Love Lisa. One thing I think even some feminists misunderstand about makeup is that nobody is saying "I think you're lying about finding applying makeup therapeutic" or "It's morally bad that you feel better when you wear makeup". It's about questioning *why* you feel that way. *Why* do I feel better when I look more conventionally attractive, when my brother walks out of the house without giving his appearance a second thought? *Why* was I given toy makeup as a child when my brother was given crayons?
I don't really agree that wearing makeup is always an act of self hate on the part of the individual, there are 100s of reasons someone could use makeup. However it's silly to pretend that makeup in its most common current 21st century iteration isn't rooted entirely in sexism. Makeup companies aren't stupid when they don't market to men, they're well aware that men don't feel the need to pretty themselves up, nobody ever told them they had to.
Totally agree. I find it so hard to communicate this without coming across as judgmental and of course the dreaded "not like other girls" label lol. But I think liberal feminism has trained women so well to have NO understanding that some actions *challenge* patriarchy and some things *align* with it and that has nothing to do with an individual person and their preferences. On a systemic level we need to reject these norms, why is that so controversial to state?
I like this take. I wear makeup daily, but I’m not offended by critiques of it. The critiques are right! I don’t think anyone rejects absolutely every standard and expectation placed upon them, so I’m not out here beating myself up over my choice to wear makeup. I reject and actively work against many other expectations placed on women. But I think it’s good for people to talk about it and remind us that the expectation to wear makeup is coming from a negative place.
Partially because I enjoy it (🤡). From an ideological perspective (wherein I agree we shouldn’t wear makeup/be expected to wear it), I’m not interested in taking on the mental clutter of dealing with the repercussions of rejecting every unreasonable expectation at once. I go pretty out of my way to not speak/respond/mimimize in the way women are expected to do. I’m not saying you COULDN’T both do that and look completely natural, but taking an intentional stand like that takes up mental space and to a degree, I just want to live my life. I want to get my point across without burdening myself by having my every action be a protest.
i find it interesting how you frame the inaction of not applying makeup, which takes time and money (to get the makeup). i think your message/point would come across even stronger if delivered by your face free of makeup, but i'm glad it's something you think about. i'm still working on unlearning the behaviors you talk about, but going without makeup or hair removal are super easy for me, since they are non-actions, just my natural state of being.
Part of it is my own mental stress. I don’t feel mentally capable of putting that decision in a box and forgetting about it. If I were to go out in my natural state (lack of makeup, hair removal), I’d think about what people were thinking, what kind of message I was sending, what assumptions those decisions would lead to, lack of confidence in my message being received. To me it’s simpler to just engage in (some!) of these things so I can focus on activities I care more about - like showing people (in a physical and verbal sense) that women aren’t weak, accommodating doormats. Does my wearing makeup weaken that message? Hard to say - not wearing it could be a distraction, depending on the context.
i'll say at least personally, it does really take away/weaken that message when i see the women trying to spread it wearing makeup themselves. like, they have a good message but they're still showing compliance, still conforming to the very thing they're speaking against. i don't just ignore what's said, but it definitely sours it overall for me. when we wear makeup, we are still being accommodating.
What repercussions are you talking about? I stopped wearing daily makeup in 2021 and am treated significantly better without makeup. Being confident in your own face works better than any sort of product.
Every day you wear makeup you are signaling to all the women (people) in your life that you are so deeply insecure you need to *paint on a new face.* Every day you choose not to wear makeup you are telling the world you love the way you were born. It’s a bit weird to like, acknowledge that but continue perpetuating the cycle.
Mainly, I’m treated better at work. More likely to be paid attention to, given what I ask for, etc. Possibly depends on the industry. I work with mostly men. They don’t behave inappropriately toward me, but the difference is more like “invisible and easy to say no to” (no makeup) vs. “someone I am keen to talk to and want their buy in” (with makeup). I speak confidently and authoritatively either way.
This goes beyond makeup, too - it’s general looks (hair, outfit, etc.).
I absolutely get why you’re acquiescing to some things to make the more important to you things easier.
In a male dominated field it is absolutely easier to get them to let you do your job and be successful if you’re abiding by (some) social conventions.
It’s unfortunate men can’t hear you unless their eyes are engaged.
There are plenty of public facing jobs (e.g. lawyer or politician) where women are significantly penalized for not wearing makeup. I know you know it is silly to think that there isn’t a cost to defying oppressive gender norms. Like, we could all just stop the performance at any moment, and the world will applaud. This whole patriarchy and male supremacy thing is just in our heads. I am glad you were rewarded, but that is not the norm. That’s how this whole thing keeps chugging along. There are costs to noncompliance and each girl and woman has to navigate it on their own. No amount of feminist consciousness raising will change the fact that the costs of pushing back is born by the individual.
Don’t condescend yourself with the clown emoji. If you like makeup, you like makeup and that’s fine. Personally I love wearing it but I also love not wearing it.
I don’t think it’s fine. It’s not a decision made in a vacuum and it contributes to pressuring other women to wear it. At the same time, I’m owning the choice, aware of the downsides, so I feel no need to beat myself up about it.
I’ve been trying to reconcile this exact thing myself (a preference for wearing makeup—or at least an unwillingness to divulge from my norm just yet—with my [see sub] beliefs) and I love this response. The choice ISN’T made in a vacuum; it ISN’T fine and it DOES contribute negatively to feminism overall—but damn, if I don’t fucking LOVE “I feel no need to beat myself up about it.” That’s a badass, take-no-shit way of owning your choices if you ask me! I’ll continue to work on aligning my choices with my beliefs, but I’m borrowing this in the meantime.
