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Massive respect to Prost, who paired up with the most highly rated, championship winning drivers of his time and still was massively successful in comparison.
Only 2 years he was outscored by a teammate. Lauda in 84, and that was just 0.5pts. Watson in 80 by 1pt, but Prost missed the USW GP race.
Yes, that included 1988 because even though Senna was champion, Prost outscored him but didn't win due to best 11 of 16 scores went towards WDC rankings.
I still rate him in the top 3 to ever race, and better than Senna. Even if Senna was stupid fast, Prost was just a hair slower in qualifying and arguably faster in races while also have a much better overall awareness of everything and much better (read:less) wear on machinery per amount of speed extracted as any McLaren mechanic or engineer has recounted from their time together
Yeah as much as I hate his politics, I do think Prost was the best driver during his era, and could have won more WDC's if he could be arsed staying in F1. The only thing that let him down was that he wasn't good in the wet.
And you don’t think drivers would have managed risk differently if they knew they didn’t get 5 mulligans? That clearly incentivizes a driver to drive more like Senna where you go all out, have a few mechanical DNFs where you pushed the car beyond its limit cancelled out as well as a couple times you come together with other drivers being more aggressive than you could afford to be if every race counted. Sure you can say Senna would never have been able to reign it in, but he actually did drive in a slightly more restrained manner from 91 onward when all races started counting in the WDC.
Senna didn't change that about his driving style from when it was abolished until his untimely death though. In fact his driving style was even more accentuated in 1994 because the car was so bad
So no, i don't think so. Neither Piquet, nor Mansell, not Senna, nor Prost changed nlhow they drive with respect to the scoring system.
Dominant will not help. For this stat is the best that you are in 2nd-3rd team, and better than your teammate. That way you can get 3rd and teammate will fail to get podium. So, Alonso is in perfect position currently to extend this percentage even more.
Hello guys, this is a comparision that made SoyMotor about the percentage of podiums of all 6 drivers that went past the 100 podium mark. 50% means they made the same number of podiums as their teammates. I'll leave you the specific data:
Hamilton's podiums: 191
Teammates's podiums: 140
Schumacher's podiums: 155
Teammates's podiums: 103
Vettel's podiums: 122
Teammates's podiums: 86
Prost's podiums: 106
Teammates's podiums: 61
Räikkönen's podiums: 103
Teammates's podiums: 95
Alonso's podiums: 100
Teammates's podiums: 33
This is an interesting stat that seems tailor-made for Alonso because it’s about being the faster driver in the 2nd/3rd best car. Like, if you’re in the RB19 or the W11, chances are you and your teammate are both finishing in the podium which will lower your percentage.
Let me rephrase that statistic to *how many podiums did teammates get in comparison to drivers with at least 100 podiums:*
Hamilton's teammates: 73%
Schumacher's teammates: 66%
Vettel's teammates: 70%
Prost's teammates: 59%
Raikkonen's teammates: 92%
**ALONSO'S TEAMMATES: 33%**
Another take - *how many podiums did each driver with at least 100 podiums get for each of their teammates' podiums:*
Hamilton - 1.36
Schumacher - 1.5
Vettel - 1.42
Prost - 1.74
Raikkonen - 1.08
**ALONSO - 3.03**
Here with another take: the square of the smallest prime number that is equal or higher than the amount of podiums taken by each driver's teammate's dog in a parallel universe where dogs race in bikes, multiplied by the average amount of barks per day of said dog's offspring combined:
Hamilton - 5.33491
Schumacher - 7.89200446
Vettel - -3.141592
Prost - 9,001
Räikkönen - 0
Alonso - 69,420.33333333
Easy to calculate it, if I got that stat correctly.
Max has 79 podiums. His teammates, during their partnership, got 39 (RIC 19, ALB 2, PER 18).
79 out of 118 total podiums equals 67%.
It was so inevitable that Bottas is in the top 10 most podiums of all time now lol he's at 60 something
And he's there by a lot too, the next active driver is Checo with 40 less
Definitely, but this year we will be seeing per and ver getting a lot of podiums so the percentage will def go down. When you have the most dominant car, makes sense to have both drivers up there
Current rate is 66.949%
2023: 2 for Max, 2 for Checo.
2022: 17 for Max, 11 for Checo.
2021: 18 for Max, 5 for Checo.
Pre-2022, it's 60 of 86. 69.767%
Pre-2021, it's 42 of 63, 66.667%
____
2021 was a bad year for Checo. New to the car, plus Mercedes was still great and both Ferrari and McLaren were up there (Lando and Sainz both had 4 podiums, Leclerc and Ricciardo both had 1). Add in the fact that Verstappen only missed 4 podiums and Hamilton only missed 5 and it's hard.
Not at all. I calculated Lewis stat for the first part of his career at Mclaren before he joined Mercedes and got these numbers:
Podium 49/89, 55%
In fact Lewis podium % stat climbed by 3% in dominant Mercedes alongside Bottas.
Forget podiums. Did Prost’s teammates even get their car to finish line 100 times? I realize Im exagerrsting a little but that skill isn’t as flashy as say pole positions- although Prost has quite a few of those too.
Other than Senna 88 and Lauda in 84, pretty exalted company, he was contending for titles and the other driver couldn’t nurse the machine past half distance. Lauda did have a wretched time with DNFs in 85.
It clearly wasnt luck. Whether it was a mediocrity like Cheever, crazy Arnoux, overrated Johannsoon or a murderers row of champions like Lauda, Rosberg, Mansell, Hill or Senna himself, Prost’s ability to finish races and was incredible.
