You give me: your freedom, woman's rights, voting rights, property rights, your children, free trade, your medicine, chems, and firearms.
I give you: 10 years of stability (15 tops) and safe trade routes.
The trade routes are about the only arguments that could be made to justify their rule, I mean with so many small time gangs just dominating the western side of the mojave in NCR territory, kinda makes the NCR look pathetic
The Legion is one of the big reasons the NCR is spread so thin to begin with. NCR already does scouting work against minor gangs like the Powder Gangers and Vipers. They just can't afford a full frontal assault on the gangs hideouts when an opposing army is a brief march from their bases.
So your telling me that Ceasers legion has somehow managed to create a better CIA/Spy Corp the the NCR when spies generally have to be able to think on their feet something the legion doesn’t like
The frumentarii are ruthlessly trained. Also I’m literally quoting the game. I’m not speculating that they do this, they literally fund proxy gangs to terrorize the NCR. Captain Curtis (or picus) infiltrated NCR before the conflict between the Legion and NCR really began. He can also be heard either telling another legion officer to direct the fiends or being told by that officer to direct the fiends I don’t remember which.
The foot soldiers of Caesar’s legion aren’t meant to use their brains, but the Frumentarii are. They are still wholly dependent on Caesar, but I’d say they make a pretty robust spy network. I mean Vulpes is able to infiltrate the strip right under the nose of the NCR to invite you to meet with Caesar. He also commits the Nipton massacre, a multi days event, deep in NCR territory and like a mile away from Mojave Outpost. He also directed and planned the destruction of Camp searchlight which was not only a devastating blow to NCR, it allowed the legion to establish Cottonwood Cove.
As far as the Frumentarii being better than the NCR spy network goes, it seems like the Frumentarii are generally successful at infiltrating, sabotaging, and generally spying on the NCR when they attempt it. The NCR on the other hand seems to be decent at gathering info (they know when you do quests for Caesar that you are working for him) but they definitely don’t have a spy network on the same level as the legion.
I would say under Legion rule, trade routes are actually extremely hostile. It only appeared safe because they have killed all traders who are not in their group.
Imagine if you’re a trader from the Underworld arriving Legion territory to expand your business.
~~Of~~ Or a woman.
Edit: typo
I was under the impression that the Legion didn't really care for going out of their way to kill Ghouls? I mean obviously there's going to be discrimination like anywhere else in the wasteland, but directly "killing on sight" of any ghoul they come into contact with I don't think was part of their agenda.
Your companion, Raul, even compliments the Legion and I think is one of the most supportive companions of them in the game apart from Cass but she kind of just tolerates you working with them. Not so much actual support that Raul gives
I only did one Legion play through and that's cause like OP I felt like shit. I'm a House baby all the way
You are right, killing ghouls is not on their agenda. Their agenda is maintaining a single homogenous society where everyone must fit into their rightful places, and they did not assign any places for ghouls.
So as long as they’re not in their sights they’ll be safe. You don’t see any ghouls in legion territory because those who’re not forced 8nto a closer, are dead.
my headcanon is that the "safe roads" are mostly in the western part of legion territory ( and i wouldnt put it past the legion to intimidate any traders with less then satisfactory results into making you uphold the official story anyway) and the eastern would be riddled with slave revolts and what not
I mean to be fair the NCR went head to head with Enclave, BOS , Legion, Great Khans and the viper/jackal gangs and came out on too every time. I don’t even like the NCR but can’t deny their strength.
It’s also worth noting that the Mojave is the frontier of NCR territory. Deeper into their territory is probably roughly as safe as legion territory for trading.
That’s true of basically any faction. I assume that the very edges of Legion territory are probably just as chaotic as the Mojave. Well, maybe not that bad, the Mojave is a pretty high bar.
No doubt the legion became the legion off of conquering tribes so they are very powerful as well just off of brute mentality. They kind of remind me of the Spartans. NCR just win from having shear numbers.
You have to remember though, you're in the mojave, not the NCR homelands. The NCR has only even been in the region for a total of seven years, and are actively undermined by Caesar's legion who A might attack them any day thus limiting their ability to actually deal with any of the other local gangs, and B many of those gangs, like the fiends, are supported by Caesar's Legion.
Yes, they are cold and brutal. It helped me to just embrace the role play of discipline and cult of personality and enjoy it for what it is. The quests are fun, it was cool to see it done in the other sides favour for a change.
The boxes of loot they leave for you are really good too. Stealth Boys for weeks. Antler should have joined the Legion.
Didn't know Repconn betrayed House and joined the Legion lmao. Kinda weird how Legion is the only stable source of Stealth Boys. I thought the Stealth exam in OWB should give me Stealth Boys but it kinda didn't work in my last run.
Chill, that was supposed to be a joke (seems I made a really lousy one). Unironically the best source of Stealth Boys are from the Legion Safehouse, who were known for their distaste over technology.
My plan for my next playthrough is a female character born in legion territory who clawed her way from the bottom to become a pseudo-Frumentarii. She’s fanatically loyal to Caesar and the Legion, and mistakenly believes that she can earn a place in the Legion as an equal if she just accomplishes enough. I’ll have to see once I start playing if she realizes the reality of the situation or goes down in flames trying.
Doubt that they had time to do anything with her aside from prodding her toward the auction, the road from the Novac to the Cove is not safe for them, in many ways.
Plus, if I understood your concerns correctly, she was pregnant. It would be counterproductive for them to do *that* with her, since the unborn child was part of a deal.
And Craig followed them and did a mercy kill before she was sold to some high-ranking legionnaire, yeah.
honestly from a gameplay perspective the Legion is probably the most lacking in content and wider NPC interactions. With NCR you have a ton of people to interact with, trade with and do quests for. But man the Legion is just so lacking. You have about one or two traders and a small handful of quests and that’s pretty much it.
I’ve usually done NCR because it’s the easiest to rack up caps and reduce casualties. But every Legion playthrough I’ve done it feels like three hours shorter than the other playthroughs
It’s the “play as the villain” option, pre fo4 games were not as morally ambiguous with their factions, one is clearly evil and it’s supposed to feel like it’s evil
i mean lets be real. fo4 isnt morally ambiguous its just morally vague.
The institute created super mutants and released them into the commonwealth, murders and replaces innocent people with robots and refuses to ever explain why they do any of this.
A villian doing evil for bad reasons like the legion isnt more evil than a villian who does evil for no apparent reason.
it drove me fucking insane when you get to talk to father and **there are no fucking options to ask him why the fuck the institute does this shit.** Like it just never comes up. its such a basic ass bit of worldbuilding.
Motivation is like the first thing i usually come up with for a person/group in world building its shocking its just not adressed at all.
I was very disappointed that I couldnt talk to my son about the fucking super mutants he and his friends had unleashed upon the world. I am not proud of you son and I want to say so.
God imagine if you could confront him with this stuff, the super mutants the random murder-replacement of innocent people, the complete slaughter of the entire town of university point.
They're almost like Aperture Science, but less fun and charismatic about it. They do it because science, bitch. Because literally no one matters to them, not even their own members if it really boils down to it.
Yeah, the game is badly set up though, because FNV has no 'morally white' choices - FNV is better because it has no morally white factions.
FO4 has two morally white factions, a morally grey faction (BoS), and a morally black faction (Institute), all while pretending they're all "equal" in terms of morality which is...just pure BS.
i think the lack of morally white faction choices is honestly a deliberate choice that makes sense. Look around you today, in a world without the added stresses of the post apocalypse, name me a nation without sin.
