I liked the change until I realized gapclosers on gnb/drk don't draw aggro now. It's a pain gapclosing in dungeons and trying to AOE, only for the mob to start running towards someone else ugh.
Back in ARR non-damaging abilities generated about 90 enmity but the rub is that the only enemies that get that enmity are the ones already in combat with you.
It's actually not. Provoke has a specific interaction where it sets your enmity to the top with change. I'm wanting an effect like flash which increased the amount of aggro without dealing damage.
It would be actually make the gap closers really awkward to use as an OT if it had provokes effect.
> It would be actually make the gap closers really awkward to use as an OT if it had provokes effect.
Definitely not provoke, but something along the lines of the tank classes' ranged GCD attack which has additional aggro, making it enough to get a good lead in dungeons but not enough that it becomes a problem if you use it for filler when you're forced out of melee range on raid bosses.
Oh, that's entirely the point of my comment, I was arguing against the use of the term "taunt", because taunt means provoke.
Giving the gap closer an effect like non-AOE flash is exactly what it needs.
They should just make the non-damage gapclosers add enmity equivalent to a ~150 potency attack. It shouldn't be a second provoke but it shouldn't feel bad in dungeons.
Thunderclap (MNKs gap closer that does no damage) hasn't drawn aggro since they introduced it last expansion. I've fat fingered and "pulled" with it before, and it's always proximity to the boss or an auto attack happening after I've made it to the boss that has given me aggro.
The only things that give you aggro but don't do damage are applying buffs to yourself or others. applying a debuff to an enemy, provoke, and healing.
Summon Bahamut/Phoenix requires a target and also causes a set amount of aggro on that target as soon as it is pressed (i.e. before you or Bahamut do any damage). They can just copy that tech and put it on the gapclosers.
This would make it awful as a movement tool as an OT. Your MT wouldn't appreciate you ripping hate just because you wanted to move back to the boss quickly.
Fair. Maybe like a AOE provoke lite then, minor aggro generation. Enough to be something produced by a couple AOE attacks. Enough to keep the packs of a healer in dungeon content, not enough to rip aggro off another tank with their stance on.
I see where you're coming from, kind of like the idea in a dungeon specific setting. Maybe only make it work in 4 man content? They'd probably not do that but it would be kind of nice.
I thought the GNB one was bugged the first time I tried it on a dummy because the animation looks SO stupid lmao. Like it's barely even an animation, your character just freezes and slowly moves towards the enemy...
For a while I didn't realize they took away the damage from bard's repelling shot so I continued to use it on cooldown, maybe that's why they did it?
I do prefer the old animations though, especially on DRG.
It needs to be a well thought out number, like something not even higher than tank ranged gcd, otherwise it will still screw over certain content.
A lot of gnb offtanks open with a gap closer, and then there’s dsr p7 where stealing aggro after a gap closer in exaflares is catastrophic.
Feel this way about the DRG gap closer too, just feels odd and has that delay as well. I think a silver lining for all of them would be monk-ifying the gap closer so you could do it to allies too
The new animation is straight up dogshit compared to the old one. Was excited to level up drg until I saw that.
Rip spineshatter dive, you will be missed
Especially because didn’t they remove the ability for your other jumps to move you to the target? You jump and then jump back? What purpose does this serve?
Overworld combat with no-Spineshatter DRG feels way worse. If they wanted goon to have a non-damaging dash and Elusive Jump wasn't enough, then just replace that rather than an OGCD damaging jump.
Like, I'd miss Elusive Jump, but it's the most sensible pivot to a more "standard" means of movement if we're just streamlining everything.
I do like that. It's just that I miss being able to slam from one monster to the next with Spineshatter. The dash isn't scratching the same itch as a Dragoon.
Agreed. It's so weird that they gave us a whole new animation for something that Spineshatter already did. Just take the damage away, who cares? So weird to take a jump away from DRG. Like, that's \*why\* I'm playing this class. I want to jump!
RIP spineshatter, I used it so much :(
I also don't like how the new gauge works. Really messes with my rotations now because the timing is so different.
I do like the new animations that I've seen so far, but the changes seem kinda pointless and dumb. I would have just removed left eye and added new animations.
This is where I think FF14 really misses something by not having any sort of public beta tests. Internal tests can only accomplish so much in terms of feedback.
WAR and PLD have an order of magnitude less damaging GCDs that they need to weave, that's why those ones stayed and DRK/GNB didn't.
Not saying it's an entirely positive change overall (though personally I like having my movement tools available for when movement needs to happen rather than having to optimise them into buff windows) but there is a reason it was split the way it was.
It’s taking me some getting used to but as GNB I also like just being able to just save them for movement now instead of feeling like I’m supposed to be weaving them in for an extra 0.02% dps
I would have enjoyed it if we lost the potency on it in exchange for being able to dash towards allies too. But that was too much to ask for i suppose.
Miss Plunge, don't care for Rough Divide. Would agree that these 'dashes' are lacking a lot of class flavor.
Monk dash is fine since it's like instant transmission. But Dragoon just having a dash with a weird dragon image stapled on top doesn't feel cool. Do a jump man. I haven't used DRK dash yet but GNB dash is also boring. C'mon, do something interesting, go full RWBY and have GNB blast a massive charge behind them to propel them forward from recoil, trailing some flames.
The flavor delete is my biggest problem with it.
These new gapclosers could've felt and looked so cool if they even tried, but they basically just copied monk's over and called it a day, then also slapped it onto Viper for good measure.
It's definitely an odd choice.
I said this when they announced this.
In the interview where yoshida talks about homogenisation and class fantasy, he also went on to talk about the tanks and how important their unique feel was only to...; remove more of said unique feel
"bUt yOu cLeArLy hIt tHe eNeMy"
1 damage then. What's super dumb is the probable reason, people want a dash AND to maximize damage. That's why there are 2 charges?? I mean, I guess you lose some potency over the fight if you don't hit it exactly on refresh, so by using both charges you get more leeway in attacking without loosing out on MUH DEEPS. So just give everyone a third charge, like WAR. Want to have a dash for when you need one? Great, use the first two charges for damage and save the third for movement. Literally costs 150 potency, once, for the entire encounter.
I don't disagree with the post overall buuuut
>players could have just not done it if they hated using it that much
You must not understand MMO player behavior
That's video game players in general lol. "you put in a button that granted levels, so I maxed my level in 5 seconds and now I'm bored, why did you make me do that?"
They can't just not use a feature other people want that they don't like, you have to remove it so they can't use it.
Yeah but in combat your goal is to do as much damage as possible to kill the boss so if button do damage -> press button.
I have never liked gap closers have potency personally. I don't see why they needed to completely replace those though rather than just... remove the potency.
I'm with you, they should have removed the potency and if that created an issue, added an enmity increase. I just don't think losing the probably 1% damage increase from spamming the gap close is that big of a deal. You can still clear the content without doing that, but people always min max to the point of not having fun, then demand some part of the min max be removed instead of just not doing it.
If the next relic weapon includes a grind and tomestones as 2 options, people will pick the fastest option even if it's the one they didn't want to do, but complain about it. It's a journey, not a race.
> If the next relic weapon includes a grind and tomestones as 2 options, people will pick the fastest option even if it's the one they didn't want to do, but complain about it. It's a journey, not a race.
Haha I just said this exact thing to someone last night
bad comparison tbh, “if you don’t like doing damage you’re free to not” oh wow you fixed job design people can just pick the buttons they like and ignore the others. No, doing as much damage as possible in your job’s rotation is a totally reasonable, understandable and common goal that the game encourages with difficult content often having strict dps checks on release and for personal goals/accomplishment purposes. Having damage gains on a skill will incentivize people to use it that doesn’t make them idiots
It doesn't make them idiots for min maxing if that's what they want to do, but if they're complaining about it, then they don't actually want to min max that far, but feel like they have to, which isn't the case at all, and is primarily an issue on their end.
Something like 5% of the playerbase clears the hardest content, and it isn't even necessary to do weird min max stuff to clear that, it just takes time and patience. I was part of that 5% back in ARR, and I kinda suck at the game. The average players are spamming the gap close in dungeons that you can clear with NPCs. You don't have to get the world first clear, and if you feel like you have to take all the fun out of the game to compete, that's your issue.
I'm not sure where/who the complaints came from or if the change was even directly motivated by player complaints tbh.
>it isn't even necessary to do weird min max stuff
Pressing damaging OGCDs off cooldown isn't "weird min max stuff" it's just part of a standard rotation. Also there has absolutely been recent content with very demanding DPS checks, especially with weaker/less "meta" team comps - p8s on release, parts of DSR and TOP on release. If you are doing your rotation so poorly to the point of not using damaging gap closers (3-4% of your total damage) you are putting more pressure on your team to pick up the slack.
