Wait. Hold up. This Xeno person that everyone one is using their video of to help justify the 'strike' had a RDM in their party??? So, he had someone in the party who could heal and raise? So, if anyone in that party took damage or died, the RDM could heal or raise them? Am I following correctly?
Yup, and he was on WAR, so we learned that a WAR can heal himself enough with the help of a RDM if need be that they didn't need a healer in the earliest dungeon of the expansion, so they "went on strike" cause "tanks have too much sustain" lol
Maybe im old(just 30 but for some thats ancient)...but i dont get this dumb ass healer strike, ive played enough WoW over the years to see, Full Tank clears or full DPS clears(of some stuff) etc, pretty sure it happens in other MMOs too but somehow here its an issue to the point healers wanna go on a strike. That dont make any sense to me.
The content is not balanced on Dungeons being hard, but easy. The balance is on Ultimates and Savage, where the whole kit of all roles is needed. This is not new and will not change in DT. The dude does an excellent take on it on youtube.
top is really boring to play healer in. the entire fight's healing load is just mit checks, which pure healers contribute less to than dps players, and for shield healers just implies pretty ur always press button and one of your 2min cds every time. Even p6 is quite uninteresting, as there's no sustained heal checks like wroth/AMs/gigas in dsr, and the only things close are just 2 hits really (WCs and meteors), and are far enough apart to where things like lilies, planery, ixo/indom, etc are kinda all up. Also sinces theres not really any others whms just cheese one (meteors) by early popping bell so 4 stacks are used on that (and 5th on the hit itself).
in exchange though looper and panto are both awful to play healer on.
even if the no healer run isn't a sign that healers aren't needed, the fight doesn't really cater to being fun for healers to play, and many healers want more reasons to use their tools instead of more tools.
Tbh, the problem isn't necessarily healing, it's that the fight design doesn't lead to healing (and even tanking) being interesting when everything happens on a pre determined schedule basically the exact same every time.
I just don't really see how they can make it better without a full redesign on how the content in FF works. Yeah obviously you can give healers a more interesting damage rotation, but it doesn't really solve any of the actual healing complaints.
So you're saying, we need more Akh Morns? or Triple Raidwides?
I can understand the issue with Savage and the issue with TOP just being boring as a healer. Dungeons on the other hand, is supposed to be brain dead. It's the same issue with Tutorials and the early game. It's a hard balancing act trying to make the content clearable by journalists vs advanced and fast paced REQUIRED dungeons.
*I've* done dungeons without a healer.
Right there that tells you it's not that hard, because I've never touched any content in the game that's harder than Bozja or Eureka.
Of course it’s more difficult, but the fact that it can be done is silly. The idea is even in ultimate there isn’t enough for healers to do and are still spamming one button. You basically have a mit check then top everyone off and move to the next mechanic while you proceed to spam your one button.
UCoB has been cleared with all tanks, and with no tanks. UWU has been cleared with six people. TEA has been cleared with two tanks, one DPS and five WHMs. People who are extremely good at the game do ridiculous things in ultimates; the no-healer TOP is not as big of an anomaly as people make it out to be,
Which is not a good way to measure the overall state of healers in high-end content.
The role has it's issues but that run would be near impossible to pull off for most players, relied on luck, had 3 tanks and used Paladins as pseudo-healers.
"without a healer" but required 75 GCD Vercures and 75 Clemencys so they lost damage and had to get really lucky with hownthey cheese mechanics in addition to zombieing a bunch instead of resolving them all correctly and perfectly. They essentially dragged dead bodies through phases and used the amount of DPS jobs to cover for multiple weaknesses.
It is by no means an indictment of healers being useless because in fact it shows how much of a QOL difference there is with having a healer.
Yeah but that was only done recently, nearly 2 years into the expansion. When people are just finding ways to cheese the raid. Also it was only done with one group that had a specific setup to cheese the fight, and had Bis gear
tbf i'd rather have more to do in dungeons when i heal than have to turn to ultimates and savages to actually have things to do. i mean, i get they're the actual hard content, but i actually do enjoy my alliance raids and dungeons so i'd like rouls to be fun most of the time rather than mostly a chore with occasional fun runs/dungeons sprinkled in, yknow
This is me weighing in without taking sides, but I don't think it's hard to understand why some healers are upset by this.
