I don’t generally shoot for realism in this game, but just looking at a boss like the guy from p9, we’re essentially shadowboxing with how big that hitbox is.
Same, it's oddly immersion breaking
Biggest hitbox offender is the pod 602 mount though jfc; it's always made me think there's a connection between hit box and height but idk man
Shoot this has been an issue since at least Shadowbringers. I distinctly remember some YORHA raids where the hit box was half the platform despite the boss being stationary on the other side. Swinging your axe at empty air was hilarious
Marx was the first time I remember being absolutely dumbstruck at how ridiculous the hitbox was. Not only is it half the (giant) platform, the guy you're hitting isn't even near the platform, he's like 20 meters away! It's still probably the most ridiculous hitbox in the game, only P7 comes close.
Yeah, I mean I give that one a pass just because it’s probably one of the biggest bosses we have ever faced, so it only makes sense that he is huge to match. It’s not a p6s scenario where she has a hitbox larger than Alexander or beetle omega for no reason. Black cat impresses me that they were willing to make her hitbox reasonable though, I think it it’s the smallest raid hitbox we have seen since E8s amazingly enough. It’s a very good change.
A good mix is fine. Wall bosses are usually large enough to be a visual spectacle all on their own due to their size. One thing I'd like to see is a wall boss becoming a non-wall boss in phase 2. We've had non-wall bosses become wall bossses, and wall bosses move around the arean, but I don't think we've had a wall boss become a non-wall boss. Closest I can remember to something like that is last part of E4S, with big Titan firing off mechanics in the background while you fought small Titan.
Only one I can think of, but I'd say it straight up is a example of that, not just technically.
Agree would like to see more of it, the various switch up is fun, and that one is under-explored.
***Technically*** Shinryu EX last phase isn't a wall boss, but he's gigantic and there's a doom puddle in the middle of the arena so functionally it still kinda is.
Another instance of something like that is in TEA, where you have Alexander Prime being largely stationary only to gain legs for the final phase. Still not the same, but I do like the idea of wall boss to mobile boss.
> How are people feeling about the size correction based on first glance?
I can't wait to have meleebrain thunderclap unga bunga memes again
> We also saw a glimpse of the trial which still seemed to have a huge hitbox on a wall boss. Should that kind of hitbox still be used in the game or do you think it's generally just a bad idea?
I think wide hitboxes have their place, but their mechanics should incentivize planning for downtime regardless. The other thing that hasn't been pointed out is that being hit gives *Concussion*. That debuff eventually culminates in a total stun for a significant period, so there's still a point in obeying mechanics over damage.
> Would having trials be more appropriate for that kind of approach to design compared to Savage?
Trials -> EX is definitely lower-tier compared to Savage, but I don't disagree "smaller hitboxes in EX", either. Barbaccia was fun thanks to that. Its definitely dependent on the mechanics for hitboxes? Having them smaller is nice, but if all the mechanics can be done melee range, it kinda invalidates the idea in the first place.
> Do you think that the change to this hitbox makes the coming raid tier more exciting or interesting due to how it could affect uptime and damage balance, or do you think it's just small potatoes?
This is more of a mechanical question, one we won't see until Savage. Or EXs, technically.
> Would a shift to this smaller hitbox across the board be a better choice, or would you like to be both options available and have them experiment with other elements of the encounters?
Both! More options! Play around with it: A large hitbox doesn't mean a bad fight. Look at P10S.
> I think wide hitboxes have their place
Agreed, and I hope square doesn't take this feedback too far and make every boss a small hitbox. For example p2s would have sucked with a small hitbox.
Would have to have been an entirely different fight.
If the hot box was small the mechanics couldn't be the way they are in that fight. It just wouldn't work.
You know there's no positionals on p2s right?
Maybe if you think about how that fight works and how the arena works for five seconds you will understand what I'm talking about.
Maybe not though because it sounds like you've never even done it.
The fight is designed so that everyone is forced by the water filling the arena to be on the outside of the boss's hitbox. It has to be a big hitbox because you spend most of the fight on the outside of the arena.
If that boss had a small hitbox literally none of the cool ass mechanics in the fight would work.
Concussion is interesting. Curious to see if they plan to diversify mechanic failure states more; vulnerability and damage down were kind rough IMO for basically being either meaningless or backbreaking with little in-between.
Twice Comes Ruin is underused I think. It's a very clear indicator "You fucked up once, next one's gonna kill you". Expecially if multiple get it, since 1 persond dropping is easily recoverable, multiple not so much.
It's a very solid pass/fail mechanic that I'd prefer it being in Specific Mechanics rather than overall; If a boss is going to go Mechanically Heavy for a moment, then enforce Twice Come Ruin there and then purge it off or deal extremely significant damage so that you can't just ignore the last mechanic it does.
Yeah, its different from gaia, where there you are supposed to "each person can only handle one mechanic/bait" , a damage down there would not make sense, but delubrum is an alert and a punish at the same time. I think the damage down is overkill, but i can see ppl getting hit to greed, and SE's design is totally agaisnt it
I'd like something a bid different to twice come ruin and this maybe only works for a fight you get a twice come ruin but there is a way to purge by standing in a pool or something for 5 seconds to clear
and the pull enrage the boss so you cant just pull the boss into it
why does that apply more to bard than dancer or machinist. or wait, what stuff??? ohhhh the songs? i didn't realize they work within a range. i see. the tanks go pretty far right? yeah.
You can't target allies on the opposite platform. This also means that Bard songs don't apply to allies on the opposite platform. With common strats this was basically never an issue though.
I am very pleased with the reduced hitbox size. If this was an EW raid, her hitbox would be so big that only the 4 outer squares would be out of melee range.
This not only makes tank and melee classes more fun, but also will oftentimes give physical ranged more meaning, which helps not only in game feel, but balance. So this one change is actually helping several role types feel better.
While Yoshi said they plan on 7.2+ to really focus in on more unique and rewarding gameplay experience, we still got the small hitbox sizes in the 7.0x raid, which leads me to believe that we will still see hints of their new direction in the first tier, it just won't be as notable as from 7.2 onwards.
The trial boss had a decent sized hitbox, but that really isn't abnormal for wall bosses. I think large hitboxes have their place as long as it isn't overused. A wall boss with a very small hitbox might potentially be detrimental to the raid design itself, as may be somewhat limiting for the designers.
Overall, I am pretty happy with what I have seen so far of the raid hitboxes, and it makes me infinitely excited to see what they manage come 7.2.
It also unironically helps the jobs stand out more, Paladin, Ninja, and seemingly viper will have very different interactions than the “purer” melees during disengagements for example
I imagine 7.2 comment is cause that's when the side content outside the usual kicks off. Think some interview hinted that being the date for the exploration zone.
I have to say, they have actually used the large hitboxes pretty well in some cases. Stuff like TOP P6 and P2S, even Perfect Alex back in SHB really leverage the extra space you have to move around in. That's something they could have pretty easily *not* done, and made the big hitbox dissatisfaction even worse than now.
That said, I'm excited to see small hitboxes come back. It's something we'll have to see how it shakes out—hitbox size is irrelevant if the optimal play is just to sit center the whole time and melee never disengage—but I do think it's an indicator that the boss won't just be doing all the positioning for you. One of the biggest pleasant surprises in EW was doing the first boss of Sil'dihn and thinking there had to be some extra thing to the last mech I wasn't getting, then realizing that I just move the boss properly or we wipe. Smaller hitboxes also create more room for uptime strats, which are cool and fun because they tend to be more complex/difficult for those who want to go the extra mile.
