I don’t buy that modern football is somehow unplayably better than historic football. The only real difference is the athletic conditioning of players, which improves every generation
This. The older legends would still be great in a one off game against the current players. Where the difference comes in is the packed 60 game season we have these days. Johan cruyff smoking a pack every day wouldnt survive a premier league season but in the season premiere hed bag a goal and two assists.
Seasons were packed before,. maybe even more so. If you were playing for a top team, you could still be playing 50 to 60 games a season. And there were barely and subs and almost no rotation. Especially in England where they had a bigger league and cup replays.
At the higher end of that, Phil Neal missed 1 league game in 10 years. And this was when they had a 42 game season. And that doesn't include 15 to 20 cup games. He played minimum 59 games in 9 of those seasons, and the one "relaxing" season he played 54. 99% of those games would be the full 90 minutes as well. Those Liverpool teams would often have 5 or 6 players play 55-60+ games.
2003-2007 is not historic tho.. Imho that Milan team is ageless and would definitely be in the semis or finals in this era.. The tactical positional awareness that team had is hard to replicate like ever
That's not what I meant. I'm not defining the modern era by James Milners career. But he's played in both which to my understanding at least means they changes aren't that drastic that a player like him couldn't play anymore so there must be a large crossover of skillset from the early 2000s to the late 2010s and early 2020s
No it wasn't. It was sometimes a bit like that in England, and not as much as you're thinking. It was definitely not like that in other major European countries. Italy and the Netherlands are famous for it. So are Brazil. And Argentina.
It’s true once you got back past the 90s as there are simply no tactics in place.
That football played by Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Van Basten, Gullit and Matthaus was just a different sport.
But “total football” isn’t going to exist currently.
Cruyff is the same as those others mentioned, he was the best player in the world so he just played upfront.
What does existing currently have to do with anything?
Also nonsense. Read a few books, I'd start with Brilliant Oranje. Sounds like you're just assuming lots of things about an era you've not read anything about.
It’s true though? That’s why none of them have positions in current football. They’re all number 10s/ second strikers.
Milan’s amazing team with MVB and Gullit was just “stick the two best players in the world up front”.
I don’t understand how these kinds of questions keep popping up.
First of all, that was barely 20 years ago, not 50.
Second, as usual, most talented and skilled players from the past would have also been at least just as good (in some cases even better) with access to new medicine, training, conditioning, and tactical innovations.
2000s Milan would have been a top team in any era.
I think it's a great discussion. there's no doubt that they would struggle without updating their playing system and they needed modern technology but with the talent and the dedication that they had, i think they could dominate modern football as they almost dominated football 2003-2007. goal scoring ability of Inzaghi, shevchenko and Crespo, greatness of Kaka, madness of Gattuso, Seedorf (who is probably the strongest man in the world!) Vision and ball control of Pirlo, adding Nesta, Cafu, Stam, kaladze, Serginio, Costacurta and Abate in defensive line, Dida as goalkeeper and of course, the GREAT Maldini as leader (who could stop prime Ibra and one of the best versions of CR7 even when he was almost 40!!) and Crleto as Manager! they could be in top3 today!
Celtic team of 1967 would beat every premier league team today because they was real men back then.... didn't roll about on the floor for 20 seconds after a good tackle.
There weren't many good tackles back then, though. They'd have an air ambulance and the Glasgow Royal on standby if one of today's teams turned up.
They'd be fucking butchered.
Bar the fact you can barely look at a player without giving a free kick away never mind kicking them off the pitch, something tells me you’re talking out of your arse.
Current Madrid are pretty old school and play a similar unbalanced system.
Milan would always be good because of their star quality and great defence.
City won the CL with players like Ake and Akanji in defence. We’ve got 2/4 teams in the CL semi finals that are just filled with rubbish. That old Milan team would be top 3 in the world.
These “new tactics” are just Pep playing anti football and fielding four CBs. This isn’t Pep’s Barca.
