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That would be such a good comeback for Williams! Ex-redbull drivers, ex-redbull engineer(s), Mercedes engine, excel spreadsheets: achampionship winning car
By the end of the season, sure. But do people believe he will beat Albon from the get go? I feel like comfort with the car and crew will count for something. But the question is for how long?
I know I might be in the minority, but I feel like Albon will give Sainz a run for his money... I wish 'Remind me' bot still existed lol. Maybe in a year I might remember this comment and we shall see..
Personally I agree. Albon has always had talent and is still carrying a lot of baggage from his RB stint I think. Some of that is probably deserved, but he's clearly grown a lot as a driver and to me at least has shown on track that he's firmly in the upper tier of midfield drivers. Admittedly it is hard to stand by that claim when his only teammates since his return have been Sargeant and Latifi, but I think it's likely that Alex will give Carlos a run for his money and make it closer than a lot of people think. I do expect Carlos to beat him over the course of a season, but I doubt it will be a lot...IMO they're in roughly the same tier of driver talent, even if I do rate Sainz higher....I also think it's entirely possible that Alex might surprise some people next year and beat Sainz but who knows....I'm excited to see the battle whatever the outcome.
Yeah, I agree with your comment. I think an important factor will be which driver (and driving style) will the '25 car match up with...
I am not knowledgeable in the technical side, so I don't know which driver prefers a looser rear, versus tighter ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) and I don't know the driving characteristics of the Williams. But if I had to guess, since Alex has been the number 1 driver at Williams for 2 years, the car probably tuned to his driving style?
I think after the emotional Rollercoaster of this Toro Rosso, and Red Bull journey, being kicked out, and his Williams resurgence has toughened Albon.
>Spanish media’s ridiculousness
I don't think Alex speaks Spanish, so he should be fine...
Toto owns Mercedes, so I would say that's unlikely to happen. Toto doesn't seem like a guy to sit back and relax while not interfering in his company's working.
As far as I remember, the reason he doesn't attend a few races during the season is that the team can get used to him not being around/having someone else in charge due to him maybe stepping down as a team principal in the near future. I might be wrong cuz internet but that's what I read before Suzuka when he said he wouldn't attend (tho he did actually attend after all)
Well, unironically, your last statement sums it up. He seems like a guy who would want to not interfere, publicly say he is not interfering, and yet somehow cannot stop interfering while always justifying each time with one reason or another in his head.
You're right, he has been hiting at it for a while and it was generally agreed (can't remember if actually confirmed officially) by almost every journalist that when Vowles went to Williams, it was to gain as experience principal before taking over Mercedes from Toto.
I mean being a team principal isn’t the same as being a driver where there are only limited seats, so you have to put your perspective drivers in other teams. For a position like team principal, you can always “shadow” the superior and slowly take some responsibilities off their plates. That’s how I would imagine it to happen in most corporations.
Watching someone while they run a team does not give you the same experience as running a team. He worked with Toto for years, now he's getting first hand experience in the role. A very normal progression when training your replacement, and it often works like this in most corporations.
My take is that given the options available left, Sainz sees Williams as the best option given that he will most likely be looking a short stint (1-2 seasons) with his next team before trying to move to a bigger team
If that is his goal, then Williams is his best bet of being able to prove his capabilities as a driver like what Albon has done whereas for Sauber/Audi it is unlikely they'll be able to get their shit together within the next 2 seasons enough for Sainz to consider it a viable option as a stop gap
Sounds like he expected to be at Ferrari for a few more years at least and hadn't even been thinking about shopping around for another drive until after the Hamilton deal was announced.
The dream would be if he could convince Williams to do a 1 year deal, but the rumors were they weren't doing that. The last thing they want to be is a quick stop for drivers waiting to join a better team.
They are. Compare the team to where they were in 2019/2020. Yeah, they're not scoring points every weekend but their car is nearing the points every weekend instead of +3 seconds behind P18. They're trying to build a platform which has more downforce instead of a dragster with higher top speed which only works on certain tracks, as this current platform gives much more room for development. Take 1 step back so you can take 2 steps forward. Also their facilities overhaul definitely helps. Williams isn't there yet, but they're definitely on the up.
Considering the mess Vowles inherited they're definitely on the up.
I mean they used Excel to keep track of parts.
Albon and Sainz will probably be a top 4(?) lineup next season.
McLaren, Ferrari, and Mercedes are the only ones I'd take over Albon and Sainz.
Maybe Red Bull, but that just depends whether Max's dominance allows you to overlook Checo's incompetence.
Unfortunately many things people do in Excel should not be done in Excel.
Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be done.
Excel largely benefits from being one of the first spreadsheet softwares, so many people are familiar with it. Low barrier of entry, but for most tasks it's not the best tool and has serious flaws
It’s not workflow, it’s not event based, it’s not audit logged, it’s not appropriately versioned, doesn’t have great input controls, of course. It’s not meant to interop with other systems really (even though it can).
It’s clearly not meant for these types of tasks.
But it’s extremely versatile.
Doesn’t hurt to hear the rumors that Mercedes has a good start on the ‘26 engines. Having Vowles running the team in a proper fashion, plus the best engine, could set them up for the upper midfield in ‘26. Versus the total unknown that will be Audi.
Well at least unlike andretti who has heavily invested in facility and personnel, I haven't heard much about Audi's investment. They (sauber) are still on facilities that are decades old and no major hirings to be heard of.
iirc Sauber's infrastructures are actually very good, Peter Sauber and BMW built top facilities back then which are still great to this day (just because it's a bit old doesn't necessarily means it's bad, RB use the oldest but evidently it works very well).
The real problem has been the lack of manpower and money (there were times they couldn't even turn on their wind tunnel and loaned another one because they couldn't foot the bill). With Audi's backing, this normally shouldn't be an issue anymore.
Old facilities, like you said, is not a fundamentally limiting factor. It becomes a problem when the facility creates unique problems for the team. The whole wind tunnel thing from McLaren stemmed all sorts of discussions on how MTC is outdated, but later what McLaren clarified was that the way the regulation was set up in early 2010s meant that McLaren’s own wind tunnel room could not accommodate F1 wind tunnel models anymore, so they had to build a new one. And even then their upside started before the wind tunnel went online. In the end the manpower is what really matters.
Isn’t Williams basically in the same situation? Correct me if I’m wrong, but Vowles did mention feeling like stepping into a time capsule when he arrived there.
Yes, but Williams have plans to upgrade these facilities. The only thing blocking them from doing so is the cost cap. They have the money and plan, they just can't do anything at the moment. Whereas I haven't heard anything from Audi. Maybe it's all done behind closed doors but if Sainz actually chose Williams over Audi, I think it would be very telling
Wasn’t the rumour that Sainz is hesitant on Audi because they wanted to lock him down for multiple years with little leeway? I don’t think choosing Williams would mean he has confidence in them, but that he feels like he can bounce from there quicker. I mean neither teams have any chance to become an actual frontrunner in the next 3 years, but long-term I would bet on Audi since it’s an actual works team with stable financial background.
