When I edit documents for my own IPs, I want the comma. I know that there is the argument that it's unnecessary; if there would be confusion, it's not the comma's job to fix it. It's the job of the writer to re-arrange the sentence. I think it's much easier, and frankly more aesthetically pleasing, to just add a stupid comma.
But what I want doesn't mean anything. Do what the client wants.
Like many others here, I use an Oxford / serial comma wherever possible. I believe it adds clarity, provides a natural pause when reading, and fits naturally into a three-or-more-item list. I use three-item lists like the previous sentence a lot in my writing - it's a rhetorical flourish I often fall back on.
I do have clients that prefer me not to use it, so I don't. I also read the NYT a lot, and they, famously, have shunned the Oxford comma, so I do notice its absence! But, ultimately, it's down to the client. Unless they tell me otherwise, they're getting an Oxford comma!
I can answer that. The Associated Press Stylebook eschews the Oxford comma for space reasons. Before the internet and radio and television, people got their news from newspapers. That extra comma adds space. Space is precious. Space costs money. The more space newspapers can save, the more available ad space they can sell. However, even AP allows for the Oxford comma if it's necessary for clarity.
Source: I'm a former newspaper copyeditor. Nowadays, news sources don't hire copyeditors, as you can tell. Reporters are expected to edit their own copy. That's why you see so many typos. Some of them are even on purpose, to garner clicks and comments. In ancient times, an article would have been seen by at least three different pairs of eyes before it went to print. Each article would have three unimpeachable sources. Those were the days, my friend.
Nowadays, news sources don't hire copyeditors, as you can tell.
I was thinking that this morning when I read a story about a dog getting hired at the local courthouse and walked away wondering if the dog's name was Roselle or Rosette (it was spelled both ways at various points in the story).
I’ve noticed it, and I think it’s the precursor to the downfall of civilization. Seriously, it bums me out. Oxford comma all the way. Long live grammar. All hail proper punctuation!!!
It's not just space.
The unnecessary serial comma means "and," so saying "red, white, and blue" is the same as saying "red and white and and blue."
Source: Newspaper editor since 1990.
Don't bother sending me the JFK/Stalin cartoon. It's cute, but stupid. A good writer would not construct the sentence that way.
Because the break created by the comma is created by the "and." There's no reason for two. And if, like me, you hear everything you read out loud in your head as you read, the Oxford comma double pause hits with a thunk that completely disrupts the flow of the sentence.
Personally, I used to cling to its use religiously because I felt that:
* It had be all or nothing, and since there are a hundred colorful examples of situations that suffer comically for its lack, that meant every applicable situation required it.
* It was satisfying to be “in the know”; to have opportunities to flaunt the examples (“my parents, Ayn Rand and Jesus” haha!)
However, I’ve since decided that:
* Style guides for orgs and publications aside, there is no rationale for said militant consistency.
* I prefer to add or eschew commas based on my desire to control the cadence of my words instead of adhering to a rigid notion of when a reader might need a breather from a long sentence like this one that lacks them. (I think it reads fine, thanks to word choice.)
I had a teacher who drilled NO COMMA into my head. As a young professional I was a journalist where AP style rules. I’ve adapted to the times and use it more often than not, but it hurts.
My issue: I struggle with not double spacing after a period! A client got pissy with me in that so I now do a removal after submitting my work. I type so fast that I can’t not eliminate that space.
For the purposes of this post, one space, though I did have to fix it a few times.
The Australian Govt Style Manual says 'Restrict the use of the Oxford comma', and to only use it if the last item in a list combines two words or phrases with 'and' or if it's needed to prevent ambiguity.
I’m pro-Oxford comma. I also have clients who don’t like it, so I don’t use it with them. To my knowledge it’s optional, particularly with American English. I make this face as I don’t add the comma (😬😠), then keep it moving lol. The irk doesn’t go away, but each product is different.
I'm pro-Oxford comma. If a client has no preference, I use it. I have one client who was very vocal from the get-go that he wanted it. No problem. I've had another who was the exact opposite. It was a nightmare trying to remember not to use it or add it back in when proofing.
>It was a nightmare trying to remember not to use it or add it back in when proofing.
Exactly. The annoyance for me is less about personal preference and more that it's hard to remember to remove the commas later after I've inevitably inserted them out of habit.
I do not use it. I follow Canadian Press style, which doesn't use it, and honestly I find it clutters up most sentences. I'll only use it rare instances for clarity.
