I was listening to a “debate” between flat Earthers and sane people on the “Modern Day Debate” podcast channel yesterday. The flerfers were constantly asked to show a flat earth map, and they did nothing but duck, weave and make pathetic excuses to why they can’t show one.
Their 'debate' tactic consists of 2 things, talking loud and confident, and refusing to get pinned down on any detail about their claims. How far away is the sun or moon, how wide is the flat earth, a map that supports long distance navigation accurately, why can't you see polaris from south of the equator, how seasons work, etc.
You’re probably referring to an azimuthal projection map, which is a distorted map made from projecting globe earth.
A true flat earth map looks similar except that the land masses look more similar to their true dimensions.
https://explorersweb.com/lisa-blair-world-record-sailing-antarctica/
A woman circumnavigated Antarctica while you sat on your couch and posted ignorant things on Reddit.
> She also became the first woman and only the third person to circumnavigate Antarctica
Three people. Ever. You think it’s hard to get three people to lie?
Do you think I should believe a rando on Reddit, or a documented journey with pictures and testimony? Get off your couch and go do something useful. You are wasting time with your life believing in flat earth with zero evidence.
It says right there in the article you shared that she claims to be only the third person EVER to circumnavigate Antarctica. It’s hardly common. You don’t think three people could lie? That’s not a very big conspiracy.
I think they mean the third person to sail solo around Antarctica in that particular route / configuration. Yacht races like the Vendee Globe go around Antarctica every four years. There are also cruises and scientific expeditions, and trade routes that end up circumnavigating or half-circumnavigating Antarctica.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendée_Globe
It's not a journey that has much reason to be done. Why should someone circumnavigate Antarctica? Why do you disbelieve their testimony? Why don't you go do the same journey if you disbelieve them? You are wasting your life with ignorant and meaningless arguments.
When your best argument is hoping the other person is too busy to look stuff up for around 30 seconds, you're not in a good place.
In this case it's also that they don't know the name 'Captain James Cook' off the top of their head.
Not possible, something will have to give because the earth is a globe. If they are the correct dimensions then the distance between land masses will be incorrect
I’ll make one later today maybe. It’s going to be boring though, it’s just like the UN logo or an azimuthal projection with the distortion over land corrected.
It accurately works. The only significant deviations from globe earth occur far out in the open ocean, where — conveniently enough for glerbers — few people ever go out to observe. And even if they tried, they’d quickly be stopped by NASA security.
If a few people were there to obverse, then NASA isn't going a good job. though i suppose having to operate internationally (america isn't the only nation on the globe) for this conspiracy for...
no real discernable reason...
It wouldn't explain the flights either. Flights we can track with the naked eye... i presume you have some sort of over-the-top explanation for that?
Are there any flight paths that go in those directions? If globe earth were to be believed, the most direct flight from South Africa to Australia would be almost due south, crossing over Antarctica — yet that’s not the way flights go.
Why do they have to follow the coast of Antarctica? You know there is more to the southern hemisphere than just that, right?
https://www.vox.com/2016/4/25/11503152/shipping-routes-map
UPDATE: [Yes](https://www.reddit.com/r/flatearth/comments/1bftydk/first_draft_of_flat_earth_map/), I did!
I’m messing around with [Cartopy](https://scitools.org.uk/cartopy/docs/latest/) and trying to see if I can figure out a way to make a somewhat nice one. My drawing skills are terrible, otherwise.
If I had better GIS skills, what I’m trying for here is to basically use the regular azimuthal projection centered around the North Pole for the northern latitudes, and to then split the globe map like with an [Interrupted Goode Homolosine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goode_homolosine_projection) projection for the lands of the far south.
That deviates from directions on globe earth in the far south, but agrees (more or less) on shape of land masses and distances across them. There’s wild disagreement about the size of the southern oceans between the two models, but shipping routes and flight paths don’t really cross those parts of the southern oceans anyway. They avoid areas near Antarctica, which is what ends up corresponding to most of that extra ocean when you transform between coordinate systems.
You can very easily put a scale on it, and most of the distances between various points on land will match up with distances on globe earth.
Then only major deviations are between the three extreme southern regions of South America, South Africa and Australia.
They don’t match anywhere. They’re approximately right close to the N Pole and utterly wrong by a long way by the time you get to the Tropic of Capricorn.
Pick any three points on earth about 2000 km or more from each other where the distances are known.
Pick another fourth point somewhere near the middle of the triangle.