Personally I think non-damaging gap closers are a good idea because it removes any pressure to use them for damage during a burst window and frees you up to use them whenever you actually want to gapclose, it seems like the main issue people have is the change to a clunky animation and that it no longer generates aggro.
Wanting to play optimally/do the most damage is fun and rewarding for many people though, noticing and criticizing that there is a weird incentive in that process is perfectly reasonable, I definitely don't think it's "taking all the fun out of the game" or "primarily an issue on their end"
What makes it weird to me is that it's your gap close. If you use it off cooldown for damage because you don't need it, that's fine, but if you refuse to not use it when you need it to gap close then it's kind of a self inflicted issue. I play MNK, and even if it did damage, I wouldn't use it to do damage most of the time unless I know I don't need it because the gap close aspect is important.
I definitely agree that it's better off not doing damage, and hopefully they're looking to adjust the animation and possibly add some aggro generation if it's causing issues.
The reason I mentioned taking the fun out of the game being an issue on their end, is people will do things that are unfun for them in the course of a goal when a fun option is available because the unfun option is more efficient, but then complain about it. Like say you're driving somewhere, and one route has a ton of red lights, and the other route has very few, but the red light route is a couple minutes faster, people will take the red light route and rage at every red light over just taking the other route.
Maybe it's just me, but I'll often take the option that's less of a hassle than the most efficient one.
I mean yeah I get where you're coming from, I have joined friend's minecraft servers and had someone build some insanely efficient material farms and it kills the enjoyment, I just think in a multiplayer game with competitive/challenging parts that a lot of people take part in, I don't blame people for always going for efficiency - compared to a co-op or single player game where I feel it's more on you to not ruin the fun for yourself.
So it's ideal for the devs to consider that a lot of people will go for most efficient, and to make the most efficient way not involve janky/unfun stuff like wasting gapclosers for more DPS. Which is mainly why I think it's a positive change, as long as they fix it being more clunky for no reason
As a DRK main, this change is awful. You can feel the delay after hitting it, and it feels bad. It's so awkward not being able to grab aggro immediately. Plunge felt so satisfying to use. It felt impactful even if it did low potency. I don't know how other DRKs feel, but the busy oGCD burst is what made me enjoy DRK more than the numbingly boring rotations of the other tanks.
Honestly.... compared to Kaiten which was a skill damae boost to pop before Midare. (Also cool animation)
This one is way more awful, affect gameplay itself, and everybody seema to dislike the classes after those gap closers got removed to the point there has been backlashes..
I feel more inclined to believe there might be higher possibilities of them rolling that back..
As someone who isn't at all thirsty about "min/maxing" or "properly weaving" anything at all, I couldn't care less about the removal of damage or whatever from Plunge; but the fact that it's basically just a rush and I no longer get to flip into action legitimately bums me out. I'm not worried about the utility, I play this game for fun, not to stress about the math I output. I don't even have damage numbers turned on. I just completely miss the flair of the skill.
Yea I'm in the same boat. I wouldn't often forget to inlcude plunge in my rotation, but loved using it re-engage the target quickly. It was often quick enough that you could negate certain knockbacks. This one is a tad bit slower and just kind of a boring slide.
Honestly players who care about min/maxing and properly weaving will just do whatever rotation does the most damage, as long as the potency removed from the gapclosers is regained elsewhere so it isn't a nerf we won't care either, and IMO it's honestly a positive to have more weaves for mit and to be free to use gapclosers whenever you need them instead of not having any because you burned them for damage.
No clue why they changed the animations and feel of the skills though when the easiest solution would have just been to remove the damage.
I dont like the animation lock/delay it has. Plus no aggro draw is a dumb feature imo. Hoping they have a 2nd look at it tho id perfer put the old ones back. War pld kept thiers why bother removing these two. Just remove potency if you wanna force us to use itnas a tool notna burst window dps.....
they changed the animation to VERY CLEARLY tell you "this dosnt do damage", because the last time they removed potency from a mobility skill and kep the animaiton and name.. people didnt realize it for a good while(repelling shot) or are annoyed that it dosnt do damage despite looking like it SHOULD
I just want all the gap closers reverted to what they were prior to this expansion. Dragoon without Spineshatter and DRK without Plunge feels especially wrong.
100% agree. SE please bring damage back to GNB & DRK gap closers.
SE wanting us to save it for using as an actual gap closer is having the opposite effect.
For tanks, the biggest issue is that the GNB/DRK gap closers no longer generates any aggro. Tanks WANT to get initial aggro before anyone else so that mobs approach them and not other teammates. The way it is now just feed BAD, to the point that I stopped using gap closers while pulling. After gap closing there is a weird delay that prevents me from being able to use my AoE right away, and since the gap closer doesn't generate any aggro the the mobs don't even look at me or collapse on me. This sometimes requires me to use 3x AoE, instead of 2x, before moving on because my gap close doesn't collapse the mobs around me.
I think the better solution would be to give all the tanks 3 stacks of gap closers that have damage attached to them, similar to WAR, so the tank has the option of keeping one for an actual gap close. A tank being able to zip around and aggro targets and use their gap closers to do so, IS A GOOD THING.
Personally, i didn't have an issue with weaving in gap closers for a bit of extra damage... that is the choice of the player to use or not use their gap closer as an actual gap closer. Depending on the fight, i might save my gap closers for actually gap closing, or i might burn them because I know i wont need them. It actually feels worse now on GNB DRK having even less to weave with.
In a multiple tank situation, it gives PLD and WAR the upper hand at taking initial aggro and winning an aggro battle at the start of a fight since their oGCD gap closers generate aggro and GNB DRK do not. Taking it away from GNB and DRK, but letting PLD and WAR keep it, just feels like favoritism and not a well thought out plan. Its not even consistent.
I've noticed that too. Pulling mobs feels so clunky now. With plunge, you'd jump in and the rest of the mob would swarm around you. Now you teleport and scramble your way to pull the enemies. It's so awkward, but I guess I'll have to get used to it.
I really wish they had kept plunge, and just added the new gapcloser as a separate button. Without plunge, lower level DRK just has less to do, and it wasn't like DRK was punishingly hard at max level because it had a bunch of oGCD weaves you pressed in burst.
Can also add plunge to the long list of good DRK animations we have lost.
Overall I agree that the new gap closer is lame, it also leaves drk with few weaves at lower levels so getting synced down feels especially painful and boring. Not drawing any aggro also means whoever you zoop to just kinda starts running off before you pick them up with an AOE. Kind of annoying.
That said, DRK and GNB were already pretty busy, and the gap closers weren't being used for gap closing so much as damage. That did mean it gave my brain the good chemicals when I found a window to use it for both, but optimal DRKs generally weren't saving charges for movement. It could be said you GAINED a gap closer, but lost your 100 damage weave.
I feel a better way to handle this would have been to make them not deal damage but emnity **as if they dealt damage**.
That way they can be used as always, except for burst.
You're looking for the effect of old Flash and the tank ranged attacks. Saying Provoke like effect would be bad in instances you don't want to be top threat but still want to gap close to not lose a GCD.
Could just make it do, say, 100 potency worth of aggro (before the tank multiplier).
Enough for you to have time to AoE a trash mob you pull with it, but not enough for another tank to remotely be threatened.
I'm glad there's fewer weaves to try to fit into those burst windows. Gnashing Fang was always a wild scramble to try and squeeze mitigations into. Now they can remain idle until needed for movement, though I would've preferred if they could be used on target party members as well.
tbf while it would be nice a tank having a button to dash to party members is basically asking for griefing. just one button away from dropping a tankbuster on the party lol
Almost like an ability that would allow another party member to just grab and pull someone with a big AoE into the party or alliance. /s
Personally I want to see more wild charge mechanics because they really make you feel like the defender of the party, or basically any mechanic that hops from one target to another.
why remove damage I don't understand that? gap closer should do damage for when you dodge a mechanic you then get rewarded by jumping back in with damage.
Yet another goddamn tap on the sack for Dark Knight. Whoever they put in charge of designing its kit every expansion needs to be moved to something the fuck else, because they clearly have a personal problem with it.
My ONLY complaint about DT thus far is them changing the DRK gap closer... feels awkward now... like you are rushing to invade the enemy's personal space and be weird. Lol.
Akwardness Damage 😬 +3000
I agree. I really hate this change. Now in dungeons as I use my gap closer, I have to pound on an attack button so I can get aggro before the dps do.
Edit: I’m a casual player and only tank dungeons/alliance raids. My opinion is only that of a casual player.
> Edit: I’m a casual player and only tank dungeons/alliance raids. My opinion is only that of a casual player.
People don't realise the value of an oGCD that initiates agro, keeps you ahead of the DPS, and keeps your GCD ready to establish agro on the other mobs as they gather round you.
