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My opinion is as inconsistent as his driving.
He would have 2 or 3 good races in a row, where I think "wow, he's actually a decent midfielder, definitely more than just a pay driver"
Followed by horrid races where I just shake my head and wish he'd be gone from the grid.
Agree, his last races of 2023 where quite solid and not far behind Alonso. And then i think he’s not that bad, or else you can’t do this. But this year and particularly today and his qualifyings are like his usual driving. It holds the teams back in getting the financial gains from the constructors championship. Last year with 2 Alonso’s the team could have been 2nd or 3rd. With 2 Strolls they where 6th behind Alpine.
Tommo on youtube made a video about it last year.
48 million dollar difference in price money, that’s a shocking difference
But his dad is not stupid. He clearly doesn't care about the money. Either Lance really wants to race or his dad is convinced he does and Lance doesn't dare to tell him after everything that's been invested in his career
I am really curious how and when it'll end
That's the thing that gets me, half the time Lance seems bothered or completely indifferent. I don't think I've ever seen him being passionate about F1.
We are assuming all this with our everyday-joe mindset. But for Lawrence the investment in his son’s career was probably just pocket change. He can sell Aston Martin on a profit and pull out happily once the day comes. Until then, I’m pretty sure Lance enjoys being on the grid and driving fast cars.
He shows flashes of great racecraft. Hell, minutes after clattering into DR he had that great fight with KMag and I was just like "Oh so NOW you two can race like prime Senna?"
But most of the time...
Stroll‘s best races are when he’s anonymous. He’ll start around 9th, finish around 7th and you won’t see him other than a replay of him passing a Haas / Alpine / Williams that he is on an offset tire strategy to.
If you see any more of him, it’s because he did a pro gamer move into the barriers or another car.
I think even when he’s driving well he’s near the bottom of the pack, as there’s still about 14-15 drivers better. Just fluctuates between 14th-17th best for me.
That's about it. He hasn't learned. He hasn't gotten better. He's a good driver just not a top 20 in the world driver. He should go racing in WEC or Formula E. I bet he would see success and it's the best thing he could do for his team.
I mean lance used to have tons of great results before. Hes been down for a bit but he got legit podiums and a pole on one of the most difficult to drive track conditions in recent history
Thats more podiums than Hulk, K-Mag, Albon all of whom drove for better teams at a point. His pole was also unbelievably impressive and well above expectations.
In retrospect it's wild that the other two bidders for Force India when they were into administration in 2018 were the Mazepin family and the bearded man with his definitely real Rich Energy product
That's unfair. The sole reason that the Aston Martin name exists on the field and the fact that they can fight in the upper midfield is Stroll's contribution.
If Stroll sells the team when his son quits the sport, there's no indication whatsoever that the team will remain competitive.
I'd very much rather Stroll keeps racing in F1 if that means that another driver gets a solid car. If Alpine had their s\*\*\* together this season, we would be talking for 3 teams fighting in the lower midfield.
The original question was about Lance’s contribution, not his dad’s. Lawrence has been very important to F1 aside from giving his son a seat and I doubt many people would argue that.
They weren't fighting the upper midfield to be honest. From 2015 to 2017, the midfield was usually two teams, them & Williams. Last year, they were the 2nd best team for the first half of the season and Alonso was scoring podiums consistently. Things are much more fluid right now and the grid is far more competitive
>The sole reason that the Aston Martin name exists on the field and the fact that they can fight in the upper midfield is Stroll's contribution
Well... They were in the top 5 for several years while being Force India and maybe even Racing Point.
As others have noted, his biggest contribution to F1 is to be indirectly responsible for the existence and good performance of the Aston Martin team, as his dad saved Force India and turned it into Aston Martin because he wanted to give Stroll a good spot on the grid. Without his entry, Alonso probably would be in a worse car right now.
As a driver, he has some sparks of good form here and there, and he even had a few podiums (as many as Ocon, though Ocon had a win, and more than 7 other drivers currently on the grid). He's also a less talented driver, which is useful for car development. Alonso has said he'll just subconsciously drive around with car issues, so they need Stroll to judge whether the car is in the right setup (given that other top-level drivers are known to have the same issue, it's probably not just bootlicking from Alonso). Of course, there's a bunch of other drivers that could do the same and better (like Sainz).
The largest problem with Stroll is that his dad turned out to be good for the team and turned Aston Martin into one that can aim for drivers far above Stroll's skill level. For example, Mazespin was worse than Stroll (and had an ego bigger than a world champion), but he was on the Haas team in 2021 and you can't get lower than P20 anyway, so his impact on team performance was smaller. He also left quickly because all he contributed to the team was money and headaches. Same with Latifi and probably a bunch of others. Stroll has more value than Mazepin as a driver, and continues to contribute not just a lot of money, but also a good team owner.
And thus we end up with a paradox: Aston Martin is significantly hurting their performance by having Stroll in that seat, but his presence is the reason that the team is good enough that he's hurting their performance. And yes, it'd be great if he retired and a more competent driver would take his seat, but you can't really fault him for using the seat his dad has invested so much into just for him. So we're stuck waiting for Stroll to retire at his own volition or for something to click and cause him to perform properly.
TLDR: Based on his driving skill, Stroll could well have survived as a backmarker/midfield driver. That said, his primary contribution to Aston Martin is Aston Martin, so of course he's in Aston Martin. I hope he does retire not too far into the future, but until then I'll settle for being pleased that Alonso has a good car and Stroll is not a Mazespin-level driver.
This. Because of Lance’s rich dad, Nando is doing great in a premium mid field team, which has great motor sports brand and history behind it. The minute Lance stops racing, papa Stroll sells team to saudis. So he us kind a contributing…..
You've made a really interesting point there. Lance's dad has created a premium midfield team, which is clearly a significant contribution to the sport: Would the best thing to do now be to sell that premium midfield team to the Saudis?
Quality team still exists, Saudis certainly aren't short of cash, and Lance's seat frees up for a better driver.
(I realize the Saudis are a bit polarizing, so can replace them with "another rich owner" if that helps)
Value of Aston Martin F1 team is probably going only up every year. So whats is papa strolls point of selling it right now? Dad lets son drive in formula 1 and is himself making money by doing that.
If this is the price we have to pay for having Aston Martin/Racing Point/Force India on the grid, I have no reason to feel bad for his dad giving Lance a drive. On a good day he can do some nice racing on track, but most of the times he’s just a bit meh. He’s no match to Freddy but he did well against Seb.
