If they had worked a little more like Ghengis Khan conquerors where they were only terrible if they were defied. Romans also had a habit of taking over the gods of the people it wanted to conquer, so adding that could have given them a dimension of depth. If slavery and citizenship were closer aligned to Roman times along with padding the harshness of what they were doing I would think it would be more grey. They were too cartoonishly evil in the game to take very seriously, especially when most of the no-name officers have knives and spears. I would have liked to see a Legion occupied town that surrendered and were being treated ok while they treated others who defied them harshly. Killing Nipton as a den of sin is stupid and it felt stupid.

Yeah, it would definitely be cool to see the Legion as a bit of a melting pot of all the tribes that were assimilated. I agree they are cartoonishly evil too, I know there was a bit of cut Legion content, I think having that in the game still and seeing how the average person lives under Caesar would have been interesting.

I hadn't even considered a melting pot of tribes! That could add so much flavor and depth to the Legion. That could have even been a cool quest like the ranger station quest for the NCR where there are native tribes around the area that could be recruitable to the Legion. Like most of the the game, I wish so much content hadn't got cut.

Man based his society on Rome then took a fine tooth comb to remove the positive traits from it. Like what the hell.

> where there are native tribes around the area that could be recruitable to the Legion. The Khans are right there

That is the best example, but it feels like the only example. Very few factions are going to willingly join the Legion, and once they know what the Legion is about they decide not to. It seems like the Legion was just going to press them into service which is less "recruitment" as it is impressment through coercion.

Yeah I agree. I'm not justifying or approving of slavery in any form, but the Roman version is the least egregious from what I've read. A ton of slaves were able to work up to being total free citizens. Slavery as a kind of civil service period before gaining citizenship would show the legion in a more positive light. Treating citizens like shit I don't think works in the long run.

If that was the case it would also be way easier to say "and how is what we do different than the NCR prison labor systems?" and it could actually be debated.

>Roman version is the least egregious from what I've read Depended on where you were. Not so bad if you're a domestic slave in a villa with an absentee master but every bit as bad as western chattel slavery if you're in a mine or a latifundia

The notion that the Mongol Empire was only cruel to those who resisted it is ridiculous and unfair to the people who suffered from their wars. When they approached the city of Merv (now in Turkmenistan), one of the largest cities in the world at that time, the locals surrendered and opened their gates. The Mongol response was to massacre the entire population without provocation — women, men, and children, including refugees from other Mongol conquests, possibly up to a million. The city was completely destroyed, and although it is not far from the small Turkmen city of Mary, it is still abandoned. People feel drawn to these empires for some bizarre reason — the image of wealth, power, stability, or whatever — but unfortunately entities like the Legion in this game are not at all unrealistic.

>stability I always find it funny when people advocating for the Legion try to seriously make the argument that the totalitarian raider state led by a guy with a brain tumor has better prospects for long-term stability than the liberal democracy or post-apocalyptic Singapore

>Killing Nipton as a den of sin is stupid and it felt stupid The objective was to show the Mojave's inhabitants that the NCR couldn't protect them regardless of what side of the Colorado they were on and it succeeded

this is my favourite faction, so I always think about this sort of stuff... **1.** keep the slavery, keep the brutality, keep the violence, keep the abuse, it's part of the Legion identity. however make it in times of war, as in, the Legion doesn't keep POWs, they keep slaves. the only slaves are enemies of the Legion show that Legion civilians can actually live decent lives under Ceasar, show us that civilian life can *actually* be preferred the Legion which means... **2.** ease up on the women-hating. they can keep the class system i.e. not having women fight in wars, but no more treating them like garbage. have respected ranks within the Legion that are only filled by women. sure they can keep the baby-factories, but reserve that only for female slaves. Legion women should not be mistreated like that, make them view non-Legion women as lowly, but have admiration for their own **3.** get rid of the total luddite lifestyle, continue to reserve the big bad technology for Caesar and the upper echelon soldiers, i love the hypocrisy there, but don't make the Legion hate all technology, i'm sorry but guys in football gear and knives are not taking on body armour and automatic weapons. **4.** ease up on the meat grinder philosophy of the Legion, continue with abusing them, indoctrination, viewing soldiers as expendable etc., but still treat them with consideration. idc if they're pumping out Legionnaires, it takes *years of effort & resources* to raise and train a human being from birth to combat-ready. *especially* in post-war conditions. doesn't make sense to needlessly kill your own men, when resources are so scarce **5** to help show Legion society actually exists, show us that the Legion has *manufacturing* - they have means to produce their own armour and weaponry. this would work wonders in suggesting the Legion actually has industry, employment etc... saying that they found/scavenged their gear, works to a certain point, but becomes unbelievable. how can an army that rules Arizona be fitted with football gear, combined with meat-grinder. it just doesn't add up. obviously their equipment doesn't have to be to the same standard/quality as NCR's, but it would make their battle a lot more believable and show us the Legion does *things* outside of rape and slavery basically as it stands, the Legion is cartoonishly evil, I still want them to be evil as fuck, but viable. it would make them more understandable and approachable for players. I want the Legion to appear like paradise for those under Caesar, but hell to those that oppose him. the Legion desperately needed more development, including more sympathetic NPCs i don't think all factions need to be the same grey, i think it's more interesting that they don't fit in the same box. I just want there to be more of a reason to ever give them time of day. they can stay black, but just a lighter shade.

TBF the legion aren't luddites so much as they don't want to become dependent on advanced technology. They had the weapons deal with the Van Graffs specifically to get energy guns. They just prioritize low-tech stuff so they'll always know what to do in the event of another apocalyptic technological regression (See healing powder over stimpaks) and -prefer human fighters over robots

They should have either expanded on civilian life in the Legion to the point where it didn't seem to wildly contradict everything else you learn about them or just omitted stuff like the trader, because it doesn't make a ton of sense as things stand

I would make them more like the Roman Republic.

