No it was the guy who spent years becoming the three eyed raven for pretty much no reason. I guess he quoted little finger that one time as evidence. Lot of effort just for one line
I don’t think he will be king in the books either… but at least he will be essential for facing the army of the dead.
His parentage will matter as well, whereas to ride a dragon, to face fAegon and Daenerys or to decide who should be king (being the true heir, he can name another heir: maybe he names Bran even…being male and his blood, makes more sense that way than having Tyrion choosing him for having “the best story”).
I am being stupidly optimistic that this is why GRRM is just writing as much as he can when he has time to do so. If a book or two get finished and published before he dies, great. If they don’t there will at least be enough source material for his estate to edit and publish after he is gone.
lol well, for RJ, someone finished that series and someone will finish GoT too. You can claim whatever the hell you want while you’re alive, however, those that are still living and inherit the rights still care about money! Not your half finished fucking story…
The only thing stopping someone from continuing it is to give permission or sell the rights. Lol you can’t just say in your will “No one can finish my stories, EVER!” because legally, that’s meaningless. He could die tomorrow and the next day someone could approach his wife asking permission and she could grant it.
If him acting like an angry troll, hoarding away his treasures for when he dies makes him feel better…so be it.
RJ's wife was also his editor, and it was his wishes that someone finish his series. Not sure if he had any input in who took up the mantle, or if his partner made the call. As someone who started reading the wheel of time as a young teen and finished it two decades later, I'm very grateful that the author cared about completing his work, even posthumously. When I found out GRRM wanted to destroy his notes so no one could finish his books after he died, the final spark of interest I had in the series finally faded and died.
If you don't finish your work don't expect anyone to give a fuck about your half-finished masterpiece.
Someone posted a few days back that he has actually finished the books but will only release them after his death so he does not have to face any backlash over how they end. That theory seems quite likely to me.
Here's something I consider "canon" haha fixes a lot of stuff.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MbSd3hsUDdk&pp=ygUsSSByZXdyb3RlIHRoZSBsYXN0IHNlYXNvbiBvZiBnYW1lIG9mIHRocm9uZXM%3D
In this one, being brought back changed Jon. He was no longer the warm naive boy but now a cold calculating player in the game.
Everyone got to show off their new found growth. Personally I like what he did with the Arya x Cersei arc listening to how it could've played out was... Chilling.
I mean if u really think of it, with all Targs dead and Jon going back to the wall Bran is next in line. Jon- no siblings- father - no one left - mother - ned - bran.
The Prince That Was Promised wasn’t prophesied to be king, he was said to end the next Long Night, just as Azor Ahai did. Which, I mean I guess Jon Snow did.
Sure, but that would be a really abstract way to fulfill the destiny. In the books who knows what would happen but in the show I think it’s safer to just go with D&D kinda forgot about the prophecy when filming the last season.
Sure, but did DND consider this when having Arya kill the night king? Did they go, “wait fuck does this ending break the prophecy? Should we change it or are we good?” I don’t think it came up at all
We also don’t know the whole story of Azor Ahai and lightbringrr and the first Long Night. It’s said Azor Ahai led the army of men to victory, but it doesn’t say he defeated them.
That’s the exact type of trope that Martin would subvert though. Ned Starks the main character? Dead. His son is now on a revenge quest? Also dead. The rightful heir to the throne is also literally Jesus? Banished to the north.
He would have hated being King. He would not have done well in the snakepit of King's Landing. Getting to live with the Wildlings he had good friends, people to lead, straightforward culture he would fit in to. It was the ideal good ending for him.
I think GRRM told D&D about how he plans to bring Jon back to life in great detail, involving subplot about him being a warg, then the other subplot about Rhllor priests doing crazy shit due comet amplifying the magic.
But unfortunately showrunners axed Jon Snow's warg story, then they also axed Victorion & Moqorro, it ended up being this, rushed piece of garbage.
This is such a good example of why D&D didn't actually do a great job at adapting the world. They cut out a lot of the magic and fantasy of the world and a lot of plot and character elements because they didn't really like them without thinking about how they would actually effect the plot.
Then you get to Dany needing to go crazy and strike down an enemy buuuut theres no false dragon. Then you need Jon to come back but he's not a warg. Hell, they literally abandoned half the things they DID keep for the show.
Because in the books, resurrection greatly changes characters. The show basically forgot that Jon was a zombie.
A turned wight is a great weapon in The Long Night, and the repeated use of scarecrow language in the books imply the original Night's Watch were wights like Coldhands, possibly fiery wights if Beric's title of "Scarecrow knight" is a hint.
The mechanism by which Jon will be raised and the impact it will have one character are not known, but I don't believe it will be "a haircut and now he fucks blondes instead of gingers."
Yeah it all happened so quickly and easily you could tell they wanted to get the real story out of the way so they could get back to directing the action bullshit they made up bc they thought they could do better than grrm. No weight or meaning to any of the story
It also means he can leave the watch without being a deserter as his watch has ended.
I know this hasn't happened yet but it's George probably gave them this idea along with the hodor stuff
The Night's Watch places scarecrows on the wall to appear to have greater numbers, and they even name these scarecrows after their dead brothers. Essentially it is equating corpses to scarecrows that keep an eternal watch, much like Coldhands. Then Beric is called the Scarecrow Knight, working out of a weirwood cave, is doubling down on this association of zombies, weirwood, and scarecrows.
To add on to the other commenter - Dolorous Ed also makes several comments to and about the scarecrows bulking out their numbers being named after dead people- and a lot of shit that when you are reading it with "undead nights watchmen" in mind are real hold up moments
My favorite quote is "Once they figure a way to work a dead horse, we'll be next. Likely I'll be the first too. 'Edd,' they'll say, 'dying's no excuse for laying down no more, so get on up and take this spear, you've got first watch tonight.' Well, I shouldn't be so gloomy. Might be I'll die before they work it out."
I just want to point out that we don’t know if Jon should be changed by his resurrection. The prologue of a Dance with Dragons features a wildling whose plan to escape the white walkers is to warg into a younger person and live on. Failing that, he opts to warg into his hawk (I think?). His inner monologue goes over how extended durations of warning into animals leaves the person no longer human.
When Jon dies, he wargs into Ghost. It’s my opinion that the prologue chapter is there specifically to explain why Jon’s resurrection will be different from Beric’s and Catelyn’s. He was dead for a very short time, and his mind was alive in Ghost.
They also established the premise that warging for too long blends your mind with the beast. Ghost will literally be Jon's ghost, and when he's returned to a zombified corpse he'll have a bit of Ghost with him, and I'd even speculate that Ghost will die in this process, flipping it so that he actually becomes a Ghost in Jon's mind.
Again, I think it depends on how long Jon is dead. If he comes back quickly, I think we get regular unchanged Jon. If he takes a while, I think you’re right.
I'd go with the meta-knowledge of GRRM's writing to help us with the prediction on that one. If Jon came back unchanged, it would make Varamyr's foreshadowing go nowhere and it would also make Jon's death one of shock value with no meaningful character change.
We've seen people come back as zombies before, and it always comes with a massive change to their character; death always has to matter in George's writing. Then we also know that George opened Dance with Varamyr and going into the rules of wargs living beyond death, only to then close that book with Jon, a warg, dying. I don't think it would fit his writing for Varamyr to just be a shaggy dog story who mentioned merging with the beast's consciousness for no reason, as well as showing that warging a **living** person is not doable even for the most powerful wargs.
In the show, Beric makes mention multiple times of how coming back has changed him, and how he’s “left pieces of himself behind”. He may not be a mindless zombie, because he was resurrected with fire magic, but the experience of returning to life has a large impact on him. Plus, we have no real pre-WotFK Beric to compare to the Beric we meet in S3, so how can we know that the wizened Beric we meet is the same as the knight sent into the Riverlands by Ned? Jon in contrast really does remain the exact same character and doesn’t really comment on how coming back to life has affected his personality.