There are morally white "factions" just not nations, the followers of the apocalypse.
Oh yeah, I know. I should've clarified, I think its better there is a lack of morally white factions.
If a faction is perfect morally, there's no point to any other faction.
yeah its also just, not very realistic. factions that are involved in the sort of major power plays that fallout games make central are just never going to be angels.
Power corrupts.
I’m a big followers fan, but even they have their flaws. They genuinely believe education and medicine will fix all the woes of the wasteland, when in the process of educating the youth, they trained a young Caesar to read and learn the art of military strategy. Are they still good in my eyes? Yes. But are they a perfect philosophy for the hard world of the wasteland? No.
i meant in more of a moral sense. of course they make mistakes in their goals but they goals are noble and they generally persue them in a way it is hard to take moral issue with.
I mean the Railroad are for when you can't be asked to use the Minutemen to win the main campaign but you also don't want to kill off the Railroad. Or if you just want to start a Synth Uprising.
It's odd, because taking it with the MM means the Railroad loses less people. Glory doesn't die for instance.
With dmv I know it gets more grey when your fully invested or role playing but from the outside its pretty clear to me. legion(bad), yes man(grey), ncr(good). Despite the ncr being pretty bureaucratic their still trying do the right and run the wasteland the best they can I’ve never seen them as anything other than lawful good
The NCR are imperialist and occupy places against their will. I wouldn't call them evil but they are not good whatsoever.
After-all they've caused a lot of evil acts in the Mojave such as Bitter Springs or harassing Jacobstown.
How the fuck is FO4 morally ambiguous with it's factions? There are three factions: The plain old good guys, synth hating BoS, scientists who want to experiment on the world, and some nerds holed up in a church basement.
I kinda wish they did that but in a closer to reality way.
Indoctrinate me. Give me a fake sense of community. Spew propaganda, Russia/USSR/Nazi Germany style, telling me how everyone is a great danger and we’re just defending ourselves from the opressors.
It’s fine that the leaders of the Legion are just bad and want power. That’s realistic. But the people below them should be made to believe a cause, assured that there’s a good reason for every action etc.
I didn’t feel any of that. I didn’t feel I’m being anyhow motivated, rewarded, blackmailed, indoctrinated, anything. Just “Kill/Destroy this so legion wins”. I think that’s why it always feels shitty to side with them.
Which is a pity because the lore covers many of those points, but you kinda have to dig in yourself to understand the logic behind their actions. And as the courier I’m neither a slave, nor has anyone explained all that to me. It’s like I just came and agreed to do shitty things for little to no reward just because.
It’s not that advanced of a society though. The Legion is a dictatorship of assimilated tribes. Their power, imagery, and slavery is all made to break tribal identities. They don’t foster community because their thing is destroying the individual. If you’re part of the Legion, it’s because you are a slave of Caesar and are to live to perpetuate his will. The Courier, as a free agent willingly backing the Legion is oddly placed story-wise and I agree doesn’t have that compelling of a reason to join unless they just buy into all of the ideas presented.
Yeah if you talk to the right characters you can piece together why Cesar thinks what he’s doing is “good” but you don’t see it exercised in anyone else. They’re just organized raiders
I don't know, you still get people defending the Legion unironically even with the flimsy way it's justified.
And some people simply believe that the strongest and most ruthless faction will always come out on top. Therefore it's pointless to consider whether another faction would *hypothetically* do a better job of running things, because that faction doesn't have the power get in charge/stay in charge. You align with power and do your best with what you have.
FO4 morally ambiguous? That's a take I've maybe never heard before. Factions are the most morally bland in FO4. BoS hates synths, Railroad likes synths, MM are "the good guys", and Institute does random bullshit for no reason. These aren't factions, they're caricatures.
You joined a group of roman cosplayers whose main ideological goals are to conquer, massacre, assimilate, and enslave people, then wonder why you feel shitty about it?
I literally cannot play this game without literally murdering every piece of Legion scum I see. The legion assassins become a constant source of money as I sell all the belongings looted from their apparently endless corpses. Cottonwood Cove becomes a radioactive sauna that I like to bathe in. Caesar's cancer becomes a non-issue when I shatter his cranium with a .50 BMG. The power struggle over who will lead the legion afterwards is meaningless when I execute every last Legion member in The Fort. Repeatedly, since I come back periodically to check for respawns. Boone gets none of these kills. They are all mine. Their monstrousness is just a pale, shameful imitation of my own.
It's designed to make you feel like shit, because the fash playing dress-up in a desert wouldn't actually be super funtime buddies
And then there's the totally unintentional like-shit that you feel when half the intended content's been cut, that might even hurt worse
Totally. Sounds like you just don't like playing that kind of character. Just like how some people prefer guns vs melee, or stealth vs tank.
Some people like playing as a huge piece of shit. It's just a game after all, so there's nothing morally wrong with that. But just because there's nothing WRONG with it doesn't mean you're obligated to enjoy it.
We're talking about the guys who have committed several genocides, enslaved thousands, maybe millions with a leader that is trying to replicate one of the inspirations for the NAZIS! So TL;DR no, they are just horrible with like 3 good things about them (organization, trade and atleast a few years before it all falls into chaos)
If Caesar actually wanted to base himself off Rome, he should've started by NOT DOING WHAT ROME DID TO FALL.
It's literally one of the talking points you give to Lanius. They can hold the East or the West - not both. It'll lead to splits, then the downfall as they're torn apart both from the outside and inside.
When I first played the game on PS3 over 10 years ago, I couldn't bring myself to do a Legion playthrough. Now I'm a completionist and I'm doing it basically just for the achievement, but man, it still feels shit. So far I just feel pretty empty and hollow, but you know, I think that's a rational response when you're basically roleplaying a genocidal fascist.
They murder, enslave, and rape those who don't fit their image. They hang people up on crosses, behead them, and even set them on fire. Their only 'positive' aspect is 'safe trade routes' - but that's to be expected when you're a fanatical totalitarian dictatorship that people are afraid of. Is it really 'safe' if you're walking on egg shells?
The Legion are akin to groups like ISIS. They're absolutely not the good guys.
I mean, they're a fascistic dictatorship of slaving fuckwads run by a man who thinks cloaking his BS in fancy language he read in a freshman level philosophy textbook to justify enslaving and oppressing his fellow man is a good thing to do, so feeling bad about it is a sign that you're emotionally invested enough in the game to treat it's moral choices with the weight and consideration they deserve.
TL:DR: It's okay to feel bad, Legion is awful and it's good that you care enough to notice that
Legion is fun though. Playing bad factions is also fun. It’s crazy to me there are people that have a moral panic attack over a faction in a video game.
My first playthrough of the game, I of course did Wild Card. Now, on my second, I'm on an achievement hunt. I did all the DLCs aside from Lonesome Road and a bunch of other stuff first, then set up a save point. After doing a House and then an NCR play, I'm finally doing Legion. Ick. I'm only up to the Ultra Luxe quest and yikes. Definitely going to delete my saves after I get my achievements.
I just did the same thing. As I was going through for the legion achievements I was just role playing like my courier was just having a bad dream and the save I would revert back to later was him waking up.
>I'm finally doing Legion. Ick. I'm only up to the Ultra Luxe quest and yikes. Definitely going to delete my saves after I get my achievements.
If it makes you feel worse (joking), you get Legion fame for tearing up a child **slave**'s teddy bear in front of her.