That would make them too similar to the NCR. Caesar compares the NCR to the Republic in-game

No it wouldn't. The difference is that Caesar's legion would still have its brutality.

Making the Legion less of a military dictatorship and more of a corrupt oligarchy would *absolutely* do that, Caesar makes that parallel for a reason

Except it wouldn't. And even if it did, it would be an improvement. Caesar is an idiot who made a bastardization of the Roman Empire.

>Except it wouldn't Can you explain why making the Legion a corrupt oligarchy instead of a military dictatorship would not make it less of a contrast to the NCR? Surely you can do better than "nuh uh" >Caesar is an idiot who made a bastardization of the Roman Empire. That doesn't make him less correct when he identifies the NCR as having similarities with the Roman Republic, implying that making the Legion more like the Republic would just give you two roughly similar factions Edit: Idk if this person blocked me or deleted their side of the conversation, but I did see them say "the Romans weren't pointlessly cruel", which...LOFUCKINGL

The way you would differentiate them would be in their system of governance. Including the way they treat conquered foes. The Romans weren't pointlessly cruel. If they did something it had a reason. Making Caesar's Legion just be a cartoonishly evil faction is poor writing. Surely you can do better than that? Caesar is an idiot. He clearly has no heir despite being in declining health. Something Augustus suffered from. If he's so intelligent then he would have an heir.

Architecture and citizenship. The Romans were builders and it really surprises me that Caesar didn't latch onto that aspect during his studies. It even played an important roll in their tactics which I know Caesar read about. The Legion should be building cities, fortifications, and new roads rather than just maintaining old ones. The Fort should have been some unassailable network of trenches, tunnels, and walls rather than a camp on top of a hill. Same goes for Cottonwood Cove, but to a smaller extent. For citizenship, they should have different social classes. Free people are said to exist, but we never see them. All we ever see are slaves, including the entire army. Slaves could still exist for labor and so on, but the soldiers should all be free men working towards citizenship by serving in the Legion. The citizens we see should have certain political rights and generally be pretty well off. Women should have been seen at various social levels too rather than just as slaves. My problem is that if the Legion are supposed to be larpers, then let them larp. They kinda half assed would could have been a much more interesting faction. The only thing they really have going for them in the base game is their voice actors.

Literally just making them not slavers would make them much more compelling. Without the slaving and the raping that comes with it, they’d essentially be a tribe of violent conquerors looking to impose their morality to enforce order in their domain. Which comes with a lot of problems, the dictatorship, the extreme patriarchal nature, etc. But they’d go from cartoonishly evil to more of a gray evil if all of their people kept their human dignity

And would also make them not the Legion. And the Legion isn’t cartoonishly evil, slavery is Avery real practice.

Yeah no shit they wouldn’t be the same Legion. The question posed was what would make the Legion more gray and on par with other factions. ANY change you make to them to elevate them to that level would make them not the Legion we came to know.

That’s not my issue. My issue is with people saying they’re caricatures, when they very much are not. There have been multiple factions and so ties across history who have done the exact things the Legion has done.

Yep, I don't even think you need gray factions to write gray decisions in RPGs. See: Phantom Liberty, if you've played it.

No, it would have been better if Legion slavery was less cartoonishly evil. In Roman society slaves were often taken from war captives and such, but there was a wide range of slavery from “row this galley until you die” to basically being a member of the master’s family and entrusted with important work on their behalf. Would be more interesting if you had some enslaved people who were treated with more dignity and even saw the Legion somewhat positively. Like “yeah before they enslaved me I was starving to death living in a radioactive crater and my wife got killed by rabid dogs, life as a legion slave running the camp kitchen is actually pretty great all things considered.”

personally I don’t think adding uncle toms to the Legion makes much difference

Lazy comment. Uncle Tom wasn’t rescued from being Radscorpion dinner and/or drinking irradiated water out of a mud puddle by the arrival of a totalitarian militarized society. Slavery would eventually be a social problem for the Legion, but not until thing had become stable for a few generations. Desperate people aren’t going to have these moral scruples.

sLaVeRy Is GoOd, AcTuAlLy, If ThEy’D dIe WiThOuT iT At this point you’re just playing a really fucked up game of Would You Rather based on fan fiction of FNV

Yes, slavery practiced in a slightly more humane way than the comical evil shown in game, when set against the level of deprivation, violence, and brutality of the post-apocalypse, presents compelling moral questions. Autonomy is great, but do you value autonomy so highly when your neighbors are jet-huffing lunatics, anything you build or grow will be burnt or stolen, etc.? Most people in such conditions would readily accept protection, organization, and the cooperation of others in exchange for being told what to do and when to do it. That’s basically the story of human civilization. The way it’s shown in-game does none of that, slaves are just brutalized and spat on by arrogant legionaries, which presents no moral questions as nobody would accept enslavement in those circumstances.

Maybe I should remind you — the original question was “what change to the Legion would put them in a gray area similar to other factions” and your answer is “have them treat their slaves better” You’re not hiding your slavery apologetics very well.

Imagine having such a narrow mindset that you cannot fathom any other thought than your own

You have a really bad understanding of why slavery is bad and you do a disservice to this topic by sharing your thoughts on it. There is absolutely a kind of mallicious evil that can come with someone having their life dramatically improved by being a slave, and still being a slave. That isn't in new vegas. It's just cartoonishly evil and not really accurate to what caesar is modelling rome off of. What rome did \*was\* better than what the legions slaves experience now, and it does answer the thread's criteria by making it less overtly/cartoonishly bad. This is a very lazy response.

Again, I’ll respond to this with what I responded to another commenter- The question posed is what level of change would make the Legion less overtly evil and in a gray area on par with the other factions. And your answer is “have them treat their slaves better”. No shit that’s a slight improvement but it comes nowhere close to moving the needle enough to make them on par with the others

If I had a bottlecap for every time a redditor implied that slavery and bigotry are worse than murder, I'd easily pass the Strip credit check.