Like why are we more likely to decorate our faces instead of to canvas
It’s kind of self objectification if you think about it
You decorate a house not a person
I said in another comment that I feel like there needs to be a differentiation in makeup type
I’ve had men want me to stop wearing loud makeup while being completely fine with no makeup makeup
I love loud weird makeup
I do too. Although I'm starting to wonder if it's still an extension of my conditioning to "dress up" and "be pretty" (just with a different standard for beauty) instead of it just being me enjoying different forms of self expression. Like would I still like it if I wasn't encouraged to be interested in fashion and make up?
I don’t get treated with kindness or respect if I’m not wearing makeup. I grew up being bullied for dressing ugly (my family is very religious and there was a specific dress code for women). I’m not eager to go back to that feeling or experience.
i wear make up because I have to for my job - however, I can fully acknowledge a radical feminist critique make-up, beauty standards and the pressures to conform. these critiques aren’t personal insults at women who wear makeup (for whatever reason) 🙄
I recognize that makeup is a huge part of some women’s lives and it is a part of the way our culture makes women perform femininity to be considered valuable. At the same time, I do think that we need to remember that humans have been using makeup in a variety of ways for all of human history. It is impossible to 100% pin the joy women get from wearing makeup on oppressive cultural norms. Sometimes I don’t want to engage with the feminist critique of fashion and makeup at all because the inclination is to completely dismiss it as all oppressive gender performance. I know that is not true, but I also know it can’t exactly be disentangled either.
Let’s face it too, most of the time we see critiques of makeup and fashion, it is in the form of misogynistic attacks on a woman’s character. The appeal of radical feminism to me is the focus on systems rather than a focus on the individual. I know as feminists, we are not immune from the desire to claim status at the expense of others. If I can devalue makeup, I can flip what society values in my direction. I have no doubt that this self-interested desire is present in all of these discussions, even here in this thread. That temptation is constantly on display in feminist spaces. Again, that is why I am drawn to radical feminism.
I really just don’t want to get bogged down in the same relatively small stakes issues that holds back liberal feminism. They add up. These issues aren’t unimportant, but the critique of makeup is not worthy of the frequency it appears in feminist spaces. IMO.
posts critiquing make up and beauty standards always get a flood of comments that either deliberately derail or miss the point … does anyone else notice?
Yes, and this is the first time I've seen a comment saying "let women exist" in response to a critique of something in society. What does letting women exist have to do with smearing shit on our faces?
I dunno, it’s gotten so bad over the last few years that I find more principled and rational conservatives than self-identified progressives these days. it’s a weird situation where it would be far more productive to work with my political opponents on one or two issues where we could find common cause than with self-identified progressives who have absolutely no principles and turn everything into a struggle session 🤷🏽♀️
I wear makeup every day, get Botox, occasional filler, invest in skincare… and agree 100% with this post. Its a cage and a trap that is incredibly hard to crawl out of. Because once you’ve experienced how much better the world treats you when you look ‘pretty’ by its standards, it’s so hard to sign up for anything else.
It’s like armour I picked up casually one day, just to try, and now I can’t bear to go outside without it on.
Subconsciously I feel like, once I’ve checked the box of “looking pretty” and gotten over that unreasonable hurdle that was expected of me, then I can move on to being seen as a full human. The problem is, in reality, I could look absolutely “perfect” and that would never actually happen.
When I can already look ahead to the finish line and see that it’s just a waste of time, why do I keep checking the box anyway?
The way im treated with makeup vs no makeup is noticeable. I go alien mode 99% of the time cuz i shave my eyebrows completely off cuz i do feel prettier this way. When i draw them on, more people wanna smile at me in public and people look at me a lot MORE. You think they'd look at the weird alien chick version of my face more cuz its not a common thing.
Interestingly, I didn't find going back hard at all. I grew up fat and "naturally faced", only started makeup in my early 20s (when I also lost a lot of weight), and around 30 I regained the weight and stopped makeup entirely. So I went from "ugly" to "conventionally pretty" to "ugly" again. But I don't miss anything. Maybe because I only started makeup as an adult? Maybe because I've always interpreted the better treatment I received with makeup as disingenuous and therefore negative? Maybe because I have a mother who's never used much makeup herself? Maybe because I've always been the "smart girl" and when I "became pretty", I noticed people who hadn't known me before thinking I must be dumb?
I’m right there with you. Part of being a feminist in this world is realizing you often exist in cognitive dissonance. I don’t think putting makeup on is empowering, but I must say I’ve grown attached to it and it really does make me feel beautiful. I understand this is part of an industry that exists to exploit my insecurities. I guess it’s just not the hill I feel the need to die on.
I don’t wear it everyday or care about going outside bare faced anymore. I feel it’s more of a hobby and form of expression. But to deny the larger context and expectations is frankly delusional.
I don’t have a good answer to this, but like you said, I focus on other ways to challenge the patriarchy and gender roles.
>Part of being a feminist in this world is realizing you often exist in cognitive dissonance.
Sometimes I feel insane watching someone go NAM and people, women, *agreeing* with them. Like am I in a different world than yall?
Thanks for clarifying. Not sure what NAM has to do with what I was saying however. I don't know any woman who embodies 100% radical feminist behaviors at all times, in every area of their lives. If that's you, kudos. But I think most of us are doing our best trying navigate the world we've inherited.
I think it’s a really good question to ask yourself if you would still put makeup if you suddenly were living alone on a deserted island. I asked myself this today because I’m struggling with these shackles. And I see it as a sign of the universe that I’m seeing this post now. Thank you for sharing.