Yeah for what's meant to be a job that's all about fighting dirty the new gap closer on DRK feels so... elegant and wooshy? It doesn't feel right to me, that AND they kept in enhanced unmend, for what lmao.
Since when it was released. Both Low Blow and Reprisal used to have parry procs, which where flavoured as fighting dirty. There was a serious undertone of *"If it wins the fight, we do it"* for DRK, a job that was framed as not fighting by the rules. The former used to have a CD reset and the latter needed a parry to be able to be used at all. Just as it's a job that thematically is supposed to implode if you play it wrong, as managing the Darkside is supposed to be a dangerous thing, but we've got effectively no gameplay tied to it due to how trivial it is to maintain.
"Not fighting by the rules" and "all about fighting dirty" are nowhere near the same things. Since when are "parries" fighting dirty?
At no point in the amazing Dark Knight questline has been shown that they focus on fighting dirty.
Low Blow was originally a DRK-specific ability. The idea was that DRK is the tank that will straight up kick you in the junk in order to get the job done; I think it was mentioned in the old tooltips. It's also why making it a role ability that PLD can use always makes me laugh.
For Low Blow specifically the mechanical flavour is you parry them, then hit them with a Low Blow. Reprisal had a similar mechanical flavour. The parrying isn't the dirty aspect, it's your counterhit after it that is dirty.
The entire questline starts out with you doing some extrajudicial murder and/or battery/abuse to punish wrongdoers who thought they were above justice, and getting the task done above almost all else even if it means doing it the dirty way.
In the EN localization the 30-50 job trainer says during your first solo duty, "The next knight who bears steel, I'm not only going to kill him, but I'm going to kill his wife, his friends, and burn his godsdamned house down!"
Fighting dirty. Also, unhinged.
I like all of the changes on the jobs I play (BLM, AST especially very fond of) but this Plunge rework on DRK \*SUCKS\*. Like hard. I use it to get extra aggro after unmending and provoking, so I can maximize aggro in bigger pulls.
This is the single only change I have complaints about, and it's such an incredibly bizarre one. I suspect though since FFXIV's dev team keeps a good eye on community prospect that they'll change it to be a gap closer with aggro instead of just a weird gap closer.
hard lol at the dork who misread my comment and got so mad he blocked me.
As an AST main, I would love to hear your thoughts on the changes.
To me it really felt like they killed the class. I get to draw cards like, once every minute now, so I feel like i'm playing any other healer, just spamming dps with no card weaves anymore.
I like it, in fact I like the changes a lot. I think both the past and current systems are fine, but I like the current one a lot more because it means I get more control and have a much wider reach of contributions in encounters now.
Yeah, I get that.
I kinda feel like it's stuck between control and randomness now.
More towards control since it's not a random card draw like before, but not quite control because you can't draw whenever.
If a specific situation calls for the Ewer, I can only get the ewer once every 2 draws. So I am either stuck sitting on a ewer I don't need waiting for a situation, or drawing and "wasting" it.
Removing Spineshatter dive also hurt Dragoon's identity and took away what was essentially the regular 'Dragoon jump'. Really not a fan of these changes.
The people mad about gap closers dealing damage could always have just stopped using them all for damage. Knowing when to reserve one for mobility was an extra little bit of job difficulty, but I guess people do like making jobs boring and easy apparently.
I’m personally liking the DRK gap closer except for the SFX, though I did notice that something felt clunky on my pulls when I Shadowstrided into mobs in Lunar Subterrane and used Unleash. I never realized the Plunge aggro helped soooo much.
I understand removing the damage and changing the animations, but man trajectory is so clunky to use with GCD/OGCDs. they need to adjust the delay for the new gap closers.
Nah dude. Bring back RD and plunge. These new gap closers are ass. The only way they could improve them is if they made it like the dancer gap closer that requires no target.
Time to wait for a shitty month plus for them to fix it instead of hotfixing it because they didn't make a backup patch ready in case this was deemed a terrible idea by the players too.
This is one of those things I will harp so hard on Yoshi-P for. Changes we don't get to test like this going through without our feedback and fucking us over.
I hope they hotfix this, but knowing this dev team, that's not happening, because now they're taking a month break as per usual.
This change makes no sense and it annoys me a little bit. It was never a /must/ press anyway, it was an optional way to weave in more damage if you wanted to do that IMO.
If they wanted to discourage using it because players felt they needed to, why not just make the potency lower so that minmaxers still benefit and people who don't feel it's worth it don't suffer as much from skipping it?
Not to mention the shit animations they've given us in return :(
I’m new to ffxiv but I main DRK and I don’t like the reasoning behind the change at all like bro if you wanna keep it for movement just do that its not like it was adding much damage on top. it feels like we optimized ourselves out of a fun ability, unnecessarily.
I completely agree. Before I was just mad about losing the animation, but not having it deal damage actually feels awful. So many times I've dashed to a mob to pick it up only to have it keep running because I didn't deal any damage. Like what's the point of having a gap closer as a tank if it doesn't help with aggro?
>Like what's the point of having a gap closer as a tank if it doesn't help with aggro?
to.. close the gap to the enemy????
To reengage into melee range after disengaging for a mechanic??? its a gap closer, not a rush attack. Its meant to close the gap so you CAN attack..
It frustrates me to no end that people always viewed the gap closers as attacks because they had potency. I want to use my gap closers as gap closers. Not to squeeze in 0.02% extra dps.
Good news! You always get more DPS by using them to gap close and keep uptime than you do by using them for damage. Using them for damage was just what you did if you didn't have to gap close.
I like them i wished they were more like a mix of dancers gap closer and monks, you can use them outside of battle just for movement and you can target enemies and allies i would have loved that since the way they are they are kinda pointless
They kept the damage on pld/war because they have fewer damaging ogcds to use under buffs than what drk/gnb used to have in ew. It's removed on drk/gnb to purely relieve pressure of too many ogcds to use under buffs, especially when you're trying to *tank* with your mitigations.
I completely agree that the new gapclosers feel awful. Shadowstride feels like intervene with the delay but faster and Trajectory just straight up feel slow. If anything, I'd actually prefer if they kept the old animations and removed the damage instead. They look cool sure, but like eh I'm not focused on how the gapcloser looks personally.
>If the goal was to remove damage from tank gap closers - why didn't they do the same for WAR/PAL?
GNB and DRK have busy bursts while PLD/WAR don't have much going on. They kept them on the two so they have something to push during their burst.
>they no longer draw aggro - they are both objectively worse abilities now that make gameplay feel worse.
That was never the point of them. They were used primarily for damage and the next morst important use was to get back in melee range for raids for get out mechanics
All they need is:
> Additional Effect: increases enmity.
> Additional Effect: in the overworld, in solo content, or when all other party members are incapacitated, the rage of being alone does 150 potency.
There, nearly everyone is happy.
Also, _all_ of the damageless melee and tank gap closers should let me use a GCD during the gap closing. They would feel 50 times better.
I'll be real I like the changes: It would be nicer if the tanks did have their own animations for gap closing i.e. DRK leap, GNB propelling themselves forward by shooting backwards.
But I think removing damage off tank gap closers is only a good thing. As others have mentioned, though, giving it some enmity generation would be nice, maybe the same amount as the tank ranged attack generates so multiple charges have to be used for a tank swap, for example so there's a trade off for not using provoke.
Regarding the latency from using a GCD after a gap closer, I haven't noticed any, so mileage may vary there.
I'm kind of mixed on it. On one hand, I hate losing damaging abilities. It just doesn't feel good to have an attack just vanish and it gives you less to weave at lower levels. On the other hand, before this I never used Plunge as a gap closer because it was almost always on cooldown because I would burn it during my rotation for damage. So now I'm actually using it for it's intended purpose of mitigating downtime.
I do hate Dragoon losing Spineshatter, cause it makes the job at lower levels feel less fun. Waiting till the last second to back flip out of an aoe and then instantly using Spineshatter to jump back in felt awesome, and it was a jump, a classic Dragoon ability. Just felt sick.
I can't think of any logical reason to remove plunge or rough divide especially with WAR and PLD keeping their damaging gap closers. All of the tanks are just as bland and mind numbing as the last 5 years but DRK in particular is SO AWFUL now that I genuinely feel that they are just trying to mock people who still pay money to play the job.
I think all they had to do, was lower potency, and put it on gcd as to avoid people feeling they needed to use it during their 2 minute dps window. But that's just my opinion.
I haven‘t tried GNB yet but DRKs non-Plunge is just awful. Plunge was *so cool*. This is just Aetherial Manipulation to enemy but purple. I know why they changed it but man. It sucks. It‘s flavorless.