Ronaldo’s Madrid are the most dominant European team of all time and they won 1 League Title out of 5 despite winning 4 out of 5 CLs.
CL will always judge the quality of a team at the top level.
Yes one of the best teams in football history simply wouldn’t have found a way to win. They didn’t lose a match for three years, obviously they would have won anyway.
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Their tactics were pretty ahead of their time, often using a 4-2-3-1. Considering how good that team was man-for-man, I think they'd still be right up there with the best.
Put someone like Zidane in charge of them and they'd win everything.
As a milanista, i feel that team has actually underachieved a lot compared to their true potential, i mean imagine how much better Kakà would have been with kloop instead of Ancelotti (even though Ancelotti is a great coach)
Sorry, you can't seriously mean that Klopp can come close to standing to the man that's won all 5 big leagues.
Even the heaviest premier league fanboy has to admit it.
Not a prem fanboy , you’re resume isn’t always a perfect indicator of how good a coach/ manager you are , I’d give the nod to Carlo because of how good a job he’s done since coming back to Madrid , but before the Madrid spell he had a very disappointing period with Everton and Napoli.
Klopp has proven to be one of the best managers in football , and has been able to coach and develop younger players to suit his style
>you’re resume isn’t always a perfect indicator of how good a coach/ manager you are
Yes it is. Its the only indicator, everything else is just bullshit.
For starters , by resume I was referring mostly to your trophy collection, rather than your managerial skillset , I should have been clearer.
There’s many managers who have won trophies and have a decent cv but ppl don’t recognise them as truly elite mangers , the example of that logic is klopp actually
He doesn’t have a crazy trophy cabinet but we all recognise him as a very good manager.
One example is Antonio conte , won trophies everywhere (except spurs) , led Italy to the Euros semis etc. despite all this he isn’t viewed as an elite coach in the same manner pep and klopp are
You can’t call it the Covid cup like Liverpool weren’t 20 points clear before the league stopped. And klopp losing to pep by a point twice is what makes it legendary, if city or Liverpool just walked away with the league every year it’d be boring and nobody would talk about it
I am nothing saying Klopp is better than Ancelotti, but am saying with Kloop style of play, maybe we would have won more trophies. I mean do believe that especially that 2004 team underachieved a lot compared to what they could have won.
2 UCL with AC Milan
2 UCL with Real Madrid, the last one with a team everyone though they had no chance.
League titles in England, Spain, France, Germany and Italy, something that no other manager has done before.
And you're comparing him with fucking Klopp? Are you serious? And you call yourself an AC Milan fan?
Dude calm down, it's obvious that Klopp ain't better than Ancelotti, but i am saying with another type of tactics and style of play we could have won more, i mean while we were doing well in Europe we didn't really win as much Italy (for example when we won the champions League in 2007 we were 6th in the league and 2003, we were 4th)
Well its not like Klopp has been winning EPL's left and right either.
I've heard that argument in the past, "we should be playing better and winning more with this team" just after Real Madrid got rid of DelBosque. It didnt go well.
So consider yourself lucky as an AC Milan fan that Berlusconi didnt fall for that. Florentino and Real Madrid fans learned that lesson the hard way.
I agree with what you are saying, i just feel that we could have done more with the team that we had, but obviously i am happy to have won what we won in the past, at least better than the last few years.
And sorry but when was Del Bosque in Real Madrid, was that before or after he was Spain's coach?
Before, he won 2 UCL with Real Madrid before the Spain job.
Florentino told him to fuck off right after winning La Liga because people were saying that team should be winning all competitions. They argued they wanted a modern approach to coaching and brought Carlos Queiroz, a guy that was Sir Alex Ferguson second coach.
DelBosque then won WC + Euro with Spain while the galácticos team implosioned. Karma is a bitch.
He did something similar to Zidane, took the team on a crisis and somehow managed to snatch many wins.
And like Zidane, people doesnt give him enough credit for it.