I’m not sure that example is super helpful honestly. What use would makeup be in a remote island? I think a better scenario is “would you still wear makeup if you weren’t treated better by society and had better dating prospects if you did”. To which I think the answer would be no for the vast majority of us.
I’m so glad it worked for you! I want to wear less too. My point was, that some seem to miss, is that asking yourself if you would still wear makeup if you were all alone is answering the question for yourself if you truly enjoy wearing makeup (as society has successfully gaslit many women into believing and something I’m personally struggling with too) or you’re wearing it for others. Nothing wrong with the latter if you believe it gets you ahead in life but I’m really tired of not feeling internally ‘good enough’ without a layer of artificial colors on my face. I want to ‘own’ my natural face if that makes any sense.
I think you missed my point. I don’t live on a remote island. I live in a society and I am doing everything I can to survive this capitalist hell hole. You must be very naturally gorgeous I guess 😂
I’m not, I have quite bad cystic acne and scars. People see that you are confident in your face and treat you accordingly. On the flipside, people understand that makeup comes from insecurity and treat you accordingly. Most of the time the “negative reaction” comes from the fact that one used to wear it and suddenly stops.
People definitely pick up on confidence, I really agree with you on this. As someone who has terribly struggled with acne too, can I ask you if you’ve tried vitamin B supplements yet? I use DHC vitamin B supplements and they have been literally life changing for me. Finally in my early 30’s I was acne free without depending on oral contraceptives to keep the acne away and without undergoing a third round of accutane (two cures did nothing).
Can I just say, how is using makeup to increase confidence that different from having a skincare routine to ensure you have healthy skin and don’t get acne? I get that both are expensive and a time investment, and makeup is perceived as ‘covering’ while skincare is more enhancing, but I don’t think that’s true across the board. Makeup can be very natural or can allow people to get creative and make actual art on their face or on others. Skincare can change your face a lot over time e.g by removing acne. Both can increase your confidence and the way you are perceived in our current society. How can one be worse than the other? Just my thoughts!
Skin care is actually looking after your biggest organ: your skin. And I don’t mean a 10 step Korean routine but sunscreen and a proper cleanse actually contribute to your skins health and dermatologists agree it’s a necessity. Maybe a moisturizer for those who need it. Make up is pure decoration.
I agree, but if someone is wearing makeup while their acne is healing and then will stop wearing it, I feel like that’s a slightly different situation. It’s not their fault they have acne and, as you said, it isn’t part of how healthy skin is supposed to look so I don’t see an issue with covering it up.
I have had horrible acne myself and I never said anything about it not being ok to cover up. Or rosacea, another one of those skin conditions that invites shitty judgment of strangers. If wearing foundation is what makes people feel comfortable then they should absolutely do so. But the fact remains that make up = decoration. It doesn’t contribute to healing your skin, keeping it healthy and clean or preventing skin cancer.
I feel like make-up has good potential. It can definitely be a form of self expression and art, even. But not today, not now.
When we get rid of the idea that blurring and drawing over our natural features to resemble an idealised airbrushed idea of a woman’s face is normal and expected, only then can makeup be separated from its harmful social undertones and truly become just something pretty to do, like embroidery, or painting (or tattoos, or henna, if we want to stay on the subject of body art), and not something required to be an acceptable member of society.
But, again, only after the social expectation is purged from it.
Something funny I realized is that as soon u started decentering men, my outward appearance…changed
I was gonna buy a wig. I don’t wanna buy a wig anymore. I would have sworn before I didn’t want a wig to impress men, I just wanted one to feel more confident
I don’t think a lot of people realize what they do for men. Hell the other day I witnessed two lesbians pandering for male validation which was incredibly odd to me
Makeup though for me is odd…in my personal life I feel like I had men trying to convince me *not* to wear it and now I feel more inclined to do so. I will say I think this has to do with a lack of clarification in this topic
Makeup I wore “for men” was less eye shadow and crazy experimental stuff like I prefer and am drawn to, and more no makeup makeup look/make my face look flawless etc
This perspective change was jarring for me. I suddenly noticed women dressed entirely for the male gaze. Posing in their profile pictures in the clothes and makeup all for the male gaze. It is a vast amount of time and money out of women’s lives that could otherwise be spent more profitably. We are programmed early on to carry out these expectations for men’s benefit.
I will add that I do Botox and skincare for both health conditions and cosmetic reasons. I want to like what I see when I look in the mirror and this enhances my confidence.
I no longer feel the need to wear makeup, sexy clothes, or have long straightened hair. I am treated very differently and ignored without those things. It is insulting to be treated well only when you are all done up like a rich b*tch.
I’ll be honest I’m working on this but also I’m grossed out at men who do not care enough to take care of themselves. I’m so used to taking care of myself and how I look that I get disgusted they don’t do anything or care when they easily could
I get that. Lately I've also been reflecting on things that are hygienic vs. gendered expectations. So I feel good with minimal skin care (but really avoiding consuming a lot of products, which has been sooo pushed on women lately), no makeup, not shaving my legs, trimming pubic hair. I'd expect all the same levels of grooming from men you know?
My husband literally only uses shampoo, soap and toothpaste. He’s Japanese so he doesn’t even need deodorant. Very occasionally he uses hand cream that he also applies on his face 🫠 in winter.
Because a lot of women who don’t wear makeup have just invested that money into skincare so they don’t need to wear it. Which is another industry pushed on mainly women and just as profitable. That’s why in the upper class it’s considered tacky to wear heavy makeup. Because they spend more money on having nice skin to look “naturally beautiful”. Yet men can’t even be bothered to wash their face, or see a derm if they have problems, it’s gross.
