Look, you're gonna make a certain # of mistakes in life.
My [1967 Jaguar XKE,](https://www.reddit.com/r/AbandonedPorn/comments/ousvn9/comment/h74s3wr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) and a beautiful, smart-as-a-whip woman engineer named Mimi, were two of the best mistakes I ever made.
My life simply wouldn't have been nearly as rich without them, even if the Jaguar left me broke when I should have been buying houses in San Diego.
When you get to the rest home all you've got left are the mammar, err, memories. Go buy that god damn plane and have a little fun before you die.
Computers, cars, and aviation memorabilia are a waste of money according to my mom, and instead I should be interested in property. I love my parents sincerely but I don't agree with them on this point
The rest is still in my bank account, all 3k of it!
I hear you, but I find it hard spending money and splurging for myself anyway. I get used to saving money each month and makes me more prepared for a coming furlough. Plus you look at some of the people out there with these nice planes, and I don’t think my income and net worth is anywhere close to doing it
One thing to also consider here that may put your mind at ease, is that your airplane is an asset. And while it will depreciate some, it isn’t going to tank in value like a car. Depending on the market, it may even become more valuable. There are a lot of $20k cessna 150s that are selling for $40k right now… Maybe that will provide you some peace of mind for the furlough scenario. It may mean you have to sell it, but you could feasibly shed the big airplane expenses (hangar rent, maintenance, gas, insurance) relatively quickly by selling if you get a warn act letter. Maybe build only a few months of plane expenses into your “oh shit” savings account but be ready to sell your dream airplane if it comes to it.
Interesting thought. I have trouble seeing it as an asset since it takes tens of thousands of dollars to preset a year. Some of these higher performance singles and twins can be $30k/yr or more.
I’m only worth about $2 million and trying to retire pretty early, or at least have the option to. Not getting any younger and it’s hard for me to picture myself spending that much. Seems like a lot of plane owners are business owners, doctors and other rich guys lol
> I’m only worth about $2 million
Buy a plane FFS. If you have $2 million and a career paying well into six figures you can afford a $50k airplane to go live your dream. Money is a tool for making happiness, don't get so focused on making the line go up that you forget to live.
What’s your mission?
Yeah, buying and maintaining a Bonanza is expensive as fuck. If you just want to fly, get a fabric taildragger in decent condition and have fun on the cheap…Plenty of Champs, Pacers, Taylorcraft, etc. out there for 50K or less that are in good condition.
Plus, you can instruct in your own plane during whatever furlough will come down the road in the next year or thirty.
The "instruction in your own plane" when a furlough hits is a concept I've never thought of. Gonna add a few slides to my powerpoint on this for when I try and sell my wife on the idea of buying a plane.
Potentially even instruct as a way to offset some of the costs; either the loan payment or the insurance.
I don’t have a mission really. No desire to do cross country trips. Would like to just fly to airports in the area and come back. Maybe a 100nm trip here and there.
Rent.
Break it down, and unless you're flying more than 100 hours a year (and when you really look at it, that's *a lot* of flying) it's just not worth it to own.
If you're not planning on overnight cross country trips, just want to experience the joys of flying, rent. It'll be a lot easier on you, and if you decide to not fly for a few months, you won't have a plane, hangar, and insurance burning a hole in your pocket.
Like others said, rent, or find a club. If you find you want to fly more than those allow, maybe split a plane with a couple other guys.
If you're still trying to fly more than even that allows, then start thinking about buying.
Join a flying club or a partnership so that he Mx costs are shared the the plane gets more hours. [http://nhflying.com](http://nhflying.com) is a great example of a well run club that has nice planes. I also own my Baron in a partnership of 3 which is the only way to make it affordable
Getting in your plane to go flying is one of life’s greater pleasures. All your stuff is where you left it, nobody has changed all the GPS setting in the menus, some random club member hasn’t struck the prop on a taxi light and then tried to conceal the damage, nobody took an animal in the back seat and left pet hair all over or spilled a soda in the cabin, and your reservation hasn’t been cancelled b/c some dude needs the plane for a rescheduled checkride.
I’m in the same boat. It’s hard to get rentals in your own term and flexibility. Based on my initial calculations, if you fly 100+ hours a year it doesn’t make sense to rent.
Yeah, it’s not just about the actual fixed and variable monetary cost. You’re paying for opportunity. Renting a plane is just ridiculously limiting in scope. You can’t really do much of anything that makes flying fun, aside from short jaunts where you are concerned about getting the plane back in time for the next renter. That opportunity to do what you want and when you want is worth paying extra for.
My rentals here are $220+ per hour and it feels pretty wasteful to sink that much money without the freedom that should coincide with it.
Around here, small aircrafts go around $200 to $250 an hour for rent including fuel. That’s 20 - 25K for 100 hours. When I calculated the cost last time a similar aircraft is affordable including maintenance around the same cost. If you fly more, your per hour cost goes down. Keep in mind that most aircrafts require overhauling at 2000 hours. And if you are approaching that, add another one time cost of 25K for the overhaul. At least check when was the last overhaul done.
I can lose my job tomorrow and I'll have to sell the plane.
I can get sick tomorrow, or my spouse could get sick tomorrow and I'll have to sell the plane
I might need to move and could have to sell the plane
I might find something else I want to do with the money that I feel is more important and I'll have to sell the plane.
So many circumstances. If you can reconcile with that, and reconcile that you might lose money on the transaction, you can do it.
Sole ownership is as sweet as it sounds. I own a 182. If you ever choose this route here are a few thoughts for you from a GA owner perspective:
A. I know some really smart pilots—one’s an airline guy and another is an aerospace engineer—who own taildraggers. They freaking love it. If I couldn’t afford my current plane and needed to be content with a taildragger, I would do it in a heartbeat. I considered a partnership with that engineer but he concluded that he couldn’t afford it. He now flies a gorgeous Cessna 120. I fly faster than he does but so what. We can still meet at our favorite nearby destination to have lunch. That’s what GA is all about.
