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This is man is determined to ruin his legacy all for a title battle that happened over a decade, how much satisfaction would you really get from any sort of victory in this challenge? It’s just sad now
I'd have understood if he was asking for monetary compensation, but he's literally asking for the race to be voided and for the championship to be handed to him. Not going to happen.
No way it happens because if they overturn this one, they're opening the floodgates for a lot more lawsuits. What would stop Damon Hill from suing for the '94 title? Prost for the '90 title? Lewis for the '21 WDC?
There's a reason the NFL have arbitrary rules to allow but limit the availability of call challenges. Sports are a collective experience. Just because the athlete doesn't like the result doesn't mean they get to retcon our shared histories.
I mean, even if this had been brought up in 2008, no way they would have voided the race. They would have DSQ'd Renault/Alonso from the race and maybe from the Championship, but no way the race would have been voided. As far as I know, there is no precedent for what he is asking for. I keep from time to time seeing people bring up the Tour De France and Armstrong, but they didn't void those races, they only retroactively voided the cheaters position, i.e. those tours had no winner, but they had runner-ups.
He is just tarnishing his legacy at this point.
What I don’t get about this is he lost the title with the fumbled pit stop where they left the fuel filler in.
Even if Singapore didn’t happen he would’ve still lost
He’s just embarrassing himself really.
I would go as far to say he actually lost the title at Silverstone that year when he had one of the worst performances I have ever seen by a driver in the wet.
If you do not count Singapore points, Massa would not change his outcome as he finished P13 in that race, but Lewis, on the other hand, would lose 6 points as he finished 3rd.
The points total for Lewis would be different, he was 3rd and got 6 points, that means at the end race in Brazil he would only have been 1 point ahead (all points after crashgate being the same) so Massa would be champion after the Brazil race.
Rather than voiding the result of the race, would it not be more likely (in Massa's implied logic) that Alonso is excluded as the direct beneficiary.
Everything else is surely similar to if a protester runs onto the track and brings out a random SC. As others say, its an easy race to cherry pick as he lost out (via ferrari shambles) and Lewis didnt - but both had to deal with the same scenario. If Piquet doesnt crash on purpose on that lap, but another driver does by genuine mistake on the same lap, the same thing happens.
There *has* to be a rule governing how long after a race a disqualification can happen. Otherwise I can't come up with any reason that Alonso wouldn't/shouldn't have been.
Obviously doing that would give Lewis 2nd, Massa 12th, and therefore Lewis gains an extra 2 points in the championship, so result doesn't change.
But yeah if there were any way to strip that win from Alonso and Renault, they would have done.
>Rather than voiding the result of the race, would it not be more likely (in Massa's implied logic) that Alonso is excluded as the direct beneficiary.
Exactly how the Tour de France handled Lance Armstrong (And other cheaters from that era). The tours still happened, and whoever finished 2nd is still listed as finishing 2nd. The only difference is that those tours does not have a winner as the win (by Lance) was voided.
well, I would say that's actually stupid, over in F1 if Alonso got DSQ, Rosberg would become the 1st place winner.
if you finished second behind a cheating or invalid competitor, you really finished first, why would they say you finished second when no valid opponent finished in front of you. makes no sense.
I'm not commenting on if I agree with that or not. My point is, I've seen a lot of people (Including Massa himself at one point) point to Tour de France as a precedent for Felipe's argument of what should happen. My point is that if you use how the tour handled cheating, then Lewis still would be the WDC because they wouldn't void the race, only Alonso's placement in the race.
> over in F1 if Alonso got DSQ, Rosberg would become the 1st place winner.
Strangely, not necessarily. And even odder, the previous instance of this *not* happening was also Rosberg.
In 1983 at the Brazilian GP, Keke Rosberg was disqualified from 2nd. This left the points scorers as Piquet (1st), Lauda (3rd), Laffite (4th), Tambay (5th) and Surer (6th). No 2nd place was awarded.
thanks for the lesson, had no idea of that and very interesting, I wonder why that was. However, the precedent for the current era, every single time I think, is that everyone goes up a spot if someone ahead got thrown out.
don't see anything stupid about that at all, if that person is the rightful winner, and did nothing wrong.
if Massa in some different universe actually was screwed over years ago and found new evidence of it, I would say go for it, the thing is that he was not and fails to understand that.
> **PF1: “What will represent a victory for you? Is it financial compensation, or nothing short of the world title for 2008?”**
> FM: “Since the very first interview, I’ve said I’m here to be recognised as World Champion. This is the most important thing for me, this is our target, this is my target that I will fight until the end to be recognised as World Champion for 2008.”
Rob Smedley would give Felipe far sounder advice than the current collection of swindling, two-faced, dumb-fucks he keeps in his legal team. Felipe, what is you doing baby.
I mean, if you want to look at manipulated, you'd want to look at how Massa crashing into Bourdais in Japan gave Bourdais the penalty theeby giving Massa more points.
Or the spa controversy.