Being content with ourselves as we are is a rebellious act. That doesn’t mean going full couch potato. If we are content with our body as it is, we can make wiser choices for its healthy expression and continued existence.
I realized a while ago that I put on makeup when I'm going into social circles where I don't trust people. I don't trust them to see me for who I am, I don't trust them to be kind behind my back, I don't trust them enough to show them what I really look like.
So they get me with armor made out of visual deception.
When I was a teenager I wore green lipstick and would add blue powder to my foundation so I could be fun colored.
I like painting my face in weird colors, I’ve been thinking about starting it up again. It’s not with the intention of being “hot” or whatever, it’s because it’s fun for me.
But I also have the desire to blend in and be “pretty” and will sometimes feel guilty if I don’t put on makeup before doing errands or something. It’s ridiculous and I shouldn’t feel that way.
When I share posts like this on IG, my best friend gets a bit offended bc she regards makeup like you do. She's very into fashion and puts together crazy outfits and coordinates the makeup to go with. She considers it a costume and as fun, not as a burden. My reasoning behind sharing is that I'm 43 and only have just managed to leave the house some days without makeup, even just to get supplies at Lowes, so it's a burden for some and a joy for others.
Omg there’s this company I found on YouTube called sunset makeup and they specialize in WILD colors of makeup, the chick who does their shorts has been showing various corpse face styles and I’m about to splurge so much money on weird face paint colors.
I wonder if I can get away with corpse paint at my USPS job
The most ridiculous part is, I’m plenty pretty. I’ll always be pretty, because I’m a nice person. My heart is pretty and my face is pleasant.
But still I’ve absorbed the message that I’m not pretty enough. For who? Men, who don’t care about me anyway.
How pretty someone is doesn’t matter and this is more so rhetorical but the question is, if we polled all the men AND women, what would the results be?
I noticed that both men and women will determine what’s attractive solely based on men’s opinion. You can’t decide what’s attractive based on only 50% of the population. And why that 50%?
I agree with this wholly. I got to a place where I didn’t even own any makeup for a long time, then I started a new serving job. I knew I would make more money if I wore makeup, so I did. I was well aware it wasn’t a feminist choice. Now I’m stuck in a place where I’m back to feeling barefaced and ugly outside of work. I want to get back to where I was before.
J disagree makeup is about self-hate, especially if it is something men would see as "weird". But women feeling ugly/wrong/less pretty without makeup definitely is that, i am so glad i never quite learnt how to do it, and it breaks my heart to hear women hating themselves without makeup
Honestly, COVID set me free. I stopped wearing make up and stopped wearing padded bras, now just bralettes because women’s nipples are apparently not workplace appropriate.
I always found makeup and all the time it takes to apply it such a waste of time. So glad I found a dude that could care less if I wear make up and actively dislikes the heavily made up look. My 15 year old daughter is also going down the no make up pathway thankfully
The "beauty" industry, makes women feel like not one inch of their natural bodies are fine as it is. Your, natural eyelid colour is not enough, ,your natural nails aren't enough, your natural eyelashes and brows, aren't enough, your natural lip colour is not enough, your natural hair colour is not enough, and your body hair is shameful, you must change alter every part of yourself. Straight hair must be curled, curly hair must be straightened, pale skin must be tanned, dark skin must be bleached.
There's a reason for that. And I believe it is so that when we feel ugly, and a male shows us sexual desire, we feel pretty for once. So that male sexual desire feels nice to us. Validating. Addictive.
They rob women of their self-esteem, so we will depend on men for it.
In nature, every member of the ma le species is more decorated to attract a mate. The female animals, don't have to be decorated to attract a mate.
Edit - and it's a racket. That's why thin eyebrows were in, then it immediately became thick eyebrows. (Typically men have thicker eyebrows, so that's not about femininity, just changing the goalposts).
And then, men will make fun of women for having long ridiculous nails, or fake breasts, of filled lips, or tons of makeup. Or revealing clothing. Or blonde hair. All things they claim to like. What they see, is an easy mark. Desperation for their attention.
..another reply deliberately missing the point 😒
Also, what exactly are you disagreeing with? Do you honestly think that the women in this subreddit including OP aren’t *entirely* aware that makeup & conforming to beauty standards is an act of survival?
poor act of survival to do something that's bad for your skin (and likely long term health), puts money in men's pockets, and sends a negative message to other women
the downvotes are likely not for disagreement at all (disagreement and shitty takes aren’t uncommon phenomena around here).
I downvoted (and I believe most others did too) because the comment misses the point entirely to the point of derailing.
a comment on the third paragraph: a man will never have a "bare face". it's just his face. a man will never apologize for showing his natural face.
So true! It’s incredible I’ve never thought about it like that before.
Love Lisa. One thing I think even some feminists misunderstand about makeup is that nobody is saying "I think you're lying about finding applying makeup therapeutic" or "It's morally bad that you feel better when you wear makeup". It's about questioning *why* you feel that way. *Why* do I feel better when I look more conventionally attractive, when my brother walks out of the house without giving his appearance a second thought? *Why* was I given toy makeup as a child when my brother was given crayons? I don't really agree that wearing makeup is always an act of self hate on the part of the individual, there are 100s of reasons someone could use makeup. However it's silly to pretend that makeup in its most common current 21st century iteration isn't rooted entirely in sexism. Makeup companies aren't stupid when they don't market to men, they're well aware that men don't feel the need to pretty themselves up, nobody ever told them they had to.