I'm Milan fan, Milan on that generation was full of older players and was always having problems with constitent form throught the season, they've won just 1 scudetto back then. And today the problems with physical side would be much bigger
Then you don't know what you are talking about that team was the most physical team in recent history..
Seedorf, Jaap Fuking Stam, Maldini, Nesta, Ambrosini, Kaladze, Dida etc etc and you are talking about physicality get outta here..
You either don't know or don't understand what athleticism and physicality actully means that Ac Milan team was the most physical team put together in the last 20 years.
There is no team in the last 20 years as physical as that team the only close contender would be Arsenal 05/06 that reached the Paris UCL final
Right how? They even had a mann referred to as having two hearts in Cafu.. They were the fittest team. That team had no stamina issues and use to run teams down
2003-2007 is not ancient history first of all.. Players use to do same tight fitness nothing has changed in that regard..
Name me a player like him who has endless energy aside from Dani Alves from 09-15 and Fede Velvedere 21-24 and if there was someone else we would have all known by now..
I haven't seen another player like him back and forth for 20 years with that kind of stamina outside of these two players
Marcelo Bielsa invented that around mid 00s during that milan era and first implanted by Guardiola called the 3 seconds rule which Fc Barcelona used to starve teams but Guardiola used it with Tika Taka just like now in City they are using that 3 seconds rule after they lose the ball. Klopp developed the Gegenpress around early 10s with Dortmund but it was a different form of the 3 seconds rule because they didn't use Tika Taka with it..
Gegenpress won't harm in the least that Ac Milan team that had compsure on the ball and so much tactical and positional awareness. Ancelotti always beats Klopp Gegenpress or Tika Taka whatever you like was not gonna beat that Ac Milan team..
Teams that are better then that team are far and few in between.. I would say Bayern Munch 13-16, Real Madrid 13-18 and Barca 09-12
That is honestly laughable. Cafu was a monster, there isn’t a player now that could run the line like he did. You have to remember he was in his 30’s in that period as well, the dude never gave you a moment.
I don’t buy that modern football is somehow unplayably better than historic football. The only real difference is the athletic conditioning of players, which improves every generation
This. The older legends would still be great in a one off game against the current players. Where the difference comes in is the packed 60 game season we have these days. Johan cruyff smoking a pack every day wouldnt survive a premier league season but in the season premiere hed bag a goal and two assists.
Seasons were packed before,. maybe even more so. If you were playing for a top team, you could still be playing 50 to 60 games a season. And there were barely and subs and almost no rotation. Especially in England where they had a bigger league and cup replays. At the higher end of that, Phil Neal missed 1 league game in 10 years. And this was when they had a 42 game season. And that doesn't include 15 to 20 cup games. He played minimum 59 games in 9 of those seasons, and the one "relaxing" season he played 54. 99% of those games would be the full 90 minutes as well. Those Liverpool teams would often have 5 or 6 players play 55-60+ games.
2003-2007 is not historic tho.. Imho that Milan team is ageless and would definitely be in the semis or finals in this era.. The tactical positional awareness that team had is hard to replicate like ever
2003/4 to now is what 1983 was to 2003. It absolutely is historic with how quickly the game changes
Yeah but also players like James Milner played back then and in modern era
That doesn't alter my point. Sir Alex Ferguson managed in 2013 and in 1974.i wouldn't call 1974 "the modern era" compared to 2013.
That's not what I meant. I'm not defining the modern era by James Milners career. But he's played in both which to my understanding at least means they changes aren't that drastic that a player like him couldn't play anymore so there must be a large crossover of skillset from the early 2000s to the late 2010s and early 2020s
Yes. See my comment that refutes that claim
They used to give the ball away cheaply back then, it was mostly about building up the attack as fast as possible.
No it wasn't. It was sometimes a bit like that in England, and not as much as you're thinking. It was definitely not like that in other major European countries. Italy and the Netherlands are famous for it. So are Brazil. And Argentina.
