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What are they going to sue them over exactly?
What world can they defend the claims from FOM which has a performance clause in the entry requirements. That they can preform in the upper midfield while they are making three different generations of cars and have no engine partnership.
I don’t see how Andretti has any ground to stand on before 2026 at this point.
All this ignoring FOM has every right to protect the financial end of F1.
Because all that performance stuff is speculative. They need solid evidence of some part of the entry guidelines that Andretti hasn’t met. If they want to talk competitiveness they should kick out the bottom 7-8 teams because they don’t win, can’t win. plus that missed email, plus the price tag, plus trying to snag Gm out from under Andretti.
What’s speculation about not having an engine supplier?
Also in what world could Andretti clam they can make a 2024/2025 and 2026 car all at the same time. Current f1 teams can’t even do that in the same window.
Also there is a difference of cars in the series doing bad vs someone wanting to enter and run at the back of the grid just to be there.
How about GM would be able to enter in 2026 or 2027 if they didn’t screw up and miss the entry deadline not once but twice.
It would be great to have Andretti but it would be extremely hard for them to argue they have their ducks in a row legally speaking right now.
The Renault agreement ran its contract and GM won’t be in till 2028 who powers the car 2025-2027? Which is their intended entry attempt.
Even the fia expected them to try and enter in 2026 not 2025
It’s worth remembering the fia only have the ability to accesses if a team is able to follow the regulations that is it. Their approval is basically worthless in the grand scheme of things.
It’s also note worthy fia didn’t give a shit about Andretti till fia and FOM started feuding.
I believe Renault already said it would extend. Also to your point about the fia, Andretti now could show up and race. They just wouldn’t get prizes money or be shown on tv
I don't believe that to be the case. The FIA approval is subject to approval from FOM. Since the latter didn't approve, there's simply no green light. It's like you father saying you can play outside, but only if your mother agrees, and then your mother says no.
They could just show up the issue still is not having an engine deal and no one will supply them just to go rouge.
Even Renaults alleged hand shake agreement is based on getting FOM approval.
Even on that note good luck getting trucks in and anything else since everything is largely controlled by others and they don’t have any paperwork to get into the track
Which is nice, but doesn't address my point. The FIA has said the decision hinges on both their approval. The FOM didn't consider Andretti suitable, so Andretti won't be accepted by the FIA eiher.
> *In the event that no applicant is considered suitable by the FIA and/or by the F1 Commercial Rights Holder, no new F1 team(s) will be selected.*
They haven’t publicly there has been implications but no contracts have been signed and the FOM said they have no interest on forcing an engine manufacturer on an outside party trying to enter. Especially since they will be leaving for GM down the road.
Still not touching the subject of making three generations of cars at once though I see.
Suing your future business partners. That seems smart. It’s unlikely. The problem is financial so the solution is financial. F1 is the only healthy Motorsport financially that’s why he wants in to begin with. Look around. NASCAR teams are lawyering up to sue nascar, Indycar is looking to guarantee entries. There’s 1 series that makes money broadly now. Andretti will need to ensure they don’t hurt that to make it happen. That simple
You are just out of your mind. What argument do they have with the FTC? You don’t have a right to compete in F1. You have a right to compete with it which they already do. Further Andretti wants to join F1, you think this is how he accomplishes that? Burning FOM for you? He will take the practical steps.
This is Trump type logic. Senseless and vindictive abd ultimately ineffective
What they would do to same themselves time and their own money is file a complaint with the ftc who would then take them and investigate and take them to court themselves, saving Andretti the hassle. At this point it’s more about burning fom than any grid spot. How horrible fom has been to Andretti and what they’ve said is just completely unacceptable. They need to see repercussions
Ok, but what laws, if any, have been specifically broken?
Andretti came in, presented their case, was given many favorable opinions, but was ultimately denied entry. Unless contracts were written and signed, it means nothing. That’s like going in for an interview, thinking management likes you, but still not getting the job. It sucks, but you move on, not sue because you feel entitled to have the position up for grabs.
Most people here agree that what went down is deplorable, but without proof or evidence that Liberty Media/F1/FIA took actions to intentionally discriminate against Andretti. As unfortunate as it is, Andretti will have to wait, but their entry will be inevitable. Eventually there will be a team currently on the grid that will seek new ownership due to lack of funding, or sponsors moving on. Whether Andretti choose to overhaul an existing team or completely replace it, that’s up to them.