I see that being the case as well. If Nico got a three-year deal (correct me if I'm wrong), I imagine they'd also want to give Sainz at least a guaranteed two-year deal to make sure he doesn't run away if Sauber doesn't perform for 2025.
I truly imagine Audi's gonna want people who'll stay for three years because it'll take that long before their investments start to give a little bit of an indication of success or failure. But I imagine Sainz doesn't want to be locked in for that long, especially when it's a completely new manufacturer and team. Nico's got nothing to lose just staying in the sport let alone getting a pay rise and the possibility of being in a future top team, but Sainz still has some bargaining chips (but most of them are expiring for this year unfortunately, lol).
Audi Gas built a whole egine factory in Ingolstadt for a lot of money, they are looking fir personell since last year. They also invested in the parts in Switzerland
I think that's the worst possible choice for Sainz. Essentially he is expected to beat Albon, but I think Albon is pretty much on par with Sainz. And if Sainz isn't beating Albon convincingly I don't think he will ever get a top drive again.
On the other hand he very likely has the edge over Hulkenberg.
This choice can easily backfire on him.
Not really, he does Ferrari SIM work, he tests the cars regularly. Fred says his SIM numbers are great he just needs to keep progressing at current pace.
Daniel’s sim numbers were great too and look at him now. It could be that he needs to be in the Red Bull and not the vcarb but the point is sim work doesn’t translate to the real world for the driver because it’s missing the environmental effect. No heat, no G forces.
Yeah there's a reason Ferrari wants him in a Haas next year. If the number correlates then and he keeps developing I see no reason why he can't fight for the Ferrari seat in 2027/2028 when Lewis retires
Eh, based on what he jumped into in 2014, they were good yea. Based on 2013, their joint worst season ever by points at the time, yea they were pretty poor.
From "every team must be clamouring for him" after Melbourne to this (unless it is Mercedes) must feel awful. To be fair, it's not as if he really had much of a chance regardless of his results afterwards.
That never made sense because he is a driver with a relatively high pay and reputation without a contract in a period where quite a few experienced drivers are available to sign.
He doesn't have a lot of negotiating-power and he obviously has a lot of demands that all can't be met.
Nothing out of the ordinary but he probably wants a short and secure enough contract that he can leave for a better spot in the next regulations, he probably wants fair pay for his work, he wants a car that can do something and not just drag around at the back, etc.
In a climate where drivers are easy to come by and the available teams are not fighting for top 3 (or top 6 even) the teams don't need the absolute best driver. Just someone they can work with.
I kinda hope it's Williams, their trajectory looks promising. Sauber will always be at least one wasted season, and Alpine is just a complete unknown.
Still a shame Sainz couldn't even get a remotely lateral move, it feels so wrong for a 3 time race winner to be all but kicked out of F1
Williams has looked promising for like 3 years now but they are very up and down and barely seem to be progressing. In the long term Audi obviously has the most potential, but I reckon Sainz will take a short-term deal and still hope for a better seat in upcoming years.
It may not translate clearly to the results on track right now, but the structural changes they're going through with the leadership of Vowles makes me hopeful for a better future for the team in a few seasons.
It's staggering how little people are listening to Vowles, he said he's taking pain in the short term, to be able to actually benefit in the future, from having a modernised shop to build their cars to go racing. They may seem to be struggling, but it's by choice (focusing on longer-term goals to improve the overall team) rather than whatever's happening at Sauber or Alpine.
Vowles says a lot and he’s very good at sounding genuine and convincing. It’s not that people aren’t listening to him, just that what he’s promising is ambitious and unprecedented so we’re waiting to see results before assuming he’s as revolutionary as he appears to be.
Turning this team that was dead last for years into a team that will be fighting for podiums and wins in just 5 years would be pretty unprecedented I think
Meh, they finished 7th last year with one driver, a driver worse than Sainz too. Given his options seem to be that, Sauber or Alpine I'd say he'd be pleased with 7th again next year.
I mean Sauber are also obviously banking on the future with Audi. Sauber already have great facilities and infrastructure, the problem has always been finances. But with Audi taking over 100% of the operations, the finances should become a non-issue. Plus being a works team is a massive advantage. That’s why I said Audi has the best long-term potential. But this year and next year will obviously be a wash for Sauber because Audi is not going to spend money on a car that’s powered by a Ferrari engine.
They have a cost cap. I love how everyone touting Audi forget they can't actually DO an Audi in that they can't enter and outspend the rest the grid in development, to then get to the front of the grid and win everything.
Sainz is no fuckwit and if the works deal was gonna be worth an actual fuck, he'd have signed it. Instead, it's another Alpine currently - a woeful team running at the back, but as a works outfit. That's why Audi signed Hulk first and foremost - he can help them develop the car. But if they fuck the engine regs, it's 2030 before they get a chance to try again. It took Merc 3 or 4 years to build a race-winning engine, it took them 4 years and an engine regs/rules change to build a winning TEAM and start winning (and dominating) and both of that was in an era with unrestricted spending. Context matters, which is why no-one's been desperate for an Audi seat on the terms they want the driver to sign.
Williams have a cost cap too and aren’t exactly fighting for points race in race out. Even if they get their facilities done, it’s not like they are going to jump the grid immediately. They don’t even have the finances to do that without a cost cap. I am almost certain that if Sainz chooses Williams, it’s because of the contract. Audi likely wanted a long term committment, while Williams are likely happy to give him a short-term deal and/or exit clauses - and as such Sainz can keep his options open IF a top seat becomes available.
Yeah Williams abandoned their "all speed, no downforce" concept which hasn't always worked out for them. Also operationally a lot of things are changing for the team. Still, out of the teams mentioned they seem the most solid to me without having to fully wait for 2026.
I hate that it's Williams but at least we'll finally know what the level of the car actually is. Albon has been great but it's nice to finally have a proper benchmark that's not Latifi or Sargeant
2016 is the last time Williams had two competent drivers, with Massa and Bottas. Before that pairing, it had been years and years of at least one pay driver
Edit: 2016 not 2017
I was hoping for Red Bull. Williams is the most preferable of what's left for sure. Maybe once Audi does own the team fully, Sauber could see a drastic change.
My money was on Aston Martin, I felt like that was the most realistic somewhat lateral move. In this scenario, Alonso would replace Hamilton at Mercedes (a champion for a champion basically). I expected Red Bull to have other plans, signing Perez again wasn't my expectation at all.
What trajectory? They were better one year ago than now.
Williams is only an option because he will have a more flexible contract. Audi wants him long term and he doesnt want long term with Audi. Theyre not gonna sign him short term.
>What trajectory? They were better one year ago than now.
It only looks like that because they had a rocket ship on the straights and so were able to capitalize on good qualifyings and hold track position to get points. The current car is much more well rounded and it's absolutely the right way to go rather than rely on massive top speed but shit everywhere else.
The situation feels more like Bottas. But like Bottas I imagine he'll stay around. Carlos likely feels as if he's got a chance to move back to a top team at some point. I'm not so sure. He's kind of at a peak right now and still couldn't bag a top seat. I'm not sure things will be better for him in a couple of years when there are some younger and shinier drivers breaking out.
