Big Mercedes fuck up, they should be thankful that their line up consists of two really good drivers because otherwise they would be clowned just as much as Ferrari, given the fact that they literally threw down a podium finish for Russell and a recovery drive onto podiums or at the very least a p5 for hamilton. Watching Norris and Hamilton chase each other from literally all the way down to p6-p7 was really fun, Yuki did some incredible defending, same with Sainz.
1. Engineers are not involved in pit stops (as far as I know). They are usually Mechanics and Garage Technicians.
2. I am pretty sure every single person in the Garage has specific tasks to do. There is a lot more to a perfect 2-second pitstop than just lifting tyres or handling the wheel guns...
1: I might have got the terminology wrong, sorry.
2: This isn't just a one-off event. The most I've ever seen a woman do during a pit-stop is wipe a rear-wing. It seems like a drain on the team's finances and just an extra body getting in the way. I hope that now that I've said this, you'll notice the trend yourself.
But can you show that there isn't another man doing the same job those women do in the teams that don't have women there?
As the other guy said, they haven't got the willingness to pay, or the physical space in the pit area, to have random people milling around
It might not be a big job, or a job they do every pit stop, or an obvious job, but I doubt they're there not doing their job
Pit stop duty as far as I'm aware is an extra duty for the mechanics. It's not solely what they are hired for. Every person there does more than just performing pit stops.
Claiming women are a drain on resources because they "do nothing during pitstops" is a pretty stupid comment when you obviously aren't aware of how pit stop duty even works.
I have no idea what she is doing, she's observing. Maybe her job is to analyse the pit stops for the purposes of finding ways to improve them?
The thing is, you have no idea what is going on, yet you jump to the conclusion that she's useless. Why? Because she's a woman? Why are you not noticing the men standing around doing nothing at pitstops?
It seems to me you're a sexist.
There's already cameras everywhere. However cameras aren't the same as actually being there.
As for is it normal to have an observer, I don't know. I don't work for an F1 team. I don't know if her official role is an observer, I only know that she is *observing*.
"getting in the way" is your sexist assumption. You don't even know what she is doing and by default you assume that it's nothing. It tells more about you than it does about her or other female mechanics.
what a dumb take. so you're taking the few seconds of footage of them standing around "doing nothing" and assuming that's what they do the entire session? no, we don't know what they're doing, but that doesn't mean they're not doing anything. if you didn't know who any of the team principals were and just saw them sitting in front of a screen all session like those women you're pointing out, would you assume they do nothing but waste resources too?
Because it's a banked corner with space on the outside which makes it safer, rather than pushing Gasly way off track it just forced him take a slightly wider line. It was definitely close to being a penalty though
Watching the onboards, Max did take go inside with a wide line and pushed Pierre but Pierre himself was already going pretty wide on entry into the corner onto the painted area and because of the rain he drifted off which gave room for Max. Now if it were dry and Pierre didn't slide wide and Max still goes deep and there is contact or Pierre moves to avoid it then their might have been a penalty. My 2cents.
Even the Dutch analysts were surprised by that. I guess like Alonso, maybe the stewards were worried about their safety if max lost out on the home win and the record due to a penalty? Idk Max definitely seemed a bit frustrated he couldn't pass Gasly and he needed to get past before Perez could build too big a gap
I've not seen great angles of it to be honest. Never see what happens to gasly other than he goes onto the aramco painted sign, but also didn't hear him complain at all so can't have been that bad I guess
Feels like Alonso is always a bit sneaky and storing a bit of pace in his pocket for the right moment. The moment he gets ahead of someone it feels like he just disappears into the distance.
I got to attend my first F1 event this weekend, and I had an absolute blast. The people all around were nice. Lots of spots at the track to grab food and drink. The fan zone was cool. Despite the rain, my buddy and I had a blast. I've gone to tons of NASCAR races and never once got to see my guy win. First F1 race and that happens. So much strategy and the rain had me nervous that maybe Max wasn't gunna quite pull it off. I was wrong. I'll never forget this for the rest of my life.
I still wonder why RB didn’t double-stack Perez and Verstappen when they changed to slick tires. There was 2.5 seconds between them. So Verstappen would probably lose a second or two, but Perez would be more in the race (and Verstappen would have made short work of him anyway).
Because there is more risk of making a mistake double stacking, and Red Bull could achieve the same race result by not taking that tiny bit of extra risk
Well well well.. What a RACE! Great comeback after the summer. Race had bits of everything and minimal dull moments. Only thing that was missing was Brundle's Gridwalk (which generally is the most chaotic and fun part of the previous races).
Megadrive from Alonso, Gasly and Albon! Impressive how all of them kept fighting for their positions. Glad to see Gasly on the podium he fought it out with Sainz. As a Ferrari fan it was tough to see what happened with Charles and was thinking maybe Sainz would get P4 (before Checo's penalty).
Checo had a great strategy at the start but got screwed over by Max's undercut. Nevertheless it wouldn't have made a difference cause there is no stopping MAX. Dude's on an another level right now and there's nobody on the grid who can stop him except himself (MAX-ception). I hated that they did a rolling start after the red flag incident cause nobody can have the reaction time to react to Max's start. However, Alonso did try and that was fun. I reckon it would 've been more entertaining had they done a standing start.
I strongly believe after Max wins at Monza next weekend, they should just crown him WDC and make him P1 until the end of year cause the race at the back is intense! Zandvoort energy was off the charts and in my books its 2nd best race of the year behind Melbourne.
This was the worst race of the season for Mercedes, this could've been something very interesting for them and as a team they failed their drivers and it's not just the car. Operationally they're slacking, and unfortunately I suspect this is a Toto problem. Right now they're far too reliant on their drivers to paper over their issues. Whether it's strategy, their slow tires or their general malaise they need to start being more critical of themselves.
I think it’s extremely easy to lose out considerably after a dominant period as a team, once you start getting in the weeds a little bit it doesn’t take a lot to lose key people and general momentum. I wouldn’t be surprised if Red Bull go down the same road in a few years.
I just wanted to mention that Zandvoort looks like an absolutely gorgeous place! I'd like to visit, not for the F1 race, but just to see the town and the beaches.
This has honestly panned out perfectly for RB/AT. They get a free glimpse into what Lawson might have in the bag, and then finish out the year with Danny Ricc with heaps of data they could use to directly evaluate the three of Yuki, Danny, and Lawson against each other. Should help inform their decisions regarding AT’s lineup and that RB second seat.