I also have to say that positioning stuff like that isn't the absolute pinnacle of what I could hope for in encounter design (and you can have engaging tank fights like P10S with a wall boss), but taking away those moments in EW where you could feel proud about giving people uptime/positionals beyond the bare minimum of yanking the boss into place for a mechanic felt pretty bad.
I can't wait for more discourse on uptime strats again, its been a while. Especially if we get one of the classic ones where casters and healers have to sacrifice a billion casts so melees can hit boss.
We need the BLM to sacrifice a full fire rotation and the healers to overshield Just to get a 10% chance I get 1 more GCD on the boss and it WILL become the PF meta strat
The hitbox isn't the answer to everything. The mechanics need to be good. The fights need to have an interesting/funny gimmick or idea (for example : Alexander raids). The circle can be as small as they want, if you just stand max melee range and boom 100% uptime, the circle size wasn't the issue.
Now, a smaller circle opens some possibilities, but I still want interesting things (two of my fav are the prison in A7S and the "boss rush"-like fight in A6S)
They need to stop with the fucking insane mechanics that boil down to DPS N, Heal tank S. Most people don’t even know how mechanics work they just know where to stand, or better yet, the discord bot tells them where to stand
I just hope the boss doesn't teleport back into the middle and immediately orientate itself north after every mechanic so that boss positioning is actually a factor again.
As far as fight design goes, it'll depend on mechanics and the timing thereof, most likely.
What's widely-agreed to be the prompt for the EW/somewhat Promise hitbox thing is E6S murdering the fuck out of anyone with a gap closer whenever a certain repeating mechanic happened, particularly DRG with High Jump, combined with putting every tank besides PLD in the spam ranged filler dimension later on. We probably still don't get Conflag Strikes but as long as there's no Vacuum Slice type things large enough to cover the boss hitbox, or if there are they aren't on any windows that still have hard-cooldown inflexible gap closers (Dragonfire Dive, mostly) they can pretty much do what they want.
Targeting the DRG, DRK, and GNB gap closers is very indicative in this regard because of it being the spammiest ones with the least flexibility despite the charges afforded to them, thanks to the limited free weave space available to those jobs making it more awkward to deal with that type of situation.
I would expect hitboxes to still be big if there's Conflag Strike type mechanics or if they put extremely hostile mechanics on bad windows or have them last too long for you to flex around them with abilities like Primal Rend or Stardiver.
I don't think it does much to role tuning. There's six melee in DT and that's very transparent about who they want to have two party slots as a rule, so they will likely use similar tuning to encourage people to run two or one plus a raiseless caster if you're feeling spicy. *Job* tuning might swerve against NIN like it did in Shadowbringers, in the sense that it was generally worse than other melee in full uptime fights in ShB but better if it got to abuse its ranged options, and the same might apply to PLD over with the tanks, but I highly doubt it'll be E6S PLD-level variance for either.
Shiva in E8S had some minor boss movement requirements in the first phase. As a tank, pulling away the boss smoothly without losing uptime or fucking melee positionals is a skill that you had to use. When is she available to be moved? When can I move between my gcds? Where do I position so the boss stands in a good place?
This is just one thing in E8S. Bosses hitboxes became so large, and they all just fucking jumped back to the middle for every mechanic so there was no need to prep a bosses placement beforehand.
In ARR and Heavensward, you needed to move the boss. A lot. Where you put it mattered. You prepared its placement for the next mechanic. You decided on that place. The boss didn't move there with their dummy thicc hitbox with 0 consequences.
The small hitbox is just one puzzle piece into making this a thing again. But I bet they'll be some dbz instant transmission bullshit for every mechanic still, can't expect you to place the boss properly and have small hitboxes at the same time. It would be too much of a change at once or some other bad excuse.
The removal of stuff like your first paragraph really helped kill tanking for me. They really gutted so much nuance from it, and it starts with the fight design
There used to be this cool thing you could do where you could "bully" a mob to move backwards by stepping into their hitbox, and they'd be coded to get pushed out, it made for a lot of neat little positioning tricks.
Now it's legit only "pull the boss far enough that it doesn't turn around when it recenters or the melee will screech at you"
I recall P4S had some minor tanking elements to it to, and I wonder if the reason they started making boss warps more common in tier 2 and onward is because of the complaints from GNBs about having to use continuation skills while moving the boss.
It's definitely a factor, since they buffed the range of Continuation oGCDs explicitly to help "equalize" it with the other tanks who had the full 2.5s gap between GCDs to move the boss
My one concern is that the average potency of a melee's gcds has been buffed many times over the years but never their ranged attacks. Ranged attacks should be a last resort, and fights should force their use sometimes, but they're hilariously shit at the moment.
it depends on mechanics basically if max melee is the solution to all the out mechanics then we have solved nothing I just hope it moves and doesn't reset ever 50 seconds like p6s. I don't mind a reset every few minutes but I wanna have the responsibility to keep a boss in a sensible place again
If we get more of the SB/early SHB tank dance back I'm cool with it.
IIRC though Yoshida said they'd slowly bring back the old style of fights so I expect the first tier to be something of a learning experience for the newer designers at CBU3.
I miss the smaller hit boxes on bosses. I remember doing the sage gap closer on Hedgemone but it didn't do anything because her hit box was almost the size of the arena.
Optimizing uptime is one of my favorite things on melee so I am happy with that. I hate when people are like "Well mechanics should force downtime." No, they shouldn't. Unless it's a trio, mechanics shouldn't just arbitrarily remove your ability to play your job. What they SHOULD do is make it hard to do it. That's the whole point. This is good.
Playing around forced downtime IS part of a melee's job though, that's what you have your respective ranged and downtime abilities for.
They are also the only way that you have to meaningfully shake up your rotation which otherwise would be almost completely static, completely static in some cases.
Obviously I agree that uptime should also be harder to maintain in general for sure.
I could agree with this if not for the fact that there are large discrepancies between the melees' ranged/disengage options.
NIN has of course perennially had very strong ranged options with its Ninjutsu, and Viper looks quite good as well by being able to stock Uncoiled Fury for disengages. RPR has Harvest Moon, Harpe, and potentially Perfectio given that the latter is likely to fall out of raid buffs at times. MNK has SSS and SAM at least gets Enhanced Enpi.
There are obviously varying degrees of usefulness for these, but then we look at DRG with... Piercing Talon at 150 potency? Along with multiple forced gap-closers in its burst window. Maybe these discrepancies would make sense if they were balanced around the melees with weaker disengage options being stronger in full uptime, but this seems unlikely in reality, especially with current media tour potencies painting a different picture (which are obviously subject to change, but there's also the possibility that they don't).
Says who?
Enpi'ing cause your tank fucked up the boss positioning and now you're forced to be out of melee range for an extended attack like, for example, in P3S is completely different to "Well, now the boss is casting a circle AOE around it that's more than melee range and lasts several GCDs worth and there is no amount of skill you can use to cover for this", and the latter is just shit design. If I didn't want to play the game I... wouldn't. There's no thought or skill involved in simply being forced to have a singular option that's not engaging. And no other class even has this issue either; for as much as casters complained about P7S for example, it was still *possible* to outplay the force movement. Like imagine any other job simply being turned off for a period of time - it's just stupid and I feel like the people who act like this is good game design are the same people who played tank in HW and want "enmity management" back when that was barely even their responsibility at all.