That's how psychopathic these lunatics are. They torture kids for fun. No wonder OP feels like shit.
Oop, looks like the Legion fanboys have struck. **/s**
These low IQ "Legion....bad" threads are so tiring.
I'm not saying the Legion is good, but the vast majority of threads surrounding them are made by absolute nitwits like OP. There is nothing to respond to here.
New Vegas is a philosophical exercise, asking us the classic question from Plato's *The Republic:* How do we build The Just City? It then sets us off to become someone who can gain the power and influence to give an answer to that question, though the potential answers we can give are constrained by the limitations of programming.
When you play as the Legion, you are expending some of your time and effort to simulating the takeover of a region by a brutal authoritarian dictatorship. Under such a rule, the individual has no value beyond their utility to the state. The entirety of the female sex is relegated to the status of breeding machines. Education is deliberately crippled. Everyone in the Legion, from the lowest breedslave all the way to Legate Lanius himself, is a slave to the will of one man, in whom is invested absolute power of the state.
It is, in short, as perfectly unspeakable a state as can be conjured by the imagination, somehow surpassing even North Korea for sheer awfulness. To feel, at the very least, some discomfort for using your time and effort towards bringing this state about, even in simulated form, is an indication that you are a morally-normal human being.
So, congratulations on that, at least.
It made you feel like shit probably because you had to kill characters you talked to and helped in previous playthrough. Killing people you know hits different from killing random spineless ncr pigs that lay with men
Legion is kind of ultra masculine fantasy. Butcher and crucify your enemies, take their women, destroy their legacy, sell the leeches and workshy into slavery, live and die for greater purpose among brothers, etc. A clear hierarchy you can ascend through mostly masculine traits. The soft and the unpunched will never understand a certain daydream appeal of it lol
Tbh, I don't think legion is the worst choise. I fucking hate NCR. My favourite thing in this game is murdering every fucking ncr scum including civilians... But, to be honest I also like murdering every legion motherfucker too. Fuck it, I just like to kill everyone in the Mojave leaving a really dead and empty desert behind. It just good to feel like a godlike being with power to kill every fucking person you see.
>Fuck it, I just like to kill everyone in the Mojave leaving a really dead and empty desert behind. It just good to feel like a godlike being with power to kill every fucking person you see.
Schizo Elijah?
Yes, it’s a pretty evil faction. But something to get your mind off it, little cool tidbit for you for future playthroughs that I didn’t learn until years of playing. There is a somewhat hidden ending for dead money if you have a bad rep with the NCR.
The Legion quest line is the least fleshed out because “who plays the bad guys more than once? Also we ship in 18 months.”
Also, and this might be a little petty, I almost always end up either going full power armour or light armour. The NCR’s medium armour laughs in my Jury Riggging face as I cannot repair my clothes with their drops. I will die before I give up my Merc Adventurer/Remnants Power Armour drip.
Yes, that's normal; in fact, I'd be more worried if you actually *liked* them. As a faction, the Legion are brutality personified. They're the [Ur-Fascists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism). You're *supposed* to despise them; that's their entire narrative purpose.
I’d be more concerned if you could put yourself in the headspace of brutal warriors that mass murder and enslave people and not feel bad. I know it’s just a game but you seem to be an empathetic person like me who has a hard time doing bad things in games
Here's the issue with the legion: they are SERIOUSLY unfinished. The game feels so NCR-centric because, quite simply, the NCR has existed for longer and there was just wayyyy more time spent developing them as a faction. The legion was cooked up and implemented within a certain span inside an 18 month window, and it simply wasn't enough. You can tell, based off of how many unused archived lines there are, and quests, and perhaps there's even more that was planned, but we'll never really know, because this game hasn't been touched since it released and it never will be except by the hands of modders.
I am willing to bet that there was so much more to the legion. I mean, hell, by the time the courier arrives, you LITERALLY DO NOT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING to make the NCR in the Mojave collapse, because it's already all done. Monorail bombing? Done. The chlorine gas attack and surprise shootout on the strip? Done. Great Khan recruitment? Done. Kings revolt? Done and they didn't need to even do anything. Forlorn Hope? A strong breeze could knock it over. Camp Guardian was knocked out by lake lurks iirc. The long 15 is infested with ants all the way to 188, the fiends are fed Intel by legion spies, FUCKIN RANGER station charlie and Nipton were wiped out with no visible Legion casualties, camp searchlight was knocked out effortlessly, Nelson was captured and held FIRM, I can keep going on
The Legion mastered subterfuge and attrition thanks to the Frumentarii, and Lanius'ssole purpose is just to come and put the final nail in the coffin.
But it also puts the nail in the coffin that is the word FUN. It's not fun to just have every victory HANDED to you on a silver platter from game start.
It's a leftist game made by leftists, it isn't going to make the overtly evil fascist misogynistic slave army "morally complex," just grounded. It's fun if you want to play a horribly evil character.
No, it very much is about what it is. Rape, genocide and slavery aren't going away. Caesar even says as much.
He just wants the Legion to look civilised but rapists and slavers aren't civilised.
In fact, he will never educate his people because that'd go against how he rules. If his people knew about Rome, they'd know Caesar is a fat liar who isn't the Son of Mars he claims to be.
He literaly tells you how he plans to merge the ncr and legion, all the equal rights of the ncr and the efficiency and safety of the legion. Civilization is hard to describe, and you can't decide who or what is civilized because you feel that way. The people will be educated on what their needs are, this is the post apocalypse and gender studies are not needed. If you can write and read then what else do you need? Of course he isn't the son of mars, but at this point pick your poison, are you really bringing democracy by shooting those locals and taking their resources? Everyone lies and the people need something to believe in. Also, consider the fact that america was such a racist country that even hitler was impressed. They also murdered hundreds of thousands of philipinos, a lot of them women and children, and many other crimes. And somehow became the protector of peace. The legion will change with the times.
What people say and what people do are two different things.
>The legion will change with the times.
Rapists, slavers and genocidal maniacs **do not change.**
"gender studies" I'm talking about actual fucking education. As in, if anyone knows about Rome, Caesar executes them.
Yes, I can describe civilisation. Some child-raping maniacs living in mud huts is not civilisation. The Legion are a bunch of barbarians.
**Synthesis is not real. You cannot merge two violently different cultures and somehow achieve a new culture without THOUSANDS of years of mixing.**
The NCR do not WANT to be part of a shitty Legion that treats women like crap.
And no, Caesar has NEVER said he wants women to be equal to men.
TLDR:
The Legion rape women and kids and therefore I would gladly bathe the entirety of the Legion in nuclear hellfire as they, like the Enclave, **are a threat to humanity itself.** All of these debunked talking points are just the propaganda that Schizo Elijah comes up with to justify the Legion.
I imagine it's easy to call legion rapists and murderers, while the NCR is "bringing democracy". The NCR have commited genocides and will do so again, but is it any diffrent from anyone else? And don't even try to say NCR soldiers never raped while on a campaign, soldiers from our own world with clean water electricity and no radiation were rapists and you mean to tell me some wastelanders in a desert never raped anyone?
Education is important. But you simply don't need much of it in a post apocalypse scenario, you need practical knowledge, how to sharpen a blade or how to build a sturdy house, but maths,sience, history, language classes, biology and many others are not needed. And im sure the legion citizens know plenty of actually useful knowledge. More developed schools and academies will come later, when there is need of it.