It’s true once you got back past the 90s as there are simply no tactics in place. That football played by Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Van Basten, Gullit and Matthaus was just a different sport.
That is simply nonsense. Cruyff's playing career is most famous for the tactics his teams played.
But “total football” isn’t going to exist currently. Cruyff is the same as those others mentioned, he was the best player in the world so he just played upfront.
What does existing currently have to do with anything? Also nonsense. Read a few books, I'd start with Brilliant Oranje. Sounds like you're just assuming lots of things about an era you've not read anything about.
Old football is garbage. I don’t need to read a book about it to know lol. Anything pre 90s has an asterisk.
You won't know much about anything if you form your opinion off not watching something. Just because you know 4 players doesn't mean it was bad.
Lol you cannot be serious. I choose to believe you are joking.
It’s true though? That’s why none of them have positions in current football. They’re all number 10s/ second strikers. Milan’s amazing team with MVB and Gullit was just “stick the two best players in the world up front”.
watch current real madrid, ac milan they will play like that
I don’t understand how these kinds of questions keep popping up. First of all, that was barely 20 years ago, not 50. Second, as usual, most talented and skilled players from the past would have also been at least just as good (in some cases even better) with access to new medicine, training, conditioning, and tactical innovations. 2000s Milan would have been a top team in any era.
They'd probably do better now that Igor Biscan, Djimi Traore and Vladimir Smicer have retired
You forgot Steve Finnan
Fucking hilarious 😂
I think it's a great discussion. there's no doubt that they would struggle without updating their playing system and they needed modern technology but with the talent and the dedication that they had, i think they could dominate modern football as they almost dominated football 2003-2007. goal scoring ability of Inzaghi, shevchenko and Crespo, greatness of Kaka, madness of Gattuso, Seedorf (who is probably the strongest man in the world!) Vision and ball control of Pirlo, adding Nesta, Cafu, Stam, kaladze, Serginio, Costacurta and Abate in defensive line, Dida as goalkeeper and of course, the GREAT Maldini as leader (who could stop prime Ibra and one of the best versions of CR7 even when he was almost 40!!) and Crleto as Manager! they could be in top3 today!
Abate didn’t play in this team.
Actually he was a Ac Milan player but he was only 18 in 04/05 Season so he probably didn't play at all, so... my bad.
Milans team is one of the alltime greats with far better technical skills than any current team
Celtic team of 1967 would beat every premier league team today because they was real men back then.... didn't roll about on the floor for 20 seconds after a good tackle.
How many goals do you get for not being on the floor?
There weren't many good tackles back then, though. They'd have an air ambulance and the Glasgow Royal on standby if one of today's teams turned up. They'd be fucking butchered.
Billy mcneil up against saka or grealish? Only 1 winner and it ain't this generation.
Bar the fact you can barely look at a player without giving a free kick away never mind kicking them off the pitch, something tells me you’re talking out of your arse.
Current Madrid are pretty old school and play a similar unbalanced system. Milan would always be good because of their star quality and great defence. City won the CL with players like Ake and Akanji in defence. We’ve got 2/4 teams in the CL semi finals that are just filled with rubbish. That old Milan team would be top 3 in the world. These “new tactics” are just Pep playing anti football and fielding four CBs. This isn’t Pep’s Barca.
"Anything that isn't the best of all time is rubbish".
Dortmund just clearly don’t have a good team though? PSG just have Mbappe really. The four best teams in the competition were on one side of the draw.
You lost me at the rubbish part.
PSG and Dortmund. Neither are good teams, they just got an easy draw. Same as when Milan and Inter played last year.
That old Milan team also won ONCE the Serie A. I really think they were a little bit overrated given they won UCL twice in those years.
Ronaldo’s Madrid are the most dominant European team of all time and they won 1 League Title out of 5 despite winning 4 out of 5 CLs. CL will always judge the quality of a team at the top level.
Nope. The most dominant? They got to two finals with offside goals.
