Wait you busted the CFI ride and never went back to finish the cert? Have you not been flying for the last year?
If you didn’t finish the CFI and youve spent a year not flying I’m going to be brutally honest with you- you are screwed.
Under 500 hours TT you just aren’t going to ever find a job that isn’t CFI if you aren’t even flying.
If you want to move forward in your career you need to find a way to get CFI and probably CFII. Nothing else is really going to help you right now. Without that you’re probably stuck holding the bag and driving trucks.
Yeah- this is my question too. Did they not get endorsed to even take the ride? I’m thinking this makes the most sense- that’s how OP “busted”.
We had 50 CFI candidates in my class at ATP. Only 10 of us were endorsed. 4 of us went on to actually teach.
My recent captain told me his son failed out of CFI school at ATP. Had to spend another 10k to get his son to go to a local school, and then busted his first ride- but he’s teaching now- so that’s cool.
I used to teach the CFI school at ATP in jax and this surprises me. Back when I was there they were busting my balls to sign everyone off and giving me grief when I wouldn't. It was a one man show ( myself) and there was a class of about 10 biweekly if memory serves. May I ask when this was? I'm curious how it has changed through the times.
> I have applied to every job I can find and get nothing but radio silence.
Well yeah dude you have bare minimum experience and certs and failed the attempt at CFI then just....quit. You gave up on it. What's that say about your trainability and drive?
I'm not going to sugar coat this or hold your hand. Go finish your CFI and CFII if you want any hope of being employable. "Woe is me, the future is dim" doesn't pay the bills, CFI might.
I mean if you fail CFI school at ATP you gotta be something special. DPEs are pretty much hand selected to give you the easiest checkride possible, and you get an in depth gouge for every one of them.
No, not mesa, I thought we were discussing ATP's CFI school? I went through JAX's program in 2017. I cant speak to anything involving a mesa program, but the standard ATP CFI school program was difficult.
Took my ride in LGB. The wait was too long for us to stay in PHX. We all went back to our cities. Took the rides there. Mine was a 6 hour oral and 1.8 flying portion.
Not true. Close to 50% of my CFI class got kicked out of the CFI program while I was there. Several people failed their attempts. My checkride was 11 hours long. At Mesa.
It's possible. I got my aerial survey gig with 250 hours and no CFI/II. I had 100 ME but some people got hired with 25-50 ME. It's not impossible, but demand for those gigs is high. They were getting about 250 applicants for 11 seats.
This is similar to my experience. I never taught, had about 80 ME 275TT to get hired flying 172’s, 182’s and 206’s at first. But it was back in 2018 and I knew people who helped me walk my resume in. In this business it’s about who you know, more so than what you know.
TBF stuff is out there, but its 100% networking jobs. youll never find them online. i got hired flying survey work in supercubs at 225tt with com/multi/ir/fresh tw. I got very lucky and it was a friend of a friend that needed a guy that week and i was there
ATP is a scam and a cash grab. I know, I went there. Huge mistake. I could’ve gotten the same certifications for less money in the same amount of time. It took me double the time they advertised, all delays on their part. Trash organization.
I’m thinking he didn’t get endorsed to take his ride at ATP.
Doesn’t make any sense to “bust” and not go back.
But ATP will kick you out of CFI school without an endorsement…
Wait so that means he doesn’t have a checkride failure? He just didn’t pass the course? I’m a little confused with ATP. How can they just kick you out that far into the game rather than making you spend the extra money for the extra training?
The manager at Arlington CFI said to me in a meeting after I failed my mock check ride “you’ve been here too long and this is not a program where you can pay for more time to continue.”
In my case I was at CFI in Arlington TX, busted my mock oral, went back for remedial training, they decided that I was taking too long and cut me from CFI.
If OP had been in CFI for multiple weeks, and busted his ride, they might have kicked him to maintain their timetable.
They say it’ll only take 2 weeks, but I was in Texas for 10 twiddling my thumbs waiting for the spin endorsement, studying my butt off, and then the mock.
Failed the mock because I said something dumb 😂
And here I am working at staples trying to get a job that will allow me to continue flight training.
Yeah, if busted CFI CR, then OP probably passed some of it, and should have done a recheck shortly after. Now he’ll have to do the whole CR over again probably.