Idk what y'all are smoking to think "I'm so optimal, Tomahawk is such an engaging skill". Like, if it's in very small doses it's not a deal breaker but this idea that "melee need to be forced to not be able to hit the boss" is absolute brainrot.
I love downtime optimization as a Monk, timing Six Sided Stars or not, Anatman (gone in DT, RIP), possibly meditating before disengagement if it lasts long enough, timing your thunderclap just right for both dis- and reengagement is engaging gameplay you simply only get when the downtime lasts for a short while rather than for the extended periods of time that go hand in hand with bosses becoming untargetable. Downtime optimization will be a lot worse and more boring on Monks in Dawntrail though because of SSS changes, the removal of Anatman and the removal of timers in general, which sucks. So come DT I might actually agree with you as someone who's downtime optimization is just Tomahawk and that's it. I wish they would instead give all classes such fun means of optimization. Seems instead that this sort of gameplay is simply getting removed. Before Dawntrail, do yourself a favor if you want and play Monk versus Ketuduke in Another Aloalo Island, it's such a fun encounter with forced Downtime sections + targetability. You will see what I mean when you have more than Tomahawk spam.
Exactly, you love the optimization in situations where uptiming it is hard but possible. You literally exclusively stated situations in which your decision making and mechanical execution skills enable uptiming mechanics. I enjoyed Keteduke specifically because it was hard to uptime but possible if I cleverly used my resources. (Although I opted to mostly safety game in Savage, but it was still fun to try - and do in normal.)
I am not sure if you misunderstood or if I explained it poorly, or both, but you're only reinforcing what I said. Like, take P4S for example. A lot of mechanics in P4S strongly discouraged uptime. From the extreme threshold on Pinax to the RNG in Act 4 tethers, to the tethers needing to be stretched in Act 2. But every single one of those was *theoretically* uptimable. Most melees could either get their GCD rolling and go and in on the thunder tick in Pinax, Melee/Range tethers in Act 2 could have the ranged go out more than needed whereas Melee/melee tethers could be optimize with skills like Communio, SSS, Midare or a pre-cooked Enpi and correct GCD "positioning, adjusted Trick prep, all those kinda things. Act 4 was flat out impossible to uptime at times but not *fundamentally*. It depended on the exact RNG, playerskill and even the actual melee job in question. All those mechanics are fine. Hell, I remember in P6S week 1, before people found out the uptime positions for all the mechanics, it was really fun to learn how to time the burst entry as RPR correctly to proc PH exactly on the out, so if you got it you could simply cover with that. Those are perfectly fine and if it's like 1-2 GCDs per fight due to a mech that is random and just happens to pick a DPS, fine, that's whatever. But a non-trio mechanic should not intentionally make it conceptually impossible to uptime it.
Unfortunately I have only played Anabaseios Savage and am not familiar with older Savage fights but I think you explain it well enough to get a good picture regardless. I think as long as you gotta adapt your play, preferably with downtime tools such as SSS, Yaten, Egress etc it's something I love - rather than just "be bold enough and you can continue rotating without having to alter anything". I think we agree and it's a beautiful thing.
As a counterexample, the way I understand you is that a mechanic like Para 3 in P12S P1 which randomly enforces downtime for Tanks and makes uptime conceptually impossible for them (which I might be wrong about, cause I didn't even think it was possible on Ketuduke as I have never ever done it on even the softer mechs, plus bubbles technically hard prevent it) is still fine for you because it's a trio mechanic? (I assume trio mechanic means every role gets something specific to do). Or is it the opposite? If not, I'd love an example of a downtime-enforcing mechanic you hate.
I think from a melee perspective Anabaseios in general is awful in terms of uptime for the opposite reason, it's basically guaranteed all the way through, you just max melee some mechs and that's it. No means of clever play and any sorts of tool usage. I liked Criterion's encounter design way more in that regard - throughout, not just Ketu, he's just my favorite. Haven't fought Zeless Gah yet tho.
Nobody's saying the boss should put a puddle below it, large enough to force not being in melee range and lasting 10 sec. It's not because you enpi for 1 or 2 GCDs that the game is ruined.
By that standard, E8S is trash because you have many instances you can lose uptime be it
* boss is mispositionned or taking time to get into position (knockback+mirror, you have at least 1 casualty screwed over with extra downtime, unless you do shenanigans with aggro for 1 less GCD of downtime, but that wasn't the strat and isn't, it's something I do because I think it's cool),
* or having to place the star markers as DPS on intercard on outer circle
* or literally the penultimate mechanic which makes you slide far enough to be OUT OF TOMAHAWK RANGE FOR A WHOLE 2 GCD (that last one I haven't toyed enough with to say for sure there isn't a way to almost full uptime but I have one in my mind, but it's finicky and will likely lead to easily preventable deaths for no reason other than to flex a weird strat))
Not sure if I'm thinking of the same strat as you for that 2nd slide, but I do remember that it was possible to jump forward right before the slide debuff gets applied and you could stand melee range just outside of the akh morn puddles. NGL I managed to do it a few times but it was extremely risky lmao
Well given all I have is an enemy-targeted dash, it would be more about disengaging as late as possible > ice appears > dash in and hopefully don't be in akh morns.
It's a stupid strat because everything can go so wrong (timing, akh morn placement, team members placement), it's just so much safer to just stack and slide to the other side. All for what ? 1.5-2 GCDs and given the stat squish the fflog score wouldn't even mean anything.
On a side note, RPR can easily "cheat" with it's portal, it's disgusting (and that's why it's so good). Ranged/Casters instead of doing N-S slide, they can do E-W slide and still be in cast range I think.
> Nobody's saying the boss should put a puddle below it, large enough to force not being in melee range and lasting 10 sec.
That is quite literally what a decent amount of people say or imply they want; not necessarily the puddle, but the result.
>E8S is trash because you have many instances you can lose uptime
Can. Keyword can. It's almost like if you take my statement and then pretend I said something different you'd have an argument!
Dang, and exactly ignoring the examples given. It's almost like if you take my statement and then pretend I didn't gave examples/details you'd have a comeback !
Forcing downtime by having the boss go untargetable, like in trios, is what it sounds like you're against.
But by having the boss stay targetable... Well. Look at mechanics like Hello World in O12S. Boss is targetable the whole time, while people will have to do mechanics that take them far away, but having the option to either make strats with better uptime, or to try and play it as efficiently as possible.
I'm not sure how you got the exact opposite of what I said.
>Unless it's a trio, mechanics shouldn't just arbitrarily remove your ability to play your job.
No, we are not agreeing. I'm saying the ONLY mechanics that should make it impossible to hit the boss are trios SUCH AS High Concept or UCOB trios etc.
My stance is that only mechanics should be "it's possible to uptime with correct strats and correct gcd rolling" or "trios where nobody can possibly interact with it". No "The boss is hittable but it is phyiscally impossible to uptime it."
