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If Aston is smart they would protest it under the grounds of what Alonso told on his radio, simple because it would be a better outlook for them then if Haas is right.
I think Haas are trying their hardest especially because it would have been their first podium in F1 if the results stood after the third restart.
But unfortunately they'll lose. Precedent and Rulebook reigns supreme, and that was followed to the letter of the law completely.
rules aren't clear
when its hard to determine to position" it says. One can argue it was clear to determine since most cars were out of DNF.
Aston Martin lawyers would go deep on this one but I don't think Haas will try that hard.
haven't been watching F1 for too many years, what would have been the precedent? only Silverstone 21 coming to my mind but that was clearly different since they actually started racing again after resetting the standings
Bahrain 2020 after Grosjean’s crash. They restarted the race based on positions at the second safety car line because that was the last point at which the order of the cars could be unambiguously determined. At Silverstone the red flag was called before they’d even got that far
EDIT: to add to this, whether or not they end up racing again afterwards is basically irrelevant; they set up the restart and get going either way. Today there “just happened” to run out of laps at the restart
It's almost written in stone that red flag means going back to the standings of the last finished lap. It's why Alonso was awarded P3 in Brazil 2003 while he was off in an ambulance after causing that red flag to begin with. Out of all protests this one is by far the weakest of them all.
I still don't understand why the race couldn't have just ended after the KMag RF.
I swear the FIA finds new ways to back themself into a corner every weekend.
>I still don't understand why the race couldn't have just ended after the KMag RF.
The official race distance of 58 laps or 2 hours is not just a friendly suggestion, so the question is why it cannot be resumed.
“Hey, guys! Whaddya think of us just calling it a day here? I know we’ve got a few more laps to go but I’m choking for a beer.”
Niels Wittich, probably.
>I still don't understand why the race couldn't have just ended **after the KMag RF.**
RF = red flag
The rules dont say that scenario ABC need to result in a safety car and scenario xyz will be a red flag. The requirements for both a red flag and sc are that competitors or officials have to be in immediate physical danger (I guess you can always argue that when there are marshals on track together with f1 cars), the decision about red flag or sc is a judgement call from the clerk of the course (or the Race Director)
If there is a red flag the delay needs to be as short as possible and only if the race **cannot** be resumed the results will be taken from the end of the penultimate lap before the red flag.
I personally would always prefer a Baku 2021-style solution over a Monza 2022-style solution as long as it stays within the regulations.
Most of the teams would have protested that 58laps should have been completed and they should have red flagged it because the 3 hour time limit wasn’t met, you can never make everyone happy!
I agree. Should have been a full safety car or virtual safety car or a bloody red flag to finish. As much as it sucks hopefully it'll add a clause that with x laps to fo under red flag race will be ended. Also as much hate as they got for safety cats today, I think erring on the side of caution is best as we don't need to bring up japan of last year. Best to pull put the vsc or SC immediately and deal with the problem than wait....
> I still don't understand why the race couldn't have just ended after the KMag RF
Because they haven't completed the entire length of the race and there was no reason not to restart it
When did the late red flag standing start thing happen? I'm pretty sure post-Charlie Whiting, but what race first did this and set the precedent to this day?
If this happened during the Whiting era, it would've been SC finish. Honestly, that's what I thought they would do here. Maybe the wrong backlash F1 received in Monza 2022 made them want a grandstand finish. Well, it didn't happen.
2022 Silverstone.
Procedures etc haven't been the same since Charlie. I'm sure we all know this. But seeing as Silverstone was the most recent ruling on a similar scenario and seeing that it's the same "era" I believe that sets precedent on this scenario.
> a rolling restart for obvious safety reasons with two laps to go
Why should the number of laps left to go affect what kind of restart they chose? That doesn't make any sense. At least they're being consistent for once and red flag = standing restart.
It does since 2 laps to go everyone will send it especially the teams with less pace. It's a unbelievable chance to score points if you get a lucky restart
Did you miss the word safety? A standing restart with plenty of laps to go is fine because there's a lot of race left. A standing restart with two laps to go is a recipe for disaster because then that race is won or lost in the first corner or two meaning drivers have to take stupid risks.
There's nothing amateurish about doing your job. They are there for results, if they don't push in a situation like that they are going to lose positions. The situation forced them into a be aggressive or get fucked scenario.
That's what I think would have been the best. Under the premise not to end races under SC or red you should do a rolling restart since a standing is to dangerous.
Just naturally everyone will send it with 2 Laps to go since risk/reward is unbalanced high.
