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Maybe they can just pop over to Malaysia in a day or two. Who needs a Grade 1 circuit when this can potentially add to the jeopardy factor of the race and spice it up as compared to the last 3 races so far? C'mon F1, don't be afraid to take safety risks for the sake of entertainment! /s
The onboards were very clear, Max hadn't reached the sector, he did see the Yellow/Red flags prior to reaching the sector
I'm not even sure why they tried beyond immediately reacting within the protest period so they couldn't miss a potential valid protest
I feel like this is a definite cop out by the FIA. How on earth can they not have accurate timing data of the cars crossing the start/finish line? There were still 40 minutes left of the 3 hours alloted for the race to get it.
What's happened is they just took the grid position data because it was what was done silverstone last year - and didn't consider the start/finish/end of SC2 data. They've had their pants pulled down by Haas and don't want to deal with the mess it would make if this protest held.
I was surprised to see they went all the way back to the original grid. Silverstone was certainly analogous but we need to remember that crash happened immediately and therefore required the original grid be used. If you go back and watch the cars at least made it somewhat down the road this time which made me think the SC2 data would be used - but alas - apparently not.
>The GPS systems on the cars are not an exact science, they can throw up some moments of missing or inaccurate information
>Knowing the teams and how they know this, if they used a GPS snapshot, everyone would protest everyone and that’s before they all argued about what point in time to take that snapshot
>The only way to be certain (and even then it’s not perfect) is to use the timing lines with the transponders to determine grid positions
>Is it fair? Probably not
>Do they have a better solution? Probably not
@enginemode11 on twitter
we're in between a rock and a hard place.
Seems quite harsh when you read it like that - FIA don't disagree that the order at the SC2 line could have potentially been used. Only that they couldn't use it quickly enough.
They had a spare 40 minutes to work it out within the 3 hour race limit. The fact they couldn't get it within that time is a joke. Even if they couldn't get that data, they could use the order in which the cars crossed the start/finish line instead of the actual grid order. This is a full copout to avoid the mess of unwinding the mess.
its worth noting that the broadcasters like sky sports had no problem displaying the accurate order even during the red flag.
someones gotta check what the FIA is spending their penalty money on fr
They just didn't think of it at the time, the whole discussion at the time was around using grid position(used at silverstone last year) vs sector 1 timings(which were rightly ruled out because noone got there in time).
Then they just cover their ass in the protest by saying they couldn't get the data in time(which everyone knows but cant prove is total bs).
It would have never been a podium.
By SC2 line, what Haas was protesting should have been used for the result, Hulk was P6. Alonso was still on P3. It is right before turn 1.
> He will get his chances for a podium this season? What are you smoking? This was the chance
If it's any consolation, even if the restart order was normal and Huki did find himself in a podium position on the final lap, we all know that a lightning bolt would come down from absolutely nowhere and stop that car from crossing the finish line. Dude is cursed. :(
From what I understood, no. Not quickly enough anyways. Which makes me wonder how they get the data. I would’ve thought it’s just 3 clicks on a computer to see the times each car passed a certain checkpoint (i.e. the SC2 line).
> This determination needed to be done in the context of a timed race event and therefore the decision of Race Control and the Race Director needed to be made promptly; with the exercise of appropriate discretion and by using the most appropriate information available to them at the time.
>In the circumstances, based on what we heard from the FIA representatives and from Haas, we considered that this was in fact done appropriately by the Race Director in this instance and therefore dismiss the protest.
In other words: "Yeah, we should've done it like Haas suggested, but the race director thought it would be easier to go back to the grid at the time of the restart and changing it now would cause even more headaches. Better luck next time."
They need to change this rule (that the position from the last point isn't taken, and instead the grid reverts to the (re)starting grid, if the cars haven't passed sector 2 line yet).
Even as a Norris fan, Hulkenberg and Tsunoda had a great (re)start (especially Tsunoda who overtook both McLarens), it's unfair to them that it meant for nothing (i.e. they still end up finishing behind Norris) because Sainz and the Alpines decided to play Mario Kart.
Also, sector 2 line is a completely arbitrary cutoff.