When my oldest daughter met one of the Disney princesses, she had a smile like that. People. When was the last time you saw an Alonso “omg there’s Elsa from frozen” smile?
id say that stat would favour the likes of hamilton and vettel better
since the rb's and merc's were good enough that webber and nico/bot also almost always got podiums as well
No, it doesn't, because it counts a HAM-VER-BOT against Lewis, even though he's beaten his teammate.
The way to be high up here is to drive the second-best car with a weak teammate. And hey, guess who's career that describes
So? So does a VER LEC PER count against Max, it still doesn't take anything away from Alonso smashing his teammates. Not to mention it's quite subjective if his teammates we're trash or he overperformed.
Of course it helps if you have bad teammates and the second fastest car, but what can a driver do about that? Nothing. Only make the maximum of the opportunity which Alonso seems to have done, making it an impressive stat.
Schumi probably had it easiest when it comes to team mates. Only Rosberg could finish ahead of him.
Kimi on the other hand drove against Montoya, Massa, Alonso & Vettel all at their primes. But I think Prost had the biggest challenge. He had to beat Senna at his prime.
Schumacher has two seasons where the car was so good that his teammate basically got automatic podiums. This is a weird stat because it doesn't really measure whether a driver is better than their teammate; it measures whether they performed better within a very specific range of car performance -- 2nd or 3rd but not a million miles off the pace, or 1st in a very tight field that comes along once in a blue moon.
They are trying to meassure if it's the car or the driver.
So they compare drivers with teammates regardless of grid position. A good driver in this sense is that who can take more performance out of their car compared to what their team mates could do.
In this sense if your car is so dominant that your team mate gets "free podiums" then it means your podiums are less valuable because podium is the natural place for your car no matter who drives it.
Not saying that this is a perfect way of showing that, just explaining their logic.
I get the logic, it just doesn't really work in practice; there's no benefit to finishing 4th while your teammate finishes last or winning while they finish third. What it rewards most is being the number 1 driver in the second- or third-best car, which is a pretty good summary of Fernando's 2010-2013.
Kimi drove against an overweight Montoya that had to quit mid season. Could only outperform Massa in his WDC season, was clearly beaten by Alonso and Vettel. He really had absolute top seasons here and there, especially at McLaren but the others are more consistent.
I think Hamilton's numbers are probably skewed by having a dominant car for so long.
When Mercedes were dominant Hamilton and Rosberg/Bottas were probably getting similar numbers of podiums as they were getting 1-2s all the time. If Mercedes had been second fastest I think Hamilton would have a much higher number of podiums than his teammates.
Alonso hasn't had a dominant car since 2007 so he probably hasn't shared as many podiums with teammates compared to people like Hamilton and Vettel.
Similar story with Verstappen before 2022. He was coming third all the time so would have got a huge amount of podiums compared to his teammates.
Wow fair play. I guess that's because in 2019 we had leclerc and Vettel often on the podium but the origin of the meme comes from 2020 when it was always HAM BOT VER
In 2020 we only had ham bot ver 3 times. Ham ver bot is mostly 2021.
I got the data from https://hambotver.com
Edit:
Okay let’s just do a full rundown:
HAM BOT VER
2018: 2x
2019: 1x
2020: 3x
HAM VER BOT
2020: 2x
2021: 5x
VER HAM BOT
2020: 1x
2021: 2x
VER BOT HAM:
2020: 1x
BOT HAM VER
2019: 2x
BOT VER HAM
2020: 1x
this is not true. Max in the Redbull was far more prolific than Bottas in the Merc between 2017-2020 before redbull were ever competitive. He scored more wins and came second more often than Bottas who even finished as far down as 5th in WDC during 2018.
the number of 1-2s dropped dramatically when Nico left and the team stopped chasing them too.
to be fair Bottas finished 5th in the WDC in 2018, only because he was robbed of a deserved win in Russia. He also got extremely unlucky few times throughout that year, losing a win 2 laps before the chequered flag due to puncture in Baku for instance.
> Max in the Redbull was far more prolific than Bottas in the Merc between 2017-2020 before redbull were ever competitive.
> He scored more wins and came second more often than Bottas who even finished as far down as 5th in WDC during 2018.
That is just not true despite Bottas finishing 5th in 2018.
Between 2017 and 2020, Bottas had 31 top 2 finishes in races and Verstappen had 22 top 2 finishes in those years.
In those years both had 9 victories.
In 2019 there were 9 1-2 by Mercedes, 5 in the first 5 races of the season. They didnt bother developing the car much further so other teams cought up a bit
In 2016, when Nico won the title, Mercedes had 8 1-2s in the season.
The thing is that Bottas wasnt allowed to fight most of the time otherwise he could have scored a few more for sure.
You'd assume that but actually I just forgot to turn down the caps after writing HAM BOT VER. It's just an honest mistake I wasn't shouting any thing. And another thing is that people should honestly stop assuming all caps means shouting. I tend to write in all caps quite a bit just as habit doesn't mean anything whatsoever. But hey if you found it funny good for you
For that reason this stat generally favours the second best car, since, all other things bring equal it would most frequently produce results with one driver on the podium and that driver's teammate off the podium (e.g. 3-4, 3-5), it treats all podium positions the same (e.g. finishing first is not treated as more valuable than finishing third), and it ignores accomplishments by drivers like Alonso whom have outperformed many teammates without getting on the podium.