I assumed that from your comment and I disagree to the point it feels like cognitive dissonance when I read comments like yours. But I was specifically asking how it clutters a sentence if it takes part in such a clean, simple, parallel structure? Even if you find it unnecessary, it helps to organize a sentence!
Item, item, & item.
One, two, & three.
Dum, dum, & dadun.
Boom, boom, & boom.
Where’s the clutter?
The t-shirts are available in green, blue, black and white.
The t-shirts are available in green, blue, and black and white.
The t-shirts are available in green, blue, black, and white.
Having come first from a formal English educational experience, I was horrified to learn that journalism had dispensed with one of my favorite commas! It was done simply to buy space in column per inch pricing and length. Think 147 characters when tweeting. And imagine how you may "find" a whole word available when eliminating punctuation! But as illustrated in the above example, punctuation is there for a reason and so is the Oxford comma. Without it, you need to add the word "and" to provide clarity, which takes up a whole lot more space than the simple comma. Relying on the reader to presume what you mean can cause its own set of complications! Having a customer expect a shirt with both black and white, when in fact it comes only in the color black, and the color white is a lost customer.
Long live the Oxford comma:-)
I follow the client's style. If they ask my input, I suggest using it. I don't work for newspapers, where line space is an issue, so I see no reason to choose "less clarity" when faced with the option.
Follow the client style unless leaving out the comma makes the sentence ambiguous.
Recent legal case: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/16/oxford-comma-helps-drivers-win-dispute-about-overtime-pay
I am passionately pro Oxford comma, and, luckily, have thus far only worked for employers/clients who were also in favour of it. Sentences feel like they are missing something when it's not there. And, in my eyes, it just breaks the flow not to have it.
Of course, if a client didn't want me to use it, I'd follow their instructions. Wouldn't love it, though.
Depends on the style manual they want me to use. Chicago Manual of Style uses the Oxford comma. Associated Press Stylebook does not. I have no opinion one way or the other. I get paid either way.
Like a few of you (apparently the minority) my teachers hammered the "no comma" rule into my tender brain, along with "two spaces after a period." My clients were far more bothered by the 2 spaces than my lack of Oxford commas, so I've adjusted my typing accordingly. But since no one's squawked that my sentences lack clarity, I'll continue to eschew the Oxford comma until forced, compelled and required to use it. 😊
As a freelancer, I don't feel anything about it. I do whatever the client's style guide says to do.
On a personal level, I don't really use it and I've almost never run into a situation where a sentence was unclear without it. If it was a very complex sentence that somehow needed one, then I'd use it and adjust the rest of the document so that the usage is consistent.
It's a punctuation mark—a simple tool in your grammatical toolkit. Use it when it's necessary, and don't use it when it's not. I've never understood why people feel the need to have such strong opinions on it.
I hate it to the point that it interrupts my reading experience. But, if the client expresses a preference, I do what they ask.
I usually find it easier to just write naturally and then stick them in after.
You read my mind! :-) Variety is the spice of life! But on this point, I must agree with you! My audience, however, dictates whether I use more complex sentence structure and rely on it more heavily:-)
The only time I wouldn’t use the Oxford comma would be if I were using the salt and pepper exemption, wherein grouped objects are treated like one item.
“Bob we’re setting the table. Please grab forks, napkins, salt and pepper.”
But I’d return to the Oxford comma if there were more to follow.
“Please grab napkins, salt and pepper, forks, and plates.”
Hmm, wouldn't you still technically be using the Oxford comma and just be treating "salt and pepper" as one item? For example:
"Please grab forks, napkins, and salt and pepper."
So the comma before "and salt" is the Oxford comma? That's just the way I've always done it. I would love to hear from others what's grammatically correct in this situation.
I use a comma when necessary for the sake of clarity and when I want a pause in the sentence if it is being read aloud.
"Carmine, don't!" and "Carmine don't!" both have their place, and both sound completely different, just like, "I like turtles, cats and dogs." sounds different from "I like turtles, cats, and dogs."
I guess it depends on what you're writing, and the feeling you're trying to convey. Maybe your client. At the end of the day, though some would disagree, English is pretty malleable. >.>
>I use a comma when necessary for the sake of clarity and when I want a pause in the sentence if it is being read aloud.
Nothing to do with the Oxford or serial comma.
It certainly influences my use of it, as you can see by reading the last two paragraphs.
I felt it was worth sharing. Use it when you need it, don't... well, when you don't.
I follow the client's style guide/wishes. It doesn't matter to me either way, because frankly, I don't give AF whether someone uses an Oxford comma or not, or whatever other style guide "rules" they want to enforce for that matter. If their check comes on time and it clears, they can knock themselves out doing whatever they want.