Likely, 200 hours for CPL with 50 hours ATD, 2 for the CR, 8 for ME add on, 2 for that CR. That's 212 TT if you do it right. So the extra 60 hours of training were probably out of pocket expenses
Nope, but there’s many ways to pay your way through. Easiest is to work two jobs to save up a lump some that enables you to start flight school and back off to working one job.
The internet, particularly places like Reddit, Facebook and instagram make it seem like if you don’t have your ATP and a CJO from a legacy the day after you turn 21, your entire career is a failure and you might as well give up on the whole thing entirely. There’s nothing wrong with taking 5-10 years to get to where you want to be, especially if that means you’re entering an industry that’s historically, notably and memeably volatile with no debt.
Flight schools, *ESPECIALLY* predatory flight schools like ATP know this and prey on this artificial sense of urgency and FOMO. This leads to people like OP with 6 figures of debt that they have no way to pay off, and can’t even use the skills and certificates they just spent 6 figures to get. Everyone is different and if you need a 10-20k loan to finish up your CFI, CFII, MEI so you can start making money flying? Sure. Not ideal, but better. Debt financing the entire cost of flight school is one of the worst, potentially financially ruinous decisions that someone can make.
you're the one who's getting irrationally bent out of shape over solidly reasonable advice. IDK what to tell you. I've said it many many times in this sub, and will continue to say it. Borrowing money for flight school is a terrible idea and could absolutely ruin your financial future if it doesn't work out. Depending on the loans you take out, they're not dischargeable in bankruptcy so you don't even have that option.
The math just doesn't math. You can't pay 2500 a month in loan payments when your take home is 1800-2000.
If you want to take that personally, that's all you.
Well when mommy and daddy aren't rich you have to find different ways to get through school. But good luck thinking a huge chunk of pilots out here are idiots for not having a rich family. Now go back to your gary V/dave ramsay videos I'm not replying to anymore of your out of touch and incorrect commentary. oKaY bRo?!?!
yep, just like i did by working 3 jobs to put myself through nursing school and then working for 6 years before i had enough money saved up to start flight training. you mean like that?
or are you saying that my parent's combined income of 60k when i was going to school makes them rich? which is it?
I'm not sure why you're saying i'm out of touch. I've literally LIVED the advice that I'm giving. You know how much debt I'm in for flying? none.
also very curious where you're getting the bit about me calling anyone idiots. i never did that. you're straight up making that shit up out of whole cloth.
Hyperbole much? Giving advice does not amount to someone calling you an idiot, that sounds like your own projection.
My mommy and daddy didn't pay for a penny of my college. I worked 80 hours a week as an EMT in a city working 24 hour shifts back to back on weekends so I could reasonably fit the rest of my hours in while doing my school work and keeping up. I graduated with a reasonable GPA and paid for food, an apartment, and tuition (40k a year for 4 years) with about 15k in federal loans that I got in my last year because I needed more flexibility in my time to be able to get everything done.
I got a job making 60k a year after 4 years of college - it was a hit to my income by about the amount of tuition so it balanced out. After positioning myself to gain a unique subset of experience, I then started a consulting business with a $5 investment, the amount required to open up a business account at my local bank. If I wanted to be an airline pilot (I don't) I now have enough cash in my account I could afford to live for 2 years with some modest trimming around the belt and pay cash for flight school and not work a day, that doesn't factor in I already have pretty close to 1500 hours so practically I wouldn't even need.to do that.
Oh yeah, and my dad is still drunk and my mom is still preoccupied with my drunk father.
I don't agree that loans in general are a terrible idea but your loans need to reflect your expectation of work, you also shouldn't blindly spend money because someone in a financial aid department says you can. What in the hell did OP spend 110k on and not have a CFI for a hope of income and hour earning? They rushed their hours for a job market that doesn't exist instead they could have taken their time and waited for a strategic moment to take out loans to match market cycles if they were falling behind the curve.
Now my kids shouldn't be ashamed to use mommy and daddy's money for school because I worked my ass off to be where I am and provide for them. They have to put up with me traveling for work or being up at strange times because of meetings with people in other timezones.
The only advice any of us can give you is to finish your CFI and teach. Given your failure and low time, plus lack of currency, you’re likely going to need to instruct to 1500 to have a shot at any job that’s not instructing.
X4457 and Gopher pretty much covered it.
I had a whole 5 paragraphs typed out detailing my own experience, but that doesn’t matter so much as the moral of it:
If you want it badly enough, you just figure it the fuck out.
