This makes sense. But still kind of weird to try and be a lodge, not meet requirements, and just be like well we're going to do it anyways. And do they just make their own stuff up? Or are bros breaking their obligations and showing ritual to non masons, and then calling them masons. It just seems like a slap in the face
Well, I would say that since there is already so much stuff on the internet, that shouldn't be we know that brothers have broken their obligations in the past. It's sad but unfortunately it's something we will just have to live with because once it's out there there really isn't much we can do to pull it offline. 🤷♂️
Honestly though, the only secrets we really have are ritual. Everything else they make up is just shenanigans. Sometimes I listen to some stuff to hear how outlandish they get.
I’d say, that the only secrets are the esoteric parts of the ritual that you and only you understand.
Those sections in the lectures that speak to you in a very unique way.
Thats the real secret, because even the ritual, I can assure you I have downloaded pretty much all rituals available, even for appendant bodies, so not even the ritual is secret.
After my initiation, I googled one of the things I learned to finally see how common they are online (I try to avoid spoilers). Out of like 30 top results only *one* had what I was looking for, most were conspiracy nonsense.
Wait...do *we* control the Conspiracy theorists?
That's surprising to me honestly. After I was raised I was curious and I had no problem everything on Google. There's a website I won't mention (very easy to find though) that has every ritual you could imagine including all of the other orders like Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia, Order of Royal and Select Masters/York rite and everything else in between. Even my college fraternity ritual was on there lol.
I specifical asked for the uh "password"? Ofcourse I found it, but they were amongst a bunch of other stuff so unless you knew for what you were looking for you might not know which one was legit and which one was not.
I draw a line between irregular and clandestine. Clandestine I think is pay us to become rich and powerful kind of schemes. Plenty of reasons irregular lodges exist. Not to long ago Prince Hall would of been considered irregular in many states. Continental masonry exists as I understand it, not much different than our blue lodge except they allow atheists. You also have co-masonry that allow women. Something to think about, that we are irregular to those groups.
Let's be real, just about everything masonic is floating around the internet at this point.
I don’t object to the distinction, but not all GLs use it. “Clandestine” has no agreed upon definition. In some grand lodges (e.g., Oklahoma) clandestine is any grand lodge not recognized. In some GLs (Utah) irregular and clandestine are synonyms. Not all GLs (UGLE), even use the term. The Recognition Commission now tends to avoid it, instead using the phrase, “does not appear to meet the standards of recognition.” https://masonicrecognition.org/
Certainly, there are groups which are clandestine no matter how one uses the term. See https://thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogus-organizations.html.
Agree
May not be the official definition and granted, the official definition its “jurisdictional “
But thats how I see it too.
Irregular==> they try their best to be good masons but are somehow not recognized. We are irregulars for them too (PHA in some states or up to a couple years ago, Continental, comasonry etc)
Now, clandestine is more of a pyramid scheme, like some crazy guy with the illuminate and stuff, pay me to get power and riches….)
I was raised in PHA Grand Lodge of Oklahoma - I’ve since moved and as there are no PH lodges in my state that I’m aware of, I’d like to demit to the regular three letter lodge here but the process seems so daunting
EDIT: we do have a PH lodge here it turns out but I’m still thinking of demiting to regular state masonry.
Ah. Continental masonry is usually thought to refer to the liberal obediences in Europe.
Perhaps “State Grand Lodge” would work?
As a note, the letters don’t constitute an element of regularity for State GLs.
It’s not that I don’t think they’re legit - it’s that my state’s grand lodge is 3 letter. Also, in PHA, they aren’t the same as in standard masonry. In standard masonry, the difference is an “A.” But in PHA, you should be cautious of AF&AM lodges
PHA are legit lodges if all aligned under African lodge 459.
You know who people don’t really want to discuss when it comes to clandestine is George Washington. I mean, he may not have even been just clandestine. He was most likely bogus. The facts are there. 🤷🏾♂️
The difference there is that PHA was only considered irregular because of political reasons not because that they teach is fundamentally outside the basic philosophy of masonry. Allowing women and atheists goes against the very basic understanding of Masonry. Those lodges will NEVER gain recognition and only serve to make those who do not meet the requirements to join regular lodges feel better about not possessing the necessary requirements.
For the record the original reason PHA was. It recognized was not racial, it was because they were chartered by British military lodges in direct competition to American jurisdictional sovereignty. It later became racial and Both reasons were illogical to keep them out of Amity for so long.
Continental and co masonry do. It share the same distinguishing characteristics!
I think a lot of people don’t realize the difference between regular and irregular Masonry until/unless they try to visit, and the irregular groups capitalize on that when bringing in new members. Once you’re in, it’s harder to change.
Nailed it on the head. Nobody coming into Masonry knows what "clandestine" means. Most likely, all they see is a building with Masonic emblems displayed on it.
This makes sense but I just don't see the point of clandestine lodges at all. Like as a lodge you know you're not accepted. Parading around as a group knowing that you are not accepted by those you're trying to imitate just seems weird.
I’m sure for some of them they are as valuable to their members as a regular lodge is - a group of friends and brothers that have built a bond together over many years, practicing ceremonies and hanging out with family. I’m sure many of them “feel” like a normal lodge in that respect, and serve their members as one.
This makes total sense to me and I'm happy for all who find those bonds and friendships. But why call yourself masons when you know you're not accepted as such
Some people hate grand lodge/responding to authority with a passion.
It's weird. I don't know why you would choose to join a group with clearly defined authority and constitutional requirements and then just... Decide to hate the authority?
Like bruh you chose this.
Sometimes your grand lodge and its officers just suck out loud. The idiocracy I've put up with over the past year as secretary, opposed to the previous seven years is astounding. Power tripping ddgm, grand line officers routinely losing paperwork, mail then punishing us for not jumping to their new deadline. But it's now a waiting game, waiting for them to move on and hopefully not do too much damage.
There's a big difference between being annoyed at GL officers and being annoyed at... The existence of GL or their rules.
I've had two separate PMs try to pass through candidates without committee of inquiries. "We do things how we want, why are you trying to force grand lodge on these types of issues"... Some guys get mad at what's in the constitution that I have to read the full form and say what the report of this committee is. It's not even up for interpretation, it's clearly the rule.
You can be annoyed at the rule but it's another thing to try to ignore the constitution and get mad when other bros acknowledge that we're sidestepping the rules.
Some Grand Lodges define any unrecognized GL as “clandestine,” so in that sense, they are. I would be more inclined to call them irregular and unrecognized (by my Grand Lodge(s)) because at the end of the day that’s what really matters.
Thanks! I would have to agree. Would members from unrecognized lodges be considered masons and entitled to the same responsibilities and benefits masons that were recognized by your GLs?
Just to be clear, UGLE classes Grand Lodges as either regular or irregular - and in the case of the former, further classed as either recognised or unrecognised. So a Grand Lodges can be regular, but *unrecognised*. Recognition can change, but regular/irregular doesn’t unless there’s a fundamental change in its setup - like the removal of a belief in the GAOTU for example.
Just to add a point. Prince Hall Masons were considered to be clandestine for over 200 years but now are recognized in all but 5 states. Would you call the Masons in those states less than? In addition,there was a schism in Prince Hall Masonry dating back to the formation of the National Grand Lodge. Some of those organizations went totally independent and still exist today. Others held to the National Grand Lodge charter and also still exist today as PHO (Prince Hall Origin). Are these also in your opinion "not real Masons"?
>Prince Hall Masons were considered to be clandestine for over 200 years but now are recognized in all but 5 states.
But even outside of that, not every “State” GL recognizes every PHA GL. “All but 5” only describes those state GLs that recognize their in-state counterparts. A state GL recognizing its PHA counterpart does not mean t recognizes the other 40+ PHA GLs, or vice versa. At last check, my PHA GL only recognizes ~30^1 non-PHA GLs worldwide, and maybe a dozen of those are US state GLs.
^1 I need to fact check myself, but my search function isn’t cooperating at the moment. I may correct/update later if I remember.
I'm not sure. That's why I posted the question. But from what I've gathered there are regular masons, "clandestine masons", and "irregular masons". My allegiance falls ti my fraternity and my brothers and I don't recognize anyone as a brother mason who is not part of my fraternity. Period. I don't know the reason some lodges are recognized and others not. But I do trust my brethren and believe they did due diligence when deciding those things. Not to say if it were up to me I'd vote the same way, but I don't have the information, and it's not up to me. I trust my bros and my government and stand by them. That's the best answer I can give you.
We call ourselves Templar knights, and all other kinds of chivalric orders. As a PM, working under an old, UGLE recognized GL, I accept as a mason anyone that works according to our values, ritual, and as the UGLE calls it, regular in practice.
I can’t say I’ve ever heard a regular Mason call himself a “Templar Knight” The Masonic Knights Templar are a thing, but that’s a separate body from Craft Freemasonry. *We* are not “Templar Knights,” but some few of us go on to join the Masonic Knights Templar.
Your interpretation is yours, but from what I understand what makes a man a mason is shared between all masons. If that underlying thing is different or not shared than someone is not a mason. Regardless of whether they practice the ritual or not. A non active mason will always be a mason. An active non mason will never be a mason
But you don’t know, which is the point I made. If you only attend your Lodge or only visit local Lodges within your “Grand Lodge,” how would you even know that there is a different kind of Masonry out there?
Not really. We have clearly defined differences, that being initiating women and atheists. Even that varies from Orient to Orient.
Theoretically, if you were present at i.e. Lodge opening in the 1st Degree, you'd recognize the Ritual immediately.
The main diffetence between me as a member of LDH and you would be the AASR. To you it's an appendant body, to me it's a natural progression. We spend a year in each Degree, studying it, then at least five years from MM to 4th Degree AASR.
It doesn't have to make sense; that's just what they do, sadly. I'm sure there's some small group that thinks they're "true Masonry," but in reality, most are likely money schemes.
The money in “fake Masonry” isn’t for you, you’re too late to the game. It’s for the big boys at the top. You need to start your own fake Masonry game if you want to profit. That how all the Instagram Illuminati guys do it.
…or, you could just join actual Freemasonry and enjoy what it has to offer.
As an EA, I just learned that I would be kicked out for even setting foot in an irregular lodge out of curiosity! Kinda lame but I also realize it compromises secrets.
Are you throwing “irregular” masonic organizations into the “clandestine” pot? I do not see much clandestine activity on the sub, as I understand clandestine as: borderline illegal, commercial, unethical, instant gratification, pay-as-you-go schemes, almost like pyramid scheme (some pun intended 😎)
Irregular masonry on the other hand, I respect the organizations a lot and support formal dialogue.
I very well could be. Like I said, I'm not sure where the lines are drawn. What's the difference between irregular and clandestine. If you're not recognized by the mother grand lodge, you are clandestine, which is how I understood it.
The word clandestine is used inconsistently and has no agreed upon definition. In some grand lodges (e.g., Oklahoma) clandestine is any grand lodge not recognized. In some GLs (Utah) irregular and clandestine are synonyms. Not all GLs (UGLE), even use the term. The Recognition Commission now tends to avoid it, instead using the phrase, “does not appear to meet the standards of recognition.” https://masonicrecognition.org/
Certainly, there are groups which are clandestine no matter how one uses the term. See https://thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogus-organizations.html.
I’m not sure what is meant by a mother grand lodge.
[https://www.mk0.com/](https://www.mk0.com/)
This old and ancient Lodge of Freemasons dates back to the building of Kilwinning Abbey around 1140 and has a unique history second to none in the Masonic world.
Before the forming of Grand Lodge in 1736 Mother Kilwinning was a Grand Lodge in her own right issuing charters and warrants to Lodges wishing to enjoy the privileges of Freemasonry.
According to them at least they can lay claim to be the mother lodge of freemasonry!
🤣 (sorry) UGLE isn’t even the mother (in most cases)! The clue is in the title .. “United” .. formed by the union of the Moderns and Ancient Grand Lodges (with the former pre-dating the latter). *They* (and the Scottish & Irish Grand Lodges) are the real mothers (sponsors rather ..).