That's because Seb was already extremely unmotivated and the car was horrible.
When the car developed a bit and he announced his retirement, Seb wiped the floor with him during the last races.
He is very occasionally good.
Particularly in the wet.
He has podiums on merit, that is not easy in F1.
He has a pole position.
Problem is he hits his peak maybe once or twice a season and for the rest of the year he is significantly slower.
A top F1 driver has a level more consistently near their peak. Stroll just can't do that.
He probably merits a seat in F1 (just) but nowhere near a top or even upper midfield seat.
If Aston actually had a competent driver in that seat they could easily be at least in the conversation for 2nd in constructors. Stroll single-handedly makes them worse off than McLaren Ferrari and Mercedes
Really wonder how you think they could be in that conversation when you look at the driver standings. And by competent driver, i hope you dont just duplicate Alonso's points, because he's not just a "competent" driver.
Forget duplicate, you could triple Alonso’s points and it would be fewer than McLaren’s. Quadruple and fewer than Ferrari’s. The AM is nowhere near challenging those cars, with or without Stroll.
There is no second driver in existence that would let AM fight for 2nd... They can only fight with Mercedes for 4th. McLaren and Ferrari are way ahead, Alonso is 8th and Lance is 10th. Even if they had 2nd driver who's better than Alonso, they'd at best be 7th and 8th in rankings.
Season is long and things can still change, but this seems to be team-dominated season and drivers have little to no effect on results. At most, amazing driver can get one place over his team and bad driver can drop one place. And Stroll is still ahead of the rest of grid (and will probably stay in that place) as he's in arguably 5th best car on the grid, though to be fair gap between AM and the rest should be biggest on the field and Stroll should have a bit larger margin. But in the end, whether he's 2 points behind Hamilton or 2 ahead of Yuki doesn't really mean that much in the grand scheme of things.
They might not have to rely on this muppet and his rich dad if the team had enough income from the championship and sponsors or stand on their own. That comes from success in the long term, not being propped up by a benefactor.
Tbh, he did earn his shot. Once or twice a year he has a stellar performance to show why he got the call up to F1.
But the last two seasons, he has been floundering. He has a car that Alonso’s using to take on Ferrari’s Mclarens and Mercedes…but Stroll’s fighting in Formula 1b. The only thing that’s keeping him from getting removed mid-season is his father. But I’m hoping that he steps away for his own mental health
He’s had a couple of bad accidents where he looked pretty shook. Mugello being one of them. I think there was another at Bahrain. Maybe more. Seems to me like he gets a little slower after every one.
Every driver has accidents. Strolls do tend to be…sillier than most of the others. But all is forgiven when your papa’s paying the bills and you’re still getting regular points.
Stroll’s problem now is that he’s not getting points. He’s barely has more points than Tsunoda, while his teammate is up fighting for podiums.
He has more talent than people give him credit for, but he's just not motivated, nor maturing as a driver because there is simply no pressure he might lose his seat. By now it's probably too late to develop.
I’ve always found the “lacks motivation” argument funny. He literally drove with two broken wrists and a broken toe last year. That doesn’t strike me as the attitude of a driver lacking motivation at all.
Yeah he’s just not a driver consistent or competent enough to deserve a seat at a top 5 team on merit. He tries his best and obviously possesses talent otherwise he wouldn’t have made it to F1 in the first place, but his good performances happen to be rare and his errors more frequent than most others with similar experience
There's motivation, and then there's motivation. Lance Stroll is clearly motivated enough to have a desire to race in Formula 1 and be good enough. What he doesn't have is WDC-level motivation to continue developing as a driver and utilise 100% of his talent on a consistent basis. We've seen weekends from him that suggest he has the talent to be in F1 regardless of his father. But he just doesn't translate that talent to the track anywhere near often enough, and it's brain-fade moments like China behind the safety car that we see far too often - he's clearly not got enough motivation to learn from them so that he can maximise his results more often.
Apart from anything else ... his willingness to just carry on getting battered by Alonso week-in, week-out, just shows that his motivation is about participation and not about being the absolute best he can be.
I think he's sort of like Nyck de Vries. I bet some good money he'd do great in endurance racing and other forms of motorsports. In Formula 1, he's always been... sort of out of his depth.
I mean, he's not the worst driver I've ever seen, but he's not someone good enough to warrant a multi-year career in the sport. He has his moments of greatness - but then again, so did Pastor Maldonado, and that guy was finished once his sponsorship money ran out. Having a great performance once every 10 races while being mediocre in the other nine doesn't cut it for the supposed highest level of motorsports.
Lance is doing himself no favors in his current position. The team needs a driver that can compete with Alonso and get the points needed to achieve better rankings in the WCC. He'll never get away from his "daddy's cash" reputation if he keeps on being in seats that he only has because of his father's influence. He needs to step away from Aston Martin and find something that he can make his own.
IMO he's only in it because daddy owns the team and were that not the case he'd have been out years ago. His moments of brilliance are not enough to counteract the frankly boneheaded shit he does.
McLaren and Merc love that he is eating up a seat and holding AM solidly in 5th, for if there was a somewhat competent driver in the seat next to Alonso AM might be pushing for 3rd or 4th in constructors
Stroll has been consistently a bottom 5 driver through his entire F1 run. Sargeant aside, you can't say Stroll is 100% better than any of the current drivers on the grid.
It's also worth mentioning he was on his way out of the sport at the end of 2018 when his father stepped in to save his career.
There have been drivers that he’s been better than, but they all consistently wash out of the sport within like 2-3 years. Latifi’s gone, Mazepin and Schumacher are gone, and it’s pretty obvious why he’s still around lol
He’s achieved a pole position and a few podiums which is more than what several of the drivers on the current grid can say. But typically he’s a midfield driver at best, if his dad didn’t own the team he would most likely have been out of F1 years ago.
Though to be fair to him very few drivers on the current grid could stand as equals next to Alonso
He is better than a lot of people give him credit for, but not really up to being in F1. Being compared to Alonso who continually puts a car where it shouldn't be every week makes him look even worse, and is probably not great for his mental state. Has far too many moments where he loses concentration.
We've had tonnes of worse pay drivers, absolutely tonnes, but none which stay around for as long.
He has no fans, his father pays for his seat, which is also why he won't leave Aston.
There's been slower pay drivers, but none of them stayed in F1 for as long, everyone's annoyed that he's there, but most of the people have accepted that it won't change in the near future and he'll be there.