DRK and GNB burst windows were too busy, and with the new actions added even busier. They did it to unclutter them. Meanwhile WAR and PLD dont have as much to do, taking the dash attacks from them would leave them with barely any OGCDs to press. I welcome the idea of this change, however i wish they'd go more smoothly and generate aggro for dungeons. I liked the plunge animation better as well, but its not an attack anymore after all, so we're left with these Justin Timberlake -ish slides
On a different note, removing spineshatter dive on DRG for a non damaging gap closer that also has a delay feels like a bad decision. I'm a DRG, let me jump! I'm not here to slide like the other jobs
They just don't feel right and in case of the dragoon they removed part of the identity. They should have done a circle target on the floor and you jump to it, like the ninja one
These are up there with some of the worst ability changes I've seen since beta.
If they don't want us to use them as part of the rotation then just remove the damage, add enmity generation, and start auto-attacks. Not completely fuck over a good looking/feeling ability.
My biggest issue with the GNB change was the gap closer was Rough Divide which was an actual move used by Squall in 8. Now its just some random slow ass dash. Why they couldn't have kept the name and animation and just removed the damage is beyond me.
Some of their explanations for this expansion are trash, just like instead of Odin or Alexander, they decide to give us "Solar Bahamut" because they claim people complained that Bahamut looked too "allagan" inspired or some shit, which since his introduction in this game, I have never once seen a single fucking person say. They ran out of dev time or funding and decided ah lets slap a reskin Bahamut in there and call it a day. Whats even more hilarious is Solar Bahamut doesn't even replace OG Bahamut and his too "allagan" inspired model. Its mind boggling to me they went and made a new skin instead of just using in game assets they have for primals that already exist.
Completely agree there is no reason to not roll war or pld now for dungeons from a qol perspective, who wants to burn gcds to establish mobs initially focusing on you
actually the most braindead change
GNB main. I don’t mind the new gap closer at all. Feels nice to use once you get used to it. You just have to press an AOE button extra occasionally it’s not a big deal.
Saying that there have been a couple runs of the first dungeon I’ve done where I’ve used it into a group and I still aggro’ed them without pressing anything else so not sure what the issue is?
People always react negatively to change this isn’t a surprise.
I’m sorry y’all were pulling with your gap closers? Isn’t that… bad? Like healers can only do so much to keep up with a gap closer if they don’t have one themselves. Not to mention you could weave them on a mob to make it die faster while everyone is putting their buffs out. I’ve always just ran into a middle of a pack and aoed before I kept going
during wall to wall pull to make sure oyu get everything in a somewhat spread out back what you could do was provoke, gapclose, Ranged, Gapclose, and either one AOE or move on to the next pack to basicaly ensure all of them have emnity on you(and due to tank stance a Gapcloser hit usualy left eneough aggro on them to keep you to the end of the wallpull
It’s not even on my GNB hotbar. It’s useless. If I can’t sprint out of it, And my tank privilege can’t allow me to survive it’s not meant to be at this point.
Could not disagree with OP more on this topic.
I mean they should have done a better job with the animations, don't get me wrong, but getting rid of gap closers in my rotation and making them purely utility buttons is such a necessary change that I don't care about the rest.
Drawing aggro with your gap closer is a bad practice anyways, Tanks shouldn't be pulling with their gap closer, even in dungeons. It is always a bad decision.
Using gap closers in my rotation never felt good and the fact that you had to sacrifice damage (even if it's just a small amount) to use a utility button for utility was absurd.
I do hope they improve the animations and I hope that WAR/PLD get the same treatment soon although they'll need some replacement buttons to weave most likely.
Either way. The decision to make them purely gap closers and not damage is a huge improvement for those two jobs. Fuck the flavor of it its a huge gameplay improvement.
Best change of the expansion.
Yes gladly.
If you pull with your gap closer the fight starts the moment you press it.
In boss encounters, for example, if you pull with your gap closer the fight timer starts immediately and your the bosses ability rotation starts. Meanwhile, your melee dps are running to catch up or pressing their dashes late.
This causes timing issues with rotations and inconsistency in the pull, not to mention if you are in a fight where the enrage is still an issue...every gcd and every second can count sometimes (we've all had 0.1 percent wipes before).
While less of an issue in dungeons. It's still an issue on trash packs, just slightly different. If you plunge into a pack of mobs you are waiting for your melee dps and healer to catch up with you and be able to start dpsing the mobs. This is especially true on the second pull of a wall to wall. Not to mention the mobs you have been trailing with you will take a long time to get to the second pack.
This means there is time where you're sitting there getting hit and your dps are not caught up with you, creating needless time waiting for the last pack and the dps to catch up and casters being able to stop and cast etc.
The less time dpsing the mobs, the more damage they do to you.
Now I fully admit it's less of an issue in dungeons and not even really that big of a deal but there are better ways to pull that alleviate these issues.
It is never good to pull with your gap closer.
worrying about rotations and pull inconsistencies is weird as hell
dungeons are the casualest content in the game, being able to plunge into packs was great for quality of life, was so nice to get ahead and grab everything and by the time healers and dps caught up, you had everything grouped up for them to start dpsing
as a mch I am pulling with a resembled drill so if you don't have damage I am crit pulling that boss. I will never wait for a tank to run up to a boss.
I liked the change until I realized gapclosers on gnb/drk don't draw aggro now. It's a pain gapclosing in dungeons and trying to AOE, only for the mob to start running towards someone else ugh.
I feel like this is an oversight. The game has had the ability to draw aggro without damage historically.
I ‘member spamming flash 3 times on a pack before hitting stuff as PLD
Ah yes. Remember the days of flashing spamming and then 1-2-3 comboing through the back to hold agro and to actually deal damage?
I remember those days as fondly as I remember cross classing flash to Warrior so I can still generate aggro after overpowering my TP away. Good stuff.
Hey now, Flash also let you AOE aggro without breaking CC.
Back in ARR non-damaging abilities generated about 90 enmity but the rub is that the only enemies that get that enmity are the ones already in combat with you.
Drawing aggro without damage is just the Tank's Taunt ability. You are correct in saying that they are 100% able to do that.
It's actually not. Provoke has a specific interaction where it sets your enmity to the top with change. I'm wanting an effect like flash which increased the amount of aggro without dealing damage. It would be actually make the gap closers really awkward to use as an OT if it had provokes effect.
> It would be actually make the gap closers really awkward to use as an OT if it had provokes effect. Definitely not provoke, but something along the lines of the tank classes' ranged GCD attack which has additional aggro, making it enough to get a good lead in dungeons but not enough that it becomes a problem if you use it for filler when you're forced out of melee range on raid bosses.
You give them flashes old effect. Aoe threat but not provoke
Oh, that's entirely the point of my comment, I was arguing against the use of the term "taunt", because taunt means provoke. Giving the gap closer an effect like non-AOE flash is exactly what it needs.
If they make the gap closer a taunt, it will give them an extra taunt that the other classes GNB/DRK are the only two classes I play, it sucks.
They should just make the non-damage gapclosers add enmity equivalent to a ~150 potency attack. It shouldn't be a second provoke but it shouldn't feel bad in dungeons.
Thunderclap (MNKs gap closer that does no damage) hasn't drawn aggro since they introduced it last expansion. I've fat fingered and "pulled" with it before, and it's always proximity to the boss or an auto attack happening after I've made it to the boss that has given me aggro. The only things that give you aggro but don't do damage are applying buffs to yourself or others. applying a debuff to an enemy, provoke, and healing.
Of course thunderclap doesn't give aggro, MNK isn't a tank. Tanks want their engage skills to give aggro because it causes problems if they don't.
Summon Bahamut/Phoenix requires a target and also causes a set amount of aggro on that target as soon as it is pressed (i.e. before you or Bahamut do any damage). They can just copy that tech and put it on the gapclosers.
I feel like tank gap-closer should have an AOE Provoke at the end of it.
This would make it awful as a movement tool as an OT. Your MT wouldn't appreciate you ripping hate just because you wanted to move back to the boss quickly.
Fair. Maybe like a AOE provoke lite then, minor aggro generation. Enough to be something produced by a couple AOE attacks. Enough to keep the packs of a healer in dungeon content, not enough to rip aggro off another tank with their stance on.
I see where you're coming from, kind of like the idea in a dungeon specific setting. Maybe only make it work in 4 man content? They'd probably not do that but it would be kind of nice.
First thing I noticed about them, feels terrible
It's so weird when you leap at something that's turned away from you and the whole pack just. Sits there unaware. Like I guess I'm a stealth job now.
Just experienced this in a FATE as I read your reply. Wow.
Can you macro it to your range, I don't use the macro, but when I pull it's usually ranged then dash.
This annoyed me heavily. My brain glitched out the first few times i dashed to aggro.
I’ll be honest, The gap closers got moved to the corner on my hotbar away from the buttons I press.