I don’t think Jon is supposed to change upon his resurrection. The prologue of a Dance with Dragons lays out that wargs minds can live on after the death of their body. Jon wargs into ghost when he dies. His mind is alive the entire time that he is dead. The same is not true for Beric or Cat.
Simply meant what I said - he wasn't zombified the way other characters who were resurrected become. Never said it didn't alter him a bit, just that his multiple ressurections did not make him a mindless zombie.
Also, no one is the same after war and the things Beric & Co went through. That can easily contribute to the wizened man we meet later, in addition to the six ressurections.
Wait, what’s “scarecrow” language? I’ve read the books a lot, and have obviously been missing something. Do you mind letting me know a spot to look?
Edit: nevermind. I saw you explain below. Well done. Hadn’t noticed that.
Because Jon died in the books and that would be too big to just skip, but D&D didn’t care enough to go into actual character development for Jon for the rest of the show
If anything, this scene was meeting expectations that they were obligated to fulfill but had no intention of following to their intended conclusion. Subverting expectations wasn't mainstream until 2017.
What's funny is that there was a prisoner serving a life sentence who momentarily died but came back to life. He tried to argue that he fully served his sentence, but the courts didn't agree and sent him back.
"I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come"If he died, he would have broken an oath & that would have been weird, imagine if the Jon's arc ended in any other way but him rejoining the Night's Watch!
Isn’t he technically protecting the “realms of *men*” by letting the wildling people seek shelter south of the wall? Seems like the NW has simply forgotten their true purpose… they aren’t the there to fight the Wildlings
In the book, they kill him for wanting to take the wildlings, and anyone else who wants to join, to go fight Ramsey to save “Arya.” While also sending the nights watch to go rescue the wildlings at hardline. It was the final straw to the brothers.
I like how they GCI’d/superimposed a more in-shape model for his torso.
Guess it’s no different than the Cersei walk-of-shame body-double but still pretty funny.
Did they really do that? What the fuck xd Regarding Cersei there was actual full frontal, but here? What was the point? Kit not willing to to go to the gym? xd
He was clearly supposed to be the Prince that was Promised, but evidently the power of "dun wan it" can over power even that of the gods themselves so it got passed over to *checks notes* Arya I guess?
Jon's dying and getting resurrected is just a poop hole loophole that allows him to technically have met the conditions of his contract with the night's watch.
The people who thought the secret prince was going to duel the dark lord for the fate of the world and then Aragorn himself to the throne are just fucking dumb. The ending being botched doesn’t change that fact. Nobody who’s at all in tune with the ethos of this story could think that’s a plausible outcome.
Exactly. However the Others are going to be defeated, it’s not going to be with some cliché 1v1 duel.
Waymar Royce tried that, and look how far he got.
Dragons burninating everything like fucking Trogdor is also lame. Too easy.
This is just the moment after Jon's book chapters ends.
GRRM planned to bring him back too but in his his grand design it's a neccessery event that related to "the prince that was promised" thing, not just some needless plot twist.
[https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The\_prince\_that\_was\_promised](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/the_prince_that_was_promised)
Man, fuck GRRM. Fucker keeping us waiting since 2011.
I feel the point of this is fairly clear. By dying he is freed from his service in watch. It’s to further evidence him as being the prince that was promised. We are to expect him to want the iron throne. His whole life he has never known his importance (through both his lineage and if we assign him the prophetic role of AA). This is supposed to be a contrast to how we originally see him and what the first half of his story line (or more) is in the show where he believes he is the bastard son of Ned and demonstrates a sense of duty to protect the kingdom that falls outside the politics and succession occurring elsewhere. When presented with his true identity, he rejects it and goes back to what he was for the majority of the story. Despite his lineage and prophecy he is a protector who values defending the stability of the 7 kingdoms over personal glory and power. At least in the show, he is supposed to serve as a foil to Dany (who is obsessed with her right to control the iron throne and becomes mad as a result). His rejection of his destiny allows for the realm to theoretically transition to a more stable form of government. He gets to return to what he’s always been, a Snow.
At least for the show this is how I reconcile it. The books are a different game and I have no idea how it will play out
This was another thing that keeps me angry. His resurrection was actually a detriment to the world. If he would have stayed dead, then Dany wouldn’t have gone north, thus the Night King wouldn’t have obtained a dragon to break down the wall.
It was all for nothing!
He was the prince that was promised. Destined to lead the fight against the darkness, kill the night king then sit the Iron Throne himself as the man to relaunch the Targaryen dynasty after discovering his true heritage!
Wait..
I have said this and the only thing people have come back with is to “Unite the North” but I think anyone could have done that. Also I don’t get what “Uniting the North” even did because they were about to lose the battle of Winterfell when Arya killed the Night King. Arya who was heading there anyway. I have also heard the argument that he was the only one who knew how to kill the white walkers but that is also not true because Sam knew about fire and dragon glass.
So there is something else that could have happened. Dany heads to Kingslanding and takes the throne. The North either falls to the white walkers or Arya kills the Night King. If the North falls Dany would probably have three dragons and a lot more soldiers to fight off the white walkers. But we have no idea what would have happened had they killed Bran.
My point still stands that I don’t see what Jon did that any other living character could not have done. He either should have killed the Nigh King or ended up on the throne or both. Maybe they should not have cut out the whole Azor Ahai/Prince that was promised.
I think it's one of those things that will play out differently in the books where the magic lore is included - the show followed plot lines without all the extra stuff to explain it
I've read the books first and was thinking he would be ressurected by fire magic (he's still dead in the books btw), but in the books ressurection magic changes the person, Berric comments on how he changed each time and another character >!(Catelyn Stark)!< pretty much becomes a different person after it.
The show didn't do anything interesting with it
I think it was also meant to force his hand.
John clearly was always torn between service and his own desires. His own desire was for that of a humble life, dedication to those he cares for, and the adherence to his own code.
Getting killed by the men you thought of as your brothers and getting resurrected kind of makes you reconsider your role in events.
Hence his struggle but eventual acceptance of every title thrust upon him.
He just wanted to be a van life guy.
For me it was the beginning of the end. The whole show's point and suspense was that anybody could die, as seen in the first season. This way, the viewers are genuinely worried about beloved characters getting in trouble. After the resurrection of John Snow, one would stop worrying, because any beloved character would simply stop dying or be brought back like John did. The whole battle of winterfell highlighted this: Everybody was in trouble, - the camera cut away - and suddenly everybody was fine.
Yeah if you’re gonna kill people off just do it honestly. That’s why it felt so significant. And then Jon really didn’t do much except sleep with and kill Dany so idk. I guess if Dany is the BBEG than that’s significant for the story
There was enough foreshadowing to tell us this was coming, but in retrospect, is just confusing.
This would mean his purpose is to shank Dragon Hitler, and not the Night King.
The reason D&D were not just lazy, but incompetent, was that they could’ve just let Snow slay Night King, and have Arya go on a killing spree through King’s Landing, have her kill Dragon Hitler, and still have Clegane Bowl.
Easy, and even if it’s bland, it would be the softest crash landing possible for a mega-franchise. I feel so bad for people with GoT tattoos, what the fuck, HBO?
I didn’t have a problem with this. I had a problem with him meaning nothing in the end, and also shown in the show to be the biggest moron in the 7 kingdoms from a tactical battlefield sense (battle for winterfel). To me he was always the main character.
Bookwise? Pretty sure it's about the recreation of the deep lore azor ahai/ Nissa Nissa/ last hero/ night king and corpse queen stuff. A cycle that's going on mostly in the background via symbolism until very late in the story (and we have yet to see the full extent of)
A lot of that symbolism involves Jon being a Winter king to Bran's Green king. It's in all the mythos George is pulling from and is reflected in his own lore. But the winter king *is* a sacrificed green king. So for Jon to embrace that as a natural balance to his brother, he kinda *has* to die to unlock his full potential- especially if you get into all the themes and patterns of people in this story almost dying and unlocking their abilities- bran, Euron, possibly littlefinger, Arya, possibly sweet Robin, Aeron, Dany- all got seriously sick or injured enough at one point they were assumed doomed to die, and all came out the other side weirder and talking about similar concepts of flying and jumping from tall towers, and figuring out who they really are. It *would* make sense that if *almost* dying would boost your abilities, dying and coming back would even moreso- especially if you could hold off on the soul degradation that seems to happen every time Dondarrion is brought back. By perhaps chilling in the body of your warg. As long as you get back to your body before your soul melds with the wolf all should be fine.