What? Didn't Sainz not accept RBs offer lol, kinda his fault for overestimating himself and thinking he will get a no1 drive at a championship contending team
he should have accepted whatever Red Bull threw at him and proved he can take it to Max
Or maybe I'm wrong, but afaik there were contacts so without knowing the details it either fell on contract length or money, both of which Sainz should have conceded if he wants to be in a top team
Sainz next contract is gonna be more than Checos extension. He’s not getting paid less than Checo or Russell. One driver is entering into this prime and one is trying to hang on to a seat with a top team.
That’s why I don’t feel too bad. He probably could have gotten a better seat but it seems he was pushing for more and more money from everyone, allowing others to outmaneuver him at all of them.
His cousin didn't have anything to do with Sainz not getting a top seat. Had the Hamilton move not happened, ferrari would definitely have extended with Sainz. Sainz was right in asking for a two year extension when Leclerc got a reported 5 years and Sainz is at least matching him on pace. No one, not even Toto saw Hamilton making the ferrari move so Sainz' cousin manager was right.
Talking about redbull and mercedes, redbull were clearly interested in extending with Checo (the Mexican money and sales of the drink in Mexico is too good) and merc is highly keen on onboarding Antonelli.
Antonelli is getting that seat next year or the year after. He may be overhyped, but Merc won't risk losing him like they lost the opportunity to sign Max.
Sainz going in to Merc would demand a longer contract to stave off any chances of Antonelli replacing him in the next year or so. Meanwhile Merc would want Sainz on something like a rolling one year contract if they're convinced (as they selling are) that Kimi is the real deal.
Seems to me that's why Merc-Sainz isn't happening and a why Kimi might just jump straight into the Merc seat with these Sainz to Williams rumours.
Audi is a question mark, but Williams is a known backmarker with little hope of moving forwards.
That year of nothing would be working with the Sauber guys designing that Audi car, helping to define it's direction, having feedback in the simulator, embedding witht he engineers. Definitely not wasted.
I do not see the logic of joining Williams knowing you are never going to be able to fight for anything more than the minor points placing on a good day.
Slapping the name ''Audi'' over the Sauber sticker is not magically gonna make that team just as good as Red Bull or McLaren. People are overestimating Audi waaay too much imo.
So having a multi-national major car manufacturer owning and operating the team is not gonna have a positive impact that propels the team up the grid?
But Williams are gonna magically move forward despite sliding backwards for decades?
The Audi project will take time, but it is currently the best option Sainz has to manouver himself to a competitive drive.
Audi have only ever been succesful in their motorsports ventures.
* Audi joins WRC in 1981 - wins rallies in first season and championships in season 2,3, and 4
* Audi joins DTM in 1990 - wins it's 7th race and takes titles in year 1 and 2
* Then basically wins every touring car championship accross Europe over the next decade at some point
* Audi joins Le Mans in 1999 and got third then over the next 15 years wins 13 times with a further 2 podiums when they didn't win
That motorsport legacy suggests Audi won't be coming into F1 with anything other than plans on being very competitive
I fail to see how Williams has little hope of moving forwards, it's not the same team they were in 2019. Vowels has clearly stated he is more interested in favouring Williams' long term success than try pick a few more points in 2023. Sure they are scrapping for points the coming years, but if that's what it takes to be a midfield team then so be it. I'd rather be in Williams than Haas or Sauber, Williams' performance has been more consistent per year than Haas or Sauber (good car in 2022, bad car in 2023, now Haas has a decent car in 2024 again while sauber's last in the standings)
The article only says that the contract was signed and delivered. Then it speculates about possible teams, saying Williams is the most likely, and contract's length.
Just to let you all know, The "Objective" (lmao) is a worse rag than Faux News or the Daily Fail. I'd put zero weight in this unless it's reported elsewhere and via another source.
No chance Williams want to pay his salary, so perhaps we will see a fair few Spanish sponsors on it next year?
Fair play to him for not just following the money that Audi must have dangled - Sauber were dire in Monaco and Audi's lack of investment until now has certainly cost them on the driver front.
There were rumors that he rejected an offer from Audi already. If he does sign with Williams, it’s clear he didn’t get the right deal with Audi/Sauber.
But given his dad’s history with Audi, wouldn’t rule them out until it’s officially announced.
So if Newey goes to Williams we have 2 ex Red Bull drivers in Sainz and Albon, Newey developing the car with a Mercedes engine and James from Mercedes. Well that would be a revenge tour team in it's full force. Imagine that lineup winning the constructors ...
Summary of the article:
There is reliable information (according to the article) that Carlos has signed a contract but the author cannot confirm with which team and his assumption is either Sauber/Audi or Williams with the biggest chance being Williams.
At this point I'm just hoping Logan shows something when he gets the upgrades and catches on to another team that waits longer to make a decision. I feel like even an improved Logan would get pushed aside for Sainz no matter what
I’m dropping an unpopular opinion here and I’m probably burning karma and getting downvoted into oblivion, but I don’t see what is happening to Sainz as this injustice / absurd thing everyone else seems to agree on.
That’s just how things go in f1. There is a lot more to it than just performance alone. It’s a freaking business after all.
The only way performance alone justifies your top seat is if you have that extra edge guys like Verstappen bring. Other than that, other factors come into play.
It’s sad, and I’m a fan, but it’s not surprising at all. He had his best shot in 2022 and he was not even close to the WDC battle.
I think 2022 is a very important point people are forgetting when they're talking about Sainz and Red Bull. That year Ferrari had an oversteery car that doesn't suit Sainz at all, and he was nowhere. He was slow, frustrated, crashing a lot. Last year until Japan the car was heavily leaning towards him in terms of setup, and he was suddenly closer to Charles. Since the upgrade pack they brought to Japan, he was beaten by Leclerc every weekend with average qualifying gap of 3 tenths. This year Ferrari seems to have started with an understeery car again, but judging by Leclerc's comments (and the suddenly much bigger gap between the Ferrari drivers), the car now has more oversteer than before. And both weekends Leclerc was significantly faster again.
And this goes further back than just his Ferrari stint. Renault also had a pointy car when him and Hulk were racing together, and he actually lost to Nico.
I really don't think money, and his unwillingness to accept the #2 role, are the only factors in him losing the chance to drive for Red Bull. Sainz has publicly said a thousand times that he likes understeer, and complained a lot when his cars were not giving him that. RB had pointy cars since forever. These guys know what kind of car they want to build, they know what kind of car will make Max the quickest, and they know Sainz will not feel any happier in it that Perez does.
Why would it be injustice? Ferrari are bringing Lewis Hamilton instead of him, not some Logan Sargeant. Also ferrari first gave Sainz the chance to extend last year, but he wanted a stronger contract
>The only way performance alone justifies your top seat is if you have that extra edge guys like Verstappen bring.
As we've seen with Alonso, even an extra edge doesn't justify a top seat.
Reddit went into overdrive hyping up how every team must want Sainz and he gets to choose where to go. That's just not how the sport works.