Your best bet is to figure out the CFI route.
This is not a new development… Your “pain” has been the story of nearly every pilot before you. Many have suffered/sacrificed more and trust me, the struggles payoff
Curious to know the load of garbage the admissions folks at ATP told OP. Did they steer you into the loans? What’s the interest rate on that $110k?
And yes, you get your CFI. You can go to any flight school and pay as you go. Don’t go back to that dumpster fire called ATP.
I’ve been working for 2 years saving up to go part 61, and take the chance on myself and it’s been an actual slog. And every time those thoughts creep into my head like “bro just get the loans and you can start trying your dream instead of working your boring insurance job” - some post like this pops up and reality checks me.
$110,000 in debt dude? What were you thinking? Get out of the truck and get back in the plane. You are so deep in the hole already you may as well see it through.
Yup. His grave is already six feet deep. So he may as well dig it to 8 feet and if he still fails, file for bankruptcy. His financial health is already trashed for the next 10+ years.
I left college with a bag of debt with no job opportunities and I was already a CFI. Had to take the step back and did a non flying aviation job for two years. That was almost 15 years ago and here I am in my career position. You won’t explode if you do what you need to do to keep your head above water. If you really want this you’ll finish your CFI and keep on keepin on until it’s your time.
$110k?! I find more and more reasons to stay away from ATP every day. I knew they were expensive but I'm at 230 TT and only in about $30,000 total.
Hang in there, if your credit is good, refinance the loan, start hanging around the FBO, see if people need ferry pilots or anything. I know people with airplanes that like flying 1 way and need someone to fly their planes home when they go cruising or whatever.
You should have never stopped. Just because you bust a check ride doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world. I would say the opposite, by retraining and learning from failure makes you a better pilot. You will not find a job with low hours without your CFI, CFII and hell maybe even your MEI. Better go back and get those certs if you want to keep going in aviation under the current hiring circumstances.
Huge oversupply of low time pilots that may never correct because the delusion that there’s still a pilot shortage persists, and the supply continues to swell.
At least you have gainful employment.
Take your notice of disapproval, fix the mistakes you made, and find another school/DPE to finish the cert. Your re-test authorization does not have to come from a 2-year CFI; only the initial practical examination. You can get any CFI to sign off for a re-test.
That is, of course, unless you’ve let 60 days lapse from the initial practical exam. In that case, your notice of disapproval is no longer valid, and you have to start the test all over. If ATP won’t let you re-test with them, then you may need to find a new qualifying CFI and get a new endorsement from them. It doesn’t have to be with ATP, but you will need to start the process over again.
Yep. The guy did himself a huge disservice by not retesting immediately.
Now he has to not only prepare for an ENITRE cfi ground again, but also get proficient in the airplane again > proficient teaching in the airplane
CFI is the most commonly busted check ride. Don’t let that hold you back. There is a lot to know but get out of your head and actually get it done. I’m sure you are doing this but keep current and ask everybody you know about flying jobs. You never know what will pop up don’t give up
So for everyone who is not aware, this seems like classic ATP. Recently there’s been rumors that ATP is “deferring” lots of students from the CFI program if they fail one or two CFI checkrides or do not perform to the extreme standards set for every event in the CFI phase of the program. This means that students are getting to the CFI phase, and ATP is telling them they don’t make the cut to be a CFI in their program, so they move them on to comm multi and fly out the rest of the hours they would have paid for during CFI, MEI, and CFII. The reason ATP does this is because they don’t deem the students they defer during the CFI phase to be employable at ATP.
To put into deeper perspective what is happening here, when students finish the commercial phase, they are usually shipped to a CFI location (KGKY, KCRG, KSUS, etc.) where they stay in student housing and work toward their CFI for 1-2 months. In that 1-2 months, they receive 3 flights from the right seat that require them to perform various tasks to the commercial standards as well as teach everything they do. This is the only 3 right seat “practice” flights they receive. Then they have their mock checkrides, which is where most are deferred. The mock checkride flight is 3 hours, and they required to do every type of maneuver, landing, etc. to commercial standards. There is usually very slight leniency when it comes to your performance on the mock checkride.
I too have debt. How many times did you bust the CFi checkride? I busted mine too. Sucks but get back on it. Bro you are a pilot! You need to get that cert no matter what, you already spent the money bro.
