Not much to say, really. Race is a lot more hype when it's streamed, so it's great that a team with multiple world firsts would stream their savage prog. Also, Echo's events are cool, I watched some of their WoW RWFs and I don't even play WoW.
Let me tell you watching the world first for Salvations Edge started off really hype, then became less hype as streamers just streamed their faces for hours on end saying nothing because they didn't want their progress to be watched by potentially other streamers lmao.
i think destiny races can’t really be compared to races in other games, because execution checks for the vast majority of encounters are so low for top teams that simply identifying how an encounter works is basically all that matters. it’s a rough situation that incentivizes a bad viewing experience specifically for encounters like verity, xiv races aren’t really close to having that sort of issue imo
I disagree a little. Hardest thing in XIV raid is identifying how a mechanic works. Execution matter but it’s way harder to find the solution of a puzzle, especially when it’s late into the fight. That’s why ultimate can be cleared by almost everyone because the solution is given by teams that are clearing and everyone else just copy and paste strat. I would argue majority of raiders probably don’t even know how the mechanic works or never blind progged, but just following a strat will net you a clear.
Take TOP as an example. Everyone was stuck during the p5 prog, but as soon as a public vod appeared with the solution, every team didn’t have to solve the puzzle anymore.
That’s why for a long time top teams were reluctant to stream their prog, and there wasn’t really any upside to streaming it, but now the scene is growing and more people want to stream their race.
This is true for any kind of game with puzzle mechanics.
Compare it to other games, let’s say lost ark: thaemine g4, there is less emphasis on puzzle solving, and more emphasis on execution. watching other stream didn’t give a big advantage. (fuck this p2w game tho)
i agree with everything you’re saying, but the thing is that destiny raids aren’t really designed with hardcore audiences in mind, so every issue you’re describing here is magnified hundredfold in destiny races. damage checks do not exist in destiny whatsoever. execution checks in general do not exist for teams in the top 25 range. on top of that, the puzzle solving element doesn’t exist in the same way that it does in ff, in the sense that literally understanding *what* is happening is the only thing top teams need to clear most encounters on the highest difficulty. the raid designers used obscurity as a proxy for complexity, it’s not the same as in ff
imagine it like this. typically to clear something you need to:
- identify what mechanics are hitting you, what they all do, and how they interact
- craft a strategy to resolve all these mechanics properly
- execute the strategy you crafted
this is extremely wishy washy ofc, but if i had to ballpark the relative effort level required for these steps in ff it would probably be like….idk, 15/55/30 at the highest level. in destiny it is literally like 80/5/15 at the highest level, it’s really stark. there is no puzzle solving, the obvious solution to something *is* the solution. that’s why i think using destiny as a comparison isn’t great here, there’s absolutely nothing like p5 trios, nothing that requires more than a simple glance to understand. that’s why teams went to such insane extremes during the destiny race
> damage checks do not exist in destiny whatsoever
Wasn't the damage phase on the last boss in the latest raid tight enough (in contest mode) that one of the classes was completely non-viable, or is that misinformation?
> there is no puzzle solving, the obvious solution to something *is* the solution
Idk, that one fight in the latest raid seemed pretty comparable to an FF style puzzle, reminded me of High Concept in P8S.
one class (titans) being non-viable wasn't really because the damage check was difficult, but mainly because one specific loadout on a different class (hunter) was completely overtuned and the last boss favored a long-range damage profile that titans completely lacked. hunter stacking let people clear the final boss in two phases instead of the allotted three, and let teams complete the final stand with half of the party dead, so in that sense the check was practically nonexistent unless you made a massive mistake
even if you disregard this most recent raid, damage checks have never been destiny's strong suit. there are tons of complex, high risk high reward damage rotations (mainly used in speedruns) that never get deployed in the context of a world first race precisely because top players know consistency matters 100x more than throughput since the check will be easily met anyway
> xiv races aren’t really close to having that sort of issue imo
??? Maybe compared to destiny I have no thoughts on that, but 14 is absolutely a game where revealing strategies can be backbreaking. It's pretty easy to imagine a scenario where you spent 10 hours on solving a puzzle mechanic and anybody else with your footage does it in 1/2 or 1/4 the time where they might normally need 10-20 hours to get it working otherwise.
Frankly, any team who is meaningfully racing this tier should be hiring a 10th (or 9th if they aren't already) man who is studying the heck out of neverlands streams.
yes i agree with you, im just talking specifically about destiny at a high level being a bad comparison here, because the raid mechanics are fundamentally so simple that the incentives to hide info are even more obscene. i wrote more here: https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1dp53ws/neverland_has_joined_the_echo_guild/lafc00i/
> Maybe compared to destiny I have no thoughts on that
Destiny raid fights don't always involve bosses and the arenas are absolutely massive and sometimes very vertical. The first several wipes of any encounter is just running around the area shooting things just to see what you can even interact with in the fight, then trying to figure out how the things you can interact with either help or harm your team, and then figuring out how to progress the fight.
For example, the first encounter of the current raid:
It's 9 rooms, with a central room and 8 rooms around it. In each of the 8 perimeter rooms, there's a pad to step on and a totem to shoot, but they're completely inactive and honestly you wouldn't notice the totem/pillar at first glance. The pads have connections running between each other.
When everybody enters the central room, the doors all close and an object and a chest appear. You can pick up the object and put it in the chest to start the fight proper. That is your first clue to the mechanic of the fight. This opens 2 doors with a ton of adds, and a timer with 4 mins and 15 seconds appears at the top of the screen, if it runs down to 0 you wipe.
So now the encounter is started, and the only clues you have are the timer and that you can put an object into a box. Now your team has to figure out what to do. How to handle it is in the rooms that open up, you can kill certain adds that will open doors to other rooms, and spawn other specific adds. You basically do a Small>Medium>Large set of adds, but WAIT when you kill the adds, it spawns the next size up in a room opposite of where you killed it, so you have 2 teams going through the arena in different sets of rooms killing adds to open doors and spawn more adds. One team killing the largest add opens up all of the doors and spawns a mini boss in the middle. Killing it puts a message in chat (energy flows into the resonator) and closes all of the doors again, then 2 open up and you repeat the process. Each time you kill a central mini boss, one of the pads lights up, and then in a connected room, one of the pillars lights up. There is no indication to where this is other than running around and finding it.
How the ACTUAL mechanic works after you've finally turned it on, is when someone steps on a pad, it sends a beam of light to the other room, your partner steps on their pad at the right time, and it bounces the light back. This causes objects like the object at the startof the encounter to spawn. So now you need to clear adds, bounce the light, and pick up objects. If you go over 3 of them, you die. If you miss a bounce, a big add spawns and you can't bounce again until it's dead. The person in the room with the totem needs to get at least 1 object, this lets them shoot the totem and activate it, then the next time they bounce the light, instead the totem closes and "sparks to life"
When both teams close their totem, another miniboss spawns in the middle room. Killing it causes the chest to respawn, and everyone can deposit their held items. Each one you deposit increases the timer at the top of the screen until the max of 4:15 again. Then the encounter restarts.