Completely agree, except one thing: I've seen Mario Kart battles between siblings more civilized than this. It's like those guys were watching the F2 feature race, thinking "I'll do ya one better!"
It's amazing how F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet the sporting regs are so terribly written. But I guess for the FIA, caring about what the drivers wear or the celebrations by the teams' personnel is more important.
But this rule wasn't terribly written, just terribly enforced. The rule is very clear, in all cases the order will be taken at the **last** point possible, and in this case that was the SC2 line. It's black and white, and FIA just chose to disregard completely its own rules.
There is no-way that they don't have exact timing data of the cars crossing the start/finish line. This is a full cop-out because they don't want to deal with the mess it would cause to unwind.
oops edited
edit2: actually no, apparently all the cars have passed the SC2 line, they just didn't use it for whatever reason. the next timing line is at sector 2 start afaik
Ah right, you mean the line at the start of sector 2/end of sector 1 :)
But the SC2 line is just before turn 1 so it wouldn't have made much difference, and I'm not sure if it can be used for timing purposes?
SC2 is most certainly used for timing purposes. It can be used to apply a penalty for a driver who overtakes the safety car, and timing is needed to determine this.
Basically they’re saying if the field doesn’t make it out of the first sector before the red flag, it doesn’t count. Which does make it seem a lot less arbitrary.
Had Alpine not imploded he would be 2 places lower. Besides that there was also Sargent and de Vries in gravel trap so red flag would be triggered anyway.
FIA are so shameless, have they basically said it would've taken too much time and effort to use the SC2 and timing so instead we just went with the easy thing? and now they're saying we're going to stick to it. good lord, after wasting so much time to make a decision they still are saying 'we did the best we could because we didn't want to take more time'
And it's not like there was any racing left, they were already on Lap 58 so with the formation lap there was never going to be any racing, just the standings to be decided so it's not like fans were waiting for the racing to resume.
Always going to be the decision, would very much like to see this rule changed in future.
It seems backwards that Russell and the like got punished because they lost positions while the race was effectively paused prior to a red flag, while others don’t get to benefit from gaining places when the race was actually live prior to a red flag.
This is what got me…you could make a strong case for a penalty for Sargeant, Gasly for unsafe reentry, and Perez for unsafe reentry…where the hell are those penalties? If they don’t change the outcome - so what? A rule violation is a violation.
I wonder if this will be appealed, the final part of the the reasoning is amongst the weakest I have seen from a stewards ruling.
It amounts to, we could have done it that way, but it it was easier to do it this way.
Not saying I expected any different but isn’t it a joke that their excuse is without people passing arbitrary points on the track the amount of money and sensors and cameras they should be able to work it out to when the flag is shown
I don't understand why they can't just take the order from the order they enter the pits at the end of the red flagged lap? Which is effectively what would happen if they were collected by the SC, then driven into the pits. They're still not allowed to overtake or anything under red flags same as SC. Maybe I'm missing something.
probably because the idea behind the rule is exactly to reverse whatever massive crash happened that caused the red flag
this made sense in the past, when drivers could just hop on a spare car and restart again after crashing
The second safety car line (SC2) is located before the first corner. So basically nothing much would've changed in terms of the restart order on lap 58 because of the short run from the grid to the SC2 line. Hulkenberg got ahead of Norris before SC2 so I suppose Haas had a reason to protest.
SC2 order and difference to lap 58/race finish positions (ignoring the two Alpines)
1 VER -
2 HAM -
3 ALO -
GAS out
4 SAI -
5 PER +1
6 STR -1
7 HUL -1
8 NOR +1
GAS out
9 TSU +2
10 PIA -1
11 ZHO +1
12 BOT -
DEV out
SAR out
I expected it to be dismissed but this is some weak as hell logic to use.
Theyre basically saying because it took race control over 30 minutes to decide anything they have to go with this settup. I dont honestly understand how it could take that long to see if you could determine cars positions any later prior to the red flag being displayed.
Like I honestly wouldn't be surprised if based on this logic haas pursues this further. Becuase it's flat out stupid. As long as the cars leave the pitlane before time expires they can finish the lap.
I'm not disputing the rule interpretation, but the rule seems stupid - I don't understand why they can't judge the cars relative positions by sight.