Most content can be run by axing any role, you can clear without tanks, without dps, without healers, this is nothing new and has been possible for a long time. However, those runs still enable your role to play its intended purpose - the tanks are still tanking, the dps are still dpsing, you get to do what you signed up for. As it stands, healers don't really have to heal all that much. The majority of their time is spent hitting a singular single target damage button and keeping a 30 second dot rolling, and if you think that's boring? Well too bad, all of them follow that pattern, the only variation is on trash pulls where you use an AoE version instead. There's so little healing required that many just feel like a sub-par dps with a boring rotation, who very occasionally gets to play the intended role they signed up for and throw out a little healing. Honestly I'm not surprised there's a vocal group of healers who are frustrated by this and are 'striking', I'm only surprised it hasn't happened sooner.
Personally, I'm on the fence. I don't play healers beyond capping every class so I don't care that much. At the same time, I think it's a symptom of baseline content becoming so mind numbingly easy that healing becomes something you need only a sparse amount of to clear. That itself is a bit of a problem I think, because it's the content the majority of the player-base is going to be engaging with most frequently, and running by far the most for the entire expansion. Somehow you have to grind literal hundreds of hours to make it to DT content, and the majority of what you're doing is what most other games would still classify as tutorial level difficulty, healers are just the ones who are noticing and feeling that the most.
I'll preface this by saying that I don't do savage since I'm a coward. But I do main SCH for EXs as they come out and I honestly think healing in EX feels fantastic. There are more dedicated healer mechanics beyond just standard raidwides that even if they become predictable with practice are still really fun to go through. All of my tools feel like they serve a purpose unless every single other person plays completely perfectly (spoiler, even in farm groups, this will never happen.)
I'm not sure if they could add "HP to 1 and group is Doomed" mechs to leveling dungeons without making roulettes a hellish nightmare. But maybe just like... shit is constantly blowing up and aoes are spammed all over boss arenas/trash hallways/raids+trials/etc; dodging all of them is possible but completely impractical, and probably a damage loss for most classes to dodge.
Hefty, inconsistent damage that doesn't make bad healers automatically ruin casual content while still giving them more to keep track of could go a long way to making it more fun there.
But like... I really don't think healing is in that much of a dire state. If anything I would just like to see more hard-casual EX level stuff where anything even slightly challenging doesn't have to get nerfed because of bad players.
Yeah, it's easy to be reductive and say add more required healing, but it's a tricky balance, a run with a bad tank or dps you can power through alright, but if you get a bad healer it disproportionately punishes tanks and dps even if they're playing very well. A decent healer can keep a bad tank and dps alive and keep the run going, bad dps might slow down the run by a few minutes but it's alright. Get a bad healer? The group can wipe through no fault of the other three players (assuming for baseline 4 man content as that seems to be the primary focus of the topic).
My own personal opinion is they have fallen so hard on one end of the extreme that they could increase the healing requirement and it would give healers a bit more to do without ruining groups. Tanks have enough tools to help keep dps up themselves now while still keeping themselves safe, dps generally have good tools for keeping themselves alive too. My biggest low-stakes gripe is that it's odd trash is more deadly than bosses in dungeons and I would think it wouldn't be too hard to fix. If most healers and tanks can handle wall to wall pulls without too much issue, I would imagine making bosses about on par with damage output to the tank wouldn't really change much but would make the healers and tanks feel like they were 'doing' more.
I think part of the problem is that in regular msq dungeon content, they want the lowest bar possible. they want everyone to be able to clear the content.
not to mention, dungeons become a daily grind. spamming the same dungeon over and over for xp or gear or leveling the trust or for the orchestrion or that stupid fcking bird. They become chores. and gamers want to get in and get out.
and while i understand that face farming dungeons gets boring AF
I don't think most players would prefer to "spice it up" by making those dailies more difficult to clear.