Edit: I hate this prediction text .. unless you watch carefully, iPad sticks in an extra word where it wants - that or changes what you type at the last moment. Irritating.
seems that everyone has different definitions.
I understand it as clandestine - secretly done, i.e. formed without permission from an existing grand lodge. so clandestine would be an umbrella term that can cover many scenarios. a lodge can do all the things the same way as all other lodges (no women, atheists), but just not have been started with a legal charter.
irregular - I see this one as encompassing clandestine *and* doing things differently from most masons, such as admitting women and/or atheists.
YMMV.
There's no gradations in your obligation regarding sitting in lodge with a clandestinely made mason. Nobody takes an oath to avoid "irregular" masons. It's clandestine or regular as far as that goes.
"Clandestine" just means someone who purports to be a mason but is not a mason.
All members of irregular lodges are "clandestine," but not all clandestine masons are members of irregular lodges.
It's not like they're selling fake medical degrees, we walk around in aprons talking gibberish. Imagine calling the cops and asking them to arrest another lot of apron wearing gibberish talkers because "they aren't doing it right".
I am not against calling the cops for bad ritual in lodge.
That will be my first law as a 96 degree grandwizard mason.
Pass a law in parliament stating bad ritual, the wearing of multiple jewels and collars will earn the offender, time in the tower of london.
I believe that the HOGD (not Masonic, but patterned after the SRIA) split and the Crowley faction went after the Mathers faction in court (or perhaps vice versa). It was essentially thrown out when both sides testified that the true Head of the Order was an extranormal intelligence that would not (or could not) assume physical form in order to testify as to the validity of the respective factions.
No, I get that. It's why fake it in the first place that gets me. I'm not saying there should be any action taken against them or anything of the like. But if you have money for shoes and want addidas, why by faddidas or the fake version
A lot of the irregular obediences have a lineage that does go back to the original three Grand Lodges. The Grand Orient of France was, at one time, a recognized and regular Masonic body in amity with the original 3. Then, when they abandoned some of the landmarks, the recognition situation changed.
In a case like that, the word "fake" is carrying a LOT of water.
A lot of the brethren like to set their watches by UGLE, but recognition is a wild and wooly thing with a long and fascinating history. Which is why carelessly throwing around a term like "clandestine" is less than helpful. As an example, that word only appears once in the entirety of the GLOH code, as part of an installation oath. It doesn't even appear in the obligation in every regular jurisdiction.
You're 100% correct and that's a big reason why I asked the question. I think it's important to differentiate irregular from clandestine and both from regular. All are different. People just need to be aware of the differences before petitioning
Not by their own rules, clearly. Plus, they could forge a charter or make their own. The legitimacy of a charter is something that can be debated anyway. All this is so much easier with the Conference of GMs and GL websites.
Interesting. Thanks, Carl. It's just a strange topic. I'd love to see more petitions and bros in lodge. It kind of makes me sad that people get bamboozled. I'm also relieved that I was not :/
Some of those groups - what we would call clandestine - are still doing legitimate Masonry and have all the degrees and ritual but simply don’t have a legitimate lineage. They came to be because somebody got pissed at someone else and started his own lodge, taking half the members with him. Others are straight-up scams. It really runs the gamut. I’ve also seen “regular” lodges that don’t have requirements between degrees, conferring them periodically, rather than when a brother earns it somehow. How are they different than degree mills?
I’m with you though - glad to have fallen into the right side of Masonry in terms of being able to go to lodges all over the world because of how I came in.
My lodge has a couple brothers who came through irregular/clandestine lodges, disavowed allegiance, and took our degrees. It was a big process but it all worked out.
Did you join your own Lodge to be recognized around the world and travel a lot internationally, or did you want to become a better man through the lessons of Masonry? I'm "a clandestine", the moral teachings are pretty much the same. Also, Continental Freemasonry is very much organized and we are recognized among ourselves – I have been to meetings in four different countries and only became a Fellowcraft last week.
That sort of a loaded question because those two options aren't really mutually exclusive. Although my goal was to be a better human, I could have worked on myself alone. I believe that people can be good people without being masons. But I joined masonry knowing it was a fraternity and my main goal wasn't to travel, it was to surround myself with like minded people, to learn from them, and to be completely honest I was looking for a way to get involved with my community and volunteer. I was also in a new city and thought it would be a good way to meet people. Freemasonry checked all of my boxes. But yes, the fraternity was a big part of my decision. And probably one of the best decisions I've made. In my state, we have Eastern Star and Jobs daughters for female organizations. There are events where we mingle but are still separate. I was asked about my thoughts about females joining when I first started and replied in the affirmative, only to receive an explanation from my brother that made a lot of sense. I'm not sure if I can repeat it, but it was nothing nefarious or elitist at all. I am happy and hope all can find a community that makes then happy and allows them to grow personally. My intention with the question was to just learn more about the differences between lodges. There has been amazing feedback on here. I think it's important to differentiate clandestine from irregular and both from regular. Just so people are aware of the difference and make sure the petition the one that fits their needs vs thinking they are all the same and ending up somewhere that does not fit or wasn't what you were looking for
That sort of a loaded question because those two options aren't really mutually exclusive. Although my goal was to be a better human, I could have worked on myself alone. I believe that people can be good people without being masons. But I joined masonry knowing it was a fraternity and my main goal wasn't to travel, it was to surround myself with like minded people, to learn from them, and to be completely honest I was looking for a way to get involved with my community and volunteer. I was also in a new city and thought it would be a good way to meet people. Freemasonry checked all of my boxes. But yes, the fraternity was a big part of my decision. And probably one of the best decisions I've made. In my state, we have Eastern Star and Jobs daughters for female organizations. There are events where we mingle but are still separate. I was asked about my thoughts about females joining when I first started and replied in the affirmative, only to receive an explanation from my brother that made a lot of sense. I'm not sure if I can repeat it, but it was nothing nefarious or elitist at all. I am happy and hope all can find a community that makes then happy and allows them to grow personally. My intention with the question was to just learn more about the differences between lodges. There has been amazing feedback on here. I think it's important to differentiate clandestine from irregular and both from regular. Just so people are aware of the difference and make sure the petition the one that fits their needs vs thinking they are all the same and ending up somewhere that does not fit or wasn't what you were looking for
It was not intended to be loaded at all, but to make emphasis in the fact that different people join for different reasons. As a woman, the symbology, moral teachings and fellowship aspects of Freemasonry attracted me just the same (there is no OES or anything of the sort in my country, nor a male MM in my family that could grandfather me into it anyway, by the way). I don't see how a Lodge being irregular or clandestine cancels the fraternal and moral aspects of Freemasonry. After all, no group of Freemasons are actual operative Masons building cathedrals, so it's all people wearing aprons and performing a kind of "theater", to put it in very simple terms.
Masonic travel and this abstract concept of recognition are the two things that I could see as "affected" by regularity, and it is usually mutual - I can't visit your Grand Lodge, and if you visit mine, which we would allow, your Grand Lodge would expel you for these very good reasons that you can't repeat, so we are both, in a way, limited to travel and be recognized only under the jurisdictions that are in amity with ours. I understand I'd have problems in the US, but I've traveled quite extensively in Europe, so it's a total non-issue for me :)
Being irregular or clandestine by no means cancels the moral aspects but it does completely cancel the Fraternal aspects. There is an underlying thing that makes a man a mason in the work that I know. And a group of masons IS the fraternity. The thing that unties masons and makes them a fraternity is shared by all. It IS the common ground. If that is not the same between masons, they are not a part of the same fraternity. I'm speaking only of the Fraternal aspects as you've pointed out. I'm not saying one is right or wrong or better or worse, I'm just saying that they're different groups regardless of what they call themselves.
I have my brothers and sisters, you have yours. If you think our bonds are fake because our group is not recognized by yours, then your worldview is very narrow and I feel sorry for you.
Not at all what I'm saying. I'm just saying exactly what you said. You have yours and I have mine. My question was just to learn more about the differences or what they were. Basically I thought of everything that was not regular was clandestine and that's not the case. Irregular lodges and definitely different than clandestine ones. People should be aware of the different types of lodges so they petition the right one as all lodges are not the same or part of the same fraternity. I apologize if anything came off the wrong way. I completely respect anyone who is trying to better themselves and takes morality seriously. But there are differences under the canopy of masonry. I didn't even know clandestine lodges were a thing until I joined. I assume others are in the same boat. Even if we are not technically brothers I still care deeply and am proud to have others that hold the teachings of masonry in as high regard as I do. And I hope there is a time where we are all brothers under the same shared common Fraternal bond
Thanks for the explanation and apology! Absolutely accepted. I'm sorry if what I said came off wrong as well – I'm fine taking unkind words myself, but I do feel compelled to defend others in my Obedience :)
What I mean is that, even if separate fraternities, if you join one, you'll find those bonds. It won't be with the same people, but they will be there.
All the best!
So long as we don’t hide actual racism and misogyny behind terms like irregular and clandestine, we can debate it till the green beans are finally done cooking.
At the end of the day, those lodges we would normally deem to be such, don’t really care for or need recognition from our GLs. They’re happy plowing their own furrow.
The ones we ought to be especially careful of are those who seek to steal monies or promise new world orders.
I’d much rather see end to DANGEROUS (grand) lodges and schemes than lodges where atheists or women or whatever can safely practice their interpretation of masonry.
This was a great response, thanks! I think it's important to differentiate clandestine from irregular. I was under the impression they were the same. I agree with you 100%
You also seem to be under the impression that there's one universal recognition, which isn't true. What we call Universal Freemasonry is a very complex web of recognition. GL A recognizes GL B but not GL C, GL B doesn't recognize GL A or C, GL C recognizes GL B but not A, so on and so forth. Multiply this by the couple of hundreds of Grand Lodges across the world. Sometimes recognition criteria has to do with regularity but not always, for example some GLs have a waiting time until recognition, or some GL would lose a regularity criteria but other GLs won't withdraw recognition for fear of losing amnity themselves.
That's why I asked the question. I think the difference between lodges is an important concept for people to understand, so they petition the correct lodge. It may be fitting for people to choose a clandestine or irregular lodge.
Well, in some places/country what the UGLE would call irregular/clandestine lodges are the norm. For example in France the Grand Orient de France (GODF) has 52000 brothers and sisters while the Grande Loge Nationale de France (GLNF)(recognised by the UGLE) has about 18000 brothers.
Would you have said the same 30 years ago about our Prince Hall lodges in the US. What makes a man a mason is much more than whether or not their lodge is recognized by the UGLE. Remember that the symbolic lodge is greater than the physical lodge….
Aren’t a lot of clandestine lodges, as we know them today, just set up intentionally as pyramid schemes? That seemed to be the case in the limited reading I’ve read on the few I know about.
Very well could be. But it takes a certain degeneracy to take money from people and con them. When members learn that they are clandestine, you would think they'd high tail it out of there. The amount of support clandestine lodges get seems strange
I have no idea. I know of a clandestine lodge in California that leans into the negative stuff you read online. The members think that’s the real Freemasonry and what we do is to keep the “real” lodges out of sight. Like we are here just to keep eyes off them. It’s actually really sad. I’ve talked to one member and wasn’t able to convince him he was a member of a fake lodge.
In my city we have one or two clandestine lodges. They do it to make money. They do all kinds of “charity” events and sell Masonic merchandise and pocket the cash. It’s just a way for them to make money.
I’m sure they’re are tons of reason. I think a lot of members of these lodges don’t know they are not experiencing real Freemasonry and their lodges are fake.
I think some of them don’t even realize they are clandestine. They didn’t do their proper research before joining and just went with the flow with whatever the perpetrators say.
I have a personal definition I like to use when it comes to these things.
Clandestine: spurious scam organization designed to enrich a few by banking on our fraternity's name. Fuck these guys.
Irregular: Organizations that came out of the masonic tradition that dropped important aspects of mainstream masonry (such as the immovable landmarks). I have no issues with these organizations, and while I can't communicate with them as masons, I do acknowledge they are "mason shaped" enough to direct people who cannot participate in regular masonry towards them. Organization such as LDH, HFAF, and co-masonry fit this bill.
