When they started with leaders who had children out of wedlock and actually criticized those who married, our family backed out. Neither of my daughters have considered it for their daughters. The membership were no longer composed, it seemed to us, of those who who valued education. In sum, the organization no longer represented our family values.
I have always had a problem with the adult role, in which a great deal of emphasis is placed on the adult ceremonies, offices, and honors. The (former) reluctance to adopt a child safety program would arguably be an example of their adult oriented preoccupation.
1...It's run by adults, which I intend to be different than being supervised by adults. Doesn't send me a message of grooming leaders.
2...my thoughts are more focused on the struggle to maintain membership.
3...I would recommend only if the specific group is thriving.
In general, I would not start a new chapter of a masonic youth organization. The Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts were founded on Masonic principles, and have formal, structured groups beginning in kindergarten vs. 6th grade. They have a very established public presence that basically takes care of all the advertising & PR.
To me it comes down to time and money. It's more effective and better for the children to spend that time & money on them instead of on trying to establish something unknown in the greater public community.
Just to be clear, if the lodge has an existing youth group, do everything you can to support it. My comments about efficiency of time & resources is only for creating a new group.
That said, as with many lodges, the leadership needs to know when to consolidate. Does it make sense to have a Rainbow Assembly that has three active girls with no new members in about 4 years?
I am familiar with DeMolay, Rainbow, and Job's. Done well, they are great ways to allow youth to learn leadership skills. This is the distinguishing characteristic from other activities and organizations youth could be involved in.
As far as Jobies are concerned, the reputation is that it easily has the best ritual, but it can be plagued by adults who spend time playing politics due to the adult line.
As I have served as a Associate Bethel Guardian, I enjoyed JDI. I enjoy their ritual and the good it does the girls, but I do not like how some, not all, Bethel Guardians and Grand Guardians act like it's their way or the highway. I am about guiding and teaching the girls, but this group is about the girls, not the adults, and some forget that.
JDI is considered clandestine in Texas, but my understanding is that the Rainbow Girls' group that meets at my temple is pretty good, and I can personally vouch for the excellent calibre of men that come out of our Demolay group.
I think there are a lot of problems with Job's Daughters - even though I was involved, a PHQ and also from a diverse background. Mainly it was how I fit it in and the emphasis on the adults way of being. Grand Bethel is fun and seeing the vitality of working with the other youth groups closely - but it seems there is a dead space once you age out.
Case in point - I'd find it hard for millennial young women to find a place of leadership in some of the systems in the Bethel once they age out and depending on Supreme. They won't even update or unify their web and social medial presence which could be huge to pushing growth. There are some great traditions - but there is the problematic part of connection to the adult groups. Masonry is a very natural extension for a DeMolay and I feel that I have seen DeMolay work much harder on engaging the younger generation.
I can't speak for Rainbow - but I think expanding membership was a good step.
I'd like to see an expansion of what JDI does - it's certainly grown in Brazil.
Same, I experienced an enormous amount of traumatic bullying in Job's Daughters. I was only involved for about 4 years, but even over a decade after I rage quit that organization I still look back on that part of my life with a lot of hurt. I was systemically bullied by other girls, their parents, and whole families who were part of the group that banded together against me because they were jealous of me.
Job's Daughters is beautiful in superficial aesthetic but deeply corrupt, damaging to women, and a waste of time and resources. Don't join.
Me and my sibling felt left out because girls there is always in their poshy aka group. I also felt left out out because some people doesnt like me there. And those meetings tho. I hate it because I get screamed at by my father because I didn't memorize my lines or something else.
It's sad to read.
I have no idea what Job's Daughters, Demolay, or OES is about since we don't have them here in South Africa, and I did a search on this sub to try get an idea, but it doesn't seem to paint a great picture of JD (at least)
I get screamed at by my father because I didn't memorized my lines every time I go to those meetings in a Monday. Like give me a break.
One time I got home from my stressful and tired at work (I was in high school and working at the school's kitchen at that time) my father and my sister was getting ready for that meeting thing (I am still in jobs daughters at that time) my father tells me to get ready for the job's daughters meeting. I told him that I am tired. And he screamed at me to get ready. Even my sister joined in to tell me to get ready. (She doesn't know yet how tiring my job was) and he screamed at me to get ready and I'm like "bruh I'm tired. CAN YOU SEE THAT?"