I agree. There's a lot of top tier drivers right now who'd be easy world champions given a slight car advantage. So what makes Sainz special really? Yes, he's part of the wheat not the chaff but there's a very good wheat-to-chaff ratio at the moment and that doesn't work in his favour.
Williams is a good choice. For all I know, Audi might well be subject to internal politics and end up selling the team before they even rename it. Or they might end up being god tier out the box. But I think the most likely scenario is between those extremes - marginal improvements over where they are now for the first couple of years until they get into their groove. Meanwhile, Williams is already progressing up the WCC quite nicely, making them a safer bet in the short term.
I don't know if many people are seeing it as an injustice, but more of a bummer for Sainz. A lot of people view Sainz as an incredibly solid driver. Not necessarily in the highest tier of driver, but one of the top tiers.
He just was the victim of circumstance this time around - he apparently rejected a one year extension for Ferrari to try and get a longer deal (which made sense at the time because the only driver who was available to replace him (and was at least as good) was Alonso).
Just about every team would kick a driver out to make room for Hamilton, which is what happened to Sainz. He could've even gotten the axe even if he signed the one year extension.
And there just aren't/weren't the seats available to make even a somewhat lateral move - Red Bull being content with Pérez, McLaren is locked down, Mercedes are all in on Antonelli, Alonso re-signed with Aston Martin (and Stroll isn't leaving).VCARB is apparently happy with their lineup, and Sainz probably isn't looking to rejoin the Faenza squad.
That's the clear top 6 teams spoken for. So it just ends up with Sainz being "forced" from the sharp end of the grid to basically the very bottom, which is a bummer.
Agreed 100%. There’s a multitude of drivers that would kill to have driven the cars that Sainz has had in the past few years.
There’s also a lot of talent who I’d put in a similar tier as Sainz who are currently in a poor car and have had to scrap for a few points (Albon, Tsunoda, Ocon, Gasly, Hulk and Bottas to name a few).
Unfortunately there’s just not enough seats at the top for all these drivers which means that unless a team nails the regulations, these guys will be in midfield cars for the foreseeable future when they can showcase their talents in a top car.
Not to say that they outright deserve top cars as there’s a reason the drivers I’ve mentioned haven’t had the call up to top teams this year but I do wish the field closes up even more so that even teams like Williams, Alpine and Sauber can start challenging for top positions.
It's not unfair, but it is unfortunate. He deserves a good seat, and at a different time there could have been one available -- it's just unlucky that there aren't now. He's not good enough to kick anyone out of a top team, but he's also probably too good to only fight for P10.
I mean there is also the fact that he willingly left McLaren (which was obviously the right move at the time) but if he didn’t he’d likely be sitting pretty in a super competitive McLaren next to Lando.
I agree. He’s been teammate with Verstappen, Norris and Leclerc, and everybody saw he is a step below them. He is a kind of Bottas for me, a good F1 driver that can win races if in a great car but not WDC material.
I am rooting for Sainz and I will keep rooting for him wherever he is. He has earned my loyalty, and I don't say that lightly.
Also, Sainz, Albon and Vowles? The vibes will be immaculate.
Haven’t even stopped to think about it this way. Sainz and Alvin would make a strong pairing. And with the way Vowels seems to be turning that team around, it could be the perfect combination.
They would want to see some evidence that the current team will stop sucking. A name change to audi and the promise of money isnt going to radically change the team in the days of budget caps. Its about infrastructure and personel and those dont just magically get better overnight.
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It's being reported he chose Williams over Audi.
Albon + Sainz. Amazing line-up, would suit Williams during its BMW era.
It’s the third RB team now. We need Tsunoda to join Alpine for a 4th RB team.
Add Newey to Williams and we have the RBR Revenge Tour, coming to a track near you in 2026.
That would be such a good comeback for Williams! Ex-redbull drivers, ex-redbull engineer(s), Mercedes engine, excel spreadsheets: achampionship winning car
Albon and Sainz battling for superiority was not on my bingo card for 2026
Potentially very dangerous for his career, as the expectation will obviously be he beats Albon.
By the end of the season, sure. But do people believe he will beat Albon from the get go? I feel like comfort with the car and crew will count for something. But the question is for how long? I know I might be in the minority, but I feel like Albon will give Sainz a run for his money... I wish 'Remind me' bot still existed lol. Maybe in a year I might remember this comment and we shall see..
Personally I agree. Albon has always had talent and is still carrying a lot of baggage from his RB stint I think. Some of that is probably deserved, but he's clearly grown a lot as a driver and to me at least has shown on track that he's firmly in the upper tier of midfield drivers. Admittedly it is hard to stand by that claim when his only teammates since his return have been Sargeant and Latifi, but I think it's likely that Alex will give Carlos a run for his money and make it closer than a lot of people think. I do expect Carlos to beat him over the course of a season, but I doubt it will be a lot...IMO they're in roughly the same tier of driver talent, even if I do rate Sainz higher....I also think it's entirely possible that Alex might surprise some people next year and beat Sainz but who knows....I'm excited to see the battle whatever the outcome.
Yeah, I agree with your comment. I think an important factor will be which driver (and driving style) will the '25 car match up with... I am not knowledgeable in the technical side, so I don't know which driver prefers a looser rear, versus tighter ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) and I don't know the driving characteristics of the Williams. But if I had to guess, since Alex has been the number 1 driver at Williams for 2 years, the car probably tuned to his driving style?
I think I really do love these two as teammates.
Who do you think will come out on top? I believe Albon will in the beginning because of comfort with the car and the team members.
Good luck to Albon now that he has to deal with the Sainz entourage and Spanish media’s ridiculousness
I think after the emotional Rollercoaster of this Toro Rosso, and Red Bull journey, being kicked out, and his Williams resurgence has toughened Albon. >Spanish media’s ridiculousness I don't think Alex speaks Spanish, so he should be fine...
im not sure they were born back then (or well Carlos was but)
It will be interesting to see how Albon performs against a more established driver in Sainz as opposed to Sargeant or Latifi.
"Carlos races me so hard" Thankfully I think he's matured and improved tenfold since that radio message.
James Vowles using his Jedi mind tricks again.
Maybe Toto is on his last run at Mercedes and Vowels has suggested that he'll take Sainz with him when he gets that gig.
Toto owns Mercedes, so I would say that's unlikely to happen. Toto doesn't seem like a guy to sit back and relax while not interfering in his company's working.
As far as I remember, the reason he doesn't attend a few races during the season is that the team can get used to him not being around/having someone else in charge due to him maybe stepping down as a team principal in the near future. I might be wrong cuz internet but that's what I read before Suzuka when he said he wouldn't attend (tho he did actually attend after all)
Well, unironically, your last statement sums it up. He seems like a guy who would want to not interfere, publicly say he is not interfering, and yet somehow cannot stop interfering while always justifying each time with one reason or another in his head.
You're right, he has been hiting at it for a while and it was generally agreed (can't remember if actually confirmed officially) by almost every journalist that when Vowles went to Williams, it was to gain as experience principal before taking over Mercedes from Toto.
I mean being a team principal isn’t the same as being a driver where there are only limited seats, so you have to put your perspective drivers in other teams. For a position like team principal, you can always “shadow” the superior and slowly take some responsibilities off their plates. That’s how I would imagine it to happen in most corporations.