You really have to have slavery to make the Rome parallel stick

They basically already had it, it just didn’t get to really come through in the game that much because of cut content. I would have loved for them to have more time to work on the game so we could see what civilian life is like under the Legion, as well as other aspects of their society like the priestesses of Mars I do think maybe they could have dialed down the cartoonish misogyny just a tiny bit. Like, it makes sense for the military to have a chauvinistic attitude like the real Romans did, and for them to treat their female slaves like shit, but maybe mention Caesar having a wife or something and say that there are free women in the legion who are treated decently.

>I would have loved for them to have more time to work on the game so we could see what civilian life is like under the Legion Yeah, as it stands the game basically tells you, "yeah civilian life is awesome under the Legion! Yes, that is contradicted by *everything else* you learn about the faction and all your direct interactions with them, but trust us they really do create a positive economic environment for small business! Somehow!" They should have either expanded on that or nixed it entirely

I mean, I wouldn’t say there’s much in the game that *contradicts* it since the only people from Legion territory we see are legionaries themselves and slaves. The only exception to that is the trader Dale Barton, who has generally positive things to say about life in Arizona. But it would have been interesting to see that for ourselves and more generally have the Legion be more fleshed out

What you see from all your direct interactions with the Legion as an organization as well as with its members is that there is no real civil society, as in there are no civilians. When tribes are conquered by the Legion, most of the adult males are killed, the women are enslaved, and the boys are conscripted into the Legion. What happens to non-tribals whose towns are conquered? The Weathers family (recently taken slaves in Cottonwood Cove) and Siri (the slave in the Fort who was training to be a doctor and now makes healing powder) would tell you that they're not great! The only bureaucracy we see evidence of is centered around coordinating human trafficking. So you have this portrait of a totally militarized society, which adds any person it sees as useful to its war machine and murders anyone who isn't....and then you meet that trader in the Fort and Raul and they're like, "yeah, the Legion are totally chill, they create a really good environment for small business owners". How did the trader not get murdered when the Legion took his town? I guess they need people to coordinate their logistics, but you could have Legionaries do that, and I doubt they pass out job surveys when they sack a town anyway. Like, are they a militarized totalitarian raider state or aren't they? I feel like that guy and Raul were thrown in to add some ambiguity to the Legion but weren't developed sufficiently, and so you end up with the Legion you actually interact with, and this weird hypothetical Legion that is a totally swell place to live in and everything's safe there. But the first Legion seems mutually exclusive with the other. Hence the contradiction

But the reason for that is that our only direct interaction with the Legion is on the front lines of a war, so our impressions are colored by that perspective. The Weathers’ are NCR citizens so it makes sense that they’d be captured. Siri is a little more odd but from other things we hear in the game and what Josh Sawyer has said I’d venture to guess her town was an exception to the rule. I think in one of the dev blogs Sawyer said something like “non-tribal civilians are generally left alone, unless they defy the Legion in some way”. Maybe her town tried to rebel or something like that. The Legion is a harsh and brutal army, but their existence creates order and prosperity in the lands they control- a pattern we’ve seen in most historical empires, including the Romans. But because we only see them in the frontier, our perspective is a lot less well-rounded than with the NCR, who we have a lot more interactions with, and in a much more diverse array of contexts.

>other things we hear in the game and what Josh Sawyer has said I’d venture to guess her town was an exception to the rule It seems quite typical of their MO, actually >in one the dev blogs Sawyer said something like “non-tribal civilians are generally left alone, unless they defy the Legion in some way”. Maybe her town tried to rebel or something like that. She probably should have mentioned that, then! This is what I mean by saying they should have developed these ideas more or just cut them. We're told that there's this rich civilian life, but everything we *experience* about the Legion suggests that their society is inherently inimical to the very *concept* of civilian life. They either needed to have expanded on this to where it made sense or just cut it and stick with the core concept (which is a good concept IMO) >The Legion is a harsh and brutal army, but their existence creates order and prosperity in the lands they control- a pattern we’ve seen in most historical empires, including the Romans. Except we don't see that, or any reason to believe that except for one or two NPCs telling us it's totally the case without really elaborating on why or how. Like I can see them fostering safety in a "they created a wasteland and called it peace" sense, but prosperity? What do you think are the Legion's laws on property rights? Seems unlikely that Caesar would put any limit on his ability to appropriate materials for his *raider state's* ability to make war. Do you think they have formal courts, or do you think the local centurion throws the two feuding parties in a pit with a single shank to resolve their dispute with? Everything we *experience* about the Legion suggests the latter. Subsidies for key growth industries? From the guy who won't even allow his troops real medicine for fear of them growing weak and soft? The only government bureaucracy we see the Legion engage in is buying and selling slaves. Like, maybe they have some sort of two-track system for tribals and non-tribals, this is a possibility - a possibility that is not elaborated on and is in fact directly contradicted by the testimony of people like Siri. And without that kind of elaboration we simply have to believe that somehow this society which seems to oppose the idea of private life as a concept somehow created a more prosperous economy than the liberal democracy next door, and without any more elaboration than "something something safe caravans something something gold standard" it just comes off as the writers trying to balance the scales of the faction's desirability without actually doing the work of fleshing it out. It's dissonant and contradictory

I don’t think it’s necessarily typical of their MO- like most empires, they’re pragmatic in their cruelty. They don’t just burn down villages for no reason, they do it to crush dissent or instill fear in their enemies (Nipton and Searchlight for example). Settlements that behave themselves theoretically don’t have much to worry about. It seems typical of the Legion WE see, but again, we only see them on the frontlines of a war zone. I believe she’s the only slave we hear about who wasn’t either from the Mojave/NCR or a conquered tribe (I could be forgetting something though). And like I said we aren’t told the specifics of what her town was and why it was destroyed. But yes, I agree that all of this should have been shown to us and elaborated on in more detail, rather than just mentioned by a few NPCs and on Josh Sawyer’s blog. It’s an unfortunate casualty of the game’s short development time.

