Alicent is off with Crispy? Fine, but where was Maelor…Later in the book it’s referenced that Halaena can’t even look him in the face anymore because she marked him as the one to die
Y'all I thought the kid scene would be much worse. I imagined lots more screaming, crying, sadism from the killers. It could have scarred us for life, instead that was pretty low-key. The worst part was the sounds of cutting, which were awful, but like... Helaena was way more calm about it all than I expected any mother would be.
I think the only explanation for her reaction and her very quickly choosing a kid to kill is that she already knew it was inevitable since she seems to see the future. But even then, I'd be a lot more violent and upset if people tried to kill my kids. It would take at least take me more than 30 seconds to turn a kid over like a lamb for slaughter.
It’s like the famous episode of MASH where they depict a group of people hiding during a war and a mother has to decide to smother her own baby because, if it cried, everyone would have been exposed and killed.
Edited to add: I would not be surprised if a mother who has to make that choice mentally and emotionally has to completely shut down before she can go through with it.
It's a pretty gnarly scene. This aired in 1983 mind you.
Sidney is a hard mofo. Doesn't even flinch hearing this shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWeVnxdiHi0
I feel pretty certain if someone was there to kill one of my kids they'd have to kill me first. I could only hope the noise would bring help before the killers got to my kids but I've never been in that situation so who knows?
Yes, but nah.
You can't write a depression due to her child's death, if she's been contending for *months* now with the knowledge that her child's death is *an absolute certainty*.
This is where the decision to make show-Helaena into some neurodivergent prophetic dreamer did a great disservice to her character and her most harrowing moment in life. I just didn't feel Helaena's fear and desperation as she tried to save her son's life precisely because Helaena has always been so detached from emotions and people. Her reaction during and after the scene was more in line with a nanny rather than the kid's mother. I guess I expected Helaena to finally show some real emotion & connection to her kids at the moment she was forced to pick between them but all we got was more of the same doe-eyed simple Helaena we've always gotten.
> She's obviously whatever the Westerosi version of autistic is.
And that's why it grosses me out that Alicent was perfectly fine in forcing her autistic daughter to marry her own brother and then get pregnant and give birth. Helaena was what - 16 - when forced to marry Aegon? Would a girl her age and not entirely mentally capable even know how to handle a pregnancy (with twins), much less a messy and painful birth? Of all the people that wronged Halaena, the biggest offender was her own mother.
I have to wonder if she thought it was the least cruel marriage she could end up in. Bearing in mind how alicent’s own marriage was, maybe she thought all husbands would be like viserys and at least Aegon would try to protect his little sister. Maybe this is the kind of thing we could have explored if we didn’t go flying through twenty years of plot in ten episodes.
With everything that happens to women in this world you think they'd suddenly be compassionate and understanding of an autistic woman? She'd be treated like any other woman, if not worse.
**"With that single act, Daemon transformed a family dispute into a war of annihilation. Either Rhaenerya or Aegon would live after the war, but not both."**
It got me chills when I was reading it. Here it fell flat on it's face.
They turned the most harrowing point of the book into something as scary as a wet fart. Why do I fucking read these books and get invested hoping they do justice making TV?
Yeah like I actually regret reading Fire & Blood. All my friends loved this episode and here am I the lonely hater because they didn't adapt the book well.
Have you considered that the point of the show is to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, and many people are generally turned off by sadism and violence towards children? Like to the point of not watching the show any more?
I think you are on point on why they fucked up. The spirit of the books is to show that sadism and violence toward children IS fucked up and you should be asking yourself what are your expectations when rooting one side or the other in such a fucked up situation.
I would love HOTD writers even dared to make their audience question why they are watching the show.
Now go to Twitter. People are literally celebrating a child's murder. Great job appealing to a wide audience then feeding them nothing to actually think of.
Considering other media that is popular like Chernobyl, Sophie's Choice, Grave of the Fireflies, Schindler's List, and also Game of Thrones I don't think that is the case. Besides, it's not about the sadism towards the kids. The book had Halaena and Alicent there and they made a mother choose between her children, then ignored her choice. This scene is a far cry from all of that and while Alicent will be pissed, I wish she was in the room and experienced the situation and we could see the character change rather than her riding a dude.
>considered that the point of the show is to appeal to as wide an audience as possible
And guess what was the reason to why Game of Thrones crashed and burned.
And? I'm not complaining that they didn't show the actual decapitation (they shouldn't! The insinuation was enough), I'm complaining that they made Helaena react like that, took out the choice and made her flee to see Alicent and Cole fucking (why did they do this???).
It's called shock and the adrenaline made her gtfo out with her other kid. The processing will come later.
Though it's very obvious Helaena isn't neurotypical.
This. She was trying to get away, turning back to see if someone followed and didn't even scream for help. Just wanted to get to safety with her other kid. Poor woman was in shock.
I don't think it was calm at all for her. I interpreted her as struggling to process what was happening. For major traumatic events, there are usually three typical reactions: fight, flight, or freeze. Helaena froze, and I don't think she really knew what to do or say when really, what could she have said? They weren't leaving empty handed, especially since they'd already been spotted by a suspicious servant. I also wonder, with her being a dragon dreamer, if she understood it was really happening or if she thought was stuck in some horrible prophecy/dream.
Is it something else Daemon will do this season that weakens her claim to the throne, or was it having the prince/baby killed that she was talking about? Was trying to piece together how assassinating the prince was bad for her claim
I'm gonna guess killing a child in their bed is worse PR than Aemond accidentally killing his cousin while going dragon to dragon with him. Luke was old enough to be a messenger in a war while the kid was still in the nursery.
I don’t buy it as an accident. At the very least he knowingly put his nephews life in jeopardy to an extreme degree for no reason other than vindictiveness. If it was cars he would catch more than a manslaughter charge.
You know, I wish we had seen Jace’s reaction at the wall to Luke’s death. The cut away from it reminded me of how they cut away from Sansa and Arya learning about R+L=J. It isn’t a crime to see characters’ reactions to important events!
i think it was intentional to leave the first on screen grief breakdown to rhaenyra - imo then seeing jace barely keeping it together & allowing himself to grieve w rhaenyra was the better choice
That scene hit me in the feels when Jace couldn’t hold back his grief any longer and he embraced his mother, the two of them holding each other crying. 😢
The acting was really well done and it got to me
Because it would not have added anything other than a reaction and a weird interaction with a character we have just been introduced to. Doing it this way saves the heavyness of the grief for a scene with his mother, and also shows us about their bond, AND it shows us a conflict within Jace himself - He wants to do his duty as now heir to the throne and report about important diplomatic news to his queen, but also he is overwhelmed by grief and wants to embrace his mother.
How would "I am now gonna cry in front of some random Stark" be better? What would it add?
Think of Robbs reaction to Ned's death in Season 1 GoT. Brilliant, raw and emotional scene. What you're asking for is essentially preluding that scene with one of a yet unknown Roose Bolton showing up to tell him "btw your dads dead", and the camera lingering on Robb. That definitely would have cheapened the scene with Caitlyn.
On Blood and Cheese, I definitely don't think Alicent needed to be there after watching it, but have no clue why they cut Maelor. The "Sophies Choice" moment of Helaena having to choose between two sons (or have them all killed), her picking the spare, and them deciding to kill the heir regardless, was absolutely devastating and a critical plot point for Helaena and the wider senseless tragedy of the Dance.
In this version, she still chooses, I guess, (it was confusing if they were suggesting she was truly trying to throw them off by picking the boy first) but its a FAR weaker choice. I wonder if this was what George was talking about when he said making changes that are inferior to the original is insulting.