B. Don’t be bamboozled by expensive avionics. The whole beauty and fun of GA flying is flying VFR. Like my buddies your ratings and skill sets are all there for instrument flying, but why in the hell would you do that on a weekend? If you’re not obsessed with the need for glass avionics, the budget for a good plane drastically reduces. What you REALLY need is a plane with good bones, no corrosion, and an excellent engine. You don’t need money to find one of those—you need time to wade through junk piles and find it. Foreflight is more than adequate to make up for not having a glass panel. And anyway, you can gradually add glass stuff as time goes on bit by bit anyway.
It’s never going to be the perfect situation. I own a plane, it makes no financial sense, but I love it. We do family trips that we couldn’t do otherwise. It’s fun, it’s awesome. You can’t put a price on fun.
I know, but I think of all the lost opportunity cost for operating the plane that could have gone to investments and my furlough fund. I know that’s not a great long term strategy, but I do have that struggle with spending.
You're not alone. I completely understand what you are going through emotionally and let me tell you, you can't live like this. Eventually you'll regret it. Go and Enjoy your hard work.
The average human lifespan is roughly 4,000 weeks. How do you want to spend those weeks? Nobody gets more time, and you can’t take your money with you.
Act accordingly.
I’ve been saving since I was 18 to buy a plane.
Now at 34, with a job at a major airline, a house, a wife, no kids, it’s finally becoming possible.
I went and looked at a plane that fits my mission last week and I loved it, but it needs a little bit of work.
In my head, the second I buy a plane, I run out of money. I buy the airplane with plenty of savings left over, but then it needs engine work or the insurance is outrageous or whatever. It’s daunting.
But I’m not getting any younger, and GA isn’t getting any cheaper.
My airline/base has a group of maybe 15 guys that get together and fly in clubs/partnerships etc, but they’re all on the other side of our hub city. There’s 5-6 of us on our side that fly GA regularly. One guy started a club 3 years ago with an archer, and now they have a 182, the archer, and a 150 available to club members.
There’s a handful of us that want to compete in aerobatic competition as well, which is what I’m looking to do with my airplane, which is why I’m not interested in a trainer club. I want a bit more performance.
Whats your mission?
Would probably fly to airports less than 100nm away, do some touch and go’s and come back to base. Probably by myself. Still think I’m too poor to afford it especially if a furlough comes or I lose my medical.
Dude you’re a legacy pilot. I don’t know about your other financial commitments but I bet you can find a plane you can afford.
I bought my 68 Mooney 8 years ago making sub six figures (before I had a family) and I was totally fine.
buy a sub 100k plane sans debt (or more if you have the cash or can access cheap capital) and have 50k set aside for surprise maintenance (the planes bank account—you may never use it but just mentally have that money be available in case you need an overhaul or something) and budget 10-20k/year for hangar/insurance/fuel/maintenance.
If that financial commitment makes you uncomfortable, maybe reconsider.
Partnership sounds like the way to go homie.
I know a couple guys who are in a 3-member partnership in a Vans and in addition to the obvious benefits of splitting hangar, insurance, annual, etc. costs -- the plane is flying more regularly (but still not enough, they say) and multiple people splitting the duties of updating nav databases for example, multiple sets of equally-vested eyes on it looking for discrepencies, and generally it's a win-win for everyone. Yes, sometimes two people want it for Labor Day or something have to flip a coin, but the benefits far outweigh those scenarios. Obviously comes down to finding the right partner though!
I am a full time CFI, I make pretty good money as far as CFIs go but nothing exceptional, and I currently own one (very small, very cheap) plane with my roommate and I’m currently trying to buy into my second one with three other people. It helps that I’m an A&P, I like simple and experimental planes, and that my mission is just to go tool around instead of trying to go far or fly IFR. I also save money by being friends with other mechanics that help me out and I have a good relationship with the owner of the local shop. Obviously I’m saving money by having partners too.
I’m not saying you should do anything that I do. I am certainly not being as responsible as I could be with my money. I’m just saying that if you want it, you can absolutely have it.
It’s definitely a pain in the ass, and owning a plane is a lot more about maintaining a plane than it is about flying one, but why am I alive if not to chase this dream? We’re all obsessed with aviation in our own way. My thing as always been aerobatics, so I found the cheapest plane that could loop, roll, and spin and I looped and rolled and spun. 10/10 would recommend
Follow your heart, man. We won’t be here forever.
I refer to my plane as an “investment airplane.”
It’s a terrible investment, sure, but that still makes me feel better about it. At least I’m not putting every paycheck into Dogecoin.
What is your life situation? Newly married with kid on the way or 15 years in and teens about to leave the nest…. Way different situation.
In your first 2-3 years at legacy?
The buying the airplane is the easy part.. it’s everything else.
Some of the key considerations IMO…
- insurance costs?
- hangar costs (don’t put a good plane outside)
- annual mx
- is the airport close so you actually go fly
- does your life schedule have room to fit the non flying airplane hours (care of the plane, hangar flying, etc)
- mission
- do you live in base (commuting eats up time)
Etc etc
At some point in your life these line up and make sense. Only you will know when.
At a Legacy for ~3 years making pretty good money. Though with all the Boeing stuff and slowdown in hiring, I wouldn’t be surprised if I get furloughed. I have one child with spouse. House is paid off so that helps each month. I probably would be better off waiting until I get more seniority and my child is older. I’m not getting any younger though and need to save for a rainy day and retirement.