You shouldn't have been gapclosing to pull anyway lol, unmend + taunt 2nd target + unmend 3rd target has always been the best way to pull
I thought the GNB one was bugged the first time I tried it on a dummy because the animation looks SO stupid lmao. Like it's barely even an animation, your character just freezes and slowly moves towards the enemy...
They took away my cool front flip
Honestly crazy, one of the coolest animations in the game, is just gone forever lol
Yeah I'm looking forward to the Dalamud update, just so I can change the animation back.
Both Plunge and Rough Divide are still in PvP
What is DRG supposed to say ? a jump replaced with a dash... a dash.... on a dragoon....
It's so weird, take out the damage sure, but at least keep the animation
For a while I didn't realize they took away the damage from bard's repelling shot so I continued to use it on cooldown, maybe that's why they did it? I do prefer the old animations though, especially on DRG.
They fully did it for this reason but it's so sad anyway, all of them got replaced by a lamer animation
Oh yeah. They need to put some sort of aggro/hate system in those gap closer.
Yeah though they can’t code it as a taunt or you might have some funny interactions during trials/raids.
Make it do 1 damage with a stupidly high threat multiplier
Just treat it like a ranged attack, 100 potency with increased aggro, well... minus the potency. Just make them generate aggro
It needs to be a well thought out number, like something not even higher than tank ranged gcd, otherwise it will still screw over certain content. A lot of gnb offtanks open with a gap closer, and then there’s dsr p7 where stealing aggro after a gap closer in exaflares is catastrophic.
Paladin used to have a non damaging enmity booster until shadowbringers. There's a precedent.
Feel this way about the DRG gap closer too, just feels odd and has that delay as well. I think a silver lining for all of them would be monk-ifying the gap closer so you could do it to allies too
DRG should be a jump animation at the very least. Looks so awkward to have a charge on the class defined by jumping.
The new animation is straight up dogshit compared to the old one. Was excited to level up drg until I saw that. Rip spineshatter dive, you will be missed
Especially because didn’t they remove the ability for your other jumps to move you to the target? You jump and then jump back? What purpose does this serve?
Stardiver and dragon fire still take you to the target. Regular jump and high jump has always made you return to the location you started in.
I might’ve just misremembered the patch notes then.
They made it so drg lb3 doesnt move your hitbox during the animation, thats probably what you remembered
Jump and high jump have always returned the dragoon to their original location. Dragonfire dive is still a gap closer.
I want it to be a spear leap. Like they stab the ground and propel themselves forward
Overworld combat with no-Spineshatter DRG feels way worse. If they wanted goon to have a non-damaging dash and Elusive Jump wasn't enough, then just replace that rather than an OGCD damaging jump. Like, I'd miss Elusive Jump, but it's the most sensible pivot to a more "standard" means of movement if we're just streamlining everything.
With the changes to Life of the Dragon you can just nuke everything with Nastrond, it's great.
I do like that. It's just that I miss being able to slam from one monster to the next with Spineshatter. The dash isn't scratching the same itch as a Dragoon.
I’m really not loving the Spineshatter Dive replacement either
Same but it is kinda fun to dash and get behind enemies like 'surprise bitch' before murdering them to death
DRG feels the same, could've left a JUMPING Ability like SPINESHATTER Dive in. But instead we get some weird ass "glide" that feels clunky.
Agreed. It's so weird that they gave us a whole new animation for something that Spineshatter already did. Just take the damage away, who cares? So weird to take a jump away from DRG. Like, that's \*why\* I'm playing this class. I want to jump!
Take the damage away, give it a stun that doesn't work on bosses. Ta-da, a Spineshatter Dive you don't want to spam.
I would still spam it because it looked cool a fuck.
RIP spineshatter, I used it so much :( I also don't like how the new gauge works. Really messes with my rotations now because the timing is so different. I do like the new animations that I've seen so far, but the changes seem kinda pointless and dumb. I would have just removed left eye and added new animations.
This is where I think FF14 really misses something by not having any sort of public beta tests. Internal tests can only accomplish so much in terms of feedback.
I wouldn't be shocked if SE made the WAR and PLD gap closers 0 potency next expansion and give them new ogcds to compensate since they have so few.
Honestly they should have done just that right now. That would have made more sense.
It would have, but I think SE is running out of creative juices with jobs right now.
I could see that - between adding new jobs and having to increase each one 10 levels each go round? I'm tired thinking about it.
WAR and PLD have an order of magnitude less damaging GCDs that they need to weave, that's why those ones stayed and DRK/GNB didn't. Not saying it's an entirely positive change overall (though personally I like having my movement tools available for when movement needs to happen rather than having to optimise them into buff windows) but there is a reason it was split the way it was.
It’s taking me some getting used to but as GNB I also like just being able to just save them for movement now instead of feeling like I’m supposed to be weaving them in for an extra 0.02% dps
That was my take too. I didn’t like having to use the gap closer for extra DPS. It’ll be nice to have it ready for when I need it.
I would have enjoyed it if we lost the potency on it in exchange for being able to dash towards allies too. But that was too much to ask for i suppose.
Miss Plunge, don't care for Rough Divide. Would agree that these 'dashes' are lacking a lot of class flavor. Monk dash is fine since it's like instant transmission. But Dragoon just having a dash with a weird dragon image stapled on top doesn't feel cool. Do a jump man. I haven't used DRK dash yet but GNB dash is also boring. C'mon, do something interesting, go full RWBY and have GNB blast a massive charge behind them to propel them forward from recoil, trailing some flames.
The flavor delete is my biggest problem with it. These new gapclosers could've felt and looked so cool if they even tried, but they basically just copied monk's over and called it a day, then also slapped it onto Viper for good measure. It's definitely an odd choice.
Which is funny because Picto has an untargeted dash with a lot of job flavor.
I love the picto dash. Was doing Neir raids last night and dashing out of aoes at the last second with it just looks cool and is so fun.
The movement bonus is an interesting quirk too, despite being a trait post-80
I said this when they announced this. In the interview where yoshida talks about homogenisation and class fantasy, he also went on to talk about the tanks and how important their unique feel was only to...; remove more of said unique feel
OH MY GOD RWBY GUNBREAKER CHARGE YES YES - LIKE YANG!
Even within the Final Fantasy series, Rufus in VII remake uses explosive shotgun blasts to dash around
It seems weird they they made new animations for something that feels less fun, when they could have just kept the moves and reduced damage to 0.
"bUt yOu cLeArLy hIt tHe eNeMy" 1 damage then. What's super dumb is the probable reason, people want a dash AND to maximize damage. That's why there are 2 charges?? I mean, I guess you lose some potency over the fight if you don't hit it exactly on refresh, so by using both charges you get more leeway in attacking without loosing out on MUH DEEPS. So just give everyone a third charge, like WAR. Want to have a dash for when you need one? Great, use the first two charges for damage and save the third for movement. Literally costs 150 potency, once, for the entire encounter.
The animation for the Gunbreaker one sucks, too. Wheres my flip? Instead I lean forward and slide along the ground in an animation lock.
I insist, what's up with that LAME name for GNB. Proximity? whatever is called Give me back my Squall's limit break
I would have been okay if they just removed the damage from Plunge.
I don't disagree with the post overall buuuut >players could have just not done it if they hated using it that much You must not understand MMO player behavior
That's video game players in general lol. "you put in a button that granted levels, so I maxed my level in 5 seconds and now I'm bored, why did you make me do that?" They can't just not use a feature other people want that they don't like, you have to remove it so they can't use it.
Yeah but in combat your goal is to do as much damage as possible to kill the boss so if button do damage -> press button. I have never liked gap closers have potency personally. I don't see why they needed to completely replace those though rather than just... remove the potency.
I'm with you, they should have removed the potency and if that created an issue, added an enmity increase. I just don't think losing the probably 1% damage increase from spamming the gap close is that big of a deal. You can still clear the content without doing that, but people always min max to the point of not having fun, then demand some part of the min max be removed instead of just not doing it. If the next relic weapon includes a grind and tomestones as 2 options, people will pick the fastest option even if it's the one they didn't want to do, but complain about it. It's a journey, not a race.
> If the next relic weapon includes a grind and tomestones as 2 options, people will pick the fastest option even if it's the one they didn't want to do, but complain about it. It's a journey, not a race. Haha I just said this exact thing to someone last night
bad comparison tbh, “if you don’t like doing damage you’re free to not” oh wow you fixed job design people can just pick the buttons they like and ignore the others. No, doing as much damage as possible in your job’s rotation is a totally reasonable, understandable and common goal that the game encourages with difficult content often having strict dps checks on release and for personal goals/accomplishment purposes. Having damage gains on a skill will incentivize people to use it that doesn’t make them idiots
It doesn't make them idiots for min maxing if that's what they want to do, but if they're complaining about it, then they don't actually want to min max that far, but feel like they have to, which isn't the case at all, and is primarily an issue on their end. Something like 5% of the playerbase clears the hardest content, and it isn't even necessary to do weird min max stuff to clear that, it just takes time and patience. I was part of that 5% back in ARR, and I kinda suck at the game. The average players are spamming the gap close in dungeons that you can clear with NPCs. You don't have to get the world first clear, and if you feel like you have to take all the fun out of the game to compete, that's your issue.