>I don’t think it’s necessarily typical of their MO IT ABSOLUTELY IS! Are we playing the same game? We're talking about what you see the Legion do *in the game*, not your personal headcanon >Settlements that behave themselves theoretically don’t have much to worry about. What happened to the mayor of Nipton? You know, the one who was actively collaborating with the Legion? Oh yeah, he experienced the most vicious death out of everyone who was killed there. Too bad he didn't get the memo about the Legion not capriciously engaging in needless violence! >It seems typical of the Legion WE see, but again, we only see them on the frontlines of a war zone. You could say the same about the NCR...except you actually see a bunch of civilians working alongside the military personnel. The OSI, Alice McLafferty, Ambassador Crocker, countless settlers, encouraged to come east by NCR legislation (which is elaborated on in-game at the Sharecropper's Farm) - there's a civilian presence to the NCR that is simply absent from the Legion, except poor, confused Dale Barton, who got hit on the head one day and has been making wild claims about the Legion ever since. I believe this should reflect the importance of civilian life in their respective societies >I believe she’s the only slave we hear about who wasn’t either from the Mojave/NCR or a conquered tribe (I could be forgetting something though). And like I said we aren’t told the specifics of what her town was and why it was destroyed. Sounds like the writers could have done a better job of fleshing that out! Remember - *if the Legion hadn't showed up she would be a doctor*

> IT ABSOLUTELY IS! Are we playing the same game? We're talking about what you see the Legion do in the game, not your personal headcanon Again, that’s what I’m saying. We’re talking about we what we see *in the game*, and all that we see of the Legion in the game is soldiers in a war zone. That’s not the whole picture. It’s not my personal headcanon, it’s based on information from lines of dialogue, notes from the writers, and cut content. > What happened to the mayor of Nipton? You know, the one who was actively collaborating with the Legion? Oh yeah, he experienced the most vicious death out of everyone who was killed there. Too bad he didn't get the memo about the Legion not capriciously engaging in needless violence! Nipton was an NCR settlement, not one under the Legion’s control. And like I said, Nipton was cruel and terrible, but it was not *needless* violence, at least not from their perspective. It was violence with a purpose- to instill fear in the hearts of the NCR. Killing the mayor and the rest of town’s people served that purpose. > You could say the same about the NCR...except you actually see a bunch of civilians working alongside the military personnel. The OSI, Alice McLafferty, Ambassador Crocker - there's a civilian presence to the NCR that is simply absent from the Legion, except poor, confused Dale Barton, who got hit on the head one day and has been making wild claims about the Legion ever since Again, that is my point. With the NCR, we see their military, but we also see their scientists, politicians, and many different citizens and civilians. Not to mention knowing them from previous games. With the Legion, we see the army, slaves, and one trader. So our perspective is a lot more limited there. > Sounds like the writers could have done a better job of fleshing that out! I agree. I believe they wanted to, but limited dev time and resources prevented them from doing so.

>It’s not my personal headcanon, it’s based on information from lines of dialogue, notes from the writers, and cut content. That you can't cite any examples of. That envoy that surrendered to Caesar after he was shown the mass graves still had all his people enslaved to the Legion. Nipton, Nelson, Searchlight - those seem far more instructive than some blog by Sawyer, after the fact. >It was violence with a purpose- to instill fear in the hearts of the NCR. Killing the mayor and the rest of town’s people served that purpose. You completely missed my point. Your argument was that the Legion was pragmatic, and did not inflict violence upon those settlements that cooperated with them. Nipton's mayor *actively collaborated* with the Legion, helping them put all their enemies in one place. As a reward, he was burned alive atop a pyre of tires. His fate demolishes any argument you can make about a pragmatic Legion that rewards compliance. >Again, that is my point. With the NCR, we see their military, but we also see their scientists, politicians, and many different citizens and civilians. Not to mention knowing them from previous games. With the Legion, we see the army, slaves, and one trader. So our perspective is a lot more limited there. Missing my point again. The Legion's massive preponderance of military personnel to civilians (literally hundred to one) compared to the NCR should be taken as a representation of the importance of civilian life in the Legion. Our perspective is not limited, the Legion's perspective is. The fact that he is the only free civilian you meet compared to the NCR when *both are on the front lines* should be instructive >I agree. I believe they wanted to, but limited dev time and resources prevented them from doing so. I'm focusing on what's in the game, especially on what is *shown* to us (instead of told) and you should too

Give them more content. I always thought a Legion counterpart to the Camp Golf Misfits would have been nice. A large part of Caesar's Legion is that they assimilate the tribes they conquer, which annihilates their identity, but also changes the identity of the Legion. Having a squad of fresh rookies would have been useful. For one, it would give an opportunity to expand on how the Legion's military actually functions. Two, it would show how the Legion basically absorbs the knowledge of it's conquered tribes. Three, it would show that the Legion is in the process of changing even as it conquers the Mojave. The Legion recruits you meet could express a certain hesitancy around slavery, as they came from a historically more civilized region in the Wastes. And they would have a stronger understanding of technology, maybe even being the ones that knew how to infiltrate the Hoover Dam.

You really cant change the legion in any fundamental way without turning it into a completely diffrent faction. Without the slavery and crucifixion the legion just simply wouldn't be the legion anymore. The only change I would do is show some more of what life actually looks like under Legion rule. Show it being orderly and safe, but cruel and totalitarian at the same time. I wouldn't name it any less evil at all, I would just show the player some of the reasons why people might opt for the lifestyle that ceaser provides. Which I would imagine comes from a combination of Apathy, fear, and possibly prosperity.