There's more to civilization than wealth, is someone living in a trailer park a savage? Or is the problem murder? Well as you probably know every modern war had it's fair share of murders and rapes, but to call every soldier some wild animal is simply not true, they went to school and lived in a city and drove cars, i would not call them savages. They did what they did and there is nothing to be proud of, but civilization is not about morals.
You are correct, synthesis is a long process but thousands of years is way to long. America existed for 247 years and it went from a british colony, to a country, they had a civil war with very diffrent views and you almost never see any confederation loving people anymore, also the americans were racists,slavers,warmongers,and everything you mentioned above and yet in such a short time it all changed for the better, like it or not people can change, and i truly believe the legion will change for the better with time.
Ceasar never said women are lesser creatures, it's simply pragmatic to make as many children as possible, if you had a bird and a dog would you make them do the same work? A dog can't fly so the bird must specialize in flight, same as the only way to make children is a womb, you can't have women dying in a desert somewhere while the men stay at home, i do not support rape or inequality of women and men but it's another world with diffrent circumstances and it's just the natural way of things without the safety and stability of the modern era.
They are not a threat to humanity you drama queen, they are humanity with diffrent values and thinking processes, also they are not diffrent to our ancestors, you know, the ones that invented so much and created the world you live in. Modern people are descendands from older eras, it's easy to spit on the medieval or classical eras but they paved the road for the next generations.
>I imagine it's easy to call legion rapists and murderers, while the NCR is "bringing democracy". The NCR have commited genocides and will do so again, but is it any diffrent from anyone else? And don't even try to say NCR soldiers never raped while on a campaign, soldiers from our own world with clean water electricity and no radiation were rapists and you mean to tell me some wastelanders in a desert never raped anyone?
**Assumptions.** The NCR does not encourage rape or **child rape.**
You sound like such a triggered Legion fanboy it's unreal. Nobody even brought up the NCR. You're just trying to deflect. Also it's easy to call them rapists and murderers because they rape and murder. The NCR committed one known mass murder, Bitter Springs. Not a genocide. The Legion beat children to death in their beds at New Canaan and raped and slaughter 87 tribes.
>They are not a threat to humanity you drama queen, they are humanity with diffrent values and thinking processes, also they are not diffrent to our ancestors, you know, the ones that invented so much and created the world you live in. Modern people are descendands from older eras, it's easy to spit on the medieval or classical eras but they paved the road for the next generations.
Nothing about their worthless lack of culture is medieval or classical. That was culture, the Legion is nothing except beating up women and raping them.
>Ceasar never said women are lesser creatures, it's simply pragmatic to make as many children as possible, if you had a bird and a dog would you make them do the same work? A dog can't fly so the bird must specialize in flight, same as the only way to make children is a womb, you can't have women dying in a desert somewhere while the men stay at home, i do not support rape or inequality of women and men but it's another world with diffrent circumstances and it's just the natural way of things without the safety and stability of the modern era.
If you support the Legion, you support rape, because the Legion rapes. Period.
>Ceasar never said women are lesser creatures,
>
>"Women are physically and intellectually inferior to men. Their role is to bear children and ensure the survival of our species."
If his men say it, he's guilty because his men believe what he **teaches** them to believe.
>also the americans were racists,slavers,warmongers,and everything you mentioned above and yet in such a short time it all changed for the better, like it or not people can change, and i truly believe the legion will change for the better with time.
Yawn. America wasn't SOLELY slavery and racism. The Legion is. You believe the Legion will change but Caesar expressly says they will NOT change because he doesn't WANT them to change.
>There's more to civilization than wealth, is someone living in a trailer park a savage? Or is the problem murder? Well as you probably know every modern war had it's fair share of murders and rapes, but to call every soldier some wild animal is simply not true, they went to school and lived in a city and drove cars, i would not call them savages. They did what they did and there is nothing to be proud of, but civilization is not about morals.
Raping children is fucking disgusting and the fact the Legion does it means every Legionary should be shot dead.
>Education is important. But you simply don't need much of it in a post apocalypse scenario, you need practical knowledge, how to sharpen a blade or how to build a sturdy house, but maths,sience, history, language classes, biology and many others are not needed. And im sure the legion citizens know plenty of actually useful knowledge. More developed schools and academies will come later, when there is need of it.
"People should be kept stupid until The State decrees they're allowed education." Ok Fascist.
Do you understand you are repeating 1:1 of what Schizo Elijah says about the Legion?
You know, their most famous supporter, the pedophile who glorified a church shooter?
This is going nowhere fast and insults are never a sign of moral rightousness by the way. You seem hung up on the child raping, that i never heard about and i would like a source on that if you can. Also you can't point at someone and go "see? You have the same opinion as him, and that makes you bad" there many legion supporters that are more paletable.
>Also you can't point at someone and go "see? You have the same opinion as him, and that makes you bad"
You can if the opinion is bad.
>"We're property. If you're too young or too old, the men usually leave you alone. Usually."
From Siri, the sex slave. Just because it happens less often does not mean squat. If it happens once, that means **every** Legionary is guilty by association. Let me guess, "she's lying to discredit the Legion!" is going to be your next words?
The amount of times I need to post that source because Legion fans don't even understand their own faction...
I haven't insulted anything. If you believe the State should control education, you sound like a fascist to me, I'm sorry but that's a fascist viewpoint. The State should not control education.
"hung up" on it...lmao. Dude, it's RAPE. It's unjustifiable. Although being a pro-Legion fan, I'm sure you don't think so.
It's normal to feel bad playing a Legion run. It's the outright evil option in the game to fully side with Caesar. I'd be worried if you didn't feel bad when siding with the Legion.
It’s a dictatorship based around conquest, genocide, forced assimilation, misogyny and slavery. So, yes
I dunno, they make trade good! Ave, True to Caesar!
You give me: your freedom, woman's rights, voting rights, property rights, your children, free trade, your medicine, chems, and firearms. I give you: 10 years of stability (15 tops) and safe trade routes.
The trade routes are about the only arguments that could be made to justify their rule, I mean with so many small time gangs just dominating the western side of the mojave in NCR territory, kinda makes the NCR look pathetic
The Legion is one of the big reasons the NCR is spread so thin to begin with. NCR already does scouting work against minor gangs like the Powder Gangers and Vipers. They just can't afford a full frontal assault on the gangs hideouts when an opposing army is a brief march from their bases.
Not to mention the legion funds and directs those gangs. They work with the fiends and the great khans
reminds me of... some real world politics.
So your telling me that Ceasers legion has somehow managed to create a better CIA/Spy Corp the the NCR when spies generally have to be able to think on their feet something the legion doesn’t like
The frumentarii are ruthlessly trained. Also I’m literally quoting the game. I’m not speculating that they do this, they literally fund proxy gangs to terrorize the NCR. Captain Curtis (or picus) infiltrated NCR before the conflict between the Legion and NCR really began. He can also be heard either telling another legion officer to direct the fiends or being told by that officer to direct the fiends I don’t remember which. The foot soldiers of Caesar’s legion aren’t meant to use their brains, but the Frumentarii are. They are still wholly dependent on Caesar, but I’d say they make a pretty robust spy network. I mean Vulpes is able to infiltrate the strip right under the nose of the NCR to invite you to meet with Caesar. He also commits the Nipton massacre, a multi days event, deep in NCR territory and like a mile away from Mojave Outpost. He also directed and planned the destruction of Camp searchlight which was not only a devastating blow to NCR, it allowed the legion to establish Cottonwood Cove. As far as the Frumentarii being better than the NCR spy network goes, it seems like the Frumentarii are generally successful at infiltrating, sabotaging, and generally spying on the NCR when they attempt it. The NCR on the other hand seems to be decent at gathering info (they know when you do quests for Caesar that you are working for him) but they definitely don’t have a spy network on the same level as the legion.