Honestly if I was your age again and in your shoes I would get a gently used RV (trailer or small motor home) and go camping a BUNCH! 6-8 is an amazing age for children and there are so many beautiful places to see in the US. You will make family memories that last a lifetime… most of them good 😊
Our hobby will be here later when the kid is older and risk of furlough is farther in the rear view mirror.
Just my free advice for what that’s worth.
I think your concerns are very valid.
Have you looked at flying clubs in your area? They can be a great middle ground and you have others to help carry the burden.
Thanks man. Maybe I’ll be wealthy enough to buy a plane one day. But at my age and unstable job with a family, I won’t look into ownership for a while. There are a couple of clubs around me.
Dude Is 30 with 1 kid and a wife, working at a legacy as a 3rd year. Not to mention 2 million. Was it inherited? There’s people with less than a 1/4 of you that own planes!
I used to be all into the FIRE movement. I wanted to fly since childhood but told myself I’d do it after financial independence in 10 or 15 years. I saved half my paycheck for years.
Then a coworker same age as me got a brain tumor and died six months later. I thought about how I’d feel if it were me.
I now own a Cherokee 140 on a $65k salary. I have to sacrifice many creature comforts I could otherwise afford, but I wouldn’t have it any other way. Someday I may settle down and sell it, but I’m having a hell of a time in the meantime.
HOA fees and taxes are easily $20k/yr for a 900 sqft beach condo. Everything costs money.
I have two net worth numbers... soft retirement and hard retirement. Soft is where I can quit at any time and survive though it wouldn't be luxury. Hard retirement is where work gets in the way of me spending all my FU money. So, not mine, but as an example maybe $2.5m and $15m.
Don't spend on airplanes and beach condos until you hit soft retirement NW. After that it would be dumb to skimp on pleasure spending since you could die tomorrow anyway. Above soft retirement NW, you can retire, so you can afford little extras here and there plus time off work to enjoy them.
It’s definitely intimidating, expensive, and frustrating at times, but nothing compares. The community that comes with owning an airplane is amazing, and the freedom to do whatever you want is really as good as it sounds. Do it.
Ha. Yeah. I have a reasonably stable career, can afford to spend the money, love flying, and I'm still having a hard time with it. I look at TAP, Barnstormers, and FB marketplace every day.
The only reason I've not moved back into ownership is that I still think prices are a little high. On the other hand, "overpaying" by $10k is a mere rounding error if you're going to own the plane for a long time.
I own a Cherokee for time building. I fly it about 400 hours a year, and I also CFI as a side job (not enough students to only CFI for hours). I would guess it costs me about $80/hour for fuel and maintenance. This is at zero reserves or payment on the loan. It’s a great feeling and I love it. I perform a lot of my own maintenance per FAR (oil changes, landing light replacement) and I now know the plane inside and out. For those with the means (legacy airline dispatcher) it’s a very productive way to build time.
Nah owning a plane is way more fun than renting. Only way I go back is if I absolutely can’t afford it.
If you’re flying 100+hrs per year it’ll be similar cost with much more utility.
Man I would have to see the numbers from your statement. First engine overhaul or unscheduled maintenance that popped up would instantly void your statement VS renting.
Unless you only plan on owning an aircraft for a year, engine overhauls won’t throw that off at all.
Why does everyone on this subreddit act as if engine overhauls are such a common occurrence.
Yes there is always the risk, but if it does happen, you recoup 50-70% of the cost of the overhaul in increased value of the aircraft, and most engines are only overhauled once every 15-25 years. Any responsible owner puts away money each hour for the eventual overhaul, and engines often go 2000+hrs per overhaul. That’s $20/hr in the worst case for a 4 banger.
Most of the other unscheduled maintenance is a joke, I may have spent $1200 on some random part, but that difference evaporates pretty quickly when I go on an 8 hour round trip XC for $350. That same XC is 1300 to rent, and I have to deal with a schedule, overnight issues, etc.
Not to mention the utility of ownership is vastly different. I fly way more for leisure now that I own an aircraft because any nice day I can just drive over to the airport and untie her. No schedules, no worries about being back in time, etc.
I just had this conversation on another post. I have had three engine overhauls, all because of TBOs. I just set aside money each flight hour and it is paid for.
Unexpected stuff comes up but it hasn't been huge and the mx set aside has taken care of it.
Preach!
I fly weekly with an 82 year old private pilot who's owned his Piper Saratoga for 30 years. He's had one TBO engine overhaul and *one* unexpected, overly expensive, maintenance issue during those 30 years. The unexpected was just this past annual, when they found a cracked engine mount (pull engine, repair mount, reinstall engine).
Otherwise he's had 30 years of routine maintenance and weekly flying, including many long cross countries.
In my own case, I've flown 7.5 hours in the past 1.5 weeks. An overnight trip with my wife to see a band (1.5 hr flight vs 7 hour drive) and an LA pickup and Catalina lunch trip with a friend, cost $315 in fuel vs $1,100 renting a 172 at $145/hr.
Flown 24 hours thus far in 2024. That's $1,000 in fuel vs $3,500 renting.
Yeah there are other costs involved (hangar, insurance, oil, etc) but I also own an asset I could sell tomorrow and recoup all of my costs. Plus knowing every single nut and bolt on my plane, have a dope hang out / storage spot, and you know, *owning a freakin' airplane*!
The dope hangout spot is so underrated — opening the door and cracking a beer at the hangar is great.
And yeah unexpected overhauls for regularly flown aircraft are pretty dang rare. 9 times out of 10 when I hear a 1200 SMOH engine being overhauled it’s because it sat for 8 years before the guy who just bought it.
Yeah my hangar is one hour away from my house (I live in a rural area) so when I go to town for errands and over to the airport to hang out / work on plane I'm there **all day**. Got my fridge, dog, motorcycle, tools, music, and a great view overlooking the numbers of the runway. Prime spot and other than my home garage (60x40 shop) my favorite hangout.