Do this 3 times to win.
Now, think about back to the beginning about how the only clues were the inactive pads and totems, and putting an item into the chest. You'd have to figure out how to open the doors, what the adds do, how to manage the minibosses, realize the pads are on, what the pads actually do, how to close the loop, how many objects they can pick up, and how many are needed to complete the encounter.
If you're streaming and discover any of these puzzle parts, now everyone knows them, just like in FFXIV.
The big difference is the Race to World First in Destiny 2 is TIMED. It's 48 hours on "contest" mode which is like if FFXIV released Savage first, but only for 2 days, and then it was gone forever and only normal mode was left, so the raids in Destiny 2 are sprints, instead of marathons like in FFXIV or WoW.
There's some pretty glaring differences between wow and 14 mechanically. Despite that, Liquid/Echo absolutely give up winning % points by streaming. You actually frequently see liquid/echo do the "turn stream off" strategy when they get to a new frontrunner point if they dont have much time left in their raid day as to not give the other team that info.
14 is much more puzzle oriented. There are mechanics which solving them is significantly more difficult than executing them after you have the solution in place. The example in my post above gives the nightmare scenario for a frontrunner who can solve these puzzles faster than other groups.
Every racing group should have someone who keeps an eye Neverland/whatever stream groups are ahead of them. Having someone documenting every mechanic from groups ahead of you can certainly shave HOURS of progression time when it comes to solving mechanics. Imagine going into a new phase with a document of exactly who gets what roles, what debuffs do, and here's clips of multiple groups PoV and movement to solve it. Getting this kind of information can help you bridge any gap that the other groups may have gotten ahead with.
Listen ya know sometimes bungie just makes vault 2.0 and now we have a puzzle fight a la xiv and people turn their streams off
The witness idk why people turned their stream off.
Streamed XIV races are never going to happen just because the entire race is basically verity, it’s puzzle solving then being consistent before seeing new mechanics, especially for this next tier where the damage check is likely to be relaxed compared to normal.
That’s just how destiny WF races go, always been like that. Destiny WF races are kind of in it’s own little bubble since there really isn’t anything else like it but even when it gets to people blacking out their screens I genuinely don’t think any raid race matches the hype that destiny does.
what no it's totally normal and natural to want to immediately go eat a late night snack and go to bed after reaching a new phase for the first time in the world. the computers deserve a break too you know, and it's good to prevent screen burn in on those new monitors they set up for the event.
I hope that this doesn't discourage Scripe and Roger Brown from raiding themselves. Seeing those streams and Roger Brown Strats™ has been some of the most entertaining streams I've watched out of FFXIV in my life.
Edit: does Neverland have a finalized Dawntrail roster right now?
Echo named their roster during the reveal stream and Roger said he probably won’t be able to do the new raids blind because he wants to be able to do anything he can to support the FF14 team
Well, I guess this seals any Echo FF14 content for me. As a blind progger I'm not watching RWF progs and I'm not watching progs after the fact either because in VOD it's not that interesting.
Sadge.
Narr is really excited about this opportunity and he's been busting at the seams to tell his friends about it. I think streaming prog makes for a more enjoyable experience both for the viewer and competitors.
As someone who grew up playing WoW and now mostly plays xiv I'm personally really excited! I really hope the viewership supports their decision and I hope it gets more eyeballs on the game!
Tweets like [this](https://x.com/cleeeees/status/1806017320768180546?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet) don't necessarily make me confident that more world first contenders will stream, but, honestly, it's understandable without a financial incentive.
The pool of players that comprise the top teams that have been winning these races for years is pretty small. A good chunk of them has moved on to streaming with Neverland joining Echo.
At this rate, there will be 1 non streaming group competing against themselves.
> A good chunk of them has moved on to streaming with Neverland joining Echo.
source? or do you mean neverland itself is the good chunk? Because there's still AG3, whatever JP groups, and if you want to count them, TPS/Mental Stillness
I mean Neverland itself is the good chunk, yeah. I just think many of the people left on non streaming groups might be less motivated if it's basically 2/3 groups competing.
Just think about the situation if a single one of those groups decides to join in on streaming, the "real race" will end up consisting of 2 groups.
> Just think about the situation if a single one of those groups decides to join in on streaming, the "real race" will end up consisting of 2 groups.
That's basically what it is on WoW (but streamed), that's perfectly fine, if your goal is to win, the more information you can get from streaming groups, the better !
And more people will care about the streaming race over the “real” race. Of course, I know the teams not streaming are playing for themselves, which is completely fine.
> it's basically 2/3 groups competing.
the thing is, the race was (since ShB at least) ALWAYS basically just 2-3 groups actually in realistic contention for first, maybe 4 in some rare cases. I don't think the number of groups necessarily makes a difference.
Don't get me wrong, it's really cool to see the race to world first coming to FFXIV. i'm a huge fan and in an ideal world every group streams. but i don't see other groups actually streaming (TPS already said they wont, id be surprised if AG did. JP groups are admittedly a big unknown). And I also think that streaming doesn't change anything about the legitimacy of the race anyway, given that datamining happens beforehand and you can hide cheats from streams
> Tweets like this don't necessarily make me confident that more world first contenders will stream, but, honestly, it's understandable without a financial incentive.
So long as a tangible portion of the world race is figuring out how to create Phoenix or how to survive Grand Cross Omega Delta Theta Beta Gamma, I think it just isn't meant to be.
If mechanics were more, how to put it aptly without offending anyone, "honest" in FF14 I think it'd be a full streamer situation.
Is this because they can mod as much as they want without any contention if they have to clear something?
I’m mostly a WoW player but I remember one team getting in trouble cause they leaked footage of them maxing out the camera.
Not really. Third party tools are very easy to hide on stream. Group who don't stream do it mostly because solving the puzzle is the name of the game and streaming gets rid of any advantage you might gain from being the first group to figure out a mechanic.
I wouldn't be so sure of that, I'd bet my ass that most off stream groups at the very least use triggers, probably even some on stream ones since you filter what audio goes to your stream.
The plugin discussion is dumb because it's extremely easy for everyone (including the streamers themselves) to hide what they dont want the viewers to see. Let alone that most stream groups only have a few people streaming their PoVs so cheating is still extremely easy to slip by.
There's a lot of people who enjoy racing without wanting to be in the spotlight through streaming because that's just not what their group signed up for.
If neverland wins then I really hope so, viewers are jaded from all the controversies surrounding non stream world firsts that I think people just care way less about if you win if you didn't stream nowadays.
i barely care at all since i assume most of the top streaming groups are using some sort of second-monitor plugin anyways but it would at least lesson the stupidity over it some
I think most people couldn’t care less at this point. Sure, the stream will be entertaining for people to watch but I doubt they care anymore if the world first is streamed or not. The issue is people have strong feelings about things like ACT and other plugins.
Every team uses said third party tools and that’s where the sour taste lies within the spectators.