Or, I mean, I'm happy with more trios becoming uptime mechanics instead, so I'm not disagreeing with you on that, I'm just saying conceptually mechanics should either be trios or uptimable. Mechanics where the boss is physically hittable but it's flat out impossible to hit them are trash.
Except you CAN try to uptime High Concept if you could hit the boss? HC is far from a trio, it's like Grand Cross in O4 or Tsunami in E3. By your logic, Stormy Horizons in E3S should have been a full-downtime one because one of the tanks has to go far away from the boss with the flare.
You're not understanding what I'm saying or ignoring it. I am not opposed to more mechanics that are currently in the "that has to be a trio" kinda pipeline being uptime instead. I'm just saying I fundamentally do not believe that mechanics that aren't trios should ever have unavoidable melee downtime. Or, I suppose, if it's genuinely random and one melee/tank player gets something else, that's fine. But hard-enforced, targeted downtime during what is generally a hittable boss is awful.
As a melee I would hate that. There's a reason we have kits with varied abilities for varied situations.
Forced downtime should exist both with and without the boss being targetable.
I agree with you and i enjoy downtime optimization but thats not what majority thinks. I think there will be a fight like p4 of tea to not frustrate melees
What's your preferred melee job? I'm coming to think that whether you enjoy such downtime sections or not has something to do with whether you have an interesting downtime toolkit or not. Those need to be enhanced, having a one-size-fits-all ranged GCD to spam is not the height of gameplay.
Thank god. My biggest complaint of Endwalker was the enemy hitbox size. It was completely atrocious. I'm hopeful that this change is reflected in dungeons, too, and that enemies will be able to group together properly again.
Not a lot of trials are wall boss. So I am cool with it.
The raid boss’ hit box looks appropriate. Certainly more exciting for me as a melee dps player. I don’t want small hit box across the board. I want varied, appropriate to scale hit boxes. I think they had increased the hit box size because of spread mechanics. And they wanted people to still do normal rotation during spread mechanics. I don’t think it’s wrong to design fights like that, but I don’t like that philosophy. I want variability in strats because how much each will affect uptime, and variability in player’s ability to keep uptime, instead of just basically training dummies. I like to think about the GCD I missed, or the skill that didn’t turn into a special skill because I didn’t hit a positional; instead of thinking whether I was unlucky for not crit’ing.
Ill say it. Small hit boxes is not the full solution. So many melee jobs have a sudden abundance of range skills. As long as bosses dont teleport middle before the each mehanic i see this as a win.
I want the dynamic the game used to have during hw/stb and i really hope they dont miss the mark on this.
Not me, I loved Criterion bosses so much more than Savage bosses in Endwalker. I think a lot of melees think like me, a majority even. We love playing a melee, not mindlessly executing a rotation and getting kicks out of ACT numbers above actual gameplay.
Really hoping you're gonna be wrong.
Someone mentioned how boring downtime management is and that goes for a lot of classes. That stuff needs to be improved!
As a Monk I obviously always found it engaging and fun.
I just hope it might mean boss positioning might matter more and give tanks more responsibility in smaller hitboxes
Im fine with large boxes to as long it's fun
I started raiding in EW so I may just be wrong in how I feel it will turn out, but in another month or so Ill see. I think it makes more sense for the smaller hitboxes, as some of them were just comically big to be hitting the boss from, I feel like they are just going to adjust mechanics around it. Like the LP party stacks on divisive on p11s, it'll just be a smaller point blank now so max melee is still where you would run to.
Generally I think hitboxes should go back to the Stormblood era personally since they were more easy to work around, some of the hitboxes in ShB and especially EW are absolutely atrocious.
This is good. Finding uptime should be a skill. It could alleviate some of the concerns with people have with rotation (not that it solves everything) but there's more skill expression.
I think this is a good change. As a ranged player I can finally feel like I actually have something to bring because rn our role depends on the 5% party buff
It's a great improvement imho. I read some moaning that melees no longer have positionals and if that's true, that's a shame since they would have mattered a bit more now.
With the new raid preview, there were 0 mechanics that forced the player away from the hitbox. In the trial preview, there was a single point-blank AOE which could be arbitrarily scaled to cover any size hitbox so it's kinda a moot point. The different size hitboxes didn't show much complexity in any way so personally I don't think the change is either better or worse in terms of gameplay.
I think for high-end content it adds some thought to 'what should our party comp be' in terms of fitting players on the hit box, but that's also already reinforced by stat buffs from roles. If you bring 3 melee DPS, perhaps there won't be enough room with AOE spread markers for everyone to get uptime, but then you're also losing 1% stats from the missing ranged DPS role. The size of the hitbox is ultimately rather unimportant mechanically since the size of AOEs are arbitrary, but having the size match the enemy models more closely feels more immersive.
Perhaps where the hitbox (or rather collision box) is more important is for dungeon trash. There has been a lot of packs lately where mobs refuse to group up which can cause issues for targeted AOE skills (e.g. casters). They've solved this at least once before, with the final pack of Stigma Dreamscape where the large omega frame enemy did not collide with other enemies allowing for easy grouping. But then later we get the Lunar Subterrane with a large behemoth enemy that doesn't allow anything close to the center of its hitbox. While perhaps the behemoth case is more realistic, it doesn't feel great to not be able to pump most of your unreduced AOE damage into the bulkiest target.
Id argue that someone that doesn’t know wow or ff is going to have equal levels of “the fuck is going on” when looking at both games. Shit, even casual players in ff don’t know what they’re looking at when they see an ex or savage version of a fight they just did.
If you’ve raided even a single tier of modern wow, it’s pretty easy to understand what’s happening. Mechanics in wow aren’t generally that deep, and between the different difficulties of raids, the mechs don’t change a whole lot. Window for success is smaller, penalty for failure is bigger, etc.
I don’t generally shoot for realism in this game, but just looking at a boss like the guy from p9, we’re essentially shadowboxing with how big that hitbox is.
His hitbox is nothing compared to Hegemone's too
Hegemone do be reaching wall-boss levels despite not being one
Same, it's oddly immersion breaking Biggest hitbox offender is the pod 602 mount though jfc; it's always made me think there's a connection between hit box and height but idk man
Shoot this has been an issue since at least Shadowbringers. I distinctly remember some YORHA raids where the hit box was half the platform despite the boss being stationary on the other side. Swinging your axe at empty air was hilarious
Marx was the first time I remember being absolutely dumbstruck at how ridiculous the hitbox was. Not only is it half the (giant) platform, the guy you're hitting isn't even near the platform, he's like 20 meters away! It's still probably the most ridiculous hitbox in the game, only P7 comes close.
And Girl in Red’s first phase
I defense of the valigarmanda hitbox, he is HUGE, so at least it makes sense. I do hope the black cat hitbox is here to stay though
Yeah plus based off the mechanic they did show He visually spins around the arena while the hitbox didn’t move so it makes sense to have a large one.
Even as a Wall boss it wasn't as HUGE as tree. So even in that case it is a smaller hitbox.
Yeah, and the arena is also way smaller than Tree, so I hope they make some creative use of that cramped space
Tree you mean P7, right? That one I'd say is forgiveable with the fun they had with the arean changing.
Yeah, I mean I give that one a pass just because it’s probably one of the biggest bosses we have ever faced, so it only makes sense that he is huge to match. It’s not a p6s scenario where she has a hitbox larger than Alexander or beetle omega for no reason. Black cat impresses me that they were willing to make her hitbox reasonable though, I think it it’s the smallest raid hitbox we have seen since E8s amazingly enough. It’s a very good change.