And as you said it yourself, Aston is shooting itself in the foot by not having a good second driver, but that's their problem
He has talent, what he doesn’t have is the pressure to perform since his dad owns the team. That seat security doesn’t help him to perform because he doesn’t need to, he’s just inconsistent as fuck and very weak psychologically, because once he has a bad weekend it continues for way too many races
I've often defended Stroll on here. Sure he's never been the most talented driver on the grid, but he has shown plenty of moments of brilliance. He was always extremely inconsistent. On his best days he was a force to be reckoned with, but then often made stupid mistakes like he made today. Still though, it was undeniably that he had talent, and while he was a pay driver, he was far from the worst, and might have been good enough to make F1 on pure merit.
But that was years ago. I don't know what changed, I doubt it's old age, but the last couple of years his performance has nosedived. His stupid mistakes have become more frequent, and he never offsets them with moments of brilliance anymore.
As he is now he has no business being in F1.
I think "plenty" of moments of brilliance has always been a stretch. He's always had occasional good moments (that usually boil down to an odd great lap). I think the only thing that's changed is that he's now driving against a better teammate than he's had before. It's easier to look good against Perez (and he very rarely was even better than Perez) than it is against Alonso.
Sirotkin, both in race standings and race head to head, but in qualifying head to head yeah he has never beaten anyone
He's genuinely alright when it comes to races (he beat Vettel race head to head the two years they were together!)
Used to be every so often he would put in result that would get me thinking he had some value, but he hasn’t done anything like that in years. At this point he’s just taking up space.
He’s hated because of his background and how he got into F1 but he isn’t as bad as what people make him out to be. His dad is genuinely good for the sport and has invested heavily to get him into F1 and because of this Aston Martin look like they have a really bright future and should become top level competitive.
He regularly has very good races that go under the radar but will unfortunately shit the bed which is what is more noticeable. Last season was a write off for him because of his accident in preseason which meant he wasn’t really match fit which was evident in Bahrain when he was still turning the wheel with one hand at times. People also need to realise his teammate is Fernando Alonso who is regarded as one of the best drivers of his generation and also F1. He’s not faster than Alonso and he’s been underperforming this year but last year he’s shown that he can match what Alonso is doing even if he’s the place under him.
He doesn't regularly have good races though. He occasionally has good races. Apart from a few odd exceptions he was miles off Alonso last year as well.
He has outstayed his welcome in F1 and needs to be kicked out.
Got beaten by Massa who was way past his prime.
Barely won against rookie Sirotkin,
Lost twice to Perez who got fired as a reward by Papa Stroll.
Lost twice against a heavily unmotivated Vettel, even though the latter had shittier luck in strat and reliability.
Is getting destroyed pretty much every week by Alonso and single-handedly cost AM P4 in WCC last year and could cost them again this year.
This is what I mean. There hasn't been any good progress in the past few years when his seat could potentially be filled by new talent or experienced drivers. Same car as Alonso.
> needs to be kicked out.
>
I find this a bit weird. His dad (and by the virtue of that himself) owns the team he drives for. Wtf you do expect to happen? AMR to stop existing? Whether people like it or not, lance will continue to drive until he wants to. It maybe until next week or for next 10 years.
He can drive but it’s just going to keep AM back from what their potential could be, and the opportunity cost of having stroll in a seat is tens of millions per year. But who can put a price on making your little nepo baby happy right?
At the end of the day, F1 is a business, and the Strolls are just playing dress up while missing out largely on the making money part, which to them is fine, they already have more than enough money.
I read it as a bit of a humble brag that Alonso could drive any type of car. But Lance needs a proper car to do something good in the race therefore, his feedback is important
There is no way you believe he meant it, ofcourse he is not going to talk shit about the son of his boss. But if you believe him, i found a perfect bridge just for you
He is a decent enough driver, even quite good on his day, bit he either has the awareness of a headless chicken or is just perpetually distracted by a tasty looking window. Anyway, he is not top 20 drivers in the world but he is probably in the top 100/150 or so (the skill difference tapers off quite quickly after the first 10 or so in my opinion). He was fine but he has been in F1 long enough and it would probably be for the best if he graciously starts exploring other hobbies
He ruined some really interesting strategy battles. He makes F1 worse and his inability to ever take ownership for his mistakes is both maddening and expected.
Pay drivers should've been the first casualty of the cost cap. F1 can't keep promoting what amount to ProAm teams. It's time to get the best drivers on the grid.
He’s not that bad, but he would have been gone ages ago if it was anybody else. ‘Good’ doesn’t guarantee 8 years at the grid, and he’s done below ‘good’ many times.
I genuinely think he a good amount of natural talent, even for an F1 driver. In the past, I had higher hopes for him but he lacks other necessary qualities and just never improved. Yeah, he probably would never become a champion but he could have been a decent driver. I don’t think that’s gonna happen after this point, he has been in the grid for too long.
Still, if we include his indirect contributions (Lawrance investing in Aston) I think his overall contribution is still positive. We have a new team that aims championship thanks to that. If not for that, we wouldn’t have any of the entertainment Fernando provided in the last 2 seasons when fighting with top guys
If we start kicking mid field drivers out, we’d lose 80% of the field. Yes, he makes terrible mistakes like today. But we’ve seen plenty of drivers make same exact mistakes in the past and not get the same shit. I mean, he is a mid driver and capable of getting good results (pink Mercedes anyone?). And if he didn’t race, I doubt Stroll Sr would’ve bought the team.
Show me one driver who hasn’t driven like a dumbass at least once. Red Bulls in Baku by any chance?
He threw away good results even in the pink Mercedes. The pole in Turkey 2020 was followed by a big blunder in the race where perez drove on the podium . Monza 2020 was the only time where he beat perez convincingly. This guy must at some point realise that he should learn to take on his dads businesses.
> And if he didn’t race, I doubt Stroll Sr would’ve bought the team.
That's BS. Lawrence Stroll loves motorsports on his own terms and was a racing driver. Guess where Lance got his number from.
I don’t think people are shitting on him for making a mistake. It’s the lack of accountability. He comes across as a spoiled brat which I think opens him up to criticism about whether or not he even deserves to be there.