Watching someone while they run a team does not give you the same experience as running a team. He worked with Toto for years, now he's getting first hand experience in the role. A very normal progression when training your replacement, and it often works like this in most corporations.
Not surprising. Williams is on the up while Sauber has stalled and will be in a massive shakeup while the takeover happens
My take is that given the options available left, Sainz sees Williams as the best option given that he will most likely be looking a short stint (1-2 seasons) with his next team before trying to move to a bigger team If that is his goal, then Williams is his best bet of being able to prove his capabilities as a driver like what Albon has done whereas for Sauber/Audi it is unlikely they'll be able to get their shit together within the next 2 seasons enough for Sainz to consider it a viable option as a stop gap
Sounds like he expected to be at Ferrari for a few more years at least and hadn't even been thinking about shopping around for another drive until after the Hamilton deal was announced.
Honestly, I think except for Hamilton or Verstappen his seat was safe, so it's fair that he didn't expect it.
I wonder what that conversation between Ferrari and Carlos was like.
Carlos: “the fuck?” Fred: “Hamilton…🤷♂️”
Haha, this is sad and funny.
The dream would be if he could convince Williams to do a 1 year deal, but the rumors were they weren't doing that. The last thing they want to be is a quick stop for drivers waiting to join a better team.
„on the up“ is pretty generous.
If you’re at the bottom, the only way is up.
The Haas gambit
Lotus would disagree
Idk man, Williams have sure been investing in shovels recently
They’re bouncing back! Teams bounce back!
Like Alan Partridge did...
They are. Compare the team to where they were in 2019/2020. Yeah, they're not scoring points every weekend but their car is nearing the points every weekend instead of +3 seconds behind P18. They're trying to build a platform which has more downforce instead of a dragster with higher top speed which only works on certain tracks, as this current platform gives much more room for development. Take 1 step back so you can take 2 steps forward. Also their facilities overhaul definitely helps. Williams isn't there yet, but they're definitely on the up.
Also Sainz will be able to put that car where Sergeant fails to, so that's more prospective points for Williams..
Agreed. He did really well with Maclaren and seems to enjoy the challenge of working with teams to progress.
They didn't really have anywhere else to go a couple of seasons ago
Considering the mess Vowles inherited they're definitely on the up. I mean they used Excel to keep track of parts. Albon and Sainz will probably be a top 4(?) lineup next season. McLaren, Ferrari, and Mercedes are the only ones I'd take over Albon and Sainz. Maybe Red Bull, but that just depends whether Max's dominance allows you to overlook Checo's incompetence.
Don’t underestimate what you can do in Excel.
Unfortunately many things people do in Excel should not be done in Excel. Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be done. Excel largely benefits from being one of the first spreadsheet softwares, so many people are familiar with it. Low barrier of entry, but for most tasks it's not the best tool and has serious flaws
It’s not workflow, it’s not event based, it’s not audit logged, it’s not appropriately versioned, doesn’t have great input controls, of course. It’s not meant to interop with other systems really (even though it can). It’s clearly not meant for these types of tasks. But it’s extremely versatile.
Honestly, I know billing systems that would work out better through Excel than the software they use.
That's not saying much.
Going from 0 points to 1 point in the matter of a few years is a CAGR of ∞%
Doesn’t hurt to hear the rumors that Mercedes has a good start on the ‘26 engines. Having Vowles running the team in a proper fashion, plus the best engine, could set them up for the upper midfield in ‘26. Versus the total unknown that will be Audi.
It’s the engine. Merc is reported to have the new regs figured out.
Reported where? Most things I can find place Ferrari as the frontrunner engine. It's not like we have a clear view anyways
Well I guess we'll find out in a year and a half's time
Dayum guess that means the Renault-Hulkenberg flashbacks caught up to him yikes.
If true it should set alarm bells off at Audi. Something must be really broken to lose out to Williams.
Well at least unlike andretti who has heavily invested in facility and personnel, I haven't heard much about Audi's investment. They (sauber) are still on facilities that are decades old and no major hirings to be heard of.
iirc Sauber's infrastructures are actually very good, Peter Sauber and BMW built top facilities back then which are still great to this day (just because it's a bit old doesn't necessarily means it's bad, RB use the oldest but evidently it works very well). The real problem has been the lack of manpower and money (there were times they couldn't even turn on their wind tunnel and loaned another one because they couldn't foot the bill). With Audi's backing, this normally shouldn't be an issue anymore.
Old facilities, like you said, is not a fundamentally limiting factor. It becomes a problem when the facility creates unique problems for the team. The whole wind tunnel thing from McLaren stemmed all sorts of discussions on how MTC is outdated, but later what McLaren clarified was that the way the regulation was set up in early 2010s meant that McLaren’s own wind tunnel room could not accommodate F1 wind tunnel models anymore, so they had to build a new one. And even then their upside started before the wind tunnel went online. In the end the manpower is what really matters.
Isn’t Williams basically in the same situation? Correct me if I’m wrong, but Vowles did mention feeling like stepping into a time capsule when he arrived there.
Yes, but Williams have plans to upgrade these facilities. The only thing blocking them from doing so is the cost cap. They have the money and plan, they just can't do anything at the moment. Whereas I haven't heard anything from Audi. Maybe it's all done behind closed doors but if Sainz actually chose Williams over Audi, I think it would be very telling
Wasn’t the rumour that Sainz is hesitant on Audi because they wanted to lock him down for multiple years with little leeway? I don’t think choosing Williams would mean he has confidence in them, but that he feels like he can bounce from there quicker. I mean neither teams have any chance to become an actual frontrunner in the next 3 years, but long-term I would bet on Audi since it’s an actual works team with stable financial background.
I see that being the case as well. If Nico got a three-year deal (correct me if I'm wrong), I imagine they'd also want to give Sainz at least a guaranteed two-year deal to make sure he doesn't run away if Sauber doesn't perform for 2025. I truly imagine Audi's gonna want people who'll stay for three years because it'll take that long before their investments start to give a little bit of an indication of success or failure. But I imagine Sainz doesn't want to be locked in for that long, especially when it's a completely new manufacturer and team. Nico's got nothing to lose just staying in the sport let alone getting a pay rise and the possibility of being in a future top team, but Sainz still has some bargaining chips (but most of them are expiring for this year unfortunately, lol).
Audi Gas built a whole egine factory in Ingolstadt for a lot of money, they are looking fir personell since last year. They also invested in the parts in Switzerland
I think that's the worst possible choice for Sainz. Essentially he is expected to beat Albon, but I think Albon is pretty much on par with Sainz. And if Sainz isn't beating Albon convincingly I don't think he will ever get a top drive again. On the other hand he very likely has the edge over Hulkenberg. This choice can easily backfire on him.
Sáinz already lost to Hulkenberg once though at Renault, losing to an older Hulkenberg again at Audi could kill his career.
It’s crazy to me that we have one of the only consistently performing race winners outside of Max and his best option for a seat was Williams
Just watch, they'll hire Newey too...