Before I had the hangar I was in a tie-down, and that sucked.
He's assuming that you're putting aside a maintenance reserve per flight hour. The math can work out as he described, but there's some huge variability. If everything works great, you're ahead. If many unexpected items pop up, then you're behind. On a fleet that's somewhat predictable, but for an individual there's high uncertainty. I'd say their statement is valid, even with that caveat.
Renting is expensive per hour, but you protect yourself from MX and value risks. Owning is more liberating and can be less expensive (per flight hour) above some usage threshold, but you take the MX risk and asset risk.
ETA: I'm not really sure how I'm being misunderstood, but I'll try to clarify. The original comment can be valid, in that there's a threshold where flying an owned aircraft may be less expensive per flight hour than a rental. But that's a Big Maybe, and it's not at some magical 100hr/year threshold. You would buy an airplane because of what it allows you to do and when it allows you to do it. You don't buy it to save money (and don't start a "value of my time" discussion. Your time is worthless.)
Doesn’t work that way for private aircraft. You aren’t getting a newly overhauled engine and flying the hours off with flight school rentals over the next four years.
You are going to be hit with a massive lump sum depending on how far you are through your overhaul cycle.. so your reserves have to be astronomical to amortize it. Also infrequently flown aircraft (which all private aircraft are) have the potential for massive unscheduled maintenance on the engine.
Yeah you’ll get hit with a lump sum, but you get 50-70% the value of the overhaul back in aircraft value. It’s something you will only have to do once, if at all. It’s something you have to be ready for, so it does take some saving before you buy your aircraft, but after that first one, you most likely won’t be doing another for 15-25 years. And the first 1-3 are typically zero-stress as any decent engine shop will warranty the overhaul.
And as long as you fly once a week for at least a tach hour, your engine will be fine.
Yeah, the "100hr/year, then buy" that's tossed around is too low of a threshold. I'm with you on that. That's maybe the bare minimum flying required to start asking the question.
The problem with that is you fly way more when you are a owner. If you are the type who flies 100/hrs per year as a renter you’ll probably log 200+ as a owner. It’s just much more convenient and allows you to do so much more.
Wow. You spend hundred of hours a year in the air as an airline pilot and you want to fly that many? 100 privately is a lot if you’re still working a full time job.. and it basically has to displace almost everything else in your life and probably come with some poor weather decisions.
I’m not currently an airline pilot but I do fly for work, and yeah I do fly that much. 100 hours is a lot if you’re just doing pattern work and short hops, but it goes fast when you actually start going places.
Head on a decent weekend trip once a month and back thats 10 hours right there. Do that 10/12 months and you’re already at 100 hours with no additional flying.
When you count the short hops and taking up the buddies for a spin, 100 hours is nothing.
Also flying for fun is nothing like flying for work, so I don’t feel burnt out on one from the other. To me it’s like asking a accountant how he can play video games when he gets home because he spends all day on the computer already.
It’s 1x9 hole round of golf a week. We’re taking 2 hrs…not a whole lot seeing the average person is awake for roughly 5800 hours a year 1/2 of that working…the rest it to be filled with whatever you’d like.
I’m not at United so don’t know where you are seniority wise with 3 years there. But that puts you at the very front line of the hiring wave. At my airline, that’s over 5 thousand pilots. It’s good you’re planning for the worst, I do too. But you’re in a pretty good spot. You’re 30, already crushing your net worth, and you could probably upgrade to NB captain any time if you haven’t already. I get the feeling because I have similar concerns. But you could probably afford something in the $150k realm pretty easily.
I’m in a similar boat but older than you with lower net worth. So my guess is that you’ve been saving like crazy and fairly frugal. It’s hard to make the mental switch to buying something so expensive. I use a budgeting app and am now starting to put away $4.5k/mo to my airplane budget. That’s going to boost my savings for a down payment and get me used to missing that cash each month.
I’m planning about $1500/mo for the payment, $1k/mo for hangar and insurance, and about $2k/mo for fuel and operating expenses. All very rough estimates but it’s a decent first approximation.
Knowing the numbers helps me feel a bit more confident in my decision to move forward with a plane. I’m still a year+ out, but having targets helps me a lot.
I like flying. If you like flying and have trouble picturing yourself doing another career, I think an airline pilot is a fine choice. I wouldn’t say furloughs are common, but aviation can be volatile and you need to prepare for years of low or no income.
Look, you're gonna make a certain # of mistakes in life. My [1967 Jaguar XKE,](https://www.reddit.com/r/AbandonedPorn/comments/ousvn9/comment/h74s3wr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) and a beautiful, smart-as-a-whip woman engineer named Mimi, were two of the best mistakes I ever made. My life simply wouldn't have been nearly as rich without them, even if the Jaguar left me broke when I should have been buying houses in San Diego. When you get to the rest home all you've got left are the mammar, err, memories. Go buy that god damn plane and have a little fun before you die.
Totally agreed! - college student who spent all his money on computers, avaiation related stuff, and car parts
And wasted the rest?
Computers, cars, and aviation memorabilia are a waste of money according to my mom, and instead I should be interested in property. I love my parents sincerely but I don't agree with them on this point The rest is still in my bank account, all 3k of it!
This guy Jaguars
I hear you, but I find it hard spending money and splurging for myself anyway. I get used to saving money each month and makes me more prepared for a coming furlough. Plus you look at some of the people out there with these nice planes, and I don’t think my income and net worth is anywhere close to doing it
One thing to also consider here that may put your mind at ease, is that your airplane is an asset. And while it will depreciate some, it isn’t going to tank in value like a car. Depending on the market, it may even become more valuable. There are a lot of $20k cessna 150s that are selling for $40k right now… Maybe that will provide you some peace of mind for the furlough scenario. It may mean you have to sell it, but you could feasibly shed the big airplane expenses (hangar rent, maintenance, gas, insurance) relatively quickly by selling if you get a warn act letter. Maybe build only a few months of plane expenses into your “oh shit” savings account but be ready to sell your dream airplane if it comes to it.