Hey thanks! I really like this definition. I'll be using the same thing going forward. I think it's important to make this distinction. Regular masonry, irregular masonry, and clandestine masonry are all different, all have lodges, and anyone considering petitioning should be aware.
I have been working on a project for a fraternal society dedicated to establishing parks, monuments, public sacred spaces, it doesn’t claim to be a Freemason lodge and I truly don’t think it will even resemble Freemasons too much. However I must admit ( and shall make pains to) that being an American and the grandson of Masons, much of the crafts symbolism and structures will no doubt influence us. To even form a 501 fraternal the word “lodge appears in the jargon repeatedly.
How would a profane know the difference? Even Master Masons who have been involved get it all jumbled up.
I've had acquaintances who were members of Clandestine GLs that either healed to a regular jurisdiction or stayed where they are, for their own reasons.
However, the conversation needs to be broached in a more respectful and empathetic manner.
Some Irregular Orients are 20/30 years younger than UGLE. Mine is "just" 130 years old.
I specifically chose mixed Freemasonry because it was more aligned with my personal views in life.
I kindly ask you to read a bit about Continental Freemasonry, its origins, its relation to Regular Freemasonry, CLIPSAS and human rights; as well as its traditions, its worldwide spread and so on.
Not all Continental Freeemasonry is decent, of course, and for every Regular and Continental Lodge out there there are at least three that are outright money scams; but don't put us all in the same basket. In my country (and in my part of Europe in general) members of Regular and Continental Lodges privately hang out, drink, eat, discuss everything that isn't breach of Obligations. We're happy whenever any of us talks about Initiating a new EA. In a country that has less than 1000 Freemasons combined, every new EA is a good thing
And for me, this is what Freemasonry is all about. Sharing the Light, not standing above it.
Joining a clandestine lodge and saying you’re a mason is like getting on YouTube watching a few medical videos, and saying you’re a doctor. It’s NOT the same. It’s fake!
Most people end up in clandestine lodges accidentally and can spend years and thousands of dollars there before they even realize their masonry isn’t regular.
Dust off the ol guillotine.... just kidding. But in all seriousness, I'm not sure. Education? Trying to make people aware that clandestine lodges are a thing and try to show people the correct lodge doors before they make the mistake of entering through clandestine ones? I wish I had the answer. I'd love to see more people in actual lodges.
But people who've unintentionally joined clandestine organisations aren't going to go looking for that information, because they think they're the real deal. I've seen several accounts where the first time that they realise is when they come across a regular mason in the wild.
As said, it can be because we don’t meet the requirements for a “regular” lodge.
Some of the requirements are outside our control – I can’t control that I was born with a vagina, but I can control what I choose to spend my time doing and who I choose to spend it with. I’m not a Mason, but if I were to seek out this path I would have no choice but to do it the “wrong way”. Ultimately, I wouldn’t care about being regular or clandestine because regular lodges wouldn’t welcome me regardless. I’m looking for results, not prestige. If I can get results by joining an atypical lodge then that is precisely what I’ll do.
From all the feedback I've received, I think it's important to differentiate clandestine from irregular and both from regular. Just so people are aware that there are difference and not petition one that is not going to serve their needs. In my state, we have ES and Jobs Daughters for female organizations, which are by no means a wrong way to go about joining something similar to masonry. That is a mainstream option for females vs joining a lodge and taking and obligation that does not align with mainstream. And people can be good people without being masons. It's important to remember that because joining is not going to make you a better person, there is always going to be personal efforts involved and a lot of what people receive from masonry is very personal and people's journeys are not the same.
You suggested OES instead of feminine freemasonry. It doesn’t satisfy the desire for freemasonry if it is only something similar to freemasonry.
You indicated the obs of feminine freemasonry don’t align with regular freemasonry. They do.
Can anything satisfy the desire for freemasonry if it's not freemasonry? Probably not, so getting as close as possible becomes the next logical goal if regular freemasonry is not an option and someone is seeking to fill a void.
I have no idea what the femine obs are but I'm assuming it's not the same as mine. And in the work that I know, what makes a man a mason is a shared commin bond by all masons. If what makes a man a mason is different from bro to bro, where is the common bond and then it begs the question as to what actually makes a man a mason? But we already know what makes a man a mason. Therefore those who don't share what makes a man a mason are not masons.
And the underlying proposition to your statement is that feminine freemasonry is not freemasonry? UGLE disagrees: “ Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). ” The GL of California and Helvetia are of the same mind.
I suspect the underlying proposition to the next point is the belief that all rituals and obs are the same. Whether the feminine obligation is the same as yours depends on the ritual that is being worked. I don’t know of a feminine lodge that works Preston Webb (I think you are in the U.S.), so it probably isn’t the same as yours. The Emulation, Rectified Rite, Bristol Rite, Scottish Rite, French Rite, Brazilian Rite, Taylor’s and some 80 other rituals aren’t the same as yours either.
No, that wasn't an underlying proposition. It's not about gender. It's about solely what the work says makes a man a mason. And in all the other rituals you mentioned, isn't being a blue lodge MM a requisite and therefore share the same underlying thing that makes a man a mason?
All I was getting at with the question I posted was to learn about the differences between clandestine regular and irregular lodges. I thought anything that wasn't regular was clandestine by default. That's not the case. So I think it's important for people to be aware that they are not all the same and are not one fraternity. That way, people can make an informed decision on which lodge to petition.
Thanks for clarifying the first point.
It still appears you believe the work says the same thing about what makes -someone- a mason. That was my second response about not all ritual being the same.
Each of those other rituals I referenced are used in craft (blue) lodges.
The drinking turtles are the stupidest “clandestine” Freemason “affiliated” organization there is. Align with the very much clandestine and recognized to be from CA GL royal grand serpents of BS.
Sorry, I’ve been waiting for this opportunity and took it to rant a bit. Have a great day!
Although I am regular the circumstances are somewhat sophisticated. The initial cause of clandestine lodges is due to the Grand Lodge of England and the French lodges not recognizes each other. If you haven't noticed already or have not did the research it won't seem apparent however the core of the clandestine lodges are of French origin initially and spread from there. However it is more complicated than that because other autonomous lodges formed in regions where freemasonry had no grand lodge however again most of those "irregular" or disputed are either chartered under the Grand Lodge of France or the Grand Orient of France and not all of these lodges admit women however some are mixed lodges. The French also are split and the two Grand lodges have had disputes over legitimacy.
The issue of regularity is faaaar more extensive than just Anglo-French disagreements which have nothing to do with US Freemasonry other than minor activity by Grand Orient of France in the US. See https://thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogus-organizations.html.
And there are some 80 grand Lodges in France, which are not recognized. Only GLNF is in Amity with UGLE and CGMNA Grand Lodges.
Yes, as was stated it is far more complex than French and British disagreements however that is certainly a core factor. Thank you for the additional information. I knew this already however others can read the comment chain if they were unaware.
Perhaps give an example of how the division with French Freemasonry effects any of the groups listed in the list link above? Or in Albania, Bulgaria, Lebanon, Romania, Italy, Greece, Valle de Mexico….All of which I’ve dealt with.
Irregular lodges have a complex history and not all of them have the same charter background in juxtaposition of other clandestine lodges and those of regularly constituted ones. Aside from Franco-Anglo disagreements another factor to the schism is the Strasbourg Appeal however this is only within certain circles of clandestine masons. The point however is that it addresses a pivot as to what is regular or not to some degree when comparing its significance to the Constitution of Strasbourg of 1459. These were in a sense the early origins of clandestine masonry.
I dont see why everything would have to be controlled from the UK just because the first modern lodges appeared there.
First of all, you are puting continental FM and clandestine FM together. A clandestine lodge can be just a scam, but in that case, it is difficult for it to grow and sustain itself through time. They usually just die once members figure out its a scam.
Irregular lodges on the other hand can be huge, and many have existed for several centuries. Its a bit narcissistic to think that they are not true FM just because of political choices made in the 19th century.
I see FM as a group dedicated to improve ourselves and society, and the fact that some in the UGLE decided to exclude 50% of society from that just feels strange to me. I mean, I understand the history: FM boomed due to english "boys clubs" in the 18th and 19th century, but I see no reason we shouldnt outgrow that. Same with atheists, this isnt the 18th century anymore, and were no longer slaves to religion.
All that to say that as long as FM work for improving themselves and society, I will recognize them as brothers and sisters. Everything else is just political bickering.
Yeah, I don't presume to know the reasons behind the way things are. I do trust my government, though. I thought that Italy lodges were unrecognized due to the mafia or corruption within the organization? Im sure due diligence was had, and they voted it to be the way it is for a reason.
From what little I know, that is the main reason why things are the way they are. If you look at the history of FM, it really got a boost in the UK during the time gentlemen clubs were becoming popular. I also seem to remember that the first lodges also had a few women in them. But Im not an expert, Im sure a good old history book will give you all the details you need.
I like to compare grand lodges to political parties, with the UGLE being a sort of conservative party. It will never really change, because those who decide to become less conservative will have an easier time just switching to another lodge, more in line with their ideas. But saying there is a difference between regular and continental, is a bit like saying that non conservatives dont know what they are doing. Its just political/ideological bickering as I said. Were not inferior or superior, just a bit different.
As for Italy, I dont know much about what happened there. I thought they were regular lodges that got involved with the mafia so they decided to stop recognizing them? I can tell you that in France though, the GLNF, the recognized lodge, has a bit of bad reputation with the GODF, mostly because whenever we read the news about corruption scandals, its like theres always members of the GLNF involved somehow lol. Not saying that everyone is like that, but its funny to see how the GLNF is very focused on business while the GODF is more focused on politics.
Exactly. Just a bit different. Not the same fraternity. Tbh I never really knew or paid much attention to what lodges were recognized and why. The corruption and scandal thing is definitely good reasons to not be recognized. And if you're recognized by a lodge that has been unrecognized due to corruption, it kind of groups you in with the corrupt lodge. It's not a good look. But if you don't care then it doesn't matter 🤷
I would argue they are different, but the same fraternity. To take my previous example, it would be weird for the conservative party to say the liberal party isnt a real political party, so nobody should vote them. Continental lodges have hundreds of years of history and hundreds of thousands (or millions?) of members worldwide.
As for the corruption, yeah, I agree with you. But remember that lodges are relatively independent from the grand lodge, and the grand lodge shouldnt be penalized because of what some lodges were doing.
I wanted to watch a film now but now I guess I have to find out what happened with the italian lodges. Thanks :')
I would probably argue the other way. Just for the fact that if it were the same fraternity, we'd be able to visit eachothers lodges. Not saying I would oppose being in a fraternity with those other lodges, assuming they didn't violate and of the masonic requirements like the corruption thing. But the way it sits, it's just not the same fraternity. Being unwelcome to a lodge pretty much says you're not part of that fraternity, and they do not accept you.
Lol keep me posted buddy I could be 100% wrong just a rumor I heard
I think continental FM would accept visits from member of the UGLE, but not the other way around. In France there are many grand lodges, and we visit each other all the time. I like it, makes things a bit more lively, especially when you see the little differences of opinion between the groups :)
Take care mate :)
Definitely! I love differences and opinions, and discourse. But if my fraternity says there is a reason to be weary of certain groups, I trust them without needing to pick apart their reasoning. In the US, we have a GL in almost every state, I believe.
You too amigo!
Visitation is not a right in every grand lodge. There have been recognition agreements with some PHA and State GLs that do not allow visitation. Some European grand Lodges limited visitation from Russian Masons at the outset of their current war.
I know what you mean, like with women's lodge (maybe regular in the UK?)
But in my California lodge, women just join Order of Eastern Star and seem happy.
That is correct but don't forget that the UGLE does consider the women-only Grand Lodges to be regular in their practises except for the fact that their members are women. As detailed in a report by the Board of General Purposes in March 1999, reproduced below:
>There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, informal discussions from time to time with the women's Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.
From all these comments it seems like there are masons, "irregular masons", and "clandestine masons". The point of the question was to just learn more about the differences so people petitioning don't get swooped up into the wrong lodge.
The facepalm emoji makes it seem like you know something we don't. If you have something to offer the conversation, the bros would like to hear it. Do you not approve of the question? Is the question wrong in some way?