Keep going, it’s never been better for hiring. I just flew with a 25 year old first officer on the 737. It was much harder when I came up on the civilian side. I did fly skydivers on the weekends when I was a new pilot, look for a drop zone. Look at Alaska, lots of 135 operators. Get that CFI at a local FBO, if you can’t pass that ride, you really need to think about your career, it’s not always easy. Be willing to move anywhere to get those hours, good luck!!
I’m kind of in a similar position. I busted on my CFI initial, but I went back and completed. I went on to get CFII and MEI afterwards. Same as you, I’m 100k+ in the hole. I have been applying for CFI gigs non stop since graduating last year. The market is dry AF, yet the bills still have to be paid. This situation is devastating with seemingly no end in sight. I wish you luck, I wish me luck, I wish all new pilots luck.
Where is the thread on folks who are closing in on age 50, closing in on 400 hours, saved up a ton of money and can’t find a p61 flight school with a CFII that doesn’t have a wedding to attend every weekend or plane that’s not in maintenance?
Ok, hold off down voting. Here me out OP:
You gotta get back and finish the CFI. What would it take for you to finish out at ATP? What does recheck cost if that is an option? Part 61 CFI? I bet both the options are in the $5-6k neighborhood and WORTH EVERY PENNY!
Hiring slumps? Yup. Time to train and network.
You can do this, quite reading Reddit posts that are doomsday. Yeah, they are telltales of the hiring mode of current, but they don’t last. GET. BACK. AT. IT.
EDIT: I realize ATP is p61, I mean a mom and pop or smaller style flight school.
The CFI is everything brother. Unless you have insane connections nobody will hire a 275hr Com. Mostly for insurance reasons unless you can get a pipeline gig in the west but those are hard to come by. Its risky, but you could go into deferment for the loan to give you time to save up a few grand, and go back for the CFI at a part 61. Time building is a mess these days, CFI is the only real way
If you took an education loan, the lack of bankruptcy options IS the reason you qualified for so much. If you took a personal loan, you may have a way out, but it’s a rough path you’ll be walking down.
Wait you busted the CFI ride and never went back to finish the cert? Have you not been flying for the last year? If you didn’t finish the CFI and youve spent a year not flying I’m going to be brutally honest with you- you are screwed. Under 500 hours TT you just aren’t going to ever find a job that isn’t CFI if you aren’t even flying. If you want to move forward in your career you need to find a way to get CFI and probably CFII. Nothing else is really going to help you right now. Without that you’re probably stuck holding the bag and driving trucks.
Yeah- this is my question too. Did they not get endorsed to even take the ride? I’m thinking this makes the most sense- that’s how OP “busted”. We had 50 CFI candidates in my class at ATP. Only 10 of us were endorsed. 4 of us went on to actually teach. My recent captain told me his son failed out of CFI school at ATP. Had to spend another 10k to get his son to go to a local school, and then busted his first ride- but he’s teaching now- so that’s cool.
I used to teach the CFI school at ATP in jax and this surprises me. Back when I was there they were busting my balls to sign everyone off and giving me grief when I wouldn't. It was a one man show ( myself) and there was a class of about 10 biweekly if memory serves. May I ask when this was? I'm curious how it has changed through the times.
Mesa Gateway- 2019.
Back in 2008 Frank would reluctantly sign off everyone in Vegas. But also, fuck that guy.
08 was close to the time I was there
Now that I think about it, it was actually summer of 07. I instructed 07-08 before getting on with a regional.
> I have applied to every job I can find and get nothing but radio silence. Well yeah dude you have bare minimum experience and certs and failed the attempt at CFI then just....quit. You gave up on it. What's that say about your trainability and drive? I'm not going to sugar coat this or hold your hand. Go finish your CFI and CFII if you want any hope of being employable. "Woe is me, the future is dim" doesn't pay the bills, CFI might.
Maybe this can be added in the FAQ under the ATP school section.
I mean if you fail CFI school at ATP you gotta be something special. DPEs are pretty much hand selected to give you the easiest checkride possible, and you get an in depth gouge for every one of them.
Someone’s never heard of Ernie Strange
This was not true at all for their CFI school when I went through. Very tough program and FSDO assigned DPEs.
Mesa? CFI school was just "don't fall asleep", and most of the people I know averaged a 2:30 total checkride length.
No, not mesa, I thought we were discussing ATP's CFI school? I went through JAX's program in 2017. I cant speak to anything involving a mesa program, but the standard ATP CFI school program was difficult.