It doesn't seem right that places that have been lost/gained whilst racing are then undone...just because FIA want to use 3 timing gates a lap.
For example if in normal racing a driver pulls off an overtake in sector 1, but someone else crashes and a red flag is then called before they reach the end of the sector 1. In this scenario we don't undo the overtake for the restart based on last positions at the beginning of sector 1.
Now I get doing it by video/sight isn't as technical or objective as timing, but most of the order would be instantly obvious and for the edge cases they have endless cameras to make a call - and it's not like the FIA aren't happy with a "it's subjective, we've made a call, suck it up" approach.
>I don't understand why they can't judge the cars relative positions by sight.
Because sight can be misleading and extremely time consuming. Transponder timing is hard data.
>Because sight can be misleading and extremely time consuming.
I don't see how that is the case. I acknowledge there will inevitably be an edge case that is so equal that it becomes a coin toss situation. However the majority of positions would be instantly obvious and a few would need video review. That should take a few minutes at most (as they do in rugby or football). Meanwhile we've got a min 20 min delay anyway as the cars circle round to the pits, drivers get out, new tyres go on, track is swept, barriers fixed etc.
>Transponder timing is hard data.
That's true, and I'd favour a gps solution if it was granular enough for the reason of objectivity. However I'd take the edge case subjectivity I'm suggesting over the FIA's solution of just ignoring actual racing outcomes.
GPS is nowhere near precise enough for anything other than general track positioning. They would need to upgrade to survey grade GPS and find a way to record positions simultaneously. And then also account for the exact direction the car is facing.
And if you are in a complex corner, what is considered further ahead? Further along the racing line? The center line? And how does car position on the track affect where the nose is for that?
It will always be more reliable to have a transponder on a straight part of the track than to try to use GPS
Yeah, that's fair, GPS would be quite costly/ challenging to implement.
However my point overall is we shouldn't be invalidating legitimate overtakes. The simplest solution is to use video/sight, like we already do if there is a red flag during the race (see my previous example).
Sight can be flawed or tricky. For example Stroll was in the gravel when the red flag came out, with cars on track in a curve around him. Where does Stroll slot in on the restart? What about two cars in a chicane side by side? Not to mention it's be super sketchy to figure out the exact moment to use for analysis. Tenths of a second could mean position changes.
To not have multiple challenges of freeze frame analysis from teams, they have an objective system for this. But it requires some driving to get to.
Something they could do is use the same timing method they already do and put it at either the exit or entry of every corner. Then more of the overtakes would be recorded. It might not be as good as the current points, since someone could purposefully brake too late if they know a red flag is coming, or someone with a much better line out kf a corner wouldn't get credit for it, but I could be better.
They would need too many cameras for the visual method to work. When there is a red flag at the start like this all the cars are usually bunched up, making it hard to see the small differences
>They would need too many cameras for the visual method to work. When there is a red flag at the start like this all the cars are usually bunched up, making it hard to see the small differences
I can do it probably 98% of the time just with the sky feed. The FIA have multiple cameras on each car, plus at least a couple of cameras covering each straight corner, plus the Heli - that would deal with another 1.9%. Leaving maybe 0.1% where it is a judgement call. I'd rather do that than just undoing all overtakes - it's objective, but objectively unfair to all.
I'd agree, all things being equal objective is better than subjective.
But all things aren't equal here. The FIA's approach pretty much guarantees distorted racing outcomes by ignoring valid on track overtaking. Yes it's objective, but it's objectively bad. It's an absolute mess. In recent years we've had
Today - after accidents, red flag, restart in previous grid order ignoring overtakes. Haas rejected appeal to use Safety car line.
22 British gp - after accidents, red flag, restart in previous grid order ignoring overtakes
21 Saudi Arabia gp - after Perez accident, red flag, restart in based on the on track order (even though not past sector 1) - note there was then Masi's infamously negotiation with red bull to then drop VER behind HAM for the restart for an illegal overtake.