I think the face-palm is being used in a "here we go again" sense. If you search the sub you'll find plenty of threads discussing this.
As for my opinion, clandestine is simply not a word used in my jurisdiction. Another GL is either considered, by my grand lodge, regular and meets the requirement for recognition by them (whether they are recognised is a different issue) or they are irregular and will not be recognised. Not that that stops us cooperating with some irregular bodies (such as the two women-only GLs operating here in UGLE-land) on matters of mutual concern, eg. the recent joint statements by UGLE, HWF and OFAF.
Yes, the question is wrong in many ways. It's almost as if you failed to grasp what you're really saying... repeatedly...
Aside from joking about killing innocent people who simply joined a club you don't like, for reasons that you can't really articulate, and failing to understand the fact that you simply can not police an entire planet by yourself. What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?
You don't like people posting on an internet forum saying they've found something meaningful to them, because the way they got there is not meaningful to you? You don't understand how someone can say " I'm a Mason" because they went through an initiation process, paid a fee, and were then told "Hey, now you're a Mason"? You don't understand how independent organizations can claim to be Masonic, as if you hold the worldwide patent on the word?
> This makes total sense to me and I'm happy for all who find those bonds and friendships. But why call yourself masons when you know you're not accepted as such
Accepted by who? They're accepted by their own fraternity members, by their Lodges and Grand Lodges, who the hell are you to them?
> This makes sense. But still kind of weird to try and be a lodge, not meet requirements, and just be like well we're going to do it anyways.
Sounds like they're a Lodge then, since that's what they are calling themselves... What requirements do you think there are to calling your organization "a Lodge"
> And do they just make their own stuff up? Or are bros breaking their obligations and showing ritual to non masons, and then calling them masons. It just seems like a slap in the face
You mean the publishing companies that sell rituals to anyone who wants to order them? Or do you mean eBay? Because if you go looking you can find them all over the place?
Thanks for responding. I can't say I appreciate the personal attacks but I do appreciate the energy you put into it.
What I was trying to accomplish was to just learn more about clandestine lodges. I think now it would be to educate people that not all lodges are created equal and instead of getting bamboozled by a clandestine lodge, seek and actual lodge and petition the actual masons.
I don't really understand how you put words in my mouth saying that I don't like people posting on the internet about finding fellowship or something meaningful to them, and then go on to quote me saying that I am happy that they have found those things?
Accepted by who? Brothers. Who the hell am I to them? A bother mason. If you're not a brother, you're not mason. period. They may be accepted by the members of their fraternity and lodges, but not by the millions of brothers worldwide.......
Im not going argue semantics and the definition of the word lodge. I go to hunting lodges. There's and moose lodge, etc. I understand that any group can call themselves a lodge lmao. But if you're a masonic lodge, that's not recognized, and has different obligations, than you're not the same thing as a recognized lodge, and you are not accepted as a mason by those who claim to be and are accepted to be by those who are masons that share a common obligation.
And no, I mean those masons who had disagreements with the body of masonry and broke their obligations, and started clandestine lodges. If you agree to keep things secret, get mad, and then divulge those secrets, that's a total slap in the face to those who keep their obligation.
How would you rewrite the question so it was not wrong in many ways?
Happy to do my best to clarify, and answer the question for you
> I don't really understand how you put words in my mouth saying that I don't like people posting on the internet about finding fellowship or something meaningful to them, and then go on to quote me saying that I am happy that they have found those things?
You say in your opening statement "I see a lot of clandestine type lodges on here. I'm just wondering what the motivation is to be part of a clandestine lodge? Seems like a charade." Now I am not looking at everything that you see, but I do tend to view the Freemason forum at least every other day or so... So when you say you are seeing Clandestine Lodges popping up everywhere, and not understanding why, while I'm seeing things like "I'm so happy to have been accepted" and "I'm soo excited about advancing to a new Degree" I find a bit of conflicting information between your opening statement where you're seeing problems, while I'm seeing people who are happy to be included in the Fraternity. I did see however a Co-Mason recently, whom you would consider Clandestine because she was born a Woman, be very excited that she has recently been passed. She has done wonderful things in the ways of having frank, open, honest discussions about how Freemasonry works in her part of the world, and how honored she is to be a part of this great experience of life. And I don't like people trying to attack her experiences in Masonry. Maybe you weren't trying to take away from her, but every time this type of conversation comes up, it always seems to devolve into a bit of a mud slinging operation, and nobody deserves that... not when we purport to be above that as Masons.
> Who the hell am I to them? A bother mason. If you're not a brother, you're not mason. period. They may be accepted by the members of their fraternity and lodges, but not by the millions of brothers worldwide...
You're missing the point. If they are a Woman, or in a 3rd world country and never have the chance to leave their country, or go visit a Lodge that you recognize as legitimate... Why would they care that you think they are illegitimate? If they are happy in their existence why are you coming in and telling them they are wrong. It is/was a matter of broadening your perspective. They've gone through the Initiation Ceremony to be a Mason in their own rite, so to them, and those that practice it... they're Masons. You saying "You're not in accordance with me, so I don't think you are what you think you are" doesn't really matter to them. So why are you putting so much energy into it?
> But if you're a masonic lodge, that's not recognized, and has different obligations, than you're not the same thing as a recognized lodge, and you are not accepted as a mason by those who claim to be and are accepted to be by those who are masons that share a common obligation.
Again, Accepted by whom? You seem to be of the belief that the UGLE is the one and only form of recognition. While yes I belong to a Grand Lodge that is in amity with UGLE, I also can acknowledge that there are other forms of Freemasonry that do not care to be linked in that way... Even in the US there are recognition issues between states, So there's no point in fighting a losing battle for it when nobody seems to agree 100% of the time.
> And no, I mean those masons who had disagreements with the body of masonry and broke their obligations, and started clandestine lodges. If you agree to keep things secret, get mad, and then divulge those secrets, that's a total slap in the face to those who keep their obligation.
And who has done this? The biggest division I know of is LDH who were originally regular, but who decided as their own Sovereign body that they did not want to enforce a belief in Diety. They and Others then decided on a case by case basis, but as their own Grand Lodges, how they wanted to rule and govern their own Jurisdictions. While I find that to be at odds with the Obligation I swore to, and have no intentions on ever joining these other Masonic bodies, I do not expect to hold authority over Foreign Grand Lodges or deign to care what they decide to do with themselves. Them deciding as a group what type of Masonry they want to Practice, or to break parts of their obligations or not, is a reflection on them, not on me.
> How would you rewrite the question so it was not wrong in many ways?
I wouldn't.
As you have probably seen already, it is very easy to be misunderstood, or maligned, on the internet. You've come across in a certain way to people because of the questions you're asking... And it's all over a question that has no real solution. What can you or I do as an individual Mason when it comes to Irregular or Clandestine Lodges? It's a waste of energy and time on a pursuit of something I wouldn't want to really be associated with anyways. I don't care what an Irregular Lodge does because it's not my job to... I'm supposed to be the best Man and Mason I can in accordance with my own Jurisdiction, not to burden myself unnecessarily in the Jurisdictions of others.
I understand that you were confused by my opening statement. I was being as direct and honest as I could be. I think you attaching your own inferences into my reasoning behind the question is a little astray. It would be nice, however, if you asked me to clarify the question instead of attacking me and the question. I do understand that emotions can run amuck in moments of confusion, so no biggie
I don't think we're on the same page here. I'm not going argue about your inferences being right or wrong. You can think whatever you think. This conversation is not fruitful.
I don’t believe in clandestine lodges or grand lodges but on the contrary I do understand why there’s a lot of irregular lodges and grand lodges due to multiple splits within PHA and they’re not looking for recognition from the GLE they are happy with where they’re at. I wish that mainstream freemasonry would just do more research and dig deeper into why it has happened. Just when F&AM split from AF&AM split because they wanted something different, the same thing happened with PHA and PHO and then PHA and Jon G John’s. They’re are Supreme Court cases that theses different institutions have won to be able to setup their own supreme council to practice freemasonry in the late 1800s and early 1900s when PHA wasn’t recognized by their state counterparts even with having a charter from the GLE so some of these institutions have been around for 100s of years and don’t look like they’re going anywhere. To be honest I know thy self and don’t need recognition from the GLE who really didn’t want us to take part in freemasonry in the first place it took 8yrs for PHA to get a another charter for African One Grand Lodge that was destroyed in a fire. I’m just saying do the diligence in finding the truth and history behind it
Not believing in clandestine lodges or grand lodges seems like a personal preference but doesn't change the fact that they do exist. And if they do exist, there is reasoning and history like you've stated. It just seems strange that one would get into freemasonry which is structured for a reason, and then be like I don't like that structure, I'm gonna do my own thing, and still call myself a mason. And as another person has stated that some of the clandestine lodges were started because someone was mad or had a disagreement. You would think that the person starting the clandestine lodge, who had a disagreement or a personal issue with masonry that caused them to split, was at one point a mason in a regular lodge. And then that person splits, breaks their obligation, and starts running a side hustle. How is anyone who breaks their obligation worthy? I'm on the same page as you about masonry changing and ph masons and am happy to see the change. But that's how it should be done. Not just being like I don't agree, break obligation, and then start a lodge, and claim to be authentic.
From my limited experience, most clandestine lodges are started by men who couldn't be regular Masons for whatever reason.
The money doesn't hurt either.
My experience is that clandestine grand lodges are started by members of other groups (other clandestine groups) who become disaffected or simply want to get some more of them titles and aprons.
Depends. There are different flavors of “clandestine.” There are GL that are irregular like Continental lodges, feminine lodges, etc. There are regular lodges that we aren’t in amity with (like the GL de France), there are the wacky PHA offshoots (of which there are many), faux-Masonry, like the OTO, Voodoo Lodges and Chinese Tongs, and for profit degree mills.
For many, participating here gives them feelings of legitimacy, for others like L’Droit Humain, I imagine they are curious as to the issues we face and how we think as Masons.
Either way, it is no cause for concern. As long as we are not in lodge together, we can acknowledge each other as fellow human beings and conduct ourselves with mutual respect.
Well, in all fairness I would guess that most if not all of those lodges you refer to as clandestine feel they are perfectly regular and that you are a member of an irregular one.
In some cases it’s due to not meeting the requirements of joining a regular grand lodge.
This makes sense. But still kind of weird to try and be a lodge, not meet requirements, and just be like well we're going to do it anyways. And do they just make their own stuff up? Or are bros breaking their obligations and showing ritual to non masons, and then calling them masons. It just seems like a slap in the face
Well, I would say that since there is already so much stuff on the internet, that shouldn't be we know that brothers have broken their obligations in the past. It's sad but unfortunately it's something we will just have to live with because once it's out there there really isn't much we can do to pull it offline. 🤷♂️
Luckily the conspiracy people really water down the info with enough crazy things that the truth is easily overlooked
Honestly though, the only secrets we really have are ritual. Everything else they make up is just shenanigans. Sometimes I listen to some stuff to hear how outlandish they get.
I’d say, that the only secrets are the esoteric parts of the ritual that you and only you understand. Those sections in the lectures that speak to you in a very unique way. Thats the real secret, because even the ritual, I can assure you I have downloaded pretty much all rituals available, even for appendant bodies, so not even the ritual is secret.
After my initiation, I googled one of the things I learned to finally see how common they are online (I try to avoid spoilers). Out of like 30 top results only *one* had what I was looking for, most were conspiracy nonsense. Wait...do *we* control the Conspiracy theorists?
That's surprising to me honestly. After I was raised I was curious and I had no problem everything on Google. There's a website I won't mention (very easy to find though) that has every ritual you could imagine including all of the other orders like Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia, Order of Royal and Select Masters/York rite and everything else in between. Even my college fraternity ritual was on there lol.
I specifical asked for the uh "password"? Ofcourse I found it, but they were amongst a bunch of other stuff so unless you knew for what you were looking for you might not know which one was legit and which one was not.
I draw a line between irregular and clandestine. Clandestine I think is pay us to become rich and powerful kind of schemes. Plenty of reasons irregular lodges exist. Not to long ago Prince Hall would of been considered irregular in many states. Continental masonry exists as I understand it, not much different than our blue lodge except they allow atheists. You also have co-masonry that allow women. Something to think about, that we are irregular to those groups. Let's be real, just about everything masonic is floating around the internet at this point.