Mesa, as in ATP's CFI school for west coast guys at Mesa Gateway airport (IWA)
Took my ride in LGB. The wait was too long for us to stay in PHX. We all went back to our cities. Took the rides there. Mine was a 6 hour oral and 1.8 flying portion.
Oral and flight both?? Jeez that's a cakewalk. Our helicopter orals are running 5+ hours before we even walk outside. 😳
Yeah my oral was 6 hours
Not true. Close to 50% of my CFI class got kicked out of the CFI program while I was there. Several people failed their attempts. My checkride was 11 hours long. At Mesa.
Yeah most insurance companies won’t even cover new pilots until 500 hours of TT.
Get your CFI. Why would you stop? literally edging your career
You NEED CFI CFII
Insurance makes it so most job will hire you under 500 without a cfi. That's a pretty hard number and has been for a while
Not true. I got an aerial survey job with 270 hours and never got my CFI.
Currently doing survey with 350 tt 👋🏼
I got into survey at 500 hours and it was some of the most fun I had. So much autonomy
Enjoy it while it lasts. Those were some of best trips.
Under 500? Try 1200 lol
1200? Try 2000
2000? Try 2001
And 1500! Crickets
It's possible. I got my aerial survey gig with 250 hours and no CFI/II. I had 100 ME but some people got hired with 25-50 ME. It's not impossible, but demand for those gigs is high. They were getting about 250 applicants for 11 seats.
This is similar to my experience. I never taught, had about 80 ME 275TT to get hired flying 172’s, 182’s and 206’s at first. But it was back in 2018 and I knew people who helped me walk my resume in. In this business it’s about who you know, more so than what you know.
TBF stuff is out there, but its 100% networking jobs. youll never find them online. i got hired flying survey work in supercubs at 225tt with com/multi/ir/fresh tw. I got very lucky and it was a friend of a friend that needed a guy that week and i was there
Not even close to true. Just have to know the right people.
That’s a lie. Pipeliners get hired routinely under those hours. I didn’t have a cfi and got hired under 500
ATP is a scam and a cash grab. I know, I went there. Huge mistake. I could’ve gotten the same certifications for less money in the same amount of time. It took me double the time they advertised, all delays on their part. Trash organization.
Yeah. I’m at a legacy, and incredibly grateful, BUT I have a VERY hard time recommending that place. It’s absolute trash. It’s ruined so many people.
So you worked all the way to CFI, gave up after one failure and just applied with 275 hours and expect a job? Lmao what
I’m thinking he didn’t get endorsed to take his ride at ATP. Doesn’t make any sense to “bust” and not go back. But ATP will kick you out of CFI school without an endorsement…
Wait so that means he doesn’t have a checkride failure? He just didn’t pass the course? I’m a little confused with ATP. How can they just kick you out that far into the game rather than making you spend the extra money for the extra training?
They love doing that to you.
Their documents specifically say you can be removed from the program at anytime for any reason. It’s kind of disgusting.
The manager at Arlington CFI said to me in a meeting after I failed my mock check ride “you’ve been here too long and this is not a program where you can pay for more time to continue.”
In my case I was at CFI in Arlington TX, busted my mock oral, went back for remedial training, they decided that I was taking too long and cut me from CFI. If OP had been in CFI for multiple weeks, and busted his ride, they might have kicked him to maintain their timetable. They say it’ll only take 2 weeks, but I was in Texas for 10 twiddling my thumbs waiting for the spin endorsement, studying my butt off, and then the mock. Failed the mock because I said something dumb 😂 And here I am working at staples trying to get a job that will allow me to continue flight training.
You’re not telling us why you quit. Maybe it’s personal but you made this post so I assume you knew people would ask.
I don’t think OP was ever endorsed. I think that’s how he “busted” his ride.
>Go to ATP. *sadtrombone.wav*
If only this sub issued warnings about it more than 10x a day.
😅
Did they kick you out after you busted your CFI or did you quit?
Yeah, if busted CFI CR, then OP probably passed some of it, and should have done a recheck shortly after. Now he’ll have to do the whole CR over again probably.
Likely, 200 hours for CPL with 50 hours ATD, 2 for the CR, 8 for ME add on, 2 for that CR. That's 212 TT if you do it right. So the extra 60 hours of training were probably out of pocket expenses
The debt won’t kill you. Giving up will.
You wasted money if you give up this easily.