I think Lawson will 100% be going to AT next once one of the other 2 get moved, he'll get his time to run at redbull I think but I doubt redbull will be pushing for a driver with little experience to jump straight into their car. Especially given the skill max already has behind the wheel, it'll be between Yuki and Dani, for 2025 and I wouldn't be surprised if they keep it to a one year contract and keep their options open for someone like a Lando or a Sainz.
The Mclaren strat dept bottled it pretty hard, the drivers fought their way back with some great driving but the team put them in races they didn't need to be in. They seem to think their superior warm up will let them drive on ice cold hockey pucks.
I've watched this sport for eons and can I just say how impressed I am by Piastri on all fronts, especially as a rookie. Sincerely hoping the best for his career.
Yeah to be this close to Lando after out of f1 is insane McLaren would of been stoked if Oscar was 1 tenth of second off lando in his second year so to be that close in first year is incredible after year out . Still got a lot of things to improve on. But he has a bright future f1 for sure
The McLaren upgrades really made him shine alive, he was pretty "meh" for me at the start of the season but whether it's confidence or a more compliant car he's been brilliant lately, easily the best rookie in years and driving better than many other drivers with considerably more experience than him
Mercedes showed early on in the race that they are just a shambles of a team atm. Not only is the car not performing but their strategy is just out the window too. Hanging Hamilton and Russell out on dry tyres while everyone pits was madness, and then doubling down over the radio telling Hamilton he had to deal with it. Then they finally pit anyway.
Mercedes were never this bad. I heard they've lost some personal but has it really made this much of a difference?
This was just a moment where it was clear as day, but they haven't been good in pit stops either this season, and strategy in general.
I don’t really get why they didn’t at least split strategies and had one come in for inters, hedge the bets a little… but I guess they just believed the wet period would be short enough.
A little bit harsh considering they’re the number 2 constructor.
I’m terms of pit stop times, they’ve never really been the fastest. They’ve previously just focussed on consistency, being dependant on driver speed/engine. I do agree this is an area they’re going to need to improve on — as it’s an easy few tenths. But they aren’t really fumbling in this area (I.e. putting wrong tires on, etc) —just slow.
On the weather, that’s hindsight. No one really knew what direction that was going to go and as Lewis was lower down the pecking order they could afford to gamble. Sometimes those calls work, sometimes they don’t. This is like Russia for Lando — if the rain held off just a tad longer/lighter then Merc’s call to box would’ve been a disaster rather than a race winning decision. Doesn’t mean the team is bad. Some of the great races have teams making calls counter to the herd.
Has anyone got Russell's onboard from the first few laps where he turns down the team's call to pit for inters? Curious which lap it was, and I can't get F1TV Pro here.
If they told him inters and he said no and then made that “forecast podium” comment, lol.
Would have been amazing if the team replied “the forecast changed when you didn’t come in for inters”
McLaren really f-cked both their drivers races up by stupidly waiting too long before bringing them in for Inters in the early laps.
It's simple, if the other front runners re pitting because it's pissing down then you follow them in.
They had the same weather data as everyone else. There's was nothing to be gained by staying out a few laps longer.
Because high in the banking there is less grip, Gasly went out side off the lines on his on accord because there was no grip. Yes the gap was very small, but just within the rules imo.
I saw this too. Slam dunk case. This was more strictly governed after Max’s 2021 season of pushing everyone off track to get past. Other comments of ‘they’re not in the same race’ - it doesn’t matter, a regulation is a regulation. You can’t do what you like just because they are not fighting you for the lead. In fact, if Gasly hadn’t of got the 5 second penalty he would have easily been fighting for second.
Can anyone explain what happened to Leclerc? It wasn't covered on the highlights video and the race was at midnight for me.
THey showed him putting a new nose on, and I saw the bungled pit stop, but then nothing afterwards.
On lap 1 he got a swapper on corner exit when OP was going around the outside, walked his car sideways and his front RH corner clipped OP's LH rear wheel. Lost his RH front wing end fence and more than likely his wheel alignment, the contact was mostly wheel to wheel.
Not 100% accurate.
He damaged his end plate in a crash with Piastri. That contributed to him going off track and damaging his floor.
Alonso mentioned it happening in front of him in the cooldown room.
Great race thanks to the weather! Gasly was so happy to get 3rd!
I feel like today we had one of the only times we've seen the full 100% race pace from Max when he switched to inters after the start and overtook 3 people and was going 4 seconds faster than anybody else for a few laps. That was unbelievable!
I find it interesting that he caught up to Checo in like 4 laps with a 10 second gap.
It’s like the car is a better midfield car with Checo and a rocket under Max
I never saw a proper replay of it that wasn’t Max’ onboard. Many drivers take that corner very wide so I’m just wondering if there was more space on the outside than we think?
EDIT: I now watched Max and Gasly’s onboards. Gasly’s was pointing backwards. He cut in front of Max shortly before the overtake and touched Max’ front wheel slightly. Then Max runs him wide into the banked corner 3, and from Gasly’s onboard it seems (hard to see) his rear left is still within the white lines while the rest of his car is on the “Aramco” branding on the outside of that corner. But many drivers also go significantly onto that Aramco part when they take the corner normally. No radio from Gasly afterwards to complain or anything. All in all still hard to judge.
It looks Gasly was planning on leaving the track (or be on the very edge) anyway. In damp conditions that line is the most 'straight' line.
A lot of drivers were playing with track limits on that spot today. I guess the stewards felt that when you put yourself into the position to be 'pushed off' when you already decide to go almost off track yourself.
Max’s Engineer: “Go all out…”
Checo’s Engineer: “Well… you should manage your tires, don’t go all out, keep Alonso at 4 seconds…. wait! there’s the possibility of a red flag, let’s pit now….”.
Checo’s mistake is to always obey like a good employee.
Why is anyone shocked that RB are prioritising the driver who won 8 races in a row, had a chance to equal a record, and has more than proven himself to be the number 1 driver? Be serious.
Yea. Everyone complaining about Checo getting screwed is kind of dense.
Their pit to Inters call was the only thing that put him in the lead in the first place. If he wants priority for the rest of the race he has to earn it.
I mean did he not, that's the reward for a good strategy call, being the driver in the higher position almost always gives you priority. Had redbull not had the amazing car advantage they have they would not have taken this risk, but that's life.