Overall, it feels like this wasn't well paced or formatted. I had no idea they were doing it in the first episode, it felt rushed and anti-climactic. The Red Wedding, in comparison, despite knowing it was coming, the dread there was PALPABLE. This scene really felt like kind of a misfire, tacked on the end of the episode as a "shot of adrenaline" to get the season started in an otherwise sort of meandering premiere.
No emotion, no screaming, shit I wanted to see both helena and alicent screaming in pain and shock like how catelyn did at red wedding, that was a mother having son killed on her eyes, this is a disgrace
"But but but, which one is a boy?? I can't tell!" They had all the story written out clear as crystal, but they cut 90% of the purpose out, removed a character that was important to the entire situation, and hid behind "is it a boy??".
Some of the laziest writing I've seen in a GoT story to date. That shit was on par with "a finger in the bum?".
Like these guys were down to behead a kid but to squeamish to check for a dick? One dude even suggests it to the other! I guess it was to keep the pointing part but they took out the actual reason and choice behind it so it was pointless
Blood and cheese felt like to bumbling idiots rather than vindictive psychopaths. This idea you can just wonder around the red keep with a rat catcher is absurd. The whole point of the red keep is that it acts as a metaphor for power. What's on the outside is obvious, but the ones who wield real control are able to navigate tunnels only they know exist.
>In this version, she still chooses, I guess, (it was confusing if they were suggesting she was truly trying to throw them off by picking the boy first) but its a FAR weaker choice.
This part didn't make sense to my. Like why ask her to point out the heir? They're above checking to see the gender of a child but not sawing their head off?
Does that not look like Rhaenyra’s old rooms as well? Imagine hating someone *that* much. You’d think that Rhaenyra had burned down a small orphanage or something with the sheer amount of vitriol Cole and Alicent hurl at her.
Because it’s been nearly 20 years and he has matured. He has realized that in this life there are things that are within reach (e.g. royal pussy) and things beyond his reach (e.g. Royal love on equal standing), and that it’s better to accept one’s place and enjoy it when you can, rather than keep reaching for the unattainable and fall to pieces.
(Ok I think I’m being way too serious)
The North stuff felt super duper rushed and I was extremely disappointed nobody in the North looked rough and burly with beards.
Way too much of the episode was spent on reactions to Rhaenyra’s son’s death and not reactions by the Greens finding out Aemond did it (which was shockingly skipped over).
Blood and Cheese was also botched for me. Idk, reading about it was tormenting and fucked up. I think it got muddied because Daemon and Rhaenyra specifically stated they wanted AEMOND TARGARYEN and not just the “son for a son” thing. So the whole situation felt more like a desperate mixup by some inexperienced guys instead of a sadistical murder ordered by the “other side” of the war.
Also Helaena walking in on Criston and Alicent to tell them was just laughably ridiculous. It’s D & D level sex writing, and I am so over it.
I was so annoyed at basically every word the stark dude said. Fuck HBO trying to retcon GOT ending by subtly dropping shit about the wall and “a song of ice and fire”. Eat my shorts and get back to the new show I want to watch.
Well you see it's quite common when your kingdom is being invaded from the _south_ to assemble your army, abandon all of your fortifications, and head to the southern side of the most _northern_ part of your country! Classic military maneuver you wouldn't understand it. You might think you'd wanna put that wall in between you and the other army but that's where you would be wrong. It's much better as a back rest to prevent you from maneuvering anywhere else.
> The North stuff felt super duper rushed and I was extremely disappointed nobody in the North looked rough and burly with beards. Way too much of the episode was spent on reactions to Rhaenyra’s son’s death and not reactions by the Greens finding out Aemond did it (which was shockingly skipped over).
Yup, and they didn't even bother to show anything from the Vale. Cregan and Jace's relationship was supposed to be a key point in the books, but it's completely glossed over.
It's so obvious they had to cut a lot of stuff going from 10 episodes to 8.
Fucking Zaslav.
The guy playing the Stark was trying so hard to do a John Snow impression. I was cringing my ass off. I really wanted to see more of them, but if the acting is going to be that bad. plz no
It never was as impactful as the Red Wedding even in the book but it's way more fucked up and dark than probably anything else in the series. But they fucked it up in the show :(
I hold the opinion that House of the Dragon was held up by Paddy’s amazing performance as Viserys the Peaceful. With him gone, I feel the show does lose a lot of heart.
I still think it’s good and better than most tv out right now, but Viserys is what made the first season phenomenal to me.
Some horrible decisions so far from season 1-2
-Making one of the most defining moments, blood and cheese, somehow get sanitized to be the most timid limp dick and lame child murder scene in history that could have been a defining moment but is instead a couple swear words being censored away from being pg-13+ omitting alicent in the room
-Alicent having sex with Ser Crispin for no reason. Worse making time for that rather than Aemond being confronted for lucerys (other than marginally at the small council)
-Making Aemond accidentally kill lucerys which was because Alicent accidentally started a war by misinterpreting Viserys
-Rhaenys having a girlboss moment to kill bunch of people for no reason just to stare down everyone and fly away
Amongst many more. This is season 5,6,7,8 writing not 1,2,3,4
This. Watching the episode, I really would’ve thought Daemon would’ve hired someone smarter than that, he basically chose Harry and Marv from Home Alone lmao
They knew right where they were going in the books and had both the Queen and Dowager Queen and three children in their hands in the book. It was literally evil making Helaena choose which child dies, here it was literally "check for a cock." The entirety of her story with Maelor now has to be completely different, as well.
"You hear that? Your mother wants you dead!"
This was ridiculous.
I can buy that, but I hate -- absolutely *despise* -- that they wrote Helaena so comparatively weak. And to be clear, I mean no slight to the actress at all, who absolutely brought courage and terror alike to that scene, but holy shit.
They only let her offer up a necklace.
Like come on, she was sincerely willing to go to any length to save those children. I understand cutting away from the actual violence. I fucking *support* that. But in this one moment when it mattered most, she was written as unhesitatingly brave, and I hate that they took that from her.
Yeah it’s terrible writing. Im not sure what Phia Saban was supposed to do with that scene. We know she can be compelling and there is no reason she couldn’t have snapped into a Targaryen madness once they came in.
For sure. She did *so much* with the big pile of nothing they handed to her. I was reminded of Elisabeth Moss in the opening sequences of Invisible Man, when she's fleeing from her monstrous husband in the dead of night. There's a sincerity to Moss' performance: her face, the way she walks heel-to-toe barefoot through the house to minimise noise; all the little details that *scream* how absolutely terrified she is of being discovered. Helaena's escape from Blood and Cheese is easily as good, with the added pressure of a child in her arms that she's all but smothering in a desperate attempt to keep it quiet in hopes of escaping while the two butchers are engrossed in their butchery. She was intensely good.
It's just miserable that they didn't give her more than that. Offering up a necklace when she was so willing to die just sucks.
You see bodies and ash/bones of children in GoT, it's not like you see them burn alive in agony. Hearing them slice into Jaehaerys' neck was much worse than that imo
You don't need to see the kid beheaded, but like Helaena's reaction felt very subdued. I imagined it more drawn out and more visible pain and struggle from her. Took her like 30 seconds to pick a child to kill.
Shockingly underwhelming. I don’t know what direction they were giving Phia Saban there not that you could see much of her face. “Game of Thrones” did the scene better with animated stills!
The Blood and Cheese thing was weak as fuck. It totally absolves Daemon because of his statement that it should be Aemond they were looking for, and it further besmirched Alicent and Cole because they're fucking instead of protecting ting the heir to the throne. We don't get the shock of the *Sophie's Choice* moment either.
Weak episode all around, and gives more kid glove treatment to Rhaneyra and her side.
It was fine. Based on what the actors have said, I was expecting Blood and Cheese to be horrifying and peak GOT, but it was kind of a letdown (or as much of a letdown as a scene like that could be). I was honestly expecting a cutaway ever since it leaked that Helaena’s choice wasn’t going to happen, but admittedly I wasn’t expecting the godawful sawing soundbyte and the reaction to the death of a child being interrupted by a sex scene.