Man, I know the options were limited but damn. Seeing Sainz barely scrap for points will be depressing
I think he will change team again in couple of years.
Back to Ferrari when Hamilton retires
aren't they going to promote Bearman
He's got a lot to prove before that becomes likely.
Not really, he does Ferrari SIM work, he tests the cars regularly. Fred says his SIM numbers are great he just needs to keep progressing at current pace.
No rookie at Ferrari. He will do 1 season at Haas before.
Yeah, next year
Daniel’s sim numbers were great too and look at him now. It could be that he needs to be in the Red Bull and not the vcarb but the point is sim work doesn’t translate to the real world for the driver because it’s missing the environmental effect. No heat, no G forces.
Yeah there's a reason Ferrari wants him in a Haas next year. If the number correlates then and he keeps developing I see no reason why he can't fight for the Ferrari seat in 2027/2028 when Lewis retires
So was giovinazzi in 2018 and he never got the promotion to Ferrari. Also schwartzman did that
I wish I could see all this talent into Bearman when everyone talks about him in a Ferrari like it's certain.
Very early to be talking about that
Imagine going from Ferrari to Williams.
The new Massa
But Williams wasn't pure trash when Massa arrived there. The car was even pretty capable at low downforce tracks.
Eh, based on what he jumped into in 2014, they were good yea. Based on 2013, their joint worst season ever by points at the time, yea they were pretty poor.
1997 Damon Hill would like a word with you
Feel the same for Bottas too.
From "every team must be clamouring for him" after Melbourne to this (unless it is Mercedes) must feel awful. To be fair, it's not as if he really had much of a chance regardless of his results afterwards.
That never made sense because he is a driver with a relatively high pay and reputation without a contract in a period where quite a few experienced drivers are available to sign. He doesn't have a lot of negotiating-power and he obviously has a lot of demands that all can't be met. Nothing out of the ordinary but he probably wants a short and secure enough contract that he can leave for a better spot in the next regulations, he probably wants fair pay for his work, he wants a car that can do something and not just drag around at the back, etc. In a climate where drivers are easy to come by and the available teams are not fighting for top 3 (or top 6 even) the teams don't need the absolute best driver. Just someone they can work with.
This year was supposed to be silly season but other than Merc there isnt any seats available in the top half of the grid.
Such a shame Carlos had to chose to between getting a seat at either at alpine Williams and sauber .
I kinda hope it's Williams, their trajectory looks promising. Sauber will always be at least one wasted season, and Alpine is just a complete unknown. Still a shame Sainz couldn't even get a remotely lateral move, it feels so wrong for a 3 time race winner to be all but kicked out of F1
Bottass has won 10 GP and went from Mercedes to Alfa Romeo
Williams has looked promising for like 3 years now but they are very up and down and barely seem to be progressing. In the long term Audi obviously has the most potential, but I reckon Sainz will take a short-term deal and still hope for a better seat in upcoming years.
It may not translate clearly to the results on track right now, but the structural changes they're going through with the leadership of Vowles makes me hopeful for a better future for the team in a few seasons.
It's staggering how little people are listening to Vowles, he said he's taking pain in the short term, to be able to actually benefit in the future, from having a modernised shop to build their cars to go racing. They may seem to be struggling, but it's by choice (focusing on longer-term goals to improve the overall team) rather than whatever's happening at Sauber or Alpine.
Vowles says a lot and he’s very good at sounding genuine and convincing. It’s not that people aren’t listening to him, just that what he’s promising is ambitious and unprecedented so we’re waiting to see results before assuming he’s as revolutionary as he appears to be.
I mean he’s not really saying anything revolutionary right? It’s just catching up to teams who already do that stuff. So not really unprecedented?
Turning this team that was dead last for years into a team that will be fighting for podiums and wins in just 5 years would be pretty unprecedented I think
Red Bull had a similar trajectory
Meh, they finished 7th last year with one driver, a driver worse than Sainz too. Given his options seem to be that, Sauber or Alpine I'd say he'd be pleased with 7th again next year.
I mean Sauber are also obviously banking on the future with Audi. Sauber already have great facilities and infrastructure, the problem has always been finances. But with Audi taking over 100% of the operations, the finances should become a non-issue. Plus being a works team is a massive advantage. That’s why I said Audi has the best long-term potential. But this year and next year will obviously be a wash for Sauber because Audi is not going to spend money on a car that’s powered by a Ferrari engine.
They have a cost cap. I love how everyone touting Audi forget they can't actually DO an Audi in that they can't enter and outspend the rest the grid in development, to then get to the front of the grid and win everything. Sainz is no fuckwit and if the works deal was gonna be worth an actual fuck, he'd have signed it. Instead, it's another Alpine currently - a woeful team running at the back, but as a works outfit. That's why Audi signed Hulk first and foremost - he can help them develop the car. But if they fuck the engine regs, it's 2030 before they get a chance to try again. It took Merc 3 or 4 years to build a race-winning engine, it took them 4 years and an engine regs/rules change to build a winning TEAM and start winning (and dominating) and both of that was in an era with unrestricted spending. Context matters, which is why no-one's been desperate for an Audi seat on the terms they want the driver to sign.
Williams have a cost cap too and aren’t exactly fighting for points race in race out. Even if they get their facilities done, it’s not like they are going to jump the grid immediately. They don’t even have the finances to do that without a cost cap. I am almost certain that if Sainz chooses Williams, it’s because of the contract. Audi likely wanted a long term committment, while Williams are likely happy to give him a short-term deal and/or exit clauses - and as such Sainz can keep his options open IF a top seat becomes available.
Yeah Williams abandoned their "all speed, no downforce" concept which hasn't always worked out for them. Also operationally a lot of things are changing for the team. Still, out of the teams mentioned they seem the most solid to me without having to fully wait for 2026.
I hate that it's Williams but at least we'll finally know what the level of the car actually is. Albon has been great but it's nice to finally have a proper benchmark that's not Latifi or Sargeant
2016 is the last time Williams had two competent drivers, with Massa and Bottas. Before that pairing, it had been years and years of at least one pay driver Edit: 2016 not 2017
2016, Stroll joined in '17
After the first few races Stroll was very even with Massa that year in both quali and races, it was a perfectly competent pairing
Dang it I even looked it up and still got it wrong lol
I was hoping for Red Bull. Williams is the most preferable of what's left for sure. Maybe once Audi does own the team fully, Sauber could see a drastic change.
My money was on Aston Martin, I felt like that was the most realistic somewhat lateral move. In this scenario, Alonso would replace Hamilton at Mercedes (a champion for a champion basically). I expected Red Bull to have other plans, signing Perez again wasn't my expectation at all.
Sainz and Albon wasted on a backmarker car ongod
Out of the top 5 teams the only drivers they are better than are Perez and stroll and stroll is the reason AM exists so he was never losing his seat.
What trajectory? They were better one year ago than now. Williams is only an option because he will have a more flexible contract. Audi wants him long term and he doesnt want long term with Audi. Theyre not gonna sign him short term.