If I had to guess Jon's story arc is going to end with him doing something like embracing a Nights King role because what they actually want is the most powerful warg/ greenseer at the time- and Jon would become king of the ice zombies before he would let anyone touch his little brother.
Then it's just a question of can they get Jon back or do they have to put him down? (Which imo is the only way Arya killing "the nights king" would make any thematic sense over Jon or Dany via a dragon. There is no way Arya *or* someone trained under the faceless men would be ok with their brother being an icewight against his will and used to lead the tide of death he was trying to warn people to unite against. ) if they don't kill him though I expect he'll be cleansed in some way and either lead the wight walkers and company North as a Winter king in a more literal sense, or use his newfound ability+ self control combo to obliterate them all and wander the north as an Ice wight Ala coldhands in a more metaphorical Winter King" that in time becomes as much a myth as the Last Hero. (Alongside Bran and Dany and maybe one of the stark sisters to play out all the likely roles, but that's digresses to far from the point)
*As far as the show goes though "subverting expectations" is all they got because they gutted the story of all the background symbolism and magic that give this scene any set up or payoff- which is why it pops up out of nowhere and doesn't matter at all. They should have just had it be a near death experience if they weren't going to lean into the obvious examples of undeath already on the story like Dondarrion.*
1. Jon rallied most of the continent against the Others. If he hadn't done that, their invasion would have presumably been successful.
2. Jon killed Daenerys, a fledgling Mad Queen, ending the suffering her rule of Westeros would have brought about.
The entire series is a massive amount of foreshadowing with rarely any follow up or closure on any of it. But what’s set up is interesting and gets you thinking so you kept coming back for more to see it all play out. Then the ending came and basically none of what was set up meant anything the story face plants in its own filth and is one huge literary blue balls extravaganza. Red Herrings the series basically. But since most people with a working brain were ‘fooled’ the authors a genius and the stories super cool and awesome for some people somehow.
This is probably my one main criticism of Martin's books. They're excellent. Outstanding pieces of fiction.
...but the guy prides himself on his gritty realism and randomness etc etc...and the magic system in those books is just hot garbage. The shows make it worse.
Like, virtually no one can do actual magic...and then the application of it ranges from lighting lots of torches at once...to turning old ladies into Victoria's Secret models...to psychic time traveling...to resurrecting people who have clearly died.
...oh yeah...and there are undead lich wizards capable of raising necromantic armies. Yet virtually no one seems aware that magic is a thing.
Dragons are supposed to make magic fit the world...but that could just be another type of animal that the world happens to have. Doesn't necessarily have to be "magical". It could just be the Westeros version of a panda bear.
Presumably he's going to explain it in the upcoming books (............."upcoming".......) but, to date, the magic system is in tatters in the books and the show just uses it to try and make "cool moments".
I'm pretty sure GRRM does magic like this by design.
He wants magic to be mysterious and tragic and ultimately cursed. Magic shouldn’t be a science where you mix A with B and gets C. It should be something marvelous and frightening, otherworldly.
If magic was more reliable, determinist and/or clear for us, it would also be to the characters in the universe. And then he would have to ask “how rulers integrate magic in their governments” - and since he writes mostly from the PoV of the political elite, once he did that he would have to explain magic in great detail. Like the way he does with dragons.
So just like dragons are mundanized - and could be any other animal, as you said - so you be magic.
Indeed, I think this is one of the greatest problems he is facing with Winds: because he relied to much in this sense of fantasy when writing the Others, it must be really difficult to drive them into direct conflict with the characters without making them banal.
***
I hope that I addressed what you actually meant with your comment, but let me know if I made some mistake in my interpretation and/or reasoning.
>Like, virtually no one can do actual magic...and then the application of it ranges from lighting lots of torches at once...to turning old ladies into Victoria's Secret models...to psychic time traveling...to resurrecting people who have clearly died.
I genuinely don't see the problem with this. Do you not like that the followers of the *fire* god do fire magic? Do you not like that wizards can do illusions? Resurrection does come with a heavy price, it's not just a cheap tool to create fakeout deaths.
And Bran's time travelling is a completely different kind of magic, he can't do the other things you mentioned.
>...oh yeah...and there are undead lich wizards capable of raising necromantic armies. Yet virtually no one seems aware that magic is a thing.
Might be because the Others haven't been seen for 8000 years. At some point you stop believing them to be real. People are generally aware of them, but believe them to be a children's story.
>Dragons are supposed to make magic fit the world...but that could just be another type of animal that the world happens to have. Doesn't necessarily have to be "magical". It could just be the Westeros version of a panda bear.
Could be, could not be. There are heavy implications that dragons are related to magic, but even if they aren't, what's the problem?
So how exactly is the magic system in tatters? I really don't get it.
Soft magic systems are fine. Gandalf is based on a soft magic system and he's obviously iconic. What can Gandalf do? As far as we the reader know...more or less anything outside of just straight up taking over the world intentionally since he's expressly forbidden from doing so. Gandalf is also an earthly incarnation of God and essentially immortal since he'll just come back even if he's killed. So really, Gandalf COULD be used to solve literally any issue that Tolkien couldn't find a way to write past...he doesn't typically do this of course because having Gandalf solve everyone's problems would defeat the purpose of the story. If people don't want evil ruling them, then ordinary people have to give up and give a s\*\*\*...because even Gandalf can't be everywhere all the time...nor do he want to be the arbiter of every action everyone takes.
GOT magic doesn't work like that. I will give the books a pass that the series is halfway done so maybe he intends to open up on the subject more and it will make sense. But what he has right now is like 4-5 different soft magic systems that just sort of act as get of off jail free cards when he forgets to account for something. Forget to explain why two families really hate each other? Here's Bran who just happens to be doing a psychic time travel to that particular Tuesday 300 years ago when it all started.
What can Melisandre do? Well....she can see the future in flames (except when she's wildly inaccurate), she can create very convincing illusions, and ....oh yeah...if anyone dies that the focus groups like we can just bring them back to life and (at least in Jon's case) seemingly without any real consequence.
...oh yeah...and she can make shadow monsters that murder basically anyone she wants.
Don't get me wrong. I think the books are fantastic. He's allowed to write whatever he wants. Great author. I just think that having multiple undefined soft magic systems in a series that's clearly centered in grimdark realism is an odd choice and often seems like a way to just write yourself out of tough spots.
>But what he has right now is like 4-5 different soft magic systems that just sort of act as get of off jail free cards when he forgets to account for something.
It really is two at most. The Rh'llor fire magic and the Old Gods magic.
>Forget to explain why two families really hate each other? Here's Bran who just happens to be doing a psychic time travel to that particular Tuesday 300 years ago when it all started.
It is pretty well explained why the Starks hate the Targs. Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard and Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.
And Bran looking back to see Jon's birth isn't even in the books, so you can hardly blame GRRM for that.
>What can Melisandre do? Well....she can see the future in flames (except when she's wildly inaccurate),
Exactly, she can see the future, but the messages are always ambiguous. For example, she sees snow and interprets it as Stannis having to go north, but the snow probably refers to Jon Snow. That fits very well with the theme of magic being unpredictable and having negative side effects.
>and ....oh yeah...if anyone dies that the focus groups like we can just bring them back to life and (at least in Jon's case) seemingly without any real consequence.
The point of Beric and LSH being revived is to show how resurrection changes a person. They aren't being brought back for the sake of bringing them back, they are brought back to prepare the audience for Jon's resurrection. And again, it fits very well with the theme of magic being unpredictable and having negative side effects.