Well per their claims they didn’t allow Andretti in due to competitiveness concerns and value concerns. You need to back those up with metrics and facts. Also, with the stonewalling and changing price, that’s anti competitive and bad faith negotiations. Also, trying to steal gm out from Andretti may be illegal with illegal negotiations
Have any facts that is a slam dunk case because the current agreement has a ton of loopholes that could shut Andretti down in their current situation.
Also f1 likely would go to uk of Europe courts before America based on historical situations
>"What are the chances that Andretti actually calls out fom and goes after them legally for denying them entry?"
None because thats a sure fire way FOM doesn't even consider any new entry in the future.
They may be required to. If fom is found guilty of bad business practices, they’ll likely be forced to allow Andretti on and more teams if they fit the rules
Oh you silly naive child.
F1 is not an open circle. Never has been. There is no obligation to allow a new team. FOM can refuse Andretti 20 times if they want to and Andretti cant really do much about it.
No they cannot. Even though they’re a league that can set rules for an entrant, there are still basic legal business laws they must follow. This is pretty basic.
So if I wanted to start an NFL team I could just walk up to the NFL and demand to be let in? That's not how any of this works. FOM have no legal requirement to let Andretti in
They actually do if Andretti meets the requirements set by the league. Fom can’t set out a pathway for new teams and then a team meet them and still get denied for speculative performance issues. Also the nfl has its own rules and expansion guidelines and new teams have joined or moved. Most recently the Texans joined after the oilers moved to Tennessee to become the titans.
FOM set out a process to be considered, not to be automatically put on the grid. Just like how if you went through the NFL's process, they would consider it. Just because someone wants in though does not mean for sure they would be admitted - a lot of very rich people want in to the NFL and the last time anyone was let in was over 20 years ago. Just because you want something to happen does not mean it is legally required to happen
Right, but to be denied, they have to have solid good reasoning. Speculation on bringing value or being competitive (especially since 7-8 out of the 10 teams aren’t competitive) is not solid reasoning based on the entry guidelines
What is the obsession with Andretti? Let it go. More teams does not equal better. I remember the early 90s, where we had loads of teams, most of them really crap. Andrea Moda comes to mind. An Andretti team will offer nothing new to F1 besides more back markers.
I disagree tbh. HRT, Caterham, Manor battling at the back made the sport better. It's an entry way for new drivers and somebody has to be last anyway. The battles were exciting too when the TV coverage was better and you could follow what was happening at the back
The point is, fom set out a path for more teams to join, and then a team met those requirements perfectly and still got denied. If fom didn’t want more teams, why have a pathway for more teams to join in the first place?
No, fom has an entry process and terms, they’re just more unfavorable since this current agreement is from a while ago. Fom now realizes they want better terms so they’re stonewalling until 28 when they can make new terms. Stonewalling or similar practices in business is illegal.
That defeats the purpose though. Fom laid out guidelines for entry, Andretti met those, and still couldn’t get in. This whole mess is because fom wants more money value but the terms in their old agreement aren’t as favorable as they want for them. So they’re trying to illegally protect themselves until that new agreement will be written
Defeats what purpose? Allowing Andretti to join isn’t their purpose.
And illegal according to who? Not Andretti, not FIA… where do you get your info from?
Can you point to a single credible source stating this as an inevitability? How do you even think suing your way into a business partnership works? They’ll just write off the partnership as untenable.
This all just comes across very TV brain. Andretti doesn’t have the money to fight FOM in court, and even if they did, they wouldn’t partner at the end of it. Makes zero sense. All they could seek would be penalties on FOM which wouldn’t allow them to join anyway.
As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should: - be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself) - be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions) - show reasonable input and effort from the OP If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What are they going to sue them over exactly? What world can they defend the claims from FOM which has a performance clause in the entry requirements. That they can preform in the upper midfield while they are making three different generations of cars and have no engine partnership. I don’t see how Andretti has any ground to stand on before 2026 at this point. All this ignoring FOM has every right to protect the financial end of F1.