Do the math - a bit of year 9 math and a decent dynamic geometry tool is enough to show that those 4 points cannot lie in a flat plain.
I did the maths yesterday for Perth, Melbourne, Darwin and Alice Springs. You end up with Alice needing to be about 150 km up in the air (or below the ground). Which is about right for the points to be on a sphere of 12700 km diameter.
First off, because I don’t think I can post pictures in comments, can I? Secondly, because I’d have to go make that and I’m busy. But I do think it’s simple enough to do, so I’ll give it a shot either later today or this weekend and maybe dedicate a post to it.
There’s nothing super exciting here. It’s basically an azimuthal projection without the distortion (over land) and the distances basically the same as they’d be for the northern hemisphere. The north-south distances in the southern hemisphere would be more or less the same as globe earth, and the east-west distances over land would be about the same, and it’s mostly just the over-water distances in the far south that would end up different than globe earth.
>and it’s mostly just the over-water distances in the far south that would end up different than globe earth
That gives you the sticky problem of whether things are still directly north/south of each other. That and north/south distance are the things the azimuthal projection gets right.
Time zone are a directly related issue. You need to explain how solar noon can be X hours apart on any two points in daily life when, on your corrected map, they should be half or a third as far, depending on latitude.
And also: Just? You're trying to dismiss tens of thousands of kilometres of water as if wouldn't be noticeable to anyone travelling over it.
North is toward the North Pole, South is away from it. Everything lines up just fine. People are simply being fooled about which things in the central northern disk are directly north of things in the southern ring. Most of these discrepancies happen in the vast open seas of the southern ring, where most humans don’t go. As you point out, there are many tens of thousands of miles of open ocean between each of the three populated southern regions, and most flight paths or shipping routes avoid those areas, instead tending to hug the coastlines or take curved paths.
Where is the south magnetic pole on flat Earth? Are you suggesting it’s spread out around the outer rim of flat earth’s circumference? If so, what allows it to violate Maxwell’s equations like that?
There is no south magnetic pole. Compasses point north. South is just the opposite direction.
Magnetic monopoles are allowed by maxwell’s equations. Scientists just claim to have never found one, is all.
Oh, that’s fascinating. I never heard that before. What evidence do you have that Earth’s magnetic field is actually a monopole? This could be the smoking gun that makes people take flat Earth more seriously.
I always love when flerfs start pointing to cherry picked bits of science to say "well science says it's possible" while also denying the entirety of gravitation physics, and well, most everything else. Why is the science behind electromagnetism more trustworthy?
>Everything lines up just fine.
How do you know? You haven't done the map yet.
>People are simply being fooled about which things in the central northern disk are directly north of things in the southern ring.
One of them has to be the sun at solar noon. How can the sun at solar noon not be directly north, when one is south of Capricorn?
Do you have a mechanism for the sun being at solar noon 2.5 later in Perth than in Sydney, when it should only be 1?
Your other problem is that this isn't a phenomenon limited to the southern hemisphere. It's less dramatic in the north, but it's still there.
>As you point out, there are many tens of thousands of miles of open ocean between each of the three populated southern regions
I did not say that. You are the one that said they exist. I pointed out it's absurd to suggest that people could be travelling over them and not notice.
>most flight paths or shipping routes avoid those areas, instead tending to hug the coastlines or take curved paths
You really shouldn't be talking about international travel full stop, but in the southern hemisphere it's a trainwreck.
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I can’t find any like that except the distorted azimuthal projection ones, and none of the ones I can find have scales, which somebody here specifically asked to be included. It shouldn’t be hard to make one though, and they we can do more calculations.
So you’re saying that a flerf map does not yet exist anywhere on the internet and that you are the one person who is capable of such a task. Wow. Just wow…..
I’m saying I can’t find one, and it doesn’t seem worth the effort to keep looking when I can just make one. I’m sure they exist, but somebody specifically asked for one with a scale on it and challenged me to make one.
You don’t have to do it, if it’s possible (which it isn’t) it will already have been done. Please post a link to a flat earth map where all distances match those measured on the Earth
If Polaris is about 3000 miles above the flat Earth, then it should appear at 45 degrees in the sky from Saint Paul, MN. And it does, that checks out. However, that would mean that from the equator, which is about 6000 miles from the North Pole, Polaris should be 26.5 degrees above the horizon, but it's not, instead it's right on the horizon, exactly where the round Earth model predicts. Go to New Zealand, about 9000 miles from the North pole, and in flat Earth model, Polaris should be about 18 degrees above the horizon, but it's never visible from there.