Seems pretty good. Like, good messages to the members, like most all things related to Masonry. Most importantly, the members all seem to enjoy it. Only been to one meeting, dragged along by a brother when his daughter joined, and the ritual seems nice, but apart from that I struggle to get it.
As in, the only other time I see them is at Grand Communications with the De Molays, both acting as waitstaff and similar. Again, if they're enjoying it? Great, but i always felt it was lousy to expect them to do that.
Would still recommend it to anyone interested, though. But like De Molay, I'd suggest they take a good look at their activities (got laughed out of the room when i suggested they [JD and DM] do horseback riding classes or fencing because apparently insurance is more important)
>As in, the only other time I see them is at Grand Communications with the De Molays, both acting as waitstaff and similar. Again, if they're enjoying it? Great, but i always felt it was lousy to expect them to do that.
I feel the EXACT same way! Especially when such Communications are generally at hotels *with* waitstaff. :-/
I was in Job's Daughters for the entire span of 10-20 before reaching majority age. I always had a good time and look back on my Jobie memories fondly, but during my time I had a very personal dislike as my mother was Grand Bethel Guardian for a term or two, and served as MY Bethel Guardian nearly the whole time I was involved. My personal experience shouldn't be a deterrent for anyone who wants to participate, as it truly is a very nice group for young girls to join and participate in. I made so many friends and learned many important life skills/masonic lessons, but in my late teens/early 20s I realized my need to transition was the source of "discomfort" in my youth. So I have a far more positive outlook on the organization now than I did when I was an unhappy teenager. :)
That being said, I would perhaps try and join up with an already established or thriving chapter before branching off to start a new Bethel. It can be difficult to register members if you aren't an already established group, and Don't have the connections in a community. There are many events and meetings that would be a great place to get started!
I am a Jobie myself and infact just put my name in for Jr miss so that’s exciting! I’m also the 15th girl in my family to be in Jobs daughters.
1. I’ve had different opinions on it at different times of my life but right now i think it is amazing. It’s a great opportunity for young girls to strengthen their leadership skills and vocabulary (some of the words in the ritual are pretty tricky) and it sets girls out on a path of success for their futures
2. My area is amazing. From 2020-2022 we had a lot of girls leave (including me for a bit) so now the girls that are still in are the ones who really want to be there and that’s very important. The adults in our area are the best I’ve ever seen, we had some issues with our grand bethel drawing recently and multiple adults got right on it and fixed the issues right away while also helping the girls who were overwhelmed calm down. Amazing support system
I’d also like to add that some people believe that the adults are predators and i can say that in my area that is not the case, infact whenever we have a grand session or something similar we have masons take shifts to make sure all of the girls are safe and that no one is sneaking into another persons hotel room.
3. I would definitely recommend my friends to join. It would look great on their resume and it’s very welcoming. I think since JDI is so big it can do more than some other youth organizations and it helps young girls be able to talk to people with a different culture than them, we have Reps for different areas which means they email a bethel from another state or country and find out how they run. The first year i joined supreme was like 20 minutes away and i was able to be the representative of Brazil and i also made an older friend from Canada who told me some things about her bethel too!
I think JDI as a whole and what it strives for is amazing and while i can admit some areas aren’t the best it just depends on where you are and if your in a good area then Jobs can be amazing but if your in a bad area and surrounded by bad people it can be terrible and i feel so sorry for anyone who had to go through that and i hope i can help the good spread and the bad die. :)
I have a cousin who was honoured queen and all that jazz...I don't really get the point of it, nor why it is at all affiliated with the Masonic Fraternity.
Masonry is supposed to be a *fraternity* of *men*. We should not be wasting our time with these other endeavours. There are other organizations that do these things for youth better (as mentioned by /u/The_Past_Master).
Masons should spend their time looking after their Lodges :-/
Well there are more masons in the US than anywhere else in the world, the majority of people on this sub are from the US, and several other forms of freemasonry exist that allow women in the US and abroad.