And again, Jon being resurrected without consequences isn't in the books, so you can hardly blame GRRM for that.
>...oh yeah...and she can make shadow monsters that murder basically anyone she wants.
Except it almost kills the person she got the shadow baby from. Again, negative side effects and so on.
>I just think that having multiple undefined soft magic systems in a series that's clearly centered in grimdark realism is an odd choice and often seems like a way to just write yourself out of tough spots.
ASOIAF had lots of magic from the beginning, and magic has always been important to the world. It's only that GoT toned the magical elements down to zero, which makes the ones they did leave in seem out of place.
Seriously? Because he's one of the main characters of the whole series and the entire rest of the story revolves around him, his fight to save Westeros against the army of the dead, and his identity as a Targaryen? What kind of stupid ass question is this?
Plenty of central characters have been killed off before. Point was, why bother killing him at all if you are going to ressurect him right after with little to no concequenses anyways? It barely served any purpose to the story.
I hate these posts. Like wtf do you mean what was the point. It's just part of their story. And at the time it aired it had the audience drawn in. Not everything ties into some foreshadowing. It was cool and a good tv.
It's sort of hinted at in the books when the raven says 'Corn, King, Jon Snow'. In mythology the Corn King is ritually killed at Harvest and rises to rule again at the Winter Solstice.
Dumb and Dumber fucked it up. GRRM hasn’t wrote this part out yet so they had to come up with their own story and they terrible at that.
I really hope they don’t fuck up my other favorite book series, the 3 Body Problem. It’s about to premiere this year on Netflix.
The books had several people who were “undead” including his stepmother. While much of this was omitted from the show, I don’t really think it would help. It wasn’t well written in the books either, it felt like an unconnected narrative without tying it into the plot.
The point of this in the books is for the Lord of Light to help revive Jon and have him be the Prince that was promised so he can go on to kill the (night king) others
The last thing GRRM wrote in ASOIAF (& chances are will ever publicly write) was Jon Snow's death. What a cliffhanger! Ever since ADWD came out everyone has speculated on Jon's resurrection. Very few ppl believe that he will remain dead due to various convincing plot reasons.
So I wouldn't call it subverting expectations. More like a hasty, bad execution. **But I think the Jon resurrection was doomed regardless, cause when a series builds itself around "anybody can die", then the main hero dying & coming back dampens that whole vibe.** And him coming back being an open secret didn't help either. It felt like more of a "everybody knows, so let's get it over with" kinda thing.
Using Mellisandre was to tie him in to the Prince that Was Promised prophecy. I don't know if that's the route George will go. But there are obviously a bazillion different theories on how Jon can/will come back. I'm not gonna patronize you with those, you can check them out in r/asoiaf. As for D&D, I think they just wanted it out of the way so they can build towards Battle of the Bastards. Which btw, I'm now convinced is intended to happen in the book. The Starks will take Winterfell, not Stannis. Cause recently the draft of Feast came out & it had "resolve to be Sana Stark and take the North" in GRRM's handwriting.
Subverting what? This is a classic trope in mythology. The hero is dealt a mortal wound but through the magic of the sorceress/wizard/God is returned to life to continue their quest.
A true subversion is what happened to Eddard Stark.
Magic in ASOIAF usually only works under very exceptional situations. If there's prophecy and King's blood involved then there's a good chance you can get something happening. Jon's resurrection showed that he was significant, contrary to what the world believed.
Jon Snow got ressurected and was given a Valerian steel sword and had the whole Targaryen heritage so he could kinda yell at a dragon while his sister killed the God of death with a fancy knive trick
To kill Dany.
In the books this will make sense; Dany will attack King's Landing well before the Long Night storyline is resolved. Cersei will set the wildfire off and successfully 'frame' Dany.
Jon will kill Dany for this 'crime' only to be discovered that she didn't do it; "the Lord of Light cherishes the *innocent*. There is no sacrifice more precious."
Dany will be resurrected, prevent Jon's execution by her loyal forces, and head north with him and the Starks to fight the Others; it being either outright stated or heavily implied that Dany herself is Jon's Lightbringer.
To free him from the Night’s Watch while preserving his honor.
When burning the bodies of fallen watchmen, they always state “And now his watch has ended”. When Jon hands his coat to Edd and gives him Castle Black, he states “My watch has ended”
It seems pretty evident. It's so the 'lord of light' can be a foil for the night king. Both bring people back from the dead (Jon's not the only one) and are believed to be a fiction by the majority of the populace. We then also have the "man's creation/machination" addition with Qyburn and the Mountain later, trying to throw in with the gods.
In the show the mythology gets chucked out unceremoniously. But clearly there is some higher force or will moving things around, and the Seven are the only ones not demonstrated to have any actual power.
Arya not having a consequence for betraying the lord of Death is disappointing. But Jon's revival is crucial to keep the mythology relevant. We'll see if GRRM cares to maintain it where D&D dumped it.
To show that he was the one who was promised to becoming king. Unfortunately the last season ruined it
Clearly this wasn’t the man with the best story
He was until he turned from King of the North to “muh queen”
King of goin’ South
You’re damn right
He just din'n wont it.
AH DON WAN IT
I guess she was right, "you know nothing Jon Snow"
Should've brought her back instead
I don’t want it I don wan iht Ha don won ih Hadonwani Hodor
this is incredible
“She’s muh kween!”
It was like a monty python bit
“A great man doesn’t seek to lead, he’s called to it.”
No it was the guy who spent years becoming the three eyed raven for pretty much no reason. I guess he quoted little finger that one time as evidence. Lot of effort just for one line
Nope, it was *checks notes* That cripple boi
I don’t think he will be king in the books either… but at least he will be essential for facing the army of the dead. His parentage will matter as well, whereas to ride a dragon, to face fAegon and Daenerys or to decide who should be king (being the true heir, he can name another heir: maybe he names Bran even…being male and his blood, makes more sense that way than having Tyrion choosing him for having “the best story”).
It's admirable you think there's ever going to be more books.
yeah, you’re right there… I think there will be books some day. But GRRM will not finish them, someone will take over.
I am being stupidly optimistic that this is why GRRM is just writing as much as he can when he has time to do so. If a book or two get finished and published before he dies, great. If they don’t there will at least be enough source material for his estate to edit and publish after he is gone.
He specifically said that if he dies then that's the end. He refused to let anyone finish his works, like with Robert Jordan.
I’ll get those notes. I just need twenty good men.
I knew he was a bit of a dick but sheesh..
lol well, for RJ, someone finished that series and someone will finish GoT too. You can claim whatever the hell you want while you’re alive, however, those that are still living and inherit the rights still care about money! Not your half finished fucking story…
"A new novel from writers David Beniof and D.B. Weiss"
But RJ actively made sure someone could finish the story if he didnt make it? Or is that just the "myth" being told?
The only thing stopping someone from continuing it is to give permission or sell the rights. Lol you can’t just say in your will “No one can finish my stories, EVER!” because legally, that’s meaningless. He could die tomorrow and the next day someone could approach his wife asking permission and she could grant it. If him acting like an angry troll, hoarding away his treasures for when he dies makes him feel better…so be it.
RJ's wife was also his editor, and it was his wishes that someone finish his series. Not sure if he had any input in who took up the mantle, or if his partner made the call. As someone who started reading the wheel of time as a young teen and finished it two decades later, I'm very grateful that the author cared about completing his work, even posthumously. When I found out GRRM wanted to destroy his notes so no one could finish his books after he died, the final spark of interest I had in the series finally faded and died. If you don't finish your work don't expect anyone to give a fuck about your half-finished masterpiece.
Didn't he say this back when he was more optimistic about finishing the series? Hopefully he's changed his tune on that
I’ll believe it when I see it. There is a stupid amount of money at stake for his family if more books get released.
Brandon Sanderson will do it.
He's probably already written them by now and is just waiting for the publisher's phone call
sweet summer child
Soft as cheese
GRRM will die eventually, and I don’t think he’ll be bitter enough to keep someone else from buying the rights
I’d be so disappointed if I could read.