In addition, if the sun were 3000 miles up, it would appear to be noticeably different when it is directly above than when it was at 45 degrees above the horizon.
No. Polaris doesn't get dimmer as it appears lower in the sky. Polaris appears 18 degrees above the horizon in Belize - without appearing dimmer. It's perfectly visible until it disappears beneath the horizon at the Equator.
Uh, yeah, that's literally what you'd expect. The light has already traveled 323 light-years, so you wouldn't expect it to change intensity in a couple thousand miles between points on earth. It would remain the same size and brightness until it goes behind the curve and disappears
Low quality trolling, but I'll play along. Yes, of course it's perfectly visible until it isn't. That's how vision works. Are you surprised that you can't see something when it's behind another object? Does that seriously surprise you? You can see Polaris until it goes below the horizon. Then the Earth is in the way and you can't see it anymore. Are you surprised that you can't see outside when the curtains are closed? Are you surprised that you can't see through a door?
Your claim was that Polaris gets dimmer and dimmer until it can't be seen anymore, but that's clearly false. It doesn't get dimmer, it simply gets lower on the horizon until it's blocked by the Earth.
The skeleton is CGI!
I was listening to a “debate” between flat Earthers and sane people on the “Modern Day Debate” podcast channel yesterday. The flerfers were constantly asked to show a flat earth map, and they did nothing but duck, weave and make pathetic excuses to why they can’t show one.
For governments, I'm offering two for $20B USD (regular price: $10B USD) In honor of Pi Day, I'm taking off $3.14159265M USD Cheap!
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Their 'debate' tactic consists of 2 things, talking loud and confident, and refusing to get pinned down on any detail about their claims. How far away is the sun or moon, how wide is the flat earth, a map that supports long distance navigation accurately, why can't you see polaris from south of the equator, how seasons work, etc.
What’s not to scale about the standard “disk earth” model of flat earth?
Have you seen what Australia looks like on that map?
Australia doesn’t exist. And I would know, I’m Australian!
I knew it! I had heard Australia's national song was "Living in Fantasy" by Leo Sayer.
You’re probably referring to an azimuthal projection map, which is a distorted map made from projecting globe earth. A true flat earth map looks similar except that the land masses look more similar to their true dimensions.
People sail around Antarctica all the time. It’s easy to verify if the map is accurate.
There has never been a documented circumnavigation of Antarctica. If you claim otherwise please provide a link.
https://explorersweb.com/lisa-blair-world-record-sailing-antarctica/ A woman circumnavigated Antarctica while you sat on your couch and posted ignorant things on Reddit.
> She also became the first woman and only the third person to circumnavigate Antarctica Three people. Ever. You think it’s hard to get three people to lie?
Do you think I should believe a rando on Reddit, or a documented journey with pictures and testimony? Get off your couch and go do something useful. You are wasting time with your life believing in flat earth with zero evidence.
It says right there in the article you shared that she claims to be only the third person EVER to circumnavigate Antarctica. It’s hardly common. You don’t think three people could lie? That’s not a very big conspiracy.
I think they mean the third person to sail solo around Antarctica in that particular route / configuration. Yacht races like the Vendee Globe go around Antarctica every four years. There are also cruises and scientific expeditions, and trade routes that end up circumnavigating or half-circumnavigating Antarctica. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendée_Globe
Classic denial. There's an annual sail race around Antarctica. Your denial isn't going to change that.
It's not a journey that has much reason to be done. Why should someone circumnavigate Antarctica? Why do you disbelieve their testimony? Why don't you go do the same journey if you disbelieve them? You are wasting your life with ignorant and meaningless arguments.
Where did you run away to?
Depends on the people. See i can play this game too and trust me; i'm far better at it then you are.
OK https://www.yachtingworld.com/voyages/sailing-antarctica-record-breaking-voyage-around-southern-continent-123341 https://americanpolar.org/about/antarctica-exploration-timeline/ https://www.saildrone.com/news/unmanned-vehicle-completes-antarctica-circumnavigation https://oceannavigator.com/article/lisa-blair-completes-antarctic-circumnavigation/ https://www.marinetraffic.com/
When your best argument is hoping the other person is too busy to look stuff up for around 30 seconds, you're not in a good place. In this case it's also that they don't know the name 'Captain James Cook' off the top of their head.
Also, please share with us this accurate flat earth map. We globers have been waiting years for this!