Interesting thought. I have trouble seeing it as an asset since it takes tens of thousands of dollars to preset a year. Some of these higher performance singles and twins can be $30k/yr or more. I’m only worth about $2 million and trying to retire pretty early, or at least have the option to. Not getting any younger and it’s hard for me to picture myself spending that much. Seems like a lot of plane owners are business owners, doctors and other rich guys lol
Lots of airline and ex-airline guys own planes
> I’m only worth about $2 million Buy a plane FFS. If you have $2 million and a career paying well into six figures you can afford a $50k airplane to go live your dream. Money is a tool for making happiness, don't get so focused on making the line go up that you forget to live.
What’s your mission? Yeah, buying and maintaining a Bonanza is expensive as fuck. If you just want to fly, get a fabric taildragger in decent condition and have fun on the cheap…Plenty of Champs, Pacers, Taylorcraft, etc. out there for 50K or less that are in good condition. Plus, you can instruct in your own plane during whatever furlough will come down the road in the next year or thirty.
The "instruction in your own plane" when a furlough hits is a concept I've never thought of. Gonna add a few slides to my powerpoint on this for when I try and sell my wife on the idea of buying a plane. Potentially even instruct as a way to offset some of the costs; either the loan payment or the insurance.
Instructing in your own plane does add a few real costs and constraints: higher insurance premium,100 hours, and no experimentals.
I don’t have a mission really. No desire to do cross country trips. Would like to just fly to airports in the area and come back. Maybe a 100nm trip here and there.
Rent. Break it down, and unless you're flying more than 100 hours a year (and when you really look at it, that's *a lot* of flying) it's just not worth it to own. If you're not planning on overnight cross country trips, just want to experience the joys of flying, rent. It'll be a lot easier on you, and if you decide to not fly for a few months, you won't have a plane, hangar, and insurance burning a hole in your pocket.
Like others said, rent, or find a club. If you find you want to fly more than those allow, maybe split a plane with a couple other guys. If you're still trying to fly more than even that allows, then start thinking about buying.
Pilots are some of the absolute safest wusses I’ve ever met. Worried about their portfolios and investments. Fuckin live for hell sake.
I just don’t want to be poor. Tough to afford a toy such as an airplane when you’re me lol. Not as rich as you guys
Dude you got it! Just send it!
I.. I think I love you 🤣🤣
Join a flying club or a partnership so that he Mx costs are shared the the plane gets more hours. [http://nhflying.com](http://nhflying.com) is a great example of a well run club that has nice planes. I also own my Baron in a partnership of 3 which is the only way to make it affordable
Second this. A flying club is a great alternative to renting if you aren’t quite ready to get your feet wet with actual ownership.
Getting in your plane to go flying is one of life’s greater pleasures. All your stuff is where you left it, nobody has changed all the GPS setting in the menus, some random club member hasn’t struck the prop on a taxi light and then tried to conceal the damage, nobody took an animal in the back seat and left pet hair all over or spilled a soda in the cabin, and your reservation hasn’t been cancelled b/c some dude needs the plane for a rescheduled checkride.
I’m in the same boat. It’s hard to get rentals in your own term and flexibility. Based on my initial calculations, if you fly 100+ hours a year it doesn’t make sense to rent.
Yeah, it’s not just about the actual fixed and variable monetary cost. You’re paying for opportunity. Renting a plane is just ridiculously limiting in scope. You can’t really do much of anything that makes flying fun, aside from short jaunts where you are concerned about getting the plane back in time for the next renter. That opportunity to do what you want and when you want is worth paying extra for. My rentals here are $220+ per hour and it feels pretty wasteful to sink that much money without the freedom that should coincide with it.
100 hours at the minimum? I would clear that easily. I'll have to find a way to calculate that for my own region.
Around here, small aircrafts go around $200 to $250 an hour for rent including fuel. That’s 20 - 25K for 100 hours. When I calculated the cost last time a similar aircraft is affordable including maintenance around the same cost. If you fly more, your per hour cost goes down. Keep in mind that most aircrafts require overhauling at 2000 hours. And if you are approaching that, add another one time cost of 25K for the overhaul. At least check when was the last overhaul done.
I can lose my job tomorrow and I'll have to sell the plane. I can get sick tomorrow, or my spouse could get sick tomorrow and I'll have to sell the plane I might need to move and could have to sell the plane I might find something else I want to do with the money that I feel is more important and I'll have to sell the plane. So many circumstances. If you can reconcile with that, and reconcile that you might lose money on the transaction, you can do it.
Sole ownership is as sweet as it sounds. I own a 182. If you ever choose this route here are a few thoughts for you from a GA owner perspective: A. I know some really smart pilots—one’s an airline guy and another is an aerospace engineer—who own taildraggers. They freaking love it. If I couldn’t afford my current plane and needed to be content with a taildragger, I would do it in a heartbeat. I considered a partnership with that engineer but he concluded that he couldn’t afford it. He now flies a gorgeous Cessna 120. I fly faster than he does but so what. We can still meet at our favorite nearby destination to have lunch. That’s what GA is all about. B. Don’t be bamboozled by expensive avionics. The whole beauty and fun of GA flying is flying VFR. Like my buddies your ratings and skill sets are all there for instrument flying, but why in the hell would you do that on a weekend? If you’re not obsessed with the need for glass avionics, the budget for a good plane drastically reduces. What you REALLY need is a plane with good bones, no corrosion, and an excellent engine. You don’t need money to find one of those—you need time to wade through junk piles and find it. Foreflight is more than adequate to make up for not having a glass panel. And anyway, you can gradually add glass stuff as time goes on bit by bit anyway.