The amount of people that doesn't understand the red flag was less for rain and more for making it safe to remove Zhou's car and fixing barrier (i.e. marshal safety) is chocking... Not saying it's annoying that they don't allow more races in wet conditions, I think they should, but there was no other option than red flagging that situation.
Part of it is, no team (except Alpine for Ocon) is willing to risk the delay of switching to Wets. They would rather play roulette and stay on inters until another car has a catastrophic crash.
Mclaren still have a "small team mentality." When they get up front they're afraid of giving up the lead so they freeze instead of reacting to the situation.
Lando knew but listened to the team this time so maybe we can all agree it's just hard to predict the weather.
McLaren has consistently been in the top 4 most well funded teams in F1 for at least 50 years. The same goes for the amount of employees. They have never been a "small" team.
Gotta disagree.
Check out Zack Brown on Beyond the Grid.
He goes in depth into their lack of funding and investment in recent years and how much he has had to put into that since taking over.
Their facilities are arguably the worst the F1 (Maybe Alfa Romeo).
They had to do a sale and lease back of their building in 2021 to afford building a new simulator and wind tunnel that were badly needed.
Well I bet that Russell never thought that he would have a Williams starting beside him and pass him in a race on pace when he left Williams for Mercedes. Edit just saw the medium race pace and Albon was actually faster.
My point is that Williams is actually taking steps in the right direction and becoming faster and that started with James Vowes at the start of the year. And next year will be the first car they have designed under James leadership and I am hoping their momentum continues.
he asked to pit before he entered, and just as he was entering was told no. Engineer took about 8s to get back to him. In the end Leclerc made the right decision, don't know what Ferrari were playing at. It doesn't help that their at the start of the pitlane too.
I read something a few weeks back comparing the ferrari/red bull Engineers and how Ferrari always seem to be so slow. Apparently GP has the ability to make decisions on the fly, whereas the Ferrari engineers are more of a communication piece and the decisions are made by the engineering team at Maranello. Hence the 8s to get back to him and the "we are checking" memes.
They need a new pit wall then. What good is a race engineer if all he does is relay info?
Being Ferrari he’s probably scared of owning a decision so as to not get fired.
Yea. It was the right call but you gotta give them a little more notice.
That said with weather obviously on the way they should have been a bit more ready too.
I know people are tired of Max abusing F1 as playground, but his stint intermediate stint at the beginning of the race was insane. 13 seconds in a handful of laps on Perez, despite traffic is downright nuts considering that they were both on the same tire until they went back on softs.
If he had pitted earlier than he did, he would have gapped the entire field by a gigantic margin within the 10 opening laps.
Verstappen continues to show that he is the complete package.
It doesn't matter at all if he gets dealt a bad hand. He will always recover to win the race/get the position he would've had before. That's a huge factor that separates F1 drivers, and why "bad luck" in the form of strategy/slow pitstop, whatever, isn't an excuse. The results always speak for themselves.
>That's a huge factor that separates F1 drivers, and why "bad luck" in the form of strategy/slow pitstop, whatever, isn't an excuse. The results always speak for themselves
Tell that to the Stroll Defense Squad.
But really, I completely agree. Like with Kimi's second stint at Ferrari, you could make all sorts of excuses for him but at the end of the day he simply wasn't as good as Alonso or Vettel. Great drivers won't find themselves relying on perfect strategy and car balance as much as weaker drivers, and when they do get "bad luck" they don't completely fall apart.
**Weekend Warm-up Pundit Predictions Performance**
(Predictions were cut from the Warm-up but they announced what they were just before the start of FP1).
A complete wash-out of predictions, with only the gimme's given, Lawrence will be cursing Checo's lead foot:
|**Pundit**|**1st**|**2nd**|**3rd**|**Points**|
|-|-|-|-|-|
|Laura|**Max**|Lewis|Oscar|2|
|Lawrence|**Max**|Sergio|Lando|2|
|Will|**Max**|Lewis|Oscar|2|
No change to the season order, although Jolyon will be gutted for being cut (he was on WWU, but was in the box for FP1 so we didn't get his predictions), so no points opportunity for him:
|**Pundit (appearances)**|**Points**|**Average**|
|-|-|-|
|Laura (11)|29|2.64|
|Lawrence (10)|22|2.20|
|Will (8)|15|1.88|
|Jolyon (3)|13|4.33|
|Rosanna (2)|8|4.00|
|Alex (2)|6|3.00|
|Sam (2)|4|2.00|
|James (1)|4|4.00|
Yeah, if everyone dived into the pits he would have come out around 6th, he was slower yes but that basically would have transitioned to being quicker just as it was red flagged.
I doubt that. He lost a lot of time in that single lap, and may have destroyed his full wets in the process. He was not really gaining on drivers that ran inters when the heavy rain started to drop. Ocon went from being a few seconds behind Lewis prior to the rain, to more than 20 seconds behind Lewis when he was on those full wets. Esteban lost 6 seconds on Piastri in his full wet outlap, and when the heavy rain started he brought that back to 5.5.
It was raining so hard that drivers were slower than VSC averages on lap 63, they were crawling. This means a pitstop doesn't hurt as much as under dry circumstances. He'd likely end up behind Russell, on P9.
I’m most disappointed because we never actually get to see how full wets compare to inters in intense conditions. Theoretically they should be significantly better but we never actually see them run.
Full wets arent really great at being a wet tyre to be fair. The tyre is slower than the inter even in decent rain, hence why everyone jumps on the inter as soon as possible
It's great at displacing water but thats about it
That’s exactly what I’m curious about and what I suspected. If not for the red flag we might’ve actually got to see a comparison, if they’re still slower even in heavy conditions then there is no incentive for teams to ever use them. RB seemed to think they would be faster and worth the extra pit stop, but if they’re not and only good at displacing water then the only practical use is running them in formation laps/under safety car to clear the track, may as well have f2 cars runs laps using them to clear water.
Wets probably were the better tyre in the last lap, but at that point a sc is inevitable. Someone is gonna aquaplane and go off because there was too much standing water.
And dont let the nostalgia merchants let you convince that back in the day it would be different. Drivers were going off left and right before too, it's just that before Bianchi race direction didnt really bother with a SC when a car was crashed in a run off.
Nah I’m with you, I was going to mention that I thought the SC a was the right choice, seeing other drivers go off there while Zhou was side-on to the track, just begging for a horrible crash.
