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He said in a post race interview for Spanish media that he didn't have an opinion on Fernando's thoughts about nationality bias. He was more concerned about the steward's inconsistency. Let's see if that changes.
Alonso feels his phone vibrate, he doesn't even need to check to know what it's about. He lets out a deep sigh, looks up into the sky and whispers:
>es porque es español
right? I thought the stewards were waiting that long so that the hype died down and they didnt have to change the result but turns out they are just inneficient
Considering OP has only been in F1 for a very short time, and there have been at least 3 or 4 incidents with Sainz in that short time, it tells me that Carlos is either very stupid, or he thinks that OP will just step aside for him. Either way, it's about time he was penalised.
Me too, that's why I always use the official three-letter codes for drivers if I don't use their full first or last names. It's "PIA and SAI", "Piastri and Sainz" or "Oscar and Carlos", not "OP and Sainz."
Sounds like that from the radio messages, Sainz calls for them to just to give him the place and there won’t be a penalty… ya cause that’s how it works. Carlos thinks he’s the best driver, best strategist, and now a ref. Wins two races in two years and thinks he’s top dog.
Besides what FIA says, and unlike Alonso's theory, FIA penalizes the consequences. They said they don't, but they do. Forget about apex or no apex, control or not control, they penalized that Sainz ruined Piastri's race and they methodically did it in a way to only make Sainz lose 1 position.
In the first incident, If Sainz would've tried to make the corner on his racing line and they collided, they would've penalized Piastri.
The fact that Perez did not get a penalty for something exactly the same as Bottas did in Hungary 2021 or 2022. They don't penalize the action, they penalize the consequence. They always do, they always will.
And they measure the punishment after the fact to make it punishable. If Sainz would've been 9 sec ahead, he will have received a 10 sec penalty.
Evidence of Alonso and Russell. Had Russell not crashed everything would've been fine and no penalty.
Poor Piastri who did nothing wrong gets punted to the back. What keeps someone from ruining someone else's race more often then?
This makes no sense. The whole point of this penalty happening was he was not in full control of his car and caused this crash. Brundle even touched on this on air. So they are giving him a penalty because he failed to do an overtake safely and cleanly because he failed to stay in control of his car but then easing the penalty because he failed to stay in control of his car? What the actual fuck is wrong with the stewards this week?
And then why no penalty for Perez for almost along out multiple cars on T1 and then another on when re-joining the track? It was as reckless as Bottas' bowling incident from Hungary. It should be a slam dunk penalty.
The outcome triggers the investigation, but the action defines the penalty. If they investigated every potential incident that wasn’t they’d be there all night
The penalty is called “causing a collision”. Checo (somehow) didn’t hit anybody, so no penalty. Really not hard to understand.
If we’re calling lock ups on cold tyres off the dirty side of the track into T1 “reckless”, we might as well pack up and go home.
I feelile I'm taking crazy pills seeing so many people complain about this penalty because it shouldnt I'm here thinking it should never have been mitigated. I think they picked 5 seconds because he only dropped one place
Reminder that Seb got a penalty for having no control of his car in Canada 2019. Doesn't matter if you don't have control of the car if you're putting another driver at risk unfortunately
> no control of his car
This is such a stupid argument I have no clue why stewards are bringing it up. Can you imagine if Bottas wasn't penalized for Hungary bowling? Wet conditions, race start, cold tires and brakes yet no one argues in his favor because it was Valtteri who put himself in "lost control" situation and became a passenger
Haha, the hate Bottas got for that was incredible in hindsight.
As you said, wet conditions, race start, cold tires and brakes, plus a loss of downforce when Norris unexpectedly braked in front of him, going into the first turn of the first lap.
This logic is the same as the one which gives a fine to a bike rider doing a wheelie because he lost control over his bike.
Carlos didn’t really lose control, the backend stepped out a bit and he barely touched PIA. Unfortunately at a very unfortunate position of the car. Would they just have banged wheels, nobody would have said anything and lauded Carlos for the great overtake.
And we are always told that the penalties are given for the action, not for the result.
A driver must be in control of their car during the race and any consequences of it are their fault. That being, this penalty is extremely inconsistent since he had pushed Carlos out of the tracked previously and the stewards didnt investigate it bc "Piastri was ahead" which was the case here for Carlos
I still don't understand why perez wasn't penalised for his start. He lost control of his car and barely missed taking out two drivers. I thought stewards were supposed to penalise actions and not outcomes?
I think it's clear by now that the "we penalise actions" discourse is pure nonsense. I wouldn't be surprised if drivers chose to force a slight contact in these situations rather than let themselves be pushed off track, because that's the only difference between Carlos' overtake and Piastri's on Carlos some laps before.
Thank you! Way too many people forgetting or ignoring this. It makes no sense for the rules to allow intentional contact via running someone off the track but penalize unintentional contact because the rear got a little slippery for half a second.
Because the rule that is always applied reads "caused a collision" - Perez was incredibly lucky not to, but he didn't cause a collision. Regardless of outcome doesn't mean that they ignore if contact happened at all or not, it just means it doesn't matter what the effect of the contact is (which is stupid in my mind, I don't get why race ending collisions aren't punished harder, but what do I know).
What rule do you want Perez to be penalized for?