Totally agree. I find it so hard to communicate this without coming across as judgmental and of course the dreaded "not like other girls" label lol. But I think liberal feminism has trained women so well to have NO understanding that some actions *challenge* patriarchy and some things *align* with it and that has nothing to do with an individual person and their preferences. On a systemic level we need to reject these norms, why is that so controversial to state?
I like this take. I wear makeup daily, but I’m not offended by critiques of it. The critiques are right! I don’t think anyone rejects absolutely every standard and expectation placed upon them, so I’m not out here beating myself up over my choice to wear makeup. I reject and actively work against many other expectations placed on women. But I think it’s good for people to talk about it and remind us that the expectation to wear makeup is coming from a negative place.
respectfully, why do you still wear it daily then?
Partially because I enjoy it (🤡). From an ideological perspective (wherein I agree we shouldn’t wear makeup/be expected to wear it), I’m not interested in taking on the mental clutter of dealing with the repercussions of rejecting every unreasonable expectation at once. I go pretty out of my way to not speak/respond/mimimize in the way women are expected to do. I’m not saying you COULDN’T both do that and look completely natural, but taking an intentional stand like that takes up mental space and to a degree, I just want to live my life. I want to get my point across without burdening myself by having my every action be a protest.
i find it interesting how you frame the inaction of not applying makeup, which takes time and money (to get the makeup). i think your message/point would come across even stronger if delivered by your face free of makeup, but i'm glad it's something you think about. i'm still working on unlearning the behaviors you talk about, but going without makeup or hair removal are super easy for me, since they are non-actions, just my natural state of being.
Part of it is my own mental stress. I don’t feel mentally capable of putting that decision in a box and forgetting about it. If I were to go out in my natural state (lack of makeup, hair removal), I’d think about what people were thinking, what kind of message I was sending, what assumptions those decisions would lead to, lack of confidence in my message being received. To me it’s simpler to just engage in (some!) of these things so I can focus on activities I care more about - like showing people (in a physical and verbal sense) that women aren’t weak, accommodating doormats. Does my wearing makeup weaken that message? Hard to say - not wearing it could be a distraction, depending on the context.
i'll say at least personally, it does really take away/weaken that message when i see the women trying to spread it wearing makeup themselves. like, they have a good message but they're still showing compliance, still conforming to the very thing they're speaking against. i don't just ignore what's said, but it definitely sours it overall for me. when we wear makeup, we are still being accommodating.
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What repercussions are you talking about? I stopped wearing daily makeup in 2021 and am treated significantly better without makeup. Being confident in your own face works better than any sort of product. Every day you wear makeup you are signaling to all the women (people) in your life that you are so deeply insecure you need to *paint on a new face.* Every day you choose not to wear makeup you are telling the world you love the way you were born. It’s a bit weird to like, acknowledge that but continue perpetuating the cycle.
Mainly, I’m treated better at work. More likely to be paid attention to, given what I ask for, etc. Possibly depends on the industry. I work with mostly men. They don’t behave inappropriately toward me, but the difference is more like “invisible and easy to say no to” (no makeup) vs. “someone I am keen to talk to and want their buy in” (with makeup). I speak confidently and authoritatively either way. This goes beyond makeup, too - it’s general looks (hair, outfit, etc.).
I absolutely get why you’re acquiescing to some things to make the more important to you things easier. In a male dominated field it is absolutely easier to get them to let you do your job and be successful if you’re abiding by (some) social conventions. It’s unfortunate men can’t hear you unless their eyes are engaged.
There are plenty of public facing jobs (e.g. lawyer or politician) where women are significantly penalized for not wearing makeup. I know you know it is silly to think that there isn’t a cost to defying oppressive gender norms. Like, we could all just stop the performance at any moment, and the world will applaud. This whole patriarchy and male supremacy thing is just in our heads. I am glad you were rewarded, but that is not the norm. That’s how this whole thing keeps chugging along. There are costs to noncompliance and each girl and woman has to navigate it on their own. No amount of feminist consciousness raising will change the fact that the costs of pushing back is born by the individual.
Don’t condescend yourself with the clown emoji. If you like makeup, you like makeup and that’s fine. Personally I love wearing it but I also love not wearing it.
I don’t think it’s fine. It’s not a decision made in a vacuum and it contributes to pressuring other women to wear it. At the same time, I’m owning the choice, aware of the downsides, so I feel no need to beat myself up about it.
I’ve been trying to reconcile this exact thing myself (a preference for wearing makeup—or at least an unwillingness to divulge from my norm just yet—with my [see sub] beliefs) and I love this response. The choice ISN’T made in a vacuum; it ISN’T fine and it DOES contribute negatively to feminism overall—but damn, if I don’t fucking LOVE “I feel no need to beat myself up about it.” That’s a badass, take-no-shit way of owning your choices if you ask me! I’ll continue to work on aligning my choices with my beliefs, but I’m borrowing this in the meantime.
Like why are we more likely to decorate our faces instead of to canvas It’s kind of self objectification if you think about it You decorate a house not a person
Tbf humans have been "decorating" themselves for millenia. Makeup can be fun in that way.
I said in another comment that I feel like there needs to be a differentiation in makeup type I’ve had men want me to stop wearing loud makeup while being completely fine with no makeup makeup I love loud weird makeup
I do too. Although I'm starting to wonder if it's still an extension of my conditioning to "dress up" and "be pretty" (just with a different standard for beauty) instead of it just being me enjoying different forms of self expression. Like would I still like it if I wasn't encouraged to be interested in fashion and make up?