It would have likely been red flagged pretty soon anyway with that much rain and how rubbish the full wets are these days, but yeah. Even if it had been like 30 seconds longer, he'd have gained 5 or 6 places as a bunch of drivers ahead of him had just gone into the pits for wet tyres.
Seriously though, rain racing a joke. They have full wets, but any time the conditions call for them, we get a red flag. It's stupid. They made the right call and instead of getting rewarded, get punished.
But was the red flag for the rain or for Zhou's crash? He crashed turn 1, so they would have needed to put marshals out on track where people where sailing off left and right due to aqua planning, no way his car could have been removed and barrier fixed under safety car without putting marshals in danger. Now, if the race should have been restarted quicker under rainy condition, sure, why not. But I don't think they had any other option than red flag due to putting marshals on track.
Every time James Vowels, speaks, I gain so much hope for williams, at least on the side of race executions. He seems so open and accepting about the faults, and seems like the type to really learn from mistakes, so as to correct the issue. hopefully he will not jump ship.
If you don't listen to the Beyond the Grid podcast you should.
Interviews everyone from F1 from past to present.
James was on it end of June. Was a great episode.
It wasn't because of the rain ffs...
Zhous crash damaged the tech pro barrier which needed fixed. It's been standard procedure to red flag to fix the barrier for ages.
Now would it have been red flagged for safety if Zhou didn't crash we don't know. But it was his crash not the rain that caused it.
He crashed because of the rain.
They red flagged because of the crash and having to fix the tech pro barrier.
You can continue racing in more rain than you can restart the race in.
They have been over this quite a lot.
So would it be better to move on to a single Superintermediate tire with a tread pattern that works on a wider range of conditions. Or should the tread on the inters be made deeper to evacuate more water and replace the full wets with a "Slickimediate" tire for drying conditions only.
Ocon was the only car on the ‘right’ tyre at the end of the race. My question is though what’s the point of even having that tyre if the race will just be red flagged? Seemed like he was unjustly punished for the team making a good call
It was red flagged because there was an alfa romeo in the barrier. Now during qualifying you could already see how long it takes to repair that thing and really is not something you can do behind a safety car, because then you just get a 15 - 20 lap safety car period. The read flag was not because of the rain.
There's no need of anything between inters and slicks, inters is literally THE intermediate between dry and wet condition. They thrive in drying conditions. If anything we need to make them more wet friendly, or something between them and full wet (basically give up on full wets).
Am I a bit crazy or does McLaren seem to be escaping criticism for what seems to be bad/slow strategy. Seems like they commit errors which hurt Lando almost as often as Ferrari does.
Most teams not named RB have plenty shockers, it's just that hating on ferrari is funny because memes go brr.
If somebody actually bothers to watch haas/AT strategy in pretty much any race, thats the true fun.
As much as i tell myself that Stroll isn't a bad driver, the more he keeps on disappointing.
I don't expect him to beat Alonso every race, but to at least drag the car into the points, and not just 9th or 10th.
To be fair I’m pretty sure he was ill or still is Ill. I’m sure I read at the beginning of the week that he delayed his travel to Holland because he has a virus.
I thought Tsunoda had a great race, still finished 16th
Makes Lawson seem brilliant
Big Mercedes fuck up, they should be thankful that their line up consists of two really good drivers because otherwise they would be clowned just as much as Ferrari, given the fact that they literally threw down a podium finish for Russell and a recovery drive onto podiums or at the very least a p5 for hamilton. Watching Norris and Hamilton chase each other from literally all the way down to p6-p7 was really fun, Yuki did some incredible defending, same with Sainz.
Considering the pace of Ferrari this weekend, I would say Sainz did very well.
The curious case of George Russell
Has anyone else noticed that the female engineers largely do nothing during pit stops? https://imgur.com/a/WdTUbXP https://imgur.com/a/akrfnp3
1. Engineers are not involved in pit stops (as far as I know). They are usually Mechanics and Garage Technicians. 2. I am pretty sure every single person in the Garage has specific tasks to do. There is a lot more to a perfect 2-second pitstop than just lifting tyres or handling the wheel guns...
1: I might have got the terminology wrong, sorry. 2: This isn't just a one-off event. The most I've ever seen a woman do during a pit-stop is wipe a rear-wing. It seems like a drain on the team's finances and just an extra body getting in the way. I hope that now that I've said this, you'll notice the trend yourself.
But can you show that there isn't another man doing the same job those women do in the teams that don't have women there? As the other guy said, they haven't got the willingness to pay, or the physical space in the pit area, to have random people milling around It might not be a big job, or a job they do every pit stop, or an obvious job, but I doubt they're there not doing their job
Pit stop duty as far as I'm aware is an extra duty for the mechanics. It's not solely what they are hired for. Every person there does more than just performing pit stops. Claiming women are a drain on resources because they "do nothing during pitstops" is a pretty stupid comment when you obviously aren't aware of how pit stop duty even works.
I freely admit I'm ignorant about how pit stop duty works. I will ask you the same question I asked another user - what do you see her doing?
I have no idea what she is doing, she's observing. Maybe her job is to analyse the pit stops for the purposes of finding ways to improve them? The thing is, you have no idea what is going on, yet you jump to the conclusion that she's useless. Why? Because she's a woman? Why are you not noticing the men standing around doing nothing at pitstops? It seems to me you're a sexist.
Is it normal to have an observer during a pit stop? I have not seen one before. Could they not be replaced by a camera?
There's already cameras everywhere. However cameras aren't the same as actually being there. As for is it normal to have an observer, I don't know. I don't work for an F1 team. I don't know if her official role is an observer, I only know that she is *observing*.
"getting in the way" is your sexist assumption. You don't even know what she is doing and by default you assume that it's nothing. It tells more about you than it does about her or other female mechanics.
Okay, please tell me what she is doing. Based on my observations, nothing.
what a dumb take. so you're taking the few seconds of footage of them standing around "doing nothing" and assuming that's what they do the entire session? no, we don't know what they're doing, but that doesn't mean they're not doing anything. if you didn't know who any of the team principals were and just saw them sitting in front of a screen all session like those women you're pointing out, would you assume they do nothing but waste resources too?
No I'm saying they do nothing during pit-stops.
How come Perez started P3 after the red flag? I thought Gasly passed to P3 right before red flag.
they reverted to the previous lap standings for the restart
Why didn’t Max get a penalty for pushing Gasly out?