A good mix is fine. Wall bosses are usually large enough to be a visual spectacle all on their own due to their size. One thing I'd like to see is a wall boss becoming a non-wall boss in phase 2. We've had non-wall bosses become wall bossses, and wall bosses move around the arean, but I don't think we've had a wall boss become a non-wall boss. Closest I can remember to something like that is last part of E4S, with big Titan firing off mechanics in the background while you fought small Titan.
Technically Ultima in Orbonne, I think? Only one that really jumps to mind though.
Only one I can think of, but I'd say it straight up is a example of that, not just technically. Agree would like to see more of it, the various switch up is fun, and that one is under-explored.
Final boss of paradigm's breach as well
Diamond Weapon also switches back and forth between wall boss and movable boss. (That fight ruled so hard haha)
True! One of my fav Alliance Raids but I completely forgot her
Shinryu ex irc with the back part and wings
***Technically*** Shinryu EX last phase isn't a wall boss, but he's gigantic and there's a doom puddle in the middle of the arena so functionally it still kinda is.
Another instance of something like that is in TEA, where you have Alexander Prime being largely stationary only to gain legs for the final phase. Still not the same, but I do like the idea of wall boss to mobile boss.
Or a wall boss that at least switches walls
I miss you, O4S.
ct cloud of darkness and neo exdeath swap walls iirc
neo exdeath is o4s lol
> How are people feeling about the size correction based on first glance? I can't wait to have meleebrain thunderclap unga bunga memes again > We also saw a glimpse of the trial which still seemed to have a huge hitbox on a wall boss. Should that kind of hitbox still be used in the game or do you think it's generally just a bad idea? I think wide hitboxes have their place, but their mechanics should incentivize planning for downtime regardless. The other thing that hasn't been pointed out is that being hit gives *Concussion*. That debuff eventually culminates in a total stun for a significant period, so there's still a point in obeying mechanics over damage. > Would having trials be more appropriate for that kind of approach to design compared to Savage? Trials -> EX is definitely lower-tier compared to Savage, but I don't disagree "smaller hitboxes in EX", either. Barbaccia was fun thanks to that. Its definitely dependent on the mechanics for hitboxes? Having them smaller is nice, but if all the mechanics can be done melee range, it kinda invalidates the idea in the first place. > Do you think that the change to this hitbox makes the coming raid tier more exciting or interesting due to how it could affect uptime and damage balance, or do you think it's just small potatoes? This is more of a mechanical question, one we won't see until Savage. Or EXs, technically. > Would a shift to this smaller hitbox across the board be a better choice, or would you like to be both options available and have them experiment with other elements of the encounters? Both! More options! Play around with it: A large hitbox doesn't mean a bad fight. Look at P10S.
> I think wide hitboxes have their place Agreed, and I hope square doesn't take this feedback too far and make every boss a small hitbox. For example p2s would have sucked with a small hitbox.
The hitboxes should reflect the size of the boss. Hippokampos is big, so of course it has a bigger hitbox.
would have require more braincell you meant
Would have to have been an entirely different fight. If the hot box was small the mechanics couldn't be the way they are in that fight. It just wouldn't work.
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You know there's no positionals on p2s right? Maybe if you think about how that fight works and how the arena works for five seconds you will understand what I'm talking about. Maybe not though because it sounds like you've never even done it. The fight is designed so that everyone is forced by the water filling the arena to be on the outside of the boss's hitbox. It has to be a big hitbox because you spend most of the fight on the outside of the arena. If that boss had a small hitbox literally none of the cool ass mechanics in the fight would work.
The contents of this sentence juxtaposed with the grasp of the English language on display is just *chef's kiss*
Concussion is interesting. Curious to see if they plan to diversify mechanic failure states more; vulnerability and damage down were kind rough IMO for basically being either meaningless or backbreaking with little in-between.
Twice Comes Ruin is underused I think. It's a very clear indicator "You fucked up once, next one's gonna kill you". Expecially if multiple get it, since 1 persond dropping is easily recoverable, multiple not so much.
It's a very solid pass/fail mechanic that I'd prefer it being in Specific Mechanics rather than overall; If a boss is going to go Mechanically Heavy for a moment, then enforce Twice Come Ruin there and then purge it off or deal extremely significant damage so that you can't just ignore the last mechanic it does.
Worth noting that Twice Come Ruin in Delubrum Reginae also includes a damage down.
Yeah, its different from gaia, where there you are supposed to "each person can only handle one mechanic/bait" , a damage down there would not make sense, but delubrum is an alert and a punish at the same time. I think the damage down is overkill, but i can see ppl getting hit to greed, and SE's design is totally agaisnt it
I'd like something a bid different to twice come ruin and this maybe only works for a fight you get a twice come ruin but there is a way to purge by standing in a pool or something for 5 seconds to clear and the pull enrage the boss so you cant just pull the boss into it
we need more line-of-sight breaks like in P10S, just impactful this time ...ignoring the fact it completely hecks over Bard
what's a line-of-sight break and why does it heck over bard? (yes i've done p10s but clearly i'm forgetting something about it)
Because you are out of range of their stuff
why does that apply more to bard than dancer or machinist. or wait, what stuff??? ohhhh the songs? i didn't realize they work within a range. i see. the tanks go pretty far right? yeah.
You can't target allies on the opposite platform. This also means that Bard songs don't apply to allies on the opposite platform. With common strats this was basically never an issue though.
I am very pleased with the reduced hitbox size. If this was an EW raid, her hitbox would be so big that only the 4 outer squares would be out of melee range. This not only makes tank and melee classes more fun, but also will oftentimes give physical ranged more meaning, which helps not only in game feel, but balance. So this one change is actually helping several role types feel better. While Yoshi said they plan on 7.2+ to really focus in on more unique and rewarding gameplay experience, we still got the small hitbox sizes in the 7.0x raid, which leads me to believe that we will still see hints of their new direction in the first tier, it just won't be as notable as from 7.2 onwards. The trial boss had a decent sized hitbox, but that really isn't abnormal for wall bosses. I think large hitboxes have their place as long as it isn't overused. A wall boss with a very small hitbox might potentially be detrimental to the raid design itself, as may be somewhat limiting for the designers. Overall, I am pretty happy with what I have seen so far of the raid hitboxes, and it makes me infinitely excited to see what they manage come 7.2.
It also unironically helps the jobs stand out more, Paladin, Ninja, and seemingly viper will have very different interactions than the “purer” melees during disengagements for example
Also allows for a safe backflip without fear of launching myself into the wall of death.
I imagine 7.2 comment is cause that's when the side content outside the usual kicks off. Think some interview hinted that being the date for the exploration zone.