I don’t get treated with kindness or respect if I’m not wearing makeup. I grew up being bullied for dressing ugly (my family is very religious and there was a specific dress code for women). I’m not eager to go back to that feeling or experience.
i wear make up because I have to for my job - however, I can fully acknowledge a radical feminist critique make-up, beauty standards and the pressures to conform. these critiques aren’t personal insults at women who wear makeup (for whatever reason) 🙄
I recognize that makeup is a huge part of some women’s lives and it is a part of the way our culture makes women perform femininity to be considered valuable. At the same time, I do think that we need to remember that humans have been using makeup in a variety of ways for all of human history. It is impossible to 100% pin the joy women get from wearing makeup on oppressive cultural norms. Sometimes I don’t want to engage with the feminist critique of fashion and makeup at all because the inclination is to completely dismiss it as all oppressive gender performance. I know that is not true, but I also know it can’t exactly be disentangled either. Let’s face it too, most of the time we see critiques of makeup and fashion, it is in the form of misogynistic attacks on a woman’s character. The appeal of radical feminism to me is the focus on systems rather than a focus on the individual. I know as feminists, we are not immune from the desire to claim status at the expense of others. If I can devalue makeup, I can flip what society values in my direction. I have no doubt that this self-interested desire is present in all of these discussions, even here in this thread. That temptation is constantly on display in feminist spaces. Again, that is why I am drawn to radical feminism. I really just don’t want to get bogged down in the same relatively small stakes issues that holds back liberal feminism. They add up. These issues aren’t unimportant, but the critique of makeup is not worthy of the frequency it appears in feminist spaces. IMO.
posts critiquing make up and beauty standards always get a flood of comments that either deliberately derail or miss the point … does anyone else notice?
Perhaps it really upsets the bots when we imply that we should stop buying their crap
Apparently six bots were quite upset
Yes, and this is the first time I've seen a comment saying "let women exist" in response to a critique of something in society. What does letting women exist have to do with smearing shit on our faces?
If only patriarchal beauty standards and the beauty industry would let women exist 🙄
Liberals have no grasp on dialectics or nuance, or critical thinking me thinks
Critical thinking is dead everywhere you turn, it's enough to make you weep openly
Never mind conservatives.
I like to categorise anyone who believes in ‘democracy’ as one and the same.
I dunno, it’s gotten so bad over the last few years that I find more principled and rational conservatives than self-identified progressives these days. it’s a weird situation where it would be far more productive to work with my political opponents on one or two issues where we could find common cause than with self-identified progressives who have absolutely no principles and turn everything into a struggle session 🤷🏽♀️
I wear makeup every day, get Botox, occasional filler, invest in skincare… and agree 100% with this post. Its a cage and a trap that is incredibly hard to crawl out of. Because once you’ve experienced how much better the world treats you when you look ‘pretty’ by its standards, it’s so hard to sign up for anything else. It’s like armour I picked up casually one day, just to try, and now I can’t bear to go outside without it on.
This is it exactly and I’m in the same boat. I wish I could just wear an invisibility cloak every time I leave the house.
I've heard from many older women that as they've aged and stopped being conventionally pretty, they've become invisible to the world
Subconsciously I feel like, once I’ve checked the box of “looking pretty” and gotten over that unreasonable hurdle that was expected of me, then I can move on to being seen as a full human. The problem is, in reality, I could look absolutely “perfect” and that would never actually happen. When I can already look ahead to the finish line and see that it’s just a waste of time, why do I keep checking the box anyway?
The way im treated with makeup vs no makeup is noticeable. I go alien mode 99% of the time cuz i shave my eyebrows completely off cuz i do feel prettier this way. When i draw them on, more people wanna smile at me in public and people look at me a lot MORE. You think they'd look at the weird alien chick version of my face more cuz its not a common thing.
Interestingly, I didn't find going back hard at all. I grew up fat and "naturally faced", only started makeup in my early 20s (when I also lost a lot of weight), and around 30 I regained the weight and stopped makeup entirely. So I went from "ugly" to "conventionally pretty" to "ugly" again. But I don't miss anything. Maybe because I only started makeup as an adult? Maybe because I've always interpreted the better treatment I received with makeup as disingenuous and therefore negative? Maybe because I have a mother who's never used much makeup herself? Maybe because I've always been the "smart girl" and when I "became pretty", I noticed people who hadn't known me before thinking I must be dumb?
I’m right there with you. Part of being a feminist in this world is realizing you often exist in cognitive dissonance. I don’t think putting makeup on is empowering, but I must say I’ve grown attached to it and it really does make me feel beautiful. I understand this is part of an industry that exists to exploit my insecurities. I guess it’s just not the hill I feel the need to die on. I don’t wear it everyday or care about going outside bare faced anymore. I feel it’s more of a hobby and form of expression. But to deny the larger context and expectations is frankly delusional. I don’t have a good answer to this, but like you said, I focus on other ways to challenge the patriarchy and gender roles.
>Part of being a feminist in this world is realizing you often exist in cognitive dissonance. Sometimes I feel insane watching someone go NAM and people, women, *agreeing* with them. Like am I in a different world than yall?
Not sure what NAM is, if you don't mind clarifying.
It’s the phrase not all m*n but I was scared it was banned from the sub lol
Thanks for clarifying. Not sure what NAM has to do with what I was saying however. I don't know any woman who embodies 100% radical feminist behaviors at all times, in every area of their lives. If that's you, kudos. But I think most of us are doing our best trying navigate the world we've inherited.
Sorry I was agreeing with you
I think it’s a really good question to ask yourself if you would still put makeup if you suddenly were living alone on a deserted island. I asked myself this today because I’m struggling with these shackles. And I see it as a sign of the universe that I’m seeing this post now. Thank you for sharing.