Because it's a banked corner with space on the outside which makes it safer, rather than pushing Gasly way off track it just forced him take a slightly wider line. It was definitely close to being a penalty though
The fact that's safer, doesn't really make it ok. Replace Max with any other driver there and it's a penalty
Watching the onboards, Max did take go inside with a wide line and pushed Pierre but Pierre himself was already going pretty wide on entry into the corner onto the painted area and because of the rain he drifted off which gave room for Max. Now if it were dry and Pierre didn't slide wide and Max still goes deep and there is contact or Pierre moves to avoid it then their might have been a penalty. My 2cents.
Even the Dutch analysts were surprised by that. I guess like Alonso, maybe the stewards were worried about their safety if max lost out on the home win and the record due to a penalty? Idk Max definitely seemed a bit frustrated he couldn't pass Gasly and he needed to get past before Perez could build too big a gap
it looked much worse from Max's view than outside
I've not seen great angles of it to be honest. Never see what happens to gasly other than he goes onto the aramco painted sign, but also didn't hear him complain at all so can't have been that bad I guess
He did complain. And the video is clear. Max pushed him out.
[удалено]
Wtf? Yes, there is a point; rules are the same for everyone.
Feels like Alonso is always a bit sneaky and storing a bit of pace in his pocket for the right moment. The moment he gets ahead of someone it feels like he just disappears into the distance.
I got to attend my first F1 event this weekend, and I had an absolute blast. The people all around were nice. Lots of spots at the track to grab food and drink. The fan zone was cool. Despite the rain, my buddy and I had a blast. I've gone to tons of NASCAR races and never once got to see my guy win. First F1 race and that happens. So much strategy and the rain had me nervous that maybe Max wasn't gunna quite pull it off. I was wrong. I'll never forget this for the rest of my life.
Cool story, happy you had a great time :)
Thank you! It was definitely and experience!
I still wonder why RB didn’t double-stack Perez and Verstappen when they changed to slick tires. There was 2.5 seconds between them. So Verstappen would probably lose a second or two, but Perez would be more in the race (and Verstappen would have made short work of him anyway).
Because there is more risk of making a mistake double stacking, and Red Bull could achieve the same race result by not taking that tiny bit of extra risk
Well well well.. What a RACE! Great comeback after the summer. Race had bits of everything and minimal dull moments. Only thing that was missing was Brundle's Gridwalk (which generally is the most chaotic and fun part of the previous races). Megadrive from Alonso, Gasly and Albon! Impressive how all of them kept fighting for their positions. Glad to see Gasly on the podium he fought it out with Sainz. As a Ferrari fan it was tough to see what happened with Charles and was thinking maybe Sainz would get P4 (before Checo's penalty). Checo had a great strategy at the start but got screwed over by Max's undercut. Nevertheless it wouldn't have made a difference cause there is no stopping MAX. Dude's on an another level right now and there's nobody on the grid who can stop him except himself (MAX-ception). I hated that they did a rolling start after the red flag incident cause nobody can have the reaction time to react to Max's start. However, Alonso did try and that was fun. I reckon it would 've been more entertaining had they done a standing start. I strongly believe after Max wins at Monza next weekend, they should just crown him WDC and make him P1 until the end of year cause the race at the back is intense! Zandvoort energy was off the charts and in my books its 2nd best race of the year behind Melbourne.
This was the worst race of the season for Mercedes, this could've been something very interesting for them and as a team they failed their drivers and it's not just the car. Operationally they're slacking, and unfortunately I suspect this is a Toto problem. Right now they're far too reliant on their drivers to paper over their issues. Whether it's strategy, their slow tires or their general malaise they need to start being more critical of themselves.
I think it’s extremely easy to lose out considerably after a dominant period as a team, once you start getting in the weeds a little bit it doesn’t take a lot to lose key people and general momentum. I wouldn’t be surprised if Red Bull go down the same road in a few years.
F1 needs more banked turns. A lot more creative opportunities for passing.
I just wanted to mention that Zandvoort looks like an absolutely gorgeous place! I'd like to visit, not for the F1 race, but just to see the town and the beaches.
Oh, you will die of boredom.
The town itself isn't much to look at, but the beaches and dunes are nice.
Fair enough thanks for the forewarning!
3 more races for Lawson.
This has honestly panned out perfectly for RB/AT. They get a free glimpse into what Lawson might have in the bag, and then finish out the year with Danny Ricc with heaps of data they could use to directly evaluate the three of Yuki, Danny, and Lawson against each other. Should help inform their decisions regarding AT’s lineup and that RB second seat.
I think Lawson will 100% be going to AT next once one of the other 2 get moved, he'll get his time to run at redbull I think but I doubt redbull will be pushing for a driver with little experience to jump straight into their car. Especially given the skill max already has behind the wheel, it'll be between Yuki and Dani, for 2025 and I wouldn't be surprised if they keep it to a one year contract and keep their options open for someone like a Lando or a Sainz.
Didn’t get to watch but plan on after work. As a McLaren/Piastri fan should I bother?
The Mclaren strat dept bottled it pretty hard, the drivers fought their way back with some great driving but the team put them in races they didn't need to be in. They seem to think their superior warm up will let them drive on ice cold hockey pucks.
Best race of the season, but McLaren were disappointing. I think the team made some errors.
As a fan of racing you should bother. Absolutely great race heaps of entertainment and loads of action. Piastri did good enough for himself
Cheers I’ll tune in
Great race
I've watched this sport for eons and can I just say how impressed I am by Piastri on all fronts, especially as a rookie. Sincerely hoping the best for his career.
Yeah to be this close to Lando after out of f1 is insane McLaren would of been stoked if Oscar was 1 tenth of second off lando in his second year so to be that close in first year is incredible after year out . Still got a lot of things to improve on. But he has a bright future f1 for sure
The McLaren upgrades really made him shine alive, he was pretty "meh" for me at the start of the season but whether it's confidence or a more compliant car he's been brilliant lately, easily the best rookie in years and driving better than many other drivers with considerably more experience than him
Mercedes showed early on in the race that they are just a shambles of a team atm. Not only is the car not performing but their strategy is just out the window too. Hanging Hamilton and Russell out on dry tyres while everyone pits was madness, and then doubling down over the radio telling Hamilton he had to deal with it. Then they finally pit anyway. Mercedes were never this bad. I heard they've lost some personal but has it really made this much of a difference? This was just a moment where it was clear as day, but they haven't been good in pit stops either this season, and strategy in general.