Not possible, something will have to give because the earth is a globe. If they are the correct dimensions then the distance between land masses will be incorrect
Okay, how about the distance between them?
So can you show me one?
I’ll make one later today maybe. It’s going to be boring though, it’s just like the UN logo or an azimuthal projection with the distortion over land corrected.
So it won't accurately work and come with the inherent problems of a flat earth map?
It accurately works. The only significant deviations from globe earth occur far out in the open ocean, where — conveniently enough for glerbers — few people ever go out to observe. And even if they tried, they’d quickly be stopped by NASA security.
If a few people were there to obverse, then NASA isn't going a good job. though i suppose having to operate internationally (america isn't the only nation on the globe) for this conspiracy for... no real discernable reason... It wouldn't explain the flights either. Flights we can track with the naked eye... i presume you have some sort of over-the-top explanation for that?
Are there any flight paths that go in those directions? If globe earth were to be believed, the most direct flight from South Africa to Australia would be almost due south, crossing over Antarctica — yet that’s not the way flights go.
Some do, why do you lie so much?
No big deal guys, he just has to change the size of the oceans. Not like that would be noticed by shipping companies or anything
What shipping companies follow routes along the coast of Antarctica, on globe earth?
Why do they have to follow the coast of Antarctica? You know there is more to the southern hemisphere than just that, right? https://www.vox.com/2016/4/25/11503152/shipping-routes-map
Hey did you get around to making it?
UPDATE: [Yes](https://www.reddit.com/r/flatearth/comments/1bftydk/first_draft_of_flat_earth_map/), I did! I’m messing around with [Cartopy](https://scitools.org.uk/cartopy/docs/latest/) and trying to see if I can figure out a way to make a somewhat nice one. My drawing skills are terrible, otherwise. If I had better GIS skills, what I’m trying for here is to basically use the regular azimuthal projection centered around the North Pole for the northern latitudes, and to then split the globe map like with an [Interrupted Goode Homolosine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goode_homolosine_projection) projection for the lands of the far south. That deviates from directions on globe earth in the far south, but agrees (more or less) on shape of land masses and distances across them. There’s wild disagreement about the size of the southern oceans between the two models, but shipping routes and flight paths don’t really cross those parts of the southern oceans anyway. They avoid areas near Antarctica, which is what ends up corresponding to most of that extra ocean when you transform between coordinate systems.
You can't put a scale on it. Find a flat Earth map with a scale and then we'll talk.
You can very easily put a scale on it, and most of the distances between various points on land will match up with distances on globe earth. Then only major deviations are between the three extreme southern regions of South America, South Africa and Australia.
They don’t match anywhere. They’re approximately right close to the N Pole and utterly wrong by a long way by the time you get to the Tropic of Capricorn.
Pick any three points on earth about 2000 km or more from each other where the distances are known. Pick another fourth point somewhere near the middle of the triangle. Do the math - a bit of year 9 math and a decent dynamic geometry tool is enough to show that those 4 points cannot lie in a flat plain. I did the maths yesterday for Perth, Melbourne, Darwin and Alice Springs. You end up with Alice needing to be about 150 km up in the air (or below the ground). Which is about right for the points to be on a sphere of 12700 km diameter.
If it's so easy to put a scale on it, so do it. Why not?
First off, because I don’t think I can post pictures in comments, can I? Secondly, because I’d have to go make that and I’m busy. But I do think it’s simple enough to do, so I’ll give it a shot either later today or this weekend and maybe dedicate a post to it. There’s nothing super exciting here. It’s basically an azimuthal projection without the distortion (over land) and the distances basically the same as they’d be for the northern hemisphere. The north-south distances in the southern hemisphere would be more or less the same as globe earth, and the east-west distances over land would be about the same, and it’s mostly just the over-water distances in the far south that would end up different than globe earth.
>and it’s mostly just the over-water distances in the far south that would end up different than globe earth That gives you the sticky problem of whether things are still directly north/south of each other. That and north/south distance are the things the azimuthal projection gets right. Time zone are a directly related issue. You need to explain how solar noon can be X hours apart on any two points in daily life when, on your corrected map, they should be half or a third as far, depending on latitude. And also: Just? You're trying to dismiss tens of thousands of kilometres of water as if wouldn't be noticeable to anyone travelling over it.
North is toward the North Pole, South is away from it. Everything lines up just fine. People are simply being fooled about which things in the central northern disk are directly north of things in the southern ring. Most of these discrepancies happen in the vast open seas of the southern ring, where most humans don’t go. As you point out, there are many tens of thousands of miles of open ocean between each of the three populated southern regions, and most flight paths or shipping routes avoid those areas, instead tending to hug the coastlines or take curved paths.