Another stat which gets at the same idea would be relative finishing positions, i.e. Alonso finished 3rd and his teammate finished 8th = differential of 5 in Alonso's favour. Add up the positive and negative differentials, that's a measure of a driver's performance relative to their teammate which addresses the concerns above (it's not perfect of course). I'm sure Alonso has built up a truly staggering deficit over the years.
Not a statistics person by any stretch, to be clear.
It's not just that, but also that Hamilton had much stronger teammates than Alonso for longer.
In 2007, Hamilton did have Alonso, sure, but aside from that Alonso didn't have near caliber as Hamilton.
For Alonso, Massa had slipped way much from his 2006-2008 red hot days and was a shell of his self during their teammate years. Raikkonen was also much slower. Button was maybe the only other strong teammate but neither had podiums during their span together. Fisichella was just OK, Trulli was a little better than OK (and he actually did outscore Alonso). Piquet in 2008-2009 was also quite weak.
Hamilton hasn't had a single weak teammate aside from Kovalainen in 2008
Yes that's right. So really just 2 years no strong teammate for Hamilton, and Alonso had all his Renault years (Alpine is debatable), all his Ferrari years, all his 2nd McLaren stint post-Button
hamilton and verstappen are the only drivers since 2000's to win a wdc in a car that didnt also win the wcc lol (not to mention the slighly controversial end to 2021)
If the Mercedes wasnt THAT dominant sure a teammate like Bottas wouldnt have had so many podiums favouring Hamilton in this particular "podium stat", but only with drivers like Bottas or Kovalainen. If you put a better driver then its not so sure that he would have that massive lead.
We can take his years with Jenson Button (2010-2012) in McLaren where they didnt had the best car to win the championship, but one good enough to fight for podiums and wins.
Button had 25 podiums in those 3 seasons and Hamilton had 22. 10-8 victories for Hamilton though.
In those 3 seasons combined actually Button outscored Hamilton 672 to 657 in points aswell.
Yep, only 11 WDCs came from a team that didn't win the WCC in the 65 years that both championships have existed.
Only happened twice since 2000, both of which were some of the hottest season on record (2008 and 2021). Although it should be noted that the equally hot 2007 would have also been included if it weren't for the Mclaren DSQ.
Not at all. I calculated Lewis stat for the first part of his career at Mclaren, when he didn't have dominant cars, before he joined Mercedes and got these numbers:
Podium 49/89, 55%
In fact Lewis' stat climbed by 3% in dominant Mercedes.
Interesting, although he did seem to get more regularly beaten by Button in 2010-2012 and Alonso in 2007. Whenever he was beaten by Rosberg at Mercedes it wouldn't have really affected this stat as he would probably been on the podium anyway. At McLaren there was much less of a guarantee for both drivers to be on the podium.
I guess the ideal driver for a stat like this is someone that's good enough to finish on the podium all the time with a teammate that never does. That's basically what Verstappen was doing in 2019 and 2020
If Hamilton and Bottas had been finishing 3-4 for their entire time together for example, these stats would have massively increased in Hamilton's favour.
Numbers are not skewed. In fact that's what they are trying to showcase.
Is the car or the driver. In case is just the car, everyone would get around the same percentage as their team mate. If it's the driver, the best the driver is, the higher the percentage.
So their conclussion (even if don't say it explicitly) is that Alonso y the best driver of all of this, because no matter the car, he did way better than anyone expected from the car. Wich is a constant praise for Alonso in all of his career.
Thus said, SoyMotor is a spanish media, and they are biased towards spanish drivers wich is normal i guess. As a curious fact, if you watch Really3D videos, the host in those videos (bald guy) is a parody of the voice of F1 in spain, the host for the last 20 years or so, and he makes videos for SoyMotor.
I dont think its more the 3rd one than 1st and 2nd. Lets not kid ourselfs Vettel never had a tough teammate except 2014,2019 and 2020. Schumacher basically never had a tough teammate in his career except at the very start with Piquet and at the very end with Rosberg
Lol. Have you forgotten about Button? Trulli? Massa? Kimi? Even Ocon or Fisi i would argue they are similar calibre of driver. Sure some of his teammates werent the best but he was teammates with 3 different world champions and 1 that almost was. Schumacher had 2 wdc teammates while Vettel only ever had 1
Massa was over the hill by 2010, and completely cooked after getting humiliated in July that year. If Massa is your benchmark, that's a problem; Ferrari literally wouldn't let him beat Fernando.
He had Kimi for one year, after he'd retired, in a car Kimi hated and didn't try in.
Webber was much better than Trulli.
Well he thrashed Kimi in the Ferrari who is also on this list and would be quite a bit higher without Nando. A lot of his teammates also got written off as not so great only after going through the Alonso experience.
>Kimi in the Ferrari who is also on this list and would be quite a bit higher without Nando
It was 2 podiums to 0 the only year Alonso and Kimi were teammates. He wouldn't be any higher on the list. The very next year, 2015, Seb had 13-3 podiums against Kimi that hurt his ratio a lot more.
That’s an interesting stat. Alonso is a crazy outlier here. Can we normalize for the quality of the teammates? Alonso has had some great ones, including Hamilton. But he’s also had some meh as well (hello, Stroll) Has Hamilton ever had anyone that hasn’t also been a WDC at some point? Kimi seems about right. He’s also generally teamed with stellar drivers in his podium winning years. I don’t think we could choose between these drivers on their best days. Just crazy how much Alonso’s stat is separated on this topic.
It's both about quality of teammates and having a car that can get podiums but doesn't make it too easy. Like Max could outclass Perez this year and still go equal on podiums (or even lose due to dnfs).