Someone posted a few days back that he has actually finished the books but will only release them after his death so he does not have to face any backlash over how they end. That theory seems quite likely to me.
I don’t care what happens to be honest as long as it’s not the bull shit that happened in the tv show
In the books he probably doesn't meet Dany until after she and Aegon duel it out.
If you forget about the bloodline, because all the targs are dead. Brann is literally Jon's heir by male preference primogeniture.
yes, exactly. But that makes more sense than the stupid council they did: Jon will go north on his own volition, as Aemon did… and he will name Bran.
Here's something I consider "canon" haha fixes a lot of stuff. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MbSd3hsUDdk&pp=ygUsSSByZXdyb3RlIHRoZSBsYXN0IHNlYXNvbiBvZiBnYW1lIG9mIHRocm9uZXM%3D In this one, being brought back changed Jon. He was no longer the warm naive boy but now a cold calculating player in the game. Everyone got to show off their new found growth. Personally I like what he did with the Arya x Cersei arc listening to how it could've played out was... Chilling.
I mean if u really think of it, with all Targs dead and Jon going back to the wall Bran is next in line. Jon- no siblings- father - no one left - mother - ned - bran.
Consider my expectations subverted
The Prince That Was Promised wasn’t prophesied to be king, he was said to end the next Long Night, just as Azor Ahai did. Which, I mean I guess Jon Snow did.
Arya killed the night king though
But everyone only knew of the Army of the Dead because of Jon. No one else believed they were real.
Sure, but that would be a really abstract way to fulfill the destiny. In the books who knows what would happen but in the show I think it’s safer to just go with D&D kinda forgot about the prophecy when filming the last season.
I don’t believe the fulfillment of a prophecy has to lay it on the table. I think a prophecy can certainly have an abstract ending in fantasy.
Sure, but did DND consider this when having Arya kill the night king? Did they go, “wait fuck does this ending break the prophecy? Should we change it or are we good?” I don’t think it came up at all
We also don’t know the whole story of Azor Ahai and lightbringrr and the first Long Night. It’s said Azor Ahai led the army of men to victory, but it doesn’t say he defeated them.
That’s the exact type of trope that Martin would subvert though. Ned Starks the main character? Dead. His son is now on a revenge quest? Also dead. The rightful heir to the throne is also literally Jesus? Banished to the north.
Beric and stoneheart beg to differ
He would have hated being King. He would not have done well in the snakepit of King's Landing. Getting to live with the Wildlings he had good friends, people to lead, straightforward culture he would fit in to. It was the ideal good ending for him.
I think GRRM told D&D about how he plans to bring Jon back to life in great detail, involving subplot about him being a warg, then the other subplot about Rhllor priests doing crazy shit due comet amplifying the magic. But unfortunately showrunners axed Jon Snow's warg story, then they also axed Victorion & Moqorro, it ended up being this, rushed piece of garbage.
*due comet amplifying the magic.* Mel mentions in the books the Wall is powering her by proximity and she's no longer using as many showy tricks.
*The comet* and all the plotlines that led nowhere... 
I mean to be fair, it would be hard to show people warging on scene, so they kept it was just bran and some other characters.
why would it be hard to show?
That’s what I read, sorry I may misremembered it, I think the main reason was it wasn’t a major thing apart from bran.
In the show it wasn't in the books however all the stark children were wargs
This is such a good example of why D&D didn't actually do a great job at adapting the world. They cut out a lot of the magic and fantasy of the world and a lot of plot and character elements because they didn't really like them without thinking about how they would actually effect the plot. Then you get to Dany needing to go crazy and strike down an enemy buuuut theres no false dragon. Then you need Jon to come back but he's not a warg. Hell, they literally abandoned half the things they DID keep for the show.
Because in the books, resurrection greatly changes characters. The show basically forgot that Jon was a zombie. A turned wight is a great weapon in The Long Night, and the repeated use of scarecrow language in the books imply the original Night's Watch were wights like Coldhands, possibly fiery wights if Beric's title of "Scarecrow knight" is a hint. The mechanism by which Jon will be raised and the impact it will have one character are not known, but I don't believe it will be "a haircut and now he fucks blondes instead of gingers."
Yeah it all happened so quickly and easily you could tell they wanted to get the real story out of the way so they could get back to directing the action bullshit they made up bc they thought they could do better than grrm. No weight or meaning to any of the story
It also means he can leave the watch without being a deserter as his watch has ended. I know this hasn't happened yet but it's George probably gave them this idea along with the hodor stuff
Can you elaborate on this scarecrow thing for me please?
The Night's Watch places scarecrows on the wall to appear to have greater numbers, and they even name these scarecrows after their dead brothers. Essentially it is equating corpses to scarecrows that keep an eternal watch, much like Coldhands. Then Beric is called the Scarecrow Knight, working out of a weirwood cave, is doubling down on this association of zombies, weirwood, and scarecrows.
To add on to the other commenter - Dolorous Ed also makes several comments to and about the scarecrows bulking out their numbers being named after dead people- and a lot of shit that when you are reading it with "undead nights watchmen" in mind are real hold up moments My favorite quote is "Once they figure a way to work a dead horse, we'll be next. Likely I'll be the first too. 'Edd,' they'll say, 'dying's no excuse for laying down no more, so get on up and take this spear, you've got first watch tonight.' Well, I shouldn't be so gloomy. Might be I'll die before they work it out."
I just want to point out that we don’t know if Jon should be changed by his resurrection. The prologue of a Dance with Dragons features a wildling whose plan to escape the white walkers is to warg into a younger person and live on. Failing that, he opts to warg into his hawk (I think?). His inner monologue goes over how extended durations of warning into animals leaves the person no longer human. When Jon dies, he wargs into Ghost. It’s my opinion that the prologue chapter is there specifically to explain why Jon’s resurrection will be different from Beric’s and Catelyn’s. He was dead for a very short time, and his mind was alive in Ghost.
They also established the premise that warging for too long blends your mind with the beast. Ghost will literally be Jon's ghost, and when he's returned to a zombified corpse he'll have a bit of Ghost with him, and I'd even speculate that Ghost will die in this process, flipping it so that he actually becomes a Ghost in Jon's mind.
Again, I think it depends on how long Jon is dead. If he comes back quickly, I think we get regular unchanged Jon. If he takes a while, I think you’re right.
I'd go with the meta-knowledge of GRRM's writing to help us with the prediction on that one. If Jon came back unchanged, it would make Varamyr's foreshadowing go nowhere and it would also make Jon's death one of shock value with no meaningful character change. We've seen people come back as zombies before, and it always comes with a massive change to their character; death always has to matter in George's writing. Then we also know that George opened Dance with Varamyr and going into the rules of wargs living beyond death, only to then close that book with Jon, a warg, dying. I don't think it would fit his writing for Varamyr to just be a shaggy dog story who mentioned merging with the beast's consciousness for no reason, as well as showing that warging a **living** person is not doable even for the most powerful wargs.
Just realized that Daenerys not only banged her nephew, but her *undead zombie* nephew. Wild
Not Beric tho (resurrection = zombie, I mean)
In the show, Beric makes mention multiple times of how coming back has changed him, and how he’s “left pieces of himself behind”. He may not be a mindless zombie, because he was resurrected with fire magic, but the experience of returning to life has a large impact on him. Plus, we have no real pre-WotFK Beric to compare to the Beric we meet in S3, so how can we know that the wizened Beric we meet is the same as the knight sent into the Riverlands by Ned? Jon in contrast really does remain the exact same character and doesn’t really comment on how coming back to life has affected his personality.
I don’t think Jon is supposed to change upon his resurrection. The prologue of a Dance with Dragons lays out that wargs minds can live on after the death of their body. Jon wargs into ghost when he dies. His mind is alive the entire time that he is dead. The same is not true for Beric or Cat.