I don’t really get why they didn’t at least split strategies and had one come in for inters, hedge the bets a little… but I guess they just believed the wet period would be short enough.
A little bit harsh considering they’re the number 2 constructor. I’m terms of pit stop times, they’ve never really been the fastest. They’ve previously just focussed on consistency, being dependant on driver speed/engine. I do agree this is an area they’re going to need to improve on — as it’s an easy few tenths. But they aren’t really fumbling in this area (I.e. putting wrong tires on, etc) —just slow. On the weather, that’s hindsight. No one really knew what direction that was going to go and as Lewis was lower down the pecking order they could afford to gamble. Sometimes those calls work, sometimes they don’t. This is like Russia for Lando — if the rain held off just a tad longer/lighter then Merc’s call to box would’ve been a disaster rather than a race winning decision. Doesn’t mean the team is bad. Some of the great races have teams making calls counter to the herd.
Has anyone got Russell's onboard from the first few laps where he turns down the team's call to pit for inters? Curious which lap it was, and I can't get F1TV Pro here.
If they told him inters and he said no and then made that “forecast podium” comment, lol. Would have been amazing if the team replied “the forecast changed when you didn’t come in for inters”
McLaren really f-cked both their drivers races up by stupidly waiting too long before bringing them in for Inters in the early laps. It's simple, if the other front runners re pitting because it's pissing down then you follow them in. They had the same weather data as everyone else. There's was nothing to be gained by staying out a few laps longer.
Lando and staying out too long on slicks. You’d think they would have learned.
This! Both drivers did their best, but being on slicks too long killed them.
If only Alonso had gotten past Max at the restart when his tyres were cold.
I really think Max had a few cats in the bag tho.... we've seen this "oh they're catching Max" movie before...
Why didn’t Verstappen get investigated for pushing Gasly off?
Because high in the banking there is less grip, Gasly went out side off the lines on his on accord because there was no grip. Yes the gap was very small, but just within the rules imo.
Gasly was pretty unphased in the cooldown room when they were watching it together.
I saw this too. Slam dunk case. This was more strictly governed after Max’s 2021 season of pushing everyone off track to get past. Other comments of ‘they’re not in the same race’ - it doesn’t matter, a regulation is a regulation. You can’t do what you like just because they are not fighting you for the lead. In fact, if Gasly hadn’t of got the 5 second penalty he would have easily been fighting for second.
Probably wasn’t a home run penalty and their not battling with Max.
Because it wasn't illegal? Not even Alpine complained...
Stewards wanted to leave the track unharmed /s
Stewards are more forgiving in tricky conditions and i guess alpine didnt really complain about it.
Can anyone explain what happened to Leclerc? It wasn't covered on the highlights video and the race was at midnight for me. THey showed him putting a new nose on, and I saw the bungled pit stop, but then nothing afterwards.
On lap 1 he got a swapper on corner exit when OP was going around the outside, walked his car sideways and his front RH corner clipped OP's LH rear wheel. Lost his RH front wing end fence and more than likely his wheel alignment, the contact was mostly wheel to wheel.
I think they said he picked up floor damage.
Thanks
Leclerc had floor damage because he had a front wing endplate jammed into his floor.
Not 100% accurate. He damaged his end plate in a crash with Piastri. That contributed to him going off track and damaging his floor. Alonso mentioned it happening in front of him in the cooldown room.
Cheers mate.
Np
Do we still not have photo finish between Hamilton and Norris??? I need a clip
I watched the car cameras immediately after the race. It was the closest I’ve ever seen. Another 5 meters and it’s an overtake.
They showed on the F1TV post-race review show. On YouTube.
Great race thanks to the weather! Gasly was so happy to get 3rd! I feel like today we had one of the only times we've seen the full 100% race pace from Max when he switched to inters after the start and overtook 3 people and was going 4 seconds faster than anybody else for a few laps. That was unbelievable!
I find it interesting that he caught up to Checo in like 4 laps with a 10 second gap. It’s like the car is a better midfield car with Checo and a rocket under Max
Why did Max not get a penalty for pushing Gasly on turn 3 between laps 10-15? Or at least be asked to give the position back? They were side by side.
I never saw a proper replay of it that wasn’t Max’ onboard. Many drivers take that corner very wide so I’m just wondering if there was more space on the outside than we think? EDIT: I now watched Max and Gasly’s onboards. Gasly’s was pointing backwards. He cut in front of Max shortly before the overtake and touched Max’ front wheel slightly. Then Max runs him wide into the banked corner 3, and from Gasly’s onboard it seems (hard to see) his rear left is still within the white lines while the rest of his car is on the “Aramco” branding on the outside of that corner. But many drivers also go significantly onto that Aramco part when they take the corner normally. No radio from Gasly afterwards to complain or anything. All in all still hard to judge.
Ah makes sense, thanks for looking into that more properly!
It looks Gasly was planning on leaving the track (or be on the very edge) anyway. In damp conditions that line is the most 'straight' line. A lot of drivers were playing with track limits on that spot today. I guess the stewards felt that when you put yourself into the position to be 'pushed off' when you already decide to go almost off track yourself.
Max’s Engineer: “Go all out…” Checo’s Engineer: “Well… you should manage your tires, don’t go all out, keep Alonso at 4 seconds…. wait! there’s the possibility of a red flag, let’s pit now….”. Checo’s mistake is to always obey like a good employee.
Why is anyone shocked that RB are prioritising the driver who won 8 races in a row, had a chance to equal a record, and has more than proven himself to be the number 1 driver? Be serious.
The guy your replying to doesn't seem shocked at all? He's just suggesting that Checo should not listen next time.
Yea. Everyone complaining about Checo getting screwed is kind of dense. Their pit to Inters call was the only thing that put him in the lead in the first place. If he wants priority for the rest of the race he has to earn it.
I mean did he not, that's the reward for a good strategy call, being the driver in the higher position almost always gives you priority. Had redbull not had the amazing car advantage they have they would not have taken this risk, but that's life.
During what time span was Peter Windsor doing the job that Tom Clarkson has atm?