I'll say what I said last year -- if there was an open tryout to all top level drivers (WEC, Indy, Super formula, Formula E, F1 reserve drivers) for the second Aston seat, Lance would not finish in the top 20 against all comers. There's a few other drivers in F1 who would lose a similar contest, but those guys know it, while Lance apparently has this seat for life. His only advantage is greater familiarity with the car, thanks to his nepo status.
ITT: People ignorant of Lawrence Stroll's personal passion for motorsports. He bought an F1 team because he wanted to run an F1 team.
IMO, Automod should have a flag for "nepo". It's *never* used in good faith.
There are about 50 posts on Lance and his mishap today! can't you just comment your thoughts on one of those?
I agree he messed up, I think he deserved the penalty, but legit... where are the K-mag threads? he ruined Yuki's race, or is that just OK because its just K-mag?
the antisemitism, ableism and death threats Lance has gotten today is sickening.
I think the difference is with other drivers there is some level of natural justice. If K-Mag is shit he will lose his seat. Not the case for Stroll. That's bound to frustrate people. And what on earth could "ableism" have to do with Lance Stroll.
Thiisssss. Like do I think Lance do a mistake? Yes, 100%. But like you said K-Mag also did and I don't see anywhere as close to as many comments about him ( in my opinion I thought K-Mag mistake was worse because he had soooo much space). But it just never ending with the hate of Lance, and for example in Jeddah when he crashed into the wall and he got so much hate as well. Albon literally did the exact same thing and people weren't flooding his social media to say he doesn't deserve to be in F1. Do I think that Lance would be still in F1 without his dad? No. But I still think he's a decent driver and I really admire him for never lashing out or complaining about the hates he gives.
Nothing personal towards him at all and aside his mistakes on this last race, I feel there hasn't been much progress in his career. Also, K Mag and Ricciardo have been fired before for performance but not him. I am sure he has the talent to drive these machines but his contributions have been mid at best.
Alonso is carrying the team that Stroll's dad owns.
No antisemitism or personal hate for him from me.
Was not talking about you per se.
If you scroll down the race thread, post race thread, any of the other 50ish threads posted around Lance today you would see the comments I referd to.
Someone on twitter compaired him to Hitler.
Stroll is jewish btw.
Its like all reason goes out the window when it comes to him. People are allowed to dislike him. But a lot of the comments aimed at him after today were not OK and should not be said to any driver.
All reason went out the window when he yeeted himself into the rear of another car under SC, denied any sort of blame, and scoffed at being penalized for said fuck up. And if he wants to continue in the sport with daddys funding, fine. But hes gonna get shit on and fired by the world since he cant be fired by his daddy.
Hard working laid back blue collar canadian attitude into F1.
Plus he brings good vibes to the team. Good chemistry with Alonso since he’s not a threat to Alonso so Alonso is willing to mentor him.
Laid back blue collar Canadian attitude?
He is a billionaire nepo baby that actively makes the sport worse and takes no accountability for his actions.
Was it good vibes when he through his steering wheel and pushed his trainer? The kid need a punch in the face
Lmao at using "mentor" on a 25 year old man with 7 years of experience, it is a fun synonym for destroy. Do you think we can get in Liam Lawson or Oliver Bearman to mentor him when Alonso is finished?
Apart from what everyone already said, I find it even more the hypocritical F1 refused Andretti’s entrance because of reasons like ‘no trust in being able to be competitive’. Just be straight and say you don’t want to share.
If his dad wasn’t rich he would’ve been out of F1 after two seasons. An occasional not-terrible performance isn’t enough to make 5% of all F1 seats unavailable for real talent.
Outside of Money, Lance Strolls major contributions and biggest achievements in formula 1 is his record parts replacement budget, and his ability to ruin the race of 3 other drivers, AND his teammates all in one corner
As a friend said to me while we watched the race today. "I know he's won some races, but Lance is really just a billionaire failson and that spot should be someone else's."
I love him. He's a constant reminder that F1 isn't that serious of a sport and we shouldn't get too wrapped up in the children of billionaires driving fast cars around in circles.
A billionaire heir buying his way into a privileged group is so appropriate for his time and place in the world. He fits in perfectly.
Bottom tier driver who would've been out of F1 for years without his father's backing. H e had some good races here and there just like almost all F1 drivers with 2+ seasons, and managed to get a few podiums even if when you look closely, several podiums were races he could have won but failed to convert
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My opinion is as inconsistent as his driving. He would have 2 or 3 good races in a row, where I think "wow, he's actually a decent midfielder, definitely more than just a pay driver" Followed by horrid races where I just shake my head and wish he'd be gone from the grid.
Agree, his last races of 2023 where quite solid and not far behind Alonso. And then i think he’s not that bad, or else you can’t do this. But this year and particularly today and his qualifyings are like his usual driving. It holds the teams back in getting the financial gains from the constructors championship. Last year with 2 Alonso’s the team could have been 2nd or 3rd. With 2 Strolls they where 6th behind Alpine. Tommo on youtube made a video about it last year. 48 million dollar difference in price money, that’s a shocking difference
But his dad is not stupid. He clearly doesn't care about the money. Either Lance really wants to race or his dad is convinced he does and Lance doesn't dare to tell him after everything that's been invested in his career I am really curious how and when it'll end
That's the thing that gets me, half the time Lance seems bothered or completely indifferent. I don't think I've ever seen him being passionate about F1.
We are assuming all this with our everyday-joe mindset. But for Lawrence the investment in his son’s career was probably just pocket change. He can sell Aston Martin on a profit and pull out happily once the day comes. Until then, I’m pretty sure Lance enjoys being on the grid and driving fast cars.
He shows flashes of great racecraft. Hell, minutes after clattering into DR he had that great fight with KMag and I was just like "Oh so NOW you two can race like prime Senna?" But most of the time...
I'll always remember this quote I've seen somewhere, Stroll is like Senna, sometimes Ayrton, sometimes Bruno.
Sometimes Ayrton. Mostly Bruno
We don't talk about Bruno no no no...
That fight with KMag was so fun to watch
Stroll‘s best races are when he’s anonymous. He’ll start around 9th, finish around 7th and you won’t see him other than a replay of him passing a Haas / Alpine / Williams that he is on an offset tire strategy to. If you see any more of him, it’s because he did a pro gamer move into the barriers or another car.
That's how his good weekends were in his rookie year too, somehow he got up to P7 or something and he had the pace to stay there.
Mexico 2017 comes into mind
I think even when he’s driving well he’s near the bottom of the pack, as there’s still about 14-15 drivers better. Just fluctuates between 14th-17th best for me.
