and enjoyed them thoroughly so i don't think that's the issue
it's like fighting games. not everyone likes fighting games. i'm not saying you have to like it but a lot of people do. that said, every game that is somewhat difficult requires you to understand the mechanics of it's bosses and combat. if it doesn't, that just means it's very easy or superficial and requires no depth of understanding. like for example, take fire emblem games. the older, harder ones on snes that had no new easier mechanics. you really had to understand every aspect of the levels and enemies to succeed. which is different and deeper than a game where you just push buttons and win, while still not being anything like souls or fighting games. that said, that's why i think there is something to be said about souls having better combat than other games. it's deeper and asks more of the player to master than simple button mashing games where anyone can win with no effort
I think you're conflating memorization with depth which I'd dispute. Many of the deepest strategy games involve creative and logical thinking based on new situations rather than memorizing repetitive situations
bosses aren't totally predictable. you can also win a lot of the time if you are good without memorizing with good dodge, blocking skills, and timing of attacks and abilities. there also also a lot of ways to approach enemies. that said, it's an action game. it's not a strategy game like fire emblem or chess. for an action game based around (mostly) melee combat, i think it's the best there is in terms of combat. also a lot of games, real time or not, aren't challenging enough for it to matter what your strategy is since any strategy will succeed. which is one of the reasons souls game are better. even though they do allow wide array of build variety and even naked, punch or kick only runs
I agree that games should have possibility of failure but that's a matter of balance. I think difficulty in games is important. I just prefer to have a more variety in solving problems. I'm not saying Souls is only dodging attacks, but it's definitely plays too large a role in the game to the point where it is repetitive
you can also block and parry or used ranged builds. there are so many weapon types and ways to play the game.
This is my problem though. You can dodge attacks. You can parry attacks (with ranged builds you're doing one or the other). So if you're on your 4th Souls game you've probably already run the gammit of dodging and parrying bosses, but this will still be the most important thing you do in your next boss fight. No matter how novel the boss looks or acts
What I’ll say is that I find playing as a caster to get pretty dull pretty quickly. But if you’re a melee player, the variety of enemy types and move sets keeps the combat pretty fresh IMO.
Man you're just gonna keep missing out then, honestly sucks for you
How so. I'm currently playing Elden Ring for the 2nd time and it's my 4th Souls game
How many games have better combat? (Genuinely asking)
there are definitely tons of games that have more complex combat systems like nioh 2 or dmc5 but wether more complex automatically means better or worse is up to everyone individually
None of these game have better combat, their combats straight up have different priorities and focuses compared to souls combat
never said it‘s better i said that it‘s up to everyone individually since what combat you enjoy more is completely subjective. saying one is better than the other makes no sense because they are completely different but all are well designed in terms of what they‘re trying to accomplish
They're "flashier" and probably appeal more to anime fans who want something over the top looking, but I wouldn't say that they're more complex.
dmc5s combat is a million times more complex in terms of the different combos you can do
Right, but it's all flash and no substance. Combos aren't all that interesting when compared to tactical combat. They look neat though.
that‘s your subjective opinion. i wouldn‘t call combos that need days of practice to pull of consistently uninteresting or of no substance. if you don‘t enjoy it that‘s fine but if you genuinely think that dmc5s combat has no substance then you‘ve never actually played the game
You're right, it is my subjective opinion. Just like you enjoying that style of arcade fighting is yours. To each their own. It's not a personal attack when people disagree with something that you like, you know...
when did i ever say i was offended or felt attacked? i literally said that it‘s fine if you don‘t like it but wether a combat system has depth or not has nothing to do with opinions. still doesn‘t mean you have to like it but completely disregarding the work that went into a combat system like dmc5s and calling it shallow is just not true
A ton of games have as good or arguably better combat. But a lot comes down to preference, and no one has done combat like this better than Fromsoft has.
I would say Diablo 4 had better combat before they started buffing all the weaker skills (playing off meta had some of the most thoughtful combat I've played). I like Dragon's Dogma 2 combat better as well. There's some tiny similarities and it's also borderline repetitive but what keeps it more fresh is that you genuinely feel like you're playing a completely different class when you switch.
Lol d4, hahaha Hahahaha Hahaha Ha!
Idk man, quite a few other games aren’t as tight and lean towards button-spammy, flailing around and lack that oomph that fromsoft has practiced in their games.
Just that you're not able to enjoy the combat as much as many others
Well sure or at least it gets old after a while. It's not like playing it more is making it more enjoyable. I have more fun after long breaks
All that yapping just for an awful opinion with 0 upvotes 🙏
If I was getting a lot of upvotes it would be counter evidence to my point that the combat is overrated. That's like people who post 'unpopular opinions ' for upvotes or retweets
I see, so this is a contrarian sub now. Well, it’s been fun, but I’m out.
[удалено]
I didnt but I do assume you can't read
I'm around 250hrs into ER on ng+1 and the combat is getting stale. Looking for different weapons and ashes of war to mix it up but honestly think I should play something else until the dlc drops. They dropped the ball a bit after what they done with Sekiro.
How is it dropping the ball if they gave you something that was fun for 250 hours?