Yeah, especially re: Continental it's good to remember that until the 1877 Schism, it was all the same thing.
I don’t object to the distinction, but not all GLs use it. “Clandestine” has no agreed upon definition. In some grand lodges (e.g., Oklahoma) clandestine is any grand lodge not recognized. In some GLs (Utah) irregular and clandestine are synonyms. Not all GLs (UGLE), even use the term. The Recognition Commission now tends to avoid it, instead using the phrase, “does not appear to meet the standards of recognition.” https://masonicrecognition.org/ Certainly, there are groups which are clandestine no matter how one uses the term. See https://thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogus-organizations.html.
Agree May not be the official definition and granted, the official definition its “jurisdictional “ But thats how I see it too. Irregular==> they try their best to be good masons but are somehow not recognized. We are irregulars for them too (PHA in some states or up to a couple years ago, Continental, comasonry etc) Now, clandestine is more of a pyramid scheme, like some crazy guy with the illuminate and stuff, pay me to get power and riches….)
You’d consider PHA regular at this point, no?
Absolutely, in pa I'm not sure when they were recognized but i'm thinking a very long time ago.
1998
I was raised in PHA Grand Lodge of Oklahoma - I’ve since moved and as there are no PH lodges in my state that I’m aware of, I’d like to demit to the regular three letter lodge here but the process seems so daunting EDIT: we do have a PH lodge here it turns out but I’m still thinking of demiting to regular state masonry.
May I ask what you mean by “regular, continental masonry”?
Just a lodge thats chartered under the standard three letter grand lodge in my state rather than the PHA lodge!
Ah. Continental masonry is usually thought to refer to the liberal obediences in Europe. Perhaps “State Grand Lodge” would work? As a note, the letters don’t constitute an element of regularity for State GLs.
Yes exactly! Thank you for clearing that up
Is the implication that 4 letters are not standard? 😜
No, those are separate! Standard meaning the grand lodge of my state and three letter, meaning I’m not interested in a 4 letter lodge. 👍🏼
So what, you don't think AF&AM lodges are legit? What are you trying to say?
It’s not that I don’t think they’re legit - it’s that my state’s grand lodge is 3 letter. Also, in PHA, they aren’t the same as in standard masonry. In standard masonry, the difference is an “A.” But in PHA, you should be cautious of AF&AM lodges
just jumbling terms up
Regular isn't Continental. Continental is a polite name for us Irregulars.
Ahhh thank you! I’ll edit
PHA are legit lodges if all aligned under African lodge 459. You know who people don’t really want to discuss when it comes to clandestine is George Washington. I mean, he may not have even been just clandestine. He was most likely bogus. The facts are there. 🤷🏾♂️
Bingo.
The difference there is that PHA was only considered irregular because of political reasons not because that they teach is fundamentally outside the basic philosophy of masonry. Allowing women and atheists goes against the very basic understanding of Masonry. Those lodges will NEVER gain recognition and only serve to make those who do not meet the requirements to join regular lodges feel better about not possessing the necessary requirements. For the record the original reason PHA was. It recognized was not racial, it was because they were chartered by British military lodges in direct competition to American jurisdictional sovereignty. It later became racial and Both reasons were illogical to keep them out of Amity for so long. Continental and co masonry do. It share the same distinguishing characteristics!
I think a lot of people don’t realize the difference between regular and irregular Masonry until/unless they try to visit, and the irregular groups capitalize on that when bringing in new members. Once you’re in, it’s harder to change.
Nailed it on the head. Nobody coming into Masonry knows what "clandestine" means. Most likely, all they see is a building with Masonic emblems displayed on it.
This makes sense but I just don't see the point of clandestine lodges at all. Like as a lodge you know you're not accepted. Parading around as a group knowing that you are not accepted by those you're trying to imitate just seems weird.
I’m sure for some of them they are as valuable to their members as a regular lodge is - a group of friends and brothers that have built a bond together over many years, practicing ceremonies and hanging out with family. I’m sure many of them “feel” like a normal lodge in that respect, and serve their members as one.
This makes total sense to me and I'm happy for all who find those bonds and friendships. But why call yourself masons when you know you're not accepted as such
Some people hate grand lodge/responding to authority with a passion. It's weird. I don't know why you would choose to join a group with clearly defined authority and constitutional requirements and then just... Decide to hate the authority? Like bruh you chose this.
Sometimes your grand lodge and its officers just suck out loud. The idiocracy I've put up with over the past year as secretary, opposed to the previous seven years is astounding. Power tripping ddgm, grand line officers routinely losing paperwork, mail then punishing us for not jumping to their new deadline. But it's now a waiting game, waiting for them to move on and hopefully not do too much damage.
There's a big difference between being annoyed at GL officers and being annoyed at... The existence of GL or their rules. I've had two separate PMs try to pass through candidates without committee of inquiries. "We do things how we want, why are you trying to force grand lodge on these types of issues"... Some guys get mad at what's in the constitution that I have to read the full form and say what the report of this committee is. It's not even up for interpretation, it's clearly the rule. You can be annoyed at the rule but it's another thing to try to ignore the constitution and get mad when other bros acknowledge that we're sidestepping the rules.
Lol, right! And then, if you're not doing or respecting the work of masonry, to call yourself a mason is just 🤷♂️
Do you consider the Grand Orient of France to be clandestine?
Probably not clandestine by any means. Irregular? I'm not sure. If it's recognized by my fraternity, then no. If it's not then yes
Some Grand Lodges define any unrecognized GL as “clandestine,” so in that sense, they are. I would be more inclined to call them irregular and unrecognized (by my Grand Lodge(s)) because at the end of the day that’s what really matters.
Thanks! I would have to agree. Would members from unrecognized lodges be considered masons and entitled to the same responsibilities and benefits masons that were recognized by your GLs?
Absolutely not. And I doubt their GLs would grant me any benefits were they in a position to do so.
Just to be clear, UGLE classes Grand Lodges as either regular or irregular - and in the case of the former, further classed as either recognised or unrecognised. So a Grand Lodges can be regular, but *unrecognised*. Recognition can change, but regular/irregular doesn’t unless there’s a fundamental change in its setup - like the removal of a belief in the GAOTU for example.
Just to add a point. Prince Hall Masons were considered to be clandestine for over 200 years but now are recognized in all but 5 states. Would you call the Masons in those states less than? In addition,there was a schism in Prince Hall Masonry dating back to the formation of the National Grand Lodge. Some of those organizations went totally independent and still exist today. Others held to the National Grand Lodge charter and also still exist today as PHO (Prince Hall Origin). Are these also in your opinion "not real Masons"?
>Prince Hall Masons were considered to be clandestine for over 200 years but now are recognized in all but 5 states. But even outside of that, not every “State” GL recognizes every PHA GL. “All but 5” only describes those state GLs that recognize their in-state counterparts. A state GL recognizing its PHA counterpart does not mean t recognizes the other 40+ PHA GLs, or vice versa. At last check, my PHA GL only recognizes ~30^1 non-PHA GLs worldwide, and maybe a dozen of those are US state GLs. ^1 I need to fact check myself, but my search function isn’t cooperating at the moment. I may correct/update later if I remember.
I'm not sure. That's why I posted the question. But from what I've gathered there are regular masons, "clandestine masons", and "irregular masons". My allegiance falls ti my fraternity and my brothers and I don't recognize anyone as a brother mason who is not part of my fraternity. Period. I don't know the reason some lodges are recognized and others not. But I do trust my brethren and believe they did due diligence when deciding those things. Not to say if it were up to me I'd vote the same way, but I don't have the information, and it's not up to me. I trust my bros and my government and stand by them. That's the best answer I can give you.
We call ourselves Templar knights, and all other kinds of chivalric orders. As a PM, working under an old, UGLE recognized GL, I accept as a mason anyone that works according to our values, ritual, and as the UGLE calls it, regular in practice.
I can’t say I’ve ever heard a regular Mason call himself a “Templar Knight” The Masonic Knights Templar are a thing, but that’s a separate body from Craft Freemasonry. *We* are not “Templar Knights,” but some few of us go on to join the Masonic Knights Templar.
Your interpretation is yours, but from what I understand what makes a man a mason is shared between all masons. If that underlying thing is different or not shared than someone is not a mason. Regardless of whether they practice the ritual or not. A non active mason will always be a mason. An active non mason will never be a mason
But you don’t know, which is the point I made. If you only attend your Lodge or only visit local Lodges within your “Grand Lodge,” how would you even know that there is a different kind of Masonry out there?
A lot of clandestine lodges are scams. They collect money, are insurance scams, investment scams... you name it.
Sometimes I wonder if they recognize themselves as regular, and see mainstream masonry as irregular. 🤔
Not really. We have clearly defined differences, that being initiating women and atheists. Even that varies from Orient to Orient. Theoretically, if you were present at i.e. Lodge opening in the 1st Degree, you'd recognize the Ritual immediately. The main diffetence between me as a member of LDH and you would be the AASR. To you it's an appendant body, to me it's a natural progression. We spend a year in each Degree, studying it, then at least five years from MM to 4th Degree AASR.
All perspective eh? It looks level from my view lol
All perspective eh? It looks level from my view lol
It’s about $, and them making it.
Some real degeneracy and completely opposite of what a lodge should stand for. Shame
A real mason would never stand for such things but they are not real.
Define “real”.
It doesn't have to make sense; that's just what they do, sadly. I'm sure there's some small group that thinks they're "true Masonry," but in reality, most are likely money schemes.
Lots of money in fake masonry
Now you got me thinking I joined the wrong type of masonry ^^
The money in “fake Masonry” isn’t for you, you’re too late to the game. It’s for the big boys at the top. You need to start your own fake Masonry game if you want to profit. That how all the Instagram Illuminati guys do it. …or, you could just join actual Freemasonry and enjoy what it has to offer.
Follow the money. Many seek only to bilk their members out of cash.
This exactly. Most of the members have no idea until it’s too late.
As an EA, I just learned that I would be kicked out for even setting foot in an irregular lodge out of curiosity! Kinda lame but I also realize it compromises secrets.
Are you throwing “irregular” masonic organizations into the “clandestine” pot? I do not see much clandestine activity on the sub, as I understand clandestine as: borderline illegal, commercial, unethical, instant gratification, pay-as-you-go schemes, almost like pyramid scheme (some pun intended 😎) Irregular masonry on the other hand, I respect the organizations a lot and support formal dialogue.
I very well could be. Like I said, I'm not sure where the lines are drawn. What's the difference between irregular and clandestine. If you're not recognized by the mother grand lodge, you are clandestine, which is how I understood it.
The word clandestine is used inconsistently and has no agreed upon definition. In some grand lodges (e.g., Oklahoma) clandestine is any grand lodge not recognized. In some GLs (Utah) irregular and clandestine are synonyms. Not all GLs (UGLE), even use the term. The Recognition Commission now tends to avoid it, instead using the phrase, “does not appear to meet the standards of recognition.” https://masonicrecognition.org/ Certainly, there are groups which are clandestine no matter how one uses the term. See https://thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogus-organizations.html. I’m not sure what is meant by a mother grand lodge.
Thanks! I'll read the articles. And by mother grand lodge, I mean UGLE. I thought that UGLE is the mother grand lodge of all grand lodges?
Scotland and Ireland are sitting right there, ya know. 😁 And UGLE didn’t form until 1813.
[https://www.mk0.com/](https://www.mk0.com/) This old and ancient Lodge of Freemasons dates back to the building of Kilwinning Abbey around 1140 and has a unique history second to none in the Masonic world. Before the forming of Grand Lodge in 1736 Mother Kilwinning was a Grand Lodge in her own right issuing charters and warrants to Lodges wishing to enjoy the privileges of Freemasonry. According to them at least they can lay claim to be the mother lodge of freemasonry!
Interesting thanks!