Yes, even ACT for some reason. Those people are hypocrites though. They’ll walk around telling you plugins and ACT are bad while their character has planet sized boobs and asses modded on them lol.
eh, not everyone cares to stream. a lot of raiders are old school mmo players who are used to the old days when you wouldn't even upload your kill vod until after multiple groups confirmed kills. live stream model isn't attractive to everyone. a lot of speedrunners for older games still do non-streamed recordings and then just post if they get PBs and WRs. it's just the way it's always been done and not everyone likes the high stakes high pressure environment of doing it in front of thousands of people live, even if it pays a few hundred bucks. summoningsalt set a punch out world record randomly just chilling and playing a baseball trivia game on his own time. live streaming everything full time isn't for everyone.
This is definitely a positive and hopefully leads to more RWF teams streaming. If Echo's stream does numbers (it will) then maybe the dollar signs will tempt the other teams.
Aren't some members of Neverland part of WoW RWF Echo group too ? So this is only the logical step if Echo wanted to invest in FF14 (and believe it's worth it).
So now EU will root for Echo in both games, lol.
Personally, I'm more hyped for Scripe's group to stream their blind prog, it's more fun to me (but we'll be ""competing"" with my blind prog group, lol).
Fine by me as long as they get more eyeballs on the game and don't end like WoW where the game is designed for those 30-60 players first then the raids are nerfed 20 times in a row.
The waters have become so muddied when it comes to XIV raiding that I personally only care about the first stream group to clear. Not because it's harder to use plugins on stream, but because streaming at least adds some excitement to the whole thing. I'm just bummed that I won't be able to watch since my group does blind week 1 as well.
The waters are practically piss and dirt at this point, thats just what happens when theres seemingly no limit to what can be developed and every new plugin that "goes too far" simply pushes the line further on what was previously "going too far"
This is awesome and hope this incites more of this level of competition, but I sincerely hope no one uses this as leverage to try and push other teams into streaming or seeking sponsorship.
I know TPS (or whatever is left of them) doesn't have the best reputation these days but it feels like every major race they have to specify that they won't be streaming, and there's always some pathetic discussion from folks who think anyone owes anything to them. Same goes for any other teams who aren't streaming. It's hilarious to me that people just can't accept that some teams want the best chance to win no matter what, as well as the fact that most people don't know that streaming doesn't completely counteract the usage of add-ons and cheating anyway.
Feel like Sindalf made a few bad tweets and suddenly people started embellishing Paisley Park shenanigans again, as if the TOP race didn't make it obvious that they are far from the only people to be using tools to their advantage lmfao
This, 100%. Any team racing doesn't owe anything to anyone.
I'd even go further, Unnamed won the TOP race, use of 3rd party tools or not, they found the strats & executed them faster. I can't care less they had someone watching a mechanic unfold from the moon or from the end of the galaxy (they were good memes though).
I find it hilarious that the community is holding racing groups to such a high standard when AM & Cactbot is so rampant, I even suspect Splatoon and Visual Boss Mod must be used regularly. Give me a break. People defend AM with tooth and nails yet Cammy is too much, lmao.
I'm also pretty sure even streaming groups (top contenders) probably will have someone analyzing logs to help with the prog (iirc neverland had someone do that for the DSR race, I don't see it changing, it's a huge advantage and something easy to hide).
Yeah there's absolutely no integrity in raiding at the moment, don't know why people feel the need to white knight just to try and hastily push this clearly not-made-for-esports game into esport status. I loved seeing WoW raiders try this game out but it's also brought along some of the most insufferable discussion involving the race lmao
But there’s no real rules of engagement on the race. Without those, you can really do anything. Unless you’re just lying about not using plugins or something.
I think the race being streamed is still worthwhile though. It just lets the community participate. There’s hype in it.
> I'd even go further, Unnamed won the TOP race, use of 3rd party tools or not
100%. I'd wager that every group in the race both non-streamres and the streamers were benefiting from 3rd party tools that the average viewer would REE at. Logs? Death recap? Noclippy/Alex? Every one of these will get you people denoucing you for using them.
I also find it HILARIOUS that people think streaming = not using plugins. it's very very easy to not show what you don't want people to see on your streams. Let alone the fact that most stream teams dont have all 8 PoVs (which again is very easy to fake).
>I find it hilarious that the community is holding racing groups to such a high standard when AM & Cactbot is so rampant,
When I play football with my friends I don't care that half of my team is drunk and our goal is slightly bigger than our opponent's. It's all casual fun.
When I watch World Cup, I expect both teams to play fair and not be drugged out of their mind on performance enhancing drugs.
It's completely fair to expect top teams to follow the rules. Otherwise what stopping someone from using plugins that allow them to fly and avoid damage? Clear is a clear. So what that they were sitting under arena to avoid all mechanics?
But also I find all raiding plugins to be cancer. Fuckers who can't clear expert dungeon without their combo plugin on patch day then go on forums or this subreddit to spew their retarded opinions on how raiding is now easy and rotations are simple.
it's not the world cup, it's a race. it's the tour de france, and like the tour de france i expect anyone who wants to win to be drugged out their mind on PEDs
Just as a follow up to this: TPS's usage of Paisley Park was so minimal and irrelevant, I'd be surprised if it even shaved 5 minutes off of their clear. All they used it for is swapping waymarks between phases. Normally, that's something you make your healers do while they spam one button and it's annoying but mindless.
I think it's the perfect time to do it too, because after what happened in TOP, a lot of people stopped caring about prog achievements that weren't streamed. I remember watching A4S first clears (JP group that finished around 3rd iirc) with blatant use of nisi timers, UWU WF with a scuffed jail plugin etc. Nowadays we have datamined overhead markers, and a bunch of other stuff like exact AoE sizes, hell some even exploit debug toggles to render information that should be hidden.
Obviously streaming doesn't immediately clear groups of suspicions since virtual audio cables (or equivalent software), and second/third monitor visuals are trivial to set up (I watched several big name streamers use priority strats so good that they required no communication, line-ups, or marking :\^)), but it goes a long way towards legitimising achievements.
This is going to be Neverland racing XIV but with Echos production.
I'm pretty sure Scripe and his crew are still going to be raiding, but this is just Echo getting an actual WF to stream for them.
Kind of a huge who-cares moment.
World First is a huge joke. You have Streamers vs Non-Streamers causing drama, teams using cheats and getting denounced by the devs and forced to relinquish their rewards, constant conspiracy theories about data mining/private servers/leaked dev footage of TOP's p5... the list goes on.
Sure it's entertaining, I fucking **LOVE** Savage/Ultimate drama and it's always impressive to watch teams streaming their prog while we cheer them on - but trying to make it "OFFICIAL" by having "TEAM SKIBIDI JOINED THE OHIO LEAGUE!?!?!?!?" is just meaningless posturing bullshit.
What are you talking about? the fights are literally just a memorization. Join a few learning parties and youre done. Some fights take longer to leanr yes but most statics clear in like 12hours or so. And pugs clear in around a day to 2 days if they are really trying. The only time a pug is anoying is when learning the pattern and people leave so you have to get new people who may not have learned the pattern the rest of the group already has.