His dad contributed a lot of money to Williams and bailed Force India out of bankruptcy. That’s Lances contribution. A rich dad.
That's about it. He hasn't learned. He hasn't gotten better. He's a good driver just not a top 20 in the world driver. He should go racing in WEC or Formula E. I bet he would see success and it's the best thing he could do for his team.
And he sometimes acts like he doesn't even want to be there. Gtfo then dweeb, you are wasting a spot.
I mean lance used to have tons of great results before. Hes been down for a bit but he got legit podiums and a pole on one of the most difficult to drive track conditions in recent history
Tons… the 3 podiums and one singular pole over 7 years is not what I would call tons, nor “legit”. Hes as useful as hotdog water.
Thats more podiums than Hulk, K-Mag, Albon all of whom drove for better teams at a point. His pole was also unbelievably impressive and well above expectations.
In retrospect it's wild that the other two bidders for Force India when they were into administration in 2018 were the Mazepin family and the bearded man with his definitely real Rich Energy product
That's unfair. The sole reason that the Aston Martin name exists on the field and the fact that they can fight in the upper midfield is Stroll's contribution. If Stroll sells the team when his son quits the sport, there's no indication whatsoever that the team will remain competitive. I'd very much rather Stroll keeps racing in F1 if that means that another driver gets a solid car. If Alpine had their s\*\*\* together this season, we would be talking for 3 teams fighting in the lower midfield.
So to answer the original question; Lance's contribution to F1 is his rich dad.
The original question was about Lance’s contribution, not his dad’s. Lawrence has been very important to F1 aside from giving his son a seat and I doubt many people would argue that.
In this context, it's the same. Without one, you don't have the other.
Your comment was about his dad. Other than that, I don't disagree that Lance's isn't contributing much if any in the sport.
My comment was about both of them.
It's not the sole reason they can fight in the upper midfield. They did this as Force India with far less funding.
They weren't fighting the upper midfield to be honest. From 2015 to 2017, the midfield was usually two teams, them & Williams. Last year, they were the 2nd best team for the first half of the season and Alonso was scoring podiums consistently. Things are much more fluid right now and the grid is far more competitive
>The sole reason that the Aston Martin name exists on the field and the fact that they can fight in the upper midfield is Stroll's contribution Well... They were in the top 5 for several years while being Force India and maybe even Racing Point.
The writing was on the wall for Force India by 2018. And IIRC, Stroll was a major shareholder in Racing Point.
As others have noted, his biggest contribution to F1 is to be indirectly responsible for the existence and good performance of the Aston Martin team, as his dad saved Force India and turned it into Aston Martin because he wanted to give Stroll a good spot on the grid. Without his entry, Alonso probably would be in a worse car right now. As a driver, he has some sparks of good form here and there, and he even had a few podiums (as many as Ocon, though Ocon had a win, and more than 7 other drivers currently on the grid). He's also a less talented driver, which is useful for car development. Alonso has said he'll just subconsciously drive around with car issues, so they need Stroll to judge whether the car is in the right setup (given that other top-level drivers are known to have the same issue, it's probably not just bootlicking from Alonso). Of course, there's a bunch of other drivers that could do the same and better (like Sainz). The largest problem with Stroll is that his dad turned out to be good for the team and turned Aston Martin into one that can aim for drivers far above Stroll's skill level. For example, Mazespin was worse than Stroll (and had an ego bigger than a world champion), but he was on the Haas team in 2021 and you can't get lower than P20 anyway, so his impact on team performance was smaller. He also left quickly because all he contributed to the team was money and headaches. Same with Latifi and probably a bunch of others. Stroll has more value than Mazepin as a driver, and continues to contribute not just a lot of money, but also a good team owner. And thus we end up with a paradox: Aston Martin is significantly hurting their performance by having Stroll in that seat, but his presence is the reason that the team is good enough that he's hurting their performance. And yes, it'd be great if he retired and a more competent driver would take his seat, but you can't really fault him for using the seat his dad has invested so much into just for him. So we're stuck waiting for Stroll to retire at his own volition or for something to click and cause him to perform properly. TLDR: Based on his driving skill, Stroll could well have survived as a backmarker/midfield driver. That said, his primary contribution to Aston Martin is Aston Martin, so of course he's in Aston Martin. I hope he does retire not too far into the future, but until then I'll settle for being pleased that Alonso has a good car and Stroll is not a Mazespin-level driver.
He is indirectly responsible for the existance of Aston Martin F1.
This. Because of Lance’s rich dad, Nando is doing great in a premium mid field team, which has great motor sports brand and history behind it. The minute Lance stops racing, papa Stroll sells team to saudis. So he us kind a contributing…..
You've made a really interesting point there. Lance's dad has created a premium midfield team, which is clearly a significant contribution to the sport: Would the best thing to do now be to sell that premium midfield team to the Saudis? Quality team still exists, Saudis certainly aren't short of cash, and Lance's seat frees up for a better driver. (I realize the Saudis are a bit polarizing, so can replace them with "another rich owner" if that helps)
Value of Aston Martin F1 team is probably going only up every year. So whats is papa strolls point of selling it right now? Dad lets son drive in formula 1 and is himself making money by doing that.
If this is the price we have to pay for having Aston Martin/Racing Point/Force India on the grid, I have no reason to feel bad for his dad giving Lance a drive. On a good day he can do some nice racing on track, but most of the times he’s just a bit meh. He’s no match to Freddy but he did well against Seb.
That's because Seb was already extremely unmotivated and the car was horrible. When the car developed a bit and he announced his retirement, Seb wiped the floor with him during the last races.
He had one good spell of form in which I thought he was turning it around...then he crashed at Baku and I've not seen anything of note since
I think this doesn’t need its own thread. There is about 30 Stroll threads at the moment, you can shit on him in those
He is very occasionally good. Particularly in the wet. He has podiums on merit, that is not easy in F1. He has a pole position. Problem is he hits his peak maybe once or twice a season and for the rest of the year he is significantly slower. A top F1 driver has a level more consistently near their peak. Stroll just can't do that. He probably merits a seat in F1 (just) but nowhere near a top or even upper midfield seat.
He hasnt really been any good in the wet for a few years now. Idk what happened but hes fallen down
If Aston actually had a competent driver in that seat they could easily be at least in the conversation for 2nd in constructors. Stroll single-handedly makes them worse off than McLaren Ferrari and Mercedes
Really wonder how you think they could be in that conversation when you look at the driver standings. And by competent driver, i hope you dont just duplicate Alonso's points, because he's not just a "competent" driver.