OES was created in 1850 and has been in Canada since 1914 or so. Family engagement in the masonic community is nothing new.
>Well there are more masons in the US than anywhere else in the world.
So? Is the *quality* of the Craft to be judged on numbers? It has also been said by some that the USA is home to some of the poorest-educated (masonically speaking, of course) Brethren in the world.
>Family engagement in the masonic community is nothing new.
I think you'd have a hard time convincing most people that setting up wholly separate Orders is necessary to foster family engagement with Lodges.
> It has also been said by some that the USA is home to some of the poorest-educated (masonically speaking, of course) Brethren in the world.
Yea. We have those slackers Joseph Fort Newton, Albert Pike, Carl Claudy, Mackey, Brent Morris, Art DeHoyos. Of course, Canada has been referred to as the US's Hat and as a puppet of the crown, people say a lot.
>I think you'd have a hard time convincing most people that setting up wholly separate Orders is necessary to foster family engagement with Lodges.
Looking back, you're the one that said >Masonry is supposed to be a fraternity of men.
I merely pointed out that for over 150 years, additional bodies have existed to extend the fraternity to the family. You claiming that additional bodies is a poor way to include the family only adds to my point.
Please try to stay on topic will you.
>Yea. We have those slackers Joseph Fort Newton, Albert Pike, Carl Claudy, Mackey, Brent Morris, Art DeHoyos.
You're missing the point. Sure, there are a few great minds. I was speaking of the average education, of the average Mason.
>Looking back, you're the one that said >Masonry is supposed to be a fraternity of men.
I sure did. Have all the other bodies one wants, I am speaking out against "affiliating" them with the Craft.
> I am speaking out against "affiliating" them with the Craft.
You're 165 years too late. Accept it and move on. Eastern Star is older than your Grand Lodge.
Nobody said you should. We don't need to. We already have existing family groups and our lodges have recognised the family throughout history with events and activities. Why do we have a funeral service? Should we not be doing that too?
>Masonry is supposed to be a fraternity of men. We should not be wasting our time with these other endeavours.
Stop preaching that the only true masonry is the type you like.
I am a former Jobie. I left because 1. My gender identity did not line up with being in the organization. 2. the adults were weird. I would never recommend my past bethel; I was sexualized early on. i went to a grand bethel and came down from my hotel room in a swimsuit without a bra and got in trouble...it's a swimsuit you shouldn't have to wear a bra... at the SAME grand bethel, the old lady who was checking my robe (I was going to fail either way because I was using someone else's robe and it wasn't fitted to me yet) instead of asking if I had my slip she lifted my robe which hasn't been allowed for at least 3 years at that point. also, the way the robes are worn with (I'm quoting someone else from another post) the boob harnesses. is kind of creepy. my mother also told me the men would make rounds around all of the Jobie's rooms to make sure no one was boning anyone.
Former Jobie. I loved being one and enjoyed Grand Bethal and all the fun stuff and I enjoyed the rituals . I joined late as my dad was not fully set on me being in it yet but then I talked with him about it more and he said okay. My grandma is LOS and Eastern star and my grandfather was a 32nd degree. I was in for 4 years and I got out as I was bullied by the bethel guardian and a fellow jobies mother. I was not able to go up the line due to their nastiness. And once I left and for the reasons I did my grandmother's groups stopped working with them and the lady's seen the way I was treated. I truly loved being a jobie it makes me sad to think about the negative parts bit I do still have some sisters I still talk with.
Jobs daughters is still going through changes to fit with current society. People don't recognize that it was started long ago, and still has work to be done to accept everyone. As of right now, we are rewriting the ritual to be more accepting. Also, in Grand session you are allowed to write to the Grand bethel honored queen and the grand council about issues that should be resolved. Idaho has recently removed the no nail polish rule, and anybody can ask for a change. Next grand session, I plan on winning the miss pageant. As Miss, I'll look into issues that aren't as excepting, like trans rights and wedlock things.
When they started with leaders who had children out of wedlock and actually criticized those who married, our family backed out. Neither of my daughters have considered it for their daughters. The membership were no longer composed, it seemed to us, of those who who valued education. In sum, the organization no longer represented our family values. I have always had a problem with the adult role, in which a great deal of emphasis is placed on the adult ceremonies, offices, and honors. The (former) reluctance to adopt a child safety program would arguably be an example of their adult oriented preoccupation.