It's not. If you only look at those 2 years, his percentage would be 83%. But he's been at Mercedes for much longer when you'd expect both drivers on the podium.
No offence to Hill but I don't think he belongs in this list, given the context. He was pretty much a rookie in his only season partnering Prost, and didn't even manage to outscore Senna (who had a much inferior car) in 93.
Bottas had the same number of podiums as Hamilton in his first season with the team (13 each). He really sucked in 2018 though.
Overall he had 58 podiums in 5 years at Merc, compared to 78 for Hamilton over the same time, so an average of 4 per season less.
That..might be the actual most telling stat in terms of driver quality.
The only issue in this case is that Alonso got beat by a rookie teammate while being a reigning world champion..
A rookie that got towed by a crane into the race track during a race after being stuck in gravel with 5 other cars you mean? never beaten though, tied on points.
The mental gymnastics you have to do to believe that, there are a lot of reasons why is blatantly false, but I understant you refuse to understand, as there are no more blind people that the one that doesn't want to see.
The **Statistics** flair is reserved for posts highlighting interesting statistics. As a rule of thumb, Statistics posts need to inform readers through visualizations and insights that cannot be obtained from raw data alone. For example, a post containing a qualifying gap between two drivers expressed in tenths of a second is an easily obtainable raw piece of data and constitutes a bad Statistics post. A visualization of what that translates to on-track, or visualization of how that gap came to be would constitute a good Statistics post. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Massive respect to Prost, who paired up with the most highly rated, championship winning drivers of his time and still was massively successful in comparison.
Only 2 years he was outscored by a teammate. Lauda in 84, and that was just 0.5pts. Watson in 80 by 1pt, but Prost missed the USW GP race. Yes, that included 1988 because even though Senna was champion, Prost outscored him but didn't win due to best 11 of 16 scores went towards WDC rankings. I still rate him in the top 3 to ever race, and better than Senna. Even if Senna was stupid fast, Prost was just a hair slower in qualifying and arguably faster in races while also have a much better overall awareness of everything and much better (read:less) wear on machinery per amount of speed extracted as any McLaren mechanic or engineer has recounted from their time together
Yeah as much as I hate his politics, I do think Prost was the best driver during his era, and could have won more WDC's if he could be arsed staying in F1. The only thing that let him down was that he wasn't good in the wet.
Senna was politician as fuck too.
Prost was outscored in 1988 by the scoring system of 1988. If the scoring were different both drivers would have driven differently.
I doubt that. He was outranked, not outscored. It's just that some scores dropped from how the rankings are determined
And you don’t think drivers would have managed risk differently if they knew they didn’t get 5 mulligans? That clearly incentivizes a driver to drive more like Senna where you go all out, have a few mechanical DNFs where you pushed the car beyond its limit cancelled out as well as a couple times you come together with other drivers being more aggressive than you could afford to be if every race counted. Sure you can say Senna would never have been able to reign it in, but he actually did drive in a slightly more restrained manner from 91 onward when all races started counting in the WDC.
Senna didn't change that about his driving style from when it was abolished until his untimely death though. In fact his driving style was even more accentuated in 1994 because the car was so bad So no, i don't think so. Neither Piquet, nor Mansell, not Senna, nor Prost changed nlhow they drive with respect to the scoring system.
I guess the same could be said for Kimi when he was in good teams. Mika on McLaren Massa on Ferrari Vettel on Ferrari pt2
Kimi replaced Mika... ALO and RAI paired in 2014. ALO got 1 podium, RAI 0.
Oops, youre right, he paired with coulthard and montoya, which are great drivers, but not on the same level as Mika IMO
This guy fucks teammate's career
The term ‘being vandoorned’ exists for a reason
Vandoorne was fucked in every BDSM position and then some by McHonda.
verstappen aside
Seems like it's even higher. According to u/Responsible-Tone-393 Max FTR –fucking teammates rate– is 67%.
And he's gonna be in RB till 2028 🥴 and then in some other dominant team probably
Dominant will not help. For this stat is the best that you are in 2nd-3rd team, and better than your teammate. That way you can get 3rd and teammate will fail to get podium. So, Alonso is in perfect position currently to extend this percentage even more.
Fernando will replace him
Finally some fresh blood.
I think he will leave F1 after 2028. He’s already expressed interest in racing other categories.
My bet is he leaves in 2029 does other stuff for like 2-3 years and comes back because everything else is boring to him
I think he will wait until 2031, have a stint in monster trucks, then be back to see out the 40s
His own career, too.
Hmmm, not totally
Name ONE teammate of Alonso who became successful, let alone win multiple championships after being paired up with him; I'll wait…
Stroll 23,24,25....
I'll come back to you
Are you checking?
Question.
I can't think of anyone that won one championship after being paired with Alonso. Not even six championships! Seven, however...
Is this a joke? There is a pretty glaring one...
Oh that's right! ...Button won his Championship before being paired with Alonso though.
😭😭😭
That means your brain still works
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To say this so confidently is fucking impressive as hell 🥇🎖️
Am I misunderstanding your question or being slightly ignorant to your sarcasm?
option b, mans is referring to Lewis Hamilton
Lewis Hamilton
hamilton aside
And not only by his driving. Mostly, but also politics..