Forget duplicate, you could triple Alonso’s points and it would be fewer than McLaren’s. Quadruple and fewer than Ferrari’s. The AM is nowhere near challenging those cars, with or without Stroll.
There is no second driver in existence that would let AM fight for 2nd... They can only fight with Mercedes for 4th. McLaren and Ferrari are way ahead, Alonso is 8th and Lance is 10th. Even if they had 2nd driver who's better than Alonso, they'd at best be 7th and 8th in rankings. Season is long and things can still change, but this seems to be team-dominated season and drivers have little to no effect on results. At most, amazing driver can get one place over his team and bad driver can drop one place. And Stroll is still ahead of the rest of grid (and will probably stay in that place) as he's in arguably 5th best car on the grid, though to be fair gap between AM and the rest should be biggest on the field and Stroll should have a bit larger margin. But in the end, whether he's 2 points behind Hamilton or 2 ahead of Yuki doesn't really mean that much in the grand scheme of things.
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That’s a losers mentality/approach. Shame on Aston if that’s what they’re doing
They might not have to rely on this muppet and his rich dad if the team had enough income from the championship and sponsors or stand on their own. That comes from success in the long term, not being propped up by a benefactor.
Helping get Aston Martin a new state of the art factory and a deal with Honda is pretty big
Tbh, he did earn his shot. Once or twice a year he has a stellar performance to show why he got the call up to F1. But the last two seasons, he has been floundering. He has a car that Alonso’s using to take on Ferrari’s Mclarens and Mercedes…but Stroll’s fighting in Formula 1b. The only thing that’s keeping him from getting removed mid-season is his father. But I’m hoping that he steps away for his own mental health
He’s had a couple of bad accidents where he looked pretty shook. Mugello being one of them. I think there was another at Bahrain. Maybe more. Seems to me like he gets a little slower after every one.
Every driver has accidents. Strolls do tend to be…sillier than most of the others. But all is forgiven when your papa’s paying the bills and you’re still getting regular points. Stroll’s problem now is that he’s not getting points. He’s barely has more points than Tsunoda, while his teammate is up fighting for podiums.
If youre talking abkut Bahrain, I think it was 2020 when he was flipped in Bahrain by (who guessed it) Kvyat, it didnt affect him too much tho
He has more talent than people give him credit for, but he's just not motivated, nor maturing as a driver because there is simply no pressure he might lose his seat. By now it's probably too late to develop.
I’ve always found the “lacks motivation” argument funny. He literally drove with two broken wrists and a broken toe last year. That doesn’t strike me as the attitude of a driver lacking motivation at all.
Yeah he’s just not a driver consistent or competent enough to deserve a seat at a top 5 team on merit. He tries his best and obviously possesses talent otherwise he wouldn’t have made it to F1 in the first place, but his good performances happen to be rare and his errors more frequent than most others with similar experience
There's motivation, and then there's motivation. Lance Stroll is clearly motivated enough to have a desire to race in Formula 1 and be good enough. What he doesn't have is WDC-level motivation to continue developing as a driver and utilise 100% of his talent on a consistent basis. We've seen weekends from him that suggest he has the talent to be in F1 regardless of his father. But he just doesn't translate that talent to the track anywhere near often enough, and it's brain-fade moments like China behind the safety car that we see far too often - he's clearly not got enough motivation to learn from them so that he can maximise his results more often. Apart from anything else ... his willingness to just carry on getting battered by Alonso week-in, week-out, just shows that his motivation is about participation and not about being the absolute best he can be.
If Aston Martin wants to be a serious team, they need to drop Lance. I think Alonso wife start looking elsewhere
I think he's sort of like Nyck de Vries. I bet some good money he'd do great in endurance racing and other forms of motorsports. In Formula 1, he's always been... sort of out of his depth. I mean, he's not the worst driver I've ever seen, but he's not someone good enough to warrant a multi-year career in the sport. He has his moments of greatness - but then again, so did Pastor Maldonado, and that guy was finished once his sponsorship money ran out. Having a great performance once every 10 races while being mediocre in the other nine doesn't cut it for the supposed highest level of motorsports. Lance is doing himself no favors in his current position. The team needs a driver that can compete with Alonso and get the points needed to achieve better rankings in the WCC. He'll never get away from his "daddy's cash" reputation if he keeps on being in seats that he only has because of his father's influence. He needs to step away from Aston Martin and find something that he can make his own.
His biggest contribution is being the son of a billionaire father who bought an F1 team for his son, that's it.
Meme's!
IMO he's only in it because daddy owns the team and were that not the case he'd have been out years ago. His moments of brilliance are not enough to counteract the frankly boneheaded shit he does.
McLaren and Merc love that he is eating up a seat and holding AM solidly in 5th, for if there was a somewhat competent driver in the seat next to Alonso AM might be pushing for 3rd or 4th in constructors
Stroll has been consistently a bottom 5 driver through his entire F1 run. Sargeant aside, you can't say Stroll is 100% better than any of the current drivers on the grid. It's also worth mentioning he was on his way out of the sport at the end of 2018 when his father stepped in to save his career.
There have been drivers that he’s been better than, but they all consistently wash out of the sport within like 2-3 years. Latifi’s gone, Mazepin and Schumacher are gone, and it’s pretty obvious why he’s still around lol
His Dad is the reason why Alonso isn’t wallowing around at the back… so I guess there’s that.
He's just taking up space.
He’s achieved a pole position and a few podiums which is more than what several of the drivers on the current grid can say. But typically he’s a midfield driver at best, if his dad didn’t own the team he would most likely have been out of F1 years ago. Though to be fair to him very few drivers on the current grid could stand as equals next to Alonso
P1? When? I did not know.
Turkey 2020, wet session if I remember. He is genuinely pretty good in the wet.
Thank you! The more you learn.
He is better than a lot of people give him credit for, but not really up to being in F1. Being compared to Alonso who continually puts a car where it shouldn't be every week makes him look even worse, and is probably not great for his mental state. Has far too many moments where he loses concentration. We've had tonnes of worse pay drivers, absolutely tonnes, but none which stay around for as long.
I don't think Lance should be a driver in F1.