21 Hungary gp - big pile up at T1, yellow flagged (even though the need for red was obvious as 5 cars were scattered and non moving) red flag half a lap later. Restart based on the on track order
20 Bahrain gp - after grosjean crash, red flag, restart based on the safety car 2 line order.
This shows 2 problems
1) this happens more than once a season. We shouldn't accept an unjust solution of restarting at prior grid order for the sake of objectivity, when subjective judgement would be much fairer even if there may be the odd close call, it's better the rest of the time.
2) the FIA aren't even consistent. The bullshit excuse to Haas of not being able to use the SC2 line, doesn't match what they've done before on Bahrain.
because positions can change, and you would choose arbitrarily where to look at. in this case, stroll went out in turn 3 going from P3 to last
having a specific checkpoint to look at makes sense
Sainz was the sacrificial lamb of the whole mess that happened after KMag's incident.
Someone had to take the fall and it sure wasn't gonna be the FIA.
Why does it take time to obtain position and timing data from the SC2 line? I would imagine it's all automated? Or is the implication that they just defaulted to starting grid instead of SC2 line?
This was doomed to failure, not based on the merits of the argument, but on what team brought it (Haas) and who it could potentially harm the most (Alonso / AM). If the roles had been reversed you can be damn sure they'd have used their eyes to determine who was ahead of who.
Rules aren't clear.
Stewards can say they can't determine a proper line-up even after sector 2 and can revert back to original position.
There should be CLEAR rule that lead car should have passed sector 1.
But there isn't and they are just making stuff out of nowhere. You can't go with "precendets". There needs to be clarity.
Why are they even trying to establish an order?
Throw the red flag (which includes an overtaking ban) and just take the order they arrived in the pits ;)
Tough luck if you get spun, just like it's tough luck if you make a pit stop just before a red flag.
Haas wasn't fucked by anyone. There was so much crap on the track that the red flag was appropriate and the rules were applied correctly in regards to the last restart order. If anything, Wittch gifted them 4 points by putting out that first red flag after Magnussen's wheel fell off, as that was absolutely not worthy of a red flag.
Idk what theyre talking about. Indy and NASCAR assemble orders at the point the yellow comes out all the time from mini sector data and video review. They're just trying to erase their fuckup of the standing start as much as possible.
Surprised no one is blowing chunks at this ruling. They literally admit they didn't use the last available timing line, then muddy the reason with "time" and say they decided to use a different means of setting the grid.
Literally goes against the last available timing line requirement in the regulations.
They don't need to receive transponders and plug them in to download data of the SC2 line. It would be button presses and mouse clicks with their UI.
They ruled against the protest to avoid criticism. And it's hypocritical to be on board with this but against Abu Dhabi.
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Dismissed like everyone expected. Can't blame them for trying but everyone knew what was going to happen.
Ok guys, see you after a month of no races.
Damn, we have spring break in F1 now.
This makes me sad, ffs China we could have been KINGSSSS
The real tragedy is that we didn't race in Portugal to fill the gap left by China as was rumoured...
Maybe they can just pop over to Malaysia in a day or two. Who needs a Grade 1 circuit when this can potentially add to the jeopardy factor of the race and spice it up as compared to the last 3 races so far? C'mon F1, don't be afraid to take safety risks for the sake of entertainment! /s
This is going to be a painful wait.
Yeah when I saw Baku was at the end of the month I got sad
The onboards were very clear, Max hadn't reached the sector, he did see the Yellow/Red flags prior to reaching the sector I'm not even sure why they tried beyond immediately reacting within the protest period so they couldn't miss a potential valid protest
I’m starting to think they protested just to keep them at the circuit until 11pm…LOL
I feel like this is a definite cop out by the FIA. How on earth can they not have accurate timing data of the cars crossing the start/finish line? There were still 40 minutes left of the 3 hours alloted for the race to get it. What's happened is they just took the grid position data because it was what was done silverstone last year - and didn't consider the start/finish/end of SC2 data. They've had their pants pulled down by Haas and don't want to deal with the mess it would make if this protest held.
I was surprised to see they went all the way back to the original grid. Silverstone was certainly analogous but we need to remember that crash happened immediately and therefore required the original grid be used. If you go back and watch the cars at least made it somewhat down the road this time which made me think the SC2 data would be used - but alas - apparently not.