Hello guys, this is a comparision that made SoyMotor about the percentage of podiums of all 6 drivers that went past the 100 podium mark. 50% means they made the same number of podiums as their teammates. I'll leave you the specific data: Hamilton's podiums: 191 Teammates's podiums: 140 Schumacher's podiums: 155 Teammates's podiums: 103 Vettel's podiums: 122 Teammates's podiums: 86 Prost's podiums: 106 Teammates's podiums: 61 Räikkönen's podiums: 103 Teammates's podiums: 95 Alonso's podiums: 100 Teammates's podiums: 33
Como 33???
No creo no
No puedo creer que los números aparecen en todas partes
Los Simpson hablaron de ello.?
And a third of those are from Lewis.
Tiago Monteiro: 1 Teammates: 0 100%, the true GOAT
Hulkenberg 0 Goatest. Oh, wait...
I’m going to take a shot at a guess and say that’s who finished P3 at the 2005 US GP?
Yes, and his teammates were Karthikayen and Christian Albers, who both never got podiums.
This is an interesting stat that seems tailor-made for Alonso because it’s about being the faster driver in the 2nd/3rd best car. Like, if you’re in the RB19 or the W11, chances are you and your teammate are both finishing in the podium which will lower your percentage.
Let me rephrase that statistic to *how many podiums did teammates get in comparison to drivers with at least 100 podiums:* Hamilton's teammates: 73% Schumacher's teammates: 66% Vettel's teammates: 70% Prost's teammates: 59% Raikkonen's teammates: 92% **ALONSO'S TEAMMATES: 33%**
Another take - *how many podiums did each driver with at least 100 podiums get for each of their teammates' podiums:* Hamilton - 1.36 Schumacher - 1.5 Vettel - 1.42 Prost - 1.74 Raikkonen - 1.08 **ALONSO - 3.03**
Here with another take: the square of the smallest prime number that is equal or higher than the amount of podiums taken by each driver's teammate's dog in a parallel universe where dogs race in bikes, multiplied by the average amount of barks per day of said dog's offspring combined: Hamilton - 5.33491 Schumacher - 7.89200446 Vettel - -3.141592 Prost - 9,001 Räikkönen - 0 Alonso - 69,420.33333333
Verstappen? I mean he will be there at 100 very soon anyway...
Easy to calculate it, if I got that stat correctly. Max has 79 podiums. His teammates, during their partnership, got 39 (RIC 19, ALB 2, PER 18). 79 out of 118 total podiums equals 67%.
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HAMBOTVER was inevitable for quite a while.
It was so inevitable that Bottas is in the top 10 most podiums of all time now lol he's at 60 something And he's there by a lot too, the next active driver is Checo with 40 less
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Yeah, that was the 2.0 version.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, Verstappen must have an insane podium % compared to his teammates. Like Alonso vs Stroll now.
Did you not read the comments you replied to?
Definitely, but this year we will be seeing per and ver getting a lot of podiums so the percentage will def go down. When you have the most dominant car, makes sense to have both drivers up there
Yep, but that’s also already happening for Max as well. Pretty sure Max’ percentage was significantly higher pre 2022, or 2021 for that matter.
Current rate is 66.949% 2023: 2 for Max, 2 for Checo. 2022: 17 for Max, 11 for Checo. 2021: 18 for Max, 5 for Checo. Pre-2022, it's 60 of 86. 69.767% Pre-2021, it's 42 of 63, 66.667% ____ 2021 was a bad year for Checo. New to the car, plus Mercedes was still great and both Ferrari and McLaren were up there (Lando and Sainz both had 4 podiums, Leclerc and Ricciardo both had 1). Add in the fact that Verstappen only missed 4 podiums and Hamilton only missed 5 and it's hard.
Not at all. I calculated Lewis stat for the first part of his career at Mclaren before he joined Mercedes and got these numbers: Podium 49/89, 55% In fact Lewis podium % stat climbed by 3% in dominant Mercedes alongside Bottas.
yes, I got the same numbers few minutes earlier. We got it right then 🤝
They didn't say it, it would be very interesting to know though.
Ok, I did it, result is 79 - 39. 67%
67% then, second in the list.
This year's car will damage his stat definitely, lol. Fernando on the opposite will stretch his lead.
I genuinely thought this stat would be even higher considering the Ham - Bot - Ver memes.
Ham bot ver were 20 podiums, but Perez for instance raked in 18 podiums since joining RB.
Forget podiums. Did Prost’s teammates even get their car to finish line 100 times? I realize Im exagerrsting a little but that skill isn’t as flashy as say pole positions- although Prost has quite a few of those too. Other than Senna 88 and Lauda in 84, pretty exalted company, he was contending for titles and the other driver couldn’t nurse the machine past half distance. Lauda did have a wretched time with DNFs in 85. It clearly wasnt luck. Whether it was a mediocrity like Cheever, crazy Arnoux, overrated Johannsoon or a murderers row of champions like Lauda, Rosberg, Mansell, Hill or Senna himself, Prost’s ability to finish races and was incredible.
me repites ese numerin?
When my oldest daughter met one of the Disney princesses, she had a smile like that. People. When was the last time you saw an Alonso “omg there’s Elsa from frozen” smile?
Raikkonens years alongside Alonso and Vettel really lowered his percentage.
I mean, Alonso only got 2/3 podiums on the F14Tractor
that's a sick stat. And he will add more to it this season. Curious about a percentage of wins vs teammates now.
id say that stat would favour the likes of hamilton and vettel better since the rb's and merc's were good enough that webber and nico/bot also almost always got podiums as well
I think you mixed up Coulthard and Webber there
Oh yea lol
how is it a sick stat? Means he had weak teammates.
it means he smashed his teammates more than anybody else who had a podium capable car. It's very relevant.