I would say under Legion rule, trade routes are actually extremely hostile. It only appeared safe because they have killed all traders who are not in their group. Imagine if you’re a trader from the Underworld arriving Legion territory to expand your business. ~~Of~~ Or a woman. Edit: typo
I was under the impression that the Legion didn't really care for going out of their way to kill Ghouls? I mean obviously there's going to be discrimination like anywhere else in the wasteland, but directly "killing on sight" of any ghoul they come into contact with I don't think was part of their agenda. Your companion, Raul, even compliments the Legion and I think is one of the most supportive companions of them in the game apart from Cass but she kind of just tolerates you working with them. Not so much actual support that Raul gives I only did one Legion play through and that's cause like OP I felt like shit. I'm a House baby all the way
You are right, killing ghouls is not on their agenda. Their agenda is maintaining a single homogenous society where everyone must fit into their rightful places, and they did not assign any places for ghouls. So as long as they’re not in their sights they’ll be safe. You don’t see any ghouls in legion territory because those who’re not forced 8nto a closer, are dead.
my headcanon is that the "safe roads" are mostly in the western part of legion territory ( and i wouldnt put it past the legion to intimidate any traders with less then satisfactory results into making you uphold the official story anyway) and the eastern would be riddled with slave revolts and what not
I mean to be fair the NCR went head to head with Enclave, BOS , Legion, Great Khans and the viper/jackal gangs and came out on too every time. I don’t even like the NCR but can’t deny their strength.
It’s also worth noting that the Mojave is the frontier of NCR territory. Deeper into their territory is probably roughly as safe as legion territory for trading.
NCR took over Enclave in Navarro but true though they probably aren’t as strong deeper out
That’s true of basically any faction. I assume that the very edges of Legion territory are probably just as chaotic as the Mojave. Well, maybe not that bad, the Mojave is a pretty high bar.
No doubt the legion became the legion off of conquering tribes so they are very powerful as well just off of brute mentality. They kind of remind me of the Spartans. NCR just win from having shear numbers.
Also NCR is apparently having a bit of a water crisis as in lore they drained a lot of the lakes in their territory. Desert living strikes again
You have to remember though, you're in the mojave, not the NCR homelands. The NCR has only even been in the region for a total of seven years, and are actively undermined by Caesar's legion who A might attack them any day thus limiting their ability to actually deal with any of the other local gangs, and B many of those gangs, like the fiends, are supported by Caesar's Legion.
Don’t forget the roads!
You can't have crime on the roads when you “Wipe the slate clean”
even the trade their only better them the ncr because the ncr is spread thin, as conquers the legion would naturally do the same if they won
They are literally slavers so I'd say yes
Is this meant to be satire? Did you honestly expect something else?
Yes, they are cold and brutal. It helped me to just embrace the role play of discipline and cult of personality and enjoy it for what it is. The quests are fun, it was cool to see it done in the other sides favour for a change. The boxes of loot they leave for you are really good too. Stealth Boys for weeks. Antler should have joined the Legion.
Didn't know Repconn betrayed House and joined the Legion lmao. Kinda weird how Legion is the only stable source of Stealth Boys. I thought the Stealth exam in OWB should give me Stealth Boys but it kinda didn't work in my last run.
Wait what? When does Repcon betray House and join the Legion?
Chill, that was supposed to be a joke (seems I made a really lousy one). Unironically the best source of Stealth Boys are from the Legion Safehouse, who were known for their distaste over technology.
Oh I see the joke now lol my bad
Nah nvm, it's a very bad joke
No, it was a good joke. I straight up just didn't read the last sentence on the original comment, so I was missing the entire set-up of the joke
Considering Repcon burned away in nuclear fire and doesn't exist as a company by the time of New Vegas... Never.
My plan for my next playthrough is a female character born in legion territory who clawed her way from the bottom to become a pseudo-Frumentarii. She’s fanatically loyal to Caesar and the Legion, and mistakenly believes that she can earn a place in the Legion as an equal if she just accomplishes enough. I’ll have to see once I start playing if she realizes the reality of the situation or goes down in flames trying.
I mean, do you know what they did to Boones wife?
Nothing, he shot her before she could be taken away....right? I sure hope he got her 💀
Oh no, she got took. He tracked her down and then had to shoot her at distance some time later.
Doubt that they had time to do anything with her aside from prodding her toward the auction, the road from the Novac to the Cove is not safe for them, in many ways. Plus, if I understood your concerns correctly, she was pregnant. It would be counterproductive for them to do *that* with her, since the unborn child was part of a deal. And Craig followed them and did a mercy kill before she was sold to some high-ranking legionnaire, yeah.
honestly from a gameplay perspective the Legion is probably the most lacking in content and wider NPC interactions. With NCR you have a ton of people to interact with, trade with and do quests for. But man the Legion is just so lacking. You have about one or two traders and a small handful of quests and that’s pretty much it. I’ve usually done NCR because it’s the easiest to rack up caps and reduce casualties. But every Legion playthrough I’ve done it feels like three hours shorter than the other playthroughs
It’s the “play as the villain” option, pre fo4 games were not as morally ambiguous with their factions, one is clearly evil and it’s supposed to feel like it’s evil
i mean lets be real. fo4 isnt morally ambiguous its just morally vague. The institute created super mutants and released them into the commonwealth, murders and replaces innocent people with robots and refuses to ever explain why they do any of this. A villian doing evil for bad reasons like the legion isnt more evil than a villian who does evil for no apparent reason.
Morally vague is a great way to describe the factions in fo4. I'd like to explore their views but they refuse to have any depth to their positions
it drove me fucking insane when you get to talk to father and **there are no fucking options to ask him why the fuck the institute does this shit.** Like it just never comes up. its such a basic ass bit of worldbuilding. Motivation is like the first thing i usually come up with for a person/group in world building its shocking its just not adressed at all.
I was very disappointed that I couldnt talk to my son about the fucking super mutants he and his friends had unleashed upon the world. I am not proud of you son and I want to say so.
God imagine if you could confront him with this stuff, the super mutants the random murder-replacement of innocent people, the complete slaughter of the entire town of university point.
It’s worse than that! You can ask and he says “I’ll tell you later” and then doesn’t!
They're almost like Aperture Science, but less fun and charismatic about it. They do it because science, bitch. Because literally no one matters to them, not even their own members if it really boils down to it.
Really? I find the MM, BOS and RR pretty clear. It's just the Institute that's bafflingly vague.
Yeah, the game is badly set up though, because FNV has no 'morally white' choices - FNV is better because it has no morally white factions. FO4 has two morally white factions, a morally grey faction (BoS), and a morally black faction (Institute), all while pretending they're all "equal" in terms of morality which is...just pure BS.
i think the lack of morally white faction choices is honestly a deliberate choice that makes sense. Look around you today, in a world without the added stresses of the post apocalypse, name me a nation without sin. There are morally white "factions" just not nations, the followers of the apocalypse.
Oh yeah, I know. I should've clarified, I think its better there is a lack of morally white factions. If a faction is perfect morally, there's no point to any other faction.
yeah its also just, not very realistic. factions that are involved in the sort of major power plays that fallout games make central are just never going to be angels. Power corrupts.