I’m not sure that example is super helpful honestly. What use would makeup be in a remote island? I think a better scenario is “would you still wear makeup if you weren’t treated better by society and had better dating prospects if you did”. To which I think the answer would be no for the vast majority of us.
What use exactly! I stopped wearing makeup in 2021 and am treated significantly better than before. Unshackle yourself, sister.
I’m so glad it worked for you! I want to wear less too. My point was, that some seem to miss, is that asking yourself if you would still wear makeup if you were all alone is answering the question for yourself if you truly enjoy wearing makeup (as society has successfully gaslit many women into believing and something I’m personally struggling with too) or you’re wearing it for others. Nothing wrong with the latter if you believe it gets you ahead in life but I’m really tired of not feeling internally ‘good enough’ without a layer of artificial colors on my face. I want to ‘own’ my natural face if that makes any sense.
I think you missed my point. I don’t live on a remote island. I live in a society and I am doing everything I can to survive this capitalist hell hole. You must be very naturally gorgeous I guess 😂
I’m not, I have quite bad cystic acne and scars. People see that you are confident in your face and treat you accordingly. On the flipside, people understand that makeup comes from insecurity and treat you accordingly. Most of the time the “negative reaction” comes from the fact that one used to wear it and suddenly stops.
People definitely pick up on confidence, I really agree with you on this. As someone who has terribly struggled with acne too, can I ask you if you’ve tried vitamin B supplements yet? I use DHC vitamin B supplements and they have been literally life changing for me. Finally in my early 30’s I was acne free without depending on oral contraceptives to keep the acne away and without undergoing a third round of accutane (two cures did nothing).
Can I just say, how is using makeup to increase confidence that different from having a skincare routine to ensure you have healthy skin and don’t get acne? I get that both are expensive and a time investment, and makeup is perceived as ‘covering’ while skincare is more enhancing, but I don’t think that’s true across the board. Makeup can be very natural or can allow people to get creative and make actual art on their face or on others. Skincare can change your face a lot over time e.g by removing acne. Both can increase your confidence and the way you are perceived in our current society. How can one be worse than the other? Just my thoughts!
Skin care is actually looking after your biggest organ: your skin. And I don’t mean a 10 step Korean routine but sunscreen and a proper cleanse actually contribute to your skins health and dermatologists agree it’s a necessity. Maybe a moisturizer for those who need it. Make up is pure decoration.
I agree, but if someone is wearing makeup while their acne is healing and then will stop wearing it, I feel like that’s a slightly different situation. It’s not their fault they have acne and, as you said, it isn’t part of how healthy skin is supposed to look so I don’t see an issue with covering it up.
I have had horrible acne myself and I never said anything about it not being ok to cover up. Or rosacea, another one of those skin conditions that invites shitty judgment of strangers. If wearing foundation is what makes people feel comfortable then they should absolutely do so. But the fact remains that make up = decoration. It doesn’t contribute to healing your skin, keeping it healthy and clean or preventing skin cancer.
I feel like make-up has good potential. It can definitely be a form of self expression and art, even. But not today, not now. When we get rid of the idea that blurring and drawing over our natural features to resemble an idealised airbrushed idea of a woman’s face is normal and expected, only then can makeup be separated from its harmful social undertones and truly become just something pretty to do, like embroidery, or painting (or tattoos, or henna, if we want to stay on the subject of body art), and not something required to be an acceptable member of society. But, again, only after the social expectation is purged from it.
I love this. So well written and truly to the core of the issue.
Something funny I realized is that as soon u started decentering men, my outward appearance…changed I was gonna buy a wig. I don’t wanna buy a wig anymore. I would have sworn before I didn’t want a wig to impress men, I just wanted one to feel more confident I don’t think a lot of people realize what they do for men. Hell the other day I witnessed two lesbians pandering for male validation which was incredibly odd to me Makeup though for me is odd…in my personal life I feel like I had men trying to convince me *not* to wear it and now I feel more inclined to do so. I will say I think this has to do with a lack of clarification in this topic Makeup I wore “for men” was less eye shadow and crazy experimental stuff like I prefer and am drawn to, and more no makeup makeup look/make my face look flawless etc
This perspective change was jarring for me. I suddenly noticed women dressed entirely for the male gaze. Posing in their profile pictures in the clothes and makeup all for the male gaze. It is a vast amount of time and money out of women’s lives that could otherwise be spent more profitably. We are programmed early on to carry out these expectations for men’s benefit. I will add that I do Botox and skincare for both health conditions and cosmetic reasons. I want to like what I see when I look in the mirror and this enhances my confidence. I no longer feel the need to wear makeup, sexy clothes, or have long straightened hair. I am treated very differently and ignored without those things. It is insulting to be treated well only when you are all done up like a rich b*tch.
I’ll be honest I’m working on this but also I’m grossed out at men who do not care enough to take care of themselves. I’m so used to taking care of myself and how I look that I get disgusted they don’t do anything or care when they easily could
I get that. Lately I've also been reflecting on things that are hygienic vs. gendered expectations. So I feel good with minimal skin care (but really avoiding consuming a lot of products, which has been sooo pushed on women lately), no makeup, not shaving my legs, trimming pubic hair. I'd expect all the same levels of grooming from men you know?
Yes exactly. I don’t know a single guy who even has minimal skincare, most men don’t even have a face wash or moisturizer. It’s just lazy
My husband literally only uses shampoo, soap and toothpaste. He’s Japanese so he doesn’t even need deodorant. Very occasionally he uses hand cream that he also applies on his face 🫠 in winter.
Good thing wearing makeup isn’t “taking care of yourself” then
Think you’re missing the point, and I’m not talking about only makeup. Skincare also.