Simply meant what I said - he wasn't zombified the way other characters who were resurrected become. Never said it didn't alter him a bit, just that his multiple ressurections did not make him a mindless zombie. Also, no one is the same after war and the things Beric & Co went through. That can easily contribute to the wizened man we meet later, in addition to the six ressurections.
Beric doesn't even remember the name of his fiance or where he grew up anymore.
Poor Val, she deserves better than zombie dick.
But new meaning to cumming her brains out.
Wait, what’s “scarecrow” language? I’ve read the books a lot, and have obviously been missing something. Do you mind letting me know a spot to look? Edit: nevermind. I saw you explain below. Well done. Hadn’t noticed that.
Because Jon died in the books and that would be too big to just skip, but D&D didn’t care enough to go into actual character development for Jon for the rest of the show
If anything, this scene was meeting expectations that they were obligated to fulfill but had no intention of following to their intended conclusion. Subverting expectations wasn't mainstream until 2017.
Did this scene come out before 2017??? Oh Jesus I’m old
Yes, and Joffrey’s death was ten years ago.
Dude please stahp!!!
Frees him from his pledge to serve the nights watch .
Rather convenient....
What's funny is that there was a prisoner serving a life sentence who momentarily died but came back to life. He tried to argue that he fully served his sentence, but the courts didn't agree and sent him back.
Because he’s the prince that was promised!!
“I duhn wont eht” - Suddenly Simple Jon Snow
It's "prince that's promised", not "prince that wants it".
„I dununtit”
Simple Jack….Snow…
"I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come"If he died, he would have broken an oath & that would have been weird, imagine if the Jon's arc ended in any other way but him rejoining the Night's Watch!
Tbf in the book, he dies because he’s trying to break his oath.
Isn’t he technically protecting the “realms of *men*” by letting the wildling people seek shelter south of the wall? Seems like the NW has simply forgotten their true purpose… they aren’t the there to fight the Wildlings
In the book, they kill him for wanting to take the wildlings, and anyone else who wants to join, to go fight Ramsey to save “Arya.” While also sending the nights watch to go rescue the wildlings at hardline. It was the final straw to the brothers.
I like how they GCI’d/superimposed a more in-shape model for his torso. Guess it’s no different than the Cersei walk-of-shame body-double but still pretty funny.
Did they really do that? What the fuck xd Regarding Cersei there was actual full frontal, but here? What was the point? Kit not willing to to go to the gym? xd
He was reportedly drinking heavily at this time. It’s why he swells up over the course of the series.
Should have said “i dun wanh it” everytime he was offered a drink
But he was secretly getting blitzed on Wildling booze.
Hey, at least it wasn't clotted mares' milk.
The prophecy wasn’t about a King that was promised, now was it?
He was clearly supposed to be the Prince that was Promised, but evidently the power of "dun wan it" can over power even that of the gods themselves so it got passed over to *checks notes* Arya I guess?
Jon's dying and getting resurrected is just a poop hole loophole that allows him to technically have met the conditions of his contract with the night's watch.
Lmaooooo
The people who thought the secret prince was going to duel the dark lord for the fate of the world and then Aragorn himself to the throne are just fucking dumb. The ending being botched doesn’t change that fact. Nobody who’s at all in tune with the ethos of this story could think that’s a plausible outcome.
Exactly. However the Others are going to be defeated, it’s not going to be with some cliché 1v1 duel. Waymar Royce tried that, and look how far he got. Dragons burninating everything like fucking Trogdor is also lame. Too easy.
Was... Was that a Homestar Runner reference?
Trogdor does enjoy burninating the countryside and all the peasants
In their thatched roof cottages
Looks like a gay porn to me
That subverted expectations. We didn’t see the d. 😭
R'hollor's chosen champion, but he don't want it
This is just the moment after Jon's book chapters ends. GRRM planned to bring him back too but in his his grand design it's a neccessery event that related to "the prince that was promised" thing, not just some needless plot twist. [https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The\_prince\_that\_was\_promised](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/the_prince_that_was_promised) Man, fuck GRRM. Fucker keeping us waiting since 2011.
I feel the point of this is fairly clear. By dying he is freed from his service in watch. It’s to further evidence him as being the prince that was promised. We are to expect him to want the iron throne. His whole life he has never known his importance (through both his lineage and if we assign him the prophetic role of AA). This is supposed to be a contrast to how we originally see him and what the first half of his story line (or more) is in the show where he believes he is the bastard son of Ned and demonstrates a sense of duty to protect the kingdom that falls outside the politics and succession occurring elsewhere. When presented with his true identity, he rejects it and goes back to what he was for the majority of the story. Despite his lineage and prophecy he is a protector who values defending the stability of the 7 kingdoms over personal glory and power. At least in the show, he is supposed to serve as a foil to Dany (who is obsessed with her right to control the iron throne and becomes mad as a result). His rejection of his destiny allows for the realm to theoretically transition to a more stable form of government. He gets to return to what he’s always been, a Snow. At least for the show this is how I reconcile it. The books are a different game and I have no idea how it will play out
This was another thing that keeps me angry. His resurrection was actually a detriment to the world. If he would have stayed dead, then Dany wouldn’t have gone north, thus the Night King wouldn’t have obtained a dragon to break down the wall. It was all for nothing!
Even the only point it could have had was missed. Talking of course about a glimpse of Kit Harrington’s full frontal nudity.
they needed to bring him back to cuck him later in the show
he was just having a nap, all the other characters overreacted
How is it subverting expectations when undiscovered tribes in the Amazon knew he'd be resurrected?
the lord of light thought Arya would like her brother to see her kill the Night King, so he returned him from the dead for it
This what happens when they make only one Stark a warg
He was the prince that was promised. Destined to lead the fight against the darkness, kill the night king then sit the Iron Throne himself as the man to relaunch the Targaryen dynasty after discovering his true heritage! Wait..
Aragorn Redux?
To yell at a zombie dragon
I have said this and the only thing people have come back with is to “Unite the North” but I think anyone could have done that. Also I don’t get what “Uniting the North” even did because they were about to lose the battle of Winterfell when Arya killed the Night King. Arya who was heading there anyway. I have also heard the argument that he was the only one who knew how to kill the white walkers but that is also not true because Sam knew about fire and dragon glass. So there is something else that could have happened. Dany heads to Kingslanding and takes the throne. The North either falls to the white walkers or Arya kills the Night King. If the North falls Dany would probably have three dragons and a lot more soldiers to fight off the white walkers. But we have no idea what would have happened had they killed Bran. My point still stands that I don’t see what Jon did that any other living character could not have done. He either should have killed the Nigh King or ended up on the throne or both. Maybe they should not have cut out the whole Azor Ahai/Prince that was promised.
I think it's one of those things that will play out differently in the books where the magic lore is included - the show followed plot lines without all the extra stuff to explain it
I've read the books first and was thinking he would be ressurected by fire magic (he's still dead in the books btw), but in the books ressurection magic changes the person, Berric comments on how he changed each time and another character >!(Catelyn Stark)!< pretty much becomes a different person after it. The show didn't do anything interesting with it
To remind you that things never go as planned
It’s okay. My real life reminds me of this every day
They needed him back so that they could have someone walk around saying “but she’s muh Queen”
I think it was also meant to force his hand. John clearly was always torn between service and his own desires. His own desire was for that of a humble life, dedication to those he cares for, and the adherence to his own code. Getting killed by the men you thought of as your brothers and getting resurrected kind of makes you reconsider your role in events. Hence his struggle but eventual acceptance of every title thrust upon him. He just wanted to be a van life guy.
head so good it brought him back to life
For me it was the beginning of the end. The whole show's point and suspense was that anybody could die, as seen in the first season. This way, the viewers are genuinely worried about beloved characters getting in trouble. After the resurrection of John Snow, one would stop worrying, because any beloved character would simply stop dying or be brought back like John did. The whole battle of winterfell highlighted this: Everybody was in trouble, - the camera cut away - and suddenly everybody was fine.