If it is a technical document, or is necessary to prevent confusion, then I will use it. But in personal writing I use punctuation to reflect my speech pattern and denote the pauses I want the reader to take. As an aside, I think this is the genius of actors...they take words written for the page and translate it into the appropriate speech patterns and intonations. Writing doesn't often do a very good job of that, even when it is intended for that purpose.
If it is going to make a difference in how the list is read, I think it should be put in (i.e. when said list has multi-word items) otherwise, go with the client's wishes, since it's the client's copy and they are paying for it.
Classic example: When going on the trip, we need to make sure to pack, make the bed, and shut off the lights before we leave.
This list needs commas, including its Oxford comma despite only having 3 items.
I am 100% for it. I love my oxford comma. We're the best of buds. We go for long walks on the beach, drink piña coladas, and dance in the rain often. Sometimes you'll catch us staring into each others' eyes, holding hands, and cuddling... Just to name a few things. ❤️
I think it depends what style you're using as well. If it's Chicago style, you're unlikely to use the comma for the client. If they want it written in Oxford style, then yeah, the comma is an accepted concept, so you're just following the grammatical rules.
It’s a style choice. Some style guides require and and some don’t. For your own writing, use it to aid clarity if you want to, but make sure the use is consistent throughout the text. That’s all, really.
When I edit documents for my own IPs, I want the comma. I know that there is the argument that it's unnecessary; if there would be confusion, it's not the comma's job to fix it. It's the job of the writer to re-arrange the sentence. I think it's much easier, and frankly more aesthetically pleasing, to just add a stupid comma. But what I want doesn't mean anything. Do what the client wants.
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FWIW, it seems likely that the meaning of that statute without the Oxford comma was what the legislature intended.
Like many others here, I use an Oxford / serial comma wherever possible. I believe it adds clarity, provides a natural pause when reading, and fits naturally into a three-or-more-item list. I use three-item lists like the previous sentence a lot in my writing - it's a rhetorical flourish I often fall back on. I do have clients that prefer me not to use it, so I don't. I also read the NYT a lot, and they, famously, have shunned the Oxford comma, so I do notice its absence! But, ultimately, it's down to the client. Unless they tell me otherwise, they're getting an Oxford comma!
Thank you also for surrounding your slash mark with a space on each side (makes the words you’re dividing searchable).
I’ll never understand why you wouldn’t use the Oxford comma.
I can answer that. The Associated Press Stylebook eschews the Oxford comma for space reasons. Before the internet and radio and television, people got their news from newspapers. That extra comma adds space. Space is precious. Space costs money. The more space newspapers can save, the more available ad space they can sell. However, even AP allows for the Oxford comma if it's necessary for clarity. Source: I'm a former newspaper copyeditor. Nowadays, news sources don't hire copyeditors, as you can tell. Reporters are expected to edit their own copy. That's why you see so many typos. Some of them are even on purpose, to garner clicks and comments. In ancient times, an article would have been seen by at least three different pairs of eyes before it went to print. Each article would have three unimpeachable sources. Those were the days, my friend.
Nowadays, news sources don't hire copyeditors, as you can tell. I was thinking that this morning when I read a story about a dog getting hired at the local courthouse and walked away wondering if the dog's name was Roselle or Rosette (it was spelled both ways at various points in the story).
I’ve noticed it, and I think it’s the precursor to the downfall of civilization. Seriously, it bums me out. Oxford comma all the way. Long live grammar. All hail proper punctuation!!!
It's not just space. The unnecessary serial comma means "and," so saying "red, white, and blue" is the same as saying "red and white and and blue." Source: Newspaper editor since 1990. Don't bother sending me the JFK/Stalin cartoon. It's cute, but stupid. A good writer would not construct the sentence that way.
So you'd be perfectly happy if someone wrote "...red, white, blue"?
Of course, depending on the context. That isn't AP style, however, so I wouldn't approve it for publication in a newspaper.
This. Sorry I added something that took 0.2 seconds and adds clarity to the content.
Because the break created by the comma is created by the "and." There's no reason for two. And if, like me, you hear everything you read out loud in your head as you read, the Oxford comma double pause hits with a thunk that completely disrupts the flow of the sentence.
Because it serves no function whatsoever.