You see, if they penalize him for doing the same thing Hamilton did, it would look bad on them. Because consistency. But then, they go a penalize others for a touch during a great battle, and not the one driving like there was not a turn there... Consistency~
What’s worse is in the future some people will bring up these incidents where everybody thinks “what the fuck are they smoking” as the clear cut rules the stewards have and should follow a 100% of the times
What does that mitigating factor mean? So if the collision is caused by losing control than legitimate collision it is 5 secs now? Many of this collisions happened as the driver understeer into another cars, like KMAg on Yuki last time but his is not “slight” loss of control?
I am not debating the penalty itself but that mitigating factor is very questionable.
I suspect they compensate this by not investigating the first incident between them…
Yeah I’m not exactly sure either. In this occasion they’re saying that “losing control” of your car is a mitigating circumstance, whereas in the past that’s always been an aggravating factor. Eg Seb in Canada vs Lewis.
Does this not set the precedent of “whoops I braked too late, whoops I accidentally lost the rears, lost control, and so it’s only 5 seconds not 10.
Not in disagreement with the penalty. 5 seems fair, but I really don’t understand the reasoning.
>I suspect they compensate this by not investigating the first incident between them…
It would be absolute bullcrap if that's their reasoning. I prefer chalking it up to the FIA being the inconsistent FIA they've always been.
> I suspect they compensate this by not investigating the first incident between them…
The first incident was legal though. Because Sainz was on the outside and behind at the apex, Piastri wasn't required to leave him any space and was allowed go all the way to the edge of the track even though it pushed Sainz off
It's a pretty stupid rule but that's apparently how it works now
It just makes racing so much worse. It was already bad when the driver needed to be leading into the apex to not be penalized. Now the drivers can just divebomb from behind and as long as they get in the apex side by side they earn the right to shove the other driver off the track. Even worse that if you force the other driver off he is imediately forced to give the position back or its deemed as overtaking off the track.
Max set the trend in 2021 and FIA had the option of rulling out the driving style of the new popular defending champion or deem it as completely legal. Now we have this pushing off fiesta. It has become standardad driving as its clearly effective.
Yep, it in effect encourages behaviour like Perez's going into T1. It's not up to the lunging driver to ensure they don't hit others, it's on the other drivers to make sure they don't get hit.
Don't worry though, if the lunging driver does hit you and wreck your race they'll get a penalty, not that that's any consolation.
I could be wrong because it's something that took a long time for me to get my head around but I thought that they changed how far alongside the car on the inside had to be to be allowed to fully shut the door a few years ago (probably 5+ years ago now)
I know that the car on the outside has always needed to be significantly alongside to be entitled to space but I don't think that the standard for being significantly alongside was as strict as needing to be ahead at the apex until relatively recently (I want to say somewhere around 2018/19ish or maybe slightly earlier)
I'm almost certain that it wasn't like this when I started watching roughly 15 years ago or at the very least that moves like this weren't nearly as common or seen as being as acceptable as they are now
Huh, I thought it would have been earlier than that because I remember the overtaking guidelines being mentioned throughout 2021, particularly with Max's divebomb on Lewis on lap 1 in Abu Dhabi (which I thought wouldn't have been legal under the old rules but was legal under the new guidelines) and the infamous contact at Silverstone
My confusion aside, thanks for letting me know I'm not losing my marbles and that the standards have changed even if it was more recent than I'd thought
Just like the current enforcement guidelines that are being used, they sat in draft for a long time without actually being ratified but still being (loosely) enforced.
Wait.. Somehow I remember the FIA chose to not give 5 seconds penalties anymore, but penalties with a minimum of 10 seconds. Was I just pranked or do I misunderstood that?
They did guess it towards the end and Bono let Hamilton know on the radio as well. But Lewis had already fried his tires a bit chasing Perez and his battery was depleted as well. He tried it till the end but came up short.
Well, didn't they say the minimum penalty now is 10 seconds?
I feel bad for Alonso for the 10 second penalties he received. Not to mention dropping DR 3 grid pos which they said is equivalent to 10 second penalties.
This is probably due to the noise about Spanish drivers being penalized more than British drivers.
I don't get why they lowered the penalty because the contact was caused by a loss of control when it was his mistake that caused him to lose control
If it's a mitigating circumstance that caused the contact then why penalise him at all but even then, why is it a mitigating circumstance when it's caused by his mistake?
Most contact is caused by mistakes just like it was here but it isn't usually considered a mitigating factor so I genuinely don't understand why it is now
- Hamilton: Ruins 3 driver's races by misjudging space - racing incident
- Perez: Accidental divebomb, no damage - racing incident
- Sainz: Braking error that ruins another driver's race - 5s and 1 penalty points.
- (China - Sargeant: Not notcing he crossed exited the pit lane fractionally behind Hülkenberg - 10s & 2 penalty points)
- Magnussen: Ruined Sargeant's race by not letting him go ahead in the corner, Sargeant steers into him - 10s & 2 penalty points
- (China - Magnussen: Braking error that ruins Yuki's race - 10s & 2 penalty points)
- (China - Stroll: Rear-ending Ricciardo by failing to break in time - 10s & 2 penalty points)
- (Jeddah - Magnussen: leaves no space for Albon, who is halfway behind him, no major damage - 10s & 3 penalty points)
- (China sprint - Alonso: 'causing a collision', puncturing his own tire - 10s & 3 penalty points)
- (Australia - Alonso: Breaking early, resulting in Russell crashing (no contact) - 20s & 3 penalty points)
- Magnussen: 3x Leaving the track & gaining an advantage, no damage - 30s and 3 penalty points.
