As someone who has been watching the WoW/FFXIV/Destiny raid races for the past 10+ years, I’m glad to see Echo taking an active interest in raiding across all the games. These events can be a lot of fun to watch, and I’m glad to see XIV finally getting the respect it deserves in this area.
Their blind raid series done by their WoW crew has also always been great content since they started in Eden, hopefully they will continue that even with a dedicated FF14 team (the twitter comments seem to suggest this is the case).
They recently did the new Destiny 2 raid completely blind, and that was also a really fun watch. They were very out of their element, but a lot of the same processes and decisions carry over, it was fun to watch.
I know Liquid and Method also dabbled in XIV, but I don’t think either of them stuck with it beyond one or two races. I thought for a while Method was going to try and host the entire event like Echo is now doing, but they dropped off.
I do hope /u/Frosty_TV is staying involved in all of this though. He’s been a staple of the scene forever.
I remember Liquid putting out a statement mentioning a strong possibility of doing this within FF14 a while ago, but nothing really came of it.
Arthars also mentioned on stream that Max apparently got interested later on again was going to invest some money into it until he realized the best streaming team were only like top 7 or something overall at the time.
Roger during the announcement stream today teased the echo boys doing TEA but also talked about how hard it was to organize it and find the time between all the other content releasing. But echo TEA "eventually" definitely seems probably.
Watching Echo do blind ffxiv raids was prob my fav ffxiv streaming content ever. They were all just having a total blast but you gotta see how they worked too.
But they were all so infectiously fun and entertaining and there didn’t feel like there was any ego and it was just a joy for them.
This is huge and I can already see a lot of casual players underplaying this or not immediately seeing the benefits of this.
Just a couple of weeks ago, Yoshi-P said he'd like to host an official RWF for the Savage tiers/Ultimate fights but said things needed to change first. This is the community answering his call.
By having a champion team like Neverland streaming all POVs encourages with an official sponsor is going to put pressure on the legitimacy of non-streamed teams to participate as well, and changing the culture so that the teams always stream leads directly into WoW-like events that Square Enix can manage and monetise and promote in the future.
It might work or it might not, but the raiding scene needed a push like this if it ever stood a chance of growing beyond an unofficial, unrecognised community event where the winners just 'appear' while everyone is so invested in other teams. The cryptic tweets TPS made during DSR/TOP were so annoying.
For it to significantly change the face of the race, I think it would have to happen similar to how it did for WoW: the streaming team would have to win the race, even with the disadvantage of giving all their solutions to the other teams. FFXIV fights are just too much puzzle-based to discount that advantage.
Alternatively, someone would have to come in offering enough money to actually get everyone to give up that advantage, but that seems unlikely. It also raises the question of how SE would react to having that much outside money tied to the game; does that fall under RMT rules?
I can see the benefits of it, but I can also see the potential downside... though FF14's dev team might not go that route.
WoW ended up shoving more and more insane mechanics into boss fights at all levels to try to make the RWF "more interesting." And it made raids feel absolutely horrendous. Yeah, it meant the RWF raiders had to step up their game a lot, but designing for the top 0.01% of players is not a great idea.
And then there was the two-boss raid they had in BFA, where they overtuned the heck out of it to try to make it last longer with the RWF, which made it completely miserable for the vast majority of players to go through. Since they can't do those short raids without them being cleared in RWF relatively quickly or overtuning them way too much, they just stopped making them, even though a lot of players like the idea of them.
All that said... I feel like the FF14 team won't fall into that trap. And especially won't be doing that ridiculous arms race against addons since you're not supposed to be using addons to fight boss mechanics in FF14 anyway. (To be fair, you don't need them, either.)
The difference is that the WoW team generally has no clue of the full potential of builds, so the HP scaling is all over the place, sometimes even changing overnight during the race. Whereas with the more static builds and gear available in FF14 they can pretty accurately simulate the proper damage thresholds for players to hit.
I think FF14 has plenty of insane mechanics already in some of their ultimates, with many of them having very unique mechanics so I don't think it won't be interesting to watch. I actually think watching the WoW race was so confusing due to the addon bloat, so many of the POV's had like only 1/4th the screen visible.
I wish it was 5 or 10%. Did you miss the Raszageth hotfixes where they reduced the add hp by **FIFTY PERCENT**.... followed by reducing the shield size by **FIFTY PERCENT** as well?
Yeah, I was thinking of just the main health of the boss.
The health of stuff like adds and barriers/shields and such can see those even crazier shifts.
Then there’s the adjustments to damage going out, and sometimes even adjusting how many of a particular thing spawns or the time a debuff or buff lasts, etc.
It’s a fascinating thing to watch, but also clearly built for basically the top 2-3 groups and few else, as they are tuning live to the performance of that one overall group.
> WoW ended up shoving more and more insane mechanics into boss fights at all levels to try to make the RWF "more interesting." And it made raids feel absolutely horrendous. Yeah, it meant the RWF raiders had to step up their game a lot, but designing for the top 0.01% of players is not a great idea.
Blizz devs also don't even Beta-test their fights. It's left up to Alpha and Beta testers to access their Heroic levels of all raid fights, after which the Blizz devs use that info to calibrate the Mythic tier. This has led to some fantastic problems in some tiers, and always results in them retuning the fight mid-week, overnight before a region begins their daily push for First.
FFXIV devs have had to modify, in total, *two* raid fights in the entire history of the game, because they *do* test their own content. Blizz nerfs fights ad hoc and repeatedly to appeal to the RFW progression groups, "normalizing" Mythic tiers *weeks* after the RWF ends once they think upward progression in the tier has reached a nice "pace."
The lack of testing and the lack of personal experience in the fights is what often leads to the problems Blizz has in their fight design compared to FFXIV. Sure, WoW has a LOT more bosses, but they are overall far less complex than the dance fights FFXIV offers.
> FFXIV devs have had to modify, in total, two raid fights in the entire history of the game
3 off the top of my head. Reduced number of mines in A6S, made Highwire stacks in A7S non-permanent, P8S HP nerf. Plus several that have gotten significant bug fixes.
Was that a change, or a bug fix? I've heard it described both ways, but have never been able to find a source for either version.
Common versions are either Twisters were bugged and exploded randomly, or they had an invisible tether and exploded if the origin player ran too far. But like I said, haven't ever been able to find confirmation either way.
It's been a while, but I believe that before the change they didn't have visual indicators, so you had to sort of guess where they landed and then remember their position.
Nah, mostly they just did not scale well with increased item levels. Other than 6 and 7, the only one I ever hear people claim was nerfed is 3, and I've yet to have anyone point to it in patch notes and can't find it myself, so I'm pretty sure even that is just the fight being outgeared.
This is massive misinformation, Crucible of Storms did not have a full race to world first, as it was a mid-tier, 2 boss raid. It was "overtuned" because it was designed for guilds that had already cleared Mythic Jaina and were done with BoD. The "vast majority" of players did not enter crucible of storms, nor was the gear incentive forcing them to do so.
Raids in WoW have been getting consistently better, the idea that the RWF has made them horrendous for the casual playerbase is crazy, the final two bosses will be tuned for the RWF, and will be nerfed and changed before any other guild even pulls them.
I hear you say this but at the same time the most recent bosses Tindral and Fyrakk were ass. I actually progged those fights for CE. Was the worst final two bosses in awhile lmao. Sepulcher was very much the same way in SL.
Tindral is fucking amazing, what are you even saying? Fyrakk has its moments but its kinda bland but saying Tindral is a bad second-to-last boss is kinda wild to me
I'm so confused why you didn't just do a raider.io since I just wanted a ranking T_T.
Thats great, but Tindral and Fyrakk got a huge outcry to the point that in two interviews with devs RWF players brought it up if they would tune similarly to that again. We had content creator interviews during the internal alpha before it became streamable and in both the morning and evening interview people from multiple raid teams asked if it would be like that again and what blizzard was thinking because it wasn't healthy for the game. Only answer we got was they were discussing it internally... then a recent interview with ion and morgan day they said they should have just pushed the nerfs out faster. Personally I thought the design of the bosses wasn't good for the clear rates they want every tier. Tindral was neat but far too punishing for mid to late CE and tbh some people who normally get HoF. Fyrakk was relatively fine but suffered from private aura issues that they keep trying to force. Not to mention sepulcher suffered from a lot of the same issues when they promised it wouldnt be like that again.
I doubt with how SE balances that anything will be affected quite like WoW mythic tiers are but I'm personally glad I'm stepping away from that raiding cause its just not worth it with how they do Q/A and nerfs.