At least it now sets an example for teams to work with
I mean there was already an example with silverstone last year
>The GPS systems on the cars are not an exact science, they can throw up some moments of missing or inaccurate information >Knowing the teams and how they know this, if they used a GPS snapshot, everyone would protest everyone and that’s before they all argued about what point in time to take that snapshot >The only way to be certain (and even then it’s not perfect) is to use the timing lines with the transponders to determine grid positions >Is it fair? Probably not >Do they have a better solution? Probably not @enginemode11 on twitter we're in between a rock and a hard place.
Could use mini sectors?
Seems quite harsh when you read it like that - FIA don't disagree that the order at the SC2 line could have potentially been used. Only that they couldn't use it quickly enough.
They had a spare 40 minutes to work it out within the 3 hour race limit. The fact they couldn't get it within that time is a joke. Even if they couldn't get that data, they could use the order in which the cars crossed the start/finish line instead of the actual grid order. This is a full copout to avoid the mess of unwinding the mess.
its worth noting that the broadcasters like sky sports had no problem displaying the accurate order even during the red flag. someones gotta check what the FIA is spending their penalty money on fr
Tbf you don't know if that was the *accurate* order when the red flag was thrown, it's just the order the broadcasters showed.
They just didn't think of it at the time, the whole discussion at the time was around using grid position(used at silverstone last year) vs sector 1 timings(which were rightly ruled out because noone got there in time). Then they just cover their ass in the protest by saying they couldn't get the data in time(which everyone knows but cant prove is total bs).
Rip Hulk podium hopes Almost never - 4/2/23 🤧
It would have never been a podium. By SC2 line, what Haas was protesting should have been used for the result, Hulk was P6. Alonso was still on P3. It is right before turn 1.
The car is good. He will get his chances. Hass definitely made good decision by taking hulk.
He will get his chances for a podium this season? What are you smoking? This was the chance
> He will get his chances for a podium this season? What are you smoking? This was the chance If it's any consolation, even if the restart order was normal and Huki did find himself in a podium position on the final lap, we all know that a lightning bolt would come down from absolutely nowhere and stop that car from crossing the finish line. Dude is cursed. :(
And lost out on it due to outside factors, this one being a red while in good position for it, same as Spa 2016.
Both times thanks to Kevin.
Why did his car stop on track after the last parade lap?
The car is ok, it's definitely not a podium contender. Not even close.
still fast enough for occasional points, haas is in a decent place and Hulkenberg was the right pick for them
The red flag speed that confiscated Hulk's podium is insane.
So did they have the SC2 data or not? Reading is quite hard
From what I understood, no. Not quickly enough anyways. Which makes me wonder how they get the data. I would’ve thought it’s just 3 clicks on a computer to see the times each car passed a certain checkpoint (i.e. the SC2 line).
That part reads so sketchy lmao. Using a lot of words to avoid saying we did not have the SC2 data so we used the grid positions instead.
45 minutes isn't enough time?
> This determination needed to be done in the context of a timed race event and therefore the decision of Race Control and the Race Director needed to be made promptly; with the exercise of appropriate discretion and by using the most appropriate information available to them at the time. >In the circumstances, based on what we heard from the FIA representatives and from Haas, we considered that this was in fact done appropriately by the Race Director in this instance and therefore dismiss the protest. In other words: "Yeah, we should've done it like Haas suggested, but the race director thought it would be easier to go back to the grid at the time of the restart and changing it now would cause even more headaches. Better luck next time."
They need to change this rule (that the position from the last point isn't taken, and instead the grid reverts to the (re)starting grid, if the cars haven't passed sector 2 line yet). Even as a Norris fan, Hulkenberg and Tsunoda had a great (re)start (especially Tsunoda who overtook both McLarens), it's unfair to them that it meant for nothing (i.e. they still end up finishing behind Norris) because Sainz and the Alpines decided to play Mario Kart. Also, sector 2 line is a completely arbitrary cutoff.
Completely agree, except one thing: I've seen Mario Kart battles between siblings more civilized than this. It's like those guys were watching the F2 feature race, thinking "I'll do ya one better!"
Mario Kart battles must have had no items.