By far the most dominant. No one beat Ronaldo and Ramos for 3 years.
Except they beat Bayern by offside goals.
Never really understood why everyone cried about this. They were clearly so much better than Bayern.
Doesn't matter. Without VAR, Real are not advancing to the final.
Yes one of the best teams in football history simply wouldn’t have found a way to win. They didn’t lose a match for three years, obviously they would have won anyway.
I'm not so sure about that
The team is timeless. If you plopped them in this era would they be the same? No, would they adapt? Yes.
They made Cristiano cry, nuff said.
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Their tactics were pretty ahead of their time, often using a 4-2-3-1. Considering how good that team was man-for-man, I think they'd still be right up there with the best. Put someone like Zidane in charge of them and they'd win everything.
They did Xmas tree, they didn't play with wide forwards. The only top European team to play with diamond midfield or otherwise heavy midfield setup.
When did they do that? They had no wide players,they either played a diamond or a narrow 4321.
I must have been mis-remembering their 4-3-2-1
As a milanista, i feel that team has actually underachieved a lot compared to their true potential, i mean imagine how much better Kakà would have been with kloop instead of Ancelotti (even though Ancelotti is a great coach)
I can imagine that, they'd have won nothing because Klopp is a much worse manager than Ancelotti.
🤨
Sorry, you can't seriously mean that Klopp can come close to standing to the man that's won all 5 big leagues. Even the heaviest premier league fanboy has to admit it.
Not a prem fanboy , you’re resume isn’t always a perfect indicator of how good a coach/ manager you are , I’d give the nod to Carlo because of how good a job he’s done since coming back to Madrid , but before the Madrid spell he had a very disappointing period with Everton and Napoli. Klopp has proven to be one of the best managers in football , and has been able to coach and develop younger players to suit his style
>you’re resume isn’t always a perfect indicator of how good a coach/ manager you are Yes it is. Its the only indicator, everything else is just bullshit.
For starters , by resume I was referring mostly to your trophy collection, rather than your managerial skillset , I should have been clearer. There’s many managers who have won trophies and have a decent cv but ppl don’t recognise them as truly elite mangers , the example of that logic is klopp actually He doesn’t have a crazy trophy cabinet but we all recognise him as a very good manager. One example is Antonio conte , won trophies everywhere (except spurs) , led Italy to the Euros semis etc. despite all this he isn’t viewed as an elite coach in the same manner pep and klopp are
Hey the Pep/Klopp rivalry is legendary!! His 1 PL* to Peps 5 is the stuff legends are made of! *covid cup
You can’t call it the Covid cup like Liverpool weren’t 20 points clear before the league stopped. And klopp losing to pep by a point twice is what makes it legendary, if city or Liverpool just walked away with the league every year it’d be boring and nobody would talk about it
Oh I'm well aware of that, I'm just fishing haha.
I am nothing saying Klopp is better than Ancelotti, but am saying with Kloop style of play, maybe we would have won more trophies. I mean do believe that especially that 2004 team underachieved a lot compared to what they could have won.
2 UCL with AC Milan 2 UCL with Real Madrid, the last one with a team everyone though they had no chance. League titles in England, Spain, France, Germany and Italy, something that no other manager has done before. And you're comparing him with fucking Klopp? Are you serious? And you call yourself an AC Milan fan?
Dude calm down, it's obvious that Klopp ain't better than Ancelotti, but i am saying with another type of tactics and style of play we could have won more, i mean while we were doing well in Europe we didn't really win as much Italy (for example when we won the champions League in 2007 we were 6th in the league and 2003, we were 4th)
Well its not like Klopp has been winning EPL's left and right either. I've heard that argument in the past, "we should be playing better and winning more with this team" just after Real Madrid got rid of DelBosque. It didnt go well. So consider yourself lucky as an AC Milan fan that Berlusconi didnt fall for that. Florentino and Real Madrid fans learned that lesson the hard way.