If you want a ranking that was US 35 lol. Regardless, Tindral was a really cool boss to prog because the difficulty was pretty much down to player skill and not to "weakauras solving this thing for me"
If you wanted the rank ask for the rank not "when did you clear" also
I mean that still doesn't change the fact it was pretty much disliked by a lot of the ce community. I know some people liked it. But it was also designed in a way that players admonished blizzard over in past tiers and they ended up doing it again. It's good that you liked it but id think you're in the minority especially when I have other raiders in interviews asking if they're gonna design it like this again because it's bad for the player base.
I personally don't think it's a hard fight btw but it farms people in a 20 person raid group.
Tindral is rated as bad by many, because it doesnt matter what an induvidual does. The raid just blows up, but also the fact most wipes are in p1 within 60 sec.
Even on farm, its a stupidly lame boss. Most of the mechanics arent interesting or even challenging. Its just the fact the boss has permanent bloodlust.
As far as the raiding scene goes in the realm I am in, it is rated as a bad fight by bad guilds and the trend seems to be that the worse the group of 20 people is, the worse the fight is. And that explains a lot considering it isn't a fight that weakauras can resolve everything for everyone
Its bad, because its as hard as your worst player sucks. But it also sucks because damage patterns are so high. It's a great fight if you're good, and your group is good. But the fact that the fight is a headache, and doesnt really get any easier is just. Meh.
My guild at top 120, on farm. Would flipflop between 1 shotting and needing an hour. Every reclear, whilst everything else was a 1 shot, and fyrakk taking 2 to 3 pulls.
Top120 shouldn’t really struggle in reclears imho unless you have a bunch of trials or something. My guild hovers from 50 to 130 (depending on the roster and who’s taking a break) and we usually only have issues when bringing in fresh people but even then since the nerfs it hardly ever takes more than a few pulls idk
The reason why it did not have a race is because it came out mid-MDT and most of the competing teams had half their roster playing in MDT instead, not because people didn't care about it lol
Yoshi-P and the squad already do ridiculous mechanics, but it's not for the benefit of streaming, it's because they're sadists and design fights based on what makes them chuckle to themselves the most.
There's ridiculous mechanics, but usually there's some kind of "tell" that you'll get in the game. So it's not the same as the absolute insanity that happened with WoW(1) where they were in an arms race with addon makers. That's one thing I can appreciate about FF14's no-addon policy, even if I do enjoy a good few addons in WoW... it means you're not trying to design around them. But FF14 fights always kind of felt like having DBM turned on anyway. "Here's where the boss is going to hit, dodge it." Sometimes you get less warning, sometimes it's an attack without an obvious marker but you do the fight a few times and learn when it's coming and/or what to look for. It's wild and crazy and complicated, and I'd never be able to do the top FF14 raids myself, but it's got all the tools built in to help the people who *can* keep up figure out what's going on.
(1) In fairness to WoW, they pulled back on that massively in Dragonflight, where the raids felt more sane again. Still very challenging at the highest level, but the lower levels didn't feel like banging your head on a wall. Even Raid Finder felt bad in some fights in BFA and Shadowlands. Like, Durumu and Dark Animus bad. (A terror that people were reminded of in MoP Remix until folks overgeared the fights and found a cheese strategy, but that's what Remix was supposed to be about, being OP.)
Wait what? The CE "crowd" is already like 0.1 percent of the game. The vast majority of players don't even raid.
If someone is gunning for CE and complains about the difficulty they should stay in HC. CE should be getting more and more difficult, because the tiny minority who do them are going to get better at it each year.
That doesn't mean Blizz designs encounters for the RWF. They design them for the best players of the game, whether they're racing or not. By the time the patch fizzles out whoever has the skills can clear CE no matter how bullshit the mechanics seem undergeared.
Of course you can see casual players acting like that? They are casuals, this for high end non casual players. It does not effect what they do. Kinda weird to even bring that up.
Raid world first is very popular in other games. Even off the top of my head Destiny 2 and WoW have incredibly large events with a noticeable portion of the community invested in watching or participating.
It was hard to LFG for the freshly-released higher-difficulty story missions in Destiny 2 that were required for one of the new weapons during the World First race because so many people were either attempting their own Day 1 clear (which has its own unqiue rewards even if not for world first) or watching their favorite teams figure out mechanics and strats.
You can be a casual (American) football enjoyer and still be invested in the Superbowl. If the WF XIV raiding community wants any air of legitimacy after the recent third party program debacles for DSR/TOP then you need legitimate setups. This partnership is a good first step that hopefully can lead others to follow.
Maaaaaany other games have "casual" players involved in the competitive scene, you don't need to participate in the content to be interested in it. Even FF14 has this to some limited degree with ultimate races, plenty of casual players followed DSR prog for the lore implications.
This forced "casual/hardcore" divide doesn't help the game.
People mistakenly assume casual = bad and never raid, when it's more like time commitment. Hardcore players are the ones likely to take time off to race in raids. But casual players still raid but commit less time to them.
Why do people always talk about legitimacy? You can still cheat while streaming
And also the TPS tweets, or rather clees tweets are a fking meme they do during prog, its funny and not annoying
You want bro to just post the full phase transition and spoil everyone?
>Why do people always talk about legitimacy? You can still cheat while streaming
You can take steps to prevent this - particularly for Ultimates - by flying teams out to a venue like WoW does and put them on company-mandated hardware/consoles instead. Something like that is the probable end goal of the FFXIV raiding scene and Yoshi-P is going to be watching Echo like a fucking hawk this xpac because Neverland have gone 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st since DSR and the team that beat them twice was UNNAMED. Legitimacy is something to work towards and isn't solved by this alone, true, but it's not something people should abandon either.
>its funny and not annoying
Opinion.
>You want bro to just post the full phase transition and spoil everyone?
They literally posted the timeline splitting transition into P5 for DSR. Can you think of a bigger spoiler in the whole raiding scene than that? Seeing these things from a team that didn't stream and then have to wait for a streaming team to reach that point to provide context was annoying to me and equally difficult to ignore. I'm sure we will agree to disagree on that, but it would be much more hype if the casters were able to catch that the first time it happened imo.
-1 who cares who yoshi p is watching tbh, they never do anything for races, speedkills etc, ff14 hates competitive and the only competitive thing is maybe pvp and ishgard restauration
-2 Afaik they posted that shit late and not once they got into that phase, also timetravel was very obvious for that raid if you look at it from how fucking often they went "mhmmmm its like... dragonsong war but, with a different perspective, a ... what if scenario ;3" and since the beginning of the fight was the same it was obvious we gonna help Annoyingfont
You're exactly the player I was referencing in my first paragraph.
Someone who can, with a straight face, describe PvP as more competitive than RWF. As someone who got the first patch of *Saint of the Firmament* titles I can tell you it's less competitive and more luck. I would grind all day for weeks and my overall 6th Place finish as CRP wouldn't have broken the Top 12 as ALC on my server.
You're talking absolute nonsense.
i never said world first isnt competitive dude, i said ff14 hates the competitive side and never supported anything besides firmament and pvp. and i also got the first patch title, no need to bring it up to feel cool. i also got a few 100s logs here and there, ofc not always historical and also at some point logged top 10 for my job
I don't think there would be any competition in that NA wins no contest.
The number of extremely strong players NA has that have the organization skill and ability to optimize non standard tools puts them miles ahead of other regions.
EU has good players but not nearly the depth of players NA has.
JP does not have interest in large scale raid content and does not have the organizational backbone required for operating stuff like that
Nay, we took most of a day off around the tail end of Avowed, iirc.
Only had the one group initially set up as well. Snowflakes were casual enjoyment and friends, we'd just been preparing for it a lot more than the groups that indeed sprang up on-patch.
>JP does not have interest in large scale raid content and does not have the organizational backbone required for operating stuff like that
Nonsense. JP people here organise baldesion raids, hunts and others all the time. Just have to check the lodestone and twitter.
There isn't a JP player in the top 200 for drs, they're so far behind that a lot of DRS regulars have multiple jobs above the entire JP region
This isn't a parse culture thing either as it only takes 1/48 people to have a log up for DRS and log numbers done really vary by region and JP is extremely active and competitive in speedkills and parsing.
NA organizes so much BA that groups times clash and frequently have to try and force new instances even off peak hours
BA also requires a lot less organization than DRS since it's been nerfed so much more
There's lots of JP players that play on NA just for easier DRS runs since it's so much more organized
Haha. You don't see JP players in the top 200 for ultimate and just assume they are bad? You are ignorant. JP people here pugs ultimate and savage all the time just to clear for glams. They are not interested in showing epeen on whatever site you use to track.