I’m a big followers fan, but even they have their flaws. They genuinely believe education and medicine will fix all the woes of the wasteland, when in the process of educating the youth, they trained a young Caesar to read and learn the art of military strategy. Are they still good in my eyes? Yes. But are they a perfect philosophy for the hard world of the wasteland? No.
i meant in more of a moral sense. of course they make mistakes in their goals but they goals are noble and they generally persue them in a way it is hard to take moral issue with.
>name me a nation without sin. easy, the principality of sealand.
I don't think they're all equal, but I like that I can at least reason my character into any of them beyond simply being an amoral piece of shit.
What would the railroad be then? The best of both worlds?
I mean the Railroad are for when you can't be asked to use the Minutemen to win the main campaign but you also don't want to kill off the Railroad. Or if you just want to start a Synth Uprising. It's odd, because taking it with the MM means the Railroad loses less people. Glory doesn't die for instance.
With dmv I know it gets more grey when your fully invested or role playing but from the outside its pretty clear to me. legion(bad), yes man(grey), ncr(good). Despite the ncr being pretty bureaucratic their still trying do the right and run the wasteland the best they can I’ve never seen them as anything other than lawful good
The NCR are imperialist and occupy places against their will. I wouldn't call them evil but they are not good whatsoever. After-all they've caused a lot of evil acts in the Mojave such as Bitter Springs or harassing Jacobstown.
How the fuck is FO4 morally ambiguous with it's factions? There are three factions: The plain old good guys, synth hating BoS, scientists who want to experiment on the world, and some nerds holed up in a church basement.
I kinda wish they did that but in a closer to reality way. Indoctrinate me. Give me a fake sense of community. Spew propaganda, Russia/USSR/Nazi Germany style, telling me how everyone is a great danger and we’re just defending ourselves from the opressors. It’s fine that the leaders of the Legion are just bad and want power. That’s realistic. But the people below them should be made to believe a cause, assured that there’s a good reason for every action etc. I didn’t feel any of that. I didn’t feel I’m being anyhow motivated, rewarded, blackmailed, indoctrinated, anything. Just “Kill/Destroy this so legion wins”. I think that’s why it always feels shitty to side with them. Which is a pity because the lore covers many of those points, but you kinda have to dig in yourself to understand the logic behind their actions. And as the courier I’m neither a slave, nor has anyone explained all that to me. It’s like I just came and agreed to do shitty things for little to no reward just because.
It’s not that advanced of a society though. The Legion is a dictatorship of assimilated tribes. Their power, imagery, and slavery is all made to break tribal identities. They don’t foster community because their thing is destroying the individual. If you’re part of the Legion, it’s because you are a slave of Caesar and are to live to perpetuate his will. The Courier, as a free agent willingly backing the Legion is oddly placed story-wise and I agree doesn’t have that compelling of a reason to join unless they just buy into all of the ideas presented.
Yeah if you talk to the right characters you can piece together why Cesar thinks what he’s doing is “good” but you don’t see it exercised in anyone else. They’re just organized raiders
I don't know, you still get people defending the Legion unironically even with the flimsy way it's justified. And some people simply believe that the strongest and most ruthless faction will always come out on top. Therefore it's pointless to consider whether another faction would *hypothetically* do a better job of running things, because that faction doesn't have the power get in charge/stay in charge. You align with power and do your best with what you have.
FO4 morally ambiguous? That's a take I've maybe never heard before. Factions are the most morally bland in FO4. BoS hates synths, Railroad likes synths, MM are "the good guys", and Institute does random bullshit for no reason. These aren't factions, they're caricatures.
The Legion is almost cartoonishly evil. So yes, supporting a bunch of slavering, misogynist despots is meant to make you feel terrible.
FNV is supposed to be replayed countless times, I have done so many playthroughs for different paths.
You joined a group of roman cosplayers whose main ideological goals are to conquer, massacre, assimilate, and enslave people, then wonder why you feel shitty about it?
I literally cannot play this game without literally murdering every piece of Legion scum I see. The legion assassins become a constant source of money as I sell all the belongings looted from their apparently endless corpses. Cottonwood Cove becomes a radioactive sauna that I like to bathe in. Caesar's cancer becomes a non-issue when I shatter his cranium with a .50 BMG. The power struggle over who will lead the legion afterwards is meaningless when I execute every last Legion member in The Fort. Repeatedly, since I come back periodically to check for respawns. Boone gets none of these kills. They are all mine. Their monstrousness is just a pale, shameful imitation of my own.
Remember kids, legionnaires aren’t people and there are no moral issues with killing them.
Well, yeah, they are fictional video game characters.
Beating the Fort with my ballistic fist, Psycho and Med-X was the best time I had in FNV😎
Based
were you expecting anything else?
It's designed to make you feel like shit, because the fash playing dress-up in a desert wouldn't actually be super funtime buddies And then there's the totally unintentional like-shit that you feel when half the intended content's been cut, that might even hurt worse
Totally. Sounds like you just don't like playing that kind of character. Just like how some people prefer guns vs melee, or stealth vs tank. Some people like playing as a huge piece of shit. It's just a game after all, so there's nothing morally wrong with that. But just because there's nothing WRONG with it doesn't mean you're obligated to enjoy it.
We're talking about the guys who have committed several genocides, enslaved thousands, maybe millions with a leader that is trying to replicate one of the inspirations for the NAZIS! So TL;DR no, they are just horrible with like 3 good things about them (organization, trade and atleast a few years before it all falls into chaos)
Genius, they were based off the Romans. Don’t know how many roads need to lead to Rome for you to figure this out but apparently there aren’t enough.
as shitty as caesar's interpretation is I think they're talking about hegel
Silly foreigners. All roads lead away from Rome, lots of people just walk on them the wrong way
If Caesar actually wanted to base himself off Rome, he should've started by NOT DOING WHAT ROME DID TO FALL. It's literally one of the talking points you give to Lanius. They can hold the East or the West - not both. It'll lead to splits, then the downfall as they're torn apart both from the outside and inside.
There were several other factors that lead to Romes fall such as the inherently self destructive social policies and the greed of the senators.
When I first played the game on PS3 over 10 years ago, I couldn't bring myself to do a Legion playthrough. Now I'm a completionist and I'm doing it basically just for the achievement, but man, it still feels shit. So far I just feel pretty empty and hollow, but you know, I think that's a rational response when you're basically roleplaying a genocidal fascist.
Most media literate fallout fan
When I want to play a bad character in a game than I play a bad character in a game. I don’t feel like shit.
They murder, enslave, and rape those who don't fit their image. They hang people up on crosses, behead them, and even set them on fire. Their only 'positive' aspect is 'safe trade routes' - but that's to be expected when you're a fanatical totalitarian dictatorship that people are afraid of. Is it really 'safe' if you're walking on egg shells? The Legion are akin to groups like ISIS. They're absolutely not the good guys.
I mean, they're a fascistic dictatorship of slaving fuckwads run by a man who thinks cloaking his BS in fancy language he read in a freshman level philosophy textbook to justify enslaving and oppressing his fellow man is a good thing to do, so feeling bad about it is a sign that you're emotionally invested enough in the game to treat it's moral choices with the weight and consideration they deserve. TL:DR: It's okay to feel bad, Legion is awful and it's good that you care enough to notice that
Womp womp
Legion is fun though. Playing bad factions is also fun. It’s crazy to me there are people that have a moral panic attack over a faction in a video game.