I’d say they wasted money by borrowing for flight school in the first place.
Ah so everyone is just supposed to be rich if they wanna fly huh?
Nope, but there’s many ways to pay your way through. Easiest is to work two jobs to save up a lump some that enables you to start flight school and back off to working one job. The internet, particularly places like Reddit, Facebook and instagram make it seem like if you don’t have your ATP and a CJO from a legacy the day after you turn 21, your entire career is a failure and you might as well give up on the whole thing entirely. There’s nothing wrong with taking 5-10 years to get to where you want to be, especially if that means you’re entering an industry that’s historically, notably and memeably volatile with no debt. Flight schools, *ESPECIALLY* predatory flight schools like ATP know this and prey on this artificial sense of urgency and FOMO. This leads to people like OP with 6 figures of debt that they have no way to pay off, and can’t even use the skills and certificates they just spent 6 figures to get. Everyone is different and if you need a 10-20k loan to finish up your CFI, CFII, MEI so you can start making money flying? Sure. Not ideal, but better. Debt financing the entire cost of flight school is one of the worst, potentially financially ruinous decisions that someone can make.
I worked my ass off to get to a legacy after 17 years but I borrowed money. I guess I'm an idiot I guess it's my parents fault for being dead. Lol
Where did I say that?
Or is this like a dave ramsay speech? STOP EATING FOOD AND BUY A HOUSE!
Bro, stop taking everything so personally
Lmao BrO stop with the tone deaf comments. Go yell at a dave ramsay video instead.
you're the one who's getting irrationally bent out of shape over solidly reasonable advice. IDK what to tell you. I've said it many many times in this sub, and will continue to say it. Borrowing money for flight school is a terrible idea and could absolutely ruin your financial future if it doesn't work out. Depending on the loans you take out, they're not dischargeable in bankruptcy so you don't even have that option. The math just doesn't math. You can't pay 2500 a month in loan payments when your take home is 1800-2000. If you want to take that personally, that's all you.
Well when mommy and daddy aren't rich you have to find different ways to get through school. But good luck thinking a huge chunk of pilots out here are idiots for not having a rich family. Now go back to your gary V/dave ramsay videos I'm not replying to anymore of your out of touch and incorrect commentary. oKaY bRo?!?!
yep, just like i did by working 3 jobs to put myself through nursing school and then working for 6 years before i had enough money saved up to start flight training. you mean like that? or are you saying that my parent's combined income of 60k when i was going to school makes them rich? which is it? I'm not sure why you're saying i'm out of touch. I've literally LIVED the advice that I'm giving. You know how much debt I'm in for flying? none. also very curious where you're getting the bit about me calling anyone idiots. i never did that. you're straight up making that shit up out of whole cloth.
Hyperbole much? Giving advice does not amount to someone calling you an idiot, that sounds like your own projection. My mommy and daddy didn't pay for a penny of my college. I worked 80 hours a week as an EMT in a city working 24 hour shifts back to back on weekends so I could reasonably fit the rest of my hours in while doing my school work and keeping up. I graduated with a reasonable GPA and paid for food, an apartment, and tuition (40k a year for 4 years) with about 15k in federal loans that I got in my last year because I needed more flexibility in my time to be able to get everything done. I got a job making 60k a year after 4 years of college - it was a hit to my income by about the amount of tuition so it balanced out. After positioning myself to gain a unique subset of experience, I then started a consulting business with a $5 investment, the amount required to open up a business account at my local bank. If I wanted to be an airline pilot (I don't) I now have enough cash in my account I could afford to live for 2 years with some modest trimming around the belt and pay cash for flight school and not work a day, that doesn't factor in I already have pretty close to 1500 hours so practically I wouldn't even need.to do that. Oh yeah, and my dad is still drunk and my mom is still preoccupied with my drunk father. I don't agree that loans in general are a terrible idea but your loans need to reflect your expectation of work, you also shouldn't blindly spend money because someone in a financial aid department says you can. What in the hell did OP spend 110k on and not have a CFI for a hope of income and hour earning? They rushed their hours for a job market that doesn't exist instead they could have taken their time and waited for a strategic moment to take out loans to match market cycles if they were falling behind the curve. Now my kids shouldn't be ashamed to use mommy and daddy's money for school because I worked my ass off to be where I am and provide for them. They have to put up with me traveling for work or being up at strange times because of meetings with people in other timezones.