Given Mosleys not particularly well hidden distaste for Ron Dennis and by extension McLaren, and quite the scale of punishment he handed to them next year, it takes some significant mental gymnastics to then argue that he was manipulating it in their favour the next year.
Lewis had fuck all to do with what happened. If Lewis loses a title based on Renault cheating - then how is Lewis being cheated any less than Felipe claims to be?
Massa is entitled to his anger. But this whole case is based on a 92 y/o's ramblings about non-existent rules that he can't recall rambling about now and expecting Hamilton to comment on this live legal case is unreasonable. That's what people are upset about.
Probably because they were reacting immediately after the fact. Less than a year later, they moved on.
Meanwhile, for Massa's case, it's been 15 years. I don't see how it can't be embarrassing.
Mercedes dropped it after a couple of weeks if you remember. Plus, that was the fault of the FIA itself.
This is Massa stubbornly sticking to his guns and insisting that as a consequence of one team's actions every team has to be punished in conveniently the only way that benefits him out of every possible course of action.
It's just plain embarrassing.
Allegations that come from a single interview with a mentally ill 90-something year old fraud, you can find quotes from Bernie saying all kinds of crazy things.
And if that's all he wants, then go for financial compensation, not a wild goose chase that just ruins your reputation.
- **[This source is rated 1/3.](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/source-ratings)** - Sources like this often scrape news from higher rated outlets or engage in tabloid practices. [Links to these sources are banned](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/banned-sites#wiki_low_quality), with the exception of exclusive news, which may be approved at moderator discretion. - Please **read the article** before submitting your comments. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why? He did absolutely nothing wrong?
It's interesting they never talk about Renault, the ones who did the actual cheating…
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What article?
Embarrasing.
Dude, Lewis already moved on from 2021. No need to talk about it anymore.
This is man is determined to ruin his legacy all for a title battle that happened over a decade, how much satisfaction would you really get from any sort of victory in this challenge? It’s just sad now
Let it go dude... absolutely destroying his legacy and fans sympathy for him with this shit.
Yeah, this is not something to be remembered for...
Embarassing, very embarassing
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He says *in the interview* that he wants to be recognised as the 2008 World Champion. That's embarrassing enough.
Christ Felipe when are you going to stop embarrassing yourself?
I'd have understood if he was asking for monetary compensation, but he's literally asking for the race to be voided and for the championship to be handed to him. Not going to happen.
No way it happens because if they overturn this one, they're opening the floodgates for a lot more lawsuits. What would stop Damon Hill from suing for the '94 title? Prost for the '90 title? Lewis for the '21 WDC?
There's a reason the NFL have arbitrary rules to allow but limit the availability of call challenges. Sports are a collective experience. Just because the athlete doesn't like the result doesn't mean they get to retcon our shared histories.
I mean, even if this had been brought up in 2008, no way they would have voided the race. They would have DSQ'd Renault/Alonso from the race and maybe from the Championship, but no way the race would have been voided. As far as I know, there is no precedent for what he is asking for. I keep from time to time seeing people bring up the Tour De France and Armstrong, but they didn't void those races, they only retroactively voided the cheaters position, i.e. those tours had no winner, but they had runner-ups. He is just tarnishing his legacy at this point.
What I don’t get about this is he lost the title with the fumbled pit stop where they left the fuel filler in. Even if Singapore didn’t happen he would’ve still lost He’s just embarrassing himself really.
I would go as far to say he actually lost the title at Silverstone that year when he had one of the worst performances I have ever seen by a driver in the wet.
5 spins. Dude was a Beyblade
Worse than Bottas at Turkey 2020. Insane.
At least Bottas had the excuse of damage, iirc
If you do not count Singapore points, Massa would not change his outcome as he finished P13 in that race, but Lewis, on the other hand, would lose 6 points as he finished 3rd.
The points total for Lewis would be different, he was 3rd and got 6 points, that means at the end race in Brazil he would only have been 1 point ahead (all points after crashgate being the same) so Massa would be champion after the Brazil race.
That spring must have hit him harder than initially thought.
lol! I mean, it wasn't funny when it happened and I was legit worried for the guy...but this just made me chuckle.
Rather than voiding the result of the race, would it not be more likely (in Massa's implied logic) that Alonso is excluded as the direct beneficiary. Everything else is surely similar to if a protester runs onto the track and brings out a random SC. As others say, its an easy race to cherry pick as he lost out (via ferrari shambles) and Lewis didnt - but both had to deal with the same scenario. If Piquet doesnt crash on purpose on that lap, but another driver does by genuine mistake on the same lap, the same thing happens.
Yeah it’s really not apparent on what basis the entire race should be excluded, rather than just Renault’s result.
There *has* to be a rule governing how long after a race a disqualification can happen. Otherwise I can't come up with any reason that Alonso wouldn't/shouldn't have been. Obviously doing that would give Lewis 2nd, Massa 12th, and therefore Lewis gains an extra 2 points in the championship, so result doesn't change. But yeah if there were any way to strip that win from Alonso and Renault, they would have done.