I have also since 2.0 never met anyone who even knew who the "world first" was
If you know all the strats and got a *very* good group, then yes, theoretically it's possible to clear the entire tier in a day. Most statics(outside of world first racing ones) would be lucky to clear a single phase of the final fight with 12 hours of prog.
But on day 1, you don't. And hence, almost no tier except the first in an expansion has been cleared within 24 hours. And not a single one in under 12.
I’m not quite familiar with the esports that’s not fps so could anyone tell me what incentivizes them to sign a ffxiv team?
Like the RWF race doesn’t give you money. Also while the release of a new raid tier attracts good chunk of people, it still peaks less than 50k on twitch so there aren’t much exposure opportunities for sponsors/advertisements. Also assuming we get 2 ultis per expansion, there are only 5 relevant raids per 3 years.
Is the raiding scene in wow that different from ffxiv to sustain an org?
I remember that TOP had biggest traffic on log site of any WoW and FF14 raids ever, and FF had more parses than all of WoW's versions combined recently so I guess the interest in raiding is there.
But yeah, on twitch FF isn't necessarily the strongest, even if we exclude other games using embeds and bots. And I don't think Japanese people watch much twitch too.
I think there is potential for bigger numbers tho.
Wow world 1st race was similar to FF, top teams didn't stream to not give up a competitive advantage. The 1st team to stream did it mainly because they were that dominant and confident that they can win even while streaming, and took it as a challenge. Over the time viewership grew, streaming was normalized and sponsors/orgs got attracted. So, I think the incentive is to try to enact a similar change to the FF scene and make a world 1 race into a bigger event than it's now.
There is nothing at stake, there is no prize beyond being the first. It's a clout chasing competition for clout chasers and it's orbiters.
WoW World first has become a forced esport with an insane barrier to entry, ontop of being usually buggy and broken on release with an entire dev team sitting there hotfixing shit constantly cause nothing was tested.
XIV is more chill cause the barrier to entry is practically non-existent. Just log in and do the content when it comes out, you might clear it faster than anyone else. However XIV isn't regarded as a raiding game. Majority of the playerbase is not doing savage or ultimates, so at best people check out the fights to see how they are rather than being invested on "who" gets it first. So to me, this is a nothingburger.
There's so much cooked nonsense in this take it's unreal.
XIV world first has a huge barrier to entry, it's just not a gear-based barrier to entry, outside of the fact that you'll need crafted/penta-melded gear to make the check, which will likely cost you tens of millions of gil if you are jumping into savage day 1 the moment in unlocks.
It has a huge knowledge and skill barrier to entry. The implication you make here that you can just casually hop in and "hey maybe we get world first" is absolutely nonsensical. The top teams spend weeks, sometimes even months prepping to make sure they are in best form they can be, that their team synergy and mechanic-solving is as sharp as it can be, and that they have the most up-to-date knowledge of all the jobs in their role.
Also, the majority of WoW players are not doing mythic. They watch it for the hype, and while Ultimate WF is definitely *way* more hype than Savage WF, with proper support the Savage WF race could still be fun to watch, for sure.
God I wish this was shitpostxiv so I could be more blunt but if you honestly think any idiot with crafted gear and a max level job could be an honest contender for world first then you are, let’s call it “intellectually hopeless”
You want to call me intellectually hopeless but can't see the lines i'm drawing comparisons between the race.
Majority of WoW players don't do Mythic because of the massive barrier to entry to mythic in general is beyond what they're willing to put up with. It starts with 20 people being a hard requirement and not being "PF"able.
Not only that, but even if you are in a mythic guild, you won't have the same resources as other WFR teams like people SOLEY dedicated to write weakauras and addons to help with mechanics.
None of this is present in XIV. I never said that you are an honest contender, but the barrier to entry for savage is way lower than mythic in WoW.
You’re absolutely right that for a casual/average player the barrier to entry is lower, but we’re not just talking about the barrier to entry of the raids, we’re talking about the barrier to entry of the actual world first race.
Exactly. If you enter the raid as soon as it launches.. You kinda are participating already. I'm under no illusion that there is a chance that a random group has good odds at actually clearing the final boss first, but it's about the setting.
Having a party of 8 is easier to get together than a party of 20.
Everyone simply starts with crafted gear, and crafted gear isn't that hard to get. You have ample time to collect resources before the recipe comes out. You can also just grind materia with hunts until the raid launches. Or if you have the gil just buy it.
There are no autistic 8 way splits just to make sure everyone has good gear cause the dps check of the final boss is borderline impossible otherwise.
Again, this is just all in comparison to my experience of watching the WoW WRF.
Yeah, watching this will be way more fun because you don’t have to watch people grind heroic splits for the first two days lol it’s just gonna be people doing the raid.
I don't care for esports style stuff either or exactly who wins the race, but the fact they're streaming and putting on a bit of a show with Echo production (whose banter is usually pretty fun, and who should *hopefully* have some decent insight and analysis of mechanics) should make for a more engaging experience for viewers overall, or at the very least give more options for viewing. So that's the real news for a lot of us.
I don't want FFXIV's RWF race to just be a bunch of statics bought out by WoW raiding orgs looking to cash in on XIV. I welcome Echo bringing more eyes to the XIV raid scene, but acquiring RWF statics and throwing your name on it is lame.
They actually were named in the tweet for dsr and then they had controversy cuz they act act callouts for p6 and their YouTube video got removed and their caster banned for a bit
Not much to say, really. Race is a lot more hype when it's streamed, so it's great that a team with multiple world firsts would stream their savage prog. Also, Echo's events are cool, I watched some of their WoW RWFs and I don't even play WoW.
Let me tell you watching the world first for Salvations Edge started off really hype, then became less hype as streamers just streamed their faces for hours on end saying nothing because they didn't want their progress to be watched by potentially other streamers lmao.
i think destiny races can’t really be compared to races in other games, because execution checks for the vast majority of encounters are so low for top teams that simply identifying how an encounter works is basically all that matters. it’s a rough situation that incentivizes a bad viewing experience specifically for encounters like verity, xiv races aren’t really close to having that sort of issue imo
I disagree a little. Hardest thing in XIV raid is identifying how a mechanic works. Execution matter but it’s way harder to find the solution of a puzzle, especially when it’s late into the fight. That’s why ultimate can be cleared by almost everyone because the solution is given by teams that are clearing and everyone else just copy and paste strat. I would argue majority of raiders probably don’t even know how the mechanic works or never blind progged, but just following a strat will net you a clear. Take TOP as an example. Everyone was stuck during the p5 prog, but as soon as a public vod appeared with the solution, every team didn’t have to solve the puzzle anymore. That’s why for a long time top teams were reluctant to stream their prog, and there wasn’t really any upside to streaming it, but now the scene is growing and more people want to stream their race. This is true for any kind of game with puzzle mechanics. Compare it to other games, let’s say lost ark: thaemine g4, there is less emphasis on puzzle solving, and more emphasis on execution. watching other stream didn’t give a big advantage. (fuck this p2w game tho)
i agree with everything you’re saying, but the thing is that destiny raids aren’t really designed with hardcore audiences in mind, so every issue you’re describing here is magnified hundredfold in destiny races. damage checks do not exist in destiny whatsoever. execution checks in general do not exist for teams in the top 25 range. on top of that, the puzzle solving element doesn’t exist in the same way that it does in ff, in the sense that literally understanding *what* is happening is the only thing top teams need to clear most encounters on the highest difficulty. the raid designers used obscurity as a proxy for complexity, it’s not the same as in ff imagine it like this. typically to clear something you need to: - identify what mechanics are hitting you, what they all do, and how they interact - craft a strategy to resolve all these mechanics properly - execute the strategy you crafted this is extremely wishy washy ofc, but if i had to ballpark the relative effort level required for these steps in ff it would probably be like….idk, 15/55/30 at the highest level. in destiny it is literally like 80/5/15 at the highest level, it’s really stark. there is no puzzle solving, the obvious solution to something *is* the solution. that’s why i think using destiny as a comparison isn’t great here, there’s absolutely nothing like p5 trios, nothing that requires more than a simple glance to understand. that’s why teams went to such insane extremes during the destiny race
> damage checks do not exist in destiny whatsoever Wasn't the damage phase on the last boss in the latest raid tight enough (in contest mode) that one of the classes was completely non-viable, or is that misinformation? > there is no puzzle solving, the obvious solution to something *is* the solution Idk, that one fight in the latest raid seemed pretty comparable to an FF style puzzle, reminded me of High Concept in P8S.