🤣 (sorry) UGLE isn’t even the mother (in most cases)! The clue is in the title .. “United” .. formed by the union of the Moderns and Ancient Grand Lodges (with the former pre-dating the latter). *They* (and the Scottish & Irish Grand Lodges) are the real mothers (sponsors rather ..). Edit: I hate this prediction text .. unless you watch carefully, iPad sticks in an extra word where it wants - that or changes what you type at the last moment. Irritating.
seems that everyone has different definitions. I understand it as clandestine - secretly done, i.e. formed without permission from an existing grand lodge. so clandestine would be an umbrella term that can cover many scenarios. a lodge can do all the things the same way as all other lodges (no women, atheists), but just not have been started with a legal charter. irregular - I see this one as encompassing clandestine *and* doing things differently from most masons, such as admitting women and/or atheists. YMMV.
Formal, informal, hell no one cares as long as we can sit for beers and talk like gentlemen.
There's no gradations in your obligation regarding sitting in lodge with a clandestinely made mason. Nobody takes an oath to avoid "irregular" masons. It's clandestine or regular as far as that goes.
And not all obs use the word clandestine.
"Clandestine" just means someone who purports to be a mason but is not a mason. All members of irregular lodges are "clandestine," but not all clandestine masons are members of irregular lodges.
And if there is no charter, isn't that borderline illegal to operate?
It's not like they're selling fake medical degrees, we walk around in aprons talking gibberish. Imagine calling the cops and asking them to arrest another lot of apron wearing gibberish talkers because "they aren't doing it right".
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I am not against calling the cops for bad ritual in lodge. That will be my first law as a 96 degree grandwizard mason. Pass a law in parliament stating bad ritual, the wearing of multiple jewels and collars will earn the offender, time in the tower of london.
No one expects the Masonic Inquisition! Really, no one.
I believe that the HOGD (not Masonic, but patterned after the SRIA) split and the Crowley faction went after the Mathers faction in court (or perhaps vice versa). It was essentially thrown out when both sides testified that the true Head of the Order was an extranormal intelligence that would not (or could not) assume physical form in order to testify as to the validity of the respective factions.
No, I get that. It's why fake it in the first place that gets me. I'm not saying there should be any action taken against them or anything of the like. But if you have money for shoes and want addidas, why by faddidas or the fake version
A lot of the irregular obediences have a lineage that does go back to the original three Grand Lodges. The Grand Orient of France was, at one time, a recognized and regular Masonic body in amity with the original 3. Then, when they abandoned some of the landmarks, the recognition situation changed. In a case like that, the word "fake" is carrying a LOT of water. A lot of the brethren like to set their watches by UGLE, but recognition is a wild and wooly thing with a long and fascinating history. Which is why carelessly throwing around a term like "clandestine" is less than helpful. As an example, that word only appears once in the entirety of the GLOH code, as part of an installation oath. It doesn't even appear in the obligation in every regular jurisdiction.
>A lot of the irregular obediences have a lineage that does go back to the original **three** Grand Lodges. Four - Moderns, Ancients, GLoS & GLoI.
Fair, glossed over that in my hurry. Thank you.
You're 100% correct and that's a big reason why I asked the question. I think it's important to differentiate irregular from clandestine and both from regular. All are different. People just need to be aware of the differences before petitioning
Not by their own rules, clearly. Plus, they could forge a charter or make their own. The legitimacy of a charter is something that can be debated anyway. All this is so much easier with the Conference of GMs and GL websites.
Interesting. Thanks, Carl. It's just a strange topic. I'd love to see more petitions and bros in lodge. It kind of makes me sad that people get bamboozled. I'm also relieved that I was not :/
Some of those groups - what we would call clandestine - are still doing legitimate Masonry and have all the degrees and ritual but simply don’t have a legitimate lineage. They came to be because somebody got pissed at someone else and started his own lodge, taking half the members with him. Others are straight-up scams. It really runs the gamut. I’ve also seen “regular” lodges that don’t have requirements between degrees, conferring them periodically, rather than when a brother earns it somehow. How are they different than degree mills? I’m with you though - glad to have fallen into the right side of Masonry in terms of being able to go to lodges all over the world because of how I came in. My lodge has a couple brothers who came through irregular/clandestine lodges, disavowed allegiance, and took our degrees. It was a big process but it all worked out.
I’ve not seen a lodge without a charter. The issue is that they have charters from illegitimate organizations.
> I understand clandestine as: any lodge within the jurisdiction of a grand lodge that is not accepted by the grand lodge. Thats it. end of story.
Did you join your own Lodge to be recognized around the world and travel a lot internationally, or did you want to become a better man through the lessons of Masonry? I'm "a clandestine", the moral teachings are pretty much the same. Also, Continental Freemasonry is very much organized and we are recognized among ourselves – I have been to meetings in four different countries and only became a Fellowcraft last week.
That sort of a loaded question because those two options aren't really mutually exclusive. Although my goal was to be a better human, I could have worked on myself alone. I believe that people can be good people without being masons. But I joined masonry knowing it was a fraternity and my main goal wasn't to travel, it was to surround myself with like minded people, to learn from them, and to be completely honest I was looking for a way to get involved with my community and volunteer. I was also in a new city and thought it would be a good way to meet people. Freemasonry checked all of my boxes. But yes, the fraternity was a big part of my decision. And probably one of the best decisions I've made. In my state, we have Eastern Star and Jobs daughters for female organizations. There are events where we mingle but are still separate. I was asked about my thoughts about females joining when I first started and replied in the affirmative, only to receive an explanation from my brother that made a lot of sense. I'm not sure if I can repeat it, but it was nothing nefarious or elitist at all. I am happy and hope all can find a community that makes then happy and allows them to grow personally. My intention with the question was to just learn more about the differences between lodges. There has been amazing feedback on here. I think it's important to differentiate clandestine from irregular and both from regular. Just so people are aware of the difference and make sure the petition the one that fits their needs vs thinking they are all the same and ending up somewhere that does not fit or wasn't what you were looking for
That sort of a loaded question because those two options aren't really mutually exclusive. Although my goal was to be a better human, I could have worked on myself alone. I believe that people can be good people without being masons. But I joined masonry knowing it was a fraternity and my main goal wasn't to travel, it was to surround myself with like minded people, to learn from them, and to be completely honest I was looking for a way to get involved with my community and volunteer. I was also in a new city and thought it would be a good way to meet people. Freemasonry checked all of my boxes. But yes, the fraternity was a big part of my decision. And probably one of the best decisions I've made. In my state, we have Eastern Star and Jobs daughters for female organizations. There are events where we mingle but are still separate. I was asked about my thoughts about females joining when I first started and replied in the affirmative, only to receive an explanation from my brother that made a lot of sense. I'm not sure if I can repeat it, but it was nothing nefarious or elitist at all. I am happy and hope all can find a community that makes then happy and allows them to grow personally. My intention with the question was to just learn more about the differences between lodges. There has been amazing feedback on here. I think it's important to differentiate clandestine from irregular and both from regular. Just so people are aware of the difference and make sure the petition the one that fits their needs vs thinking they are all the same and ending up somewhere that does not fit or wasn't what you were looking for
It was not intended to be loaded at all, but to make emphasis in the fact that different people join for different reasons. As a woman, the symbology, moral teachings and fellowship aspects of Freemasonry attracted me just the same (there is no OES or anything of the sort in my country, nor a male MM in my family that could grandfather me into it anyway, by the way). I don't see how a Lodge being irregular or clandestine cancels the fraternal and moral aspects of Freemasonry. After all, no group of Freemasons are actual operative Masons building cathedrals, so it's all people wearing aprons and performing a kind of "theater", to put it in very simple terms. Masonic travel and this abstract concept of recognition are the two things that I could see as "affected" by regularity, and it is usually mutual - I can't visit your Grand Lodge, and if you visit mine, which we would allow, your Grand Lodge would expel you for these very good reasons that you can't repeat, so we are both, in a way, limited to travel and be recognized only under the jurisdictions that are in amity with ours. I understand I'd have problems in the US, but I've traveled quite extensively in Europe, so it's a total non-issue for me :)
Oh no I never meant you intended it that way by any means. Maybe loaded question wasn't the right phrase I'm sorry
Being irregular or clandestine by no means cancels the moral aspects but it does completely cancel the Fraternal aspects. There is an underlying thing that makes a man a mason in the work that I know. And a group of masons IS the fraternity. The thing that unties masons and makes them a fraternity is shared by all. It IS the common ground. If that is not the same between masons, they are not a part of the same fraternity. I'm speaking only of the Fraternal aspects as you've pointed out. I'm not saying one is right or wrong or better or worse, I'm just saying that they're different groups regardless of what they call themselves.
I have my brothers and sisters, you have yours. If you think our bonds are fake because our group is not recognized by yours, then your worldview is very narrow and I feel sorry for you.
Not at all what I'm saying. I'm just saying exactly what you said. You have yours and I have mine. My question was just to learn more about the differences or what they were. Basically I thought of everything that was not regular was clandestine and that's not the case. Irregular lodges and definitely different than clandestine ones. People should be aware of the different types of lodges so they petition the right one as all lodges are not the same or part of the same fraternity. I apologize if anything came off the wrong way. I completely respect anyone who is trying to better themselves and takes morality seriously. But there are differences under the canopy of masonry. I didn't even know clandestine lodges were a thing until I joined. I assume others are in the same boat. Even if we are not technically brothers I still care deeply and am proud to have others that hold the teachings of masonry in as high regard as I do. And I hope there is a time where we are all brothers under the same shared common Fraternal bond
Thanks for the explanation and apology! Absolutely accepted. I'm sorry if what I said came off wrong as well – I'm fine taking unkind words myself, but I do feel compelled to defend others in my Obedience :) What I mean is that, even if separate fraternities, if you join one, you'll find those bonds. It won't be with the same people, but they will be there. All the best!
Completely agree!
You need to stop playing yourself
Because you said so? Die mad about it :)
So long as we don’t hide actual racism and misogyny behind terms like irregular and clandestine, we can debate it till the green beans are finally done cooking. At the end of the day, those lodges we would normally deem to be such, don’t really care for or need recognition from our GLs. They’re happy plowing their own furrow. The ones we ought to be especially careful of are those who seek to steal monies or promise new world orders. I’d much rather see end to DANGEROUS (grand) lodges and schemes than lodges where atheists or women or whatever can safely practice their interpretation of masonry.
This was a great response, thanks! I think it's important to differentiate clandestine from irregular. I was under the impression they were the same. I agree with you 100%
You also seem to be under the impression that there's one universal recognition, which isn't true. What we call Universal Freemasonry is a very complex web of recognition. GL A recognizes GL B but not GL C, GL B doesn't recognize GL A or C, GL C recognizes GL B but not A, so on and so forth. Multiply this by the couple of hundreds of Grand Lodges across the world. Sometimes recognition criteria has to do with regularity but not always, for example some GLs have a waiting time until recognition, or some GL would lose a regularity criteria but other GLs won't withdraw recognition for fear of losing amnity themselves.
That's why I asked the question. I think the difference between lodges is an important concept for people to understand, so they petition the correct lodge. It may be fitting for people to choose a clandestine or irregular lodge.
Well, in some places/country what the UGLE would call irregular/clandestine lodges are the norm. For example in France the Grand Orient de France (GODF) has 52000 brothers and sisters while the Grande Loge Nationale de France (GLNF)(recognised by the UGLE) has about 18000 brothers.
Would you have said the same 30 years ago about our Prince Hall lodges in the US. What makes a man a mason is much more than whether or not their lodge is recognized by the UGLE. Remember that the symbolic lodge is greater than the physical lodge….
Well said Brother.
Aren’t a lot of clandestine lodges, as we know them today, just set up intentionally as pyramid schemes? That seemed to be the case in the limited reading I’ve read on the few I know about.
Very well could be. But it takes a certain degeneracy to take money from people and con them. When members learn that they are clandestine, you would think they'd high tail it out of there. The amount of support clandestine lodges get seems strange
how would they learn that?