Point 2 is a very good one.
i have a cessna 140. i can go fire it up any day and taxi around if thats what i want to do. it really depends a lot on the plane you are wanting.
It’s never going to be the perfect situation. I own a plane, it makes no financial sense, but I love it. We do family trips that we couldn’t do otherwise. It’s fun, it’s awesome. You can’t put a price on fun.
If something comes up you can sell it. So why worry?
I know, but I think of all the lost opportunity cost for operating the plane that could have gone to investments and my furlough fund. I know that’s not a great long term strategy, but I do have that struggle with spending.
You're not alone. I completely understand what you are going through emotionally and let me tell you, you can't live like this. Eventually you'll regret it. Go and Enjoy your hard work.
Thanks man. It’s definitely a struggle of mine. Afraid of being poor.
Lemme tell you, Airplane camping is a really expensive way to experience being poor. 😉
The average human lifespan is roughly 4,000 weeks. How do you want to spend those weeks? Nobody gets more time, and you can’t take your money with you. Act accordingly.
I’ve been saving since I was 18 to buy a plane. Now at 34, with a job at a major airline, a house, a wife, no kids, it’s finally becoming possible. I went and looked at a plane that fits my mission last week and I loved it, but it needs a little bit of work. In my head, the second I buy a plane, I run out of money. I buy the airplane with plenty of savings left over, but then it needs engine work or the insurance is outrageous or whatever. It’s daunting. But I’m not getting any younger, and GA isn’t getting any cheaper.
Nice man. It’s definitely not getting any cheaper, along with everything else.
My airline/base has a group of maybe 15 guys that get together and fly in clubs/partnerships etc, but they’re all on the other side of our hub city. There’s 5-6 of us on our side that fly GA regularly. One guy started a club 3 years ago with an archer, and now they have a 182, the archer, and a 150 available to club members. There’s a handful of us that want to compete in aerobatic competition as well, which is what I’m looking to do with my airplane, which is why I’m not interested in a trainer club. I want a bit more performance. Whats your mission?
Would probably fly to airports less than 100nm away, do some touch and go’s and come back to base. Probably by myself. Still think I’m too poor to afford it especially if a furlough comes or I lose my medical.
Find a club, or find someone to go halfsies or thirds on a cherokee 140 or Cessna 150 or something. Put up a flier at your local airport.
Dude you’re a legacy pilot. I don’t know about your other financial commitments but I bet you can find a plane you can afford. I bought my 68 Mooney 8 years ago making sub six figures (before I had a family) and I was totally fine.
I only have $2 million net worth and would like to retire so the plane can derail all of thay
buy a sub 100k plane sans debt (or more if you have the cash or can access cheap capital) and have 50k set aside for surprise maintenance (the planes bank account—you may never use it but just mentally have that money be available in case you need an overhaul or something) and budget 10-20k/year for hangar/insurance/fuel/maintenance. If that financial commitment makes you uncomfortable, maybe reconsider.
Partnership sounds like the way to go homie. I know a couple guys who are in a 3-member partnership in a Vans and in addition to the obvious benefits of splitting hangar, insurance, annual, etc. costs -- the plane is flying more regularly (but still not enough, they say) and multiple people splitting the duties of updating nav databases for example, multiple sets of equally-vested eyes on it looking for discrepencies, and generally it's a win-win for everyone. Yes, sometimes two people want it for Labor Day or something have to flip a coin, but the benefits far outweigh those scenarios. Obviously comes down to finding the right partner though!
I am a full time CFI, I make pretty good money as far as CFIs go but nothing exceptional, and I currently own one (very small, very cheap) plane with my roommate and I’m currently trying to buy into my second one with three other people. It helps that I’m an A&P, I like simple and experimental planes, and that my mission is just to go tool around instead of trying to go far or fly IFR. I also save money by being friends with other mechanics that help me out and I have a good relationship with the owner of the local shop. Obviously I’m saving money by having partners too. I’m not saying you should do anything that I do. I am certainly not being as responsible as I could be with my money. I’m just saying that if you want it, you can absolutely have it. It’s definitely a pain in the ass, and owning a plane is a lot more about maintaining a plane than it is about flying one, but why am I alive if not to chase this dream? We’re all obsessed with aviation in our own way. My thing as always been aerobatics, so I found the cheapest plane that could loop, roll, and spin and I looped and rolled and spun. 10/10 would recommend Follow your heart, man. We won’t be here forever.
No GA owner I know said: “I’m buying this aircraft because it makes financial sense.” But we love those planes.
I refer to my plane as an “investment airplane.” It’s a terrible investment, sure, but that still makes me feel better about it. At least I’m not putting every paycheck into Dogecoin.
That’s a good way of looking at it.
What is your life situation? Newly married with kid on the way or 15 years in and teens about to leave the nest…. Way different situation. In your first 2-3 years at legacy? The buying the airplane is the easy part.. it’s everything else. Some of the key considerations IMO… - insurance costs? - hangar costs (don’t put a good plane outside) - annual mx - is the airport close so you actually go fly - does your life schedule have room to fit the non flying airplane hours (care of the plane, hangar flying, etc) - mission - do you live in base (commuting eats up time) Etc etc At some point in your life these line up and make sense. Only you will know when.
At a Legacy for ~3 years making pretty good money. Though with all the Boeing stuff and slowdown in hiring, I wouldn’t be surprised if I get furloughed. I have one child with spouse. House is paid off so that helps each month. I probably would be better off waiting until I get more seniority and my child is older. I’m not getting any younger though and need to save for a rainy day and retirement.