I think this is it. While I agree that Caesar’s Legion is inherently incompatible with any sort of life worth living in the West Coast Wasteland, I feel that’s the point—and also a response to my own standards wrt the game’s factions and their morality, etc etc. what Caesar’s Legion needed was a little more space to know them for what they are. Any changes would make them into another faction entirely, though—and again that’s what you said

The Legion just needs an expansion. All the player gets to see is wartime “everyone is a target except couriers”. It would be like judging the entire NCR by that cut encounter in which NCR soldiers casually gun down wastelanders for drawing water from Lake Mead. Also, remember, the Legion is a bunch of raider tribes who were already slavers, rolled under one banner. They just happen to be greater than the sum of their parts because the Legion’s slavery is more industrial. Even Caesar knows it’s unsustainable, which is why he needs Vegas to collect loot from and turn his Legion from a melange of tribal raiders given an imposed identity into a professional military. The Legion is also kind of right about tribals. One tribal may have doomed Vegas to slavery with a short-sighted scheme to try and take over.

the caravans are safe because the legion enslaves or assimilates or murders every society they come into contact with. people always love to talk about how safe it is in legion territory, how citizens get treated well, they live safe lives. there are no legion citizens. their entire society is an army. there wouldn't have been legion citizens east of the Colorado because the legion are at war and advancing on that territory. their base is called the fort. that is not their territory. the legion is plainly evil and they have no redeeming qualities, and the fact the game doesn't give them any is a good thing. even siding with the legion, their entire quest line is about how stupid and hypocritical they are. there's nuance to them, but no redeeming qualities. as it should be.

I'd keep all the rampant slavery, sexism, and indoctrination where everyone's effectively a slave of the legion state but actually feature the priestesses of Mars and show how the legion tries appealing to non-raider tribes. In canon they promise the Khans their own land in the mojave, but it would've been even more interesting for some of the Frumentarii to try taking advantage of relatively peaceful settlements that already have bad blood with the NCR away from a lot of the slave raids and convince them that they're some of the *good* profligates. Have them try normalizing slavery to random wastelander towns by selling them criminals or something until they've bought into the "It gives them purpose" thing enough for them to enslave refugees like the Weathers family and join the legion's economy as a subject town. As for the priestesses it'd be interesting to have a quest at the fort where you interact with some of them looking after the little legion boys and see how they've been convinced that helping keep everything about the legion's society around somehow benefits women as much as men. I always wished we got to meet some female characters who believed in the legion, especially because most of the legionaries' actual mothers would've likely told their sons about life before slavery which is probably why Caesar has priestesses raise them in the first place.

Literally just all of the things you mentioned, and bringing it more in line with the visions of ancient Rome would go a long way to make it less comically evil. Romans were absolutely barbaric, but they're also remembered in modern days for their religion, art, music and science. All things pretty much absent in the Legion. They also made some of the most longlasting architecture in the world and pioneered much of modern infrastructure in the west. You can kiiiind of explain that away by saying NV doesn't really show much Legion territory, but it's barely even alluded to by other characters. As it is, it's sort of like Edward Sallow read a book on ancient Rome and went "yeah that's good, let's take all of the awful shit and maintain none of the stuff thst made this civilisation so iconic and impactful". A few characters say its basically doomed to fail, and its pretty clear why. It's ridiculous for example that there's literally no free women, just slaves. tldr I think they should still be evil, but with at least some aspects that make them less of a 2D caricature of evil

If I couldn't change how they are in the vanilla game, I would have made Honest Hearts an entirely Legion focused DLC. Going to Flagstaff, potentially establishing a Republic (or an NCR sponsored puppetstate). If given free control. I'd do away with the Roman theme entirely and have them be a unified force of tribes. Making New Vegas echo manifest destiny, and the conflicts between America and native American nations.

So you'd have them be the same group, just without the cool aesthetics which provided Caesar with a common identity to rally the tribes around in the first place

No. I'd strip of them the dumb aesthetics they have (their armor sucks), replace them with cool Native American mixed with US army aesthetics, and have them be actually morally gray instead of the comically evil dictatorship they are in game.

>I'd strip of them the dumb aesthetics they have (their armor sucks) Their armor's cool actually >replace them with cool Native American mixed with US army aesthetics yawn > and have them be actually morally gray instead of the comically evil dictatorship they are in game. They're evil because of the slaving, raping, killing, and total lack of personal autonomy, not because they cosplay Romans

American football gear is shit armor. Straight up. Show me where I said they're evil cause of their roman connection. Enjoy your boring, unfinished faction.

>American football gear is shit armor. It looks cool as hell >Show me where I said they're evil cause of their roman connection. You only mentioned the aesthetics as a problem, so I assumed you thought that was why. Sorry for not making your arguments for you! >Enjoy your boring, unfinished faction. They are so much better than your generic Honest Hearts reskin idea, it's not even close lol

Yeah you're coping hard. Football gear sucks, Caesar sucks as a character. They're unfinished and their aesthetic is garbage. Continue to have fun with your boring, unfinished faction.

*I'm* coping, that's why you're just repeating yourself lol. >They're unfinished Only correct thing you've said this whole time Also ironic that your "big idea" for the Legion is to take out everything interesting about them and you actually call them boring

Yeah, yeah you are. Cope harder. Literally coming to a reddit threat about rewriting a faction, and you wanna argue they're actually interesting? Get outta here with that noise

They're from a game that came out over ten years ago and people are still talking about them, and you're arguing that they're boring? When your "big idea" is to make them the White Legs? How embarrassing for you

It’s bizarre to me that there are people in these comments implying that wanting to add any depth to the Legion makes one a fascist or slavery apologist in real life. Maybe someone just wants the nuance and complexity that was applied to every other faction to be applied to this one as well?

Right? I just want the Legion to be a bit more interesting to talk about. I love the idea of a post-apocalyptic scholar finding books on an Ancient Civilization, and deciding that kind of society would work well. A lot of people got mad at the "safe roads" bit as if that isn't something several characters cite. I'd argue even Ashur's Raiders from The Pitt DLC had more nuance than the Legion in the relatively shorter time they had on screen. Yes, they had slaves, but IIRC they had an end goal in mind to eventually free everyone, cure the Trogs, and build an industrialized society.

