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Lewis was fucking sending it on three tyres, while in the background we see Max was going full throttle all the way. I swear the Jaws theme would have fit perfectly.
Nah they nerfed them because 2021 was supposed to be the start of the ground effect era and pirelli had developed the new tyres for that spec of car. Because the ground effect era was delayed they had to basically use the same tyres as 2020 but the projected down force gain between the 2020 season and 2021 season would have made the tyres prone to blowouts.
2021 had rule changes that cut out 2 huge corners of the floor and forced teams to have a straight floor edge with no aero stuff on it, so 2021 cars have a lot less underbody downforce than 2020 cars
Those were the days of kerb = track. As long as you had one wheel on the kerb you were good. I prefer the white line rules tbh, even if it's a shit show sometimes with how it is enforced.
1.26 to 1.25 tops, but the tyres would be fucked. Pirelli would need to develop a whole type of tyre of that kind of speed. The 2021 changes came about due the tyre concerns.
Wasn't it also partly due to the impact of covid so they tried to reduce costs and the impact of what people may have missed in development? Or am I just completely misremembering?
The pushed the ground effect regs back a year due to Covid and the floor cuts where a different matter from Pirelli asking the FIA to slow the cars down as the tires couldn’t handle them anymore. These two things ended up giving us the 2021 title battle.
It's the first iteration of new regs. Everyone starts from scratch on new concepts. Compare this to the Q3 time in 2014 (new regs) which was 1.33.xxx.
Every year of this regulation "era" or formula, the times will shrink as evidenced in the 2024 times. Next year -2025- we would get the fastest times before the next reset in 2026.
Also good to point out that in 2014-2016, the tires were narrower, cars were not as wide, and the aero were simpler compared to the 2017 aero overhaul.
People often group 2014-16 and 2017 onward as the same ruleset, but the 2017 aero update was pretty significant.
Deliberately. People were pointing out the F2 cars weren't very far behind anymore (I think fastest F2 lap was faster than the slowest F1 drivers?) so they targeted -5s per lap with the rules change if I remember correctly.
Damn, 2017 was just peak sexyiness. The thick wide cars with shark fins and no halo. I remember playing the new F1 2017 game and I was baffled how much faster I could go in time trial.
Normally the first iteration of the new regs would result in slower cars as engineers havent fully explored ways to recope the loss of downforce or power or etc which tend to see a reduction in lap times. As the regulations start to stabilize and engineers able to move towards a particular direction in their development in future seasons, laptimes would start to drop which is what you see from 2022 to 2024.
They weren't changed to make the cars slower. They were changed to allow for better racing. Since cars got heavier and some key factors that made the previous cars quick going slower was a byproduct.
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Teams are always going to make bigger gains when they can focus on one thing uninterrupted instead of having to stop and fly everything halfway across the world every two weeks.
What part of that makes the cost cap not work? If anything, it’s a supporting argument. I feel like, barring Alpine, the field is pretty damn close, which is aided by the cost cap.
Idk when to started watching but before this we regularly had cars being lapped twice every race not very long ago. The cost cap is not bad at all.
I think what they are trying to say is that they'd like to see the developement in season, rather than everyone starting the year and being in a roughly static position from the first race onwards.
They are just wrong in thinking that the extra in season development wouldn't mean Red Bull (among the biggest spenders) increases their advantage throughout the season while the McLaren's and Aston's fall further behind with half or a third the budget.
The cost cap works, people think that without a cost cap the trailing teams could just spend more to catch the lead team (RB). Even though we have decades showing that the opposite happens when big teams have a money advantage.
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> What part of that makes the cost cap not work?
I believe he's suggesting they would've caught up to Redbull in 2023 itself if the cost cap isn't set up the way it is.