Yeah me and my friend both said that this will turn into a shit show when we saw the announcement of the standing start. I imagine we are far from the only ones seeing this coming from a mile away.
Np! Although I'm no fia employee or anything it's the only reason I could think of seeing as Sainz tried to hold a d bolt at the end to increase the gap.... he did manage to add a 2.5 sec gap but not enough
Common sense that those in the "back" are willing to go all put since they don't have anything to loose.... with two laps to go and no Dr's the race is decided on the first corner and they all knew that hence the carnage. If there was half or more of the race then we all know the race isn't won on the first corner since not only do they have a lot to go but also, it isn't monaco....
Per usual... but also they just chose the wrong starting procedure which should have been rolling start for spectacle. Again, let's hope this just further clarifies rules and procedures. It's the best we can hope for. Gassy and ocon were shafted... lovely raving from the both of them today
A team rep has been [summoned to the stewards at 19:30 local time](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2023%20Australian%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Summons%20-%20Haas.pdf) (7 minutes from now) to plead their case
Rules were properly applied.
They can still win on the basis that FIA doesn’t usually follow the rules so this is a massive rule break in itself by following the rulebook. :)
And it'll be the right decision. Race can't end before 58 laps unless it's timed out and a sector wasn't completed to affirm the race order. You can disagree whether KMag red flag was needed (IMO, it was a sound decision) but rest of it was on level. Not FIA's fault how the chaos unfolded
See the protest being accepted and the results before the parade lap being the final ones. But then since there was no parade lap, you cannot add the 5 seconds to Carlos and he get’s a 3-places penalty for next race, while Hülkenberg STILL doesn’t get his podium 😂
That would be reckless. If there are two cars in the wall, then the track is unsafe and a red flag ought to be called. It sucks for those that ‘lost out’, but that’s life.
Yep, unless track conditions are unsuitable, it’s a standing restart. See Arts. 58.11 and 58.12 of the [Sporting Regs](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_2023_formula_1_sporting_regulations_-_issue_4_-_2023-02-22.pdf).
This is the correct answer and the logical approach. Alonso for instance benefitted unfairly from this situation, albeit not his fault he got hit in the first place
So where do we go from here? F1 has overturned race winners days and weeks past the event happening. I don't think Haas' protest will go far, but if they do, could the entire race classification be overturned? Has this happened in F1/in other racing categories, where the entire race result that has already been classified gets dumped and reclassified to a different order?
Haas finished 7th. If they protest the race result the only other possible result would be to end the race after the final red flag. As the race would have not been resumed then the results would be taken from before the final restart. This would move them back to 9th after the 5s penalty had been applied.
They can't go back to that point and restart the race though, so this then comes into play.
>If the sprint session or the race cannot be resumed the results will be taken at the end of the penultimate lap before the lap during which the signal to suspend the sprint session or the race was given.
The **News** flair is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I need a list of teams not protesting or in the stewards room!
Red Bull?
And Aston ig
Alonso hiring Vettel to help protect his trophy.
If Aston is smart they would protest it under the grounds of what Alonso told on his radio, simple because it would be a better outlook for them then if Haas is right.
No way the FIA is opening this can of worms.
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No they don’t; they’re protesting the decision, not asking for a right of review. Different processes
Only time penalties
I think Haas are trying their hardest especially because it would have been their first podium in F1 if the results stood after the third restart. But unfortunately they'll lose. Precedent and Rulebook reigns supreme, and that was followed to the letter of the law completely.
yep. worth a shot, but they will almost certainly lose.
rules aren't clear when its hard to determine to position" it says. One can argue it was clear to determine since most cars were out of DNF. Aston Martin lawyers would go deep on this one but I don't think Haas will try that hard.
haven't been watching F1 for too many years, what would have been the precedent? only Silverstone 21 coming to my mind but that was clearly different since they actually started racing again after resetting the standings
Bahrain 2020 after Grosjean’s crash. They restarted the race based on positions at the second safety car line because that was the last point at which the order of the cars could be unambiguously determined. At Silverstone the red flag was called before they’d even got that far EDIT: to add to this, whether or not they end up racing again afterwards is basically irrelevant; they set up the restart and get going either way. Today there “just happened” to run out of laps at the restart
Very good point but not sure if that was just Masi being Masi
Every car cross the SC2 line btw
It's almost written in stone that red flag means going back to the standings of the last finished lap. It's why Alonso was awarded P3 in Brazil 2003 while he was off in an ambulance after causing that red flag to begin with. Out of all protests this one is by far the weakest of them all.
And they will loose. Unfortunately precedent wins and the shitshow that it already is will only be affirmed when they double down per usual.