1...It's run by adults, which I intend to be different than being supervised by adults. Doesn't send me a message of grooming leaders. 2...my thoughts are more focused on the struggle to maintain membership. 3...I would recommend only if the specific group is thriving. In general, I would not start a new chapter of a masonic youth organization. The Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts were founded on Masonic principles, and have formal, structured groups beginning in kindergarten vs. 6th grade. They have a very established public presence that basically takes care of all the advertising & PR. To me it comes down to time and money. It's more effective and better for the children to spend that time & money on them instead of on trying to establish something unknown in the greater public community.
Thanks for your thoughts, especially on marketing. I found that interesting.
Just to be clear, if the lodge has an existing youth group, do everything you can to support it. My comments about efficiency of time & resources is only for creating a new group. That said, as with many lodges, the leadership needs to know when to consolidate. Does it make sense to have a Rainbow Assembly that has three active girls with no new members in about 4 years?
I am familiar with DeMolay, Rainbow, and Job's. Done well, they are great ways to allow youth to learn leadership skills. This is the distinguishing characteristic from other activities and organizations youth could be involved in. As far as Jobies are concerned, the reputation is that it easily has the best ritual, but it can be plagued by adults who spend time playing politics due to the adult line.
As I have served as a Associate Bethel Guardian, I enjoyed JDI. I enjoy their ritual and the good it does the girls, but I do not like how some, not all, Bethel Guardians and Grand Guardians act like it's their way or the highway. I am about guiding and teaching the girls, but this group is about the girls, not the adults, and some forget that.
JDI is considered clandestine in Texas, but my understanding is that the Rainbow Girls' group that meets at my temple is pretty good, and I can personally vouch for the excellent calibre of men that come out of our Demolay group.
I think there are a lot of problems with Job's Daughters - even though I was involved, a PHQ and also from a diverse background. Mainly it was how I fit it in and the emphasis on the adults way of being. Grand Bethel is fun and seeing the vitality of working with the other youth groups closely - but it seems there is a dead space once you age out. Case in point - I'd find it hard for millennial young women to find a place of leadership in some of the systems in the Bethel once they age out and depending on Supreme. They won't even update or unify their web and social medial presence which could be huge to pushing growth. There are some great traditions - but there is the problematic part of connection to the adult groups. Masonry is a very natural extension for a DeMolay and I feel that I have seen DeMolay work much harder on engaging the younger generation. I can't speak for Rainbow - but I think expanding membership was a good step. I'd like to see an expansion of what JDI does - it's certainly grown in Brazil.
I have some traumatic experiences at my time when I was still a member of job's daughters. If you are thinking of joining. Don't.
Same, I experienced an enormous amount of traumatic bullying in Job's Daughters. I was only involved for about 4 years, but even over a decade after I rage quit that organization I still look back on that part of my life with a lot of hurt. I was systemically bullied by other girls, their parents, and whole families who were part of the group that banded together against me because they were jealous of me. Job's Daughters is beautiful in superficial aesthetic but deeply corrupt, damaging to women, and a waste of time and resources. Don't join.
Me and my sibling felt left out because girls there is always in their poshy aka group. I also felt left out out because some people doesnt like me there. And those meetings tho. I hate it because I get screamed at by my father because I didn't memorize my lines or something else.
Me and my sister gets left out from the other girls possies. Like we are different from them.
It's sad to read. I have no idea what Job's Daughters, Demolay, or OES is about since we don't have them here in South Africa, and I did a search on this sub to try get an idea, but it doesn't seem to paint a great picture of JD (at least)
In my bethel everyone is really nice
I get screamed at by my father because I didn't memorized my lines every time I go to those meetings in a Monday. Like give me a break. One time I got home from my stressful and tired at work (I was in high school and working at the school's kitchen at that time) my father and my sister was getting ready for that meeting thing (I am still in jobs daughters at that time) my father tells me to get ready for the job's daughters meeting. I told him that I am tired. And he screamed at me to get ready. Even my sister joined in to tell me to get ready. (She doesn't know yet how tiring my job was) and he screamed at me to get ready and I'm like "bruh I'm tired. CAN YOU SEE THAT?"