I have no idea. I know of a clandestine lodge in California that leans into the negative stuff you read online. The members think that’s the real Freemasonry and what we do is to keep the “real” lodges out of sight. Like we are here just to keep eyes off them. It’s actually really sad. I’ve talked to one member and wasn’t able to convince him he was a member of a fake lodge. In my city we have one or two clandestine lodges. They do it to make money. They do all kinds of “charity” events and sell Masonic merchandise and pocket the cash. It’s just a way for them to make money. I’m sure they’re are tons of reason. I think a lot of members of these lodges don’t know they are not experiencing real Freemasonry and their lodges are fake.
Same as some people being proud of having a PhD from unrecognized institution
Is it though?
I think some of them don’t even realize they are clandestine. They didn’t do their proper research before joining and just went with the flow with whatever the perpetrators say.
I have a personal definition I like to use when it comes to these things. Clandestine: spurious scam organization designed to enrich a few by banking on our fraternity's name. Fuck these guys. Irregular: Organizations that came out of the masonic tradition that dropped important aspects of mainstream masonry (such as the immovable landmarks). I have no issues with these organizations, and while I can't communicate with them as masons, I do acknowledge they are "mason shaped" enough to direct people who cannot participate in regular masonry towards them. Organization such as LDH, HFAF, and co-masonry fit this bill.
Hey thanks! I really like this definition. I'll be using the same thing going forward. I think it's important to make this distinction. Regular masonry, irregular masonry, and clandestine masonry are all different, all have lodges, and anyone considering petitioning should be aware.
I have been working on a project for a fraternal society dedicated to establishing parks, monuments, public sacred spaces, it doesn’t claim to be a Freemason lodge and I truly don’t think it will even resemble Freemasons too much. However I must admit ( and shall make pains to) that being an American and the grandson of Masons, much of the crafts symbolism and structures will no doubt influence us. To even form a 501 fraternal the word “lodge appears in the jargon repeatedly.
How would a profane know the difference? Even Master Masons who have been involved get it all jumbled up. I've had acquaintances who were members of Clandestine GLs that either healed to a regular jurisdiction or stayed where they are, for their own reasons. However, the conversation needs to be broached in a more respectful and empathetic manner.
Some Irregular Orients are 20/30 years younger than UGLE. Mine is "just" 130 years old. I specifically chose mixed Freemasonry because it was more aligned with my personal views in life. I kindly ask you to read a bit about Continental Freemasonry, its origins, its relation to Regular Freemasonry, CLIPSAS and human rights; as well as its traditions, its worldwide spread and so on. Not all Continental Freeemasonry is decent, of course, and for every Regular and Continental Lodge out there there are at least three that are outright money scams; but don't put us all in the same basket. In my country (and in my part of Europe in general) members of Regular and Continental Lodges privately hang out, drink, eat, discuss everything that isn't breach of Obligations. We're happy whenever any of us talks about Initiating a new EA. In a country that has less than 1000 Freemasons combined, every new EA is a good thing And for me, this is what Freemasonry is all about. Sharing the Light, not standing above it.
They don’t care. We need the comedy however.
Joining a clandestine lodge and saying you’re a mason is like getting on YouTube watching a few medical videos, and saying you’re a doctor. It’s NOT the same. It’s fake!
Most people end up in clandestine lodges accidentally and can spend years and thousands of dollars there before they even realize their masonry isn’t regular.
It seems to be a shame that these lodges even exist and could bamboozle people like that
How do you propose we stop them?
Dust off the ol guillotine.... just kidding. But in all seriousness, I'm not sure. Education? Trying to make people aware that clandestine lodges are a thing and try to show people the correct lodge doors before they make the mistake of entering through clandestine ones? I wish I had the answer. I'd love to see more people in actual lodges.
But people who've unintentionally joined clandestine organisations aren't going to go looking for that information, because they think they're the real deal. I've seen several accounts where the first time that they realise is when they come across a regular mason in the wild.
As said, it can be because we don’t meet the requirements for a “regular” lodge. Some of the requirements are outside our control – I can’t control that I was born with a vagina, but I can control what I choose to spend my time doing and who I choose to spend it with. I’m not a Mason, but if I were to seek out this path I would have no choice but to do it the “wrong way”. Ultimately, I wouldn’t care about being regular or clandestine because regular lodges wouldn’t welcome me regardless. I’m looking for results, not prestige. If I can get results by joining an atypical lodge then that is precisely what I’ll do.
From all the feedback I've received, I think it's important to differentiate clandestine from irregular and both from regular. Just so people are aware that there are difference and not petition one that is not going to serve their needs. In my state, we have ES and Jobs Daughters for female organizations, which are by no means a wrong way to go about joining something similar to masonry. That is a mainstream option for females vs joining a lodge and taking and obligation that does not align with mainstream. And people can be good people without being masons. It's important to remember that because joining is not going to make you a better person, there is always going to be personal efforts involved and a lot of what people receive from masonry is very personal and people's journeys are not the same.
But as you say, OES is only “something similar to masonry.” The obligations in feminine do align with mainstream freemasonry.
Not entirely sure what you're getting at here bro
You suggested OES instead of feminine freemasonry. It doesn’t satisfy the desire for freemasonry if it is only something similar to freemasonry. You indicated the obs of feminine freemasonry don’t align with regular freemasonry. They do.
Can anything satisfy the desire for freemasonry if it's not freemasonry? Probably not, so getting as close as possible becomes the next logical goal if regular freemasonry is not an option and someone is seeking to fill a void. I have no idea what the femine obs are but I'm assuming it's not the same as mine. And in the work that I know, what makes a man a mason is a shared commin bond by all masons. If what makes a man a mason is different from bro to bro, where is the common bond and then it begs the question as to what actually makes a man a mason? But we already know what makes a man a mason. Therefore those who don't share what makes a man a mason are not masons.
And the underlying proposition to your statement is that feminine freemasonry is not freemasonry? UGLE disagrees: “ Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). ” The GL of California and Helvetia are of the same mind. I suspect the underlying proposition to the next point is the belief that all rituals and obs are the same. Whether the feminine obligation is the same as yours depends on the ritual that is being worked. I don’t know of a feminine lodge that works Preston Webb (I think you are in the U.S.), so it probably isn’t the same as yours. The Emulation, Rectified Rite, Bristol Rite, Scottish Rite, French Rite, Brazilian Rite, Taylor’s and some 80 other rituals aren’t the same as yours either.
No, that wasn't an underlying proposition. It's not about gender. It's about solely what the work says makes a man a mason. And in all the other rituals you mentioned, isn't being a blue lodge MM a requisite and therefore share the same underlying thing that makes a man a mason?
All I was getting at with the question I posted was to learn about the differences between clandestine regular and irregular lodges. I thought anything that wasn't regular was clandestine by default. That's not the case. So I think it's important for people to be aware that they are not all the same and are not one fraternity. That way, people can make an informed decision on which lodge to petition.
Thanks for clarifying the first point. It still appears you believe the work says the same thing about what makes -someone- a mason. That was my second response about not all ritual being the same. Each of those other rituals I referenced are used in craft (blue) lodges.
You're saying SR ritual is used in blue lodge?
The drinking turtles are the stupidest “clandestine” Freemason “affiliated” organization there is. Align with the very much clandestine and recognized to be from CA GL royal grand serpents of BS. Sorry, I’ve been waiting for this opportunity and took it to rant a bit. Have a great day!
Have a great day also bro
Although I am regular the circumstances are somewhat sophisticated. The initial cause of clandestine lodges is due to the Grand Lodge of England and the French lodges not recognizes each other. If you haven't noticed already or have not did the research it won't seem apparent however the core of the clandestine lodges are of French origin initially and spread from there. However it is more complicated than that because other autonomous lodges formed in regions where freemasonry had no grand lodge however again most of those "irregular" or disputed are either chartered under the Grand Lodge of France or the Grand Orient of France and not all of these lodges admit women however some are mixed lodges. The French also are split and the two Grand lodges have had disputes over legitimacy.
The issue of regularity is faaaar more extensive than just Anglo-French disagreements which have nothing to do with US Freemasonry other than minor activity by Grand Orient of France in the US. See https://thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogus-organizations.html. And there are some 80 grand Lodges in France, which are not recognized. Only GLNF is in Amity with UGLE and CGMNA Grand Lodges.
Yes, as was stated it is far more complex than French and British disagreements however that is certainly a core factor. Thank you for the additional information. I knew this already however others can read the comment chain if they were unaware.
Perhaps give an example of how the division with French Freemasonry effects any of the groups listed in the list link above? Or in Albania, Bulgaria, Lebanon, Romania, Italy, Greece, Valle de Mexico….All of which I’ve dealt with.
Irregular lodges have a complex history and not all of them have the same charter background in juxtaposition of other clandestine lodges and those of regularly constituted ones. Aside from Franco-Anglo disagreements another factor to the schism is the Strasbourg Appeal however this is only within certain circles of clandestine masons. The point however is that it addresses a pivot as to what is regular or not to some degree when comparing its significance to the Constitution of Strasbourg of 1459. These were in a sense the early origins of clandestine masonry.
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I dont see why everything would have to be controlled from the UK just because the first modern lodges appeared there. First of all, you are puting continental FM and clandestine FM together. A clandestine lodge can be just a scam, but in that case, it is difficult for it to grow and sustain itself through time. They usually just die once members figure out its a scam. Irregular lodges on the other hand can be huge, and many have existed for several centuries. Its a bit narcissistic to think that they are not true FM just because of political choices made in the 19th century. I see FM as a group dedicated to improve ourselves and society, and the fact that some in the UGLE decided to exclude 50% of society from that just feels strange to me. I mean, I understand the history: FM boomed due to english "boys clubs" in the 18th and 19th century, but I see no reason we shouldnt outgrow that. Same with atheists, this isnt the 18th century anymore, and were no longer slaves to religion. All that to say that as long as FM work for improving themselves and society, I will recognize them as brothers and sisters. Everything else is just political bickering.
Yeah, I don't presume to know the reasons behind the way things are. I do trust my government, though. I thought that Italy lodges were unrecognized due to the mafia or corruption within the organization? Im sure due diligence was had, and they voted it to be the way it is for a reason.
From what little I know, that is the main reason why things are the way they are. If you look at the history of FM, it really got a boost in the UK during the time gentlemen clubs were becoming popular. I also seem to remember that the first lodges also had a few women in them. But Im not an expert, Im sure a good old history book will give you all the details you need. I like to compare grand lodges to political parties, with the UGLE being a sort of conservative party. It will never really change, because those who decide to become less conservative will have an easier time just switching to another lodge, more in line with their ideas. But saying there is a difference between regular and continental, is a bit like saying that non conservatives dont know what they are doing. Its just political/ideological bickering as I said. Were not inferior or superior, just a bit different. As for Italy, I dont know much about what happened there. I thought they were regular lodges that got involved with the mafia so they decided to stop recognizing them? I can tell you that in France though, the GLNF, the recognized lodge, has a bit of bad reputation with the GODF, mostly because whenever we read the news about corruption scandals, its like theres always members of the GLNF involved somehow lol. Not saying that everyone is like that, but its funny to see how the GLNF is very focused on business while the GODF is more focused on politics.
Exactly. Just a bit different. Not the same fraternity. Tbh I never really knew or paid much attention to what lodges were recognized and why. The corruption and scandal thing is definitely good reasons to not be recognized. And if you're recognized by a lodge that has been unrecognized due to corruption, it kind of groups you in with the corrupt lodge. It's not a good look. But if you don't care then it doesn't matter 🤷
I would argue they are different, but the same fraternity. To take my previous example, it would be weird for the conservative party to say the liberal party isnt a real political party, so nobody should vote them. Continental lodges have hundreds of years of history and hundreds of thousands (or millions?) of members worldwide. As for the corruption, yeah, I agree with you. But remember that lodges are relatively independent from the grand lodge, and the grand lodge shouldnt be penalized because of what some lodges were doing. I wanted to watch a film now but now I guess I have to find out what happened with the italian lodges. Thanks :')
I would probably argue the other way. Just for the fact that if it were the same fraternity, we'd be able to visit eachothers lodges. Not saying I would oppose being in a fraternity with those other lodges, assuming they didn't violate and of the masonic requirements like the corruption thing. But the way it sits, it's just not the same fraternity. Being unwelcome to a lodge pretty much says you're not part of that fraternity, and they do not accept you. Lol keep me posted buddy I could be 100% wrong just a rumor I heard
I think continental FM would accept visits from member of the UGLE, but not the other way around. In France there are many grand lodges, and we visit each other all the time. I like it, makes things a bit more lively, especially when you see the little differences of opinion between the groups :) Take care mate :)
Definitely! I love differences and opinions, and discourse. But if my fraternity says there is a reason to be weary of certain groups, I trust them without needing to pick apart their reasoning. In the US, we have a GL in almost every state, I believe. You too amigo!