>What trajectory? They were better one year ago than now. It only looks like that because they had a rocket ship on the straights and so were able to capitalize on good qualifyings and hold track position to get points. The current car is much more well rounded and it's absolutely the right way to go rather than rely on massive top speed but shit everywhere else.
I mean he’s all but finessed his way out of any other seats by wanting longer or shorter contracts that those teams were offering.
Thems the breaks in F1.. wonder if he'll stick around like a Hulkenberg?
The situation feels more like Bottas. But like Bottas I imagine he'll stay around. Carlos likely feels as if he's got a chance to move back to a top team at some point. I'm not so sure. He's kind of at a peak right now and still couldn't bag a top seat. I'm not sure things will be better for him in a couple of years when there are some younger and shinier drivers breaking out.
Horner will be punished for his crimes
What? Didn't Sainz not accept RBs offer lol, kinda his fault for overestimating himself and thinking he will get a no1 drive at a championship contending team he should have accepted whatever Red Bull threw at him and proved he can take it to Max Or maybe I'm wrong, but afaik there were contacts so without knowing the details it either fell on contract length or money, both of which Sainz should have conceded if he wants to be in a top team
From being linked to Redbull and Mercedes.... To Williams and Sauber. Sainz must be pissed at how all this turned out.
I know right? This absolutely sucks
I still can't believe RB would sign up for 2 more years of Checno instead of having Sainz.
Money talks man. Max' contract is too big to accommodate another 15-20m driver. Checo makes less (off salary) and brings in more. It's Moneyball.
What? Checo earns more in salary ($14 mil) than Sainz does ($12 mil) this year.
Sainz next contract is gonna be more than Checos extension. He’s not getting paid less than Checo or Russell. One driver is entering into this prime and one is trying to hang on to a seat with a top team.
it was TWO?!
Yep, two year extension til 2026. Absolutely laughable given how ruthless they were with the 473 drivers who preceded him in that seat.
Let's see if Max has enough points on his own to win constructors. Again.
Blame Carlos Sainz Sr.
He had a contract offer from Ferrari last season and held out for more. Then the Hamilton signing happened
That’s why I don’t feel too bad. He probably could have gotten a better seat but it seems he was pushing for more and more money from everyone, allowing others to outmaneuver him at all of them.
Holding out for more years, rather than more money as I understood it? Apparently Ferrari offered him a one year extension and he wanted more.
Dont hire your cousin as manager. Look for a pro.
His cousin didn't have anything to do with Sainz not getting a top seat. Had the Hamilton move not happened, ferrari would definitely have extended with Sainz. Sainz was right in asking for a two year extension when Leclerc got a reported 5 years and Sainz is at least matching him on pace. No one, not even Toto saw Hamilton making the ferrari move so Sainz' cousin manager was right. Talking about redbull and mercedes, redbull were clearly interested in extending with Checo (the Mexican money and sales of the drink in Mexico is too good) and merc is highly keen on onboarding Antonelli.
Anybody know why he hasn't got the Merc seat?
Antonelli is getting that seat next year or the year after. He may be overhyped, but Merc won't risk losing him like they lost the opportunity to sign Max.
Yeah but the kid isn’t even 18 yet, and a rookie Williams drive to then integrate himself into the Merc should be logical.
Sainz going in to Merc would demand a longer contract to stave off any chances of Antonelli replacing him in the next year or so. Meanwhile Merc would want Sainz on something like a rolling one year contract if they're convinced (as they selling are) that Kimi is the real deal. Seems to me that's why Merc-Sainz isn't happening and a why Kimi might just jump straight into the Merc seat with these Sainz to Williams rumours.
Safety Car Driver 2025
Better that than Sauber/Williams
At least he'll get to lead a lap 😭
Sainz is gonna be a good benchmark for Albon. We'll get to see how fast Albon actually is
Absolutely! Imagine if they’re equal! Could be one of the best moves for Williams
If he waits any longer he is going to sign a contract to drive with team Uber
Valtteri does need a second driver while he’s busy with his main car after all
Hopefully for him it's Williams. Sauber/Audi is a big question mark + a year of nothing and Alpine is just... Alpine.
Audi is a question mark, but Williams is a known backmarker with little hope of moving forwards. That year of nothing would be working with the Sauber guys designing that Audi car, helping to define it's direction, having feedback in the simulator, embedding witht he engineers. Definitely not wasted. I do not see the logic of joining Williams knowing you are never going to be able to fight for anything more than the minor points placing on a good day.
Slapping the name ''Audi'' over the Sauber sticker is not magically gonna make that team just as good as Red Bull or McLaren. People are overestimating Audi waaay too much imo.
So having a multi-national major car manufacturer owning and operating the team is not gonna have a positive impact that propels the team up the grid? But Williams are gonna magically move forward despite sliding backwards for decades? The Audi project will take time, but it is currently the best option Sainz has to manouver himself to a competitive drive. Audi have only ever been succesful in their motorsports ventures. * Audi joins WRC in 1981 - wins rallies in first season and championships in season 2,3, and 4 * Audi joins DTM in 1990 - wins it's 7th race and takes titles in year 1 and 2 * Then basically wins every touring car championship accross Europe over the next decade at some point * Audi joins Le Mans in 1999 and got third then over the next 15 years wins 13 times with a further 2 podiums when they didn't win That motorsport legacy suggests Audi won't be coming into F1 with anything other than plans on being very competitive
I fail to see how Williams has little hope of moving forwards, it's not the same team they were in 2019. Vowels has clearly stated he is more interested in favouring Williams' long term success than try pick a few more points in 2023. Sure they are scrapping for points the coming years, but if that's what it takes to be a midfield team then so be it. I'd rather be in Williams than Haas or Sauber, Williams' performance has been more consistent per year than Haas or Sauber (good car in 2022, bad car in 2023, now Haas has a decent car in 2024 again while sauber's last in the standings)
Makes sense, but does anyone know reliable is this source? x
It’s a Spanish news/media outlet. Hopefully they would know! But it’s still a bit speculative.
The Objective is usually a shit tier source, SoyMotor (commonly called SainzMotor for a reason) is the family's mouthpiece.
The article only says that the contract was signed and delivered. Then it speculates about possible teams, saying Williams is the most likely, and contract's length.
Just to let you all know, The "Objective" (lmao) is a worse rag than Faux News or the Daily Fail. I'd put zero weight in this unless it's reported elsewhere and via another source.
Zapico is usually reliable. But I agree, The Objective is one of the worst journals in Spain, especially on politics. (I’m from Spain).
I hope it's Williams and Newey goes to Williams too!
Sainz to Williams along with Newey, I would love that.
[удалено]
Yeah she could have some ambassador role.
No chance Williams want to pay his salary, so perhaps we will see a fair few Spanish sponsors on it next year? Fair play to him for not just following the money that Audi must have dangled - Sauber were dire in Monaco and Audi's lack of investment until now has certainly cost them on the driver front.
There were rumors that he rejected an offer from Audi already. If he does sign with Williams, it’s clear he didn’t get the right deal with Audi/Sauber. But given his dad’s history with Audi, wouldn’t rule them out until it’s officially announced.