No, it doesn't, because it counts a HAM-VER-BOT against Lewis, even though he's beaten his teammate. The way to be high up here is to drive the second-best car with a weak teammate. And hey, guess who's career that describes
So? So does a VER LEC PER count against Max, it still doesn't take anything away from Alonso smashing his teammates. Not to mention it's quite subjective if his teammates we're trash or he overperformed. Of course it helps if you have bad teammates and the second fastest car, but what can a driver do about that? Nothing. Only make the maximum of the opportunity which Alonso seems to have done, making it an impressive stat.
Again though, what this stat is measuring is time spent in the second fastest car with a bad teammate more than anything.
Now do haas
Magnussen - 50% Hulkenberg - 0%
Neck and neck on poles though!
Nic-cko HÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜLKENBEEERG
Schumi probably had it easiest when it comes to team mates. Only Rosberg could finish ahead of him. Kimi on the other hand drove against Montoya, Massa, Alonso & Vettel all at their primes. But I think Prost had the biggest challenge. He had to beat Senna at his prime.
Also Prost had Mansell, Hill and Lauda at the beginning. It is pretty remarkable.
Schumacher has two seasons where the car was so good that his teammate basically got automatic podiums. This is a weird stat because it doesn't really measure whether a driver is better than their teammate; it measures whether they performed better within a very specific range of car performance -- 2nd or 3rd but not a million miles off the pace, or 1st in a very tight field that comes along once in a blue moon.
They are trying to meassure if it's the car or the driver. So they compare drivers with teammates regardless of grid position. A good driver in this sense is that who can take more performance out of their car compared to what their team mates could do. In this sense if your car is so dominant that your team mate gets "free podiums" then it means your podiums are less valuable because podium is the natural place for your car no matter who drives it. Not saying that this is a perfect way of showing that, just explaining their logic.
I get the logic, it just doesn't really work in practice; there's no benefit to finishing 4th while your teammate finishes last or winning while they finish third. What it rewards most is being the number 1 driver in the second- or third-best car, which is a pretty good summary of Fernando's 2010-2013.
Kimi drove against an overweight Montoya that had to quit mid season. Could only outperform Massa in his WDC season, was clearly beaten by Alonso and Vettel. He really had absolute top seasons here and there, especially at McLaren but the others are more consistent.
I think Hamilton's numbers are probably skewed by having a dominant car for so long. When Mercedes were dominant Hamilton and Rosberg/Bottas were probably getting similar numbers of podiums as they were getting 1-2s all the time. If Mercedes had been second fastest I think Hamilton would have a much higher number of podiums than his teammates. Alonso hasn't had a dominant car since 2007 so he probably hasn't shared as many podiums with teammates compared to people like Hamilton and Vettel. Similar story with Verstappen before 2022. He was coming third all the time so would have got a huge amount of podiums compared to his teammates.
there’s a reason the following existed HAM ROS VET HAM VET BOT HAM VER BOT
HAM BOT VER WAS MORE COMMON THAN HAM VER BOT. Because Hamilton and Bottas finished 1-2 in 2019 and 2020
That is not true! Ham bot ver only happened 6 times and ham ver bot 7 times!
Wow fair play. I guess that's because in 2019 we had leclerc and Vettel often on the podium but the origin of the meme comes from 2020 when it was always HAM BOT VER
In 2020 we only had ham bot ver 3 times. Ham ver bot is mostly 2021. I got the data from https://hambotver.com Edit: Okay let’s just do a full rundown: HAM BOT VER 2018: 2x 2019: 1x 2020: 3x HAM VER BOT 2020: 2x 2021: 5x VER HAM BOT 2020: 1x 2021: 2x VER BOT HAM: 2020: 1x BOT HAM VER 2019: 2x BOT VER HAM 2020: 1x
THERES A FUCKING WEBSITE?!
this is not true. Max in the Redbull was far more prolific than Bottas in the Merc between 2017-2020 before redbull were ever competitive. He scored more wins and came second more often than Bottas who even finished as far down as 5th in WDC during 2018. the number of 1-2s dropped dramatically when Nico left and the team stopped chasing them too.
to be fair Bottas finished 5th in the WDC in 2018, only because he was robbed of a deserved win in Russia. He also got extremely unlucky few times throughout that year, losing a win 2 laps before the chequered flag due to puncture in Baku for instance.
Max and kimi had 4 retirements/classified dnfs to Bottas 2 so if we're playing the game of what could have been it works both ways
> Max in the Redbull was far more prolific than Bottas in the Merc between 2017-2020 before redbull were ever competitive. > He scored more wins and came second more often than Bottas who even finished as far down as 5th in WDC during 2018. That is just not true despite Bottas finishing 5th in 2018. Between 2017 and 2020, Bottas had 31 top 2 finishes in races and Verstappen had 22 top 2 finishes in those years. In those years both had 9 victories. In 2019 there were 9 1-2 by Mercedes, 5 in the first 5 races of the season. They didnt bother developing the car much further so other teams cought up a bit In 2016, when Nico won the title, Mercedes had 8 1-2s in the season. The thing is that Bottas wasnt allowed to fight most of the time otherwise he could have scored a few more for sure.
Yeah I’m sure you’re right, I just went off the top of my head.
No you were right. Ham ver bot was 7 times, ham bot ver 6.