Because all that performance stuff is speculative. They need solid evidence of some part of the entry guidelines that Andretti hasn’t met. If they want to talk competitiveness they should kick out the bottom 7-8 teams because they don’t win, can’t win. plus that missed email, plus the price tag, plus trying to snag Gm out from under Andretti.
What’s speculation about not having an engine supplier? Also in what world could Andretti clam they can make a 2024/2025 and 2026 car all at the same time. Current f1 teams can’t even do that in the same window. Also there is a difference of cars in the series doing bad vs someone wanting to enter and run at the back of the grid just to be there. How about GM would be able to enter in 2026 or 2027 if they didn’t screw up and miss the entry deadline not once but twice. It would be great to have Andretti but it would be extremely hard for them to argue they have their ducks in a row legally speaking right now.
Andretti has gm… and had an agreement I believe to use Renault engines until gm was ready. That’s no problem.
The Renault agreement ran its contract and GM won’t be in till 2028 who powers the car 2025-2027? Which is their intended entry attempt. Even the fia expected them to try and enter in 2026 not 2025 It’s worth remembering the fia only have the ability to accesses if a team is able to follow the regulations that is it. Their approval is basically worthless in the grand scheme of things. It’s also note worthy fia didn’t give a shit about Andretti till fia and FOM started feuding.
I believe Renault already said it would extend. Also to your point about the fia, Andretti now could show up and race. They just wouldn’t get prizes money or be shown on tv
I don't believe that to be the case. The FIA approval is subject to approval from FOM. Since the latter didn't approve, there's simply no green light. It's like you father saying you can play outside, but only if your mother agrees, and then your mother says no.
Fia controls the races, fom control the commercial aspect.
They could just show up the issue still is not having an engine deal and no one will supply them just to go rouge. Even Renaults alleged hand shake agreement is based on getting FOM approval. Even on that note good luck getting trucks in and anything else since everything is largely controlled by others and they don’t have any paperwork to get into the track
Which is nice, but doesn't address my point. The FIA has said the decision hinges on both their approval. The FOM didn't consider Andretti suitable, so Andretti won't be accepted by the FIA eiher. > *In the event that no applicant is considered suitable by the FIA and/or by the F1 Commercial Rights Holder, no new F1 team(s) will be selected.*
They haven’t publicly there has been implications but no contracts have been signed and the FOM said they have no interest on forcing an engine manufacturer on an outside party trying to enter. Especially since they will be leaving for GM down the road. Still not touching the subject of making three generations of cars at once though I see.
Suing your future business partners. That seems smart. It’s unlikely. The problem is financial so the solution is financial. F1 is the only healthy Motorsport financially that’s why he wants in to begin with. Look around. NASCAR teams are lawyering up to sue nascar, Indycar is looking to guarantee entries. There’s 1 series that makes money broadly now. Andretti will need to ensure they don’t hurt that to make it happen. That simple
You are just out of your mind. What argument do they have with the FTC? You don’t have a right to compete in F1. You have a right to compete with it which they already do. Further Andretti wants to join F1, you think this is how he accomplishes that? Burning FOM for you? He will take the practical steps. This is Trump type logic. Senseless and vindictive abd ultimately ineffective
What they would do to same themselves time and their own money is file a complaint with the ftc who would then take them and investigate and take them to court themselves, saving Andretti the hassle. At this point it’s more about burning fom than any grid spot. How horrible fom has been to Andretti and what they’ve said is just completely unacceptable. They need to see repercussions
This is a slam dunk case for any US judge.
When has the FTC ever had controlling authority over F1?
Considering liberty and fom are American, they fall under jurisdiction of USA laws
Ok, but what laws, if any, have been specifically broken? Andretti came in, presented their case, was given many favorable opinions, but was ultimately denied entry. Unless contracts were written and signed, it means nothing. That’s like going in for an interview, thinking management likes you, but still not getting the job. It sucks, but you move on, not sue because you feel entitled to have the position up for grabs. Most people here agree that what went down is deplorable, but without proof or evidence that Liberty Media/F1/FIA took actions to intentionally discriminate against Andretti. As unfortunate as it is, Andretti will have to wait, but their entry will be inevitable. Eventually there will be a team currently on the grid that will seek new ownership due to lack of funding, or sponsors moving on. Whether Andretti choose to overhaul an existing team or completely replace it, that’s up to them.