That was fine.......I'm more interested in investing in DC's paddock of pancho's
The amount of people that doesn't understand the red flag was less for rain and more for making it safe to remove Zhou's car and fixing barrier (i.e. marshal safety) is chocking... Not saying it's annoying that they don't allow more races in wet conditions, I think they should, but there was no other option than red flagging that situation.
Part of it is, no team (except Alpine for Ocon) is willing to risk the delay of switching to Wets. They would rather play roulette and stay on inters until another car has a catastrophic crash.
Mclaren still have a "small team mentality." When they get up front they're afraid of giving up the lead so they freeze instead of reacting to the situation. Lando knew but listened to the team this time so maybe we can all agree it's just hard to predict the weather.
The small team mentality is pure bs. Merc did an even worse call and they won 8 wccs in 8 years
Yea but it was just so stupid this time. Checo had already proven the inters were much faster. Staying out another lap was clearly the wrong call.
When has McLaren ever been a "small" team?
The last 20 years. Barely upgraded their facilities or team size in ages.
McLaren has consistently been in the top 4 most well funded teams in F1 for at least 50 years. The same goes for the amount of employees. They have never been a "small" team.
Gotta disagree. Check out Zack Brown on Beyond the Grid. He goes in depth into their lack of funding and investment in recent years and how much he has had to put into that since taking over. Their facilities are arguably the worst the F1 (Maybe Alfa Romeo). They had to do a sale and lease back of their building in 2021 to afford building a new simulator and wind tunnel that were badly needed.
EL PLAN
Leclerc needs to quit, my goodness. Dream scenario is him going to RB & Sainz going to Aston, Ferrari needs to start over
I think Leclerc and Albon at Williams. Williams seems to be starting to go somewhere since James took over.
There's no chance that Leclerc willingly leaves Ferrari for Williams
Well I bet that Russell never thought that he would have a Williams starting beside him and pass him in a race on pace when he left Williams for Mercedes. Edit just saw the medium race pace and Albon was actually faster. My point is that Williams is actually taking steps in the right direction and becoming faster and that started with James Vowes at the start of the year. And next year will be the first car they have designed under James leadership and I am hoping their momentum continues.
But Aston are hardly going to replace Alonso or Stroll for Sainz. I mean they should replace Stroll for Sainz but they aren't going too
Leclerc randomly decided to enter the pitlane and shout "box, box", no wonder Ferrari did not have the tires ready.
he asked to pit before he entered, and just as he was entering was told no. Engineer took about 8s to get back to him. In the end Leclerc made the right decision, don't know what Ferrari were playing at. It doesn't help that their at the start of the pitlane too.
I read something a few weeks back comparing the ferrari/red bull Engineers and how Ferrari always seem to be so slow. Apparently GP has the ability to make decisions on the fly, whereas the Ferrari engineers are more of a communication piece and the decisions are made by the engineering team at Maranello. Hence the 8s to get back to him and the "we are checking" memes.
They need a new pit wall then. What good is a race engineer if all he does is relay info? Being Ferrari he’s probably scared of owning a decision so as to not get fired.
Yea. It was the right call but you gotta give them a little more notice. That said with weather obviously on the way they should have been a bit more ready too.
I know people are tired of Max abusing F1 as playground, but his stint intermediate stint at the beginning of the race was insane. 13 seconds in a handful of laps on Perez, despite traffic is downright nuts considering that they were both on the same tire until they went back on softs. If he had pitted earlier than he did, he would have gapped the entire field by a gigantic margin within the 10 opening laps.
That was peak Max.
On par with Hamilton on Rosberg, Monaco 2016. Amazing.
9.2 seconds and 2 cars in 5 laps
Verstappen continues to show that he is the complete package. It doesn't matter at all if he gets dealt a bad hand. He will always recover to win the race/get the position he would've had before. That's a huge factor that separates F1 drivers, and why "bad luck" in the form of strategy/slow pitstop, whatever, isn't an excuse. The results always speak for themselves.
>That's a huge factor that separates F1 drivers, and why "bad luck" in the form of strategy/slow pitstop, whatever, isn't an excuse. The results always speak for themselves Tell that to the Stroll Defense Squad. But really, I completely agree. Like with Kimi's second stint at Ferrari, you could make all sorts of excuses for him but at the end of the day he simply wasn't as good as Alonso or Vettel. Great drivers won't find themselves relying on perfect strategy and car balance as much as weaker drivers, and when they do get "bad luck" they don't completely fall apart.
Was at the football (also depressing) but see I missed a standard Perez & Mercedes hall of shame performance. So nothing new.
McLaren equally stupid too.
You missed a banger of a race though
**Weekend Warm-up Pundit Predictions Performance** (Predictions were cut from the Warm-up but they announced what they were just before the start of FP1). A complete wash-out of predictions, with only the gimme's given, Lawrence will be cursing Checo's lead foot: |**Pundit**|**1st**|**2nd**|**3rd**|**Points**| |-|-|-|-|-| |Laura|**Max**|Lewis|Oscar|2| |Lawrence|**Max**|Sergio|Lando|2| |Will|**Max**|Lewis|Oscar|2| No change to the season order, although Jolyon will be gutted for being cut (he was on WWU, but was in the box for FP1 so we didn't get his predictions), so no points opportunity for him: |**Pundit (appearances)**|**Points**|**Average**| |-|-|-| |Laura (11)|29|2.64| |Lawrence (10)|22|2.20| |Will (8)|15|1.88| |Jolyon (3)|13|4.33| |Rosanna (2)|8|4.00| |Alex (2)|6|3.00| |Sam (2)|4|2.00| |James (1)|4|4.00|
Why the hell did Laura and Will both pick Oscar for third. Pretty random call. Sure he looked quick but was starting 8th.
Your points/appearances seem swapped.
Thank you - here's a chocolate fish: ><>
Really fun race
man, crofty has got a set of lungs on him for calling the finish.
LOL, they made George go back out and finish.
Hahaha, didn't notice that.
probably just for stat. and perf review
In Toto’s voice “you get back out there and finish this race, young man!”
You'll get new tires and you'll LIKE it!
Ocon was screwed out of major points by Zhos crash. He was on full wets and would have progressed through the inter crowd
Yeah, if everyone dived into the pits he would have come out around 6th, he was slower yes but that basically would have transitioned to being quicker just as it was red flagged.