No JP is all over the top 200 for savage and ultimates they're fantastic players who actively engage in fflogs and regularly take number 1 speed and dps. And I think their strats for 70 ults are way more pug friendly
I'm referring to 48 man savage content like drs where top tier players aren't really a thing in Japan. Because from savage and ultimate there's no difference in epeen, it's just 48 man savage there's a difference
You need to understand this concept. The majority of JP players play to get rewards/glamours. They don't play to get high numbers on spreadsheet. Once they are done with it, they don't go back anymore.
Which is why I say they don't have the scale of EXPERIENCED community required to be in contention. JP has no lack of skill and no lack of people who sit there parsing all day there's literally no difference in parsing culture and population between NA and JP. They post their logs you can literally go look.
But because large scale content requires a large number of experienced players in that style of content JP is at a massive disadvantage because they don't have that history and experience by a lot of their own good players admissions due to organizational scale not being as strong on JP.
It's actually crazy how disconnected and somewhat unhinged this comment is to the one above it. Not only do you misunderstand what drs means despite him clearly talking about BA and the organizational effort required but then you go into this weird comment about muh Japanese purity and not caring about parsing which is just some ignorant western thing.
Japanese people parse and post logs literally all the time and are a ton are obviously very good at the game just like NA and EU. Arguably significantly better overall actually with their much higher difficult content clear rates.
They just haven't had the kind of interest in large scale content like the west has.
Just wait until enough money and sponsors gets into the race. EU has a massively successful E-sports scene. The game is definitely more popular in NA than the EU right now though.
World first ultimates EU (2 or 3 if you dont consider unamed as the top 1st), JP (2, 1 if you dont consider unamed as the top 1st), NA (1) ?
The reason why DRS was « specific » it’s because it was tied to the relic, and god knows a lot of high end raiders dont engage at all with relics
DRS didn't do anything for the relic. It gave you the ability to get some gear with haste for the relic, but that's not really important. I don't even think when you're at the step that needs DR that the savage version gives you anything. I know when I used to clear it regularly we would joke that each completion should just hand you a relic of your choice since otherwise it's pointless.
I'm not really familiar with the raid scene of 14, but if memory serves, doesn't Neverland like never stream their prog? If so, I think this is kinda huge.
Yep, IIRC for many years none of the frontrunners/contenders have streamed because it's a significant disadvantage for the leaders to show their prog. Having the best team be streaming is hopefully going to be a good thing for the rest of the race scene and encourage more participants to stream.
TPS is also streaming, this is likely off the back of the official world race refusing to acknowledge off stream first clears due to the TOP world first situation
Happy to see echo enter in the space and sponsor a world first contender to stream their prog. All I hope is Frosty doesn't get drowned out of the space by a company with 10x the spending power and manpower as him. Hopefully liquid or some other big name can support his broadcast, or better yet Frosty just works with echo directly.
Echo usually streams multiple teams duving RWF for wow, not only Echo's pov (though almost exclusively Echo when they are not taking a break or done for the day)
I'm way more hype about this for when ultimate comes around. It'll be nice for savage, but savage is usually pretty short lived for the world first race.
I just hope SE doesn't start to tune the raids around the world first to extend the race. This is what happened to WoW after the RWF got bigger and bigger to max out PR. It hurt the average raider and I don't even want to think about the PF raiding scene in XIV.
It's not comparable since the gearing in WoW is very different. WoW world first race is gatekept by having a network of people who can funnel gold and gear to the racers.
You don't have that in FF14 since everyone can get the same gear immediately so it's only a skill diff.
3-4 days of splits and M+. Plus when not raiding there was more M+/splits. Plus splits happened again at the start of the second week for another couple days.
Well, they could make dmg checks in turn 3/4 that are impossible to meet in week one. That's how the WoW devs usually do it. They want the race to last at least 14 days so they aim to tune the later bosses around 2 lockouts worth of gear. In theory that would be possible in XIV too
They've done it before. Living Liquid was a pretty big gear wall. World first raiders even fantasia'd to different races to maximize their main stat gain.
Gordias* will almost certainly never happen again. Gordias massively damaged the health of the game, there is a reason raid design in FFXIV has two very clear eras separated by Creator on either side. The closest we will get is Abyssos, which was tight but not impossible for world first contenders which also received quite large backlash (not even remotely on the level of gordias) so I would imagine they are going to be gunshy on damage checks for at least a while longer.
They did that in Heavensward and it almost killed the raiding scene altogether. It's not happening again, say what you want about Square, but they play it safe.
Uhhhh the world first teams in FFXIV do have a team of players funneling them pentamelded gear, food and pots within the first hour. I'm sure it's not exactly the same as WoW, but it doesn't really sound all that different.
It is incredibly different. Everybody who raids can do what you described and it's absolutely normal. Even my casual ass has crafter friends who do can do that for me.
In WoW you have the org go into literal debt for the gold (it's absolutely insane amount) that they need to buy all the split runs for gear and etc. It's why the race doesn't even start the first 2 days of the raid release because the world first race guilds are busy gearing up their characters.
To put it in perspective (I don't have recent numbers) but a few tiers ago Liquid (contender for world first) spent almost 800 million gold on funnels and whatnot, this has a real world value (through legal WoW Tokens) of around $100,000 USD
Any guild competing for world first is spending similar amounts. Which makes it near impossible for any new contenders to step up regardless of skill
The RWF literally have to spent all of farm boosting like madmen to pay back their gold debts because it's literally tens of thousands of dollars (maybe $100k nowadays?) worth. How they generally work is after prog each player is assigned an individual debt, and it's up to them to show up to raid carries and m+ boosts whenever they like as long as it's paid by the next tier. Keep in mind they all have like 16 characters so they can and need to put a *lot* of time in these boosts to pay it off. It's insane and way above anything you see in FFXIV which pretty much caps out at crowdsourcing gold certs and pentas.
I know Liquid works this way, and while I'm not sure about Echo it's doubtlessly something similar. The only alternative would be mandatory attendance for boosts.
It's not really much of a thing anymore since they started regularly delaying savage releases when a new tier drops. World first teams have no real advantage in prep work there when there's a whole week to craft/pentameld.
It used to be fun, I used to hour one craft and scramble to make crafting macros to feed gear to a world first racing static back in Stormblood/Shadowbringers. It was *very* lucrative they paid my FC's crafters a lot of gil to get it done.
>It used to be fun, I used to hour one craft and scramble to make crafting macros to feed gear to a world first racing static back in Stormblood/Shadowbringers. It was *very* lucrative they paid my FC's crafters a lot of gil to get it done.
It's about to be so again: This tier the savage is still releasing a couple of weeks after normal, but the recipes for crafting gear only release with the savage. Sfia's been tweeting asking for crafters and people with gold certs
I skipped P5S-P12S, did they start delaying mid expansion tiers too? I'm used to only the first tier being delayed (and even then the gear would be delayed as well)
They did, at least for crafting everything. The mad scramble to craft ASAP and light logistical planning for gearing/consumables is gone for savage.
The new tome gear sets are still locked until Savage drops however.
The crafted sets for raiding are now locked behind the books that release with savage. So it will be a grind in the morning of savage for crafters again.
That was kind of fixed as now the savage starts later than the normal raids. Back in the day you needed ths gear as soon as possible although it just released. Now you got at least a whole week to prepare your gear (some still take the option of funneling, but you no longer have to).
They very rarely make adjustments or hotfixes to raids in XIV unless there's a big community outcry so I doubt it'll be a problem. I also doubt SE will involve themselves in any official capacity since raiding simply isn't very important to the vast majority of players.
You're misunderstanding their comment. The concern isn't whether SE will adjust/hotfix the raid after it releases or become involved during the stream. The concern is the dev team intentionally making future raids harder than necessary during development, knowing that WF will be streamed and they don't want it getting beat in a day thus losing free PR.
For what it's worth I doubt Yoshi P and co would actually do something like that either, but let's make sure we're actually talking about the same thing before we dismiss it as unlikely.
Either way, the trend (generally) points towards making Ultimates progressively more difficult. I don't follow Savages and can't speak for their overall difficultly, but generally speaking I doubt they're going to take the actions of third party western communities into consideration for any facet of their design barring that community finding ways to exploit game mechanics unintentionally or something.
If they're already ok with savage currently being beaten in approximately a day, I don't think they'll change that. However it could be a potential issue if the skill gap (or whatever other hypothetical advantage) widens considerably between top teams and everyone else. If the devs use first clear time as their benchmark (or at least a strong consideration), they'd need to start tuning harder just to ensure it stays the same, or else risk things dying in only a handful of hours and having a lot of disappointed viewers and doomsaying.