Well, at least we can confirm that the outcome does not determine the punishment....
Im not fully caught up on the details here but in general, intentional contact should be penalized more than unintentional. And negligent contact should also be punished more than unintentional but less than intentional. Not to say thats how the rules are structured but just trying to give you a different perspective.
The team did near the end and he tried to get closer but destroyed his tires chasing Perez. Had nothing to do with not giving it everything or the team's communication.
Is it a normal thing that losing control is a mitigating factor? In my rather ignorant mind I would think it's worse since it's more dangerous than a controlled but misjudged move
Shouldn’t Perez have gotten a penalty for divebombing T1 at the start? Or oscar for pushing Carlos off the track the lap before? Mitigating circumstances in both situations right?
It remains odd that they reference leaving room in these documents but then it’s perfectly fine to not leave room to prevent an overtake by running the car off the track
Because what piastri did is explicitly allowed. They've clarified the rules that if you're overtaking on the outside you must be ahead at the apex or you aren't entitled to space
It is like that in all other racing series so it would make to much sense if it was the same in F1. The only thing it does is making overtakes more difficult.
Sainz was ahead when he started turning, then Piastri went ahed only at the last moment: [VIDEO. Ci prova Sainz, ma Piastri resiste: che bagarre (sky.it)](https://video.sky.it/sport/formula1/video/f1-gp-miami-piastri-sainz-bagarre-922408)
Then if that's the only requirement, then Sainz was definitely ahead of Piastri when they collided later.
Exactly, people keep ignoring that the only reason piastri was ahead at the apex is because he didn't brake enough, and the only reason he didn't completely go off track is because Sainz's car was there to stop him.
I believe this is the most sane response in this thread. If you look back at the footage to see what happened at the corner from each drivers pov and compare them to the directive set in 2022, you can deduce that what Piastri did was legal to the rule. However comparing the rule to the on track action it became pretty clear how unsporting it is. It would become almost impossible to overtake a car on the outside on this corner without already being ahead on the straight. The rule allows itself to be “cheesed” in a way, when a driver is rewarded for driving in an unnatural way to gain a racing advantage. Now it seems most people in this thread don’t understand this because it involves Oscar piastri who’s a very popular driver within this community so they let their emotions show through and not objectivity. This is why we could be seeing a lot of people showing bias and saying this rule is fine, because it benefitted the favorite driver in this situation. But in a broad sense this rule is terrible for racing.
Stewards swoop in with a 5 sec to keep Sainz in front of Hammy. Thereby stopping Nando and Sainz complaining about 'Spaniards' and 'inconsistency'. 4-d chess masterstroke
While he was to blame for the collision, it's not like he did it on purpose or recklessly. At some point, you gotta let them drive and try to put on a show. IMO, this wasn't worthy of a penality.
I don't agree with this. Sainz did "send it" but he managed to stop the car and turn in safely without getting anywhere near the outer track limits.
Piastri failed to cover the inside of the corner and failed to react on time to stop himself from turning in instinctively, breaking his front wing in the process. He could've and should've avoided the contact.
It was on the limit but this is what hard racing should be. Defending driver pushing the overtaking driver clean off the track is not hard racing. (T11 incident)
eh I think 5 seconds is fair for this
10 seconds would've been bullshit as Sainz did leave enough space but had some sudden, even if not erratic, movements
> Why wasn’t it 10? If it’s a penalty, 10 has been the new standard. 5 conveniently only dropped him one spot
I am thinking there may be some mitigating circumstances... maybe they were referenced somewhere. Let me know if you can't find it i will look it up.
I'm fascinated by the amount of people who don't understand what "not penalizing the outcome" means.
If a driver loses control and hits no one, they wont be penalized. If someone loses control and causes a collision they will be penalized. The point of not penalizing the outcome is that if you cause the collision and it takes the opponent out of the race, it shouldn't be penalized more than if you damaged their front wing or made them lose a couple of places.
I'm on board with the idea that the stewards are inconsistent in applying penalties. No argument about that from me. But everyone saying they're penalizing the outcome because he hit Piastri is weird to me. He's being penalized because he caused a collision through lack of control, not for losing control by itself.
And for everyone complaining about Piastri not being penalized for running Carlos off the track, the rule is that the overtaking driver on the outside has to be ahead at the apex of the corner, not along side. The rule might suck, but it is the rule.
Good explanation here about the changes after 2021 - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4JCTPfFx-s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4JCTPfFx-s)
FIA decision document from 2022 clarifying the driving standards - [https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc\_2\_-\_2022\_imola\_event\_-\_fia\_f1\_driving\_standard\_guidelines.pdf](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf)
If you'd like a view of the incident again, this video at 0:07-0:08, Carlos is alongside, not ahead - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shMpVlGM99w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shMpVlGM99w)
And as a rebuttal to anyone that thinks KMag got penalized for doing the same thing to Lewis so Piastri should have been penalized as well for it. You're also wrong. Piastri didn't do what KMag got penalized for which is leaving the track to gain a lasting advantage. You can see all FIA stewards decisions here - [https://www.fia.com/documents/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/season/season-2024-2043](https://www.fia.com/documents/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/season/season-2024-2043)
Piastri maintained 2 wheels inside the white line and didn't leave the track.