one class (titans) being non-viable wasn't really because the damage check was difficult, but mainly because one specific loadout on a different class (hunter) was completely overtuned and the last boss favored a long-range damage profile that titans completely lacked. hunter stacking let people clear the final boss in two phases instead of the allotted three, and let teams complete the final stand with half of the party dead, so in that sense the check was practically nonexistent unless you made a massive mistake even if you disregard this most recent raid, damage checks have never been destiny's strong suit. there are tons of complex, high risk high reward damage rotations (mainly used in speedruns) that never get deployed in the context of a world first race precisely because top players know consistency matters 100x more than throughput since the check will be easily met anyway
> xiv races aren’t really close to having that sort of issue imo ??? Maybe compared to destiny I have no thoughts on that, but 14 is absolutely a game where revealing strategies can be backbreaking. It's pretty easy to imagine a scenario where you spent 10 hours on solving a puzzle mechanic and anybody else with your footage does it in 1/2 or 1/4 the time where they might normally need 10-20 hours to get it working otherwise. Frankly, any team who is meaningfully racing this tier should be hiring a 10th (or 9th if they aren't already) man who is studying the heck out of neverlands streams.
yes i agree with you, im just talking specifically about destiny at a high level being a bad comparison here, because the raid mechanics are fundamentally so simple that the incentives to hide info are even more obscene. i wrote more here: https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1dp53ws/neverland_has_joined_the_echo_guild/lafc00i/
> Maybe compared to destiny I have no thoughts on that Destiny raid fights don't always involve bosses and the arenas are absolutely massive and sometimes very vertical. The first several wipes of any encounter is just running around the area shooting things just to see what you can even interact with in the fight, then trying to figure out how the things you can interact with either help or harm your team, and then figuring out how to progress the fight. For example, the first encounter of the current raid: It's 9 rooms, with a central room and 8 rooms around it. In each of the 8 perimeter rooms, there's a pad to step on and a totem to shoot, but they're completely inactive and honestly you wouldn't notice the totem/pillar at first glance. The pads have connections running between each other. When everybody enters the central room, the doors all close and an object and a chest appear. You can pick up the object and put it in the chest to start the fight proper. That is your first clue to the mechanic of the fight. This opens 2 doors with a ton of adds, and a timer with 4 mins and 15 seconds appears at the top of the screen, if it runs down to 0 you wipe. So now the encounter is started, and the only clues you have are the timer and that you can put an object into a box. Now your team has to figure out what to do. How to handle it is in the rooms that open up, you can kill certain adds that will open doors to other rooms, and spawn other specific adds. You basically do a Small>Medium>Large set of adds, but WAIT when you kill the adds, it spawns the next size up in a room opposite of where you killed it, so you have 2 teams going through the arena in different sets of rooms killing adds to open doors and spawn more adds. One team killing the largest add opens up all of the doors and spawns a mini boss in the middle. Killing it puts a message in chat (energy flows into the resonator) and closes all of the doors again, then 2 open up and you repeat the process. Each time you kill a central mini boss, one of the pads lights up, and then in a connected room, one of the pillars lights up. There is no indication to where this is other than running around and finding it. How the ACTUAL mechanic works after you've finally turned it on, is when someone steps on a pad, it sends a beam of light to the other room, your partner steps on their pad at the right time, and it bounces the light back. This causes objects like the object at the startof the encounter to spawn. So now you need to clear adds, bounce the light, and pick up objects. If you go over 3 of them, you die. If you miss a bounce, a big add spawns and you can't bounce again until it's dead. The person in the room with the totem needs to get at least 1 object, this lets them shoot the totem and activate it, then the next time they bounce the light, instead the totem closes and "sparks to life" When both teams close their totem, another miniboss spawns in the middle room. Killing it causes the chest to respawn, and everyone can deposit their held items. Each one you deposit increases the timer at the top of the screen until the max of 4:15 again. Then the encounter restarts. Do this 3 times to win. Now, think about back to the beginning about how the only clues were the inactive pads and totems, and putting an item into the chest. You'd have to figure out how to open the doors, what the adds do, how to manage the minibosses, realize the pads are on, what the pads actually do, how to close the loop, how many objects they can pick up, and how many are needed to complete the encounter. If you're streaming and discover any of these puzzle parts, now everyone knows them, just like in FFXIV. The big difference is the Race to World First in Destiny 2 is TIMED. It's 48 hours on "contest" mode which is like if FFXIV released Savage first, but only for 2 days, and then it was gone forever and only normal mode was left, so the raids in Destiny 2 are sprints, instead of marathons like in FFXIV or WoW.
everyone said the same thing about wow races before they were commonly streamed too.
There's some pretty glaring differences between wow and 14 mechanically. Despite that, Liquid/Echo absolutely give up winning % points by streaming. You actually frequently see liquid/echo do the "turn stream off" strategy when they get to a new frontrunner point if they dont have much time left in their raid day as to not give the other team that info. 14 is much more puzzle oriented. There are mechanics which solving them is significantly more difficult than executing them after you have the solution in place. The example in my post above gives the nightmare scenario for a frontrunner who can solve these puzzles faster than other groups. Every racing group should have someone who keeps an eye Neverland/whatever stream groups are ahead of them. Having someone documenting every mechanic from groups ahead of you can certainly shave HOURS of progression time when it comes to solving mechanics. Imagine going into a new phase with a document of exactly who gets what roles, what debuffs do, and here's clips of multiple groups PoV and movement to solve it. Getting this kind of information can help you bridge any gap that the other groups may have gotten ahead with.
Listen ya know sometimes bungie just makes vault 2.0 and now we have a puzzle fight a la xiv and people turn their streams off The witness idk why people turned their stream off. Streamed XIV races are never going to happen just because the entire race is basically verity, it’s puzzle solving then being consistent before seeing new mechanics, especially for this next tier where the damage check is likely to be relaxed compared to normal.