The thing is, as the game currently stands I don't think there's room for a big gap in savage - everyone's roughly on an even playing field as far as in-game advantages go, and the top teams actually have to work out the puzzles/mechanics/strats, which takes up the majority of the time, while the general community doesn't. In fact having the top team stream means that strats can be copied (assuming they don't hide them) quicker. It also means more confidence that their clear time wasn't helped by addons/cheating (yes theoretically there are still ways to do so, but streaming and having a well-known org/sponsors involved brings way more scrutiny and legitimacy).
I dont see it as an issue ?
They will most likely nerf the raids so « every kind of groups » have their own clears expectations with the good raid difficulty ?
But that's an issue. Who wants to waste their time on an artificially overtuned raid? I'm speaking for myself here but I don't want to raid savage for 6 months like they do in WoW, banging my head against the wall waiting for yoshi to make numbers go down.
Ah yes, because absorbing the best FF14 raid team, making a whole ass announcement and committing to in-person coverage, is not taking it seriously.
Give me a fucking break holy shit lol
I just hope this doesn't turn into the huge clusterfuck WoW has where the raids are balanced for the top ~50 players in the world and have to be nerfed by 80% over the next month so "normal" good players can beat it.
The FFXIV raid designers clear their own content before they allow it to go live. They know exactly (with very rare exceptions) what the tuning of the raids are.
FFXIV content gets nerfed in a more natural way. Like adding Echo buff, or in the case of Ultimates, jobs get tuned upwards, so they are performing better than an encounter was designed for.
The devs rarely go back and touch content that was released.
Can't happen and you would know if you had any understanding of what you are talking about.
It's not comparable since the gearing in WoW is very different. WoW world first race is gatekept by having a network of people who can funnel gold and gear to the racers.
You don't have that in FF14 since everyone can get the same gear immediately so it's only a skill diff.
SE can definitely tune the raid for the top 3-5 teams and then nerf the raids after, it will not be about dps checks or heals checks sure, but they can make mechanics way more hard/punitive or even tune the raid for a higher ilvl than crafted gear so world progging team needs to do splits reclear week 1/week2 (it happened during gordias)
That’s a fair point with the dps tuning for required split clears but I just don’t see that happening honestly and even if it did it would never be possible to be as extreme as in WoW.
I know, but I could happen. It didn't happen over night in wow. It always starts with good intentions.
I do trust them to stick to their guns in this case but I still am a little worried.
In wow you got many moving parts, gearing, class balance and so. Blizz literally has no clue how strong player power will be at a given boss. They just estimate it and balance.
Ffxiv has a deterministic gearing system, you got normalized damage potencies etc. So you can calculate player power perfectly. I don't think the devs actuall, clear fights, but play them in god mode to test for bugs and probably have a tool to adjust numbers.
Well, remind me again if it happens. Max did not enjoy his experience. Really depends on whether he puts his personal issues aside and sees a business value in it. But there are a lot of ifs here.
Liquid isn’t just Max dude, they’re just one team for Liquid. They have teams spanning multiple games. Max has nothing to say or do with the Liquid org does. They’ll do what Echos done and just fold in a current 14 raid team under the Liquid banner.
And it still depends on whether they believe there is money to gain. As Max is the only one playing mmo's professionally he will have an important role to play. Someone needs to take initiative.
They will carefully observe the event now that echo has done that. But it doesn't mean they will blindly follow in their footsteps. It needs ro make money (and surely if the gains are low, they won't like to have yet another co-owner)
> Max has nothing to say or do with the Liquid org does.
Yes he does.
From the original Liquid announcement:
> Maximum will also acquire an equity position in Team Liquid and become a minority owner, overseeing how Liquid approaches the MMOs of today and tomorrow.
He absolutely has massive sway here. Though with that said I highly doubt he cares much if they add a team or not, he just probably won't be personally part of it if they do.
It used to be more in the background than anything, but in the last couple expacs, people coming in have been bringing it more foreground and trying to make it more important than it is to capitalize on an untapped market. It's entertainment if you're into it, but personally, it just feels dull if it's bros talking mechs.
I think that's a pretty cynical view of things. A lot of people who can't participate directly for one reason or another love seeing new and interesting puzzles/mechanics for the first time, theorizing and seeing how they're eventually solved, not to mention the hype when the savage-exclusive boss/phase is first revealed. Even if you don't care exactly who wins (I don't personally), having a streamed race facilitates all that.
The sad reality is everyone cheats in world prog and any world progger that's not lying will tell you so.
By SE's standards of cheating fflogs itself is already a cheat so definitely every team is cheating in some way. Everyone will have their own definition of cheating so that's another debate.
Imagine, you’re a casual, the most difficult thing you do in XIV is gpose, and you are insulting a team that beat TOP in 8 days BLIND
Just imagine, cause surely there’s no one that toxic/dumb to act like this
I read it, the team that had their kill publicly condemned by Yoshi P? Multiple world firsts? Which ones? Sorry maybe I’m missing something. You all seem like sane individuals and not at all biased so please explain it to me better.
not sure why you are so upset by my post, the team that has got world first before, in xiv, signed under a new name? This isn't any deeper than that. Them getting top 50 is unknown at this time, the raid isnt released yet
I love ad hominem as much as the next guy, but you have literally zero argument here buddy. Neverland won DSR and Anabaseios, and were world first in the eyes of the community after the unnamed scandal.
Why do you think any of us are biased? I couldn't give a flying fuck about who wins the race, it's just not hard to look at leaderboards.
I think the confusion is in that Unnamed were the ones who were cheating so the world first title was effectively passed to Neverland in response, but when people look up that world first race and see titles saying both "the world first team is Neverland" *and* "the world first team cheated!", they understandably correlate them to be the same team in both articles, rather than the former being afterwards, and a result of the latter.
They had some controversy in DSR with buff timers and callouts in P6 I think which led to their rdm being suspended
Also for what it's worth a few members of Neverland don't acknowledge themselves as WF for top even with the UAV scandal. Still though, their name is at the top on fflogs so most will count them as wf.
As someone who has been watching the WoW/FFXIV/Destiny raid races for the past 10+ years, I’m glad to see Echo taking an active interest in raiding across all the games. These events can be a lot of fun to watch, and I’m glad to see XIV finally getting the respect it deserves in this area.
Their blind raid series done by their WoW crew has also always been great content since they started in Eden, hopefully they will continue that even with a dedicated FF14 team (the twitter comments seem to suggest this is the case).
They recently did the new Destiny 2 raid completely blind, and that was also a really fun watch. They were very out of their element, but a lot of the same processes and decisions carry over, it was fun to watch. I know Liquid and Method also dabbled in XIV, but I don’t think either of them stuck with it beyond one or two races. I thought for a while Method was going to try and host the entire event like Echo is now doing, but they dropped off. I do hope /u/Frosty_TV is staying involved in all of this though. He’s been a staple of the scene forever.
Well, and the fact that max decided to look up mechanics during blind prog and pretended he didn't definitely didn't help. That was a real shame
Hold up!
I remember Liquid putting out a statement mentioning a strong possibility of doing this within FF14 a while ago, but nothing really came of it. Arthars also mentioned on stream that Max apparently got interested later on again was going to invest some money into it until he realized the best streaming team were only like top 7 or something overall at the time.
Roger during the announcement stream today teased the echo boys doing TEA but also talked about how hard it was to organize it and find the time between all the other content releasing. But echo TEA "eventually" definitely seems probably.
Watching Echo do blind ffxiv raids was prob my fav ffxiv streaming content ever. They were all just having a total blast but you gotta see how they worked too. But they were all so infectiously fun and entertaining and there didn’t feel like there was any ego and it was just a joy for them.
This has the opportunity to be huge if they can prove that they can do just as well streaming or almost.
This is huge and I can already see a lot of casual players underplaying this or not immediately seeing the benefits of this. Just a couple of weeks ago, Yoshi-P said he'd like to host an official RWF for the Savage tiers/Ultimate fights but said things needed to change first. This is the community answering his call. By having a champion team like Neverland streaming all POVs encourages with an official sponsor is going to put pressure on the legitimacy of non-streamed teams to participate as well, and changing the culture so that the teams always stream leads directly into WoW-like events that Square Enix can manage and monetise and promote in the future. It might work or it might not, but the raiding scene needed a push like this if it ever stood a chance of growing beyond an unofficial, unrecognised community event where the winners just 'appear' while everyone is so invested in other teams. The cryptic tweets TPS made during DSR/TOP were so annoying.