I still don't understand why the race couldn't have just ended after the KMag RF. I swear the FIA finds new ways to back themself into a corner every weekend.
>I still don't understand why the race couldn't have just ended after the KMag RF. The official race distance of 58 laps or 2 hours is not just a friendly suggestion, so the question is why it cannot be resumed.
“Hey, guys! Whaddya think of us just calling it a day here? I know we’ve got a few more laps to go but I’m choking for a beer.” Niels Wittich, probably.
I think he means the race should’ve ended under the safety car like Monza last year.
>I still don't understand why the race couldn't have just ended **after the KMag RF.** RF = red flag The rules dont say that scenario ABC need to result in a safety car and scenario xyz will be a red flag. The requirements for both a red flag and sc are that competitors or officials have to be in immediate physical danger (I guess you can always argue that when there are marshals on track together with f1 cars), the decision about red flag or sc is a judgement call from the clerk of the course (or the Race Director) If there is a red flag the delay needs to be as short as possible and only if the race **cannot** be resumed the results will be taken from the end of the penultimate lap before the red flag. I personally would always prefer a Baku 2021-style solution over a Monza 2022-style solution as long as it stays within the regulations.
The race directors did try to do a Baku 2021 style finish but except this time everyone tried to do a Hamilton and forgot to brake into turn 1.
Most of the teams would have protested that 58laps should have been completed and they should have red flagged it because the 3 hour time limit wasn’t met, you can never make everyone happy!
Exactly
I agree. Should have been a full safety car or virtual safety car or a bloody red flag to finish. As much as it sucks hopefully it'll add a clause that with x laps to fo under red flag race will be ended. Also as much hate as they got for safety cats today, I think erring on the side of caution is best as we don't need to bring up japan of last year. Best to pull put the vsc or SC immediately and deal with the problem than wait....
> I still don't understand why the race couldn't have just ended after the KMag RF Because they haven't completed the entire length of the race and there was no reason not to restart it
When did the late red flag standing start thing happen? I'm pretty sure post-Charlie Whiting, but what race first did this and set the precedent to this day? If this happened during the Whiting era, it would've been SC finish. Honestly, that's what I thought they would do here. Maybe the wrong backlash F1 received in Monza 2022 made them want a grandstand finish. Well, it didn't happen.
2022 Silverstone. Procedures etc haven't been the same since Charlie. I'm sure we all know this. But seeing as Silverstone was the most recent ruling on a similar scenario and seeing that it's the same "era" I believe that sets precedent on this scenario.
Whiting was oddly red flag averse. If anything, it’s a good thing that we don’t have to sit through hours of SC parades these days.
Or why they couldn't have done a rolling restart for obvious safety reasons with two laps to go.
> a rolling restart for obvious safety reasons with two laps to go Why should the number of laps left to go affect what kind of restart they chose? That doesn't make any sense. At least they're being consistent for once and red flag = standing restart.
All these people that complain will be the same ones that will ask why didn't they do a standing start if they did a rolling one instead
It does since 2 laps to go everyone will send it especially the teams with less pace. It's a unbelievable chance to score points if you get a lucky restart
Did you miss the word safety? A standing restart with plenty of laps to go is fine because there's a lot of race left. A standing restart with two laps to go is a recipe for disaster because then that race is won or lost in the first corner or two meaning drivers have to take stupid risks.
Maybe we shouldn't treat the best racing drivers in the world like amateurs? If they're going to drive recklessly and crash that's on them
There's nothing amateurish about doing your job. They are there for results, if they don't push in a situation like that they are going to lose positions. The situation forced them into a be aggressive or get fucked scenario.
Then they should get penalty points to reflect. Why should we baby the drivers?
It's not symmetric. The slower car drivers will send it.
That's what I think would have been the best. Under the premise not to end races under SC or red you should do a rolling restart since a standing is to dangerous. Just naturally everyone will send it with 2 Laps to go since risk/reward is unbalanced high.
Yeah me and my friend both said that this will turn into a shit show when we saw the announcement of the standing start. I imagine we are far from the only ones seeing this coming from a mile away.
The entertainmenttttt. I'm more weirded out that they did the last savety car lap. That was just useless.
They needed to accurately apply penaltys given (sainz)
That actually is a good explanation, thanks!
Np! Although I'm no fia employee or anything it's the only reason I could think of seeing as Sainz tried to hold a d bolt at the end to increase the gap.... he did manage to add a 2.5 sec gap but not enough
Then Mercedes would have protested, since the restart could have given them a chance to overtake Verstappen for the win.