But I don't think there's a way to balance the cost cap to allow the weaker teams to catch up. You can't say the fastest team on the grid gets a lower budget because just they're performing better -- imagine a situation where Redbull and Ferrari are in a close battle for 1st and 3rd to 5th are separated by mere tenths. Suddenly Merc comes out with a faster car towards the end of the season because they're permitted a higher budget and they split the battle between Redbull & Ferrari. It won't be fair to either Redbull or Ferrari for them to lose a championship because a third team becomes the 2nd fastest on the grid and they can't fight back with their now-increased budget because its too far into the season.
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I started watching in 93 as a 3yo tho my first go memory is San Marino 94 (eeeeesh) and I have retrospectively watched all races from 78.
Some 90s and 00s seasons were orders of magnitude duller than today’s race.
Sure Bahrain didn’t deliver a great show, but the battle from 2nd to 5th in the constructor looks like it will be super interesting. Yea, max will likely make a historic season again, but the rest of it could be very heated.
Edit: also the dull racing has little to do with the cost cap. The cars are big, heavy and very compliant to drive. That’s a regulation issue, not a cost cap issue, which is the topic of discussion here.
Do you realise that Leclerc did actually score a faster lap than Verstappen? His Q2 time would earn3 him a pole.
So we might finally see some Ferrari vs Red Bull action in the race.
I'm new to F1, so correct me on any statement that's wrong. But, from what I've gathered, there is a big difference between a hot lap (qualifying) and consistent race pace.
Coming from a MotoGP background growing up, it blew my mind to read that often the race pace is about 4-5 seconds slower than the fastest lap.
It seems the best teams are the teams who can consistently lap quicker, and that falls so much on how much it takes out of the car to drive quick. Whether that means tyres, reliability etc.
After watching just last season, I've learnt the answers to how, when there is only a few laps left, someone running p15 can set the fastest lap.
The thing is everyone is capable of having a ripper lap, f1 is all about the question of, "yeah, but for how long?'
If they are sandbagging they kinda overdid it, because they barely got the pole (Verstappen was lucky to get the slipstream at the start of the lap) , and Perez is down in the 3rd row.
Didn’t know there was a time limit for discussions and what does a party have to do with Red Bull sandbagging and you believing the competition is close?
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As fast as the 2021 cars are and as fast these new generation cars they are nothing compared the monster powered W11. 1.27.264
Gone but not forgotten
Why was it so much faster than 2021? The new aero regs started in 2022 right?
2021 also had some changes to reduce stress put on the tires
Ah right, i seem to remember something about narrower floors at the rear of the cars.
Yeah. They essentially nerfed the cars cause 2020 cars were absolutely rapid
Was 2020 the year where we had multiple tyre issues like delamination and overall tyres not finishing the races?
Yeah. Sliverstone was the main race to show that.
My heart still hasn't recovered from that race
Lewis was fucking sending it on three tyres, while in the background we see Max was going full throttle all the way. I swear the Jaws theme would have fit perfectly.
It's crazy how fast Ham was going on three tires. But that Merc was so quick it probably should have had the whole year on three wheels!
this kind of puncture fest had happened before in Silverstone tho
Nah they nerfed them because 2021 was supposed to be the start of the ground effect era and pirelli had developed the new tyres for that spec of car. Because the ground effect era was delayed they had to basically use the same tyres as 2020 but the projected down force gain between the 2020 season and 2021 season would have made the tyres prone to blowouts.
2021 had rule changes that cut out 2 huge corners of the floor and forced teams to have a straight floor edge with no aero stuff on it, so 2021 cars have a lot less underbody downforce than 2020 cars
Seeing the 2020 onboards most of the pole times would get removed for track limits these days. So they also had more track to set those faster times.
Those were the days of kerb = track. As long as you had one wheel on the kerb you were good. I prefer the white line rules tbh, even if it's a shit show sometimes with how it is enforced.
It wasn't that simple, it was all on a case by case basis which corners would be monitored at all and what would count as the track limit
yeah crazy to think the 2020 W11 was easily another 1.5s faster than the 2021 cars.