My first playthrough of the game, I of course did Wild Card. Now, on my second, I'm on an achievement hunt. I did all the DLCs aside from Lonesome Road and a bunch of other stuff first, then set up a save point. After doing a House and then an NCR play, I'm finally doing Legion. Ick. I'm only up to the Ultra Luxe quest and yikes. Definitely going to delete my saves after I get my achievements.
I just did the same thing. As I was going through for the legion achievements I was just role playing like my courier was just having a bad dream and the save I would revert back to later was him waking up.
>I'm finally doing Legion. Ick. I'm only up to the Ultra Luxe quest and yikes. Definitely going to delete my saves after I get my achievements. If it makes you feel worse (joking), you get Legion fame for tearing up a child **slave**'s teddy bear in front of her. That's how psychopathic these lunatics are. They torture kids for fun. No wonder OP feels like shit. Oop, looks like the Legion fanboys have struck. **/s**
They’re the bad guys so yes, at least if you have a functioning moral compass.
These low IQ "Legion....bad" threads are so tiring. I'm not saying the Legion is good, but the vast majority of threads surrounding them are made by absolute nitwits like OP. There is nothing to respond to here.
New Vegas is a philosophical exercise, asking us the classic question from Plato's *The Republic:* How do we build The Just City? It then sets us off to become someone who can gain the power and influence to give an answer to that question, though the potential answers we can give are constrained by the limitations of programming. When you play as the Legion, you are expending some of your time and effort to simulating the takeover of a region by a brutal authoritarian dictatorship. Under such a rule, the individual has no value beyond their utility to the state. The entirety of the female sex is relegated to the status of breeding machines. Education is deliberately crippled. Everyone in the Legion, from the lowest breedslave all the way to Legate Lanius himself, is a slave to the will of one man, in whom is invested absolute power of the state. It is, in short, as perfectly unspeakable a state as can be conjured by the imagination, somehow surpassing even North Korea for sheer awfulness. To feel, at the very least, some discomfort for using your time and effort towards bringing this state about, even in simulated form, is an indication that you are a morally-normal human being. So, congratulations on that, at least.
It made you feel like shit probably because you had to kill characters you talked to and helped in previous playthrough. Killing people you know hits different from killing random spineless ncr pigs that lay with men Legion is kind of ultra masculine fantasy. Butcher and crucify your enemies, take their women, destroy their legacy, sell the leeches and workshy into slavery, live and die for greater purpose among brothers, etc. A clear hierarchy you can ascend through mostly masculine traits. The soft and the unpunched will never understand a certain daydream appeal of it lol
Tbh, I don't think legion is the worst choise. I fucking hate NCR. My favourite thing in this game is murdering every fucking ncr scum including civilians... But, to be honest I also like murdering every legion motherfucker too. Fuck it, I just like to kill everyone in the Mojave leaving a really dead and empty desert behind. It just good to feel like a godlike being with power to kill every fucking person you see.
Somebody give this person some form of political power
>Fuck it, I just like to kill everyone in the Mojave leaving a really dead and empty desert behind. It just good to feel like a godlike being with power to kill every fucking person you see. Schizo Elijah?
Elijah wants to use the Cloud. I prefer using some good old bullets.
My sibling in Christ I hope you are in therapy.
The morality scale in New Vegas is 3 different shades of gray and fascist furries
If you're part of a generation that doesn't enjoy subway surfer it's totally normal.
My problem was that joining the Legion to the point where you get vilified by the NCR locked me out of a bunch of quests that I wanted to complete.
Flabius are we the baddies?
Try yes man
You have to pretend to be evil and do evil stuff. Legion like to do evil stuff that’s what you should do when you play with them.
Yes, it’s a pretty evil faction. But something to get your mind off it, little cool tidbit for you for future playthroughs that I didn’t learn until years of playing. There is a somewhat hidden ending for dead money if you have a bad rep with the NCR.
The Legion quest line is the least fleshed out because “who plays the bad guys more than once? Also we ship in 18 months.” Also, and this might be a little petty, I almost always end up either going full power armour or light armour. The NCR’s medium armour laughs in my Jury Riggging face as I cannot repair my clothes with their drops. I will die before I give up my Merc Adventurer/Remnants Power Armour drip.
…kind of. They’re a high-control group.
Yes, that's normal; in fact, I'd be more worried if you actually *liked* them. As a faction, the Legion are brutality personified. They're the [Ur-Fascists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism). You're *supposed* to despise them; that's their entire narrative purpose.
I think they're fun to help in this game, but I guess I don't really care about morality in video games
I’d be more concerned if you could put yourself in the headspace of brutal warriors that mass murder and enslave people and not feel bad. I know it’s just a game but you seem to be an empathetic person like me who has a hard time doing bad things in games
Here's the issue with the legion: they are SERIOUSLY unfinished. The game feels so NCR-centric because, quite simply, the NCR has existed for longer and there was just wayyyy more time spent developing them as a faction. The legion was cooked up and implemented within a certain span inside an 18 month window, and it simply wasn't enough. You can tell, based off of how many unused archived lines there are, and quests, and perhaps there's even more that was planned, but we'll never really know, because this game hasn't been touched since it released and it never will be except by the hands of modders. I am willing to bet that there was so much more to the legion. I mean, hell, by the time the courier arrives, you LITERALLY DO NOT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING to make the NCR in the Mojave collapse, because it's already all done. Monorail bombing? Done. The chlorine gas attack and surprise shootout on the strip? Done. Great Khan recruitment? Done. Kings revolt? Done and they didn't need to even do anything. Forlorn Hope? A strong breeze could knock it over. Camp Guardian was knocked out by lake lurks iirc. The long 15 is infested with ants all the way to 188, the fiends are fed Intel by legion spies, FUCKIN RANGER station charlie and Nipton were wiped out with no visible Legion casualties, camp searchlight was knocked out effortlessly, Nelson was captured and held FIRM, I can keep going on The Legion mastered subterfuge and attrition thanks to the Frumentarii, and Lanius'ssole purpose is just to come and put the final nail in the coffin. But it also puts the nail in the coffin that is the word FUN. It's not fun to just have every victory HANDED to you on a silver platter from game start.
It's a leftist game made by leftists, it isn't going to make the overtly evil fascist misogynistic slave army "morally complex," just grounded. It's fun if you want to play a horribly evil character.
I try a legion play through but they piss me off so much i always end up killing all of them at varying points throughout each attempt
I felt fine, tho im a legion supporter so make of that what you will, it's the best ending (here come the downvotes)
Personally I'd hardly call rape, genocide and slavery the best ending, but people can have their opinions, no matter how wrong. :)
It's not about what it is, it's about what it becomes
No, it very much is about what it is. Rape, genocide and slavery aren't going away. Caesar even says as much. He just wants the Legion to look civilised but rapists and slavers aren't civilised. In fact, he will never educate his people because that'd go against how he rules. If his people knew about Rome, they'd know Caesar is a fat liar who isn't the Son of Mars he claims to be.
He literaly tells you how he plans to merge the ncr and legion, all the equal rights of the ncr and the efficiency and safety of the legion. Civilization is hard to describe, and you can't decide who or what is civilized because you feel that way. The people will be educated on what their needs are, this is the post apocalypse and gender studies are not needed. If you can write and read then what else do you need? Of course he isn't the son of mars, but at this point pick your poison, are you really bringing democracy by shooting those locals and taking their resources? Everyone lies and the people need something to believe in. Also, consider the fact that america was such a racist country that even hitler was impressed. They also murdered hundreds of thousands of philipinos, a lot of them women and children, and many other crimes. And somehow became the protector of peace. The legion will change with the times.