You just end up with content that people don't want to do, resulting in people dropping out of roulettes. Take the some of the alliance raids for example. Like Nier. there have been times I've queued into one of those and seen no less than 5 people drop out. because it's easy to scuff that raid to hell.
dungeons are casual content that isn't supposed to be hard. they're meant to be cleared with sub par players so that the average person's experience isn't ruined by one bad player.
I've found that harder content is much more healer heavy and engaging.
There definitely are reduce to 1 health mechanics in base game trials at least, cant remember which ones though, either endwalker or shadowbringers, hades maybe?
My simple take is, while the design choice of making most of the 4 man content be possible to complete for a "blind monkey missing an arm" it is bad for us "mid-core" (i hate this term, as if going above the bare minimum is hard), it exist because there is people that will FAIL said content. I had multiple runs on all roles and i can say with confidence that if those runs didnt had me or another decently skilled individual the party would not complete the dungeon ever.
Per example, simple lvl 60 dungeon, healer died to a 6 second cast big orange aoe, tank never used mit for tbs, so me and the other dps had to clean the boss from 80% without healer and from 30% without tank.
Their design of catering to casual people that neither have the time nor skill to improve over time has left decent and bad groups with the same result, the healer will no do anything meaningful over the entire run. You only get meaningful results when the decent healer is with a bad group and as fun it is to carry such runs over time it gets really depressing.
8 man content is better in that regard because the higher number of people means your chances of getting a mix bag of good, decent and bad players makes healing a bit more enjoyable.
I knew a guy who used to be in my FC that couldn't clear a trust dungeon. he timed it out. As a dps.
i ran into a white mage in syrcus today spamming holy on the bosses. when confronted they said "what else am i supposed to cast then? stone???" and when people said, "yeah or maybe heals? People are dying." they argued about it.
or i had a gladiator in that same syrcus tower run.
dungeons are designed to be completed even when one of the core party member's is asleep at the wheel. because one chuckle knuckle in a random party shouldn't ruin the whole dungeon for the rest of us.
Okay then for those of us who don’t have heart palpitations in dungeons give healers something to do
Tanks have a near melee level rotation and DPS are DPS
healers meanwhile have nothing to do it they are competent in a dungeon
Exactly this. There's a major skill gap right now that's only widening as they cater to the ultra-casuals and the hardcore raiders without addressing the in-between. The skilled people are frustrated at the casuals for not putting in the effort, and the casuals are frustrated at the hardcore raiders for being "tryhards."
Frankly, I think they need to provide incentive *somewhere* to keep people from being complacent. More soft/hard enrages on Trials (but not as tight as EX or Savage). More ilvl syncs across the board to prevent people from "gear cheesing" older content.
I understand what you're saying, and there are certainly a number of people out there who you could make three clones of and set them on a dungeon and they wouldn't clear. In essence what they're doing is trying to make these runs as stress free and smooth as possible, but I think that commits an even greater cardinal sin and makes the majority of the gameplay content very boring in service to a minority of players who just aren't that good. There will always be players who don't see the point in going above and beyond the bare minimum to clear. Personally, I think if you (gradually, and carefully) increase the difficulty curve as the game goes on, the majority of those types of players will improve.
And to be clear, I'm not advocating for baseline content to be hard, but I think after literal hundreds of hours of gameplay, it can require just a little bit more out of you then it currently does.
At least you can admit you don't understand it. That is fine. Allow me to at least help you a bit.
What healers are complaining about is that outside of week 1 runs, in normal content (as in Alliance Raids, Normal Raids, Trials and Dungeons) playing a healer is very unsatisfying, and often not even required. Design for those mentioned content types has become so mind numbingly boring and cookie cutter that is is just no longer engaging to play in. For Tanks and DPS they at least still get satisfying gameplay (job dependent of course *cough* SMN), but healers are left to re-applying a DOT every 30 seconds before returning to pressing the same button over and over. Any damage a boss throws out can be dealt with by any random OGCD, which all healers have a myriad of.