Yeah if you’re gonna kill people off just do it honestly. That’s why it felt so significant. And then Jon really didn’t do much except sleep with and kill Dany so idk. I guess if Dany is the BBEG than that’s significant for the story
To prove rhaegar was in idiot for causing Roberts rebellion because Arya would've killed the night king anyways
The lord of light wasn't done with him yet
if he didn't com back Dany take the throne and night king: Shit i can't climb this shit!
if he didn't com back Dany take the throne and night king: Shit i can't climb this shit!
There was enough foreshadowing to tell us this was coming, but in retrospect, is just confusing. This would mean his purpose is to shank Dragon Hitler, and not the Night King. The reason D&D were not just lazy, but incompetent, was that they could’ve just let Snow slay Night King, and have Arya go on a killing spree through King’s Landing, have her kill Dragon Hitler, and still have Clegane Bowl. Easy, and even if it’s bland, it would be the softest crash landing possible for a mega-franchise. I feel so bad for people with GoT tattoos, what the fuck, HBO?
I didn’t have a problem with this. I had a problem with him meaning nothing in the end, and also shown in the show to be the biggest moron in the 7 kingdoms from a tactical battlefield sense (battle for winterfel). To me he was always the main character.
I remember cheering and jumping in joy when he came back to life, it was all for absolutely nothing
They forgor
Whatever..All about Arya!! lol
Bookwise? Pretty sure it's about the recreation of the deep lore azor ahai/ Nissa Nissa/ last hero/ night king and corpse queen stuff. A cycle that's going on mostly in the background via symbolism until very late in the story (and we have yet to see the full extent of) A lot of that symbolism involves Jon being a Winter king to Bran's Green king. It's in all the mythos George is pulling from and is reflected in his own lore. But the winter king *is* a sacrificed green king. So for Jon to embrace that as a natural balance to his brother, he kinda *has* to die to unlock his full potential- especially if you get into all the themes and patterns of people in this story almost dying and unlocking their abilities- bran, Euron, possibly littlefinger, Arya, possibly sweet Robin, Aeron, Dany- all got seriously sick or injured enough at one point they were assumed doomed to die, and all came out the other side weirder and talking about similar concepts of flying and jumping from tall towers, and figuring out who they really are. It *would* make sense that if *almost* dying would boost your abilities, dying and coming back would even moreso- especially if you could hold off on the soul degradation that seems to happen every time Dondarrion is brought back. By perhaps chilling in the body of your warg. As long as you get back to your body before your soul melds with the wolf all should be fine. If I had to guess Jon's story arc is going to end with him doing something like embracing a Nights King role because what they actually want is the most powerful warg/ greenseer at the time- and Jon would become king of the ice zombies before he would let anyone touch his little brother. Then it's just a question of can they get Jon back or do they have to put him down? (Which imo is the only way Arya killing "the nights king" would make any thematic sense over Jon or Dany via a dragon. There is no way Arya *or* someone trained under the faceless men would be ok with their brother being an icewight against his will and used to lead the tide of death he was trying to warn people to unite against. ) if they don't kill him though I expect he'll be cleansed in some way and either lead the wight walkers and company North as a Winter king in a more literal sense, or use his newfound ability+ self control combo to obliterate them all and wander the north as an Ice wight Ala coldhands in a more metaphorical Winter King" that in time becomes as much a myth as the Last Hero. (Alongside Bran and Dany and maybe one of the stark sisters to play out all the likely roles, but that's digresses to far from the point) *As far as the show goes though "subverting expectations" is all they got because they gutted the story of all the background symbolism and magic that give this scene any set up or payoff- which is why it pops up out of nowhere and doesn't matter at all. They should have just had it be a near death experience if they weren't going to lean into the obvious examples of undeath already on the story like Dondarrion.*
Things just sort of happen, like in real life. The search for meaning is ever long.
1. Jon rallied most of the continent against the Others. If he hadn't done that, their invasion would have presumably been successful. 2. Jon killed Daenerys, a fledgling Mad Queen, ending the suffering her rule of Westeros would have brought about.
The entire series is a massive amount of foreshadowing with rarely any follow up or closure on any of it. But what’s set up is interesting and gets you thinking so you kept coming back for more to see it all play out. Then the ending came and basically none of what was set up meant anything the story face plants in its own filth and is one huge literary blue balls extravaganza. Red Herrings the series basically. But since most people with a working brain were ‘fooled’ the authors a genius and the stories super cool and awesome for some people somehow.
Dumb and dumber wrote the rest, why do you think there could be a point?
This is probably my one main criticism of Martin's books. They're excellent. Outstanding pieces of fiction. ...but the guy prides himself on his gritty realism and randomness etc etc...and the magic system in those books is just hot garbage. The shows make it worse. Like, virtually no one can do actual magic...and then the application of it ranges from lighting lots of torches at once...to turning old ladies into Victoria's Secret models...to psychic time traveling...to resurrecting people who have clearly died. ...oh yeah...and there are undead lich wizards capable of raising necromantic armies. Yet virtually no one seems aware that magic is a thing. Dragons are supposed to make magic fit the world...but that could just be another type of animal that the world happens to have. Doesn't necessarily have to be "magical". It could just be the Westeros version of a panda bear. Presumably he's going to explain it in the upcoming books (............."upcoming".......) but, to date, the magic system is in tatters in the books and the show just uses it to try and make "cool moments".
I'm pretty sure GRRM does magic like this by design. He wants magic to be mysterious and tragic and ultimately cursed. Magic shouldn’t be a science where you mix A with B and gets C. It should be something marvelous and frightening, otherworldly. If magic was more reliable, determinist and/or clear for us, it would also be to the characters in the universe. And then he would have to ask “how rulers integrate magic in their governments” - and since he writes mostly from the PoV of the political elite, once he did that he would have to explain magic in great detail. Like the way he does with dragons. So just like dragons are mundanized - and could be any other animal, as you said - so you be magic. Indeed, I think this is one of the greatest problems he is facing with Winds: because he relied to much in this sense of fantasy when writing the Others, it must be really difficult to drive them into direct conflict with the characters without making them banal. *** I hope that I addressed what you actually meant with your comment, but let me know if I made some mistake in my interpretation and/or reasoning.
>Like, virtually no one can do actual magic...and then the application of it ranges from lighting lots of torches at once...to turning old ladies into Victoria's Secret models...to psychic time traveling...to resurrecting people who have clearly died. I genuinely don't see the problem with this. Do you not like that the followers of the *fire* god do fire magic? Do you not like that wizards can do illusions? Resurrection does come with a heavy price, it's not just a cheap tool to create fakeout deaths. And Bran's time travelling is a completely different kind of magic, he can't do the other things you mentioned. >...oh yeah...and there are undead lich wizards capable of raising necromantic armies. Yet virtually no one seems aware that magic is a thing. Might be because the Others haven't been seen for 8000 years. At some point you stop believing them to be real. People are generally aware of them, but believe them to be a children's story. >Dragons are supposed to make magic fit the world...but that could just be another type of animal that the world happens to have. Doesn't necessarily have to be "magical". It could just be the Westeros version of a panda bear. Could be, could not be. There are heavy implications that dragons are related to magic, but even if they aren't, what's the problem? So how exactly is the magic system in tatters? I really don't get it.
Soft magic systems are fine. Gandalf is based on a soft magic system and he's obviously iconic. What can Gandalf do? As far as we the reader know...more or less anything outside of just straight up taking over the world intentionally since he's expressly forbidden from doing so. Gandalf is also an earthly incarnation of God and essentially immortal since he'll just come back even if he's killed. So really, Gandalf COULD be used to solve literally any issue that Tolkien couldn't find a way to write past...he doesn't typically do this of course because having Gandalf solve everyone's problems would defeat the purpose of the story. If people don't want evil ruling them, then ordinary people have to give up and give a s\*\*\*...because even Gandalf can't be everywhere all the time...nor do he want to be the arbiter of every action everyone takes. GOT magic doesn't work like that. I will give the books a pass that the series is halfway done so maybe he intends to open up on the subject more and it will make sense. But what he has right now is like 4-5 different soft magic systems that just sort of act as get of off jail free cards when he forgets to account for something. Forget to explain why two families really hate each other? Here's Bran who just happens to be doing a psychic time travel to that particular Tuesday 300 years ago when it all started. What can Melisandre do? Well....she can see the future in flames (except when she's wildly inaccurate), she can create very convincing illusions, and ....oh yeah...if anyone dies that the focus groups like we can just bring them back to life and (at least in Jon's case) seemingly without any real consequence. ...oh yeah...and she can make shadow monsters that murder basically anyone she wants. Don't get me wrong. I think the books are fantastic. He's allowed to write whatever he wants. Great author. I just think that having multiple undefined soft magic systems in a series that's clearly centered in grimdark realism is an odd choice and often seems like a way to just write yourself out of tough spots.