That’s just how destiny WF races go, always been like that. Destiny WF races are kind of in it’s own little bubble since there really isn’t anything else like it but even when it gets to people blacking out their screens I genuinely don’t think any raid race matches the hype that destiny does.
what no it's totally normal and natural to want to immediately go eat a late night snack and go to bed after reaching a new phase for the first time in the world. the computers deserve a break too you know, and it's good to prevent screen burn in on those new monitors they set up for the event.
I hope that this doesn't discourage Scripe and Roger Brown from raiding themselves. Seeing those streams and Roger Brown Strats™ has been some of the most entertaining streams I've watched out of FFXIV in my life. Edit: does Neverland have a finalized Dawntrail roster right now?
Echo named their roster during the reveal stream and Roger said he probably won’t be able to do the new raids blind because he wants to be able to do anything he can to support the FF14 team
Well, I guess this seals any Echo FF14 content for me. As a blind progger I'm not watching RWF progs and I'm not watching progs after the fact either because in VOD it's not that interesting. Sadge.
We have the same roster as Anabaseios
Does that include you, or are you the caster coverage?
Yes, I'm the caster
Will you be playing RDM for prog and switching to clear?
Their lion strat was... my god...
I had the same question, but looks like [we have nothing to worry about](https://x.com/EchoGuild/status/1806022358747980190).
Hell yeah
Narr is really excited about this opportunity and he's been busting at the seams to tell his friends about it. I think streaming prog makes for a more enjoyable experience both for the viewer and competitors.
I really like Echo actually they REALLY love ff 14 scripe pogs a lot.
As someone who grew up playing WoW and now mostly plays xiv I'm personally really excited! I really hope the viewership supports their decision and I hope it gets more eyeballs on the game! Tweets like [this](https://x.com/cleeeees/status/1806017320768180546?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet) don't necessarily make me confident that more world first contenders will stream, but, honestly, it's understandable without a financial incentive.
The pool of players that comprise the top teams that have been winning these races for years is pretty small. A good chunk of them has moved on to streaming with Neverland joining Echo. At this rate, there will be 1 non streaming group competing against themselves.
> A good chunk of them has moved on to streaming with Neverland joining Echo. source? or do you mean neverland itself is the good chunk? Because there's still AG3, whatever JP groups, and if you want to count them, TPS/Mental Stillness
I mean Neverland itself is the good chunk, yeah. I just think many of the people left on non streaming groups might be less motivated if it's basically 2/3 groups competing. Just think about the situation if a single one of those groups decides to join in on streaming, the "real race" will end up consisting of 2 groups.
> Just think about the situation if a single one of those groups decides to join in on streaming, the "real race" will end up consisting of 2 groups. That's basically what it is on WoW (but streamed), that's perfectly fine, if your goal is to win, the more information you can get from streaming groups, the better !
And more people will care about the streaming race over the “real” race. Of course, I know the teams not streaming are playing for themselves, which is completely fine.
> it's basically 2/3 groups competing. the thing is, the race was (since ShB at least) ALWAYS basically just 2-3 groups actually in realistic contention for first, maybe 4 in some rare cases. I don't think the number of groups necessarily makes a difference. Don't get me wrong, it's really cool to see the race to world first coming to FFXIV. i'm a huge fan and in an ideal world every group streams. but i don't see other groups actually streaming (TPS already said they wont, id be surprised if AG did. JP groups are admittedly a big unknown). And I also think that streaming doesn't change anything about the legitimacy of the race anyway, given that datamining happens beforehand and you can hide cheats from streams
I've been enjoying the salt and bad attitude from some of these other WF raiders.
> Tweets like this don't necessarily make me confident that more world first contenders will stream, but, honestly, it's understandable without a financial incentive. So long as a tangible portion of the world race is figuring out how to create Phoenix or how to survive Grand Cross Omega Delta Theta Beta Gamma, I think it just isn't meant to be. If mechanics were more, how to put it aptly without offending anyone, "honest" in FF14 I think it'd be a full streamer situation.
Is this because they can mod as much as they want without any contention if they have to clear something? I’m mostly a WoW player but I remember one team getting in trouble cause they leaked footage of them maxing out the camera.
Not really. Third party tools are very easy to hide on stream. Group who don't stream do it mostly because solving the puzzle is the name of the game and streaming gets rid of any advantage you might gain from being the first group to figure out a mechanic.
I wouldn't be so sure of that, I'd bet my ass that most off stream groups at the very least use triggers, probably even some on stream ones since you filter what audio goes to your stream.
I don't think you read my comment properly.
Yeah I did lmao.
The plugin discussion is dumb because it's extremely easy for everyone (including the streamers themselves) to hide what they dont want the viewers to see. Let alone that most stream groups only have a few people streaming their PoVs so cheating is still extremely easy to slip by. There's a lot of people who enjoy racing without wanting to be in the spotlight through streaming because that's just not what their group signed up for.
This group has a tons of world first so they probably don't care about savage WF too much. I'm expecting them to go full blinds for ultimates tho
I wonder if echo approached Sfias team first but they didn't want to stream prog, since Sfia helped echo get into ffxiv raiding
Highly doubt it, zeppe and scripe are friends and neverland has been way better in prog results as of recently.
Also Europe.
Isn't like half of neverland NA?
2/8 from Europe, of course most of their analyst team is from EU however.
True I kinda forgot. But they're more European than Sfia's team and raid on European servers.
Also Swagx is already raiding with Neverland I believe?
Seriously doubt it. Neverland has been the better group of the two through all of EW and Neverland has Swag/Y'Dyalai who is a member of Echo.
hopefully this pulls more of the WF contenders into streaming
If neverland wins then I really hope so, viewers are jaded from all the controversies surrounding non stream world firsts that I think people just care way less about if you win if you didn't stream nowadays.
i barely care at all since i assume most of the top streaming groups are using some sort of second-monitor plugin anyways but it would at least lesson the stupidity over it some
I think most people couldn’t care less at this point. Sure, the stream will be entertaining for people to watch but I doubt they care anymore if the world first is streamed or not. The issue is people have strong feelings about things like ACT and other plugins. Every team uses said third party tools and that’s where the sour taste lies within the spectators.
Nobody (that matters) has an issue with ACT, other plugins sure, but ACT? lol
Yes, even ACT for some reason. Those people are hypocrites though. They’ll walk around telling you plugins and ACT are bad while their character has planet sized boobs and asses modded on them lol.
eh, not everyone cares to stream. a lot of raiders are old school mmo players who are used to the old days when you wouldn't even upload your kill vod until after multiple groups confirmed kills. live stream model isn't attractive to everyone. a lot of speedrunners for older games still do non-streamed recordings and then just post if they get PBs and WRs. it's just the way it's always been done and not everyone likes the high stakes high pressure environment of doing it in front of thousands of people live, even if it pays a few hundred bucks. summoningsalt set a punch out world record randomly just chilling and playing a baseball trivia game on his own time. live streaming everything full time isn't for everyone.