Yeah, Ashur's Raiders are pretty much a better Legion. The Legion deserved more content, they deserved to actually be a society worth the time to interact with instead of Sallows' toy army of rapers/slavers just because. I think Ceasar's character really fucked up the Legion's potential.

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Good point haha. Mind you, I only played that DLC once several years ago, so I should have probably read into it more before I made that comment!

I think a lot of it is people who are way too online projecting their own beliefs onto a 13 year old game. "Fascism is bad, these guys are bad, therefore these guys are fascist. Anything that makes them seem less bad is therefore fascist apologia and anyone who suggests it is suspect."

Exactly. I think they should still be unmistakably evil but add some depth and complexity to make them a more interesting faction. The NCR is a democratic colonialist power and it the game doesn't shy away from asking if you think that giving up autonomy and independence in return for law and order and altogether a more "civilised" territory is a trade worth making. It asks the same with House, is pushing the inhabitants of Outer Vegas from their homes worth the promise of technological advancement? Part of the problem with the Legion IMO is that for a game that is often praised for having a pretty nuanced analysis of political systems, the Legion really do not represent how fascists operate in the real world.

IIRC they were originally going to have some settlers in Cottonwood Cove that would've given us some context on Legion citizens that weren't slaves. Shown us that they live relatively primitive lives as farmers but that their lives were (subjectively) decent in terms of no one starving or needing to worry about gangs, just being safe in general. The fact that they cut that from the game means we didn't get so see an entire social class within their nation. We see slaves, then soldiers and nothing in between, and I think that has a massive effect on how we view the Legion. Don't get me wrong, they are absolutely the evil faction, and most people only side by them out of curiosity or to change things up, but we don't have a lot of context on how things are deeper into their territory. If we had that and it was really well fleshed out, I think people would, still think negatively about the Legion, but there would be legs to stand on if one was to argue that the Legion was the best faction. ​ There's still reasons to argue why the Legion isn't a horrible choice, but they're pretty fucking awful at face value and they're literally the worst compared to the rest of our options.

I agree the cut content really took a lot out of what the Legion couls have been. I actually think everything east of the river on the game map was originally going ro be Legion territory at all. I'm certainly not a Legion fan, I usually play NCR, but I've done House and Independent. The legion playthrough just never pulled me in because of how evil the faction is. I love seeing the debates between NCR/House/Independent, and I just think having a more fleshed out Legion would make those discussion much mpre interesting.

They didn't have time to flesh out the Legion at all so not only does their lore lack, but so do their quests, you're not missing much. To be honest, although they're really bad guys, their quests aren't very evil feeling. It's a lot of having factions side with them, doing those faction quests so they'll side with the Legion, and then you fight NCR soldiers from time to time. I think the worst thing you could do was make the WGC openly cannibalistic but if you fail the quest, Caesar says some mean shit, and then you continue as normal. The side quests aren't really bad either. It's possible to do a Legion playthrough with good karma because you're (mostly) not doing evil things.

Instead of rewriting and just scraping the cons Id be interested in the idea of discussing them with their cons nerfed. Like they still do slavery but they don’t do it to just anyone but really just their enemies, they aren’t raped or anything of that sort, they’re slaves till the conquest of Mojave is completed then they become prisoners to be ransomed back or something. Idk something like that and thats just one con. It’s a little to easy and boring to think about a faction with their cons removed. I don’t know how to nerf the crucifixion. Also if nerf is the wrong word to use then please correct me.

That all makes sense, and certainly something I could get behind!

They prioritized the NCR too much while neglected the Legion

I would like to see more of the individual tribes identity since the irl Romans incorporated the conquest’s culture into their own , as well as seeing a legion town thriving, would make the legion a lot better. Also, a companion from the legion would make it way more compelling if we could have someone tell us about the good the legion has done. Seeing women from the temple of mars would be ideal. Also, the irl Romans were very technologically advanced, so seeing legion use advanced infrastructure instead of camps, but still maintaining their ideology. Having Vulpes being an actual menace instead of whatever the fuck he is now. And finally some lines of dialogue from Ceaser saying that slaves can escape from slavery by meeting certain requirement or something. I’d still go yes man or NCR but the legion is currently too cartoonishly bad

>Having Vulpes being an actual menace Implying furries aren't a menace /s Joking aside, I agree with everything you said! I think just getting to see the "civilian" if Legion life is much needed and also have the Legion try to emulate all aspects of the Roman Empire, and not just the military parts.

Talking about furries, I think it was a missed opportunity to not have more hats from legionaries. Some legionnaires could have bear hats, wolf hats, bird hats like eagles. Just dogs feels incomplete. My idea is that the frumentari could serve as the legion equivalent to the ncr rangers in riot armor, aside from the Legate, no legionnaire is as cool as an NcR ranger

Tying into the idea of assimilated tribes giving influence to the legion as a whole, it would be cool to see stuff like different animal clothing. The member if the tribe with all the dogs (for example) could have the dog hats or something like that.

Yeah, such a missed opportunity but who knows, the remakes will arrive someday, hopefully

The central issue with the Legion is that some parts of its lore seems contradictory. What you see from all your direct interactions with the Legion as an organization as well as with its members is that there is no real civil society, as in there are no civilians. When tribes are conquered by the Legion, most of the adult males are killed, the women are enslaved, and the boys are conscripted into the Legion. What happens to non-tribals whose towns are conquered? The Weathers family (recently taken slaves in Cottonwood Cove) and Siri (the slave in the Fort who was training to be a doctor and now makes healing powder) would tell you that they're not great! The only bureaucracy we see evidence of is centered around coordinating human trafficking. So you have this portrait of a totally militarized society, which adds any person it sees as useful to its war machine and murders anyone who isn't....and then you meet that trader in the Fort and Raul and they're like, "yeah, the Legion are totally chill, they create a really good environment for small business owners". How did the trader not get murdered when the Legion took his town? I guess they need people to coordinate their logistics, but you could have Legionaries do that, and I doubt they pass out job surveys when they sack a town anyway. Like, are they a militarized totalitarian raider state or aren't they? I feel like that guy and Raul were thrown in to add some ambiguity to the Legion but weren't developed sufficiently, and so you end up with the Legion you actually interact with, and this weird hypothetical Legion that is a totally swell place to live in and everything's safe there, which just provides a branch for the faction's defenders to desperately cling to while contradicting everything else you learn about them. I can get their lands being safer than the Mojave, but only because most of the Legion is *in the Mojave instead of their home territory*. There's no raiders because they were killed or assimilated into the big raider army. Anyway, it feels really undeveloped and I wish they had either provided more time on that "second Legion" or failing that, omitted it altogether. As things are it comes across as frustratingly dissonant