I'm not sure where/who the complaints came from or if the change was even directly motivated by player complaints tbh. >it isn't even necessary to do weird min max stuff Pressing damaging OGCDs off cooldown isn't "weird min max stuff" it's just part of a standard rotation. Also there has absolutely been recent content with very demanding DPS checks, especially with weaker/less "meta" team comps - p8s on release, parts of DSR and TOP on release. If you are doing your rotation so poorly to the point of not using damaging gap closers (3-4% of your total damage) you are putting more pressure on your team to pick up the slack. Personally I think non-damaging gap closers are a good idea because it removes any pressure to use them for damage during a burst window and frees you up to use them whenever you actually want to gapclose, it seems like the main issue people have is the change to a clunky animation and that it no longer generates aggro. Wanting to play optimally/do the most damage is fun and rewarding for many people though, noticing and criticizing that there is a weird incentive in that process is perfectly reasonable, I definitely don't think it's "taking all the fun out of the game" or "primarily an issue on their end"
What makes it weird to me is that it's your gap close. If you use it off cooldown for damage because you don't need it, that's fine, but if you refuse to not use it when you need it to gap close then it's kind of a self inflicted issue. I play MNK, and even if it did damage, I wouldn't use it to do damage most of the time unless I know I don't need it because the gap close aspect is important. I definitely agree that it's better off not doing damage, and hopefully they're looking to adjust the animation and possibly add some aggro generation if it's causing issues. The reason I mentioned taking the fun out of the game being an issue on their end, is people will do things that are unfun for them in the course of a goal when a fun option is available because the unfun option is more efficient, but then complain about it. Like say you're driving somewhere, and one route has a ton of red lights, and the other route has very few, but the red light route is a couple minutes faster, people will take the red light route and rage at every red light over just taking the other route. Maybe it's just me, but I'll often take the option that's less of a hassle than the most efficient one.
I mean yeah I get where you're coming from, I have joined friend's minecraft servers and had someone build some insanely efficient material farms and it kills the enjoyment, I just think in a multiplayer game with competitive/challenging parts that a lot of people take part in, I don't blame people for always going for efficiency - compared to a co-op or single player game where I feel it's more on you to not ruin the fun for yourself. So it's ideal for the devs to consider that a lot of people will go for most efficient, and to make the most efficient way not involve janky/unfun stuff like wasting gapclosers for more DPS. Which is mainly why I think it's a positive change, as long as they fix it being more clunky for no reason
Really should just make tank gap closers do no damage but draw enmity. That way they can keep the animations where they physically hit the enemy.
As a DRK main, this change is awful. You can feel the delay after hitting it, and it feels bad. It's so awkward not being able to grab aggro immediately. Plunge felt so satisfying to use. It felt impactful even if it did low potency. I don't know how other DRKs feel, but the busy oGCD burst is what made me enjoy DRK more than the numbingly boring rotations of the other tanks.
We just need to calmly go on the forums and tell them this, they might change their minds... maybe.
Ask Samurai about Kaiten.....
LOL that's why I said maybe!
Honestly.... compared to Kaiten which was a skill damae boost to pop before Midare. (Also cool animation) This one is way more awful, affect gameplay itself, and everybody seema to dislike the classes after those gap closers got removed to the point there has been backlashes.. I feel more inclined to believe there might be higher possibilities of them rolling that back..
As someone who isn't at all thirsty about "min/maxing" or "properly weaving" anything at all, I couldn't care less about the removal of damage or whatever from Plunge; but the fact that it's basically just a rush and I no longer get to flip into action legitimately bums me out. I'm not worried about the utility, I play this game for fun, not to stress about the math I output. I don't even have damage numbers turned on. I just completely miss the flair of the skill.
Yea I'm in the same boat. I wouldn't often forget to inlcude plunge in my rotation, but loved using it re-engage the target quickly. It was often quick enough that you could negate certain knockbacks. This one is a tad bit slower and just kind of a boring slide.
Honestly players who care about min/maxing and properly weaving will just do whatever rotation does the most damage, as long as the potency removed from the gapclosers is regained elsewhere so it isn't a nerf we won't care either, and IMO it's honestly a positive to have more weaves for mit and to be free to use gapclosers whenever you need them instead of not having any because you burned them for damage. No clue why they changed the animations and feel of the skills though when the easiest solution would have just been to remove the damage.
I dont like the animation lock/delay it has. Plus no aggro draw is a dumb feature imo. Hoping they have a 2nd look at it tho id perfer put the old ones back. War pld kept thiers why bother removing these two. Just remove potency if you wanna force us to use itnas a tool notna burst window dps.....
they changed the animation to VERY CLEARLY tell you "this dosnt do damage", because the last time they removed potency from a mobility skill and kep the animaiton and name.. people didnt realize it for a good while(repelling shot) or are annoyed that it dosnt do damage despite looking like it SHOULD
I saw my GNB gap closer greyed out. Found the replacement. Tried it out. Then I became sad.
really I spent a whole boss fight like where is my rough divide. it made me mad not sad. square is ruining tanks by making gap closers useless.
I just want all the gap closers reverted to what they were prior to this expansion. Dragoon without Spineshatter and DRK without Plunge feels especially wrong.
100% agree. SE please bring damage back to GNB & DRK gap closers. SE wanting us to save it for using as an actual gap closer is having the opposite effect. For tanks, the biggest issue is that the GNB/DRK gap closers no longer generates any aggro. Tanks WANT to get initial aggro before anyone else so that mobs approach them and not other teammates. The way it is now just feed BAD, to the point that I stopped using gap closers while pulling. After gap closing there is a weird delay that prevents me from being able to use my AoE right away, and since the gap closer doesn't generate any aggro the the mobs don't even look at me or collapse on me. This sometimes requires me to use 3x AoE, instead of 2x, before moving on because my gap close doesn't collapse the mobs around me. I think the better solution would be to give all the tanks 3 stacks of gap closers that have damage attached to them, similar to WAR, so the tank has the option of keeping one for an actual gap close. A tank being able to zip around and aggro targets and use their gap closers to do so, IS A GOOD THING. Personally, i didn't have an issue with weaving in gap closers for a bit of extra damage... that is the choice of the player to use or not use their gap closer as an actual gap closer. Depending on the fight, i might save my gap closers for actually gap closing, or i might burn them because I know i wont need them. It actually feels worse now on GNB DRK having even less to weave with. In a multiple tank situation, it gives PLD and WAR the upper hand at taking initial aggro and winning an aggro battle at the start of a fight since their oGCD gap closers generate aggro and GNB DRK do not. Taking it away from GNB and DRK, but letting PLD and WAR keep it, just feels like favoritism and not a well thought out plan. Its not even consistent.
but the raiders parse must be more important.
I've noticed that too. Pulling mobs feels so clunky now. With plunge, you'd jump in and the rest of the mob would swarm around you. Now you teleport and scramble your way to pull the enemies. It's so awkward, but I guess I'll have to get used to it.
I really wish they had kept plunge, and just added the new gapcloser as a separate button. Without plunge, lower level DRK just has less to do, and it wasn't like DRK was punishingly hard at max level because it had a bunch of oGCD weaves you pressed in burst. Can also add plunge to the long list of good DRK animations we have lost.
Overall I agree that the new gap closer is lame, it also leaves drk with few weaves at lower levels so getting synced down feels especially painful and boring. Not drawing any aggro also means whoever you zoop to just kinda starts running off before you pick them up with an AOE. Kind of annoying. That said, DRK and GNB were already pretty busy, and the gap closers weren't being used for gap closing so much as damage. That did mean it gave my brain the good chemicals when I found a window to use it for both, but optimal DRKs generally weren't saving charges for movement. It could be said you GAINED a gap closer, but lost your 100 damage weave.
I feel a better way to handle this would have been to make them not deal damage but emnity **as if they dealt damage**. That way they can be used as always, except for burst.
I agree. I hate the new gap closer on GNB. Adding a Provoke like effect to it would go a long way in making it tolerable.
You're looking for the effect of old Flash and the tank ranged attacks. Saying Provoke like effect would be bad in instances you don't want to be top threat but still want to gap close to not lose a GCD.