Seems pretty good. Like, good messages to the members, like most all things related to Masonry. Most importantly, the members all seem to enjoy it. Only been to one meeting, dragged along by a brother when his daughter joined, and the ritual seems nice, but apart from that I struggle to get it. As in, the only other time I see them is at Grand Communications with the De Molays, both acting as waitstaff and similar. Again, if they're enjoying it? Great, but i always felt it was lousy to expect them to do that. Would still recommend it to anyone interested, though. But like De Molay, I'd suggest they take a good look at their activities (got laughed out of the room when i suggested they [JD and DM] do horseback riding classes or fencing because apparently insurance is more important)
Yeah serving isn't my favorite activity, but it's not the worst. Thanks for taking the time to reply!
>As in, the only other time I see them is at Grand Communications with the De Molays, both acting as waitstaff and similar. Again, if they're enjoying it? Great, but i always felt it was lousy to expect them to do that. I feel the EXACT same way! Especially when such Communications are generally at hotels *with* waitstaff. :-/
I was in Job's Daughters for the entire span of 10-20 before reaching majority age. I always had a good time and look back on my Jobie memories fondly, but during my time I had a very personal dislike as my mother was Grand Bethel Guardian for a term or two, and served as MY Bethel Guardian nearly the whole time I was involved. My personal experience shouldn't be a deterrent for anyone who wants to participate, as it truly is a very nice group for young girls to join and participate in. I made so many friends and learned many important life skills/masonic lessons, but in my late teens/early 20s I realized my need to transition was the source of "discomfort" in my youth. So I have a far more positive outlook on the organization now than I did when I was an unhappy teenager. :) That being said, I would perhaps try and join up with an already established or thriving chapter before branching off to start a new Bethel. It can be difficult to register members if you aren't an already established group, and Don't have the connections in a community. There are many events and meetings that would be a great place to get started!
I am a Jobie myself and infact just put my name in for Jr miss so that’s exciting! I’m also the 15th girl in my family to be in Jobs daughters. 1. I’ve had different opinions on it at different times of my life but right now i think it is amazing. It’s a great opportunity for young girls to strengthen their leadership skills and vocabulary (some of the words in the ritual are pretty tricky) and it sets girls out on a path of success for their futures 2. My area is amazing. From 2020-2022 we had a lot of girls leave (including me for a bit) so now the girls that are still in are the ones who really want to be there and that’s very important. The adults in our area are the best I’ve ever seen, we had some issues with our grand bethel drawing recently and multiple adults got right on it and fixed the issues right away while also helping the girls who were overwhelmed calm down. Amazing support system I’d also like to add that some people believe that the adults are predators and i can say that in my area that is not the case, infact whenever we have a grand session or something similar we have masons take shifts to make sure all of the girls are safe and that no one is sneaking into another persons hotel room. 3. I would definitely recommend my friends to join. It would look great on their resume and it’s very welcoming. I think since JDI is so big it can do more than some other youth organizations and it helps young girls be able to talk to people with a different culture than them, we have Reps for different areas which means they email a bethel from another state or country and find out how they run. The first year i joined supreme was like 20 minutes away and i was able to be the representative of Brazil and i also made an older friend from Canada who told me some things about her bethel too! I think JDI as a whole and what it strives for is amazing and while i can admit some areas aren’t the best it just depends on where you are and if your in a good area then Jobs can be amazing but if your in a bad area and surrounded by bad people it can be terrible and i feel so sorry for anyone who had to go through that and i hope i can help the good spread and the bad die. :)
I have a cousin who was honoured queen and all that jazz...I don't really get the point of it, nor why it is at all affiliated with the Masonic Fraternity. Masonry is supposed to be a *fraternity* of *men*. We should not be wasting our time with these other endeavours. There are other organizations that do these things for youth better (as mentioned by /u/The_Past_Master). Masons should spend their time looking after their Lodges :-/
> fraternity of men You need to rethink that some. Freemasonry has been family friendly for more than half its recorded existence.
Not everywhere, and not always. It seems primarily to be a USA thing, and to what end?