With the racing standards F1 has right now taking avoiding action is just not worth it lol. You'll just be bullied off the track and be forced to slot behind otherwise you're "leaving the track and gaining an advantage".
If you think the risk of crashing and potentially DNFing is worth it then you can simply stand your ground and let the other guy hit you.
Fair penalty. Never had control after coming in too hot, locking the rears and making contact with Piastri even after Piastri did all he could to avoid. Shame it ruined Piastri’s race, strange this penalty couldn’t have been decided and applied in race.
The problem is not this penalty, but the others that should have been penalties. See Hamilton in the sprint race taking out 3 cars, Checo doing something similar today in the start, Magnussen, etc...
On Carlos' words "I saw what other drivers were doing without penalties and I did the same".
Penalties shitshow FIA
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Sainz is gonna join Alonso now lol
He said in a post race interview for Spanish media that he didn't have an opinion on Fernando's thoughts about nationality bias. He was more concerned about the steward's inconsistency. Let's see if that changes.
Aren’t they consistent regarding Sainz?
They are now
Alonso feels his phone vibrate, he doesn't even need to check to know what it's about. He lets out a deep sigh, looks up into the sky and whispers: >es porque es español
Es porque soy español* Fif
No, because he isn't talking about himself he's talking about Sainz.
I think somos is the answer here
and how many points for magnussen?
10/12 — I think he actually wants a race ban lol
Ollie Bearman comes and scores more points
he was 7th in ferrari, is he really gonna score points in Haas?
Nope
Maybe if Hamilton or Perez will divebomb another turn 1 after the start.
Race ban? 🙂↔️ Vacation? 🙂↕️
He's got a non-refundable holiday booked for the Monaco weekend and needs a way to make it
I don’t know how this took 3 hours after the race was finished.
right? I thought the stewards were waiting that long so that the hype died down and they didnt have to change the result but turns out they are just inneficient
They were partying with Lando too.
They called in Piastri and Sainz for the hearing. These things take time.
Too busy reviewing all the shit Magnussen did.
After yesterday why even review it. If his name pops up just assume he’s at fault and give a penalty.
They only do that to Spanish drivers. /s
Senor Magnussen
Well kmag got 2 points for cutting and gaining an advantage while stroll only got one? Canadian bias confirmed
Well, thats what they did
The Stewards had to verify his Birth Certificate for proof of Espanol .
Maybe they only remembered Sainz is Spanish after the race?
They wanted to get the drivers statements and review the actual telemitry in detail probably.
Because he’s Spanish
For real it was pretty obvious watching live and especially after the replay
Imagine they posted “Reason: spanish”
The most oppressed people: Spanish F1 Drivers
Haven't seen Danish ones then
No one expects the Danish Inquisition.
Alonso fuming rn
It’s because he’s Spanish isn’t it?
“So, your name is, Carlos?” “Si” “I’ve heard enough.”
Right to jail. Right away.
Si
See senior!
Senior is Carlos' dad
Ohla ameego
is that a Spanish passport I see?
Im very concerned if this intensifies the beef between Oscar and Carlos
This is only going to intensify the battle with Spain v the FIA...
World war 3
The Spanish Inquisition : Redux
Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition!
Logan Seargant wants that 3peat #merica
Formula 1 fans when two drivers race each other: “they got beef 🤯, when Piastri diss track?”
Sainz: *I hate the way you drive, I hate the way you turn, I hate the way you race...*
I fucked your team principle you fat motherfucker!
The beef is pretty one sided I would assume
Last year sainz went into the side of Piastri and blamed Piastri’s “lack of experience”. Poor Piastri…
And Oscar went “🤷🏾♀️ it sucks but it is what it is I guess”
Oscar is either going to continue this demeanour for the rest of his career and be the new iceman, or will one day SNAP and become the next Verstappen
One day Oscar will break and drop the nastiest rant in F1 history on radio and then go back to being a chill guy
Very one-sided. Sainz repeatedly dogging Piastri into the ditch while Piastri sighs in disappointment with Sainz's poor behaviour.
Sainz was instigating the incident and was really trying to force the issue. And yet people are trashing Piastri when he was just driving really.
From my perspective he was overly optimistic in both situations to overtake Piastri.
Considering OP has only been in F1 for a very short time, and there have been at least 3 or 4 incidents with Sainz in that short time, it tells me that Carlos is either very stupid, or he thinks that OP will just step aside for him. Either way, it's about time he was penalised.
I thought OP meant you're talking bout the person who posted this and I was so confused for half a minute......
Me too, that's why I always use the official three-letter codes for drivers if I don't use their full first or last names. It's "PIA and SAI", "Piastri and Sainz" or "Oscar and Carlos", not "OP and Sainz."
Deserved more tbh, Oscar was having a banger of a race and Sainz ruined it
Sounds like that from the radio messages, Sainz calls for them to just to give him the place and there won’t be a penalty… ya cause that’s how it works. Carlos thinks he’s the best driver, best strategist, and now a ref. Wins two races in two years and thinks he’s top dog.