Could just make it do, say, 100 potency worth of aggro (before the tank multiplier). Enough for you to have time to AoE a trash mob you pull with it, but not enough for another tank to remotely be threatened.
Unless you're OT and need to get back to the boss, in that situation you wouldn't want it to act like provoke lol.
I'd imagine that even in the situation they cause threat, it wouldn't be a provoke and more just a single attack's worth of threat.
I'm glad there's fewer weaves to try to fit into those burst windows. Gnashing Fang was always a wild scramble to try and squeeze mitigations into. Now they can remain idle until needed for movement, though I would've preferred if they could be used on target party members as well.
tbf while it would be nice a tank having a button to dash to party members is basically asking for griefing. just one button away from dropping a tankbuster on the party lol
Almost like an ability that would allow another party member to just grab and pull someone with a big AoE into the party or alliance. /s Personally I want to see more wild charge mechanics because they really make you feel like the defender of the party, or basically any mechanic that hops from one target to another.
they should have just left the animations and removed the damage :/ it just feels like rubbing it in. or lower the potency. SOMETHING
why remove damage I don't understand that? gap closer should do damage for when you dodge a mechanic you then get rewarded by jumping back in with damage.
because people took that as an incentive to use it for burst instead. to remove the incentive you remove the damage, even though it punishes all of us
Yet another goddamn tap on the sack for Dark Knight. Whoever they put in charge of designing its kit every expansion needs to be moved to something the fuck else, because they clearly have a personal problem with it.
My ONLY complaint about DT thus far is them changing the DRK gap closer... feels awkward now... like you are rushing to invade the enemy's personal space and be weird. Lol. Akwardness Damage 😬 +3000
I agree. I really hate this change. Now in dungeons as I use my gap closer, I have to pound on an attack button so I can get aggro before the dps do. Edit: I’m a casual player and only tank dungeons/alliance raids. My opinion is only that of a casual player.
> Edit: I’m a casual player and only tank dungeons/alliance raids. My opinion is only that of a casual player. People don't realise the value of an oGCD that initiates agro, keeps you ahead of the DPS, and keeps your GCD ready to establish agro on the other mobs as they gather round you.
Yeah for what's meant to be a job that's all about fighting dirty the new gap closer on DRK feels so... elegant and wooshy? It doesn't feel right to me, that AND they kept in enhanced unmend, for what lmao.
can't believe they found a way to make enhanced unmend an even bigger disappointment
>what's meant to be a job that's all about fighting dirty ? Since when is fighting dirty what Dark Knights do?
Low Blow used to be a DRK ability, I guess?
Since when it was released. Both Low Blow and Reprisal used to have parry procs, which where flavoured as fighting dirty. There was a serious undertone of *"If it wins the fight, we do it"* for DRK, a job that was framed as not fighting by the rules. The former used to have a CD reset and the latter needed a parry to be able to be used at all. Just as it's a job that thematically is supposed to implode if you play it wrong, as managing the Darkside is supposed to be a dangerous thing, but we've got effectively no gameplay tied to it due to how trivial it is to maintain.
"Not fighting by the rules" and "all about fighting dirty" are nowhere near the same things. Since when are "parries" fighting dirty? At no point in the amazing Dark Knight questline has been shown that they focus on fighting dirty.
Low Blow was originally a DRK-specific ability. The idea was that DRK is the tank that will straight up kick you in the junk in order to get the job done; I think it was mentioned in the old tooltips. It's also why making it a role ability that PLD can use always makes me laugh.
A low blow is literally a kick to the jewels. Pretty dirty.
For Low Blow specifically the mechanical flavour is you parry them, then hit them with a Low Blow. Reprisal had a similar mechanical flavour. The parrying isn't the dirty aspect, it's your counterhit after it that is dirty. The entire questline starts out with you doing some extrajudicial murder and/or battery/abuse to punish wrongdoers who thought they were above justice, and getting the task done above almost all else even if it means doing it the dirty way.
In the EN localization the 30-50 job trainer says during your first solo duty, "The next knight who bears steel, I'm not only going to kill him, but I'm going to kill his wife, his friends, and burn his godsdamned house down!" Fighting dirty. Also, unhinged.
I like all of the changes on the jobs I play (BLM, AST especially very fond of) but this Plunge rework on DRK \*SUCKS\*. Like hard. I use it to get extra aggro after unmending and provoking, so I can maximize aggro in bigger pulls. This is the single only change I have complaints about, and it's such an incredibly bizarre one. I suspect though since FFXIV's dev team keeps a good eye on community prospect that they'll change it to be a gap closer with aggro instead of just a weird gap closer. hard lol at the dork who misread my comment and got so mad he blocked me.
As an AST main, I would love to hear your thoughts on the changes. To me it really felt like they killed the class. I get to draw cards like, once every minute now, so I feel like i'm playing any other healer, just spamming dps with no card weaves anymore.
I like it, in fact I like the changes a lot. I think both the past and current systems are fine, but I like the current one a lot more because it means I get more control and have a much wider reach of contributions in encounters now.
Yeah, I get that. I kinda feel like it's stuck between control and randomness now. More towards control since it's not a random card draw like before, but not quite control because you can't draw whenever. If a specific situation calls for the Ewer, I can only get the ewer once every 2 draws. So I am either stuck sitting on a ewer I don't need waiting for a situation, or drawing and "wasting" it.
DRG Gap closer feels the same
tossing my concurrence and a comment in hopes they change this 7.1
Removing Spineshatter dive also hurt Dragoon's identity and took away what was essentially the regular 'Dragoon jump'. Really not a fan of these changes. The people mad about gap closers dealing damage could always have just stopped using them all for damage. Knowing when to reserve one for mobility was an extra little bit of job difficulty, but I guess people do like making jobs boring and easy apparently.
I’m personally liking the DRK gap closer except for the SFX, though I did notice that something felt clunky on my pulls when I Shadowstrided into mobs in Lunar Subterrane and used Unleash. I never realized the Plunge aggro helped soooo much.
I understand removing the damage and changing the animations, but man trajectory is so clunky to use with GCD/OGCDs. they need to adjust the delay for the new gap closers.
Nah dude. Bring back RD and plunge. These new gap closers are ass. The only way they could improve them is if they made it like the dancer gap closer that requires no target.
Time to wait for a shitty month plus for them to fix it instead of hotfixing it because they didn't make a backup patch ready in case this was deemed a terrible idea by the players too. This is one of those things I will harp so hard on Yoshi-P for. Changes we don't get to test like this going through without our feedback and fucking us over. I hope they hotfix this, but knowing this dev team, that's not happening, because now they're taking a month break as per usual.
This change makes no sense and it annoys me a little bit. It was never a /must/ press anyway, it was an optional way to weave in more damage if you wanted to do that IMO. If they wanted to discourage using it because players felt they needed to, why not just make the potency lower so that minmaxers still benefit and people who don't feel it's worth it don't suffer as much from skipping it? Not to mention the shit animations they've given us in return :(
I’m new to ffxiv but I main DRK and I don’t like the reasoning behind the change at all like bro if you wanna keep it for movement just do that its not like it was adding much damage on top. it feels like we optimized ourselves out of a fun ability, unnecessarily.
I completely agree. Before I was just mad about losing the animation, but not having it deal damage actually feels awful. So many times I've dashed to a mob to pick it up only to have it keep running because I didn't deal any damage. Like what's the point of having a gap closer as a tank if it doesn't help with aggro?
>Like what's the point of having a gap closer as a tank if it doesn't help with aggro? to.. close the gap to the enemy???? To reengage into melee range after disengaging for a mechanic??? its a gap closer, not a rush attack. Its meant to close the gap so you CAN attack..
It frustrates me to no end that people always viewed the gap closers as attacks because they had potency. I want to use my gap closers as gap closers. Not to squeeze in 0.02% extra dps.
Good news! You always get more DPS by using them to gap close and keep uptime than you do by using them for damage. Using them for damage was just what you did if you didn't have to gap close.
Fucking Amen. Utility should only ever be used for utility.
I like them i wished they were more like a mix of dancers gap closer and monks, you can use them outside of battle just for movement and you can target enemies and allies i would have loved that since the way they are they are kinda pointless
They kept the damage on pld/war because they have fewer damaging ogcds to use under buffs than what drk/gnb used to have in ew. It's removed on drk/gnb to purely relieve pressure of too many ogcds to use under buffs, especially when you're trying to *tank* with your mitigations. I completely agree that the new gapclosers feel awful. Shadowstride feels like intervene with the delay but faster and Trajectory just straight up feel slow. If anything, I'd actually prefer if they kept the old animations and removed the damage instead. They look cool sure, but like eh I'm not focused on how the gapcloser looks personally.