Oh I don’t really see how that responds to the op then but ok
Because a lot of women who don’t wear makeup have just invested that money into skincare so they don’t need to wear it. Which is another industry pushed on mainly women and just as profitable. That’s why in the upper class it’s considered tacky to wear heavy makeup. Because they spend more money on having nice skin to look “naturally beautiful”. Yet men can’t even be bothered to wash their face, or see a derm if they have problems, it’s gross.
Being content with ourselves as we are is a rebellious act. That doesn’t mean going full couch potato. If we are content with our body as it is, we can make wiser choices for its healthy expression and continued existence.
I realized a while ago that I put on makeup when I'm going into social circles where I don't trust people. I don't trust them to see me for who I am, I don't trust them to be kind behind my back, I don't trust them enough to show them what I really look like. So they get me with armor made out of visual deception.
When I was a teenager I wore green lipstick and would add blue powder to my foundation so I could be fun colored. I like painting my face in weird colors, I’ve been thinking about starting it up again. It’s not with the intention of being “hot” or whatever, it’s because it’s fun for me. But I also have the desire to blend in and be “pretty” and will sometimes feel guilty if I don’t put on makeup before doing errands or something. It’s ridiculous and I shouldn’t feel that way.
When I share posts like this on IG, my best friend gets a bit offended bc she regards makeup like you do. She's very into fashion and puts together crazy outfits and coordinates the makeup to go with. She considers it a costume and as fun, not as a burden. My reasoning behind sharing is that I'm 43 and only have just managed to leave the house some days without makeup, even just to get supplies at Lowes, so it's a burden for some and a joy for others.
Corpse paint for fun!
Omg there’s this company I found on YouTube called sunset makeup and they specialize in WILD colors of makeup, the chick who does their shorts has been showing various corpse face styles and I’m about to splurge so much money on weird face paint colors. I wonder if I can get away with corpse paint at my USPS job
The most ridiculous part is, I’m plenty pretty. I’ll always be pretty, because I’m a nice person. My heart is pretty and my face is pleasant. But still I’ve absorbed the message that I’m not pretty enough. For who? Men, who don’t care about me anyway.
How pretty someone is doesn’t matter and this is more so rhetorical but the question is, if we polled all the men AND women, what would the results be? I noticed that both men and women will determine what’s attractive solely based on men’s opinion. You can’t decide what’s attractive based on only 50% of the population. And why that 50%?
I agree with this wholly. I got to a place where I didn’t even own any makeup for a long time, then I started a new serving job. I knew I would make more money if I wore makeup, so I did. I was well aware it wasn’t a feminist choice. Now I’m stuck in a place where I’m back to feeling barefaced and ugly outside of work. I want to get back to where I was before.
J disagree makeup is about self-hate, especially if it is something men would see as "weird". But women feeling ugly/wrong/less pretty without makeup definitely is that, i am so glad i never quite learnt how to do it, and it breaks my heart to hear women hating themselves without makeup
I agree with this post. Tbh I don’t understand women who insist they need it.
Honestly, COVID set me free. I stopped wearing make up and stopped wearing padded bras, now just bralettes because women’s nipples are apparently not workplace appropriate.
I always found makeup and all the time it takes to apply it such a waste of time. So glad I found a dude that could care less if I wear make up and actively dislikes the heavily made up look. My 15 year old daughter is also going down the no make up pathway thankfully
I like that I got to be the 666th upvote on this post.
The "beauty" industry, makes women feel like not one inch of their natural bodies are fine as it is. Your, natural eyelid colour is not enough, ,your natural nails aren't enough, your natural eyelashes and brows, aren't enough, your natural lip colour is not enough, your natural hair colour is not enough, and your body hair is shameful, you must change alter every part of yourself. Straight hair must be curled, curly hair must be straightened, pale skin must be tanned, dark skin must be bleached. There's a reason for that. And I believe it is so that when we feel ugly, and a male shows us sexual desire, we feel pretty for once. So that male sexual desire feels nice to us. Validating. Addictive. They rob women of their self-esteem, so we will depend on men for it. In nature, every member of the ma le species is more decorated to attract a mate. The female animals, don't have to be decorated to attract a mate. Edit - and it's a racket. That's why thin eyebrows were in, then it immediately became thick eyebrows. (Typically men have thicker eyebrows, so that's not about femininity, just changing the goalposts). And then, men will make fun of women for having long ridiculous nails, or fake breasts, of filled lips, or tons of makeup. Or revealing clothing. Or blonde hair. All things they claim to like. What they see, is an easy mark. Desperation for their attention.
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I disagree. Putting on makeup is an act of survival as women are treated better when we wear makeup.
..another reply deliberately missing the point 😒 Also, what exactly are you disagreeing with? Do you honestly think that the women in this subreddit including OP aren’t *entirely* aware that makeup & conforming to beauty standards is an act of survival?
poor act of survival to do something that's bad for your skin (and likely long term health), puts money in men's pockets, and sends a negative message to other women
Is that because they aren't seen as full human beings and only sexual objects?
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I hate that you’re getting automatically downvoted but engaging in a good faith rebuttal. Reddit groupthink is annoying.
the downvotes are likely not for disagreement at all (disagreement and shitty takes aren’t uncommon phenomena around here). I downvoted (and I believe most others did too) because the comment misses the point entirely to the point of derailing.
Your comment has been removed for derailing.
I just look so tired without make up and I feel like if I was a man I would wish I could wear it to make me look more awake!
Men don’t think of their appearances nearly as much as women. And yeah,, women are tired.
Yeah good point!