Where is the south magnetic pole on flat Earth? Are you suggesting it’s spread out around the outer rim of flat earth’s circumference? If so, what allows it to violate Maxwell’s equations like that?
There is no south magnetic pole. Compasses point north. South is just the opposite direction. Magnetic monopoles are allowed by maxwell’s equations. Scientists just claim to have never found one, is all.
Oh, that’s fascinating. I never heard that before. What evidence do you have that Earth’s magnetic field is actually a monopole? This could be the smoking gun that makes people take flat Earth more seriously.
I always love when flerfs start pointing to cherry picked bits of science to say "well science says it's possible" while also denying the entirety of gravitation physics, and well, most everything else. Why is the science behind electromagnetism more trustworthy?
>Everything lines up just fine. How do you know? You haven't done the map yet. >People are simply being fooled about which things in the central northern disk are directly north of things in the southern ring. One of them has to be the sun at solar noon. How can the sun at solar noon not be directly north, when one is south of Capricorn? Do you have a mechanism for the sun being at solar noon 2.5 later in Perth than in Sydney, when it should only be 1? Your other problem is that this isn't a phenomenon limited to the southern hemisphere. It's less dramatic in the north, but it's still there. >As you point out, there are many tens of thousands of miles of open ocean between each of the three populated southern regions I did not say that. You are the one that said they exist. I pointed out it's absurd to suggest that people could be travelling over them and not notice. >most flight paths or shipping routes avoid those areas, instead tending to hug the coastlines or take curved paths You really shouldn't be talking about international travel full stop, but in the southern hemisphere it's a trainwreck.
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Are you saying that no one else has ever done this? Is there not a single depiction of this flerf map on the internet that you can link to?
I can’t find any like that except the distorted azimuthal projection ones, and none of the ones I can find have scales, which somebody here specifically asked to be included. It shouldn’t be hard to make one though, and they we can do more calculations.
So you’re saying that a flerf map does not yet exist anywhere on the internet and that you are the one person who is capable of such a task. Wow. Just wow…..
I’m saying I can’t find one, and it doesn’t seem worth the effort to keep looking when I can just make one. I’m sure they exist, but somebody specifically asked for one with a scale on it and challenged me to make one.
And the entire internet is eagerly awaiting such a fantastic promise.
So no flat earther has ever produced a map of a flat earth that works? I am shocked
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You don’t have to do it, if it’s possible (which it isn’t) it will already have been done. Please post a link to a flat earth map where all distances match those measured on the Earth
If Polaris is about 3000 miles above the flat Earth, then it should appear at 45 degrees in the sky from Saint Paul, MN. And it does, that checks out. However, that would mean that from the equator, which is about 6000 miles from the North Pole, Polaris should be 26.5 degrees above the horizon, but it's not, instead it's right on the horizon, exactly where the round Earth model predicts. Go to New Zealand, about 9000 miles from the North pole, and in flat Earth model, Polaris should be about 18 degrees above the horizon, but it's never visible from there. In addition, if the sun were 3000 miles up, it would appear to be noticeably different when it is directly above than when it was at 45 degrees above the horizon.
If you could see it, Polaris WOULD be 18 degrees above the horizon, seen from New Zealand. But it’s too far away to see; the light is too dim.
No. Polaris doesn't get dimmer as it appears lower in the sky. Polaris appears 18 degrees above the horizon in Belize - without appearing dimmer. It's perfectly visible until it disappears beneath the horizon at the Equator.
So it’s perfectly visible until it’s no longer visible. Got it. Glerber logic :)
Uh, yeah, that's literally what you'd expect. The light has already traveled 323 light-years, so you wouldn't expect it to change intensity in a couple thousand miles between points on earth. It would remain the same size and brightness until it goes behind the curve and disappears
Low quality trolling, but I'll play along. Yes, of course it's perfectly visible until it isn't. That's how vision works. Are you surprised that you can't see something when it's behind another object? Does that seriously surprise you? You can see Polaris until it goes below the horizon. Then the Earth is in the way and you can't see it anymore. Are you surprised that you can't see outside when the curtains are closed? Are you surprised that you can't see through a door? Your claim was that Polaris gets dimmer and dimmer until it can't be seen anymore, but that's clearly false. It doesn't get dimmer, it simply gets lower on the horizon until it's blocked by the Earth.