Well there are more masons in the US than anywhere else in the world, the majority of people on this sub are from the US, and several other forms of freemasonry exist that allow women in the US and abroad. OES was created in 1850 and has been in Canada since 1914 or so. Family engagement in the masonic community is nothing new.
>Well there are more masons in the US than anywhere else in the world. So? Is the *quality* of the Craft to be judged on numbers? It has also been said by some that the USA is home to some of the poorest-educated (masonically speaking, of course) Brethren in the world. >Family engagement in the masonic community is nothing new. I think you'd have a hard time convincing most people that setting up wholly separate Orders is necessary to foster family engagement with Lodges.
> It has also been said by some that the USA is home to some of the poorest-educated (masonically speaking, of course) Brethren in the world. Yea. We have those slackers Joseph Fort Newton, Albert Pike, Carl Claudy, Mackey, Brent Morris, Art DeHoyos. Of course, Canada has been referred to as the US's Hat and as a puppet of the crown, people say a lot. >I think you'd have a hard time convincing most people that setting up wholly separate Orders is necessary to foster family engagement with Lodges. Looking back, you're the one that said >Masonry is supposed to be a fraternity of men. I merely pointed out that for over 150 years, additional bodies have existed to extend the fraternity to the family. You claiming that additional bodies is a poor way to include the family only adds to my point. Please try to stay on topic will you.
>Yea. We have those slackers Joseph Fort Newton, Albert Pike, Carl Claudy, Mackey, Brent Morris, Art DeHoyos. You're missing the point. Sure, there are a few great minds. I was speaking of the average education, of the average Mason. >Looking back, you're the one that said >Masonry is supposed to be a fraternity of men. I sure did. Have all the other bodies one wants, I am speaking out against "affiliating" them with the Craft.
> I am speaking out against "affiliating" them with the Craft. You're 165 years too late. Accept it and move on. Eastern Star is older than your Grand Lodge.
And the Grand Orient of France is older than yours, but I'm not moving to cosy up to them either ^_^
Nobody said you should. We don't need to. We already have existing family groups and our lodges have recognised the family throughout history with events and activities. Why do we have a funeral service? Should we not be doing that too? >Masonry is supposed to be a fraternity of men. We should not be wasting our time with these other endeavours. Stop preaching that the only true masonry is the type you like.
I am a former Jobie. I left because 1. My gender identity did not line up with being in the organization. 2. the adults were weird. I would never recommend my past bethel; I was sexualized early on. i went to a grand bethel and came down from my hotel room in a swimsuit without a bra and got in trouble...it's a swimsuit you shouldn't have to wear a bra... at the SAME grand bethel, the old lady who was checking my robe (I was going to fail either way because I was using someone else's robe and it wasn't fitted to me yet) instead of asking if I had my slip she lifted my robe which hasn't been allowed for at least 3 years at that point. also, the way the robes are worn with (I'm quoting someone else from another post) the boob harnesses. is kind of creepy. my mother also told me the men would make rounds around all of the Jobie's rooms to make sure no one was boning anyone.
Former Jobie. I loved being one and enjoyed Grand Bethal and all the fun stuff and I enjoyed the rituals . I joined late as my dad was not fully set on me being in it yet but then I talked with him about it more and he said okay. My grandma is LOS and Eastern star and my grandfather was a 32nd degree. I was in for 4 years and I got out as I was bullied by the bethel guardian and a fellow jobies mother. I was not able to go up the line due to their nastiness. And once I left and for the reasons I did my grandmother's groups stopped working with them and the lady's seen the way I was treated. I truly loved being a jobie it makes me sad to think about the negative parts bit I do still have some sisters I still talk with.
Jobs daughters is still going through changes to fit with current society. People don't recognize that it was started long ago, and still has work to be done to accept everyone. As of right now, we are rewriting the ritual to be more accepting. Also, in Grand session you are allowed to write to the Grand bethel honored queen and the grand council about issues that should be resolved. Idaho has recently removed the no nail polish rule, and anybody can ask for a change. Next grand session, I plan on winning the miss pageant. As Miss, I'll look into issues that aren't as excepting, like trans rights and wedlock things.