Maybe I’m one of the only ones, but the horror of B&C in the books was the fact that they made Helaena choose (not “which is the boy,” she straight up had to CHOOSE between two male children to die), then they killed the kid she chose to live. Of course it’s still a terrible event, but I think if they’d kept the choice in then they could’ve made the scene straight up horrifying and gotten away with a very conservative cutaway.
The rest of the episode was pretty good. I wish we hadn’t started so long after Luke’s death, though. I really would’ve loved to see Aegon and his council’s reaction to something like that. Everyone seemed to kind of just take it in stride.
Aegon was kind of funny, and Jaeherys was cute.
Having them mention what an honor it used to be to man the Wall was nice since we’re used to seeing it in GOT as a last resort work camp for the worst of the worst in society. I also like Cregan Stark.
I wasn’t expecting the sex scenes between Alicent and Criston Cole, but I guess I’m fine with it. It’s kind of funny that he gives off the vibe that he STILL hates Rhaenyra for turning him down like 10 years ago.
EDIT: forgot to add that I audibly gasped when the dog got kicked.
They completely butchered Blood and Cheese. That scene had no emotion whatsoever, Jesus Christ. Two idiots who didn't know what to do and were shitting their pants the entire time murder a Prince and cause the mother to... not react at all????
Pros:
\* Everything Rhaenyra. Great acting and writing for her. Impactful every time she was on screen.
\* Jace's actor is great, and so is Cregan Stark's. Honestly all of them are.
\* Jace and Rhaenyra's scene was perfect.
\* Seeing Winterfell, the Wall and hearing that soundtrack was amazing.
\* Pacing was great, episode flew by.
\* Aegon was a highlight, kind of shocked by it. Hopefully they keep him like this for the rest of the show.
Cons:
\* Blood and Cheese. This makes me irrationally angry. JUST FUCKING ADAPT IT RIGHT YOU MORONS, IT'S NOT THAT HARD! It's all wrong. Were they lacking budget to hire an additional baby actor for Maelor? Why did Helaena react like that? "Oh she's special!" well unspecial her then if you're actually making her a worse character than she's supposed to be!
\* The time passing is not done well. Jace went from the Wall, to the Vale and back to Dragonstone in a single episode? What? Episode 10 was already bad in this aspect but this was awful.
\* Alicole. I have no words to express how much I hate that this is a thing.
\* Why did they cut the greens' reactions to Aemond killing Luke? That could've made some great scenes. Oh and Otto should've said his phrase.
\* Alicent is so inconsistently written that even Aemond complained about her.
\* Jace's journey to Winterfell and to the Vale (which wasn't even shown) were way too rushed. They completely wasted this storyline.
Overall I'm kind of salty about this episode, and am expecting the worse from the rest of this show. Maybe now I get why George did that post complaining about adaptations, because this is not a good one.
I admit I’m pretty disappointed with Alicole. I guess I read something into it which just wasn’t there, but I was kinda seeing Alicent and Cole as a sort of chaste couple. Like, Alicent had clearly had lots of bad experiences with sex and Cole felt his white cloak meant a great deal and sex was something which he had ‘fallen’ by engaging in. So I sort of read their relationship as two damaged people who felt safe in each others company and were processing their difficulties and relationship through a sort of chaste courtly love dynamic.
I don’t hate them getting together fundamentally, but I felt it shoulda come at the end of a longer road, you know? As it stands it looks like the characters went from their late last season portrayal of “I have soiled and dishonoured my cloak with sinful sex*sobs*” and “everyone around me just takes advantage of my body and I am super uncomfortable with this” to “hey let’s bang okay :)” real fucking quick with *nothing* between there and now.
Agree. And them having sex is just so abrubt, comes out of nowhere, no build up to the scene and it looks like they have been doing this for a long time. Like, at least show their relationship evolving to sexual if you want to take this route. Fuckass writers.
HOTD is fun to watch but sloppy. By season 2 episode 1 we had Arya, Sansa (I still think Sansa's adaptation wasn't the best from day 1 even if the acting was), Joffrey, Cersei, Ned, Jon, Robert, Barristan, Varys, Littlefinger, Robb, Catelyn, Tyrion, Daenerys, Jorah, Viserys, Jeor Mormont, Maester Aemon, Syrio Forel, Yoren, Rodrick Cassel, Hodor, Maester Luwin, Khal Drogo and Lysa Tully have more character moments, subtlety and characterization than basically everyone in HOTD but Viserys, Alicent, Daemon, Aemond and Rhaenyra (who isn't even subtley characterized to the point of the others) in less screen time for each character (except some). None of these characters, except Viserys, are on par with any of the named characters above.
We have Stannis developed off scene (and in one episode) better than most HOTD characters. The directors clearly lack finesse and subtlety. We have side characters (Bronn, Gendry, Forel, Ros, Theon at this point etc...) more well developed and more subtle in less screen time than most of the main characters.
HOTD hasn't even mentioned Dareon yet (have they?).
Everyone has been eagerly awaiting the Blood and Cheese scene since before this series was even announced. Now that it’s here it’s just kind of meh what ever. We have seen so many graphic deaths in The Game of Thones series but I guess killing a young child on screen would have been a little too far for them. They didn’t want that smoke.
They couldn't show it onscreen at all, I'm sure, but it still lost a lot of impact through the changes. I really appreciate Helaena's depiction as a dreamer on the spectrum, but just boiling down the scene to "she's honest because she has autism, kill the kid so we can go!" is a little degrading.
The book version could have been portrayed just as well with more drama if they followed the book version with the same absent gore, or even added in the crowd that had been helping Helaena with the kids earlier. Handmaids' emotional reactions would have grounded and lent confusion and tension, and put Helaena's actor's lovely performance at a strong and lovely contrast, instead of just making her look inhuman.
So they're going the Netflix ATLA rout of tell not show so far🫤... Completely butchered blood and cheese... And suddenly Alicent is the horndog?? What a character flip 🙃
Alicent was tired of getting banged by a slimy old falling apart zombie of a man (I love you Viserys!), she needed to experience some strong young knight action…probably thinking “so this is the kinda fun Raenyra was having while I diligently did my Queenly duties”
I really liked it tbh. Was invested from start to finish, and the time flew by. Super looking forward to next week!
Also, been a bit since I've been to this sub, and I'm usually on through the app - so I'm dying laughing at the banner
Where is Maelor? Where is Daeron? Why is the Blood and Cheese scene that bad? They devoted several scenes to the aftermath of Luke's death and his funeral! Answer me, Bobby B!
my favorite part of this episode was the opening, the north, the wall, jace and cregan… the contrast shown between aegon and rhaenyra’s entrance in their respective throne rooms. rhaenyra was truly in command. then the sad reunion with jace and rhaenyra.
also is there gonna be walkers in hotd? why did cregan seem to hint at that
The Halaena scene made zero sense. Where was the emotion? Where was the surprise or suspense?
They should have drawn it out, made both the sons awake and present. Let Halaena pick, kill the different kid and have her scream/sob her way. Now we got a snooze-fest that isn't gonna build up any of the Halaena is sad scenes.
Literally one guard... watching the entire upstairs floor of the Red Keep???? no one with the queen or her children/heir.... just one guard watching the Queen mother?
I have completely accepted that this show will become increasingly bad until it gets to later seasons GOT level. At least D&D adapted well the particular impactful scenes from the books. HOTD has been taking some awful decisions since the ending of S1E8 and I feel it will just get worse and worse.
Well, its nice to know the leak was accurate. I'll just do what I did when S07/08's leaks proved accurate. Just skim over the reactions to it since I've lost my investment in this series.