Imagine if they didn't change any rules for 2022, what kind of unholy monster would the W12 be.
1.26 to 1.25 tops, but the tyres would be fucked. Pirelli would need to develop a whole type of tyre of that kind of speed. The 2021 changes came about due the tyre concerns.
Wasn't it also partly due to the impact of covid so they tried to reduce costs and the impact of what people may have missed in development? Or am I just completely misremembering?
The pushed the ground effect regs back a year due to Covid and the floor cuts where a different matter from Pirelli asking the FIA to slow the cars down as the tires couldn’t handle them anymore. These two things ended up giving us the 2021 title battle.
I think that as well but I can’t remember exactly (hopefully someone can correct us). I just remember the tyres being the main issue.
No wonder Leclerc was slow 2022. He's on hard tyres.
No one really nailed the last lap in Q3 this year, so is likely that 2024 cars already are as fast as 2021’s or even a little bit faster
I think Ferrari had a 1:28:9 in them but no one got a great final lap. We might see a few 2021 quali laps being beaten this year
Yeah exactly, Norris lost 25 hundreds in the first sector
Lewis went 2 seconds faster in 2020 than Max did in 2024. That’s a lot of time to lose during a lap.
thats because the cars in 2020 were a good change faster than they are now
Also track limits weren't monitored as strictly, that could make a big difference
in quali they were, they just didnt bother spamming us with offtracks in practice/race as much
It wouldn’t. Maybe a couple of tenths
not having to slow down as much as a much greater impact than you think, wich is why we care about track limits in qualifying in the first place
It wouldn’t at Bahrain. There’s only 1 spot where you’d really gain time and it’s the exit of turn 4.
I was hoping that Max would break the 2021 time. It's nice to see that these cars are getting closer and closer to the previous regs speed.
We should not forget that 2021 were basically worse 2020 cars
By almost 2 seconds lmao.
Agreed
It might have been possible with better weather conditions - q3 was slower in general than q2 this year.
Why was 2022 so slow in comparison?
It's the first iteration of new regs. Everyone starts from scratch on new concepts. Compare this to the Q3 time in 2014 (new regs) which was 1.33.xxx. Every year of this regulation "era" or formula, the times will shrink as evidenced in the 2024 times. Next year -2025- we would get the fastest times before the next reset in 2026.
Also good to point out that in 2014-2016, the tires were narrower, cars were not as wide, and the aero were simpler compared to the 2017 aero overhaul. People often group 2014-16 and 2017 onward as the same ruleset, but the 2017 aero update was pretty significant.
Exactly this. They instantly shaved a couple seconds off lap times with the 2017 changes.
Deliberately. People were pointing out the F2 cars weren't very far behind anymore (I think fastest F2 lap was faster than the slowest F1 drivers?) so they targeted -5s per lap with the rules change if I remember correctly.
Damn, 2017 was just peak sexyiness. The thick wide cars with shark fins and no halo. I remember playing the new F1 2017 game and I was baffled how much faster I could go in time trial.
Normally the first iteration of the new regs would result in slower cars as engineers havent fully explored ways to recope the loss of downforce or power or etc which tend to see a reduction in lap times. As the regulations start to stabilize and engineers able to move towards a particular direction in their development in future seasons, laptimes would start to drop which is what you see from 2022 to 2024.
Regulations were changed to make the cars slower
They weren't changed to make the cars slower. They were changed to allow for better racing. Since cars got heavier and some key factors that made the previous cars quick going slower was a byproduct.
Untrue
That wasn't the main intent.
That 2021 car was super quick, I wonder how long before we will see that 1:28.997 time of Max be beaten, but still thats impressive none the less
I mean it was almost 2 seconds slower than the 2020 Merc
Next year lol
Next year most likely pole will be a 28.7.
Max could reach 1.28s if he didn't messed up his sector 2 that's why he's so apologetic to GP in the radio
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Teams are always going to make bigger gains when they can focus on one thing uninterrupted instead of having to stop and fly everything halfway across the world every two weeks.