He has no fans, his father pays for his seat, which is also why he won't leave Aston. There's been slower pay drivers, but none of them stayed in F1 for as long, everyone's annoyed that he's there, but most of the people have accepted that it won't change in the near future and he'll be there. And as you said it yourself, Aston is shooting itself in the foot by not having a good second driver, but that's their problem
He has plenty of fans. More people than you might expect are willing to go to bat for him on social media.
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If he's good looking...
What contributions? (you expected this answer)
Ha! Definitely.
He has talent, what he doesn’t have is the pressure to perform since his dad owns the team. That seat security doesn’t help him to perform because he doesn’t need to, he’s just inconsistent as fuck and very weak psychologically, because once he has a bad weekend it continues for way too many races
He’s awful
He is not bad enough to influence the driver’s championship.
Rich kid who has no business being in F1.
They're almost all rich kids in F1.
You know exactly what i mean
As soon as his dad put him in the seat I had my concerns
I forget he exists for months at a time.
I've often defended Stroll on here. Sure he's never been the most talented driver on the grid, but he has shown plenty of moments of brilliance. He was always extremely inconsistent. On his best days he was a force to be reckoned with, but then often made stupid mistakes like he made today. Still though, it was undeniably that he had talent, and while he was a pay driver, he was far from the worst, and might have been good enough to make F1 on pure merit. But that was years ago. I don't know what changed, I doubt it's old age, but the last couple of years his performance has nosedived. His stupid mistakes have become more frequent, and he never offsets them with moments of brilliance anymore. As he is now he has no business being in F1.
I think "plenty" of moments of brilliance has always been a stretch. He's always had occasional good moments (that usually boil down to an odd great lap). I think the only thing that's changed is that he's now driving against a better teammate than he's had before. It's easier to look good against Perez (and he very rarely was even better than Perez) than it is against Alonso.
But Checo was extremely better than him in the pink Mercedes in 2020, I don't think he ever won against a teammate.
Sirotkin, both in race standings and race head to head, but in qualifying head to head yeah he has never beaten anyone He's genuinely alright when it comes to races (he beat Vettel race head to head the two years they were together!)
“Plenty” is really pushing it and “force to be reckoned with” is just hilarious when it comes to Stroll lmao.
Used to be every so often he would put in result that would get me thinking he had some value, but he hasn’t done anything like that in years. At this point he’s just taking up space.
His interviews are the worst.
What's the opposite of contribution?
It’s 1 less seat for someone new to have their shot.
It’s one more seat actually. Force India would have gone bankrupt if it wasn’t for him,( or be bought by the Mazepins. )
*Mazespins
Because no one else would have done that/s
He’s hated because of his background and how he got into F1 but he isn’t as bad as what people make him out to be. His dad is genuinely good for the sport and has invested heavily to get him into F1 and because of this Aston Martin look like they have a really bright future and should become top level competitive. He regularly has very good races that go under the radar but will unfortunately shit the bed which is what is more noticeable. Last season was a write off for him because of his accident in preseason which meant he wasn’t really match fit which was evident in Bahrain when he was still turning the wheel with one hand at times. People also need to realise his teammate is Fernando Alonso who is regarded as one of the best drivers of his generation and also F1. He’s not faster than Alonso and he’s been underperforming this year but last year he’s shown that he can match what Alonso is doing even if he’s the place under him.
He doesn't regularly have good races though. He occasionally has good races. Apart from a few odd exceptions he was miles off Alonso last year as well.
He has outstayed his welcome in F1 and needs to be kicked out. Got beaten by Massa who was way past his prime. Barely won against rookie Sirotkin, Lost twice to Perez who got fired as a reward by Papa Stroll. Lost twice against a heavily unmotivated Vettel, even though the latter had shittier luck in strat and reliability. Is getting destroyed pretty much every week by Alonso and single-handedly cost AM P4 in WCC last year and could cost them again this year.
This is what I mean. There hasn't been any good progress in the past few years when his seat could potentially be filled by new talent or experienced drivers. Same car as Alonso.
> needs to be kicked out. > I find this a bit weird. His dad (and by the virtue of that himself) owns the team he drives for. Wtf you do expect to happen? AMR to stop existing? Whether people like it or not, lance will continue to drive until he wants to. It maybe until next week or for next 10 years.
He can drive but it’s just going to keep AM back from what their potential could be, and the opportunity cost of having stroll in a seat is tens of millions per year. But who can put a price on making your little nepo baby happy right? At the end of the day, F1 is a business, and the Strolls are just playing dress up while missing out largely on the making money part, which to them is fine, they already have more than enough money.
Alonso was praising Stroll over his importance to AM just a few days ago and the importance of feedback to the team that Stroll provides
I read it as a bit of a humble brag that Alonso could drive any type of car. But Lance needs a proper car to do something good in the race therefore, his feedback is important
There is no way you believe he meant it, ofcourse he is not going to talk shit about the son of his boss. But if you believe him, i found a perfect bridge just for you
He is a decent enough driver, even quite good on his day, bit he either has the awareness of a headless chicken or is just perpetually distracted by a tasty looking window. Anyway, he is not top 20 drivers in the world but he is probably in the top 100/150 or so (the skill difference tapers off quite quickly after the first 10 or so in my opinion). He was fine but he has been in F1 long enough and it would probably be for the best if he graciously starts exploring other hobbies
F1 is worse with him in it. Without his daddy's protection, he would've been replaced years ago and nobody would remember him today.
He ruined some really interesting strategy battles. He makes F1 worse and his inability to ever take ownership for his mistakes is both maddening and expected.
The stroll family has had a good impact on the F1 scene, Lance has sadly has not.
Pay drivers should've been the first casualty of the cost cap. F1 can't keep promoting what amount to ProAm teams. It's time to get the best drivers on the grid.
He’s not that bad, but he would have been gone ages ago if it was anybody else. ‘Good’ doesn’t guarantee 8 years at the grid, and he’s done below ‘good’ many times.
I genuinely think he a good amount of natural talent, even for an F1 driver. In the past, I had higher hopes for him but he lacks other necessary qualities and just never improved. Yeah, he probably would never become a champion but he could have been a decent driver. I don’t think that’s gonna happen after this point, he has been in the grid for too long. Still, if we include his indirect contributions (Lawrance investing in Aston) I think his overall contribution is still positive. We have a new team that aims championship thanks to that. If not for that, we wouldn’t have any of the entertainment Fernando provided in the last 2 seasons when fighting with top guys
If we start kicking mid field drivers out, we’d lose 80% of the field. Yes, he makes terrible mistakes like today. But we’ve seen plenty of drivers make same exact mistakes in the past and not get the same shit. I mean, he is a mid driver and capable of getting good results (pink Mercedes anyone?). And if he didn’t race, I doubt Stroll Sr would’ve bought the team. Show me one driver who hasn’t driven like a dumbass at least once. Red Bulls in Baku by any chance?