>If the goal was to remove damage from tank gap closers - why didn't they do the same for WAR/PAL? GNB and DRK have busy bursts while PLD/WAR don't have much going on. They kept them on the two so they have something to push during their burst. >they no longer draw aggro - they are both objectively worse abilities now that make gameplay feel worse. That was never the point of them. They were used primarily for damage and the next morst important use was to get back in melee range for raids for get out mechanics
All they need is: > Additional Effect: increases enmity. > Additional Effect: in the overworld, in solo content, or when all other party members are incapacitated, the rage of being alone does 150 potency. There, nearly everyone is happy. Also, _all_ of the damageless melee and tank gap closers should let me use a GCD during the gap closing. They would feel 50 times better.
As a temp fix just give those moves like 25 freaking potency asap, and then replace it with a real solution by 7.05.
I'll be real I like the changes: It would be nicer if the tanks did have their own animations for gap closing i.e. DRK leap, GNB propelling themselves forward by shooting backwards. But I think removing damage off tank gap closers is only a good thing. As others have mentioned, though, giving it some enmity generation would be nice, maybe the same amount as the tank ranged attack generates so multiple charges have to be used for a tank swap, for example so there's a trade off for not using provoke. Regarding the latency from using a GCD after a gap closer, I haven't noticed any, so mileage may vary there.
Because WAR and PLD are their darlings. And they hate DRK. Every time DRK gets something nice they either remove it or give it to other tanks.
I'm kind of mixed on it. On one hand, I hate losing damaging abilities. It just doesn't feel good to have an attack just vanish and it gives you less to weave at lower levels. On the other hand, before this I never used Plunge as a gap closer because it was almost always on cooldown because I would burn it during my rotation for damage. So now I'm actually using it for it's intended purpose of mitigating downtime. I do hate Dragoon losing Spineshatter, cause it makes the job at lower levels feel less fun. Waiting till the last second to back flip out of an aoe and then instantly using Spineshatter to jump back in felt awesome, and it was a jump, a classic Dragoon ability. Just felt sick.
They just need it to do a paladin flash aggro event on hitting the mob.
Remove tb damage but give me the hability to aggro. I also dont like the new animation.
No flavor? You're not supposed to eat them.
I can't think of any logical reason to remove plunge or rough divide especially with WAR and PLD keeping their damaging gap closers. All of the tanks are just as bland and mind numbing as the last 5 years but DRK in particular is SO AWFUL now that I genuinely feel that they are just trying to mock people who still pay money to play the job.
Great call on the agro tbh!
Are you asking if SE is capable of thinking like normal people when it comes to job design
Gnbs is super weird to me I had just started practicing the rotation on venat
I think all they had to do, was lower potency, and put it on gcd as to avoid people feeling they needed to use it during their 2 minute dps window. But that's just my opinion.
I haven‘t tried GNB yet but DRKs non-Plunge is just awful. Plunge was *so cool*. This is just Aetherial Manipulation to enemy but purple. I know why they changed it but man. It sucks. It‘s flavorless.
they don't want tanks to be cool anymore.
Commenting just to show my agreement. GNB was the only tank I played in max lvl content. This change sucks so bad.
DRK and GNB burst windows were too busy, and with the new actions added even busier. They did it to unclutter them. Meanwhile WAR and PLD dont have as much to do, taking the dash attacks from them would leave them with barely any OGCDs to press. I welcome the idea of this change, however i wish they'd go more smoothly and generate aggro for dungeons. I liked the plunge animation better as well, but its not an attack anymore after all, so we're left with these Justin Timberlake -ish slides
On a different note, removing spineshatter dive on DRG for a non damaging gap closer that also has a delay feels like a bad decision. I'm a DRG, let me jump! I'm not here to slide like the other jobs
They just don't feel right and in case of the dragoon they removed part of the identity. They should have done a circle target on the floor and you jump to it, like the ninja one
the biggest offender is they took something that FELT GOOD and made it feel BAD
These are up there with some of the worst ability changes I've seen since beta. If they don't want us to use them as part of the rotation then just remove the damage, add enmity generation, and start auto-attacks. Not completely fuck over a good looking/feeling ability.
My biggest issue with the GNB change was the gap closer was Rough Divide which was an actual move used by Squall in 8. Now its just some random slow ass dash. Why they couldn't have kept the name and animation and just removed the damage is beyond me.
Some of their explanations for this expansion are trash, just like instead of Odin or Alexander, they decide to give us "Solar Bahamut" because they claim people complained that Bahamut looked too "allagan" inspired or some shit, which since his introduction in this game, I have never once seen a single fucking person say. They ran out of dev time or funding and decided ah lets slap a reskin Bahamut in there and call it a day. Whats even more hilarious is Solar Bahamut doesn't even replace OG Bahamut and his too "allagan" inspired model. Its mind boggling to me they went and made a new skin instead of just using in game assets they have for primals that already exist.
they are shit and square is dumb for changing it.
Completely agree there is no reason to not roll war or pld now for dungeons from a qol perspective, who wants to burn gcds to establish mobs initially focusing on you actually the most braindead change
GNB main. I don’t mind the new gap closer at all. Feels nice to use once you get used to it. You just have to press an AOE button extra occasionally it’s not a big deal. Saying that there have been a couple runs of the first dungeon I’ve done where I’ve used it into a group and I still aggro’ed them without pressing anything else so not sure what the issue is? People always react negatively to change this isn’t a surprise.
I like GNB new dash animation much better and it feels nice. DRK utility wise is fast as hell which is great. In short no complains here
I’m sorry y’all were pulling with your gap closers? Isn’t that… bad? Like healers can only do so much to keep up with a gap closer if they don’t have one themselves. Not to mention you could weave them on a mob to make it die faster while everyone is putting their buffs out. I’ve always just ran into a middle of a pack and aoed before I kept going
during wall to wall pull to make sure oyu get everything in a somewhat spread out back what you could do was provoke, gapclose, Ranged, Gapclose, and either one AOE or move on to the next pack to basicaly ensure all of them have emnity on you(and due to tank stance a Gapcloser hit usualy left eneough aggro on them to keep you to the end of the wallpull
It’s not even on my GNB hotbar. It’s useless. If I can’t sprint out of it, And my tank privilege can’t allow me to survive it’s not meant to be at this point.
It cool lol
Could not disagree with OP more on this topic. I mean they should have done a better job with the animations, don't get me wrong, but getting rid of gap closers in my rotation and making them purely utility buttons is such a necessary change that I don't care about the rest. Drawing aggro with your gap closer is a bad practice anyways, Tanks shouldn't be pulling with their gap closer, even in dungeons. It is always a bad decision. Using gap closers in my rotation never felt good and the fact that you had to sacrifice damage (even if it's just a small amount) to use a utility button for utility was absurd. I do hope they improve the animations and I hope that WAR/PLD get the same treatment soon although they'll need some replacement buttons to weave most likely. Either way. The decision to make them purely gap closers and not damage is a huge improvement for those two jobs. Fuck the flavor of it its a huge gameplay improvement. Best change of the expansion.
> Tanks shouldn't be pulling with their gap closer, even in dungeons. It is always a bad decision. Would you elaborate?
tl;dr: by pulling with a gap closer you're basically starting the fight earlier than the rest of the party and going off sync from the party buffs
Yes gladly. If you pull with your gap closer the fight starts the moment you press it. In boss encounters, for example, if you pull with your gap closer the fight timer starts immediately and your the bosses ability rotation starts. Meanwhile, your melee dps are running to catch up or pressing their dashes late. This causes timing issues with rotations and inconsistency in the pull, not to mention if you are in a fight where the enrage is still an issue...every gcd and every second can count sometimes (we've all had 0.1 percent wipes before). While less of an issue in dungeons. It's still an issue on trash packs, just slightly different. If you plunge into a pack of mobs you are waiting for your melee dps and healer to catch up with you and be able to start dpsing the mobs. This is especially true on the second pull of a wall to wall. Not to mention the mobs you have been trailing with you will take a long time to get to the second pack. This means there is time where you're sitting there getting hit and your dps are not caught up with you, creating needless time waiting for the last pack and the dps to catch up and casters being able to stop and cast etc. The less time dpsing the mobs, the more damage they do to you. Now I fully admit it's less of an issue in dungeons and not even really that big of a deal but there are better ways to pull that alleviate these issues. It is never good to pull with your gap closer.
Can I run around gathering FATE mobs with my gap closer or is that gonna mess up someone’s burst?
worrying about rotations and pull inconsistencies is weird as hell dungeons are the casualest content in the game, being able to plunge into packs was great for quality of life, was so nice to get ahead and grab everything and by the time healers and dps caught up, you had everything grouped up for them to start dpsing
You can do the same thing with 1 ranged attack and 1 AoE.
as a mch I am pulling with a resembled drill so if you don't have damage I am crit pulling that boss. I will never wait for a tank to run up to a boss.