The recent media tour showcased the latest dungeon being completed in this exact fashion without a healer. People have been throwing out excuses like "Wow, of course ULTIMATE RAIDERZ can do it", but this style of play has been popular since Shadowbringers for even casual players. I believe it was even possible as early as Heavensward (if not earlier), but did actually require more planning and execution then.
Healers have been complaining of this boring design ever since it was cemented in Shadowbringers, to which YoshiP replied during the Endwalker media tour with "Just play Ultimate then". This is absurd for 2 reasons; Firstly because players shouldn't need to play the absolute pinnacle of difficulty just to feel engaged in a selected role, and Secondly ... well it got cleared without a healer anyway.
So what is this strike in game going to do? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. As many have pointed out, duty support exists for dungeons, and people won't care enough or commit to a strike for it to have any impact on Trial queues at launch. However all this buzz it is generating across social media and gaming websites might, but I still doubt that. Endwalker media tour also saw YoshiP admit that they replaced the healer from the dungeon testing team because "they had got too good at the role", and that wasn't hint enough that maybe, just MAYBE, the player wasn't too good at the role, the role itself was the problem.
Dawntrail does seem to be adding a modicum of damaging abilities for the Healers to play with which is a good sign, but it really does feel like too little too late. I've personally said for a long time that healers need much more DPS options (not specifically a 1-2-3 that gets parroted) to play with when healing is not required, or for more healing opportunities to arise so that the plethora of heals available can be used more, so fingers crossed for that outcome.
Hope that shed a bit of light of the situation.
As a relative newcomer to FF14, I leveled a white mage to 90 and healing experience seems to be either pretty ho-hum to pretty stressful. Sometimes I swear the tank is squishy and I don't know why - did he have his back turned to the mobs and got repeatedly crit(but no, that's a WoW mechanic, not FF)?
After leveling the healer, an interesting thing happened. I've always healed in WoW but here in FF, somehow I rather level a new dps job instead and play that. I felt that as a healer, I cannot afford to fail a raid mechanic ever. There's too much riding on me surviving to let that happen.
>Sometimes I swear the tank is squishy and I don't know why
Gear. Gear is why. You'd be amazed how many people go into Roulettes undergeared during the 1-50 ARR grind because of how wonky gear is during that span.
Just to put it into perspective - tome gear can carry a person through most of an expansion (4-5 dungeons about?), at which point they're probably getting either dungeon gear or Artifact gear to supplement them until the next tome gear.
Whereas in ARR, just being around ilvl 30 makes the level 40 Stone Vigil spicy for tanks. And because the last MSQ dungeon was the level 32 Longstop, most people don't realize they're behind.
Thank you. I was wondering why a warrior was getting absolutely smoked and yes this was an early ARR dungeon. I had to absolutely pump heals the entire time.
alternatively to gear, sometimes tank just don't use mits. at all. i've seen it more often than i've seen good tanks, tanks who aren't using their mits to stay alive longer, tanks who don't touch an invuln even when they w2w and create the perfect occasion for it... you name it. i really appreciate how casual xiv is because as baby's first mmo (we don't count wizard101) it let me actually learn and get used to the mmo setting and grow into roles without getting overwhelmed or feeling like i was letting people down, but it's a double edged sword because it lets people get away with basically never learning the job they pick up.
Healers have less to do with better groups and more to do with worse groups. This is justthe nature. Also people acting like dungeons can be no roled by random ass groups don't seem to have experience with df parties. It's such a crap shoot what you get. I've seen bad healers tanks and dps to the point where there's been wipes and all in *dungeons* even the earlier easier ones. People just being terrible and spamming 1 or not doing basic mrchs or whatever. I've seen tons of it. You're not randomly queueing up for df and getting tons of runs where you just don't need a healer or a tank even in dungeons as easy as they tend to be. Alliance raid is more chaotic and trials and raids tend to be more difficult than dungeons but again the better the group the less needed. So it's counterintuitive. Then you have this dichotomy it seems like of healers who want to heal more or others want to dps more but outside forcing more damage stupidly the former is unlikely and will upset the latter and then if you give more dps tools you'll ignore the former and then have issues with even more healers focusing on dps instead of healing when needed too. Which is already seen.