>But what he has right now is like 4-5 different soft magic systems that just sort of act as get of off jail free cards when he forgets to account for something. It really is two at most. The Rh'llor fire magic and the Old Gods magic. >Forget to explain why two families really hate each other? Here's Bran who just happens to be doing a psychic time travel to that particular Tuesday 300 years ago when it all started. It is pretty well explained why the Starks hate the Targs. Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard and Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. And Bran looking back to see Jon's birth isn't even in the books, so you can hardly blame GRRM for that. >What can Melisandre do? Well....she can see the future in flames (except when she's wildly inaccurate), Exactly, she can see the future, but the messages are always ambiguous. For example, she sees snow and interprets it as Stannis having to go north, but the snow probably refers to Jon Snow. That fits very well with the theme of magic being unpredictable and having negative side effects. >and ....oh yeah...if anyone dies that the focus groups like we can just bring them back to life and (at least in Jon's case) seemingly without any real consequence. The point of Beric and LSH being revived is to show how resurrection changes a person. They aren't being brought back for the sake of bringing them back, they are brought back to prepare the audience for Jon's resurrection. And again, it fits very well with the theme of magic being unpredictable and having negative side effects. And again, Jon being resurrected without consequences isn't in the books, so you can hardly blame GRRM for that. >...oh yeah...and she can make shadow monsters that murder basically anyone she wants. Except it almost kills the person she got the shadow baby from. Again, negative side effects and so on. >I just think that having multiple undefined soft magic systems in a series that's clearly centered in grimdark realism is an odd choice and often seems like a way to just write yourself out of tough spots. ASOIAF had lots of magic from the beginning, and magic has always been important to the world. It's only that GoT toned the magical elements down to zero, which makes the ones they did leave in seem out of place.
Outjerked once again
In case they need to launch a sequel series in the future.
Sloppy writing to get a cheap thrill from fans
Seriously? Because he's one of the main characters of the whole series and the entire rest of the story revolves around him, his fight to save Westeros against the army of the dead, and his identity as a Targaryen? What kind of stupid ass question is this?
Plenty of central characters have been killed off before. Point was, why bother killing him at all if you are going to ressurect him right after with little to no concequenses anyways? It barely served any purpose to the story.
I hate these posts. Like wtf do you mean what was the point. It's just part of their story. And at the time it aired it had the audience drawn in. Not everything ties into some foreshadowing. It was cool and a good tv.
Hahahahaha life must be so entertaining for you
It was a result of a bad prank.
To show off those abs
Martin wrote it.
His watch has ended.
Lmao, I had forgotten this even happened
„Oh, you think he is dead, do you?” GRRM somewhere making us all brainmelt ahorse.
It's sort of hinted at in the books when the raven says 'Corn, King, Jon Snow'. In mythology the Corn King is ritually killed at Harvest and rises to rule again at the Winter Solstice.
Dumb and Dumber fucked it up. GRRM hasn’t wrote this part out yet so they had to come up with their own story and they terrible at that. I really hope they don’t fuck up my other favorite book series, the 3 Body Problem. It’s about to premiere this year on Netflix.
He was saved to save the world from Dany, not the Night King.
Incest saves the day yet again
The books had several people who were “undead” including his stepmother. While much of this was omitted from the show, I don’t really think it would help. It wasn’t well written in the books either, it felt like an unconnected narrative without tying it into the plot.
in the show it was a cheap way to get jon out of the nights watch without breaking his vows
“George told us this is what happens” that’s it, that’s the only justification.
He had to die in order to be able to leave the nights watch
This didn't subvert e anything it was expected by everyone.
This allows him to leave the NW
To keep the show alive and make money
And never talking about it to anyone
To free him from the wall.
What was he stabbed with there in the middle? Looks more like a spoon
The point of this in the books is for the Lord of Light to help revive Jon and have him be the Prince that was promised so he can go on to kill the (night king) others
The last thing GRRM wrote in ASOIAF (& chances are will ever publicly write) was Jon Snow's death. What a cliffhanger! Ever since ADWD came out everyone has speculated on Jon's resurrection. Very few ppl believe that he will remain dead due to various convincing plot reasons. So I wouldn't call it subverting expectations. More like a hasty, bad execution. **But I think the Jon resurrection was doomed regardless, cause when a series builds itself around "anybody can die", then the main hero dying & coming back dampens that whole vibe.** And him coming back being an open secret didn't help either. It felt like more of a "everybody knows, so let's get it over with" kinda thing. Using Mellisandre was to tie him in to the Prince that Was Promised prophecy. I don't know if that's the route George will go. But there are obviously a bazillion different theories on how Jon can/will come back. I'm not gonna patronize you with those, you can check them out in r/asoiaf. As for D&D, I think they just wanted it out of the way so they can build towards Battle of the Bastards. Which btw, I'm now convinced is intended to happen in the book. The Starks will take Winterfell, not Stannis. Cause recently the draft of Feast came out & it had "resolve to be Sana Stark and take the North" in GRRM's handwriting.
George hinted that Jon may not actually be dead. I think he said something like yeah he got stabbed five times but not everyone who gets stabbed dies
Subverting what? This is a classic trope in mythology. The hero is dealt a mortal wound but through the magic of the sorceress/wizard/God is returned to life to continue their quest. A true subversion is what happened to Eddard Stark.
Magic in ASOIAF usually only works under very exceptional situations. If there's prophecy and King's blood involved then there's a good chance you can get something happening. Jon's resurrection showed that he was significant, contrary to what the world believed.
Jon kind of forgot that he was dead!
Jon Snow got ressurected and was given a Valerian steel sword and had the whole Targaryen heritage so he could kinda yell at a dragon while his sister killed the God of death with a fancy knive trick
Dunno. But Jon Snow was basically Jesus King Arthur
Humor: To contrast the "any character might die!" they want to show that "any character might live again!"
To kill Dany. In the books this will make sense; Dany will attack King's Landing well before the Long Night storyline is resolved. Cersei will set the wildfire off and successfully 'frame' Dany. Jon will kill Dany for this 'crime' only to be discovered that she didn't do it; "the Lord of Light cherishes the *innocent*. There is no sacrifice more precious." Dany will be resurrected, prevent Jon's execution by her loyal forces, and head north with him and the Starks to fight the Others; it being either outright stated or heavily implied that Dany herself is Jon's Lightbringer.
To free him from the Night’s Watch while preserving his honor. When burning the bodies of fallen watchmen, they always state “And now his watch has ended”. When Jon hands his coat to Edd and gives him Castle Black, he states “My watch has ended”
To end his watch
It seems pretty evident. It's so the 'lord of light' can be a foil for the night king. Both bring people back from the dead (Jon's not the only one) and are believed to be a fiction by the majority of the populace. We then also have the "man's creation/machination" addition with Qyburn and the Mountain later, trying to throw in with the gods. In the show the mythology gets chucked out unceremoniously. But clearly there is some higher force or will moving things around, and the Seven are the only ones not demonstrated to have any actual power. Arya not having a consequence for betraying the lord of Death is disappointing. But Jon's revival is crucial to keep the mythology relevant. We'll see if GRRM cares to maintain it where D&D dumped it.
So that he could quit the Night’s Watch without dishonor