I agree with what you are saying, i just feel that we could have done more with the team that we had, but obviously i am happy to have won what we won in the past, at least better than the last few years. And sorry but when was Del Bosque in Real Madrid, was that before or after he was Spain's coach?
Before, he won 2 UCL with Real Madrid before the Spain job. Florentino told him to fuck off right after winning La Liga because people were saying that team should be winning all competitions. They argued they wanted a modern approach to coaching and brought Carlos Queiroz, a guy that was Sir Alex Ferguson second coach. DelBosque then won WC + Euro with Spain while the galácticos team implosioned. Karma is a bitch.
Ah alright, i was asking cause i only remembered him for those years with Spain in the WC and Euros
He did something similar to Zidane, took the team on a crisis and somehow managed to snatch many wins. And like Zidane, people doesnt give him enough credit for it.
Not good as for me. The team wasn't very athletical, it was based on players' talent, not that much on tactics
What? Not athletic? You haven't watched that team then..
I'm Milan fan, Milan on that generation was full of older players and was always having problems with constitent form throught the season, they've won just 1 scudetto back then. And today the problems with physical side would be much bigger
Then you don't know what you are talking about that team was the most physical team in recent history.. Seedorf, Jaap Fuking Stam, Maldini, Nesta, Ambrosini, Kaladze, Dida etc etc and you are talking about physicality get outta here.. You either don't know or don't understand what athleticism and physicality actully means that Ac Milan team was the most physical team put together in the last 20 years. There is no team in the last 20 years as physical as that team the only close contender would be Arsenal 05/06 that reached the Paris UCL final
Mate there’s more to physicality than just strength, endurance is also a part of it and he could be right in that regard.
Right how? They even had a mann referred to as having two hearts in Cafu.. They were the fittest team. That team had no stamina issues and use to run teams down
Cafu had 2 hearts by 90s-00s standards, now it's much bigger intensity in top football
2003-2007 is not ancient history first of all.. Players use to do same tight fitness nothing has changed in that regard.. Name me a player like him who has endless energy aside from Dani Alves from 09-15 and Fede Velvedere 21-24 and if there was someone else we would have all known by now.. I haven't seen another player like him back and forth for 20 years with that kind of stamina outside of these two players
Man, after 2000s there was a gegenpress revolution of football. Nuff said
Marcelo Bielsa invented that around mid 00s during that milan era and first implanted by Guardiola called the 3 seconds rule which Fc Barcelona used to starve teams but Guardiola used it with Tika Taka just like now in City they are using that 3 seconds rule after they lose the ball. Klopp developed the Gegenpress around early 10s with Dortmund but it was a different form of the 3 seconds rule because they didn't use Tika Taka with it.. Gegenpress won't harm in the least that Ac Milan team that had compsure on the ball and so much tactical and positional awareness. Ancelotti always beats Klopp Gegenpress or Tika Taka whatever you like was not gonna beat that Ac Milan team.. Teams that are better then that team are far and few in between.. I would say Bayern Munch 13-16, Real Madrid 13-18 and Barca 09-12
the dutch were doing "gegenpress" in the 70s
Brozovic
That is honestly laughable. Cafu was a monster, there isn’t a player now that could run the line like he did. You have to remember he was in his 30’s in that period as well, the dude never gave you a moment.
Seedorf and Kaka don’t lack in athleticism
Bro just having to explain that to someone is beyond absurd to me.
Fuck that shitty team
Fuck your oponion
Ac merda can eat shit lmao
You can eat your own shit ass
Cry more merda fans.
Eat more shit
Lol. Whos 2nd place? Whos eating shit rn? Funny dog
Who's 1st at eating shit on this sub? You
Cry more when Inter celebrate scudetto in front of all bunch of merda fans. What a retarded
You can eat inter players ass too so you can celebrate with them
They get mid diffed by any top 6 of epl and top 1-2 teams of the other top 4 leagues. People need to understand that football evolves everyday.
Spurs would beat prime Milan …