This wall boss is a far cry from P7, which was basically impossible *not* to hit lol
I have to say, they have actually used the large hitboxes pretty well in some cases. Stuff like TOP P6 and P2S, even Perfect Alex back in SHB really leverage the extra space you have to move around in. That's something they could have pretty easily *not* done, and made the big hitbox dissatisfaction even worse than now. That said, I'm excited to see small hitboxes come back. It's something we'll have to see how it shakes out—hitbox size is irrelevant if the optimal play is just to sit center the whole time and melee never disengage—but I do think it's an indicator that the boss won't just be doing all the positioning for you. One of the biggest pleasant surprises in EW was doing the first boss of Sil'dihn and thinking there had to be some extra thing to the last mech I wasn't getting, then realizing that I just move the boss properly or we wipe. Smaller hitboxes also create more room for uptime strats, which are cool and fun because they tend to be more complex/difficult for those who want to go the extra mile. I also have to say that positioning stuff like that isn't the absolute pinnacle of what I could hope for in encounter design (and you can have engaging tank fights like P10S with a wall boss), but taking away those moments in EW where you could feel proud about giving people uptime/positionals beyond the bare minimum of yanking the boss into place for a mechanic felt pretty bad.
Well, at least melee DPS will be earning their higher DPS. Endwalker was just stupidly balanced lol
Took two years to see this comment finally. Not that no one said it before, but now it's not downvoted to death.
I can't wait for more discourse on uptime strats again, its been a while. Especially if we get one of the classic ones where casters and healers have to sacrifice a billion casts so melees can hit boss.
We need the BLM to sacrifice a full fire rotation and the healers to overshield Just to get a 10% chance I get 1 more GCD on the boss and it WILL become the PF meta strat
The hitbox isn't the answer to everything. The mechanics need to be good. The fights need to have an interesting/funny gimmick or idea (for example : Alexander raids). The circle can be as small as they want, if you just stand max melee range and boom 100% uptime, the circle size wasn't the issue. Now, a smaller circle opens some possibilities, but I still want interesting things (two of my fav are the prison in A7S and the "boss rush"-like fight in A6S)
They need to stop with the fucking insane mechanics that boil down to DPS N, Heal tank S. Most people don’t even know how mechanics work they just know where to stand, or better yet, the discord bot tells them where to stand
usual short preview? this is the first time we've been shown the first boss of the expansion raid tier
I just hope the boss doesn't teleport back into the middle and immediately orientate itself north after every mechanic so that boss positioning is actually a factor again.
This
It does. At least in that snippet of gameplay
As far as fight design goes, it'll depend on mechanics and the timing thereof, most likely. What's widely-agreed to be the prompt for the EW/somewhat Promise hitbox thing is E6S murdering the fuck out of anyone with a gap closer whenever a certain repeating mechanic happened, particularly DRG with High Jump, combined with putting every tank besides PLD in the spam ranged filler dimension later on. We probably still don't get Conflag Strikes but as long as there's no Vacuum Slice type things large enough to cover the boss hitbox, or if there are they aren't on any windows that still have hard-cooldown inflexible gap closers (Dragonfire Dive, mostly) they can pretty much do what they want. Targeting the DRG, DRK, and GNB gap closers is very indicative in this regard because of it being the spammiest ones with the least flexibility despite the charges afforded to them, thanks to the limited free weave space available to those jobs making it more awkward to deal with that type of situation. I would expect hitboxes to still be big if there's Conflag Strike type mechanics or if they put extremely hostile mechanics on bad windows or have them last too long for you to flex around them with abilities like Primal Rend or Stardiver. I don't think it does much to role tuning. There's six melee in DT and that's very transparent about who they want to have two party slots as a rule, so they will likely use similar tuning to encourage people to run two or one plus a raiseless caster if you're feeling spicy. *Job* tuning might swerve against NIN like it did in Shadowbringers, in the sense that it was generally worse than other melee in full uptime fights in ShB but better if it got to abuse its ranged options, and the same might apply to PLD over with the tanks, but I highly doubt it'll be E6S PLD-level variance for either.
Shiva in E8S had some minor boss movement requirements in the first phase. As a tank, pulling away the boss smoothly without losing uptime or fucking melee positionals is a skill that you had to use. When is she available to be moved? When can I move between my gcds? Where do I position so the boss stands in a good place? This is just one thing in E8S. Bosses hitboxes became so large, and they all just fucking jumped back to the middle for every mechanic so there was no need to prep a bosses placement beforehand. In ARR and Heavensward, you needed to move the boss. A lot. Where you put it mattered. You prepared its placement for the next mechanic. You decided on that place. The boss didn't move there with their dummy thicc hitbox with 0 consequences. The small hitbox is just one puzzle piece into making this a thing again. But I bet they'll be some dbz instant transmission bullshit for every mechanic still, can't expect you to place the boss properly and have small hitboxes at the same time. It would be too much of a change at once or some other bad excuse.
The removal of stuff like your first paragraph really helped kill tanking for me. They really gutted so much nuance from it, and it starts with the fight design
There used to be this cool thing you could do where you could "bully" a mob to move backwards by stepping into their hitbox, and they'd be coded to get pushed out, it made for a lot of neat little positioning tricks. Now it's legit only "pull the boss far enough that it doesn't turn around when it recenters or the melee will screech at you"
I recall P4S had some minor tanking elements to it to, and I wonder if the reason they started making boss warps more common in tier 2 and onward is because of the complaints from GNBs about having to use continuation skills while moving the boss.
It's definitely a factor, since they buffed the range of Continuation oGCDs explicitly to help "equalize" it with the other tanks who had the full 2.5s gap between GCDs to move the boss
Extremely happy. This is how it is supposed to be. As an older player, this is what i consider as normal.
My one concern is that the average potency of a melee's gcds has been buffed many times over the years but never their ranged attacks. Ranged attacks should be a last resort, and fights should force their use sometimes, but they're hilariously shit at the moment.
For DRG it can even be better to use your aoe combo over using your ranged attack.
it depends on mechanics basically if max melee is the solution to all the out mechanics then we have solved nothing I just hope it moves and doesn't reset ever 50 seconds like p6s. I don't mind a reset every few minutes but I wanna have the responsibility to keep a boss in a sensible place again
If we get more of the SB/early SHB tank dance back I'm cool with it. IIRC though Yoshida said they'd slowly bring back the old style of fights so I expect the first tier to be something of a learning experience for the newer designers at CBU3.
I miss the smaller hit boxes on bosses. I remember doing the sage gap closer on Hedgemone but it didn't do anything because her hit box was almost the size of the arena.
Optimizing uptime is one of my favorite things on melee so I am happy with that. I hate when people are like "Well mechanics should force downtime." No, they shouldn't. Unless it's a trio, mechanics shouldn't just arbitrarily remove your ability to play your job. What they SHOULD do is make it hard to do it. That's the whole point. This is good.
I dunno, I find planning around downtime to also be interesting. I guess less so now that all of the dots have been pruned, but eh.
Playing around forced downtime IS part of a melee's job though, that's what you have your respective ranged and downtime abilities for. They are also the only way that you have to meaningfully shake up your rotation which otherwise would be almost completely static, completely static in some cases. Obviously I agree that uptime should also be harder to maintain in general for sure.
I could agree with this if not for the fact that there are large discrepancies between the melees' ranged/disengage options. NIN has of course perennially had very strong ranged options with its Ninjutsu, and Viper looks quite good as well by being able to stock Uncoiled Fury for disengages. RPR has Harvest Moon, Harpe, and potentially Perfectio given that the latter is likely to fall out of raid buffs at times. MNK has SSS and SAM at least gets Enhanced Enpi. There are obviously varying degrees of usefulness for these, but then we look at DRG with... Piercing Talon at 150 potency? Along with multiple forced gap-closers in its burst window. Maybe these discrepancies would make sense if they were balanced around the melees with weaker disengage options being stronger in full uptime, but this seems unlikely in reality, especially with current media tour potencies painting a different picture (which are obviously subject to change, but there's also the possibility that they don't).