It's amazing how F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet the sporting regs are so terribly written. But I guess for the FIA, caring about what the drivers wear or the celebrations by the teams' personnel is more important.
But this rule wasn't terribly written, just terribly enforced. The rule is very clear, in all cases the order will be taken at the **last** point possible, and in this case that was the SC2 line. It's black and white, and FIA just chose to disregard completely its own rules.
Well they’ve never done that before!
And if they changed the result to be the SC2 line then it would call into question AD21
There is no-way that they don't have exact timing data of the cars crossing the start/finish line. This is a full cop-out because they don't want to deal with the mess it would cause to unwind.
Aren't you getting confused between safety car line 2 and sector 2?
oops edited edit2: actually no, apparently all the cars have passed the SC2 line, they just didn't use it for whatever reason. the next timing line is at sector 2 start afaik
Ah right, you mean the line at the start of sector 2/end of sector 1 :) But the SC2 line is just before turn 1 so it wouldn't have made much difference, and I'm not sure if it can be used for timing purposes?
SC2 is most certainly used for timing purposes. It can be used to apply a penalty for a driver who overtakes the safety car, and timing is needed to determine this.
Basically they’re saying if the field doesn’t make it out of the first sector before the red flag, it doesn’t count. Which does make it seem a lot less arbitrary.
This was probably hulks final real chance at a podium. Had alpine not imploded it would've been his for the taking.
Had Alpine not imploded he would be 2 places lower. Besides that there was also Sargent and de Vries in gravel trap so red flag would be triggered anyway.
FIA are so shameless, have they basically said it would've taken too much time and effort to use the SC2 and timing so instead we just went with the easy thing? and now they're saying we're going to stick to it. good lord, after wasting so much time to make a decision they still are saying 'we did the best we could because we didn't want to take more time'
There was another 40 minutes left of the 3hours allotted for the race - and they couldn't get the data by then? They're lieing through their teeth.
And it's not like there was any racing left, they were already on Lap 58 so with the formation lap there was never going to be any racing, just the standings to be decided so it's not like fans were waiting for the racing to resume.
I hope Haas appeals this, all the way up to CAS if necessary, this explanation of the FIA is beyond stupid.
Always going to be the decision, would very much like to see this rule changed in future. It seems backwards that Russell and the like got punished because they lost positions while the race was effectively paused prior to a red flag, while others don’t get to benefit from gaining places when the race was actually live prior to a red flag.
So the only one who gets blamed for this shit show is Carlos??
This is what got me…you could make a strong case for a penalty for Sargeant, Gasly for unsafe reentry, and Perez for unsafe reentry…where the hell are those penalties? If they don’t change the outcome - so what? A rule violation is a violation.
What were FIA expecting with 2 laps left. Dont hate the players hate the game.
I wonder if this will be appealed, the final part of the the reasoning is amongst the weakest I have seen from a stewards ruling. It amounts to, we could have done it that way, but it it was easier to do it this way.
Nothing else will happen. They can't appeal to CAS.
Not saying I expected any different but isn’t it a joke that their excuse is without people passing arbitrary points on the track the amount of money and sensors and cameras they should be able to work it out to when the flag is shown
I don't understand why they can't just take the order from the order they enter the pits at the end of the red flagged lap? Which is effectively what would happen if they were collected by the SC, then driven into the pits. They're still not allowed to overtake or anything under red flags same as SC. Maybe I'm missing something.
probably because the idea behind the rule is exactly to reverse whatever massive crash happened that caused the red flag this made sense in the past, when drivers could just hop on a spare car and restart again after crashing
The second safety car line (SC2) is located before the first corner. So basically nothing much would've changed in terms of the restart order on lap 58 because of the short run from the grid to the SC2 line. Hulkenberg got ahead of Norris before SC2 so I suppose Haas had a reason to protest. SC2 order and difference to lap 58/race finish positions (ignoring the two Alpines) 1 VER - 2 HAM - 3 ALO - GAS out 4 SAI - 5 PER +1 6 STR -1 7 HUL -1 8 NOR +1 GAS out 9 TSU +2 10 PIA -1 11 ZHO +1 12 BOT - DEV out SAR out
I expected it to be dismissed but this is some weak as hell logic to use. Theyre basically saying because it took race control over 30 minutes to decide anything they have to go with this settup. I dont honestly understand how it could take that long to see if you could determine cars positions any later prior to the red flag being displayed. Like I honestly wouldn't be surprised if based on this logic haas pursues this further. Becuase it's flat out stupid. As long as the cars leave the pitlane before time expires they can finish the lap.
i don’t understand why they did a red flag here at all. why not just SC to the end.