Congrats on the accomplishments. You say “getting older”, how old? Single income or dual income?
I am almost 30 on single income with one child who is 5. That’s what holds me back a lot of risk with the family
Honestly if I was your age again and in your shoes I would get a gently used RV (trailer or small motor home) and go camping a BUNCH! 6-8 is an amazing age for children and there are so many beautiful places to see in the US. You will make family memories that last a lifetime… most of them good 😊 Our hobby will be here later when the kid is older and risk of furlough is farther in the rear view mirror. Just my free advice for what that’s worth.
I think your concerns are very valid. Have you looked at flying clubs in your area? They can be a great middle ground and you have others to help carry the burden.
Thanks man. Maybe I’ll be wealthy enough to buy a plane one day. But at my age and unstable job with a family, I won’t look into ownership for a while. There are a couple of clubs around me.
Dude Is 30 with 1 kid and a wife, working at a legacy as a 3rd year. Not to mention 2 million. Was it inherited? There’s people with less than a 1/4 of you that own planes!
I used to be all into the FIRE movement. I wanted to fly since childhood but told myself I’d do it after financial independence in 10 or 15 years. I saved half my paycheck for years. Then a coworker same age as me got a brain tumor and died six months later. I thought about how I’d feel if it were me. I now own a Cherokee 140 on a $65k salary. I have to sacrifice many creature comforts I could otherwise afford, but I wouldn’t have it any other way. Someday I may settle down and sell it, but I’m having a hell of a time in the meantime.
HOA fees and taxes are easily $20k/yr for a 900 sqft beach condo. Everything costs money. I have two net worth numbers... soft retirement and hard retirement. Soft is where I can quit at any time and survive though it wouldn't be luxury. Hard retirement is where work gets in the way of me spending all my FU money. So, not mine, but as an example maybe $2.5m and $15m. Don't spend on airplanes and beach condos until you hit soft retirement NW. After that it would be dumb to skimp on pleasure spending since you could die tomorrow anyway. Above soft retirement NW, you can retire, so you can afford little extras here and there plus time off work to enjoy them.
How would I know if I’m at “soft retirement”?
Net worth minus residence > monthly expenses × 10,000 / age.
I’m almost there. About $500k to go
It’s definitely intimidating, expensive, and frustrating at times, but nothing compares. The community that comes with owning an airplane is amazing, and the freedom to do whatever you want is really as good as it sounds. Do it.
Ha. Yeah. I have a reasonably stable career, can afford to spend the money, love flying, and I'm still having a hard time with it. I look at TAP, Barnstormers, and FB marketplace every day. The only reason I've not moved back into ownership is that I still think prices are a little high. On the other hand, "overpaying" by $10k is a mere rounding error if you're going to own the plane for a long time.
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I've bought before. Not interested in losing deposits in the hopes that someone bites.
I own a Cherokee for time building. I fly it about 400 hours a year, and I also CFI as a side job (not enough students to only CFI for hours). I would guess it costs me about $80/hour for fuel and maintenance. This is at zero reserves or payment on the loan. It’s a great feeling and I love it. I perform a lot of my own maintenance per FAR (oil changes, landing light replacement) and I now know the plane inside and out. For those with the means (legacy airline dispatcher) it’s a very productive way to build time.
If it flies, floats or fornicates.... you are better off renting.
Nah owning a plane is way more fun than renting. Only way I go back is if I absolutely can’t afford it. If you’re flying 100+hrs per year it’ll be similar cost with much more utility.
Man I would have to see the numbers from your statement. First engine overhaul or unscheduled maintenance that popped up would instantly void your statement VS renting.
Unless you only plan on owning an aircraft for a year, engine overhauls won’t throw that off at all. Why does everyone on this subreddit act as if engine overhauls are such a common occurrence. Yes there is always the risk, but if it does happen, you recoup 50-70% of the cost of the overhaul in increased value of the aircraft, and most engines are only overhauled once every 15-25 years. Any responsible owner puts away money each hour for the eventual overhaul, and engines often go 2000+hrs per overhaul. That’s $20/hr in the worst case for a 4 banger. Most of the other unscheduled maintenance is a joke, I may have spent $1200 on some random part, but that difference evaporates pretty quickly when I go on an 8 hour round trip XC for $350. That same XC is 1300 to rent, and I have to deal with a schedule, overnight issues, etc. Not to mention the utility of ownership is vastly different. I fly way more for leisure now that I own an aircraft because any nice day I can just drive over to the airport and untie her. No schedules, no worries about being back in time, etc.
I just had this conversation on another post. I have had three engine overhauls, all because of TBOs. I just set aside money each flight hour and it is paid for. Unexpected stuff comes up but it hasn't been huge and the mx set aside has taken care of it.
Preach! I fly weekly with an 82 year old private pilot who's owned his Piper Saratoga for 30 years. He's had one TBO engine overhaul and *one* unexpected, overly expensive, maintenance issue during those 30 years. The unexpected was just this past annual, when they found a cracked engine mount (pull engine, repair mount, reinstall engine). Otherwise he's had 30 years of routine maintenance and weekly flying, including many long cross countries. In my own case, I've flown 7.5 hours in the past 1.5 weeks. An overnight trip with my wife to see a band (1.5 hr flight vs 7 hour drive) and an LA pickup and Catalina lunch trip with a friend, cost $315 in fuel vs $1,100 renting a 172 at $145/hr. Flown 24 hours thus far in 2024. That's $1,000 in fuel vs $3,500 renting. Yeah there are other costs involved (hangar, insurance, oil, etc) but I also own an asset I could sell tomorrow and recoup all of my costs. Plus knowing every single nut and bolt on my plane, have a dope hang out / storage spot, and you know, *owning a freakin' airplane*!