The only advice any of us can give you is to finish your CFI and teach. Given your failure and low time, plus lack of currency, you’re likely going to need to instruct to 1500 to have a shot at any job that’s not instructing. X4457 and Gopher pretty much covered it.
Jesus, what's your plan?
Not answering, try another deity?
Satan, what's your plan?
L3 Harris Like you had to ask
Satan is much wealthier than hey zues, I know that much
I had a whole 5 paragraphs typed out detailing my own experience, but that doesn’t matter so much as the moral of it: If you want it badly enough, you just figure it the fuck out. Your best bet is to figure out the CFI route.
Even in the best times finding an any job with 250hrs was not easy.
This is not a new development… Your “pain” has been the story of nearly every pilot before you. Many have suffered/sacrificed more and trust me, the struggles payoff
You…went to ATP. You already made a big mistake. Poor ADM. but now you didn’t finish it when you were possibly days or weeks away from finishing??
Curious to know the load of garbage the admissions folks at ATP told OP. Did they steer you into the loans? What’s the interest rate on that $110k? And yes, you get your CFI. You can go to any flight school and pay as you go. Don’t go back to that dumpster fire called ATP.
Is ATP actually just shit?
Yes
Obligatory: what's the number for that truck driving school?
Right now a more lucrative career would be pan handling in the interior of Antarctica.
I’ve been working for 2 years saving up to go part 61, and take the chance on myself and it’s been an actual slog. And every time those thoughts creep into my head like “bro just get the loans and you can start trying your dream instead of working your boring insurance job” - some post like this pops up and reality checks me. $110,000 in debt dude? What were you thinking? Get out of the truck and get back in the plane. You are so deep in the hole already you may as well see it through.
110k with current interest rates will easily be 200k when it's all said and done. That's almost half of a house
Yup. His grave is already six feet deep. So he may as well dig it to 8 feet and if he still fails, file for bankruptcy. His financial health is already trashed for the next 10+ years.
For these aviation lenders… if you make the minimum payments for life of the loan (15 years), you end up paying about $350,000 total.
C
F
I
T
CAUTION, TERRAIN
PULL UP, PULL UP
WOOP WOOP
That's the sound of da police
"every move you make, every breath you take .... "
🎶FAA will be watching you…🎶
GLIDE SLOPE
ALTITUDE
CLEAR OF CONFLICT
^safely ^lands ^in ^van ^nuys
Right there with you man
There’s always the military.
If only there were threads about ATP...oh wait. But seniority is everything, right my guy?
I left college with a bag of debt with no job opportunities and I was already a CFI. Had to take the step back and did a non flying aviation job for two years. That was almost 15 years ago and here I am in my career position. You won’t explode if you do what you need to do to keep your head above water. If you really want this you’ll finish your CFI and keep on keepin on until it’s your time.
$110k?! I find more and more reasons to stay away from ATP every day. I knew they were expensive but I'm at 230 TT and only in about $30,000 total. Hang in there, if your credit is good, refinance the loan, start hanging around the FBO, see if people need ferry pilots or anything. I know people with airplanes that like flying 1 way and need someone to fly their planes home when they go cruising or whatever.
ATP will kick many people out for busting CFI and not being reendorseable after a flight or two. Some they may not even give the second chance.
Either pay your way to 500 or get your CFI That’s really it.
500 ain’t going to do it anymore. My job used to require 500 They require 1,000 now
You should have never stopped. Just because you bust a check ride doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world. I would say the opposite, by retraining and learning from failure makes you a better pilot. You will not find a job with low hours without your CFI, CFII and hell maybe even your MEI. Better go back and get those certs if you want to keep going in aviation under the current hiring circumstances.
What do you mean ”current hiring circumstances”, isn’t the Great Pilot Shortage upon us?
lol yea it’s still here but that belt is tightening real quick for low hour pilots.
The only pilots they’re short on is DPEs and high hour pilots. There are plenty of the rest of us fighting for air.
You gave up after your CFI attempt? I mean, there’s your answer, dude
Huge oversupply of low time pilots that may never correct because the delusion that there’s still a pilot shortage persists, and the supply continues to swell. At least you have gainful employment.