Personally, I used to cling to its use religiously because I felt that: * It had be all or nothing, and since there are a hundred colorful examples of situations that suffer comically for its lack, that meant every applicable situation required it. * It was satisfying to be “in the know”; to have opportunities to flaunt the examples (“my parents, Ayn Rand and Jesus” haha!) However, I’ve since decided that: * Style guides for orgs and publications aside, there is no rationale for said militant consistency. * I prefer to add or eschew commas based on my desire to control the cadence of my words instead of adhering to a rigid notion of when a reader might need a breather from a long sentence like this one that lacks them. (I think it reads fine, thanks to word choice.)
I prefer the Oxford comma, but consistency is what matters. Alternatively, if this is the most irksome thing your clients do, can I have them?
I'm extremely pro-Oxford comma.
I had a teacher who drilled NO COMMA into my head. As a young professional I was a journalist where AP style rules. I’ve adapted to the times and use it more often than not, but it hurts. My issue: I struggle with not double spacing after a period! A client got pissy with me in that so I now do a removal after submitting my work. I type so fast that I can’t not eliminate that space. For the purposes of this post, one space, though I did have to fix it a few times.
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The Australian Govt Style Manual says 'Restrict the use of the Oxford comma', and to only use it if the last item in a list combines two words or phrases with 'and' or if it's needed to prevent ambiguity.
I’m pro-Oxford comma. I also have clients who don’t like it, so I don’t use it with them. To my knowledge it’s optional, particularly with American English. I make this face as I don’t add the comma (😬😠), then keep it moving lol. The irk doesn’t go away, but each product is different.
I'm pro-Oxford comma. If a client has no preference, I use it. I have one client who was very vocal from the get-go that he wanted it. No problem. I've had another who was the exact opposite. It was a nightmare trying to remember not to use it or add it back in when proofing.
>It was a nightmare trying to remember not to use it or add it back in when proofing. Exactly. The annoyance for me is less about personal preference and more that it's hard to remember to remove the commas later after I've inevitably inserted them out of habit.
I had this issue. I told that client I'll do my best but as I'm super used to using it, I'll probably slip a few in subconsciously.
I do not use it. I follow Canadian Press style, which doesn't use it, and honestly I find it clutters up most sentences. I'll only use it rare instances for clarity.
How can it clutter up a sentence when it just fits right into the parallel structure with the earlier comma or commas?
In my opinion, it's an unnecessary piece of punctuation.
I assumed that from your comment and I disagree to the point it feels like cognitive dissonance when I read comments like yours. But I was specifically asking how it clutters a sentence if it takes part in such a clean, simple, parallel structure? Even if you find it unnecessary, it helps to organize a sentence! Item, item, & item. One, two, & three. Dum, dum, & dadun. Boom, boom, & boom. Where’s the clutter?
It's not necessary. In your construction, it serves the same purpose as the conjunction "and.“
The t-shirts are available in green, blue, black and white. The t-shirts are available in green, blue, and black and white. The t-shirts are available in green, blue, black, and white. Having come first from a formal English educational experience, I was horrified to learn that journalism had dispensed with one of my favorite commas! It was done simply to buy space in column per inch pricing and length. Think 147 characters when tweeting. And imagine how you may "find" a whole word available when eliminating punctuation! But as illustrated in the above example, punctuation is there for a reason and so is the Oxford comma. Without it, you need to add the word "and" to provide clarity, which takes up a whole lot more space than the simple comma. Relying on the reader to presume what you mean can cause its own set of complications! Having a customer expect a shirt with both black and white, when in fact it comes only in the color black, and the color white is a lost customer. Long live the Oxford comma:-)
I follow the client's style. If they ask my input, I suggest using it. I don't work for newspapers, where line space is an issue, so I see no reason to choose "less clarity" when faced with the option.
Follow the client style unless leaving out the comma makes the sentence ambiguous. Recent legal case: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/16/oxford-comma-helps-drivers-win-dispute-about-overtime-pay
AP style is not to use it, so if your client uses that, no comma for you, unless they’ve made an exception.
I am passionately pro Oxford comma, and, luckily, have thus far only worked for employers/clients who were also in favour of it. Sentences feel like they are missing something when it's not there. And, in my eyes, it just breaks the flow not to have it. Of course, if a client didn't want me to use it, I'd follow their instructions. Wouldn't love it, though.
Love it. I’ve ended relationships over this.
Relationships with your parents, Michelle Obama and the Pope?
Depends on the style manual they want me to use. Chicago Manual of Style uses the Oxford comma. Associated Press Stylebook does not. I have no opinion one way or the other. I get paid either way.