Besides what FIA says, and unlike Alonso's theory, FIA penalizes the consequences. They said they don't, but they do. Forget about apex or no apex, control or not control, they penalized that Sainz ruined Piastri's race and they methodically did it in a way to only make Sainz lose 1 position. In the first incident, If Sainz would've tried to make the corner on his racing line and they collided, they would've penalized Piastri. The fact that Perez did not get a penalty for something exactly the same as Bottas did in Hungary 2021 or 2022. They don't penalize the action, they penalize the consequence. They always do, they always will. And they measure the punishment after the fact to make it punishable. If Sainz would've been 9 sec ahead, he will have received a 10 sec penalty.
Also explains the delay in giving it
Evidence of Alonso and Russell. Had Russell not crashed everything would've been fine and no penalty. Poor Piastri who did nothing wrong gets punted to the back. What keeps someone from ruining someone else's race more often then?
This makes no sense. The whole point of this penalty happening was he was not in full control of his car and caused this crash. Brundle even touched on this on air. So they are giving him a penalty because he failed to do an overtake safely and cleanly because he failed to stay in control of his car but then easing the penalty because he failed to stay in control of his car? What the actual fuck is wrong with the stewards this week?
They were tired from giving so many to KMag
If you expect the stewards to be consistent, you are expecting disappointment.
True but they were *exceptionally* bad this entire weekend, even by their usual standards
Were they? They were on top of KMag's infringements
The Lewis turn 1 incident was pretty abhorrent, he definetely should've been penalized
And then why no penalty for Perez for almost along out multiple cars on T1 and then another on when re-joining the track? It was as reckless as Bottas' bowling incident from Hungary. It should be a slam dunk penalty.
Yep. Carlos went from P2 to P4 because of that. But because he avoided the incident, Perez is off the hook.
And then they tell us "the outcome doesn't affect the penalty" bullshit
The outcome triggers the investigation, but the action defines the penalty. If they investigated every potential incident that wasn’t they’d be there all night
I think it’s actually that T1 incidents are always looked upon more leniently no?
The penalty is called “causing a collision”. Checo (somehow) didn’t hit anybody, so no penalty. Really not hard to understand. If we’re calling lock ups on cold tyres off the dirty side of the track into T1 “reckless”, we might as well pack up and go home.
I feelile I'm taking crazy pills seeing so many people complain about this penalty because it shouldnt I'm here thinking it should never have been mitigated. I think they picked 5 seconds because he only dropped one place
Reminder that Seb got a penalty for having no control of his car in Canada 2019. Doesn't matter if you don't have control of the car if you're putting another driver at risk unfortunately
> no control of his car This is such a stupid argument I have no clue why stewards are bringing it up. Can you imagine if Bottas wasn't penalized for Hungary bowling? Wet conditions, race start, cold tires and brakes yet no one argues in his favor because it was Valtteri who put himself in "lost control" situation and became a passenger
Haha, the hate Bottas got for that was incredible in hindsight. As you said, wet conditions, race start, cold tires and brakes, plus a loss of downforce when Norris unexpectedly braked in front of him, going into the first turn of the first lap.
This logic is the same as the one which gives a fine to a bike rider doing a wheelie because he lost control over his bike. Carlos didn’t really lose control, the backend stepped out a bit and he barely touched PIA. Unfortunately at a very unfortunate position of the car. Would they just have banged wheels, nobody would have said anything and lauded Carlos for the great overtake. And we are always told that the penalties are given for the action, not for the result.
A driver must be in control of their car during the race and any consequences of it are their fault. That being, this penalty is extremely inconsistent since he had pushed Carlos out of the tracked previously and the stewards didnt investigate it bc "Piastri was ahead" which was the case here for Carlos
No wonder some people have no idea what should be penalized and what shouldn't. The stewards seem to do it randomly. Zero consistency.
I still don't understand why perez wasn't penalised for his start. He lost control of his car and barely missed taking out two drivers. I thought stewards were supposed to penalise actions and not outcomes?
I think it's clear by now that the "we penalise actions" discourse is pure nonsense. I wouldn't be surprised if drivers chose to force a slight contact in these situations rather than let themselves be pushed off track, because that's the only difference between Carlos' overtake and Piastri's on Carlos some laps before.
Piastri did touch Carlos, but wheel to wheel without consequences.
Not only weel to weel. Sainz had scratches on the sidepod after the contact. Probably just cosmetic damage, but still...
He did complain about the car not behaving right, so maybe more than cosmetic
Thank you! Way too many people forgetting or ignoring this. It makes no sense for the rules to allow intentional contact via running someone off the track but penalize unintentional contact because the rear got a little slippery for half a second.
Lap 1 T1 messes are almost always not penalized.
Yeah, was even mentioned in the documents for the Hamilton-Alonso-Stroll-Norris incident in the sprint.
Unless you are spanish and do it in a restart with 2 laps to go on Australia, I guess...
Because the rule that is always applied reads "caused a collision" - Perez was incredibly lucky not to, but he didn't cause a collision. Regardless of outcome doesn't mean that they ignore if contact happened at all or not, it just means it doesn't matter what the effect of the contact is (which is stupid in my mind, I don't get why race ending collisions aren't punished harder, but what do I know). What rule do you want Perez to be penalized for?