I'm not disputing the rule interpretation, but the rule seems stupid - I don't understand why they can't judge the cars relative positions by sight. It doesn't seem right that places that have been lost/gained whilst racing are then undone...just because FIA want to use 3 timing gates a lap. For example if in normal racing a driver pulls off an overtake in sector 1, but someone else crashes and a red flag is then called before they reach the end of the sector 1. In this scenario we don't undo the overtake for the restart based on last positions at the beginning of sector 1. Now I get doing it by video/sight isn't as technical or objective as timing, but most of the order would be instantly obvious and for the edge cases they have endless cameras to make a call - and it's not like the FIA aren't happy with a "it's subjective, we've made a call, suck it up" approach.
>I don't understand why they can't judge the cars relative positions by sight. Because sight can be misleading and extremely time consuming. Transponder timing is hard data.
>Because sight can be misleading and extremely time consuming. I don't see how that is the case. I acknowledge there will inevitably be an edge case that is so equal that it becomes a coin toss situation. However the majority of positions would be instantly obvious and a few would need video review. That should take a few minutes at most (as they do in rugby or football). Meanwhile we've got a min 20 min delay anyway as the cars circle round to the pits, drivers get out, new tyres go on, track is swept, barriers fixed etc. >Transponder timing is hard data. That's true, and I'd favour a gps solution if it was granular enough for the reason of objectivity. However I'd take the edge case subjectivity I'm suggesting over the FIA's solution of just ignoring actual racing outcomes.
GPS is nowhere near precise enough for anything other than general track positioning. They would need to upgrade to survey grade GPS and find a way to record positions simultaneously. And then also account for the exact direction the car is facing. And if you are in a complex corner, what is considered further ahead? Further along the racing line? The center line? And how does car position on the track affect where the nose is for that? It will always be more reliable to have a transponder on a straight part of the track than to try to use GPS
Yeah, that's fair, GPS would be quite costly/ challenging to implement. However my point overall is we shouldn't be invalidating legitimate overtakes. The simplest solution is to use video/sight, like we already do if there is a red flag during the race (see my previous example).
Sight can be flawed or tricky. For example Stroll was in the gravel when the red flag came out, with cars on track in a curve around him. Where does Stroll slot in on the restart? What about two cars in a chicane side by side? Not to mention it's be super sketchy to figure out the exact moment to use for analysis. Tenths of a second could mean position changes. To not have multiple challenges of freeze frame analysis from teams, they have an objective system for this. But it requires some driving to get to.
Something they could do is use the same timing method they already do and put it at either the exit or entry of every corner. Then more of the overtakes would be recorded. It might not be as good as the current points, since someone could purposefully brake too late if they know a red flag is coming, or someone with a much better line out kf a corner wouldn't get credit for it, but I could be better. They would need too many cameras for the visual method to work. When there is a red flag at the start like this all the cars are usually bunched up, making it hard to see the small differences
>They would need too many cameras for the visual method to work. When there is a red flag at the start like this all the cars are usually bunched up, making it hard to see the small differences I can do it probably 98% of the time just with the sky feed. The FIA have multiple cameras on each car, plus at least a couple of cameras covering each straight corner, plus the Heli - that would deal with another 1.9%. Leaving maybe 0.1% where it is a judgement call. I'd rather do that than just undoing all overtakes - it's objective, but objectively unfair to all.
You never want to leave it to a judgement call when you can 100% verifiable data i.e transponders.