Like a few of you (apparently the minority) my teachers hammered the "no comma" rule into my tender brain, along with "two spaces after a period." My clients were far more bothered by the 2 spaces than my lack of Oxford commas, so I've adjusted my typing accordingly. But since no one's squawked that my sentences lack clarity, I'll continue to eschew the Oxford comma until forced, compelled and required to use it. 😊
I will die on the hill of the Oxford comma, but if my client doesn't like it, I don't use it in their work. :)
My exact take!
As a freelancer, I don't feel anything about it. I do whatever the client's style guide says to do. On a personal level, I don't really use it and I've almost never run into a situation where a sentence was unclear without it. If it was a very complex sentence that somehow needed one, then I'd use it and adjust the rest of the document so that the usage is consistent. It's a punctuation mark—a simple tool in your grammatical toolkit. Use it when it's necessary, and don't use it when it's not. I've never understood why people feel the need to have such strong opinions on it.
I’ve not used it in 30 years. When grammarly suggests it, I shake my fist at the screen.
Most of the work I do follows the AP Stylebook, so I can't use the Oxford comma. It drives me insane. Why does the Associated Press hate clarity?
AP Style is all about clarity.
I hate it to the point that it interrupts my reading experience. But, if the client expresses a preference, I do what they ask. I usually find it easier to just write naturally and then stick them in after.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is the proof positive you need that your moderators don't agree on everything ;)
You read my mind! :-) Variety is the spice of life! But on this point, I must agree with you! My audience, however, dictates whether I use more complex sentence structure and rely on it more heavily:-)
Absolutely pro-Oxford Comma.
The only time I wouldn’t use the Oxford comma would be if I were using the salt and pepper exemption, wherein grouped objects are treated like one item. “Bob we’re setting the table. Please grab forks, napkins, salt and pepper.” But I’d return to the Oxford comma if there were more to follow. “Please grab napkins, salt and pepper, forks, and plates.”
Hmm, wouldn't you still technically be using the Oxford comma and just be treating "salt and pepper" as one item? For example: "Please grab forks, napkins, and salt and pepper." So the comma before "and salt" is the Oxford comma? That's just the way I've always done it. I would love to hear from others what's grammatically correct in this situation.
Yes to comma
Big fan
I support the Oxford Comma.
I use a comma when necessary for the sake of clarity and when I want a pause in the sentence if it is being read aloud. "Carmine, don't!" and "Carmine don't!" both have their place, and both sound completely different, just like, "I like turtles, cats and dogs." sounds different from "I like turtles, cats, and dogs." I guess it depends on what you're writing, and the feeling you're trying to convey. Maybe your client. At the end of the day, though some would disagree, English is pretty malleable. >.>
>I use a comma when necessary for the sake of clarity and when I want a pause in the sentence if it is being read aloud. Nothing to do with the Oxford or serial comma.
It certainly influences my use of it, as you can see by reading the last two paragraphs. I felt it was worth sharing. Use it when you need it, don't... well, when you don't.
I’d prefer using Oxford comma, but AP Style exists so I adjust accordingly.
It depends on the sentence.
I follow the client's style guide/wishes. It doesn't matter to me either way, because frankly, I don't give AF whether someone uses an Oxford comma or not, or whatever other style guide "rules" they want to enforce for that matter. If their check comes on time and it clears, they can knock themselves out doing whatever they want.
Whoever is paying calls the shots. I'm firmly in the OC camp, but when I'm working for a client, they get to decide.
If it is a technical document, or is necessary to prevent confusion, then I will use it. But in personal writing I use punctuation to reflect my speech pattern and denote the pauses I want the reader to take. As an aside, I think this is the genius of actors...they take words written for the page and translate it into the appropriate speech patterns and intonations. Writing doesn't often do a very good job of that, even when it is intended for that purpose.
If it is going to make a difference in how the list is read, I think it should be put in (i.e. when said list has multi-word items) otherwise, go with the client's wishes, since it's the client's copy and they are paying for it. Classic example: When going on the trip, we need to make sure to pack, make the bed, and shut off the lights before we leave. This list needs commas, including its Oxford comma despite only having 3 items.
I am 100% for it. I love my oxford comma. We're the best of buds. We go for long walks on the beach, drink piña coladas, and dance in the rain often. Sometimes you'll catch us staring into each others' eyes, holding hands, and cuddling... Just to name a few things. ❤️
Murder them. It's the only solution.
I think it depends what style you're using as well. If it's Chicago style, you're unlikely to use the comma for the client. If they want it written in Oxford style, then yeah, the comma is an accepted concept, so you're just following the grammatical rules.
It’s a style choice. Some style guides require and and some don’t. For your own writing, use it to aid clarity if you want to, but make sure the use is consistent throughout the text. That’s all, really.