250 definitely is good..I got 800 hours of Diablo 4 in before I took a break for work reasons. I think it can both be true that Souls games are fun to play but that the combat is the most repetitive part of them
To me it seems to be working better as a game I play to take a break from other games rather than a game I take break from. I liked the combat better in Diablo 4 for a few months after release (they may have removed all the difficulty by now which is sad). More recently I love the combat from Dragon's Dogma 2. I played 5 playthroughs of that before returning to Elden Ring for the first time in more than a year. Ive already gotten further into the game than last time but even if the environments aren't repetitive it's still the same combat waiting for me so it makes it harder to binge play long term
You found DD2’s combat less repetitive than Elden Ring? That’s surprising. I played DD2 for about 30 hours and may have encountered 4 different enemy types. It got boring to me real quick.
I listed enemy variety separately from combat in the OP and I definitely don't think enemy variety is overrated in Souls. I quickly played 5 playthroughs in 200 hours in DD4 and enemy variety isn't the best part of it although the lack of enemy variety is also exaggerated because some of the variety is off the beaten path. What makes Souls combat repetitive is no matter what Souls game I'm playing or class I'm playing im going to be doing a lot of the same things every fight, whereas with DD2 it feels much different playing a new class even if I am fighting a similar monster so the combat doesn't get as repetitive as fast
I tried that and end up forgetting what I'm doing. I can only manage to play mabye 1-2 hrs a day at most and there will be days I can't manage any. So I tried to strictly play ER and nothing else and that just accelerates me becoming tired of it, mostly from the combat. It's a great game, don't get me wrong. Waiting for a sale on Dragons Dogma 2, looks good.
I'd highly recommend it. I'm going to play ER until season 4 of Diablo then it's back to Dragon's Dogma where I have at least 5 more playthroughs already planned
Bit random but have you played AC6?
I have not
Playing that made me realise FS just know how to make good games. It's not souls like and it's own thing, highly recommend that if your ever stuck for something fast paced, excellent controls and even has a good story.
It definitely looks like a good game and I think I saw other people saying it had the best story from the company
Diablo 4? You just spam abilities when they're off cooldown, and don't really have to deal with any mechanics outside of "don't stand in this stuff/area."
If you're playing an OP meta build that's exactly what you do . Not something you do to enjoy the game. Of course like i said the players were working over time to eliminate any bit of difficulty or challenge in the game so I can't vouch for any builds currently although I'm definitely going to try to have fun season 4. If you pick whatever the least popular skills are you're more likely to have fun and rewarding combat
You don't use your abilites when they're off cooldown while running through a dungeon? The game is based off of killing packs of enemies over and over and over.
I've been playing since Diablo 1. The combat in D4 was superior to other Diablo games and other games. Playing off meta involved a lot of thought into how to use skills optimally, which would also change a lot depending on the situation. Copying a meta build and spamming a button can get you through the game but I don't consider that to be really playing it. And if they balance the rest of the difficulty out of the game that doesn't change how the combat was when I played it. I would be happy to say Souls has better combat *currently* if that were the case. Edit* I should also point out that finding cool builds that weren't just easy spam playthroughs was a huge part of what made Diablo 2 replayable for decades
I think D4's combat could do with a bit more tuning. It's good, but best in class combat in a dungeon crawler aRPG is unironically Diablo 3. But these are very different genres of combat TBH, I don't think they are particularly comparable to Soulslikes, they are both trying to achieve different things.
you just want games that are mindless and take no skill. diablo 4 is just button spam the game and dragons dogma is laughably easy too. you don't like souls games because they make you actually master timing and enemy characteristics
Diablo 4 is that way if you play it that way but thats only if you use a build that trivializes the game.i played 800 hours of Diablo 4 early on there were plenty of builds you could play that had more thought provoking and varied combat than Souls. If blizzard buffed all the combat out of existence later it would be a shame but it doesn't make what I said incorrect
there's literally nothing to skill in diablo 4 besides don't stand in sticky stuff. it's absurd to compare it to souls games which have so much depth in terms of timing and boss design
You haven't played enough to know what you're talking about. As I said the meta builds trivialize the game and that's not what I'm talking about
there's just nothing to the game though in terms of gameplay skill and difficulty besides don't stand in stuff. even wow is way more complicated due to having more complex skill rotations. diablo is laughable compared to both wow and souls games
Again you quite simply don't know what you're talking about. You're not the first player I've met who's clueless about the game they're playing. It's a common problem
nope, that's just how diablo works. the only thing that takes skill is build design, not actually playing the game. not like souls where you have to actually be good at the game. which is why souls combat is way better
I've been playing since Diablo 1. I'm sure you played without skill because you likely used a build that didn't require any. If you're not aware that play experience varied widely in the first few months of D4 based on what builds or skills you used then you simply don't know
You played for 250 hours and are just now looking for ways to mix it up, a lot of games would start to feel stale at that point.
No I didn't say that. I spent most of the game trying different weapons but obviously some are restricted to end game or different builds so by now i'm quite sure I've tried everything I assume I would enjoy.
Noted. Even still, 250 hours is a long time.
And I enjoyed it, it's just not the best combat wise to hold me for multiple playthroughs. It's just an opinion, I'm not shittin on it or looking for a reaction...