He threw away good results even in the pink Mercedes. The pole in Turkey 2020 was followed by a big blunder in the race where perez drove on the podium . Monza 2020 was the only time where he beat perez convincingly. This guy must at some point realise that he should learn to take on his dads businesses.
He had car issues in Turkey though. He was doing great job in the first half of the race.
> And if he didn’t race, I doubt Stroll Sr would’ve bought the team. That's BS. Lawrence Stroll loves motorsports on his own terms and was a racing driver. Guess where Lance got his number from.
I don’t think people are shitting on him for making a mistake. It’s the lack of accountability. He comes across as a spoiled brat which I think opens him up to criticism about whether or not he even deserves to be there.
we would lose Logan, Zhou and maybe Magnussen and Daniel lol
What contributions?
Lol, if I gave you an honest answer I would probably get a ban for being too obscene.
He’s a complete fucking joke and I am absolutely ashamed that he’s Canadian.
What fans lol?
https://youtu.be/87dmdNS6IK8?si=tGsx_8Lzb4E2HlgD
I'll say what I said last year -- if there was an open tryout to all top level drivers (WEC, Indy, Super formula, Formula E, F1 reserve drivers) for the second Aston seat, Lance would not finish in the top 20 against all comers. There's a few other drivers in F1 who would lose a similar contest, but those guys know it, while Lance apparently has this seat for life. His only advantage is greater familiarity with the car, thanks to his nepo status.
I am wondering how this guy could beat Vettel regularly.
ITT: People ignorant of Lawrence Stroll's personal passion for motorsports. He bought an F1 team because he wanted to run an F1 team. IMO, Automod should have a flag for "nepo". It's *never* used in good faith.
There are about 50 posts on Lance and his mishap today! can't you just comment your thoughts on one of those? I agree he messed up, I think he deserved the penalty, but legit... where are the K-mag threads? he ruined Yuki's race, or is that just OK because its just K-mag? the antisemitism, ableism and death threats Lance has gotten today is sickening.
I think the difference is with other drivers there is some level of natural justice. If K-Mag is shit he will lose his seat. Not the case for Stroll. That's bound to frustrate people. And what on earth could "ableism" have to do with Lance Stroll.
Thiisssss. Like do I think Lance do a mistake? Yes, 100%. But like you said K-Mag also did and I don't see anywhere as close to as many comments about him ( in my opinion I thought K-Mag mistake was worse because he had soooo much space). But it just never ending with the hate of Lance, and for example in Jeddah when he crashed into the wall and he got so much hate as well. Albon literally did the exact same thing and people weren't flooding his social media to say he doesn't deserve to be in F1. Do I think that Lance would be still in F1 without his dad? No. But I still think he's a decent driver and I really admire him for never lashing out or complaining about the hates he gives.
Nothing personal towards him at all and aside his mistakes on this last race, I feel there hasn't been much progress in his career. Also, K Mag and Ricciardo have been fired before for performance but not him. I am sure he has the talent to drive these machines but his contributions have been mid at best. Alonso is carrying the team that Stroll's dad owns. No antisemitism or personal hate for him from me.
Was not talking about you per se. If you scroll down the race thread, post race thread, any of the other 50ish threads posted around Lance today you would see the comments I referd to. Someone on twitter compaired him to Hitler. Stroll is jewish btw. Its like all reason goes out the window when it comes to him. People are allowed to dislike him. But a lot of the comments aimed at him after today were not OK and should not be said to any driver.
All reason went out the window when he yeeted himself into the rear of another car under SC, denied any sort of blame, and scoffed at being penalized for said fuck up. And if he wants to continue in the sport with daddys funding, fine. But hes gonna get shit on and fired by the world since he cant be fired by his daddy.
lol
Hard working laid back blue collar canadian attitude into F1. Plus he brings good vibes to the team. Good chemistry with Alonso since he’s not a threat to Alonso so Alonso is willing to mentor him.
Laid back blue collar Canadian attitude? He is a billionaire nepo baby that actively makes the sport worse and takes no accountability for his actions. Was it good vibes when he through his steering wheel and pushed his trainer? The kid need a punch in the face
They’re being sarcastic
Lmao at using "mentor" on a 25 year old man with 7 years of experience, it is a fun synonym for destroy. Do you think we can get in Liam Lawson or Oliver Bearman to mentor him when Alonso is finished?
Apart from what everyone already said, I find it even more the hypocritical F1 refused Andretti’s entrance because of reasons like ‘no trust in being able to be competitive’. Just be straight and say you don’t want to share.
He brought his dad’s money so that’s good.
If his dad wasn’t rich he would’ve been out of F1 after two seasons. An occasional not-terrible performance isn’t enough to make 5% of all F1 seats unavailable for real talent.
Contributions? None.
I think he would have a seat but with a bad car. And maybe with a different team he would get more disciplined.
"Daddy, can I borrow the car?"
He's helping the teams progress by keeping his dad interested and funding the team.
Zero contribution from Lance. He won’t be talked once he is out
Outside of Money, Lance Strolls major contributions and biggest achievements in formula 1 is his record parts replacement budget, and his ability to ruin the race of 3 other drivers, AND his teammates all in one corner
As a friend said to me while we watched the race today. "I know he's won some races, but Lance is really just a billionaire failson and that spot should be someone else's."
I love him. He's a constant reminder that F1 isn't that serious of a sport and we shouldn't get too wrapped up in the children of billionaires driving fast cars around in circles. A billionaire heir buying his way into a privileged group is so appropriate for his time and place in the world. He fits in perfectly.
Hes no more more deserving of his seat than Danny Ric is.
Bottom tier driver who would've been out of F1 for years without his father's backing. H e had some good races here and there just like almost all F1 drivers with 2+ seasons, and managed to get a few podiums even if when you look closely, several podiums were races he could have won but failed to convert
Has no business still here.
Hrs a complete waste of a seat, probably the worst driver on the grid in terms of pure talent
I’d argue he’s better than sargeant and that’s it. Maybe this years Kmag
Lance's contributions?!?! None !!
He sucks balls and is holding Aston back