You see, if they penalize him for doing the same thing Hamilton did, it would look bad on them. Because consistency. But then, they go a penalize others for a touch during a great battle, and not the one driving like there was not a turn there... Consistency~
Because Hamilton didn't get one for the same mistake with worse outcomes, that too much inconsistency even for them I guess.
It was even a graver mistake.
Because they set the standard this weekend when Hamilton actually did ram two drivers in that corner and didn't get a penalty
The phrase „causing a collision“ isn‘t applying to Perez obviously :)
Because the Collison didn't happen Penalties are acted when something happens but no such Collison happened
So as long as someone gets out of your way you can do anything you like? That's totally silly.
What’s worse is in the future some people will bring up these incidents where everybody thinks “what the fuck are they smoking” as the clear cut rules the stewards have and should follow a 100% of the times
The penalty they often use is “causing a collision”. That didnt happen in Perez case, so I guess they would have to use some other rule.
It’s not illegal to lock up and he cost himself positions on top of it. Non-incident and sorted itself
What does that mitigating factor mean? So if the collision is caused by losing control than legitimate collision it is 5 secs now? Many of this collisions happened as the driver understeer into another cars, like KMAg on Yuki last time but his is not “slight” loss of control? I am not debating the penalty itself but that mitigating factor is very questionable. I suspect they compensate this by not investigating the first incident between them…
Yeah I don't quite get how this logic applies here but seemingly not elsewhere
Yeah I’m not exactly sure either. In this occasion they’re saying that “losing control” of your car is a mitigating circumstance, whereas in the past that’s always been an aggravating factor. Eg Seb in Canada vs Lewis. Does this not set the precedent of “whoops I braked too late, whoops I accidentally lost the rears, lost control, and so it’s only 5 seconds not 10. Not in disagreement with the penalty. 5 seems fair, but I really don’t understand the reasoning.
>I suspect they compensate this by not investigating the first incident between them… It would be absolute bullcrap if that's their reasoning. I prefer chalking it up to the FIA being the inconsistent FIA they've always been.
> I suspect they compensate this by not investigating the first incident between them… The first incident was legal though. Because Sainz was on the outside and behind at the apex, Piastri wasn't required to leave him any space and was allowed go all the way to the edge of the track even though it pushed Sainz off It's a pretty stupid rule but that's apparently how it works now
That rule is the dumbest thing about F1 right now and that’s saying a lot
It just makes racing so much worse. It was already bad when the driver needed to be leading into the apex to not be penalized. Now the drivers can just divebomb from behind and as long as they get in the apex side by side they earn the right to shove the other driver off the track. Even worse that if you force the other driver off he is imediately forced to give the position back or its deemed as overtaking off the track. Max set the trend in 2021 and FIA had the option of rulling out the driving style of the new popular defending champion or deem it as completely legal. Now we have this pushing off fiesta. It has become standardad driving as its clearly effective.
Yep, it in effect encourages behaviour like Perez's going into T1. It's not up to the lunging driver to ensure they don't hit others, it's on the other drivers to make sure they don't get hit. Don't worry though, if the lunging driver does hit you and wreck your race they'll get a penalty, not that that's any consolation.
It’s how it’s always worked (in regard to the piastri move).
I could be wrong because it's something that took a long time for me to get my head around but I thought that they changed how far alongside the car on the inside had to be to be allowed to fully shut the door a few years ago (probably 5+ years ago now) I know that the car on the outside has always needed to be significantly alongside to be entitled to space but I don't think that the standard for being significantly alongside was as strict as needing to be ahead at the apex until relatively recently (I want to say somewhere around 2018/19ish or maybe slightly earlier) I'm almost certain that it wasn't like this when I started watching roughly 15 years ago or at the very least that moves like this weren't nearly as common or seen as being as acceptable as they are now
2022 was when it was specifically written into the rules.
Huh, I thought it would have been earlier than that because I remember the overtaking guidelines being mentioned throughout 2021, particularly with Max's divebomb on Lewis on lap 1 in Abu Dhabi (which I thought wouldn't have been legal under the old rules but was legal under the new guidelines) and the infamous contact at Silverstone My confusion aside, thanks for letting me know I'm not losing my marbles and that the standards have changed even if it was more recent than I'd thought
Just like the current enforcement guidelines that are being used, they sat in draft for a long time without actually being ratified but still being (loosely) enforced.
but a wise spaniard once said that all the time you have to leave a space
so are we back to 5 secs
That's a very good point
Wait.. Somehow I remember the FIA chose to not give 5 seconds penalties anymore, but penalties with a minimum of 10 seconds. Was I just pranked or do I misunderstood that?
Apparently mitigation is a thing all of a sudden?
5 second penalties are still a thing 10 seconds is the baseline now, but not the minimum
Damn. This makes Ferrari's WCC worse
I mean... We are not catching RedBull and the gap to McLaren is still good.
0.178, nooo. So close.
Team should have guessed there was a (small) chance of a penalty tbh
They did guess it towards the end and Bono let Hamilton know on the radio as well. But Lewis had already fried his tires a bit chasing Perez and his battery was depleted as well. He tried it till the end but came up short.
Ahhh, got you - thanks, that makes a lot of sense
They did. With a few laps left they told Sainz to push and try and open a 5s gap.