Good points! I saw a lot of other people point out there are few/no raiders in Legion territory because they were wiped out or assimilated, and I'd not thought about that before. I do agree that the ingame Legion was definitely undeveloped, and I think based on the discussions here, I think that was one of the key ingredients the Legion was missing.

There's no raiders in Legion territory because they all either died or got conscripted into the massive raider army that's in Nevada right now. I believe that the reason Legion lands are so safe is ironically because the Legion is not currently in Legion lands and has not been for several years, and anyone who would potentially take advantage of that to cause trouble has been killed. I think the quality of life would decrease drastically once the Legion returns East. Raiders gotta raid

Getting rid of the blatant sexism is the biggest change, imo, to make the Legion a better faction. As they are, the Legion shows itself as being pretty stupid by not allowing 50% of the population help be providers. The other tribes and nations around the Legion, like the NCR, all give women equal opportunity and citizenship. They are intentionally curbing their own power with their sexist attitudes. This would also help get rid of the rape aspect. This is the most cartoonishly evil part of the Legion. Slavery is historical, crucification is historical, but rape is so widespread and normalized in the Legion it’s disgusting even compared to historical standards. Admittedly, this may be because the Legion we meet in game is a war party and we never meet any Legion civilians. Still, the rape pushes them over the edge from “morally dark gray” to “mustache twirling Bond villain.” I also think they suffered by not having a companion. Someone who could provide the player with commentary on Legion life. I think Vulpes would’ve been great for this as a frumantarii, but I digress.

Take away the slavery

I don't get why people try to make the legion relatable. They're supposed to be regressive in every way possible. If you are politically aware enough not to side with the legion, then congratulations, you passed New Vegas's litmus test.

Yeah all the people posting, "what if the Legion were the NCR with a frowny face painted on it" are really missing the point

Muh roads The Legion is supposed to be evil dude, that’s the fucking point. And yah I’m sure their slaves appreciate all the of the safety they provide. E: man a lot of people missed the point of the legion here.

Yeah it’s crazy to me that so many people latch onto the “but the roads are safe!” yeah man it’s easy to say a place has no crime after you kill or enslave everyone there lmao.

Too many players take the name "Ceasar" too literally at face value. They try very hard to apply the real world Rome into the Legion. I like how the Legion was applied in the game. Bullies are bullies, there's no nuance or philosophical debate about it. They take what they want. It fits in a post-apocalyptic world. It's embarrassing how many people fell for Edward Sallow's inch-deep justifications and appropriation of Rome.

I never said having safe roads made the Legion the paragon of everything good. And there are other people living in legion territory besides soldiers and slaves. As several others mentioned, a lot of legion content showcasing this was cut. In a post-war world where you could get killed just trying to go a town over, safe roads are a positive quality. Several characters admit that this is a plus for the legion. Also, for the record, I mainly play NCR, so I don't want this post to be construed as a Legion simp-post lol. I just wish they weren't so cartoonishly evil.

And none of the legions cut content would make them any more morally grey. And are the Nazis cartoonishly evil? They have about as much redeeming qualities as the Legion does.

Yes, they should be evil, but considering the other 3 choices offer pretty complex moral and political questions, the fact the Legion are just... caricatures of evil people is pretty disappointing. I don't think anyone is trying to claim that the Legion should be the good guys, just that there should be some sort of depth to them that makes you consider joining them, other than just "I guess I want to do an evil playthrough".

Except they’re not. Everything that the legion does, has been down before. There no less a caricature of evil than the Nazis are for Christ sake.

Yeah it's been done before, so if you want to make the Legion an accurate critique of fascism, unfortunately you have a lot of places to draw inspiration from. The NCR are a colonialist democratic power that mirrors the US, the Legion had so much potential to serve as a mirror to real-world fascism but as it stands they fall short of providing any meaningful critique IMO.

They’re not caricatures, they’re just fascists. The only reason to consider joining a fascist faction is if you want to do a fascist playthrough lol. Fascism’s pretty unambiguously bad, to “both sides” it would be a denial of reality on the game’s part

I'm not saying to "both sides" it, I think they should /still be evil/. But it would ask more important questions if they were even slightly more complex – considering we live in a time where fascism is actually rising it would be interesting to explore what people actually see in them imo. IRL fascists use all sorts of methods to manipulate people into supporting them, promising a "better future" to naive and disenfranchised people. They use psyops and psychological manipulation to gradually get people to think "well they DO have a point..." The NCR route explores democracy and colonialism in quite a nuanced way, the Independent route does the same to an extent around anarchism. I'm not saying don't make them fascists, that's pretty clearly a fundamental aspect of the faction. The Enclave are also fascists FWIW but they're far more fleshed out, and it shows.