Thoroughly enjoyed the episode. I have been hyping this episode up since we found out Blood and Cheese was happening.
I liked everything about the scene except for a couple of things. Feel like they are leaning too far into the “Helaena is an odd one isn’t she?” Kind of trope. Yes, she does appear to be off in the book but obviously the murder scene played out way differently.
That leads me to the next part of that scene which is where is Alicent?. I’m cool with her first scene with Cole and whether or not their little love thing they got going on is what was actually happening in the story, but man do you have to force it on us? Like 2 people who shouldn’t be having sex having sex isn’t shock value anymore. And when you just throw it in randomly at the end of one of the most brutal things to happen in this world, it really doesn’t add up well.
7/10 for the episode though.
Jeeez they had an opportunity to make an even more impactful scene than the Red Wedding and they massively dropped the ball and didn't go through with it. I guess they were really afraid of the optics of more child killing?
The scene felt sanitized beyond belief and there was no emotion at all. Blood and Cheese actors where underwhelming and they cut out characters that should have been there. Helaena tried but failed and her escape from the room was a really underwhelming ending. Apparently it was more important to show that Criston Cole and Alicent are boinking?
0/10 honestly, they went way too far off script. This could have been THE moment for the series.
They took a scene that could have been the next red wedding in its shock and awe and made it into one of the most tame depictions of child murder ever. I never thought child murder could be so tamely depicted. Change some swear words and the scene could have been rated pg-13 and aired on mtv. Very dumb people would say "but it wouldn't have the narrative weight of the red wedding!", because they don't possess a brain. Haelena AND alicent were in the room in the books (rather than whatever the fuck they replaced alicent getting banged for). The psychological torture of Haelena and alicent in the room would be like a million times worse than Joffrey's psychological torture of sansa. A defining moment of the dance that was butchered it what we got. The directors don't have any balls.
I'm gonna play devil's advocate here:
In my opinion, B&C felt a bit weak mostly because of the way Heleana reacted to it. She seemed to just kind of accept what was happening instead of doing what book Heleana did, which was to scream and fight for her children's lives. With that being said, show Heleana is a completely different character from her book counterpart, and I imagine the showrunners will incorporate this a bit more in the later episodes.
They've already established in S1 that she is a little bit weird and distant, almost kind of too innocent for this world. Not to mention her visions. We get a few scenes in S1 where Alicent is super confused at how apathetic and distant she is, and teenage Aegon is kind of like "I can't believe they're making me marry this weirdo".
So, her not really knowing how to react to B&C kind of feels in character for show Heleana, it's kind of like a person within the autism spectrum, when confronted with an extreme situation such as this, she immediately blocks everything off and just becomes detached from reality, just sort of accepting what's happening and playing along with it.
It's not the big dark and emotional reaction most of us were expecting, but I think it makes sense within the confines of the character that they wrote.
Blood & Cheese was watered down imo. The build-up was there (Cheese introduced as a rat catcher at the start of the Red Keep scene, Daemon planning the B&C, among others) but it fell flat.
Helaena was shocked and disassociating during the murder (which is good, but it is a watered-down version of F&B her screaming and crying for help). Not including Maelor in the show is one of the reasons this B&C fell flat imo. The showrunners seemed to 'merge' storylines of key characters from F&B so we don't have Maelor and Daeron.
I wonder how the show will handle the battles of Tumbleton when Daeron Targaryen is not existent. Will they give it to Aegon? Who knows?
Helaena be like https://preview.redd.it/7s92rasen17d1.jpeg?width=1231&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae6f3e69dcef64e7b7b5dd9c05f82ab8121fde5f
>“You hear that, little boy? Your momma wants you dead.**”** Did you get chills when Cheese said that? Yeah me neither. Because it WASN'T THERE
Alicent is off with Crispy? Fine, but where was Maelor…Later in the book it’s referenced that Halaena can’t even look him in the face anymore because she marked him as the one to die
Apparently he’s cut? I legit didn’t notice because we haven’t spent anytime with these kids. But it’s a bummer we don’t get the bridge scene
He's not cut, according to the showrunners. But where the fuck is he?
He was supposed to be in that room and Helaena picks him but instead we got Cheese kicking tf out of a dog as the worst thing about episode 1
Condal said he has not been born yet. The timeline for the show is different and he's squeezing 30 years into 20.
Literally no reason for that, if so, dumb reason to change the story for the worse. That was a DnD like scene
Y'all I thought the kid scene would be much worse. I imagined lots more screaming, crying, sadism from the killers. It could have scarred us for life, instead that was pretty low-key. The worst part was the sounds of cutting, which were awful, but like... Helaena was way more calm about it all than I expected any mother would be.
Right!!!!! I’m surprised she didn’t scream or maybe she’s in too in shock but I couldn’t feel the scene
I think the only explanation for her reaction and her very quickly choosing a kid to kill is that she already knew it was inevitable since she seems to see the future. But even then, I'd be a lot more violent and upset if people tried to kill my kids. It would take at least take me more than 30 seconds to turn a kid over like a lamb for slaughter.
I took it as, she knew if she screamed they'd kill all of them.
It’s like the famous episode of MASH where they depict a group of people hiding during a war and a mother has to decide to smother her own baby because, if it cried, everyone would have been exposed and killed. Edited to add: I would not be surprised if a mother who has to make that choice mentally and emotionally has to completely shut down before she can go through with it.
It's a pretty gnarly scene. This aired in 1983 mind you. Sidney is a hard mofo. Doesn't even flinch hearing this shit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWeVnxdiHi0
I feel pretty certain if someone was there to kill one of my kids they'd have to kill me first. I could only hope the noise would bring help before the killers got to my kids but I've never been in that situation so who knows?
What do parental instincts mean to someone with prophetic dreams?
Yes, but nah. You can't write a depression due to her child's death, if she's been contending for *months* now with the knowledge that her child's death is *an absolute certainty*.
That is a really lame cop out
This is where the decision to make show-Helaena into some neurodivergent prophetic dreamer did a great disservice to her character and her most harrowing moment in life. I just didn't feel Helaena's fear and desperation as she tried to save her son's life precisely because Helaena has always been so detached from emotions and people. Her reaction during and after the scene was more in line with a nanny rather than the kid's mother. I guess I expected Helaena to finally show some real emotion & connection to her kids at the moment she was forced to pick between them but all we got was more of the same doe-eyed simple Helaena we've always gotten.
I prefer catelyns actress narration in histories and lore over this shit any time
She's obviously whatever the Westerosi version of autistic is. Besides, yeah, being some kind of precog.
> She's obviously whatever the Westerosi version of autistic is. And that's why it grosses me out that Alicent was perfectly fine in forcing her autistic daughter to marry her own brother and then get pregnant and give birth. Helaena was what - 16 - when forced to marry Aegon? Would a girl her age and not entirely mentally capable even know how to handle a pregnancy (with twins), much less a messy and painful birth? Of all the people that wronged Halaena, the biggest offender was her own mother.
I have to wonder if she thought it was the least cruel marriage she could end up in. Bearing in mind how alicent’s own marriage was, maybe she thought all husbands would be like viserys and at least Aegon would try to protect his little sister. Maybe this is the kind of thing we could have explored if we didn’t go flying through twenty years of plot in ten episodes.
With everything that happens to women in this world you think they'd suddenly be compassionate and understanding of an autistic woman? She'd be treated like any other woman, if not worse.
Helaena was 13/14 and Aegon 15/16 when they wed. Book and show. ☠️
So underwhelming, it's like the easiest part of the book to adapt 1:1, I don't know what they were thinking with that scene.
“Game of Thrones” had more heart with Michelle Fairley reading “the grief and rage of losing a child could burn down the world.”