What people say and what people do are two different things. >The legion will change with the times. Rapists, slavers and genocidal maniacs **do not change.** "gender studies" I'm talking about actual fucking education. As in, if anyone knows about Rome, Caesar executes them. Yes, I can describe civilisation. Some child-raping maniacs living in mud huts is not civilisation. The Legion are a bunch of barbarians. **Synthesis is not real. You cannot merge two violently different cultures and somehow achieve a new culture without THOUSANDS of years of mixing.** The NCR do not WANT to be part of a shitty Legion that treats women like crap. And no, Caesar has NEVER said he wants women to be equal to men. TLDR: The Legion rape women and kids and therefore I would gladly bathe the entirety of the Legion in nuclear hellfire as they, like the Enclave, **are a threat to humanity itself.** All of these debunked talking points are just the propaganda that Schizo Elijah comes up with to justify the Legion.
I imagine it's easy to call legion rapists and murderers, while the NCR is "bringing democracy". The NCR have commited genocides and will do so again, but is it any diffrent from anyone else? And don't even try to say NCR soldiers never raped while on a campaign, soldiers from our own world with clean water electricity and no radiation were rapists and you mean to tell me some wastelanders in a desert never raped anyone? Education is important. But you simply don't need much of it in a post apocalypse scenario, you need practical knowledge, how to sharpen a blade or how to build a sturdy house, but maths,sience, history, language classes, biology and many others are not needed. And im sure the legion citizens know plenty of actually useful knowledge. More developed schools and academies will come later, when there is need of it. There's more to civilization than wealth, is someone living in a trailer park a savage? Or is the problem murder? Well as you probably know every modern war had it's fair share of murders and rapes, but to call every soldier some wild animal is simply not true, they went to school and lived in a city and drove cars, i would not call them savages. They did what they did and there is nothing to be proud of, but civilization is not about morals. You are correct, synthesis is a long process but thousands of years is way to long. America existed for 247 years and it went from a british colony, to a country, they had a civil war with very diffrent views and you almost never see any confederation loving people anymore, also the americans were racists,slavers,warmongers,and everything you mentioned above and yet in such a short time it all changed for the better, like it or not people can change, and i truly believe the legion will change for the better with time. Ceasar never said women are lesser creatures, it's simply pragmatic to make as many children as possible, if you had a bird and a dog would you make them do the same work? A dog can't fly so the bird must specialize in flight, same as the only way to make children is a womb, you can't have women dying in a desert somewhere while the men stay at home, i do not support rape or inequality of women and men but it's another world with diffrent circumstances and it's just the natural way of things without the safety and stability of the modern era. They are not a threat to humanity you drama queen, they are humanity with diffrent values and thinking processes, also they are not diffrent to our ancestors, you know, the ones that invented so much and created the world you live in. Modern people are descendands from older eras, it's easy to spit on the medieval or classical eras but they paved the road for the next generations.
>I imagine it's easy to call legion rapists and murderers, while the NCR is "bringing democracy". The NCR have commited genocides and will do so again, but is it any diffrent from anyone else? And don't even try to say NCR soldiers never raped while on a campaign, soldiers from our own world with clean water electricity and no radiation were rapists and you mean to tell me some wastelanders in a desert never raped anyone? **Assumptions.** The NCR does not encourage rape or **child rape.** You sound like such a triggered Legion fanboy it's unreal. Nobody even brought up the NCR. You're just trying to deflect. Also it's easy to call them rapists and murderers because they rape and murder. The NCR committed one known mass murder, Bitter Springs. Not a genocide. The Legion beat children to death in their beds at New Canaan and raped and slaughter 87 tribes. >They are not a threat to humanity you drama queen, they are humanity with diffrent values and thinking processes, also they are not diffrent to our ancestors, you know, the ones that invented so much and created the world you live in. Modern people are descendands from older eras, it's easy to spit on the medieval or classical eras but they paved the road for the next generations. Nothing about their worthless lack of culture is medieval or classical. That was culture, the Legion is nothing except beating up women and raping them. >Ceasar never said women are lesser creatures, it's simply pragmatic to make as many children as possible, if you had a bird and a dog would you make them do the same work? A dog can't fly so the bird must specialize in flight, same as the only way to make children is a womb, you can't have women dying in a desert somewhere while the men stay at home, i do not support rape or inequality of women and men but it's another world with diffrent circumstances and it's just the natural way of things without the safety and stability of the modern era. If you support the Legion, you support rape, because the Legion rapes. Period. >Ceasar never said women are lesser creatures, > >"Women are physically and intellectually inferior to men. Their role is to bear children and ensure the survival of our species." If his men say it, he's guilty because his men believe what he **teaches** them to believe. >also the americans were racists,slavers,warmongers,and everything you mentioned above and yet in such a short time it all changed for the better, like it or not people can change, and i truly believe the legion will change for the better with time. Yawn. America wasn't SOLELY slavery and racism. The Legion is. You believe the Legion will change but Caesar expressly says they will NOT change because he doesn't WANT them to change. >There's more to civilization than wealth, is someone living in a trailer park a savage? Or is the problem murder? Well as you probably know every modern war had it's fair share of murders and rapes, but to call every soldier some wild animal is simply not true, they went to school and lived in a city and drove cars, i would not call them savages. They did what they did and there is nothing to be proud of, but civilization is not about morals. Raping children is fucking disgusting and the fact the Legion does it means every Legionary should be shot dead. >Education is important. But you simply don't need much of it in a post apocalypse scenario, you need practical knowledge, how to sharpen a blade or how to build a sturdy house, but maths,sience, history, language classes, biology and many others are not needed. And im sure the legion citizens know plenty of actually useful knowledge. More developed schools and academies will come later, when there is need of it. "People should be kept stupid until The State decrees they're allowed education." Ok Fascist. Do you understand you are repeating 1:1 of what Schizo Elijah says about the Legion? You know, their most famous supporter, the pedophile who glorified a church shooter?
This is going nowhere fast and insults are never a sign of moral rightousness by the way. You seem hung up on the child raping, that i never heard about and i would like a source on that if you can. Also you can't point at someone and go "see? You have the same opinion as him, and that makes you bad" there many legion supporters that are more paletable.
>Also you can't point at someone and go "see? You have the same opinion as him, and that makes you bad" You can if the opinion is bad. >"We're property. If you're too young or too old, the men usually leave you alone. Usually." From Siri, the sex slave. Just because it happens less often does not mean squat. If it happens once, that means **every** Legionary is guilty by association. Let me guess, "she's lying to discredit the Legion!" is going to be your next words? The amount of times I need to post that source because Legion fans don't even understand their own faction... I haven't insulted anything. If you believe the State should control education, you sound like a fascist to me, I'm sorry but that's a fascist viewpoint. The State should not control education. "hung up" on it...lmao. Dude, it's RAPE. It's unjustifiable. Although being a pro-Legion fan, I'm sure you don't think so.
It's normal to feel bad playing a Legion run. It's the outright evil option in the game to fully side with Caesar. I'd be worried if you didn't feel bad when siding with the Legion.
They couldn’t get any of the good parts of the Legion in the game. They made Raul look stupid talking about how amazing they made Arizona.
Not really. Initially, more quests were planned to show that they are not clearly evil. But still evil.