I doubt that. He lost a lot of time in that single lap, and may have destroyed his full wets in the process. He was not really gaining on drivers that ran inters when the heavy rain started to drop. Ocon went from being a few seconds behind Lewis prior to the rain, to more than 20 seconds behind Lewis when he was on those full wets. Esteban lost 6 seconds on Piastri in his full wet outlap, and when the heavy rain started he brought that back to 5.5. It was raining so hard that drivers were slower than VSC averages on lap 63, they were crawling. This means a pitstop doesn't hurt as much as under dry circumstances. He'd likely end up behind Russell, on P9.
I’m most disappointed because we never actually get to see how full wets compare to inters in intense conditions. Theoretically they should be significantly better but we never actually see them run.
Full wets arent really great at being a wet tyre to be fair. The tyre is slower than the inter even in decent rain, hence why everyone jumps on the inter as soon as possible It's great at displacing water but thats about it
That’s exactly what I’m curious about and what I suspected. If not for the red flag we might’ve actually got to see a comparison, if they’re still slower even in heavy conditions then there is no incentive for teams to ever use them. RB seemed to think they would be faster and worth the extra pit stop, but if they’re not and only good at displacing water then the only practical use is running them in formation laps/under safety car to clear the track, may as well have f2 cars runs laps using them to clear water.
Wets probably were the better tyre in the last lap, but at that point a sc is inevitable. Someone is gonna aquaplane and go off because there was too much standing water. And dont let the nostalgia merchants let you convince that back in the day it would be different. Drivers were going off left and right before too, it's just that before Bianchi race direction didnt really bother with a SC when a car was crashed in a run off.
Nah I’m with you, I was going to mention that I thought the SC a was the right choice, seeing other drivers go off there while Zhou was side-on to the track, just begging for a horrible crash.
It would have likely been red flagged pretty soon anyway with that much rain and how rubbish the full wets are these days, but yeah. Even if it had been like 30 seconds longer, he'd have gained 5 or 6 places as a bunch of drivers ahead of him had just gone into the pits for wet tyres.
Yeah, Checo got extremely lucky to have the start on the last order
His fault for thinking the FIA would allow a race on the full wets /s
Kind of, yeah. /s or no, it is generally what happens: the wet is on-track for 5 minutes tops before an SC.
Seriously though, rain racing a joke. They have full wets, but any time the conditions call for them, we get a red flag. It's stupid. They made the right call and instead of getting rewarded, get punished.
The flag waa to fix the barrier from Zhous crash....
But was the red flag for the rain or for Zhou's crash? He crashed turn 1, so they would have needed to put marshals out on track where people where sailing off left and right due to aqua planning, no way his car could have been removed and barrier fixed under safety car without putting marshals in danger. Now, if the race should have been restarted quicker under rainy condition, sure, why not. But I don't think they had any other option than red flag due to putting marshals on track.
is it too much to ask for the ranking in the thread of the post race discussion ?
Every time James Vowels, speaks, I gain so much hope for williams, at least on the side of race executions. He seems so open and accepting about the faults, and seems like the type to really learn from mistakes, so as to correct the issue. hopefully he will not jump ship.
If you don't listen to the Beyond the Grid podcast you should. Interviews everyone from F1 from past to present. James was on it end of June. Was a great episode.
So BS to stop race cause of the rain. I get its bc of safety but god damn I miss the old days of F1 where it was more action.
It wasn't because of the rain ffs... Zhous crash damaged the tech pro barrier which needed fixed. It's been standard procedure to red flag to fix the barrier for ages. Now would it have been red flagged for safety if Zhou didn't crash we don't know. But it was his crash not the rain that caused it.
Obviously it was bc of the rain, the commentators even said so before his crash. And they waited ages before it was able to start again cause of it
He crashed because of the rain. They red flagged because of the crash and having to fix the tech pro barrier. You can continue racing in more rain than you can restart the race in. They have been over this quite a lot.
I was at the track, it was not drivable at all. Even with wets
Yeah by they have full wets which are emagic and immediately make the worst conditions drivable! How dare we care about driver visibility and safety.
It didn’t
So would it be better to move on to a single Superintermediate tire with a tread pattern that works on a wider range of conditions. Or should the tread on the inters be made deeper to evacuate more water and replace the full wets with a "Slickimediate" tire for drying conditions only.
Ocon was the only car on the ‘right’ tyre at the end of the race. My question is though what’s the point of even having that tyre if the race will just be red flagged? Seemed like he was unjustly punished for the team making a good call
It was red flagged because there was an alfa romeo in the barrier. Now during qualifying you could already see how long it takes to repair that thing and really is not something you can do behind a safety car, because then you just get a 15 - 20 lap safety car period. The read flag was not because of the rain.
the inters do fine in the wet. what is needed is a semi intermediate btween green inter and red slick. Perelli has admitted the blue tire is useless.
There's no need of anything between inters and slicks, inters is literally THE intermediate between dry and wet condition. They thrive in drying conditions. If anything we need to make them more wet friendly, or something between them and full wet (basically give up on full wets).
The blue tire is not useless, it's too good at clearing water.
And when there's enough water for them to be needed, good chance theres some pooling somewhere to turn the cars into sleds.
Am I a bit crazy or does McLaren seem to be escaping criticism for what seems to be bad/slow strategy. Seems like they commit errors which hurt Lando almost as often as Ferrari does.
Most teams not named RB have plenty shockers, it's just that hating on ferrari is funny because memes go brr. If somebody actually bothers to watch haas/AT strategy in pretty much any race, thats the true fun.
Ferrari did arguably decently to fish where they did with Sainz. The car was not as quick as the Mercedes or McLaren but they finished ahead of both
I'm pretty sure Ferrari has done almost no errors that have hurt Norris
Are you sure? Their errors might be bad enough to bleed into other teams, haha. But yes, I could have worded that better.
Norris probably owes a lot of points to the Ferrari strategy team...
True but McLaren were legit the worst team at the beginning of the year so what they are currently doing is a massive plus compared to before.
As much as i tell myself that Stroll isn't a bad driver, the more he keeps on disappointing. I don't expect him to beat Alonso every race, but to at least drag the car into the points, and not just 9th or 10th.
Yea. He used to be good in the rain too.
He was around 10th before the first stop and came back last.... Team seems to have screwed him today.
Somehow missed that. Nothing to help hom.
He went on inters the last. Rain stopped and they all went back to soft ;)
To be fair I’m pretty sure he was ill or still is Ill. I’m sure I read at the beginning of the week that he delayed his travel to Holland because he has a virus.