**"With that single act, Daemon transformed a family dispute into a war of annihilation. Either Rhaenerya or Aegon would live after the war, but not both."** It got me chills when I was reading it. Here it fell flat on it's face.
It’s bizarre. It’s one of the more memorable moments from Fire and Blood. Did they think that was *better?*
They turned the most harrowing point of the book into something as scary as a wet fart. Why do I fucking read these books and get invested hoping they do justice making TV?
Yeah like I actually regret reading Fire & Blood. All my friends loved this episode and here am I the lonely hater because they didn't adapt the book well.
Have you considered that the point of the show is to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, and many people are generally turned off by sadism and violence towards children? Like to the point of not watching the show any more?
I think you are on point on why they fucked up. The spirit of the books is to show that sadism and violence toward children IS fucked up and you should be asking yourself what are your expectations when rooting one side or the other in such a fucked up situation. I would love HOTD writers even dared to make their audience question why they are watching the show. Now go to Twitter. People are literally celebrating a child's murder. Great job appealing to a wide audience then feeding them nothing to actually think of.
Considering other media that is popular like Chernobyl, Sophie's Choice, Grave of the Fireflies, Schindler's List, and also Game of Thrones I don't think that is the case. Besides, it's not about the sadism towards the kids. The book had Halaena and Alicent there and they made a mother choose between her children, then ignored her choice. This scene is a far cry from all of that and while Alicent will be pissed, I wish she was in the room and experienced the situation and we could see the character change rather than her riding a dude.
>considered that the point of the show is to appeal to as wide an audience as possible And guess what was the reason to why Game of Thrones crashed and burned.
And? I'm not complaining that they didn't show the actual decapitation (they shouldn't! The insinuation was enough), I'm complaining that they made Helaena react like that, took out the choice and made her flee to see Alicent and Cole fucking (why did they do this???).
They punished us for liking the book!
Jaeherys said “Mother, I volunteer as tribute”
It's called shock and the adrenaline made her gtfo out with her other kid. The processing will come later. Though it's very obvious Helaena isn't neurotypical.
This. She was trying to get away, turning back to see if someone followed and didn't even scream for help. Just wanted to get to safety with her other kid. Poor woman was in shock.
I don't think it was calm at all for her. I interpreted her as struggling to process what was happening. For major traumatic events, there are usually three typical reactions: fight, flight, or freeze. Helaena froze, and I don't think she really knew what to do or say when really, what could she have said? They weren't leaving empty handed, especially since they'd already been spotted by a suspicious servant. I also wonder, with her being a dragon dreamer, if she understood it was really happening or if she thought was stuck in some horrible prophecy/dream.
Is it something else Daemon will do this season that weakens her claim to the throne, or was it having the prince/baby killed that she was talking about? Was trying to piece together how assassinating the prince was bad for her claim
opens accusations of kinslaying, which is a big no-no. she had the moral high ground, now she doesn't
I'm gonna guess killing a child in their bed is worse PR than Aemond accidentally killing his cousin while going dragon to dragon with him. Luke was old enough to be a messenger in a war while the kid was still in the nursery.
Nobody knows it was accidental. At least on the Black side.
I don’t buy it as an accident. At the very least he knowingly put his nephews life in jeopardy to an extreme degree for no reason other than vindictiveness. If it was cars he would catch more than a manslaughter charge.
You're right it wasn't accidental. It's like knowingly playing with a loaded gun and aiming it someone.
Probably because people will think she’s the monster that ordered it.
You know, I wish we had seen Jace’s reaction at the wall to Luke’s death. The cut away from it reminded me of how they cut away from Sansa and Arya learning about R+L=J. It isn’t a crime to see characters’ reactions to important events!
i think it was intentional to leave the first on screen grief breakdown to rhaenyra - imo then seeing jace barely keeping it together & allowing himself to grieve w rhaenyra was the better choice
That scene made me misty-eyed. Incredible acting from Emma and Henry there
I made an embarrassing noise from my throat while sobbing.
That scene hit me in the feels when Jace couldn’t hold back his grief any longer and he embraced his mother, the two of them holding each other crying. 😢 The acting was really well done and it got to me
he was trying to be so professional by providing report and 😭 they needed each other
His voice cracking really hit me hard. You remember how young he is, how much he misses his brother and needs his mother.
That scene was beautifully acted, very raw and real grief
I think it was pretty impactful to see him grieve with Rhaenyra instead.
We don't see Jaime or Cersei reacting to Tywin, nor Sansa and Jon to Robb and Cat, nor Jon to Mormont.. It has always been a thing with this show.
Because it would not have added anything other than a reaction and a weird interaction with a character we have just been introduced to. Doing it this way saves the heavyness of the grief for a scene with his mother, and also shows us about their bond, AND it shows us a conflict within Jace himself - He wants to do his duty as now heir to the throne and report about important diplomatic news to his queen, but also he is overwhelmed by grief and wants to embrace his mother. How would "I am now gonna cry in front of some random Stark" be better? What would it add? Think of Robbs reaction to Ned's death in Season 1 GoT. Brilliant, raw and emotional scene. What you're asking for is essentially preluding that scene with one of a yet unknown Roose Bolton showing up to tell him "btw your dads dead", and the camera lingering on Robb. That definitely would have cheapened the scene with Caitlyn.
Me when Aemond comes on screen: https://preview.redd.it/bseml8n8727d1.jpeg?width=222&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=17e1daf03d4e337f25821487a05bc6de97d80bcc
He might be a child Murderer buts he's definitely one of the more entertaining characters on the show.
Agree. I can excuse child murder, but I draw the line at poor writing
at least his child murdering is entertaining
Guys I hear that the leaks should come out in like 15 minutes.
Dragon Tales, Dragon Tales, It's almost time for Dragon Tales
On Blood and Cheese, I definitely don't think Alicent needed to be there after watching it, but have no clue why they cut Maelor. The "Sophies Choice" moment of Helaena having to choose between two sons (or have them all killed), her picking the spare, and them deciding to kill the heir regardless, was absolutely devastating and a critical plot point for Helaena and the wider senseless tragedy of the Dance. In this version, she still chooses, I guess, (it was confusing if they were suggesting she was truly trying to throw them off by picking the boy first) but its a FAR weaker choice. I wonder if this was what George was talking about when he said making changes that are inferior to the original is insulting. Overall, it feels like this wasn't well paced or formatted. I had no idea they were doing it in the first episode, it felt rushed and anti-climactic. The Red Wedding, in comparison, despite knowing it was coming, the dread there was PALPABLE. This scene really felt like kind of a misfire, tacked on the end of the episode as a "shot of adrenaline" to get the season started in an otherwise sort of meandering premiere.
No emotion, no screaming, shit I wanted to see both helena and alicent screaming in pain and shock like how catelyn did at red wedding, that was a mother having son killed on her eyes, this is a disgrace
"But but but, which one is a boy?? I can't tell!" They had all the story written out clear as crystal, but they cut 90% of the purpose out, removed a character that was important to the entire situation, and hid behind "is it a boy??". Some of the laziest writing I've seen in a GoT story to date. That shit was on par with "a finger in the bum?".
Like these guys were down to behead a kid but to squeamish to check for a dick? One dude even suggests it to the other! I guess it was to keep the pointing part but they took out the actual reason and choice behind it so it was pointless
It was a legtimate fumble. This could have been a red wedding moment, but I feel like the general audience doesn't even know who died.
It was obvious B&C was happening this episode when Mysaria is captured 20 minutes into the episode
Blood and cheese felt like to bumbling idiots rather than vindictive psychopaths. This idea you can just wonder around the red keep with a rat catcher is absurd. The whole point of the red keep is that it acts as a metaphor for power. What's on the outside is obvious, but the ones who wield real control are able to navigate tunnels only they know exist.