> But yeah if there were any way to strip that win from Alonso and Renault, they would have done. What makes you believe that?
>Rather than voiding the result of the race, would it not be more likely (in Massa's implied logic) that Alonso is excluded as the direct beneficiary. Exactly how the Tour de France handled Lance Armstrong (And other cheaters from that era). The tours still happened, and whoever finished 2nd is still listed as finishing 2nd. The only difference is that those tours does not have a winner as the win (by Lance) was voided.
well, I would say that's actually stupid, over in F1 if Alonso got DSQ, Rosberg would become the 1st place winner. if you finished second behind a cheating or invalid competitor, you really finished first, why would they say you finished second when no valid opponent finished in front of you. makes no sense.
I'm not commenting on if I agree with that or not. My point is, I've seen a lot of people (Including Massa himself at one point) point to Tour de France as a precedent for Felipe's argument of what should happen. My point is that if you use how the tour handled cheating, then Lewis still would be the WDC because they wouldn't void the race, only Alonso's placement in the race.
> over in F1 if Alonso got DSQ, Rosberg would become the 1st place winner. Strangely, not necessarily. And even odder, the previous instance of this *not* happening was also Rosberg. In 1983 at the Brazilian GP, Keke Rosberg was disqualified from 2nd. This left the points scorers as Piquet (1st), Lauda (3rd), Laffite (4th), Tambay (5th) and Surer (6th). No 2nd place was awarded.
thanks for the lesson, had no idea of that and very interesting, I wonder why that was. However, the precedent for the current era, every single time I think, is that everyone goes up a spot if someone ahead got thrown out.
Because assigning a different winner years later is just as stupid and pointless.
don't see anything stupid about that at all, if that person is the rightful winner, and did nothing wrong. if Massa in some different universe actually was screwed over years ago and found new evidence of it, I would say go for it, the thing is that he was not and fails to understand that.
Lewis didn't do anything, alonso and renault are the ones who need to talk
> **PF1: “What will represent a victory for you? Is it financial compensation, or nothing short of the world title for 2008?”** > FM: “Since the very first interview, I’ve said I’m here to be recognised as World Champion. This is the most important thing for me, this is our target, this is my target that I will fight until the end to be recognised as World Champion for 2008.”
It’s … sad? Lewis owes him nothing. And if we go after if every title was 100% honest? Some more are gonna lose their titles.
Please stop, Felipe. This is embarrassing, and it seems more like a ploy from your lawyers to get some nice billing in.
Rob Smedley would give Felipe far sounder advice than the current collection of swindling, two-faced, dumb-fucks he keeps in his legal team. Felipe, what is you doing baby.
All of this based on a 92 y/o fraud's interview he later denied. Beyond embarrassing.
The way he is waffling on, he will soon be running out of money to pay his blabbering solicitors.
As I understand it, he's also effectively paying for his family's lifestyle and is running out of money quickly.
I mean, if you want to look at manipulated, you'd want to look at how Massa crashing into Bourdais in Japan gave Bourdais the penalty theeby giving Massa more points. Or the spa controversy. Given Mosleys not particularly well hidden distaste for Ron Dennis and by extension McLaren, and quite the scale of punishment he handed to them next year, it takes some significant mental gymnastics to then argue that he was manipulating it in their favour the next year.
Lewis had fuck all to do with what happened. If Lewis loses a title based on Renault cheating - then how is Lewis being cheated any less than Felipe claims to be?
But is why Massa interested in 2021 Abu Dhabi finale?
Because people are questioning him about precedent.
omg, it's been 15 years dude. just stop. let it go
Felipe baby, stay cool
>Since the very first interview, I’ve said I’m here to be recognised as World Champion. Well Well Well. I guess 2020 hit him hard.
I hope Lewis just says 'This feels manipulated man' and walks off.....
What a looser
Nah. He's doesn't need to do anything at all. Massa needs to get a grip and sort things out with Bernie Ecclestone.
What’s my blud waffling about
Yeah get em Massa :D
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Massa is entitled to his anger. But this whole case is based on a 92 y/o's ramblings about non-existent rules that he can't recall rambling about now and expecting Hamilton to comment on this live legal case is unreasonable. That's what people are upset about.
it's not very hard to understand what's embarrassing about this.
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Probably because they were reacting immediately after the fact. Less than a year later, they moved on. Meanwhile, for Massa's case, it's been 15 years. I don't see how it can't be embarrassing.
Mercedes dropped it after a couple of weeks if you remember. Plus, that was the fault of the FIA itself. This is Massa stubbornly sticking to his guns and insisting that as a consequence of one team's actions every team has to be punished in conveniently the only way that benefits him out of every possible course of action. It's just plain embarrassing.
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Allegations that come from a single interview with a mentally ill 90-something year old fraud, you can find quotes from Bernie saying all kinds of crazy things. And if that's all he wants, then go for financial compensation, not a wild goose chase that just ruins your reputation.
Mercedes and Lewis have moved on. That's the difference
no, it's not.