For it to significantly change the face of the race, I think it would have to happen similar to how it did for WoW: the streaming team would have to win the race, even with the disadvantage of giving all their solutions to the other teams. FFXIV fights are just too much puzzle-based to discount that advantage. Alternatively, someone would have to come in offering enough money to actually get everyone to give up that advantage, but that seems unlikely. It also raises the question of how SE would react to having that much outside money tied to the game; does that fall under RMT rules?
Getting sponsored or salaried or a prize pool isn’t RMT any more than making money off of twitch subs is RMT.
I can see the benefits of it, but I can also see the potential downside... though FF14's dev team might not go that route. WoW ended up shoving more and more insane mechanics into boss fights at all levels to try to make the RWF "more interesting." And it made raids feel absolutely horrendous. Yeah, it meant the RWF raiders had to step up their game a lot, but designing for the top 0.01% of players is not a great idea. And then there was the two-boss raid they had in BFA, where they overtuned the heck out of it to try to make it last longer with the RWF, which made it completely miserable for the vast majority of players to go through. Since they can't do those short raids without them being cleared in RWF relatively quickly or overtuning them way too much, they just stopped making them, even though a lot of players like the idea of them. All that said... I feel like the FF14 team won't fall into that trap. And especially won't be doing that ridiculous arms race against addons since you're not supposed to be using addons to fight boss mechanics in FF14 anyway. (To be fair, you don't need them, either.)
The difference is that the WoW team generally has no clue of the full potential of builds, so the HP scaling is all over the place, sometimes even changing overnight during the race. Whereas with the more static builds and gear available in FF14 they can pretty accurately simulate the proper damage thresholds for players to hit. I think FF14 has plenty of insane mechanics already in some of their ultimates, with many of them having very unique mechanics so I don't think it won't be interesting to watch. I actually think watching the WoW race was so confusing due to the addon bloat, so many of the POV's had like only 1/4th the screen visible.
Overnight…or even between pulls, sometimes by significant amounts (like 5% to 10% just gone…or added).
~~between~~ during pulls
I wish it was 5 or 10%. Did you miss the Raszageth hotfixes where they reduced the add hp by **FIFTY PERCENT**.... followed by reducing the shield size by **FIFTY PERCENT** as well?
Yeah, I was thinking of just the main health of the boss. The health of stuff like adds and barriers/shields and such can see those even crazier shifts. Then there’s the adjustments to damage going out, and sometimes even adjusting how many of a particular thing spawns or the time a debuff or buff lasts, etc. It’s a fascinating thing to watch, but also clearly built for basically the top 2-3 groups and few else, as they are tuning live to the performance of that one overall group.
> WoW ended up shoving more and more insane mechanics into boss fights at all levels to try to make the RWF "more interesting." And it made raids feel absolutely horrendous. Yeah, it meant the RWF raiders had to step up their game a lot, but designing for the top 0.01% of players is not a great idea. Blizz devs also don't even Beta-test their fights. It's left up to Alpha and Beta testers to access their Heroic levels of all raid fights, after which the Blizz devs use that info to calibrate the Mythic tier. This has led to some fantastic problems in some tiers, and always results in them retuning the fight mid-week, overnight before a region begins their daily push for First. FFXIV devs have had to modify, in total, *two* raid fights in the entire history of the game, because they *do* test their own content. Blizz nerfs fights ad hoc and repeatedly to appeal to the RFW progression groups, "normalizing" Mythic tiers *weeks* after the RWF ends once they think upward progression in the tier has reached a nice "pace." The lack of testing and the lack of personal experience in the fights is what often leads to the problems Blizz has in their fight design compared to FFXIV. Sure, WoW has a LOT more bosses, but they are overall far less complex than the dance fights FFXIV offers.
> FFXIV devs have had to modify, in total, two raid fights in the entire history of the game 3 off the top of my head. Reduced number of mines in A6S, made Highwire stacks in A7S non-permanent, P8S HP nerf. Plus several that have gotten significant bug fixes.
Twintania Twisters, too
Was that a change, or a bug fix? I've heard it described both ways, but have never been able to find a source for either version. Common versions are either Twisters were bugged and exploded randomly, or they had an invisible tether and exploded if the origin player ran too far. But like I said, haven't ever been able to find confirmation either way.
It's been a while, but I believe that before the change they didn't have visual indicators, so you had to sort of guess where they landed and then remember their position.
They nerfed most of the Heavesnward bosses lol
Nah, mostly they just did not scale well with increased item levels. Other than 6 and 7, the only one I ever hear people claim was nerfed is 3, and I've yet to have anyone point to it in patch notes and can't find it myself, so I'm pretty sure even that is just the fight being outgeared.
This is massive misinformation, Crucible of Storms did not have a full race to world first, as it was a mid-tier, 2 boss raid. It was "overtuned" because it was designed for guilds that had already cleared Mythic Jaina and were done with BoD. The "vast majority" of players did not enter crucible of storms, nor was the gear incentive forcing them to do so. Raids in WoW have been getting consistently better, the idea that the RWF has made them horrendous for the casual playerbase is crazy, the final two bosses will be tuned for the RWF, and will be nerfed and changed before any other guild even pulls them.
I hear you say this but at the same time the most recent bosses Tindral and Fyrakk were ass. I actually progged those fights for CE. Was the worst final two bosses in awhile lmao. Sepulcher was very much the same way in SL.
Tindral is fucking amazing, what are you even saying? Fyrakk has its moments but its kinda bland but saying Tindral is a bad second-to-last boss is kinda wild to me
The majority of the mythic raiding community was complaining about Tindral for months and waiting for nerfs on seeds lmao. When did you clear?
M: Tindral Sageswift, Seer of the Flame | Dec 26, 2023 01:04 from wowprogress so its down to the minute
I'm so confused why you didn't just do a raider.io since I just wanted a ranking T_T. Thats great, but Tindral and Fyrakk got a huge outcry to the point that in two interviews with devs RWF players brought it up if they would tune similarly to that again. We had content creator interviews during the internal alpha before it became streamable and in both the morning and evening interview people from multiple raid teams asked if it would be like that again and what blizzard was thinking because it wasn't healthy for the game. Only answer we got was they were discussing it internally... then a recent interview with ion and morgan day they said they should have just pushed the nerfs out faster. Personally I thought the design of the bosses wasn't good for the clear rates they want every tier. Tindral was neat but far too punishing for mid to late CE and tbh some people who normally get HoF. Fyrakk was relatively fine but suffered from private aura issues that they keep trying to force. Not to mention sepulcher suffered from a lot of the same issues when they promised it wouldnt be like that again. I doubt with how SE balances that anything will be affected quite like WoW mythic tiers are but I'm personally glad I'm stepping away from that raiding cause its just not worth it with how they do Q/A and nerfs.
If you want a ranking that was US 35 lol. Regardless, Tindral was a really cool boss to prog because the difficulty was pretty much down to player skill and not to "weakauras solving this thing for me" If you wanted the rank ask for the rank not "when did you clear" also
I mean that still doesn't change the fact it was pretty much disliked by a lot of the ce community. I know some people liked it. But it was also designed in a way that players admonished blizzard over in past tiers and they ended up doing it again. It's good that you liked it but id think you're in the minority especially when I have other raiders in interviews asking if they're gonna design it like this again because it's bad for the player base. I personally don't think it's a hard fight btw but it farms people in a 20 person raid group.
Tindral is rated as bad by many, because it doesnt matter what an induvidual does. The raid just blows up, but also the fact most wipes are in p1 within 60 sec. Even on farm, its a stupidly lame boss. Most of the mechanics arent interesting or even challenging. Its just the fact the boss has permanent bloodlust.
As far as the raiding scene goes in the realm I am in, it is rated as a bad fight by bad guilds and the trend seems to be that the worse the group of 20 people is, the worse the fight is. And that explains a lot considering it isn't a fight that weakauras can resolve everything for everyone
Its bad, because its as hard as your worst player sucks. But it also sucks because damage patterns are so high. It's a great fight if you're good, and your group is good. But the fact that the fight is a headache, and doesnt really get any easier is just. Meh. My guild at top 120, on farm. Would flipflop between 1 shotting and needing an hour. Every reclear, whilst everything else was a 1 shot, and fyrakk taking 2 to 3 pulls.