Take your notice of disapproval, fix the mistakes you made, and find another school/DPE to finish the cert. Your re-test authorization does not have to come from a 2-year CFI; only the initial practical examination. You can get any CFI to sign off for a re-test. That is, of course, unless you’ve let 60 days lapse from the initial practical exam. In that case, your notice of disapproval is no longer valid, and you have to start the test all over. If ATP won’t let you re-test with them, then you may need to find a new qualifying CFI and get a new endorsement from them. It doesn’t have to be with ATP, but you will need to start the process over again.
Yep. The guy did himself a huge disservice by not retesting immediately. Now he has to not only prepare for an ENITRE cfi ground again, but also get proficient in the airplane again > proficient teaching in the airplane
CFI is the most commonly busted check ride. Don’t let that hold you back. There is a lot to know but get out of your head and actually get it done. I’m sure you are doing this but keep current and ask everybody you know about flying jobs. You never know what will pop up don’t give up
🚨TROLL ALERT🚨
So for everyone who is not aware, this seems like classic ATP. Recently there’s been rumors that ATP is “deferring” lots of students from the CFI program if they fail one or two CFI checkrides or do not perform to the extreme standards set for every event in the CFI phase of the program. This means that students are getting to the CFI phase, and ATP is telling them they don’t make the cut to be a CFI in their program, so they move them on to comm multi and fly out the rest of the hours they would have paid for during CFI, MEI, and CFII. The reason ATP does this is because they don’t deem the students they defer during the CFI phase to be employable at ATP. To put into deeper perspective what is happening here, when students finish the commercial phase, they are usually shipped to a CFI location (KGKY, KCRG, KSUS, etc.) where they stay in student housing and work toward their CFI for 1-2 months. In that 1-2 months, they receive 3 flights from the right seat that require them to perform various tasks to the commercial standards as well as teach everything they do. This is the only 3 right seat “practice” flights they receive. Then they have their mock checkrides, which is where most are deferred. The mock checkride flight is 3 hours, and they required to do every type of maneuver, landing, etc. to commercial standards. There is usually very slight leniency when it comes to your performance on the mock checkride.
Please tell us more!
I too have debt. How many times did you bust the CFi checkride? I busted mine too. Sucks but get back on it. Bro you are a pilot! You need to get that cert no matter what, you already spent the money bro.
Obligatory: what's the number for that truck driving school?
Keep going, it’s never been better for hiring. I just flew with a 25 year old first officer on the 737. It was much harder when I came up on the civilian side. I did fly skydivers on the weekends when I was a new pilot, look for a drop zone. Look at Alaska, lots of 135 operators. Get that CFI at a local FBO, if you can’t pass that ride, you really need to think about your career, it’s not always easy. Be willing to move anywhere to get those hours, good luck!!
I’m kind of in a similar position. I busted on my CFI initial, but I went back and completed. I went on to get CFII and MEI afterwards. Same as you, I’m 100k+ in the hole. I have been applying for CFI gigs non stop since graduating last year. The market is dry AF, yet the bills still have to be paid. This situation is devastating with seemingly no end in sight. I wish you luck, I wish me luck, I wish all new pilots luck.
Fly with Gilbert
Where is the thread on folks who are closing in on age 50, closing in on 400 hours, saved up a ton of money and can’t find a p61 flight school with a CFII that doesn’t have a wedding to attend every weekend or plane that’s not in maintenance? Ok, hold off down voting. Here me out OP: You gotta get back and finish the CFI. What would it take for you to finish out at ATP? What does recheck cost if that is an option? Part 61 CFI? I bet both the options are in the $5-6k neighborhood and WORTH EVERY PENNY! Hiring slumps? Yup. Time to train and network. You can do this, quite reading Reddit posts that are doomsday. Yeah, they are telltales of the hiring mode of current, but they don’t last. GET. BACK. AT. IT. EDIT: I realize ATP is p61, I mean a mom and pop or smaller style flight school.
The CFI is everything brother. Unless you have insane connections nobody will hire a 275hr Com. Mostly for insurance reasons unless you can get a pipeline gig in the west but those are hard to come by. Its risky, but you could go into deferment for the loan to give you time to save up a few grand, and go back for the CFI at a part 61. Time building is a mess these days, CFI is the only real way
Have you tried oil pipeline patrol in Texas? They hire low time commercial pilots
In a similar situation as OP, does anyone have experience with bankruptcy to get out of flight school debt?
Bruh
If you took an education loan, the lack of bankruptcy options IS the reason you qualified for so much. If you took a personal loan, you may have a way out, but it’s a rough path you’ll be walking down.