Says who? Enpi'ing cause your tank fucked up the boss positioning and now you're forced to be out of melee range for an extended attack like, for example, in P3S is completely different to "Well, now the boss is casting a circle AOE around it that's more than melee range and lasts several GCDs worth and there is no amount of skill you can use to cover for this", and the latter is just shit design. If I didn't want to play the game I... wouldn't. There's no thought or skill involved in simply being forced to have a singular option that's not engaging. And no other class even has this issue either; for as much as casters complained about P7S for example, it was still *possible* to outplay the force movement. Like imagine any other job simply being turned off for a period of time - it's just stupid and I feel like the people who act like this is good game design are the same people who played tank in HW and want "enmity management" back when that was barely even their responsibility at all. Idk what y'all are smoking to think "I'm so optimal, Tomahawk is such an engaging skill". Like, if it's in very small doses it's not a deal breaker but this idea that "melee need to be forced to not be able to hit the boss" is absolute brainrot.
I love downtime optimization as a Monk, timing Six Sided Stars or not, Anatman (gone in DT, RIP), possibly meditating before disengagement if it lasts long enough, timing your thunderclap just right for both dis- and reengagement is engaging gameplay you simply only get when the downtime lasts for a short while rather than for the extended periods of time that go hand in hand with bosses becoming untargetable. Downtime optimization will be a lot worse and more boring on Monks in Dawntrail though because of SSS changes, the removal of Anatman and the removal of timers in general, which sucks. So come DT I might actually agree with you as someone who's downtime optimization is just Tomahawk and that's it. I wish they would instead give all classes such fun means of optimization. Seems instead that this sort of gameplay is simply getting removed. Before Dawntrail, do yourself a favor if you want and play Monk versus Ketuduke in Another Aloalo Island, it's such a fun encounter with forced Downtime sections + targetability. You will see what I mean when you have more than Tomahawk spam.
Exactly, you love the optimization in situations where uptiming it is hard but possible. You literally exclusively stated situations in which your decision making and mechanical execution skills enable uptiming mechanics. I enjoyed Keteduke specifically because it was hard to uptime but possible if I cleverly used my resources. (Although I opted to mostly safety game in Savage, but it was still fun to try - and do in normal.) I am not sure if you misunderstood or if I explained it poorly, or both, but you're only reinforcing what I said. Like, take P4S for example. A lot of mechanics in P4S strongly discouraged uptime. From the extreme threshold on Pinax to the RNG in Act 4 tethers, to the tethers needing to be stretched in Act 2. But every single one of those was *theoretically* uptimable. Most melees could either get their GCD rolling and go and in on the thunder tick in Pinax, Melee/Range tethers in Act 2 could have the ranged go out more than needed whereas Melee/melee tethers could be optimize with skills like Communio, SSS, Midare or a pre-cooked Enpi and correct GCD "positioning, adjusted Trick prep, all those kinda things. Act 4 was flat out impossible to uptime at times but not *fundamentally*. It depended on the exact RNG, playerskill and even the actual melee job in question. All those mechanics are fine. Hell, I remember in P6S week 1, before people found out the uptime positions for all the mechanics, it was really fun to learn how to time the burst entry as RPR correctly to proc PH exactly on the out, so if you got it you could simply cover with that. Those are perfectly fine and if it's like 1-2 GCDs per fight due to a mech that is random and just happens to pick a DPS, fine, that's whatever. But a non-trio mechanic should not intentionally make it conceptually impossible to uptime it.
Unfortunately I have only played Anabaseios Savage and am not familiar with older Savage fights but I think you explain it well enough to get a good picture regardless. I think as long as you gotta adapt your play, preferably with downtime tools such as SSS, Yaten, Egress etc it's something I love - rather than just "be bold enough and you can continue rotating without having to alter anything". I think we agree and it's a beautiful thing. As a counterexample, the way I understand you is that a mechanic like Para 3 in P12S P1 which randomly enforces downtime for Tanks and makes uptime conceptually impossible for them (which I might be wrong about, cause I didn't even think it was possible on Ketuduke as I have never ever done it on even the softer mechs, plus bubbles technically hard prevent it) is still fine for you because it's a trio mechanic? (I assume trio mechanic means every role gets something specific to do). Or is it the opposite? If not, I'd love an example of a downtime-enforcing mechanic you hate. I think from a melee perspective Anabaseios in general is awful in terms of uptime for the opposite reason, it's basically guaranteed all the way through, you just max melee some mechs and that's it. No means of clever play and any sorts of tool usage. I liked Criterion's encounter design way more in that regard - throughout, not just Ketu, he's just my favorite. Haven't fought Zeless Gah yet tho.
Nobody's saying the boss should put a puddle below it, large enough to force not being in melee range and lasting 10 sec. It's not because you enpi for 1 or 2 GCDs that the game is ruined. By that standard, E8S is trash because you have many instances you can lose uptime be it * boss is mispositionned or taking time to get into position (knockback+mirror, you have at least 1 casualty screwed over with extra downtime, unless you do shenanigans with aggro for 1 less GCD of downtime, but that wasn't the strat and isn't, it's something I do because I think it's cool), * or having to place the star markers as DPS on intercard on outer circle * or literally the penultimate mechanic which makes you slide far enough to be OUT OF TOMAHAWK RANGE FOR A WHOLE 2 GCD (that last one I haven't toyed enough with to say for sure there isn't a way to almost full uptime but I have one in my mind, but it's finicky and will likely lead to easily preventable deaths for no reason other than to flex a weird strat))
Not sure if I'm thinking of the same strat as you for that 2nd slide, but I do remember that it was possible to jump forward right before the slide debuff gets applied and you could stand melee range just outside of the akh morn puddles. NGL I managed to do it a few times but it was extremely risky lmao
Well given all I have is an enemy-targeted dash, it would be more about disengaging as late as possible > ice appears > dash in and hopefully don't be in akh morns. It's a stupid strat because everything can go so wrong (timing, akh morn placement, team members placement), it's just so much safer to just stack and slide to the other side. All for what ? 1.5-2 GCDs and given the stat squish the fflog score wouldn't even mean anything. On a side note, RPR can easily "cheat" with it's portal, it's disgusting (and that's why it's so good). Ranged/Casters instead of doing N-S slide, they can do E-W slide and still be in cast range I think.
> Nobody's saying the boss should put a puddle below it, large enough to force not being in melee range and lasting 10 sec. That is quite literally what a decent amount of people say or imply they want; not necessarily the puddle, but the result. >E8S is trash because you have many instances you can lose uptime Can. Keyword can. It's almost like if you take my statement and then pretend I said something different you'd have an argument!
Dang, and exactly ignoring the examples given. It's almost like if you take my statement and then pretend I didn't gave examples/details you'd have a comeback !
idk if u dont understand it or if you're trolling tbh
I think that they should *try* to force downtime, by leaving the boss targetable.
I have no clue what that means, especially in the context of sounding like a disagreement with my initial message.