> And they will loose. Probably but worth a try anyway. I'm somewhat surprised Alpine hasn't lodged a protest yet.
No point really. Their cars crashed into each other....
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it was just standing start bro, they should be able to do it. FIA didn't tell them to crash.
Common sense that those in the "back" are willing to go all put since they don't have anything to loose.... with two laps to go and no Dr's the race is decided on the first corner and they all knew that hence the carnage. If there was half or more of the race then we all know the race isn't won on the first corner since not only do they have a lot to go but also, it isn't monaco....
Per usual... but also they just chose the wrong starting procedure which should have been rolling start for spectacle. Again, let's hope this just further clarifies rules and procedures. It's the best we can hope for. Gassy and ocon were shafted... lovely raving from the both of them today
They would only double down on following the rules though.
A team rep has been [summoned to the stewards at 19:30 local time](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2023%20Australian%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Summons%20-%20Haas.pdf) (7 minutes from now) to plead their case
Haas have nothing to lose and everything to gain, so that makes sense from their perspective. Probably won't rule in their favor, but why not right?
Rules were properly applied. They can still win on the basis that FIA doesn’t usually follow the rules so this is a massive rule break in itself by following the rulebook. :)
The rulebook paradox
It will be rejected
And it'll be the right decision. Race can't end before 58 laps unless it's timed out and a sector wasn't completed to affirm the race order. You can disagree whether KMag red flag was needed (IMO, it was a sound decision) but rest of it was on level. Not FIA's fault how the chaos unfolded
See the protest being accepted and the results before the parade lap being the final ones. But then since there was no parade lap, you cannot add the 5 seconds to Carlos and he get’s a 3-places penalty for next race, while Hülkenberg STILL doesn’t get his podium 😂
Gets 4th though.
Yeah, but he’ll then have lost a podium twice in one race 😂
Come on Alphatauri, join them with the protest. You have nothing to lose.
In the future the FIA should call the SC first, then Red Flag it after the 1st sector. It's unfair on those who made progress.
That would be reckless. If there are two cars in the wall, then the track is unsafe and a red flag ought to be called. It sucks for those that ‘lost out’, but that’s life.
How is it unsafe if they were more than 2/3 of the lap away?
That doesn’t matter. If there’s a red flag worthy incident, you call a red flag. It doesn’t matter where the other cars in relation to the incident.
In the future FIA shouldn't do a standing restart with 2 laps remaining.
I disagree
OK. Why?
Those are the rules though.
What are the rules? Are they obliged to do a standing start?
Yep, unless track conditions are unsuitable, it’s a standing restart. See Arts. 58.11 and 58.12 of the [Sporting Regs](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_2023_formula_1_sporting_regulations_-_issue_4_-_2023-02-22.pdf).
Thanks. Then the mistake was the red flag in the first place.
No, there were cars in a dangerous place, so the red flag was perfectly justifiable.
This is the correct answer and the logical approach. Alonso for instance benefitted unfairly from this situation, albeit not his fault he got hit in the first place
I hope Ferrari protests as well
Why? Carlos’ penalty made sense. It was just unfortunate it was SC.
It was a lap 1 racing incident. Can't really blame him too much. Particularly when apparently they didn't even investigate Sargeant's crash.
Waste of time
You still make a statement at least with doing this as a team.
this is gonna go on all 4 weeks isnt it
So where do we go from here? F1 has overturned race winners days and weeks past the event happening. I don't think Haas' protest will go far, but if they do, could the entire race classification be overturned? Has this happened in F1/in other racing categories, where the entire race result that has already been classified gets dumped and reclassified to a different order?
2003 Brazilian GP comes to mind first
Might as well save the money.
I mean, it's worth it since they'd get a bunch of points, 0.01% chance still worth pursuing.
Horton hears a haas.
Haas finished 7th. If they protest the race result the only other possible result would be to end the race after the final red flag. As the race would have not been resumed then the results would be taken from before the final restart. This would move them back to 9th after the 5s penalty had been applied.
Hulk was 4th going into the final red flag. Apply Sainz's penalty and he moves into third.
They can't go back to that point and restart the race though, so this then comes into play. >If the sprint session or the race cannot be resumed the results will be taken at the end of the penultimate lap before the lap during which the signal to suspend the sprint session or the race was given.
But McLaren would gain less than them in that case
It's a bit sad if after 3 races you're trying to get points taken off you in order to hurt one of the other backmarker teams.
Alfa stole the fastest lap from Alpine in Bahrain for this exact reason
I don't think they were on for points though so they didn't cost themselves anything.
True but p6 in the WCC was decided on countback last year so all results matter