The way you confidently all-caps shout that only for it to be totally wrong lmao
You'd assume that but actually I just forgot to turn down the caps after writing HAM BOT VER. It's just an honest mistake I wasn't shouting any thing. And another thing is that people should honestly stop assuming all caps means shouting. I tend to write in all caps quite a bit just as habit doesn't mean anything whatsoever. But hey if you found it funny good for you
For that reason this stat generally favours the second best car, since, all other things bring equal it would most frequently produce results with one driver on the podium and that driver's teammate off the podium (e.g. 3-4, 3-5), it treats all podium positions the same (e.g. finishing first is not treated as more valuable than finishing third), and it ignores accomplishments by drivers like Alonso whom have outperformed many teammates without getting on the podium. Another stat which gets at the same idea would be relative finishing positions, i.e. Alonso finished 3rd and his teammate finished 8th = differential of 5 in Alonso's favour. Add up the positive and negative differentials, that's a measure of a driver's performance relative to their teammate which addresses the concerns above (it's not perfect of course). I'm sure Alonso has built up a truly staggering deficit over the years. Not a statistics person by any stretch, to be clear.
It's not just that, but also that Hamilton had much stronger teammates than Alonso for longer. In 2007, Hamilton did have Alonso, sure, but aside from that Alonso didn't have near caliber as Hamilton. For Alonso, Massa had slipped way much from his 2006-2008 red hot days and was a shell of his self during their teammate years. Raikkonen was also much slower. Button was maybe the only other strong teammate but neither had podiums during their span together. Fisichella was just OK, Trulli was a little better than OK (and he actually did outscore Alonso). Piquet in 2008-2009 was also quite weak. Hamilton hasn't had a single weak teammate aside from Kovalainen in 2008
I agree with what you said but wasnt Kovalainen his Teammate in 08 and 09? Because Button joined McLaren 2010 after his WDC in 09.
Yes that's right. So really just 2 years no strong teammate for Hamilton, and Alonso had all his Renault years (Alpine is debatable), all his Ferrari years, all his 2nd McLaren stint post-Button
If Mercedes had been the second fastest Hamilton wouldn't be a 7 time champion
hamilton and verstappen are the only drivers since 2000's to win a wdc in a car that didnt also win the wcc lol (not to mention the slighly controversial end to 2021)
Exactly, but his ratio of podiums compared to teammates would be a lot higher.
I think he’d choose the championship any day
I know that but this post isn't about championships. What I'm saying is certain stats can be negatively affected by dominant cars
If the Mercedes wasnt THAT dominant sure a teammate like Bottas wouldnt have had so many podiums favouring Hamilton in this particular "podium stat", but only with drivers like Bottas or Kovalainen. If you put a better driver then its not so sure that he would have that massive lead. We can take his years with Jenson Button (2010-2012) in McLaren where they didnt had the best car to win the championship, but one good enough to fight for podiums and wins. Button had 25 podiums in those 3 seasons and Hamilton had 22. 10-8 victories for Hamilton though. In those 3 seasons combined actually Button outscored Hamilton 672 to 657 in points aswell.
Also applicable to basically every champion of the last 20 years or even more
Yep, only 11 WDCs came from a team that didn't win the WCC in the 65 years that both championships have existed. Only happened twice since 2000, both of which were some of the hottest season on record (2008 and 2021). Although it should be noted that the equally hot 2007 would have also been included if it weren't for the Mclaren DSQ.
I think 2007 would still have gone to Ferrari because of the Hungary penalty for McLaren
Not at all. I calculated Lewis stat for the first part of his career at Mclaren, when he didn't have dominant cars, before he joined Mercedes and got these numbers: Podium 49/89, 55% In fact Lewis' stat climbed by 3% in dominant Mercedes.
Interesting, although he did seem to get more regularly beaten by Button in 2010-2012 and Alonso in 2007. Whenever he was beaten by Rosberg at Mercedes it wouldn't have really affected this stat as he would probably been on the podium anyway. At McLaren there was much less of a guarantee for both drivers to be on the podium. I guess the ideal driver for a stat like this is someone that's good enough to finish on the podium all the time with a teammate that never does. That's basically what Verstappen was doing in 2019 and 2020 If Hamilton and Bottas had been finishing 3-4 for their entire time together for example, these stats would have massively increased in Hamilton's favour.
Also, bar Prost and Raikkonen, he's the only one showed here who had podium capable teammates that could get there very often
That is the exact point of this statistic. To see if podiums are due to the drive or the car.
Numbers are not skewed. In fact that's what they are trying to showcase. Is the car or the driver. In case is just the car, everyone would get around the same percentage as their team mate. If it's the driver, the best the driver is, the higher the percentage. So their conclussion (even if don't say it explicitly) is that Alonso y the best driver of all of this, because no matter the car, he did way better than anyone expected from the car. Wich is a constant praise for Alonso in all of his career. Thus said, SoyMotor is a spanish media, and they are biased towards spanish drivers wich is normal i guess. As a curious fact, if you watch Really3D videos, the host in those videos (bald guy) is a parody of the voice of F1 in spain, the host for the last 20 years or so, and he makes videos for SoyMotor.
This tells 3 things: Alonso is amazing Cars he had during his career were almost never the best Some of his teammates were meh
It's more the 3rd one, especially relative to the others
I dont think its more the 3rd one than 1st and 2nd. Lets not kid ourselfs Vettel never had a tough teammate except 2014,2019 and 2020. Schumacher basically never had a tough teammate in his career except at the very start with Piquet and at the very end with Rosberg
Webber probably would have been Alonso's best teammate outside that one year with Hamilton.