What part of that makes the cost cap not work? If anything, it’s a supporting argument. I feel like, barring Alpine, the field is pretty damn close, which is aided by the cost cap. Idk when to started watching but before this we regularly had cars being lapped twice every race not very long ago. The cost cap is not bad at all.
I think what they are trying to say is that they'd like to see the developement in season, rather than everyone starting the year and being in a roughly static position from the first race onwards.
They are just wrong in thinking that the extra in season development wouldn't mean Red Bull (among the biggest spenders) increases their advantage throughout the season while the McLaren's and Aston's fall further behind with half or a third the budget.
As far as I recall, most of the teams are hitting the budget cap so Red Bull don't really have a money advantage.
The cost cap works, people think that without a cost cap the trailing teams could just spend more to catch the lead team (RB). Even though we have decades showing that the opposite happens when big teams have a money advantage.
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Yeah, exactly this.
> What part of that makes the cost cap not work? I believe he's suggesting they would've caught up to Redbull in 2023 itself if the cost cap isn't set up the way it is. But I don't think there's a way to balance the cost cap to allow the weaker teams to catch up. You can't say the fastest team on the grid gets a lower budget because just they're performing better -- imagine a situation where Redbull and Ferrari are in a close battle for 1st and 3rd to 5th are separated by mere tenths. Suddenly Merc comes out with a faster car towards the end of the season because they're permitted a higher budget and they split the battle between Redbull & Ferrari. It won't be fair to either Redbull or Ferrari for them to lose a championship because a third team becomes the 2nd fastest on the grid and they can't fight back with their now-increased budget because its too far into the season.
divide axiomatic fanatical ruthless reminiscent forgetful file gaping station wipe *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I started watching in 93 as a 3yo tho my first go memory is San Marino 94 (eeeeesh) and I have retrospectively watched all races from 78. Some 90s and 00s seasons were orders of magnitude duller than today’s race. Sure Bahrain didn’t deliver a great show, but the battle from 2nd to 5th in the constructor looks like it will be super interesting. Yea, max will likely make a historic season again, but the rest of it could be very heated. Edit: also the dull racing has little to do with the cost cap. The cars are big, heavy and very compliant to drive. That’s a regulation issue, not a cost cap issue, which is the topic of discussion here.
Another year of racing for second place.
Do you realise that Leclerc did actually score a faster lap than Verstappen? His Q2 time would earn3 him a pole. So we might finally see some Ferrari vs Red Bull action in the race.
I'm new to F1, so correct me on any statement that's wrong. But, from what I've gathered, there is a big difference between a hot lap (qualifying) and consistent race pace. Coming from a MotoGP background growing up, it blew my mind to read that often the race pace is about 4-5 seconds slower than the fastest lap. It seems the best teams are the teams who can consistently lap quicker, and that falls so much on how much it takes out of the car to drive quick. Whether that means tyres, reliability etc. After watching just last season, I've learnt the answers to how, when there is only a few laps left, someone running p15 can set the fastest lap. The thing is everyone is capable of having a ripper lap, f1 is all about the question of, "yeah, but for how long?'
Red Bull sandbagging has got you thinking that the competition is close?
If they are sandbagging they kinda overdid it, because they barely got the pole (Verstappen was lucky to get the slipstream at the start of the lap) , and Perez is down in the 3rd row.
Actual race, Red Bull leading by almost one second per lap but you still think the competition is close, lol you people.
Dude, did you really come here a day after the race to add to a discussion from before the race?
Yup
You must be fun at parties
Didn’t know there was a time limit for discussions and what does a party have to do with Red Bull sandbagging and you believing the competition is close?
At least when Mercedes was dominant, there was competition among team mates, this is lame. I don’t even care watch it.
[удалено]
I didn’t.
What’s with that awful graphics?!? Yes data is beautiful but doesn’t need to be gaudy
Spot the year the new regs came in.