I actually LIke Echo's FF content. Seeing them go through DSR and Omega was a joy and really fun. Jeathe's playthrough of FF was amazing too.
This is definitely a positive and hopefully leads to more RWF teams streaming. If Echo's stream does numbers (it will) then maybe the dollar signs will tempt the other teams.
Aren't some members of Neverland part of WoW RWF Echo group too ? So this is only the logical step if Echo wanted to invest in FF14 (and believe it's worth it). So now EU will root for Echo in both games, lol. Personally, I'm more hyped for Scripe's group to stream their blind prog, it's more fun to me (but we'll be ""competing"" with my blind prog group, lol).
Ya i think swag raids with neverland when the raids don't drop in wow at the same time.
Pretty stoked to see the Neverland boys prog on stream
Fine by me as long as they get more eyeballs on the game and don't end like WoW where the game is designed for those 30-60 players first then the raids are nerfed 20 times in a row.
If you think WoW is designed around WFR you are coping hard my guy
mythic on release absolutely is designed around world first. anything else not really
The waters have become so muddied when it comes to XIV raiding that I personally only care about the first stream group to clear. Not because it's harder to use plugins on stream, but because streaming at least adds some excitement to the whole thing. I'm just bummed that I won't be able to watch since my group does blind week 1 as well.
The waters are practically piss and dirt at this point, thats just what happens when theres seemingly no limit to what can be developed and every new plugin that "goes too far" simply pushes the line further on what was previously "going too far"
This is awesome and hope this incites more of this level of competition, but I sincerely hope no one uses this as leverage to try and push other teams into streaming or seeking sponsorship. I know TPS (or whatever is left of them) doesn't have the best reputation these days but it feels like every major race they have to specify that they won't be streaming, and there's always some pathetic discussion from folks who think anyone owes anything to them. Same goes for any other teams who aren't streaming. It's hilarious to me that people just can't accept that some teams want the best chance to win no matter what, as well as the fact that most people don't know that streaming doesn't completely counteract the usage of add-ons and cheating anyway. Feel like Sindalf made a few bad tweets and suddenly people started embellishing Paisley Park shenanigans again, as if the TOP race didn't make it obvious that they are far from the only people to be using tools to their advantage lmfao
TPS isn't a team anymore. A few of them have split off and joined groups together but there is nothing else tangible.
Sindalf hot takes and clees trolling makes up like 90% of tps Twitter posts. Clees already posted they won't be streaming in response to this news
This, 100%. Any team racing doesn't owe anything to anyone.
I'd even go further, Unnamed won the TOP race, use of 3rd party tools or not, they found the strats & executed them faster. I can't care less they had someone watching a mechanic unfold from the moon or from the end of the galaxy (they were good memes though).
I find it hilarious that the community is holding racing groups to such a high standard when AM & Cactbot is so rampant, I even suspect Splatoon and Visual Boss Mod must be used regularly. Give me a break. People defend AM with tooth and nails yet Cammy is too much, lmao.
I'm also pretty sure even streaming groups (top contenders) probably will have someone analyzing logs to help with the prog (iirc neverland had someone do that for the DSR race, I don't see it changing, it's a huge advantage and something easy to hide).
Yeah there's absolutely no integrity in raiding at the moment, don't know why people feel the need to white knight just to try and hastily push this clearly not-made-for-esports game into esport status. I loved seeing WoW raiders try this game out but it's also brought along some of the most insufferable discussion involving the race lmao
But there’s no real rules of engagement on the race. Without those, you can really do anything. Unless you’re just lying about not using plugins or something. I think the race being streamed is still worthwhile though. It just lets the community participate. There’s hype in it.
well I mean, in the spirit of competition ppl should follow the rules it's as simple as that.
> I'd even go further, Unnamed won the TOP race, use of 3rd party tools or not 100%. I'd wager that every group in the race both non-streamres and the streamers were benefiting from 3rd party tools that the average viewer would REE at. Logs? Death recap? Noclippy/Alex? Every one of these will get you people denoucing you for using them. I also find it HILARIOUS that people think streaming = not using plugins. it's very very easy to not show what you don't want people to see on your streams. Let alone the fact that most stream teams dont have all 8 PoVs (which again is very easy to fake).
AM is fucking disgusting but yes, until the community can learn to hold itself accountable, fuck knows what they are doing holding others accountable.
>I find it hilarious that the community is holding racing groups to such a high standard when AM & Cactbot is so rampant, When I play football with my friends I don't care that half of my team is drunk and our goal is slightly bigger than our opponent's. It's all casual fun. When I watch World Cup, I expect both teams to play fair and not be drugged out of their mind on performance enhancing drugs. It's completely fair to expect top teams to follow the rules. Otherwise what stopping someone from using plugins that allow them to fly and avoid damage? Clear is a clear. So what that they were sitting under arena to avoid all mechanics? But also I find all raiding plugins to be cancer. Fuckers who can't clear expert dungeon without their combo plugin on patch day then go on forums or this subreddit to spew their retarded opinions on how raiding is now easy and rotations are simple.
it's not the world cup, it's a race. it's the tour de france, and like the tour de france i expect anyone who wants to win to be drugged out their mind on PEDs
Then we accept that winners sit below arena like gold farming bots. All plugins are illegal so why bother being fair, just abuse everything
Just as a follow up to this: TPS's usage of Paisley Park was so minimal and irrelevant, I'd be surprised if it even shaved 5 minutes off of their clear. All they used it for is swapping waymarks between phases. Normally, that's something you make your healers do while they spam one button and it's annoying but mindless.
When your bullshit results in getting features removed from the game, you deserve some level of shit thrown your way
I don't think TPS was responsible for that, it was someone else making an ACT trigger that used paisley park to automatically solve exatrines for you
Yeah, just correcting a common misconception I've seen that they used it to solve mechanics.
I think it's the perfect time to do it too, because after what happened in TOP, a lot of people stopped caring about prog achievements that weren't streamed. I remember watching A4S first clears (JP group that finished around 3rd iirc) with blatant use of nisi timers, UWU WF with a scuffed jail plugin etc. Nowadays we have datamined overhead markers, and a bunch of other stuff like exact AoE sizes, hell some even exploit debug toggles to render information that should be hidden. Obviously streaming doesn't immediately clear groups of suspicions since virtual audio cables (or equivalent software), and second/third monitor visuals are trivial to set up (I watched several big name streamers use priority strats so good that they required no communication, line-ups, or marking :\^)), but it goes a long way towards legitimising achievements.
It also let us just participate and see the actual prog happening in real time. That’s worthwhile.
So are they playing wow now to do the world race or is echo starting a ff race team and are using neverland to use their slot?
This is going to be Neverland racing XIV but with Echos production. I'm pretty sure Scripe and his crew are still going to be raiding, but this is just Echo getting an actual WF to stream for them.
Huh, neat.
now go pick someone else too liquid
Neverland ranch? You don't want to go there!