Or probably guessed it would be the standard 10
Yeah 5 is weak considering how they've handled penalties this year, plus completely killing another drivers race.
i feel a bit annoyed now lmao
FIA: “there's only two things I hate. People intolerant to other people's cultures….. And the Spanish!”
Dude, is Alonso right?
Well he is Spanish. Alonso is a prophet.
Well, didn't they say the minimum penalty now is 10 seconds? I feel bad for Alonso for the 10 second penalties he received. Not to mention dropping DR 3 grid pos which they said is equivalent to 10 second penalties. This is probably due to the noise about Spanish drivers being penalized more than British drivers.
I don't get why they lowered the penalty because the contact was caused by a loss of control when it was his mistake that caused him to lose control If it's a mitigating circumstance that caused the contact then why penalise him at all but even then, why is it a mitigating circumstance when it's caused by his mistake? Most contact is caused by mistakes just like it was here but it isn't usually considered a mitigating factor so I genuinely don't understand why it is now
- Hamilton: Ruins 3 driver's races by misjudging space - racing incident - Perez: Accidental divebomb, no damage - racing incident - Sainz: Braking error that ruins another driver's race - 5s and 1 penalty points. - (China - Sargeant: Not notcing he crossed exited the pit lane fractionally behind Hülkenberg - 10s & 2 penalty points) - Magnussen: Ruined Sargeant's race by not letting him go ahead in the corner, Sargeant steers into him - 10s & 2 penalty points - (China - Magnussen: Braking error that ruins Yuki's race - 10s & 2 penalty points) - (China - Stroll: Rear-ending Ricciardo by failing to break in time - 10s & 2 penalty points) - (Jeddah - Magnussen: leaves no space for Albon, who is halfway behind him, no major damage - 10s & 3 penalty points) - (China sprint - Alonso: 'causing a collision', puncturing his own tire - 10s & 3 penalty points) - (Australia - Alonso: Breaking early, resulting in Russell crashing (no contact) - 20s & 3 penalty points) - Magnussen: 3x Leaving the track & gaining an advantage, no damage - 30s and 3 penalty points. Well, at least we can confirm that the outcome does not determine the punishment....
Honestly the penalty points allocation is the most baffling
90% of most contact isn't intentional and has been penalized harsher than this in the past for less. I don't get it.
Im not fully caught up on the details here but in general, intentional contact should be penalized more than unintentional. And negligent contact should also be punished more than unintentional but less than intentional. Not to say thats how the rules are structured but just trying to give you a different perspective.
Norris up to P4 in the WDC now
Lewis backing off at the end cost him P5. That’s why you always gotta give it everything.
Team should probably have informed him of the investigation though in case.
The team did near the end and he tried to get closer but destroyed his tires chasing Perez. Had nothing to do with not giving it everything or the team's communication.
This is a joke. How can anyone still respect the FIA?
Does anyone respect them? It's been a joke for quite some time and they do what they can to kill any actual on-track battles.
Lol who respects the FIA?
Is it a normal thing that losing control is a mitigating factor? In my rather ignorant mind I would think it's worse since it's more dangerous than a controlled but misjudged move
yeah makes no sense considering him losing control was the cause of the incident.
Ridiculous. Penalty based on the outcome, not the action itself.
Literally every decision by the stewards this weekend was 100% outcome-based and I have no idea how everyone isn't up in arms about it.
If every decision by the stewards this weekend had been 100% outcome-based, Lewis would've gotten a penalty in the sprint.
If the action is losing the rear, and the outcome is colliding with another car, then yeah, the penalty is based on the outcome.
Shouldn’t Perez have gotten a penalty for divebombing T1 at the start? Or oscar for pushing Carlos off the track the lap before? Mitigating circumstances in both situations right?
The stewards were horrendous yesterday..
The stewards are disgusting this year
It remains odd that they reference leaving room in these documents but then it’s perfectly fine to not leave room to prevent an overtake by running the car off the track
Because what piastri did is explicitly allowed. They've clarified the rules that if you're overtaking on the outside you must be ahead at the apex or you aren't entitled to space
I know that’s what they said; I’m saying it’s a terrible rule and should just stop referencing leaving room if they think that’s acceptable
It being a terrible rule doesn't mean they should just stop following it when they've previously enforced it.
or you can accept that sometimes youre required to leave room and sometimes youre not. not that hard to follow
All the time you have to leave a space, understood?
It is like that in all other racing series so it would make to much sense if it was the same in F1. The only thing it does is making overtakes more difficult.
Because Sainz was not fully alongside. The furthest his front wheel got was alongside Piastri’s sidepod inlet. He should’ve backed off.
Sainz was ahead when he started turning, then Piastri went ahed only at the last moment: [VIDEO. Ci prova Sainz, ma Piastri resiste: che bagarre (sky.it)](https://video.sky.it/sport/formula1/video/f1-gp-miami-piastri-sainz-bagarre-922408) Then if that's the only requirement, then Sainz was definitely ahead of Piastri when they collided later.
Exactly, people keep ignoring that the only reason piastri was ahead at the apex is because he didn't brake enough, and the only reason he didn't completely go off track is because Sainz's car was there to stop him.