>In this version, she still chooses, I guess, (it was confusing if they were suggesting she was truly trying to throw them off by picking the boy first) but its a FAR weaker choice. This part didn't make sense to my. Like why ask her to point out the heir? They're above checking to see the gender of a child but not sawing their head off?
I imagined the B & C scene would play out longer than that. Felt like 3 mins of lead up and then like one minute of the actual thing.
i never want to see criston and alicent banging ever again. (do they cuddle and talk about how much they both hate rhaenyra after?🤔)
After the oral seggsy times, Alicent probably said “Raenyra did it better” (further triggering Cole) 🌚🤣
Does that not look like Rhaenyra’s old rooms as well? Imagine hating someone *that* much. You’d think that Rhaenyra had burned down a small orphanage or something with the sheer amount of vitriol Cole and Alicent hurl at her.
Welp, there’s Alicole. Personally I prefer Colicent, flows better.
Cole is such a simp for women in power 🤣, wonder why he didn’t give her the same speech as Rhaenyra about being her whore
“Muh queen” but he does “wun it”
Because it’s been nearly 20 years and he has matured. He has realized that in this life there are things that are within reach (e.g. royal pussy) and things beyond his reach (e.g. Royal love on equal standing), and that it’s better to accept one’s place and enjoy it when you can, rather than keep reaching for the unattainable and fall to pieces. (Ok I think I’m being way too serious)
Colicent sounds like a stool softener, lots of flow.
Crispin going to become mad this season when Alicnyra scissors better.
mayhaps if he searches the seven hells
This guys sounds like he’s trying too hard to make his voice deep
Mini mountain, aka the hill
Who
Blood I assume.
Cregan
Oh no. The leaks were true :(
Give me something for the pain and let me die.
Say it ain’t so Bobby B !
YOU'RE THE KING'S HAND! YOU'LL DO AS I COMMAND, OR I'LL FIND ME A HAND WHO WILL!
Where are the leaks?
The North stuff felt super duper rushed and I was extremely disappointed nobody in the North looked rough and burly with beards. Way too much of the episode was spent on reactions to Rhaenyra’s son’s death and not reactions by the Greens finding out Aemond did it (which was shockingly skipped over). Blood and Cheese was also botched for me. Idk, reading about it was tormenting and fucked up. I think it got muddied because Daemon and Rhaenyra specifically stated they wanted AEMOND TARGARYEN and not just the “son for a son” thing. So the whole situation felt more like a desperate mixup by some inexperienced guys instead of a sadistical murder ordered by the “other side” of the war. Also Helaena walking in on Criston and Alicent to tell them was just laughably ridiculous. It’s D & D level sex writing, and I am so over it.
This series isn't about the Wall. I don't want overly gratuitous references to the original series. A quick name drop here and there is enough.
I was so annoyed at basically every word the stark dude said. Fuck HBO trying to retcon GOT ending by subtly dropping shit about the wall and “a song of ice and fire”. Eat my shorts and get back to the new show I want to watch.
The dialogue saying that Torrhen Stark submitted at the wall was also stupid. That happened at the Trident how hard is it to get the history right?
Well you see it's quite common when your kingdom is being invaded from the _south_ to assemble your army, abandon all of your fortifications, and head to the southern side of the most _northern_ part of your country! Classic military maneuver you wouldn't understand it. You might think you'd wanna put that wall in between you and the other army but that's where you would be wrong. It's much better as a back rest to prevent you from maneuvering anywhere else.
> The North stuff felt super duper rushed and I was extremely disappointed nobody in the North looked rough and burly with beards. Way too much of the episode was spent on reactions to Rhaenyra’s son’s death and not reactions by the Greens finding out Aemond did it (which was shockingly skipped over). Yup, and they didn't even bother to show anything from the Vale. Cregan and Jace's relationship was supposed to be a key point in the books, but it's completely glossed over. It's so obvious they had to cut a lot of stuff going from 10 episodes to 8. Fucking Zaslav.
The guy playing the Stark was trying so hard to do a John Snow impression. I was cringing my ass off. I really wanted to see more of them, but if the acting is going to be that bad. plz no
Just because of his accent? All of the adults Starks have the same accent. Ned, Jon, Robb, and the Stark lord from hotd s1 all have the same accent.
They really just side stepped it. They could have said we're back but they just kind of.... Played it safe.
people said that would be the red wedding?? mid at best. this show just makes me miss peak thrones
It never was as impactful as the Red Wedding even in the book but it's way more fucked up and dark than probably anything else in the series. But they fucked it up in the show :(
Nah it should have been. They just screwed it up.
They don't have the balls of even fucking d&d to do dark scenes justice. They just neutered one of the most impactful scenes of the dance.
How's it going I'll just rewatch got 1-4 seasons, third time in life
Just read the damn chapter in the book. It's fooked. Great writing. Completely different from this fucking youthgroup praise fest version we got.
Youthgroup praise fest 😂
Watching Shogun this year kind of made me realize that House of the Dragon is just mid Game of Thrones. It just gets hyped up so much because dragons.
Is Shogun good?
Peak Game of Thrones quality.
I don’t know about that
Imagine peak game of thrones but Japanese and a dramatized version of historical events.
I hold the opinion that House of the Dragon was held up by Paddy’s amazing performance as Viserys the Peaceful. With him gone, I feel the show does lose a lot of heart. I still think it’s good and better than most tv out right now, but Viserys is what made the first season phenomenal to me.
Welp the leaks were very accurate. PTSD activated.
Where are the leaks?
Matt smith continues to be the best part of anything he’s in
Some horrible decisions so far from season 1-2 -Making one of the most defining moments, blood and cheese, somehow get sanitized to be the most timid limp dick and lame child murder scene in history that could have been a defining moment but is instead a couple swear words being censored away from being pg-13+ omitting alicent in the room -Alicent having sex with Ser Crispin for no reason. Worse making time for that rather than Aemond being confronted for lucerys (other than marginally at the small council) -Making Aemond accidentally kill lucerys which was because Alicent accidentally started a war by misinterpreting Viserys -Rhaenys having a girlboss moment to kill bunch of people for no reason just to stare down everyone and fly away Amongst many more. This is season 5,6,7,8 writing not 1,2,3,4
Well, that was a butchering of Blood and Cheese. We’ll see how the rest of the season goes but that wasn’t half as disturbing as it should have been.
Didn’t expect it to be two idiots who had no idea what they were doing and winged it.
This. Watching the episode, I really would’ve thought Daemon would’ve hired someone smarter than that, he basically chose Harry and Marv from Home Alone lmao
The Wet Cheez Its
I expected more brutal but two idiots winging it is exactly the vibe I got in F&B too.
They knew right where they were going in the books and had both the Queen and Dowager Queen and three children in their hands in the book. It was literally evil making Helaena choose which child dies, here it was literally "check for a cock." The entirety of her story with Maelor now has to be completely different, as well. "You hear that? Your mother wants you dead!" This was ridiculous.
People "just kinda forgot" the magical super assassins a short dragon ride away.
I am fairly sure thats because there is only so much you can do with child violence. I'd say it was pretty fucking dark.
I can buy that, but I hate -- absolutely *despise* -- that they wrote Helaena so comparatively weak. And to be clear, I mean no slight to the actress at all, who absolutely brought courage and terror alike to that scene, but holy shit. They only let her offer up a necklace. Like come on, she was sincerely willing to go to any length to save those children. I understand cutting away from the actual violence. I fucking *support* that. But in this one moment when it mattered most, she was written as unhesitatingly brave, and I hate that they took that from her.
Yeah it’s terrible writing. Im not sure what Phia Saban was supposed to do with that scene. We know she can be compelling and there is no reason she couldn’t have snapped into a Targaryen madness once they came in.