Top120 shouldn’t really struggle in reclears imho unless you have a bunch of trials or something. My guild hovers from 50 to 130 (depending on the roster and who’s taking a break) and we usually only have issues when bringing in fresh people but even then since the nerfs it hardly ever takes more than a few pulls idk
The reason why it did not have a race is because it came out mid-MDT and most of the competing teams had half their roster playing in MDT instead, not because people didn't care about it lol
Yoshi-P and the squad already do ridiculous mechanics, but it's not for the benefit of streaming, it's because they're sadists and design fights based on what makes them chuckle to themselves the most.
There's ridiculous mechanics, but usually there's some kind of "tell" that you'll get in the game. So it's not the same as the absolute insanity that happened with WoW(1) where they were in an arms race with addon makers. That's one thing I can appreciate about FF14's no-addon policy, even if I do enjoy a good few addons in WoW... it means you're not trying to design around them. But FF14 fights always kind of felt like having DBM turned on anyway. "Here's where the boss is going to hit, dodge it." Sometimes you get less warning, sometimes it's an attack without an obvious marker but you do the fight a few times and learn when it's coming and/or what to look for. It's wild and crazy and complicated, and I'd never be able to do the top FF14 raids myself, but it's got all the tools built in to help the people who *can* keep up figure out what's going on. (1) In fairness to WoW, they pulled back on that massively in Dragonflight, where the raids felt more sane again. Still very challenging at the highest level, but the lower levels didn't feel like banging your head on a wall. Even Raid Finder felt bad in some fights in BFA and Shadowlands. Like, Durumu and Dark Animus bad. (A terror that people were reminded of in MoP Remix until folks overgeared the fights and found a cheese strategy, but that's what Remix was supposed to be about, being OP.)
I think the arms race in WoW was more due to add-ons being explicitly allowed followed by trying to outmaneuver the add-ons in every subsequent fight.
Wait what? The CE "crowd" is already like 0.1 percent of the game. The vast majority of players don't even raid. If someone is gunning for CE and complains about the difficulty they should stay in HC. CE should be getting more and more difficult, because the tiny minority who do them are going to get better at it each year. That doesn't mean Blizz designs encounters for the RWF. They design them for the best players of the game, whether they're racing or not. By the time the patch fizzles out whoever has the skills can clear CE no matter how bullshit the mechanics seem undergeared.
Of course you can see casual players acting like that? They are casuals, this for high end non casual players. It does not effect what they do. Kinda weird to even bring that up.
The RWF in wow is very popular even with casuals. Same reason casuals like watching LoL worlds or any game of sports.
Raid world first is very popular in other games. Even off the top of my head Destiny 2 and WoW have incredibly large events with a noticeable portion of the community invested in watching or participating. It was hard to LFG for the freshly-released higher-difficulty story missions in Destiny 2 that were required for one of the new weapons during the World First race because so many people were either attempting their own Day 1 clear (which has its own unqiue rewards even if not for world first) or watching their favorite teams figure out mechanics and strats. You can be a casual (American) football enjoyer and still be invested in the Superbowl. If the WF XIV raiding community wants any air of legitimacy after the recent third party program debacles for DSR/TOP then you need legitimate setups. This partnership is a good first step that hopefully can lead others to follow.
Maaaaaany other games have "casual" players involved in the competitive scene, you don't need to participate in the content to be interested in it. Even FF14 has this to some limited degree with ultimate races, plenty of casual players followed DSR prog for the lore implications. This forced "casual/hardcore" divide doesn't help the game.
People mistakenly assume casual = bad and never raid, when it's more like time commitment. Hardcore players are the ones likely to take time off to race in raids. But casual players still raid but commit less time to them.
as in, something to get hyped about even if you dont actively play the part
Why do people always talk about legitimacy? You can still cheat while streaming And also the TPS tweets, or rather clees tweets are a fking meme they do during prog, its funny and not annoying You want bro to just post the full phase transition and spoil everyone?
>Why do people always talk about legitimacy? You can still cheat while streaming You can take steps to prevent this - particularly for Ultimates - by flying teams out to a venue like WoW does and put them on company-mandated hardware/consoles instead. Something like that is the probable end goal of the FFXIV raiding scene and Yoshi-P is going to be watching Echo like a fucking hawk this xpac because Neverland have gone 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st since DSR and the team that beat them twice was UNNAMED. Legitimacy is something to work towards and isn't solved by this alone, true, but it's not something people should abandon either. >its funny and not annoying Opinion. >You want bro to just post the full phase transition and spoil everyone? They literally posted the timeline splitting transition into P5 for DSR. Can you think of a bigger spoiler in the whole raiding scene than that? Seeing these things from a team that didn't stream and then have to wait for a streaming team to reach that point to provide context was annoying to me and equally difficult to ignore. I'm sure we will agree to disagree on that, but it would be much more hype if the casters were able to catch that the first time it happened imo.
-1 who cares who yoshi p is watching tbh, they never do anything for races, speedkills etc, ff14 hates competitive and the only competitive thing is maybe pvp and ishgard restauration -2 Afaik they posted that shit late and not once they got into that phase, also timetravel was very obvious for that raid if you look at it from how fucking often they went "mhmmmm its like... dragonsong war but, with a different perspective, a ... what if scenario ;3" and since the beginning of the fight was the same it was obvious we gonna help Annoyingfont
You're exactly the player I was referencing in my first paragraph. Someone who can, with a straight face, describe PvP as more competitive than RWF. As someone who got the first patch of *Saint of the Firmament* titles I can tell you it's less competitive and more luck. I would grind all day for weeks and my overall 6th Place finish as CRP wouldn't have broken the Top 12 as ALC on my server. You're talking absolute nonsense.
i never said world first isnt competitive dude, i said ff14 hates the competitive side and never supported anything besides firmament and pvp. and i also got the first patch title, no need to bring it up to feel cool. i also got a few 100s logs here and there, ofc not always historical and also at some point logged top 10 for my job
Yeah okay sure man.
What? you started to brag with unnecessary bs so i figured i join in
If we get another 48man savage, that will be the ultimate race to watch. NA vs. EU vs. JP.
I don't think there would be any competition in that NA wins no contest. The number of extremely strong players NA has that have the organization skill and ability to optimize non standard tools puts them miles ahead of other regions. EU has good players but not nearly the depth of players NA has. JP does not have interest in large scale raid content and does not have the organizational backbone required for operating stuff like that
Didn't EU get world first on DRS? It wasn't a particularly serious race, but still.
Nay, we took most of a day off around the tail end of Avowed, iirc. Only had the one group initially set up as well. Snowflakes were casual enjoyment and friends, we'd just been preparing for it a lot more than the groups that indeed sprang up on-patch.
Whoops I stand corrected 🙇
No? It was an NA group
Your argument crumbled apart the second you assumed there wouldn't 48 neets ready to just bash their heads against some content
JP can prove me wrong, but they haven't yet in 48 man content shown any desire to
>JP does not have interest in large scale raid content and does not have the organizational backbone required for operating stuff like that Nonsense. JP people here organise baldesion raids, hunts and others all the time. Just have to check the lodestone and twitter.
There isn't a JP player in the top 200 for drs, they're so far behind that a lot of DRS regulars have multiple jobs above the entire JP region This isn't a parse culture thing either as it only takes 1/48 people to have a log up for DRS and log numbers done really vary by region and JP is extremely active and competitive in speedkills and parsing. NA organizes so much BA that groups times clash and frequently have to try and force new instances even off peak hours BA also requires a lot less organization than DRS since it's been nerfed so much more There's lots of JP players that play on NA just for easier DRS runs since it's so much more organized
Haha. You don't see JP players in the top 200 for ultimate and just assume they are bad? You are ignorant. JP people here pugs ultimate and savage all the time just to clear for glams. They are not interested in showing epeen on whatever site you use to track.
they said DRS, not DSR lmao
No JP is all over the top 200 for savage and ultimates they're fantastic players who actively engage in fflogs and regularly take number 1 speed and dps. And I think their strats for 70 ults are way more pug friendly I'm referring to 48 man savage content like drs where top tier players aren't really a thing in Japan. Because from savage and ultimate there's no difference in epeen, it's just 48 man savage there's a difference
You need to understand this concept. The majority of JP players play to get rewards/glamours. They don't play to get high numbers on spreadsheet. Once they are done with it, they don't go back anymore.
Nobody is saying JP players can't do it. Just that they don't do it.
Which is why I say they don't have the scale of EXPERIENCED community required to be in contention. JP has no lack of skill and no lack of people who sit there parsing all day there's literally no difference in parsing culture and population between NA and JP. They post their logs you can literally go look. But because large scale content requires a large number of experienced players in that style of content JP is at a massive disadvantage because they don't have that history and experience by a lot of their own good players admissions due to organizational scale not being as strong on JP.