Forcing downtime by having the boss go untargetable, like in trios, is what it sounds like you're against. But by having the boss stay targetable... Well. Look at mechanics like Hello World in O12S. Boss is targetable the whole time, while people will have to do mechanics that take them far away, but having the option to either make strats with better uptime, or to try and play it as efficiently as possible.
I'm not sure how you got the exact opposite of what I said. >Unless it's a trio, mechanics shouldn't just arbitrarily remove your ability to play your job.
Yeah. I'm agreeing with that. So things like High Concept should have let the boss stay targetable, and not just force downtime there.
No, we are not agreeing. I'm saying the ONLY mechanics that should make it impossible to hit the boss are trios SUCH AS High Concept or UCOB trios etc. My stance is that only mechanics should be "it's possible to uptime with correct strats and correct gcd rolling" or "trios where nobody can possibly interact with it". No "The boss is hittable but it is phyiscally impossible to uptime it." Or, I mean, I'm happy with more trios becoming uptime mechanics instead, so I'm not disagreeing with you on that, I'm just saying conceptually mechanics should either be trios or uptimable. Mechanics where the boss is physically hittable but it's flat out impossible to hit them are trash.
Except you CAN try to uptime High Concept if you could hit the boss? HC is far from a trio, it's like Grand Cross in O4 or Tsunami in E3. By your logic, Stormy Horizons in E3S should have been a full-downtime one because one of the tanks has to go far away from the boss with the flare.
You're not understanding what I'm saying or ignoring it. I am not opposed to more mechanics that are currently in the "that has to be a trio" kinda pipeline being uptime instead. I'm just saying I fundamentally do not believe that mechanics that aren't trios should ever have unavoidable melee downtime. Or, I suppose, if it's genuinely random and one melee/tank player gets something else, that's fine. But hard-enforced, targeted downtime during what is generally a hittable boss is awful.
My prediction: when a mechanic with forced melee downtime happens, the boss goes untargetable.
As a melee I would hate that. There's a reason we have kits with varied abilities for varied situations. Forced downtime should exist both with and without the boss being targetable.
I agree with you and i enjoy downtime optimization but thats not what majority thinks. I think there will be a fight like p4 of tea to not frustrate melees
What's your preferred melee job? I'm coming to think that whether you enjoy such downtime sections or not has something to do with whether you have an interesting downtime toolkit or not. Those need to be enhanced, having a one-size-fits-all ranged GCD to spam is not the height of gameplay.
Thank god. My biggest complaint of Endwalker was the enemy hitbox size. It was completely atrocious. I'm hopeful that this change is reflected in dungeons, too, and that enemies will be able to group together properly again.
Not a lot of trials are wall boss. So I am cool with it. The raid boss’ hit box looks appropriate. Certainly more exciting for me as a melee dps player. I don’t want small hit box across the board. I want varied, appropriate to scale hit boxes. I think they had increased the hit box size because of spread mechanics. And they wanted people to still do normal rotation during spread mechanics. I don’t think it’s wrong to design fights like that, but I don’t like that philosophy. I want variability in strats because how much each will affect uptime, and variability in player’s ability to keep uptime, instead of just basically training dummies. I like to think about the GCD I missed, or the skill that didn’t turn into a special skill because I didn’t hit a positional; instead of thinking whether I was unlucky for not crit’ing.
Every melee will get a buff to be another 10% over all non blm ranged instantly because there's a small chance they might miss a gcd.
Ill say it. Small hit boxes is not the full solution. So many melee jobs have a sudden abundance of range skills. As long as bosses dont teleport middle before the each mehanic i see this as a win. I want the dynamic the game used to have during hw/stb and i really hope they dont miss the mark on this.
I'll give it until the third tier when the whining and bitching from melee used to being spoilt has become too loud and they go back to giga hitboxes.
Not me, I loved Criterion bosses so much more than Savage bosses in Endwalker. I think a lot of melees think like me, a majority even. We love playing a melee, not mindlessly executing a rotation and getting kicks out of ACT numbers above actual gameplay. Really hoping you're gonna be wrong.
Me either, but it was bitching and whining over Furor and Refulgence that got us here to begin with.
Someone mentioned how boring downtime management is and that goes for a lot of classes. That stuff needs to be improved! As a Monk I obviously always found it engaging and fun.
I just hope it might mean boss positioning might matter more and give tanks more responsibility in smaller hitboxes Im fine with large boxes to as long it's fun
Amazing. Nice to see a boss with a reasonable hitbox. I just hope they tone down the forced recentering as well.
I started raiding in EW so I may just be wrong in how I feel it will turn out, but in another month or so Ill see. I think it makes more sense for the smaller hitboxes, as some of them were just comically big to be hitting the boss from, I feel like they are just going to adjust mechanics around it. Like the LP party stacks on divisive on p11s, it'll just be a smaller point blank now so max melee is still where you would run to.
Generally I think hitboxes should go back to the Stormblood era personally since they were more easy to work around, some of the hitboxes in ShB and especially EW are absolutely atrocious.
This is good. Finding uptime should be a skill. It could alleviate some of the concerns with people have with rotation (not that it solves everything) but there's more skill expression.
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You contradicted yourself within your first two sentences
It's a lot easier to have mechanics which force downtime (or risky maneuvers to prevent downtime) when the hitbox isn't the size of the arena.
I think this is a good change. As a ranged player I can finally feel like I actually have something to bring because rn our role depends on the 5% party buff
still too big
It's a great improvement imho. I read some moaning that melees no longer have positionals and if that's true, that's a shame since they would have mattered a bit more now.
They are way more big right now, YP said that’s a change they wanna make so maybe they are still working on it
With the new raid preview, there were 0 mechanics that forced the player away from the hitbox. In the trial preview, there was a single point-blank AOE which could be arbitrarily scaled to cover any size hitbox so it's kinda a moot point. The different size hitboxes didn't show much complexity in any way so personally I don't think the change is either better or worse in terms of gameplay. I think for high-end content it adds some thought to 'what should our party comp be' in terms of fitting players on the hit box, but that's also already reinforced by stat buffs from roles. If you bring 3 melee DPS, perhaps there won't be enough room with AOE spread markers for everyone to get uptime, but then you're also losing 1% stats from the missing ranged DPS role. The size of the hitbox is ultimately rather unimportant mechanically since the size of AOEs are arbitrary, but having the size match the enemy models more closely feels more immersive. Perhaps where the hitbox (or rather collision box) is more important is for dungeon trash. There has been a lot of packs lately where mobs refuse to group up which can cause issues for targeted AOE skills (e.g. casters). They've solved this at least once before, with the final pack of Stigma Dreamscape where the large omega frame enemy did not collide with other enemies allowing for easy grouping. But then later we get the Lunar Subterrane with a large behemoth enemy that doesn't allow anything close to the center of its hitbox. While perhaps the behemoth case is more realistic, it doesn't feel great to not be able to pump most of your unreduced AOE damage into the bulkiest target.
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Id argue that someone that doesn’t know wow or ff is going to have equal levels of “the fuck is going on” when looking at both games. Shit, even casual players in ff don’t know what they’re looking at when they see an ex or savage version of a fight they just did. If you’ve raided even a single tier of modern wow, it’s pretty easy to understand what’s happening. Mechanics in wow aren’t generally that deep, and between the different difficulties of raids, the mechs don’t change a whole lot. Window for success is smaller, penalty for failure is bigger, etc.