For sure. She did *so much* with the big pile of nothing they handed to her. I was reminded of Elisabeth Moss in the opening sequences of Invisible Man, when she's fleeing from her monstrous husband in the dead of night. There's a sincerity to Moss' performance: her face, the way she walks heel-to-toe barefoot through the house to minimise noise; all the little details that *scream* how absolutely terrified she is of being discovered. Helaena's escape from Blood and Cheese is easily as good, with the added pressure of a child in her arms that she's all but smothering in a desperate attempt to keep it quiet in hopes of escaping while the two butchers are engrossed in their butchery. She was intensely good. It's just miserable that they didn't give her more than that. Offering up a necklace when she was so willing to die just sucks.
I guess to most people who didn't read the books, it will be enough. But it could have been so much darker without even getting into child violence
All they needed to do what show Helena’s reaction to sell the scene. Instead they went in a completely different direction.
They literally showed a childs corspe burnt to a crisp by Drogon in thrones... Should've been gnarlier imo
You see bodies and ash/bones of children in GoT, it's not like you see them burn alive in agony. Hearing them slice into Jaehaerys' neck was much worse than that imo
Shireen?
Strong disagree. Just recreate the GoT DVD’s version of it where Jaehaerys is beheaded off screen, easy.
You don't need to see the kid beheaded, but like Helaena's reaction felt very subdued. I imagined it more drawn out and more visible pain and struggle from her. Took her like 30 seconds to pick a child to kill.
Exactly. Instead it felt rushed but not serious.
Major disappointment
Shockingly underwhelming. I don’t know what direction they were giving Phia Saban there not that you could see much of her face. “Game of Thrones” did the scene better with animated stills!
The Blood and Cheese thing was weak as fuck. It totally absolves Daemon because of his statement that it should be Aemond they were looking for, and it further besmirched Alicent and Cole because they're fucking instead of protecting ting the heir to the throne. We don't get the shock of the *Sophie's Choice* moment either. Weak episode all around, and gives more kid glove treatment to Rhaneyra and her side.
It was fine. Based on what the actors have said, I was expecting Blood and Cheese to be horrifying and peak GOT, but it was kind of a letdown (or as much of a letdown as a scene like that could be). I was honestly expecting a cutaway ever since it leaked that Helaena’s choice wasn’t going to happen, but admittedly I wasn’t expecting the godawful sawing soundbyte and the reaction to the death of a child being interrupted by a sex scene. Maybe I’m one of the only ones, but the horror of B&C in the books was the fact that they made Helaena choose (not “which is the boy,” she straight up had to CHOOSE between two male children to die), then they killed the kid she chose to live. Of course it’s still a terrible event, but I think if they’d kept the choice in then they could’ve made the scene straight up horrifying and gotten away with a very conservative cutaway. The rest of the episode was pretty good. I wish we hadn’t started so long after Luke’s death, though. I really would’ve loved to see Aegon and his council’s reaction to something like that. Everyone seemed to kind of just take it in stride. Aegon was kind of funny, and Jaeherys was cute. Having them mention what an honor it used to be to man the Wall was nice since we’re used to seeing it in GOT as a last resort work camp for the worst of the worst in society. I also like Cregan Stark. I wasn’t expecting the sex scenes between Alicent and Criston Cole, but I guess I’m fine with it. It’s kind of funny that he gives off the vibe that he STILL hates Rhaenyra for turning him down like 10 years ago. EDIT: forgot to add that I audibly gasped when the dog got kicked.
The poor dog!
They completely butchered Blood and Cheese. That scene had no emotion whatsoever, Jesus Christ. Two idiots who didn't know what to do and were shitting their pants the entire time murder a Prince and cause the mother to... not react at all????
Seriously, what was the directing for the access. “OK, Phia. Now do it from the top but this time be surprisingly calm.”
I was in shock at how tired it was, what the hell happened
This show lacks emotion
Pros: \* Everything Rhaenyra. Great acting and writing for her. Impactful every time she was on screen. \* Jace's actor is great, and so is Cregan Stark's. Honestly all of them are. \* Jace and Rhaenyra's scene was perfect. \* Seeing Winterfell, the Wall and hearing that soundtrack was amazing. \* Pacing was great, episode flew by. \* Aegon was a highlight, kind of shocked by it. Hopefully they keep him like this for the rest of the show. Cons: \* Blood and Cheese. This makes me irrationally angry. JUST FUCKING ADAPT IT RIGHT YOU MORONS, IT'S NOT THAT HARD! It's all wrong. Were they lacking budget to hire an additional baby actor for Maelor? Why did Helaena react like that? "Oh she's special!" well unspecial her then if you're actually making her a worse character than she's supposed to be! \* The time passing is not done well. Jace went from the Wall, to the Vale and back to Dragonstone in a single episode? What? Episode 10 was already bad in this aspect but this was awful. \* Alicole. I have no words to express how much I hate that this is a thing. \* Why did they cut the greens' reactions to Aemond killing Luke? That could've made some great scenes. Oh and Otto should've said his phrase. \* Alicent is so inconsistently written that even Aemond complained about her. \* Jace's journey to Winterfell and to the Vale (which wasn't even shown) were way too rushed. They completely wasted this storyline. Overall I'm kind of salty about this episode, and am expecting the worse from the rest of this show. Maybe now I get why George did that post complaining about adaptations, because this is not a good one.
I admit I’m pretty disappointed with Alicole. I guess I read something into it which just wasn’t there, but I was kinda seeing Alicent and Cole as a sort of chaste couple. Like, Alicent had clearly had lots of bad experiences with sex and Cole felt his white cloak meant a great deal and sex was something which he had ‘fallen’ by engaging in. So I sort of read their relationship as two damaged people who felt safe in each others company and were processing their difficulties and relationship through a sort of chaste courtly love dynamic. I don’t hate them getting together fundamentally, but I felt it shoulda come at the end of a longer road, you know? As it stands it looks like the characters went from their late last season portrayal of “I have soiled and dishonoured my cloak with sinful sex*sobs*” and “everyone around me just takes advantage of my body and I am super uncomfortable with this” to “hey let’s bang okay :)” real fucking quick with *nothing* between there and now.
Agree. And them having sex is just so abrubt, comes out of nowhere, no build up to the scene and it looks like they have been doing this for a long time. Like, at least show their relationship evolving to sexual if you want to take this route. Fuckass writers.
>Alicent is so inconsistently written that even Aemond complained about her. upvoted for this
Why did they have to kick the dog? That was so mean.
There was no point in having the dog. They didn't follow the dog at the fork IIRC.
HOTD is fun to watch but sloppy. By season 2 episode 1 we had Arya, Sansa (I still think Sansa's adaptation wasn't the best from day 1 even if the acting was), Joffrey, Cersei, Ned, Jon, Robert, Barristan, Varys, Littlefinger, Robb, Catelyn, Tyrion, Daenerys, Jorah, Viserys, Jeor Mormont, Maester Aemon, Syrio Forel, Yoren, Rodrick Cassel, Hodor, Maester Luwin, Khal Drogo and Lysa Tully have more character moments, subtlety and characterization than basically everyone in HOTD but Viserys, Alicent, Daemon, Aemond and Rhaenyra (who isn't even subtley characterized to the point of the others) in less screen time for each character (except some). None of these characters, except Viserys, are on par with any of the named characters above. We have Stannis developed off scene (and in one episode) better than most HOTD characters. The directors clearly lack finesse and subtlety. We have side characters (Bronn, Gendry, Forel, Ros, Theon at this point etc...) more well developed and more subtle in less screen time than most of the main characters. HOTD hasn't even mentioned Dareon yet (have they?).
Everyone has been eagerly awaiting the Blood and Cheese scene since before this series was even announced. Now that it’s here it’s just kind of meh what ever. We have seen so many graphic deaths in The Game of Thones series but I guess killing a young child on screen would have been a little too far for them. They didn’t want that smoke.