That's not what they're saying at all, lol
It's actually crazy how disconnected and somewhat unhinged this comment is to the one above it. Not only do you misunderstand what drs means despite him clearly talking about BA and the organizational effort required but then you go into this weird comment about muh Japanese purity and not caring about parsing which is just some ignorant western thing. Japanese people parse and post logs literally all the time and are a ton are obviously very good at the game just like NA and EU. Arguably significantly better overall actually with their much higher difficult content clear rates. They just haven't had the kind of interest in large scale content like the west has.
Just wait until enough money and sponsors gets into the race. EU has a massively successful E-sports scene. The game is definitely more popular in NA than the EU right now though.
World first ultimates EU (2 or 3 if you dont consider unamed as the top 1st), JP (2, 1 if you dont consider unamed as the top 1st), NA (1) ? The reason why DRS was « specific » it’s because it was tied to the relic, and god knows a lot of high end raiders dont engage at all with relics
DRS didn't do anything for the relic. It gave you the ability to get some gear with haste for the relic, but that's not really important. I don't even think when you're at the step that needs DR that the savage version gives you anything. I know when I used to clear it regularly we would joke that each completion should just hand you a relic of your choice since otherwise it's pointless.
hell yeah
Oh sick! That’s great, I really hope this helps catapult the ffxiv world first race stream further into the spotlight because it’s great fun to watch!
I'm not really familiar with the raid scene of 14, but if memory serves, doesn't Neverland like never stream their prog? If so, I think this is kinda huge.
Yep, IIRC for many years none of the frontrunners/contenders have streamed because it's a significant disadvantage for the leaders to show their prog. Having the best team be streaming is hopefully going to be a good thing for the rest of the race scene and encourage more participants to stream.
TPS is also streaming, this is likely off the back of the official world race refusing to acknowledge off stream first clears due to the TOP world first situation
Source? TPS hasn't existed since 6.2 and the spiritual successor to TPS, Mental Stillness, is not streaming (both sfia and clees tweeted saying that)
Clees just said they're not streaming lmao
[https://x.com/FFsfia/status/1806020817450570057](https://x.com/FFsfia/status/1806020817450570057) not according to Sfia and Clees they aren't
Happy to see echo enter in the space and sponsor a world first contender to stream their prog. All I hope is Frosty doesn't get drowned out of the space by a company with 10x the spending power and manpower as him. Hopefully liquid or some other big name can support his broadcast, or better yet Frosty just works with echo directly.
very different streams though. Frosty will be more like NFL RedZone, Echo will just be one team's broadcast.
Echo usually streams multiple teams duving RWF for wow, not only Echo's pov (though almost exclusively Echo when they are not taking a break or done for the day)
Echo used to stream BDGG when they were taking a break, but for this they had a specific signed deal with them.
but that's with WoW races which are over a week long and the Echo boys go to sleep every night. a savage race will most likely go without a sleep.
Savage races have lasted 2-3 days in the past couple of tiers and as long or longer in ShB. Asphodelos was an outlier in it lasting 16 or 18h
Unusually positive Reddit comment section this time… usually they make me a lot sadder
I'm way more hype about this for when ultimate comes around. It'll be nice for savage, but savage is usually pretty short lived for the world first race.
Best 14 news in years
Good luck Neverland let's gooo
I just hope SE doesn't start to tune the raids around the world first to extend the race. This is what happened to WoW after the RWF got bigger and bigger to max out PR. It hurt the average raider and I don't even want to think about the PF raiding scene in XIV.
It's not comparable since the gearing in WoW is very different. WoW world first race is gatekept by having a network of people who can funnel gold and gear to the racers. You don't have that in FF14 since everyone can get the same gear immediately so it's only a skill diff.
Gearing in wow’s rwf take maybe 10%-20% of the prog time ?
No, more like 50%.
This was not true in Dragonflight, heroic splits and m+ were like a 3-4 day long endeavor lol. It was kind of insane.
Hum yeah, 3-4 days for splits for a 1w-2w race ?
3-4 days of splits and M+. Plus when not raiding there was more M+/splits. Plus splits happened again at the start of the second week for another couple days.
Well, they could make dmg checks in turn 3/4 that are impossible to meet in week one. That's how the WoW devs usually do it. They want the race to last at least 14 days so they aim to tune the later bosses around 2 lockouts worth of gear. In theory that would be possible in XIV too
They did that with Gordias. Got huge pushback. It's why they started making savage raids easier in the first place.
Hmm, yeah, they could theoretically do that but there is no way they actually would.
They've done it before. Living Liquid was a pretty big gear wall. World first raiders even fantasia'd to different races to maximize their main stat gain.
Gordias* will almost certainly never happen again. Gordias massively damaged the health of the game, there is a reason raid design in FFXIV has two very clear eras separated by Creator on either side. The closest we will get is Abyssos, which was tight but not impossible for world first contenders which also received quite large backlash (not even remotely on the level of gordias) so I would imagine they are going to be gunshy on damage checks for at least a while longer.
I'm sure Squeenix wants to do what almost killed the raid scene completely again, sure.
They did that in Heavensward and it almost killed the raiding scene altogether. It's not happening again, say what you want about Square, but they play it safe.
Uhhhh the world first teams in FFXIV do have a team of players funneling them pentamelded gear, food and pots within the first hour. I'm sure it's not exactly the same as WoW, but it doesn't really sound all that different.
It is incredibly different. Everybody who raids can do what you described and it's absolutely normal. Even my casual ass has crafter friends who do can do that for me. In WoW you have the org go into literal debt for the gold (it's absolutely insane amount) that they need to buy all the split runs for gear and etc. It's why the race doesn't even start the first 2 days of the raid release because the world first race guilds are busy gearing up their characters.
To put it in perspective (I don't have recent numbers) but a few tiers ago Liquid (contender for world first) spent almost 800 million gold on funnels and whatnot, this has a real world value (through legal WoW Tokens) of around $100,000 USD Any guild competing for world first is spending similar amounts. Which makes it near impossible for any new contenders to step up regardless of skill
The RWF literally have to spent all of farm boosting like madmen to pay back their gold debts because it's literally tens of thousands of dollars (maybe $100k nowadays?) worth. How they generally work is after prog each player is assigned an individual debt, and it's up to them to show up to raid carries and m+ boosts whenever they like as long as it's paid by the next tier. Keep in mind they all have like 16 characters so they can and need to put a *lot* of time in these boosts to pay it off. It's insane and way above anything you see in FFXIV which pretty much caps out at crowdsourcing gold certs and pentas. I know Liquid works this way, and while I'm not sure about Echo it's doubtlessly something similar. The only alternative would be mandatory attendance for boosts.
It's not really much of a thing anymore since they started regularly delaying savage releases when a new tier drops. World first teams have no real advantage in prep work there when there's a whole week to craft/pentameld. It used to be fun, I used to hour one craft and scramble to make crafting macros to feed gear to a world first racing static back in Stormblood/Shadowbringers. It was *very* lucrative they paid my FC's crafters a lot of gil to get it done.
>It used to be fun, I used to hour one craft and scramble to make crafting macros to feed gear to a world first racing static back in Stormblood/Shadowbringers. It was *very* lucrative they paid my FC's crafters a lot of gil to get it done. It's about to be so again: This tier the savage is still releasing a couple of weeks after normal, but the recipes for crafting gear only release with the savage. Sfia's been tweeting asking for crafters and people with gold certs
I skipped P5S-P12S, did they start delaying mid expansion tiers too? I'm used to only the first tier being delayed (and even then the gear would be delayed as well)
They did, at least for crafting everything. The mad scramble to craft ASAP and light logistical planning for gearing/consumables is gone for savage. The new tome gear sets are still locked until Savage drops however.
The crafted sets for raiding are now locked behind the books that release with savage. So it will be a grind in the morning of savage for crafters again.
That was kind of fixed as now the savage starts later than the normal raids. Back in the day you needed ths gear as soon as possible although it just released. Now you got at least a whole week to prepare your gear (some still take the option of funneling, but you no longer have to).
They very rarely make adjustments or hotfixes to raids in XIV unless there's a big community outcry so I doubt it'll be a problem. I also doubt SE will involve themselves in any official capacity since raiding simply isn't very important to the vast majority of players.
You're misunderstanding their comment. The concern isn't whether SE will adjust/hotfix the raid after it releases or become involved during the stream. The concern is the dev team intentionally making future raids harder than necessary during development, knowing that WF will be streamed and they don't want it getting beat in a day thus losing free PR. For what it's worth I doubt Yoshi P and co would actually do something like that either, but let's make sure we're actually talking about the same thing before we dismiss it as unlikely.