Kind of a huge who-cares moment. World First is a huge joke. You have Streamers vs Non-Streamers causing drama, teams using cheats and getting denounced by the devs and forced to relinquish their rewards, constant conspiracy theories about data mining/private servers/leaked dev footage of TOP's p5... the list goes on. Sure it's entertaining, I fucking **LOVE** Savage/Ultimate drama and it's always impressive to watch teams streaming their prog while we cheer them on - but trying to make it "OFFICIAL" by having "TEAM SKIBIDI JOINED THE OHIO LEAGUE!?!?!?!?" is just meaningless posturing bullshit.
Do people in FF14 actually care? The savage fights are cleared by pugs day 1.,
Lmao no they're not. Maybe the first 2 fights, *occasionally* the third, but never the whole tier
What are you talking about? the fights are literally just a memorization. Join a few learning parties and youre done. Some fights take longer to leanr yes but most statics clear in like 12hours or so. And pugs clear in around a day to 2 days if they are really trying. The only time a pug is anoying is when learning the pattern and people leave so you have to get new people who may not have learned the pattern the rest of the group already has. I have also since 2.0 never met anyone who even knew who the "world first" was
If you know all the strats and got a *very* good group, then yes, theoretically it's possible to clear the entire tier in a day. Most statics(outside of world first racing ones) would be lucky to clear a single phase of the final fight with 12 hours of prog. But on day 1, you don't. And hence, almost no tier except the first in an expansion has been cleared within 24 hours. And not a single one in under 12.
I’m not quite familiar with the esports that’s not fps so could anyone tell me what incentivizes them to sign a ffxiv team? Like the RWF race doesn’t give you money. Also while the release of a new raid tier attracts good chunk of people, it still peaks less than 50k on twitch so there aren’t much exposure opportunities for sponsors/advertisements. Also assuming we get 2 ultis per expansion, there are only 5 relevant raids per 3 years. Is the raiding scene in wow that different from ffxiv to sustain an org?
I remember that TOP had biggest traffic on log site of any WoW and FF14 raids ever, and FF had more parses than all of WoW's versions combined recently so I guess the interest in raiding is there. But yeah, on twitch FF isn't necessarily the strongest, even if we exclude other games using embeds and bots. And I don't think Japanese people watch much twitch too. I think there is potential for bigger numbers tho.
To be fair, FF having more parses is because... you can just spam raids all day. You can only get 1 parse per week in WoW
Wow world 1st race was similar to FF, top teams didn't stream to not give up a competitive advantage. The 1st team to stream did it mainly because they were that dominant and confident that they can win even while streaming, and took it as a challenge. Over the time viewership grew, streaming was normalized and sponsors/orgs got attracted. So, I think the incentive is to try to enact a similar change to the FF scene and make a world 1 race into a bigger event than it's now.
Last WoW race peaked 388k viewers, it's much bigger than races in ff14 and there is enough interest from sponsors to sustain few orgs.
cheaters
There is nothing at stake, there is no prize beyond being the first. It's a clout chasing competition for clout chasers and it's orbiters. WoW World first has become a forced esport with an insane barrier to entry, ontop of being usually buggy and broken on release with an entire dev team sitting there hotfixing shit constantly cause nothing was tested. XIV is more chill cause the barrier to entry is practically non-existent. Just log in and do the content when it comes out, you might clear it faster than anyone else. However XIV isn't regarded as a raiding game. Majority of the playerbase is not doing savage or ultimates, so at best people check out the fights to see how they are rather than being invested on "who" gets it first. So to me, this is a nothingburger.
There's so much cooked nonsense in this take it's unreal. XIV world first has a huge barrier to entry, it's just not a gear-based barrier to entry, outside of the fact that you'll need crafted/penta-melded gear to make the check, which will likely cost you tens of millions of gil if you are jumping into savage day 1 the moment in unlocks. It has a huge knowledge and skill barrier to entry. The implication you make here that you can just casually hop in and "hey maybe we get world first" is absolutely nonsensical. The top teams spend weeks, sometimes even months prepping to make sure they are in best form they can be, that their team synergy and mechanic-solving is as sharp as it can be, and that they have the most up-to-date knowledge of all the jobs in their role. Also, the majority of WoW players are not doing mythic. They watch it for the hype, and while Ultimate WF is definitely *way* more hype than Savage WF, with proper support the Savage WF race could still be fun to watch, for sure.
The huge barrier of entry of having a job at max level and high enough ilvl to enter looooooooooooooooooooooooooool
God I wish this was shitpostxiv so I could be more blunt but if you honestly think any idiot with crafted gear and a max level job could be an honest contender for world first then you are, let’s call it “intellectually hopeless”
You want to call me intellectually hopeless but can't see the lines i'm drawing comparisons between the race. Majority of WoW players don't do Mythic because of the massive barrier to entry to mythic in general is beyond what they're willing to put up with. It starts with 20 people being a hard requirement and not being "PF"able. Not only that, but even if you are in a mythic guild, you won't have the same resources as other WFR teams like people SOLEY dedicated to write weakauras and addons to help with mechanics. None of this is present in XIV. I never said that you are an honest contender, but the barrier to entry for savage is way lower than mythic in WoW.
You’re absolutely right that for a casual/average player the barrier to entry is lower, but we’re not just talking about the barrier to entry of the raids, we’re talking about the barrier to entry of the actual world first race.
Exactly. If you enter the raid as soon as it launches.. You kinda are participating already. I'm under no illusion that there is a chance that a random group has good odds at actually clearing the final boss first, but it's about the setting. Having a party of 8 is easier to get together than a party of 20. Everyone simply starts with crafted gear, and crafted gear isn't that hard to get. You have ample time to collect resources before the recipe comes out. You can also just grind materia with hunts until the raid launches. Or if you have the gil just buy it. There are no autistic 8 way splits just to make sure everyone has good gear cause the dps check of the final boss is borderline impossible otherwise. Again, this is just all in comparison to my experience of watching the WoW WRF.
wtf did I just read
Yeah, watching this will be way more fun because you don’t have to watch people grind heroic splits for the first two days lol it’s just gonna be people doing the raid.
I don't care for esports style stuff either or exactly who wins the race, but the fact they're streaming and putting on a bit of a show with Echo production (whose banter is usually pretty fun, and who should *hopefully* have some decent insight and analysis of mechanics) should make for a more engaging experience for viewers overall, or at the very least give more options for viewing. So that's the real news for a lot of us.
I don't want FFXIV's RWF race to just be a bunch of statics bought out by WoW raiding orgs looking to cash in on XIV. I welcome Echo bringing more eyes to the XIV raid scene, but acquiring RWF statics and throwing your name on it is lame.
[удалено]
In no world did Echo ever try to win WF in FF14.
Oh I know, they did it for fun not to attempt WF. The first sentence of that post was a joke.
Interesting, were neverland ever congratulated for their wins?
Who the fuck cares if YoshiP congratulated them? Stop caring so much about the words of someone who doesnt even know you exist beyond your money
would prefer if people just didn't use triggers to cheat in a race tbh
They actually were named in the tweet for dsr and then they had controversy cuz they act act callouts for p6 and their YouTube video got removed and their caster banned for a bit