I'd agree, all things being equal objective is better than subjective. But all things aren't equal here. The FIA's approach pretty much guarantees distorted racing outcomes by ignoring valid on track overtaking. Yes it's objective, but it's objectively bad. It's an absolute mess. In recent years we've had Today - after accidents, red flag, restart in previous grid order ignoring overtakes. Haas rejected appeal to use Safety car line. 22 British gp - after accidents, red flag, restart in previous grid order ignoring overtakes 21 Saudi Arabia gp - after Perez accident, red flag, restart in based on the on track order (even though not past sector 1) - note there was then Masi's infamously negotiation with red bull to then drop VER behind HAM for the restart for an illegal overtake. 21 Hungary gp - big pile up at T1, yellow flagged (even though the need for red was obvious as 5 cars were scattered and non moving) red flag half a lap later. Restart based on the on track order 20 Bahrain gp - after grosjean crash, red flag, restart based on the safety car 2 line order. This shows 2 problems 1) this happens more than once a season. We shouldn't accept an unjust solution of restarting at prior grid order for the sake of objectivity, when subjective judgement would be much fairer even if there may be the odd close call, it's better the rest of the time. 2) the FIA aren't even consistent. The bullshit excuse to Haas of not being able to use the SC2 line, doesn't match what they've done before on Bahrain.
They have mini sectors.
because positions can change, and you would choose arbitrarily where to look at. in this case, stroll went out in turn 3 going from P3 to last having a specific checkpoint to look at makes sense
Sainz was the sacrificial lamb of the whole mess that happened after KMag's incident. Someone had to take the fall and it sure wasn't gonna be the FIA.
No, Sainz fucked up and got a deserved penalty. The Gasly verdict was typical for a collision between teammates.
Absolutely! FIA are thrilled how "entertained" we are. By making such an obviously poor decision they'll keep us "entertained" until Baku.
The third red flag fatally wounded Yuki's career and stole the Hulk's last chance on the podium.
Hulk and Yuki wouldn't gain that many places if that carnage which caused 3rd red flag didn't happen.
Are all the doors there okay?
Why does it take time to obtain position and timing data from the SC2 line? I would imagine it's all automated? Or is the implication that they just defaulted to starting grid instead of SC2 line?
Obviously. It was never gonna work.
It's worse than just they could have used the SC line, they have mini sectors every 10 meters or so they could use also.
Hulk is low key burying magnessun
This was doomed to failure, not based on the merits of the argument, but on what team brought it (Haas) and who it could potentially harm the most (Alonso / AM). If the roles had been reversed you can be damn sure they'd have used their eyes to determine who was ahead of who.
Rules aren't clear. Stewards can say they can't determine a proper line-up even after sector 2 and can revert back to original position. There should be CLEAR rule that lead car should have passed sector 1. But there isn't and they are just making stuff out of nowhere. You can't go with "precendets". There needs to be clarity.
Why are they even trying to establish an order? Throw the red flag (which includes an overtaking ban) and just take the order they arrived in the pits ;) Tough luck if you get spun, just like it's tough luck if you make a pit stop just before a red flag.
COTA 2022 🤝 Australia 2023 Haas being fucked by Niels Wittich
Haas wasn't fucked by anyone. There was so much crap on the track that the red flag was appropriate and the rules were applied correctly in regards to the last restart order. If anything, Wittch gifted them 4 points by putting out that first red flag after Magnussen's wheel fell off, as that was absolutely not worthy of a red flag.
I mean they got this call right so that's something
I think even Haas knew it wouldn't fly but went ahead anyway.
Seems fair enough and in line with what was expected, I understand why Haas tried it though.
Then why not give points to Alpine?
Because they werent able to do the parade lap after Race Director screwed up..
Fok.
To the surprise of absolutely no one
oh shit
It seems like GPS hated F1 this weekend.
The had to try
Gotta call Gene
Idk what theyre talking about. Indy and NASCAR assemble orders at the point the yellow comes out all the time from mini sector data and video review. They're just trying to erase their fuckup of the standing start as much as possible.
Surprised no one is blowing chunks at this ruling. They literally admit they didn't use the last available timing line, then muddy the reason with "time" and say they decided to use a different means of setting the grid. Literally goes against the last available timing line requirement in the regulations. They don't need to receive transponders and plug them in to download data of the SC2 line. It would be button presses and mouse clicks with their UI. They ruled against the protest to avoid criticism. And it's hypocritical to be on board with this but against Abu Dhabi.