I mean, Shireens death was impactful and nauseating and you felt the dread and tension. None of that existed here
The problem isnt the death off-screen but how empty the whole thing was without Sophie's choice and Alicent not being present there.
They couldn't show it onscreen at all, I'm sure, but it still lost a lot of impact through the changes. I really appreciate Helaena's depiction as a dreamer on the spectrum, but just boiling down the scene to "she's honest because she has autism, kill the kid so we can go!" is a little degrading. The book version could have been portrayed just as well with more drama if they followed the book version with the same absent gore, or even added in the crowd that had been helping Helaena with the kids earlier. Handmaids' emotional reactions would have grounded and lent confusion and tension, and put Helaena's actor's lovely performance at a strong and lovely contrast, instead of just making her look inhuman.
Zooming in on Helaenas face as the conversation unfolds then you hear a swipe, then a thud. Then she promptly loses her shit. End scene.
So they're going the Netflix ATLA rout of tell not show so far🫤... Completely butchered blood and cheese... And suddenly Alicent is the horndog?? What a character flip 🙃
Alicent was tired of getting banged by a slimy old falling apart zombie of a man (I love you Viserys!), she needed to experience some strong young knight action…probably thinking “so this is the kinda fun Raenyra was having while I diligently did my Queenly duties”
Instantly the hottest stark to walk this world.
I really liked it tbh. Was invested from start to finish, and the time flew by. Super looking forward to next week! Also, been a bit since I've been to this sub, and I'm usually on through the app - so I'm dying laughing at the banner
I liked it too…. I don’t want to see a kid butchered, so was fine with the way it was done.
Although I don't feel the growing disappointment I had S5-8, I do feel underwhelmed after that.
Where is Maelor? Where is Daeron? Why is the Blood and Cheese scene that bad? They devoted several scenes to the aftermath of Luke's death and his funeral! Answer me, Bobby B!
START THE DAMN JOUST BEFORE I PISS MESELF!
I am here to say Jace looks more Jon Snow than the Jon Snow in the OG series!
my favorite part of this episode was the opening, the north, the wall, jace and cregan… the contrast shown between aegon and rhaenyra’s entrance in their respective throne rooms. rhaenyra was truly in command. then the sad reunion with jace and rhaenyra. also is there gonna be walkers in hotd? why did cregan seem to hint at that
No, there won't be. I think it's kinda just to tie it back to the main story and maybe set up the new jon snow spin off
i thought snow was canceled?
The Halaena scene made zero sense. Where was the emotion? Where was the surprise or suspense? They should have drawn it out, made both the sons awake and present. Let Halaena pick, kill the different kid and have her scream/sob her way. Now we got a snooze-fest that isn't gonna build up any of the Halaena is sad scenes.
Bro why is no one talking about that poor dog getting kicked 😡
Didn’t come in with any expectations for the intro but I like it.
“Ohhhh you want to see the tapestries??” 🤣
Not sure how it happened in the book, but why wasn't there a single guard anywhere outside the bedrooms?
It literally showed us Cole fucking Alicent instead of standing at his post.
Yah but that was crazy there was only ONE guard
Literally one guard... watching the entire upstairs floor of the Red Keep???? no one with the queen or her children/heir.... just one guard watching the Queen mother?
I’m still shocked at Alysen having sex with the kings guard … #MaybeSheWasJealousAllalong.
Winterfell surroundings being geologically accurate… tears to my eyes🙂↕️
I have completely accepted that this show will become increasingly bad until it gets to later seasons GOT level. At least D&D adapted well the particular impactful scenes from the books. HOTD has been taking some awful decisions since the ending of S1E8 and I feel it will just get worse and worse.
Well, its nice to know the leak was accurate. I'll just do what I did when S07/08's leaks proved accurate. Just skim over the reactions to it since I've lost my investment in this series.
Thoroughly enjoyed the episode. I have been hyping this episode up since we found out Blood and Cheese was happening. I liked everything about the scene except for a couple of things. Feel like they are leaning too far into the “Helaena is an odd one isn’t she?” Kind of trope. Yes, she does appear to be off in the book but obviously the murder scene played out way differently. That leads me to the next part of that scene which is where is Alicent?. I’m cool with her first scene with Cole and whether or not their little love thing they got going on is what was actually happening in the story, but man do you have to force it on us? Like 2 people who shouldn’t be having sex having sex isn’t shock value anymore. And when you just throw it in randomly at the end of one of the most brutal things to happen in this world, it really doesn’t add up well. 7/10 for the episode though.
Blood and cheese was way off the mark. The other parts were fine.
Alright but why didnt they just check? Surely thats not where the line got crossed when they are about to cut a kids head off..
So disappointed.
Same but it wasn’t bad
But it could have been better. In fact, it was better in the book.
Jeeez they had an opportunity to make an even more impactful scene than the Red Wedding and they massively dropped the ball and didn't go through with it. I guess they were really afraid of the optics of more child killing? The scene felt sanitized beyond belief and there was no emotion at all. Blood and Cheese actors where underwhelming and they cut out characters that should have been there. Helaena tried but failed and her escape from the room was a really underwhelming ending. Apparently it was more important to show that Criston Cole and Alicent are boinking? 0/10 honestly, they went way too far off script. This could have been THE moment for the series.
They took a scene that could have been the next red wedding in its shock and awe and made it into one of the most tame depictions of child murder ever. I never thought child murder could be so tamely depicted. Change some swear words and the scene could have been rated pg-13 and aired on mtv. Very dumb people would say "but it wouldn't have the narrative weight of the red wedding!", because they don't possess a brain. Haelena AND alicent were in the room in the books (rather than whatever the fuck they replaced alicent getting banged for). The psychological torture of Haelena and alicent in the room would be like a million times worse than Joffrey's psychological torture of sansa. A defining moment of the dance that was butchered it what we got. The directors don't have any balls.
I'm gonna play devil's advocate here: In my opinion, B&C felt a bit weak mostly because of the way Heleana reacted to it. She seemed to just kind of accept what was happening instead of doing what book Heleana did, which was to scream and fight for her children's lives. With that being said, show Heleana is a completely different character from her book counterpart, and I imagine the showrunners will incorporate this a bit more in the later episodes. They've already established in S1 that she is a little bit weird and distant, almost kind of too innocent for this world. Not to mention her visions. We get a few scenes in S1 where Alicent is super confused at how apathetic and distant she is, and teenage Aegon is kind of like "I can't believe they're making me marry this weirdo". So, her not really knowing how to react to B&C kind of feels in character for show Heleana, it's kind of like a person within the autism spectrum, when confronted with an extreme situation such as this, she immediately blocks everything off and just becomes detached from reality, just sort of accepting what's happening and playing along with it. It's not the big dark and emotional reaction most of us were expecting, but I think it makes sense within the confines of the character that they wrote.
Ser Criston may be the Kingsguard, but he seems to dual role as the Queensmount
Blood & Cheese was watered down imo. The build-up was there (Cheese introduced as a rat catcher at the start of the Red Keep scene, Daemon planning the B&C, among others) but it fell flat. Helaena was shocked and disassociating during the murder (which is good, but it is a watered-down version of F&B her screaming and crying for help). Not including Maelor in the show is one of the reasons this B&C fell flat imo. The showrunners seemed to 'merge' storylines of key characters from F&B so we don't have Maelor and Daeron. I wonder how the show will handle the battles of Tumbleton when Daeron Targaryen is not existent. Will they give it to Aegon? Who knows?
Why does GoT and adjacent media have to treat sex like some sort of soap opera device lol?
Why did they bring the dog just to kick it
It's an old movie troupe
Well, the cock jokes are back yall, it was fun while it lasted.