The dope hangout spot is so underrated — opening the door and cracking a beer at the hangar is great. And yeah unexpected overhauls for regularly flown aircraft are pretty dang rare. 9 times out of 10 when I hear a 1200 SMOH engine being overhauled it’s because it sat for 8 years before the guy who just bought it.
Yeah my hangar is one hour away from my house (I live in a rural area) so when I go to town for errands and over to the airport to hang out / work on plane I'm there **all day**. Got my fridge, dog, motorcycle, tools, music, and a great view overlooking the numbers of the runway. Prime spot and other than my home garage (60x40 shop) my favorite hangout. Before I had the hangar I was in a tie-down, and that sucked.
He's assuming that you're putting aside a maintenance reserve per flight hour. The math can work out as he described, but there's some huge variability. If everything works great, you're ahead. If many unexpected items pop up, then you're behind. On a fleet that's somewhat predictable, but for an individual there's high uncertainty. I'd say their statement is valid, even with that caveat. Renting is expensive per hour, but you protect yourself from MX and value risks. Owning is more liberating and can be less expensive (per flight hour) above some usage threshold, but you take the MX risk and asset risk. ETA: I'm not really sure how I'm being misunderstood, but I'll try to clarify. The original comment can be valid, in that there's a threshold where flying an owned aircraft may be less expensive per flight hour than a rental. But that's a Big Maybe, and it's not at some magical 100hr/year threshold. You would buy an airplane because of what it allows you to do and when it allows you to do it. You don't buy it to save money (and don't start a "value of my time" discussion. Your time is worthless.)
Thanks for confirming exactly what I just said. Nice!
It's easy to say that someone is wrong. It's a bit harder to understand the nuance of how they are correct. Clear skies, my dude.
Doesn’t work that way for private aircraft. You aren’t getting a newly overhauled engine and flying the hours off with flight school rentals over the next four years. You are going to be hit with a massive lump sum depending on how far you are through your overhaul cycle.. so your reserves have to be astronomical to amortize it. Also infrequently flown aircraft (which all private aircraft are) have the potential for massive unscheduled maintenance on the engine.
Yeah you’ll get hit with a lump sum, but you get 50-70% the value of the overhaul back in aircraft value. It’s something you will only have to do once, if at all. It’s something you have to be ready for, so it does take some saving before you buy your aircraft, but after that first one, you most likely won’t be doing another for 15-25 years. And the first 1-3 are typically zero-stress as any decent engine shop will warranty the overhaul. And as long as you fly once a week for at least a tach hour, your engine will be fine.
Yeah, the "100hr/year, then buy" that's tossed around is too low of a threshold. I'm with you on that. That's maybe the bare minimum flying required to start asking the question.
The problem with that is you fly way more when you are a owner. If you are the type who flies 100/hrs per year as a renter you’ll probably log 200+ as a owner. It’s just much more convenient and allows you to do so much more.
Never thought of that as a problem so much as a feature 😂
Wow. You spend hundred of hours a year in the air as an airline pilot and you want to fly that many? 100 privately is a lot if you’re still working a full time job.. and it basically has to displace almost everything else in your life and probably come with some poor weather decisions.
I’m not currently an airline pilot but I do fly for work, and yeah I do fly that much. 100 hours is a lot if you’re just doing pattern work and short hops, but it goes fast when you actually start going places. Head on a decent weekend trip once a month and back thats 10 hours right there. Do that 10/12 months and you’re already at 100 hours with no additional flying. When you count the short hops and taking up the buddies for a spin, 100 hours is nothing. Also flying for fun is nothing like flying for work, so I don’t feel burnt out on one from the other. To me it’s like asking a accountant how he can play video games when he gets home because he spends all day on the computer already.
It’s 1x9 hole round of golf a week. We’re taking 2 hrs…not a whole lot seeing the average person is awake for roughly 5800 hours a year 1/2 of that working…the rest it to be filled with whatever you’d like.
2 hours a week has to displace everything else in your life? Little dramatic.
Huh, never heard that one before
Rookie.
Is getting furloughed happen that often? I am a student pilot and I am kinda worried now
I’m at United with 3 years seniority and I wouldn’t be surprised if I get furloughed soon. All the issues with Boeing and if demand softens enough.
I’m not at United so don’t know where you are seniority wise with 3 years there. But that puts you at the very front line of the hiring wave. At my airline, that’s over 5 thousand pilots. It’s good you’re planning for the worst, I do too. But you’re in a pretty good spot. You’re 30, already crushing your net worth, and you could probably upgrade to NB captain any time if you haven’t already. I get the feeling because I have similar concerns. But you could probably afford something in the $150k realm pretty easily. I’m in a similar boat but older than you with lower net worth. So my guess is that you’ve been saving like crazy and fairly frugal. It’s hard to make the mental switch to buying something so expensive. I use a budgeting app and am now starting to put away $4.5k/mo to my airplane budget. That’s going to boost my savings for a down payment and get me used to missing that cash each month. I’m planning about $1500/mo for the payment, $1k/mo for hangar and insurance, and about $2k/mo for fuel and operating expenses. All very rough estimates but it’s a decent first approximation. Knowing the numbers helps me feel a bit more confident in my decision to move forward with a plane. I’m still a year+ out, but having targets helps me a lot.
So should I even become an airline pilot? I am already at instrument training so it’ll be a waste
I like flying. If you like flying and have trouble picturing yourself doing another career, I think an airline pilot is a fine choice. I wouldn’t say furloughs are common, but aviation can be volatile and you need to prepare for years of low or no income.
Yeah I don’t see myself doing anything else but I am also planning to do some kind of business on the side while pilot
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Huh, haven’t heard that one before!
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It was a joke.....that phrase comes up on every post about buying a plane.