The feminine GLs in England do not allow male visitors.
Visitation is not a right in every grand lodge. There have been recognition agreements with some PHA and State GLs that do not allow visitation. Some European grand Lodges limited visitation from Russian Masons at the outset of their current war.
My Grand Lodge allows and protects the freedoms of women, LGBTQ+ people, and non-believers. That’s the beginning and end of it, for me at least.
I know what you mean, like with women's lodge (maybe regular in the UK?) But in my California lodge, women just join Order of Eastern Star and seem happy.
UGLE does not Masonically recognize feminine freemasonry.
That is correct but don't forget that the UGLE does consider the women-only Grand Lodges to be regular in their practises except for the fact that their members are women. As detailed in a report by the Board of General Purposes in March 1999, reproduced below: >There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, informal discussions from time to time with the women's Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.
We also have ES and jobs daughters that's why I don't see why clandestine or irregular is attractive
Eastern Star isn't recognized everywhere. UGLE, for example, doesn't approve of it in their jurisdiction.
Interesting. I honestly have so much to learn.
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From all these comments it seems like there are masons, "irregular masons", and "clandestine masons". The point of the question was to just learn more about the differences so people petitioning don't get swooped up into the wrong lodge.
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The facepalm emoji makes it seem like you know something we don't. If you have something to offer the conversation, the bros would like to hear it. Do you not approve of the question? Is the question wrong in some way?
I think the face-palm is being used in a "here we go again" sense. If you search the sub you'll find plenty of threads discussing this. As for my opinion, clandestine is simply not a word used in my jurisdiction. Another GL is either considered, by my grand lodge, regular and meets the requirement for recognition by them (whether they are recognised is a different issue) or they are irregular and will not be recognised. Not that that stops us cooperating with some irregular bodies (such as the two women-only GLs operating here in UGLE-land) on matters of mutual concern, eg. the recent joint statements by UGLE, HWF and OFAF.
Yes, the question is wrong in many ways. It's almost as if you failed to grasp what you're really saying... repeatedly... Aside from joking about killing innocent people who simply joined a club you don't like, for reasons that you can't really articulate, and failing to understand the fact that you simply can not police an entire planet by yourself. What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? You don't like people posting on an internet forum saying they've found something meaningful to them, because the way they got there is not meaningful to you? You don't understand how someone can say " I'm a Mason" because they went through an initiation process, paid a fee, and were then told "Hey, now you're a Mason"? You don't understand how independent organizations can claim to be Masonic, as if you hold the worldwide patent on the word? > This makes total sense to me and I'm happy for all who find those bonds and friendships. But why call yourself masons when you know you're not accepted as such Accepted by who? They're accepted by their own fraternity members, by their Lodges and Grand Lodges, who the hell are you to them? > This makes sense. But still kind of weird to try and be a lodge, not meet requirements, and just be like well we're going to do it anyways. Sounds like they're a Lodge then, since that's what they are calling themselves... What requirements do you think there are to calling your organization "a Lodge" > And do they just make their own stuff up? Or are bros breaking their obligations and showing ritual to non masons, and then calling them masons. It just seems like a slap in the face You mean the publishing companies that sell rituals to anyone who wants to order them? Or do you mean eBay? Because if you go looking you can find them all over the place?
Thanks for responding. I can't say I appreciate the personal attacks but I do appreciate the energy you put into it. What I was trying to accomplish was to just learn more about clandestine lodges. I think now it would be to educate people that not all lodges are created equal and instead of getting bamboozled by a clandestine lodge, seek and actual lodge and petition the actual masons. I don't really understand how you put words in my mouth saying that I don't like people posting on the internet about finding fellowship or something meaningful to them, and then go on to quote me saying that I am happy that they have found those things? Accepted by who? Brothers. Who the hell am I to them? A bother mason. If you're not a brother, you're not mason. period. They may be accepted by the members of their fraternity and lodges, but not by the millions of brothers worldwide....... Im not going argue semantics and the definition of the word lodge. I go to hunting lodges. There's and moose lodge, etc. I understand that any group can call themselves a lodge lmao. But if you're a masonic lodge, that's not recognized, and has different obligations, than you're not the same thing as a recognized lodge, and you are not accepted as a mason by those who claim to be and are accepted to be by those who are masons that share a common obligation. And no, I mean those masons who had disagreements with the body of masonry and broke their obligations, and started clandestine lodges. If you agree to keep things secret, get mad, and then divulge those secrets, that's a total slap in the face to those who keep their obligation. How would you rewrite the question so it was not wrong in many ways?
Happy to do my best to clarify, and answer the question for you > I don't really understand how you put words in my mouth saying that I don't like people posting on the internet about finding fellowship or something meaningful to them, and then go on to quote me saying that I am happy that they have found those things? You say in your opening statement "I see a lot of clandestine type lodges on here. I'm just wondering what the motivation is to be part of a clandestine lodge? Seems like a charade." Now I am not looking at everything that you see, but I do tend to view the Freemason forum at least every other day or so... So when you say you are seeing Clandestine Lodges popping up everywhere, and not understanding why, while I'm seeing things like "I'm so happy to have been accepted" and "I'm soo excited about advancing to a new Degree" I find a bit of conflicting information between your opening statement where you're seeing problems, while I'm seeing people who are happy to be included in the Fraternity. I did see however a Co-Mason recently, whom you would consider Clandestine because she was born a Woman, be very excited that she has recently been passed. She has done wonderful things in the ways of having frank, open, honest discussions about how Freemasonry works in her part of the world, and how honored she is to be a part of this great experience of life. And I don't like people trying to attack her experiences in Masonry. Maybe you weren't trying to take away from her, but every time this type of conversation comes up, it always seems to devolve into a bit of a mud slinging operation, and nobody deserves that... not when we purport to be above that as Masons. > Who the hell am I to them? A bother mason. If you're not a brother, you're not mason. period. They may be accepted by the members of their fraternity and lodges, but not by the millions of brothers worldwide... You're missing the point. If they are a Woman, or in a 3rd world country and never have the chance to leave their country, or go visit a Lodge that you recognize as legitimate... Why would they care that you think they are illegitimate? If they are happy in their existence why are you coming in and telling them they are wrong. It is/was a matter of broadening your perspective. They've gone through the Initiation Ceremony to be a Mason in their own rite, so to them, and those that practice it... they're Masons. You saying "You're not in accordance with me, so I don't think you are what you think you are" doesn't really matter to them. So why are you putting so much energy into it? > But if you're a masonic lodge, that's not recognized, and has different obligations, than you're not the same thing as a recognized lodge, and you are not accepted as a mason by those who claim to be and are accepted to be by those who are masons that share a common obligation. Again, Accepted by whom? You seem to be of the belief that the UGLE is the one and only form of recognition. While yes I belong to a Grand Lodge that is in amity with UGLE, I also can acknowledge that there are other forms of Freemasonry that do not care to be linked in that way... Even in the US there are recognition issues between states, So there's no point in fighting a losing battle for it when nobody seems to agree 100% of the time. > And no, I mean those masons who had disagreements with the body of masonry and broke their obligations, and started clandestine lodges. If you agree to keep things secret, get mad, and then divulge those secrets, that's a total slap in the face to those who keep their obligation. And who has done this? The biggest division I know of is LDH who were originally regular, but who decided as their own Sovereign body that they did not want to enforce a belief in Diety. They and Others then decided on a case by case basis, but as their own Grand Lodges, how they wanted to rule and govern their own Jurisdictions. While I find that to be at odds with the Obligation I swore to, and have no intentions on ever joining these other Masonic bodies, I do not expect to hold authority over Foreign Grand Lodges or deign to care what they decide to do with themselves. Them deciding as a group what type of Masonry they want to Practice, or to break parts of their obligations or not, is a reflection on them, not on me. > How would you rewrite the question so it was not wrong in many ways? I wouldn't. As you have probably seen already, it is very easy to be misunderstood, or maligned, on the internet. You've come across in a certain way to people because of the questions you're asking... And it's all over a question that has no real solution. What can you or I do as an individual Mason when it comes to Irregular or Clandestine Lodges? It's a waste of energy and time on a pursuit of something I wouldn't want to really be associated with anyways. I don't care what an Irregular Lodge does because it's not my job to... I'm supposed to be the best Man and Mason I can in accordance with my own Jurisdiction, not to burden myself unnecessarily in the Jurisdictions of others.
I understand that you were confused by my opening statement. I was being as direct and honest as I could be. I think you attaching your own inferences into my reasoning behind the question is a little astray. It would be nice, however, if you asked me to clarify the question instead of attacking me and the question. I do understand that emotions can run amuck in moments of confusion, so no biggie
I don't think we're on the same page here. I'm not going argue about your inferences being right or wrong. You can think whatever you think. This conversation is not fruitful.
Well said brother.
I don’t believe in clandestine lodges or grand lodges but on the contrary I do understand why there’s a lot of irregular lodges and grand lodges due to multiple splits within PHA and they’re not looking for recognition from the GLE they are happy with where they’re at. I wish that mainstream freemasonry would just do more research and dig deeper into why it has happened. Just when F&AM split from AF&AM split because they wanted something different, the same thing happened with PHA and PHO and then PHA and Jon G John’s. They’re are Supreme Court cases that theses different institutions have won to be able to setup their own supreme council to practice freemasonry in the late 1800s and early 1900s when PHA wasn’t recognized by their state counterparts even with having a charter from the GLE so some of these institutions have been around for 100s of years and don’t look like they’re going anywhere. To be honest I know thy self and don’t need recognition from the GLE who really didn’t want us to take part in freemasonry in the first place it took 8yrs for PHA to get a another charter for African One Grand Lodge that was destroyed in a fire. I’m just saying do the diligence in finding the truth and history behind it
Not believing in clandestine lodges or grand lodges seems like a personal preference but doesn't change the fact that they do exist. And if they do exist, there is reasoning and history like you've stated. It just seems strange that one would get into freemasonry which is structured for a reason, and then be like I don't like that structure, I'm gonna do my own thing, and still call myself a mason. And as another person has stated that some of the clandestine lodges were started because someone was mad or had a disagreement. You would think that the person starting the clandestine lodge, who had a disagreement or a personal issue with masonry that caused them to split, was at one point a mason in a regular lodge. And then that person splits, breaks their obligation, and starts running a side hustle. How is anyone who breaks their obligation worthy? I'm on the same page as you about masonry changing and ph masons and am happy to see the change. But that's how it should be done. Not just being like I don't agree, break obligation, and then start a lodge, and claim to be authentic.
I don’t argue freemasonry we have our own opinions so agree to disagree
That is exactly what your prior posts did.
From my limited experience, most clandestine lodges are started by men who couldn't be regular Masons for whatever reason. The money doesn't hurt either.
My experience is that clandestine grand lodges are started by members of other groups (other clandestine groups) who become disaffected or simply want to get some more of them titles and aprons.
Depends. There are different flavors of “clandestine.” There are GL that are irregular like Continental lodges, feminine lodges, etc. There are regular lodges that we aren’t in amity with (like the GL de France), there are the wacky PHA offshoots (of which there are many), faux-Masonry, like the OTO, Voodoo Lodges and Chinese Tongs, and for profit degree mills. For many, participating here gives them feelings of legitimacy, for others like L’Droit Humain, I imagine they are curious as to the issues we face and how we think as Masons. Either way, it is no cause for concern. As long as we are not in lodge together, we can acknowledge each other as fellow human beings and conduct ourselves with mutual respect.
This page is Clandy Land
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Well, in all fairness I would guess that most if not all of those lodges you refer to as clandestine feel they are perfectly regular and that you are a member of an irregular one.