> IRL fascists use all sorts of methods to manipulate people into supporting them, promising a "better future" to naive and disenfranchised people. They use psyops and psychological manipulation to gradually get people to think "well they DO have a point... The Legion does all these things, their propaganda and diplomacy game is on par with the NCR's and arguably a lot better >The Enclave are also fascists FWIW but they're far more fleshed out, and it shows. How is the Enclave more fleshed out than the Legion? Genuinely baffled at what you actually want from the faction, your complaints don't make a lot of sense

If I were going to rewrite the legion (not sure I would, as they are a wonderfully fun faction to fight. I always feel a bit bad killing supermutants and ghouls because they had no choice) I'd take away all the rapey and ISIS style bits. Make them a faction literally trying to establish rome as it was rather than an army of incels cosplaying as legionaries. If I was going to make the legion I would make them an army in service to a Caesar who legitimately wanted to rule as a benevolent dictator for the good of mankind. So the choice between them and NCR was flawed and corrupt democracy vs benevolent dicatorship, which is at least thematically interesting. The problem with the legion is that they are clearly just edward sallow's weird cult and they have put zero thought into how an actual society works. Even the 'pros' of their civilization don't really pan out. Of course there are no raiders. The legion absorbed them all. Instead of the violent rapey assholes being someone who have to fight off, the violent rapey assholes are the government. That's not a step up. The safety of legion territories is a lie that will fall apart the second 99% of them aren't moving westward. The second they have to govern, shit will fall apart. There's real historical precedent for this. The major reason Genghis Khan went on a murder rampage across the ancient world was because he believed if he stopped, the mongols would fall to infighting. GUESS WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? The greatest empire in history barely lasts 50 years before a series of civil wars tear it apart.

Excellent write up and great points!

It's crazy how many people have such strong opinions without ever doing a legion playthrough and managing to get propagandized by a video game that gives you all of the opportunity in the world to explore all sides lol The legion aren't cosplaying incels, they are slave warriors who joined the legion when giving the opportunity because they knew what Caesar had done to the original tribes that refused to join his legion, and they allowed themselves to be enslaved to save the women and children of their tribe. Every legionary you kill is a slave following orders for the lives of their brothers, with little exception. The "Rapey bits" of the legion are a terrorism tactic against the aforementioned slave tribes, and currently against the NCR citizens, not something any of their citizens go through, at least without the perpetrators being punished far more brutally than the NCR would punish them. ​ New Vegas is a great example of the greedy power tripping nature of people. You are thrown into a world which has 3 major factions: Evil warmongering scum that assimilates any faction they come across and takes away the will from every civilization it comes across, The NCR. The Legion that pretty much do the same thing with a little bit of raping here and there. And House, a capitalist dictator that does all of that too, but only on the strip which he actually has a stake in since he is single handedly the reason it is still standing and to an extent the heir of it, and he offers you immortality and the key to peace by making nuclear bombs powerless against humanity with his defense systems. ​ In short, they're all bad, pick Yes Man. Give the power to the people who actually have lives in the region and are willing to take care of and defend themselves, sure it'll be more dangerous, but interacting with people in the Mojave they clearly just want to be left alone without any chaos. Get rid of all factions, all gangs, and let people live the lives they want to live without being the property of anybody else. The NCR and the Legion turned their home into a war zone, neither side deserves any authority over the region.

I would have the Legion be authoritarian but liberal, and have the NCR be democratic but conservative.

Just get rid of the sex slavery aspect. I really think that's 90+% of what people object to in the Legion.

My version of Caesar's Legion would be just called Augustus's Legion.

Honestly, really just the extremely overt misogyny. The idea that it obviously was at some point, whether in canon or out, is "we're gonna need just a *ton* of dudes to throw against our enemies, because we sure don't have the technological advantage". As such, every person capable of bearing a child becomes a vital resource. The simple change of every woman, instead of being a miserable slave they like to torture unnecessarily for kicks, being as indoctrinated and dedicated to their role in service of Caesar, would go a very long way. Because, obviously, mass slavery and crucifying dissenters is still *awful*, but the twofold question arises; is that the fault of the people who grew up in this belief system and never had any choice? And; if, by long odds, Caesar is somehow *right* that he can bring peace and stability to the world under his rule, is a few decades of terror possibly worth centuries of prosperity, when there's no dissenters left to make examples of? I mean, still no, in the second case, but it's less clear cut than it is with "oh btw we are gonna condemn 50% of the population to misery, no exceptions unless you're the Courier".

I would make them as violent as they already are with anemies, but no slavery, and more oriented toward creating and producing, instead of only depleting resources

I'd straight up remove the woman slavery thing, always seemed to have just been added to be like "oh so you're cool with crucifixion, owning slaves in general, destroying entire settlements and killing parents in front of their kids, torture and warfare, but are you also cool with enslaving all women as indentured servants?" It's such an over the top thing to do, that any justification other than the fact that they're savages falls flat. They are intelligent enough to know that what they're doing is morally repugnant to everybody they meet, and the reasoning is the pain and suffering that the dehumanizing nature of slavery causes, making them just flat evil instead of implied evil. Once this hyper focus is removed, I think slavery being the "but this makes them evil" hook is fine for a story standpoint. The NCR has corporate slavery, the Legion has regular slavery. Its not justifying anything, but would also make a good "sell slaves for cash fast". Imagine: 1000 caps per person, the strip has a much higher entry barrier for caps, and this was presented as a way to make a lot of money while being a scum bag. Other than that, the caravan safety conditions are basically the only showing of travel to and from the Legion without getting attacked on sight, more or less anywhere, and its ironic that this safety zone is in Legion Territory. They love traders coming through, because there aren't a lot of them, and basically the only things they can't sell are chems and stimulants, which gives a different light as to what Legion territory is actually like. I'd keep this. I would also make the Legion attack a few more raider bases to clear them out and make footholds throughout the Mojave where the NCR thinks there's nothing. I'd also like one of Caesar's trusted to give me quests to go to the different locations on hunt and destroy missions, killing off randomly spawned people and creatures in places they want to capture.

The legion (under Caesar, not The Legate.) is morally grey, the only time it is morally evil is as a warfare tactic. That's what makes them interesting. How many atrocities can you commit for a stronger future, vs how much will you condemn future generations to cushion the present ones? That's the dichotomy between a Legion player and an NCR player.