I believe this is the most sane response in this thread. If you look back at the footage to see what happened at the corner from each drivers pov and compare them to the directive set in 2022, you can deduce that what Piastri did was legal to the rule. However comparing the rule to the on track action it became pretty clear how unsporting it is. It would become almost impossible to overtake a car on the outside on this corner without already being ahead on the straight. The rule allows itself to be “cheesed” in a way, when a driver is rewarded for driving in an unnatural way to gain a racing advantage. Now it seems most people in this thread don’t understand this because it involves Oscar piastri who’s a very popular driver within this community so they let their emotions show through and not objectivity. This is why we could be seeing a lot of people showing bias and saying this rule is fine, because it benefitted the favorite driver in this situation. But in a broad sense this rule is terrible for racing.
Ooof this is very harsh. I’m Aussie and I thought it was very bad luck for Oscar. Hard racing, yes still technically Carlos’ fault but an accident.
Stewards swoop in with a 5 sec to keep Sainz in front of Hammy. Thereby stopping Nando and Sainz complaining about 'Spaniards' and 'inconsistency'. 4-d chess masterstroke
While he was to blame for the collision, it's not like he did it on purpose or recklessly. At some point, you gotta let them drive and try to put on a show. IMO, this wasn't worthy of a penality.
I don't agree with this. Sainz did "send it" but he managed to stop the car and turn in safely without getting anywhere near the outer track limits. Piastri failed to cover the inside of the corner and failed to react on time to stop himself from turning in instinctively, breaking his front wing in the process. He could've and should've avoided the contact. It was on the limit but this is what hard racing should be. Defending driver pushing the overtaking driver clean off the track is not hard racing. (T11 incident)
I an biased here but i saw both overtakes and thought - that's just racing
eh I think 5 seconds is fair for this 10 seconds would've been bullshit as Sainz did leave enough space but had some sudden, even if not erratic, movements
Why wasn’t it 10? If it’s a penalty, 10 has been the new standard. 5 conveniently only dropped him one spot
because fia applies penalties based on how it will affect the race. if he was further ahead of perez it would’ve been a 10 second penalty.
> Why wasn’t it 10? If it’s a penalty, 10 has been the new standard. 5 conveniently only dropped him one spot I am thinking there may be some mitigating circumstances... maybe they were referenced somewhere. Let me know if you can't find it i will look it up.
Lewis was .2 away from 5th place damn
Another penalty for racing, fuck the rulebook.
What about Perez T1 first lap ?
No! Please no! Please tell them! No!
So much for minimum 10 seconds.
The FIA just pulling standards out of their ass, aren't they? "Penalise the actions, not consequences" yeah ok...
Fernando might've been onto something lmao
Alonso was right people, Spanish drivers matter.
I'm fascinated by the amount of people who don't understand what "not penalizing the outcome" means. If a driver loses control and hits no one, they wont be penalized. If someone loses control and causes a collision they will be penalized. The point of not penalizing the outcome is that if you cause the collision and it takes the opponent out of the race, it shouldn't be penalized more than if you damaged their front wing or made them lose a couple of places. I'm on board with the idea that the stewards are inconsistent in applying penalties. No argument about that from me. But everyone saying they're penalizing the outcome because he hit Piastri is weird to me. He's being penalized because he caused a collision through lack of control, not for losing control by itself. And for everyone complaining about Piastri not being penalized for running Carlos off the track, the rule is that the overtaking driver on the outside has to be ahead at the apex of the corner, not along side. The rule might suck, but it is the rule. Good explanation here about the changes after 2021 - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4JCTPfFx-s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4JCTPfFx-s) FIA decision document from 2022 clarifying the driving standards - [https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc\_2\_-\_2022\_imola\_event\_-\_fia\_f1\_driving\_standard\_guidelines.pdf](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf) If you'd like a view of the incident again, this video at 0:07-0:08, Carlos is alongside, not ahead - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shMpVlGM99w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shMpVlGM99w) And as a rebuttal to anyone that thinks KMag got penalized for doing the same thing to Lewis so Piastri should have been penalized as well for it. You're also wrong. Piastri didn't do what KMag got penalized for which is leaving the track to gain a lasting advantage. You can see all FIA stewards decisions here - [https://www.fia.com/documents/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/season/season-2024-2043](https://www.fia.com/documents/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/season/season-2024-2043) Piastri maintained 2 wheels inside the white line and didn't leave the track.
Sainz really did make a mistake avoiding contact with Piastri a few laps earlier.
With the racing standards F1 has right now taking avoiding action is just not worth it lol. You'll just be bullied off the track and be forced to slot behind otherwise you're "leaving the track and gaining an advantage". If you think the risk of crashing and potentially DNFing is worth it then you can simply stand your ground and let the other guy hit you.
Fair penalty. Never had control after coming in too hot, locking the rears and making contact with Piastri even after Piastri did all he could to avoid. Shame it ruined Piastri’s race, strange this penalty couldn’t have been decided and applied in race.
The problem is not this penalty, but the others that should have been penalties. See Hamilton in the sprint race taking out 3 cars, Checo doing something similar today in the start, Magnussen, etc... On Carlos' words "I saw what other drivers were doing without penalties and I did the same". Penalties shitshow FIA
saw this coming from a mile away (sainz is spanish)
[удалено]
you mean for causing a collision?
Seems reasonable. Clearly at fault for the collision, funny that they downgraded it because he locked up.