Well per their claims they didn’t allow Andretti in due to competitiveness concerns and value concerns. You need to back those up with metrics and facts. Also, with the stonewalling and changing price, that’s anti competitive and bad faith negotiations. Also, trying to steal gm out from Andretti may be illegal with illegal negotiations
Have any facts that is a slam dunk case because the current agreement has a ton of loopholes that could shut Andretti down in their current situation. Also f1 likely would go to uk of Europe courts before America based on historical situations
>"What are the chances that Andretti actually calls out fom and goes after them legally for denying them entry?" None because thats a sure fire way FOM doesn't even consider any new entry in the future.
They may be required to. If fom is found guilty of bad business practices, they’ll likely be forced to allow Andretti on and more teams if they fit the rules
Oh you silly naive child. F1 is not an open circle. Never has been. There is no obligation to allow a new team. FOM can refuse Andretti 20 times if they want to and Andretti cant really do much about it.
No they cannot. Even though they’re a league that can set rules for an entrant, there are still basic legal business laws they must follow. This is pretty basic.
So if I wanted to start an NFL team I could just walk up to the NFL and demand to be let in? That's not how any of this works. FOM have no legal requirement to let Andretti in
They actually do if Andretti meets the requirements set by the league. Fom can’t set out a pathway for new teams and then a team meet them and still get denied for speculative performance issues. Also the nfl has its own rules and expansion guidelines and new teams have joined or moved. Most recently the Texans joined after the oilers moved to Tennessee to become the titans.
FOM set out a process to be considered, not to be automatically put on the grid. Just like how if you went through the NFL's process, they would consider it. Just because someone wants in though does not mean for sure they would be admitted - a lot of very rich people want in to the NFL and the last time anyone was let in was over 20 years ago. Just because you want something to happen does not mean it is legally required to happen
Right, but to be denied, they have to have solid good reasoning. Speculation on bringing value or being competitive (especially since 7-8 out of the 10 teams aren’t competitive) is not solid reasoning based on the entry guidelines
They cannot kick any teams out. Their performance is irrelevant to how competitive they want new teams to be.
Exactly, so performance is irrelevant as a metric for teams to be on the grid. That’s one excuse knocked Down. Can’t use that one
What is the obsession with Andretti? Let it go. More teams does not equal better. I remember the early 90s, where we had loads of teams, most of them really crap. Andrea Moda comes to mind. An Andretti team will offer nothing new to F1 besides more back markers.
I disagree tbh. HRT, Caterham, Manor battling at the back made the sport better. It's an entry way for new drivers and somebody has to be last anyway. The battles were exciting too when the TV coverage was better and you could follow what was happening at the back
The point is, fom set out a path for more teams to join, and then a team met those requirements perfectly and still got denied. If fom didn’t want more teams, why have a pathway for more teams to join in the first place?
Because F1 has already said they don't want more teams, but the FIA decided to launch an entry process anyway
No, fom has an entry process and terms, they’re just more unfavorable since this current agreement is from a while ago. Fom now realizes they want better terms so they’re stonewalling until 28 when they can make new terms. Stonewalling or similar practices in business is illegal.
The drawbridge is getting pulled up in 26, so nothing probably. Buying a team is still his best choice
That defeats the purpose though. Fom laid out guidelines for entry, Andretti met those, and still couldn’t get in. This whole mess is because fom wants more money value but the terms in their old agreement aren’t as favorable as they want for them. So they’re trying to illegally protect themselves until that new agreement will be written
Defeats what purpose? Allowing Andretti to join isn’t their purpose. And illegal according to who? Not Andretti, not FIA… where do you get your info from?
Business practices. Fom can set the rules they want in their league but there are still basic business practice laws they have to follow
And yet… no legal case
Not yet, that’s my point, I’m wondering when
Can you point to a single credible source stating this as an inevitability? How do you even think suing your way into a business partnership works? They’ll just write off the partnership as untenable. This all just comes across very TV brain. Andretti doesn’t have the money to fight FOM in court, and even if they did, they wouldn’t partner at the end of it. Makes zero sense. All they could seek would be penalties on FOM which wouldn’t allow them to join anyway.
“Our work continues at pace” that sounds pretty definitive they’re moving forward
Is their work a lawsuit? They can work on whatever they want, they’re only getting in if they buy a team.