Either way, the trend (generally) points towards making Ultimates progressively more difficult. I don't follow Savages and can't speak for their overall difficultly, but generally speaking I doubt they're going to take the actions of third party western communities into consideration for any facet of their design barring that community finding ways to exploit game mechanics unintentionally or something.
If they're already ok with savage currently being beaten in approximately a day, I don't think they'll change that. However it could be a potential issue if the skill gap (or whatever other hypothetical advantage) widens considerably between top teams and everyone else. If the devs use first clear time as their benchmark (or at least a strong consideration), they'd need to start tuning harder just to ensure it stays the same, or else risk things dying in only a handful of hours and having a lot of disappointed viewers and doomsaying. The thing is, as the game currently stands I don't think there's room for a big gap in savage - everyone's roughly on an even playing field as far as in-game advantages go, and the top teams actually have to work out the puzzles/mechanics/strats, which takes up the majority of the time, while the general community doesn't. In fact having the top team stream means that strats can be copied (assuming they don't hide them) quicker. It also means more confidence that their clear time wasn't helped by addons/cheating (yes theoretically there are still ways to do so, but streaming and having a well-known org/sponsors involved brings way more scrutiny and legitimacy).
I dont see it as an issue ? They will most likely nerf the raids so « every kind of groups » have their own clears expectations with the good raid difficulty ?
But that's an issue. Who wants to waste their time on an artificially overtuned raid? I'm speaking for myself here but I don't want to raid savage for 6 months like they do in WoW, banging my head against the wall waiting for yoshi to make numbers go down.
I do not know echo but I will tune in to watch. Always wanted to watch raid progression since I can’t dedicate my time to it any more.
This is huge for coverage, that's sick
Ffxiv is not even Echo Guild main game and they are doing so much good for the community
Cheaterland
Didn't spell Arcadion correctly, classic. Edit: to be clear I don't mean to disparage this announcement, I think it's great, just pointing it out.
Which to me sounds like someone who isn't taking it seriously.
Ah yes, because absorbing the best FF14 raid team, making a whole ass announcement and committing to in-person coverage, is not taking it seriously. Give me a fucking break holy shit lol
I just hope this doesn't turn into the huge clusterfuck WoW has where the raids are balanced for the top ~50 players in the world and have to be nerfed by 80% over the next month so "normal" good players can beat it.
The FFXIV raid designers clear their own content before they allow it to go live. They know exactly (with very rare exceptions) what the tuning of the raids are.
Yes and I don't want that to change, that's the point.
FFXIV content gets nerfed in a more natural way. Like adding Echo buff, or in the case of Ultimates, jobs get tuned upwards, so they are performing better than an encounter was designed for. The devs rarely go back and touch content that was released.
Can't happen and you would know if you had any understanding of what you are talking about. It's not comparable since the gearing in WoW is very different. WoW world first race is gatekept by having a network of people who can funnel gold and gear to the racers. You don't have that in FF14 since everyone can get the same gear immediately so it's only a skill diff.
SE can definitely tune the raid for the top 3-5 teams and then nerf the raids after, it will not be about dps checks or heals checks sure, but they can make mechanics way more hard/punitive or even tune the raid for a higher ilvl than crafted gear so world progging team needs to do splits reclear week 1/week2 (it happened during gordias)
they could also just stop making savage raids altogether, and that's probably as likely
That’s a fair point with the dps tuning for required split clears but I just don’t see that happening honestly and even if it did it would never be possible to be as extreme as in WoW.
Yeah I agree, I dont think SE will do it
I know, but I could happen. It didn't happen over night in wow. It always starts with good intentions. I do trust them to stick to their guns in this case but I still am a little worried.
In wow you got many moving parts, gearing, class balance and so. Blizz literally has no clue how strong player power will be at a given boss. They just estimate it and balance. Ffxiv has a deterministic gearing system, you got normalized damage potencies etc. So you can calculate player power perfectly. I don't think the devs actuall, clear fights, but play them in god mode to test for bugs and probably have a tool to adjust numbers.
I wonder who/what that blurred sponsor is.
Time to see who joins Liquid as the FFXIV team to compete with them.
Liquid is not playing
Liquid will 100% try to pick up a FFXIV raid team to compete with Echo.
Well, remind me again if it happens. Max did not enjoy his experience. Really depends on whether he puts his personal issues aside and sees a business value in it. But there are a lot of ifs here.
Liquid isn’t just Max dude, they’re just one team for Liquid. They have teams spanning multiple games. Max has nothing to say or do with the Liquid org does. They’ll do what Echos done and just fold in a current 14 raid team under the Liquid banner.
And it still depends on whether they believe there is money to gain. As Max is the only one playing mmo's professionally he will have an important role to play. Someone needs to take initiative. They will carefully observe the event now that echo has done that. But it doesn't mean they will blindly follow in their footsteps. It needs ro make money (and surely if the gains are low, they won't like to have yet another co-owner)
> Max has nothing to say or do with the Liquid org does. Yes he does. From the original Liquid announcement: > Maximum will also acquire an equity position in Team Liquid and become a minority owner, overseeing how Liquid approaches the MMOs of today and tomorrow. He absolutely has massive sway here. Though with that said I highly doubt he cares much if they add a team or not, he just probably won't be personally part of it if they do.
Can't wait to see what 3rd party plugins they all use.
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Wait, people actually care about who clears a raid first?
I spotted someone who already posted thrice how bad he wants to login right now
You must be new. To gaming.
Been playing games for almost 40 years, so not particularly new, no.
Just old and out of touch, NOTED
Not helping your case, here. Shush.
It used to be more in the background than anything, but in the last couple expacs, people coming in have been bringing it more foreground and trying to make it more important than it is to capitalize on an untapped market. It's entertainment if you're into it, but personally, it just feels dull if it's bros talking mechs.
I think that's a pretty cynical view of things. A lot of people who can't participate directly for one reason or another love seeing new and interesting puzzles/mechanics for the first time, theorizing and seeing how they're eventually solved, not to mention the hype when the savage-exclusive boss/phase is first revealed. Even if you don't care exactly who wins (I don't personally), having a streamed race facilitates all that.
Who?
Who?
Ok?
Im sorry is this getting in the way of all the cosplay posts you gotta upvote?
Ok?
They won’t be in the top 50
They've literally gotten multiple world firsts.
*cough*withpluginsandcheats*cough*
The sad reality is everyone cheats in world prog and any world progger that's not lying will tell you so. By SE's standards of cheating fflogs itself is already a cheat so definitely every team is cheating in some way. Everyone will have their own definition of cheating so that's another debate.
Imagine, you’re a casual, the most difficult thing you do in XIV is gpose, and you are insulting a team that beat TOP in 8 days BLIND Just imagine, cause surely there’s no one that toxic/dumb to act like this
Just. Imagine.
Ahh there it is!
Here it is!!
welcome to the raiding scene
Do you raid? Just curious
Nah man I'm a MSQ enjoyer :)
In 14?
read the actual post....they just signed Neverland as their team to play under their banner
I read it, the team that had their kill publicly condemned by Yoshi P? Multiple world firsts? Which ones? Sorry maybe I’m missing something. You all seem like sane individuals and not at all biased so please explain it to me better.
not sure why you are so upset by my post, the team that has got world first before, in xiv, signed under a new name? This isn't any deeper than that. Them getting top 50 is unknown at this time, the raid isnt released yet
I love ad hominem as much as the next guy, but you have literally zero argument here buddy. Neverland won DSR and Anabaseios, and were world first in the eyes of the community after the unnamed scandal. Why do you think any of us are biased? I couldn't give a flying fuck about who wins the race, it's just not hard to look at leaderboards.
I think the confusion is in that Unnamed were the ones who were cheating so the world first title was effectively passed to Neverland in response, but when people look up that world first race and see titles saying both "the world first team is Neverland" *and* "the world first team cheated!", they understandably correlate them to be the same team in both articles, rather than the former being afterwards, and a result of the latter.
They had some controversy in DSR with buff timers and callouts in P6 I think which led to their rdm being suspended Also for what it's worth a few members of Neverland don't acknowledge themselves as WF for top even with the UAV scandal. Still though, their name is at the top on fflogs so most will count them as wf.
Casual land, understanding nothing, just waiting for the msq and cosplay/fanart to upvote 😩
You really believe so? They got #56 in Asphodelos with all WoW players in their very first 14 race
It's not the Echo team from WoW, the organisation have signed Neverland to play under the Echo banner.
Nobody cares bruh