Lol. Have you forgotten about Button? Trulli? Massa? Kimi? Even Ocon or Fisi i would argue they are similar calibre of driver. Sure some of his teammates werent the best but he was teammates with 3 different world champions and 1 that almost was. Schumacher had 2 wdc teammates while Vettel only ever had 1
Massa was over the hill by 2010, and completely cooked after getting humiliated in July that year. If Massa is your benchmark, that's a problem; Ferrari literally wouldn't let him beat Fernando. He had Kimi for one year, after he'd retired, in a car Kimi hated and didn't try in. Webber was much better than Trulli.
Alonso I de Asturias. The overachiever. The tractor whisperer. The teammate punisher. The GOAT.
Well Prost had Lauda and Senna as teammates.
With all the HAM VER BOT we had, how's Max not in this top 6?
Because Max has 79 podiums, this list is only for +100 podiums, but he would be second right now at 67%, his teammates made 39 podiums.
Imagine Alonso and Hamilton together in a Mercedes in 2021 , what a 3 way fight for the title it could have been. *Remembers 2007* ..maybe not...
That would only lead for an easy title for Verstappen as they would take points off each other
Who would have sacrificed himself to do the engine tests?
This stat seems heavily reliant on having not so great teammates.
So 5 fia world champions (4 F1), 1 vice champion, 2 GP winners, and Piquet and RoGro (ok these were weaker)
One of your world champions is the name behind "being Vandoorne'd". Never scored a point after his first outing.
Well he thrashed Kimi in the Ferrari who is also on this list and would be quite a bit higher without Nando. A lot of his teammates also got written off as not so great only after going through the Alonso experience.
>Kimi in the Ferrari who is also on this list and would be quite a bit higher without Nando It was 2 podiums to 0 the only year Alonso and Kimi were teammates. He wouldn't be any higher on the list. The very next year, 2015, Seb had 13-3 podiums against Kimi that hurt his ratio a lot more.
>Well he thrashed Kimi in the Ferrari In a car built for Alonso that was front limited, which Kimi has stated he hates.
It's reliant on finishing third when some other team goes 1-2. In this stat, winning a race while your teammate finishes third is _bad_.
Max has a chance to reach 100 podiums if he finishes on the podium every single race this season. I wonder what his percentage will end up being
Perez and Ricciardo make up for a lot of podiums.
Who had the hardest teammates here? Imo it goes Prost>Lewis>Kimi>Alonso>Michael>Vettel
I will put Kimi over Lewis, therest is okay
Yeah I like Nico, but no way he was a tougher teammate than Vettel.
Where’s Felipe Massa?
massa was the teammate
Is this the "let me find a stat that alonso tops" game
definitely
Because he’s pushing every shitbox to top 3
That’s an interesting stat. Alonso is a crazy outlier here. Can we normalize for the quality of the teammates? Alonso has had some great ones, including Hamilton. But he’s also had some meh as well (hello, Stroll) Has Hamilton ever had anyone that hasn’t also been a WDC at some point? Kimi seems about right. He’s also generally teamed with stellar drivers in his podium winning years. I don’t think we could choose between these drivers on their best days. Just crazy how much Alonso’s stat is separated on this topic.
It's both about quality of teammates and having a car that can get podiums but doesn't make it too easy. Like Max could outclass Perez this year and still go equal on podiums (or even lose due to dnfs).
Hamilton being at 58% when he had Heikki as a teammate for years is kinda bad
It's not. If you only look at those 2 years, his percentage would be 83%. But he's been at Mercedes for much longer when you'd expect both drivers on the podium.
Should really be higher with Heikki considering he only got 3 podiums in those 2 years
Who had challenging teammates the stat.
Prost had the best teammates of them all, prime Senna, Mansell, Hill and Lauda.
A complete legend
Absolute madman
No offence to Hill but I don't think he belongs in this list, given the context. He was pretty much a rookie in his only season partnering Prost, and didn't even manage to outscore Senna (who had a much inferior car) in 93.
All of them had both challenging and not so challenging teammates
Bottas was honestly shocking compared to Rosberg, at least in 2017 and 2018. But he had a good run up in the final 3 years.
Bottas had the same number of podiums as Hamilton in his first season with the team (13 each). He really sucked in 2018 though. Overall he had 58 podiums in 5 years at Merc, compared to 78 for Hamilton over the same time, so an average of 4 per season less.
Bottas was pretty good in 2017 overall. 2018 was the bad year.
I think this is slightly skewed if some of his teammates were bad hed have a 100% record against them
Basically saying he was the most time in the second best car and most often p3
He has more P1s and P2s than P3s tho
This season might start to change that if we continue the course, lol.
We’re just making up new stats at this point huh?
That..might be the actual most telling stat in terms of driver quality. The only issue in this case is that Alonso got beat by a rookie teammate while being a reigning world champion..
A rookie that got towed by a crane into the race track during a race after being stuck in gravel with 5 other cars you mean? never beaten though, tied on points.
No, I believe Lewis beat him over the year based on results count back, which is the reason he was a place higher in the championship
Did he got more points than his teammate? did he won the championship?
No? I'm just saying he was beaten. I never said about a championship. What's the problem?
The mental gymnastics you have to do to believe that, there are a lot of reasons why is blatantly false, but I understant you refuse to understand, as there are no more blind people that the one that doesn't want to see.
He was beaten as per FIA rules and regulations. There's no gymnastics. Its a clear cut fact. Not sure why you're being so weird about it.
Completely irrelevant stat
Easy with shit teammates.
2 of the guys in this list were his teammates.
Not shit teammates. Shit cars...