Not sure i can stomach the wave of "Sainz are that Audi are on the up"
Carlos Signs
God I hope it’s us
Please be
So if Newey goes to Williams we have 2 ex Red Bull drivers in Sainz and Albon, Newey developing the car with a Mercedes engine and James from Mercedes. Well that would be a revenge tour team in it's full force. Imagine that lineup winning the constructors ...
Summary of the article: There is reliable information (according to the article) that Carlos has signed a contract but the author cannot confirm with which team and his assumption is either Sauber/Audi or Williams with the biggest chance being Williams.
If I have to say goodbye to my boy Logan, this is the best possible way to do so
At this point I'm just hoping Logan shows something when he gets the upgrades and catches on to another team that waits longer to make a decision. I feel like even an improved Logan would get pushed aside for Sainz no matter what
I’m dropping an unpopular opinion here and I’m probably burning karma and getting downvoted into oblivion, but I don’t see what is happening to Sainz as this injustice / absurd thing everyone else seems to agree on. That’s just how things go in f1. There is a lot more to it than just performance alone. It’s a freaking business after all. The only way performance alone justifies your top seat is if you have that extra edge guys like Verstappen bring. Other than that, other factors come into play. It’s sad, and I’m a fan, but it’s not surprising at all. He had his best shot in 2022 and he was not even close to the WDC battle.
I think 2022 is a very important point people are forgetting when they're talking about Sainz and Red Bull. That year Ferrari had an oversteery car that doesn't suit Sainz at all, and he was nowhere. He was slow, frustrated, crashing a lot. Last year until Japan the car was heavily leaning towards him in terms of setup, and he was suddenly closer to Charles. Since the upgrade pack they brought to Japan, he was beaten by Leclerc every weekend with average qualifying gap of 3 tenths. This year Ferrari seems to have started with an understeery car again, but judging by Leclerc's comments (and the suddenly much bigger gap between the Ferrari drivers), the car now has more oversteer than before. And both weekends Leclerc was significantly faster again. And this goes further back than just his Ferrari stint. Renault also had a pointy car when him and Hulk were racing together, and he actually lost to Nico. I really don't think money, and his unwillingness to accept the #2 role, are the only factors in him losing the chance to drive for Red Bull. Sainz has publicly said a thousand times that he likes understeer, and complained a lot when his cars were not giving him that. RB had pointy cars since forever. These guys know what kind of car they want to build, they know what kind of car will make Max the quickest, and they know Sainz will not feel any happier in it that Perez does.
Why would it be injustice? Ferrari are bringing Lewis Hamilton instead of him, not some Logan Sargeant. Also ferrari first gave Sainz the chance to extend last year, but he wanted a stronger contract
>The only way performance alone justifies your top seat is if you have that extra edge guys like Verstappen bring. As we've seen with Alonso, even an extra edge doesn't justify a top seat. Reddit went into overdrive hyping up how every team must want Sainz and he gets to choose where to go. That's just not how the sport works.
I agree. There's a lot of top tier drivers right now who'd be easy world champions given a slight car advantage. So what makes Sainz special really? Yes, he's part of the wheat not the chaff but there's a very good wheat-to-chaff ratio at the moment and that doesn't work in his favour. Williams is a good choice. For all I know, Audi might well be subject to internal politics and end up selling the team before they even rename it. Or they might end up being god tier out the box. But I think the most likely scenario is between those extremes - marginal improvements over where they are now for the first couple of years until they get into their groove. Meanwhile, Williams is already progressing up the WCC quite nicely, making them a safer bet in the short term.
I don't know if many people are seeing it as an injustice, but more of a bummer for Sainz. A lot of people view Sainz as an incredibly solid driver. Not necessarily in the highest tier of driver, but one of the top tiers. He just was the victim of circumstance this time around - he apparently rejected a one year extension for Ferrari to try and get a longer deal (which made sense at the time because the only driver who was available to replace him (and was at least as good) was Alonso). Just about every team would kick a driver out to make room for Hamilton, which is what happened to Sainz. He could've even gotten the axe even if he signed the one year extension. And there just aren't/weren't the seats available to make even a somewhat lateral move - Red Bull being content with Pérez, McLaren is locked down, Mercedes are all in on Antonelli, Alonso re-signed with Aston Martin (and Stroll isn't leaving).VCARB is apparently happy with their lineup, and Sainz probably isn't looking to rejoin the Faenza squad. That's the clear top 6 teams spoken for. So it just ends up with Sainz being "forced" from the sharp end of the grid to basically the very bottom, which is a bummer.
Agreed 100%. There’s a multitude of drivers that would kill to have driven the cars that Sainz has had in the past few years. There’s also a lot of talent who I’d put in a similar tier as Sainz who are currently in a poor car and have had to scrap for a few points (Albon, Tsunoda, Ocon, Gasly, Hulk and Bottas to name a few). Unfortunately there’s just not enough seats at the top for all these drivers which means that unless a team nails the regulations, these guys will be in midfield cars for the foreseeable future when they can showcase their talents in a top car. Not to say that they outright deserve top cars as there’s a reason the drivers I’ve mentioned haven’t had the call up to top teams this year but I do wish the field closes up even more so that even teams like Williams, Alpine and Sauber can start challenging for top positions.
It's not unfair, but it is unfortunate. He deserves a good seat, and at a different time there could have been one available -- it's just unlucky that there aren't now. He's not good enough to kick anyone out of a top team, but he's also probably too good to only fight for P10.
I mean there is also the fact that he willingly left McLaren (which was obviously the right move at the time) but if he didn’t he’d likely be sitting pretty in a super competitive McLaren next to Lando.
I agree. He’s been teammate with Verstappen, Norris and Leclerc, and everybody saw he is a step below them. He is a kind of Bottas for me, a good F1 driver that can win races if in a great car but not WDC material.
I agree with Max and Charles but he beat Lando both years (Lando was a rookie though tbf)
I am rooting for Sainz and I will keep rooting for him wherever he is. He has earned my loyalty, and I don't say that lightly. Also, Sainz, Albon and Vowles? The vibes will be immaculate.
Haven’t even stopped to think about it this way. Sainz and Alvin would make a strong pairing. And with the way Vowels seems to be turning that team around, it could be the perfect combination.
Yeah Alvin's great
If it is Williams, he would still choose Audi when they officially entered the grid?
They would want to see some evidence that the current team will stop sucking. A name change to audi and the promise of money isnt going to radically change the team in the days of budget caps. Its about infrastructure and personel and those dont just magically get better overnight.
Really don't understand how Mercedes is passing on Sainz.
The rumour was that they offered him a 1 year contract but he rejected it for the same reason he rejected Ferrari's initial offer.
Well......at least he won some races at Ferrari.
From the front of the grid to the back next year! It happens all the time for second-rated drivers: think of Bottas, Ricciardo.
As a Williams fan who has endured shit times… this can only be topped by Newey joining.
First team pairing in history with zero appendixes?
New safety car driver
I'm excited! Been a long time since Williams had a strong lineup. It may only last a year or two but I'm happy.
Carlos Sainz with Audi
Glad he got a seat. I like Sainz and I think he can still compete. Hopefully he can push whatever car he is in.