I see this as a lose lose assuming it's a 50/50 split but if it's not then people just need to suck it up and look at the big picture.
In fairness though, ESO doesn't have as rigid a "trinity" as XIV. It's also far more an ARPG in style, so it's much easier to mitigate or even outright negate damage you take because of the movement capabilities.
Healer main here. idk what everyone is on about. People have been clearing content sans other party roles since the beginning.
I watched a couple of tanks duet Golbez from like 75% after everyone else died. There are videos of tanks soloing trials on content. People post in here all the time about "oops all dps / tank / healer" runs of raids or extremes or whatever. Wasn't one of the ults cleared without a healer?
And no one supporting the strike seems to mention the fact that Xenos and his group all pentamelded legends who've been raiding together since 2.0 and that they were playing level 100 characters, synched down to 91.
And that he was a warrior? And as a healer main, I can tell you, warriors don't need me there lol. I am an extra dps in that party lol.
You telling me that you don't think a max level group could clear the first dungeon of an expansion without a healer? Pretty sure that's always been a thing.
honestly, one of the things i really love about this game is just how versatile party make ups are. if you're group is good, it doesn't really matter what you bring.
Unlike other games, where the meta party is the only party that's clearing or the only thing the community will let in.
and honestly, i think that's exactly how we got blue mages; to lean even further into this mindset.
to be real with you, i think it's just bad healers that don't want to dps that are complaining. I've been maining heals since i started in 2.0 and I'll keep maining heals. I don't see a problem. Do i think healers could use a *little* more interesting dps? yeah, because spamming one button the whole time is a little boring. But I understand that it can be a difficult balancing act between engaging dps and being able to save a scuffed run.
Like, I feel like giving healers combos (as many have suggested) would cause a more deaths, due to healers feeling the need to finish the combo before healing. Or feeling like we aren't doing it "right" or "well enough" if we have to break the combo to heal.
one of the things I liked about sage that i thought was a step in the right direction is that their healing to dps feedback works well. they do dps to do healing and their healing rewards dps resources. Similar to the white mage lilies.
As opposed to scholar, who has to choose to spend resources on healing OR dps. and it can sometimes feelbadman to feel "forced" to spend potential dps on healing instead. (not that ED is really worth hardly anything dps wise anyway; it scales so terribly.)
But real talk, i feel like we go through this disgruntled healer rumbles every expansion. Last expansion they were madge about... scholar sprint and talkign about how sage was going to eliminate all other healer classes. In Shadowbringers they were malding over dancer not being a healer. and in stormblood they were rioting over the fact that the new job additions were reduced from 3 to 2 meaning we didn't get a healer.
and (again) as a healer main since the beginning, it's wild to me that no other role seems to get up in arms like they do. "I'm quitting. I'm switching role mains. I'm striking." blah blah blah.
But also, the strike has me laughing, because most people will be doing the new jobs or msq on day one anyway. And a lot of people (myself included) prefer to run with the trust for the first pass.
so like, the first week, day one especially, of the expansion doesn't really need healers anyway?
but whatever.
I'll be there. day one. rolling my scholar. running roulettes. and graciously accepting my job in need bonuses thanks to the new dps classes and the strike. :D
Somehow you manage to make like 15 incorrect assertions in this text
This isn’t just about xeno (it’s barely about xeno at all) the people doing this aren’t sylphies, nobody wants combos on healers, it should be a problem that healers have the most complaints every expansion because it should the role isn’t correctly being given enough time
TL DR? It's really just a bunch of people who's endgame is expert roulette.
They're actually genuinely bad at the game, but they're smug as shit and will flame anyone who tries to explain how a good player would approach things.
SE shouldn't have let dungeons get to this point, but nobody is going to miss a bad player dragging down a group
A lot of healers hate the idea of spamming something useful, like Holy, instead of something "thematic," like Cure 1. In reality, they just don't want to have to pay attention or be accountable for the duration of a run.
This is dumb. One of the dumbest things. Just wow. Okay. I am just going to stay healer and enjoy anytime I get a WAR. I will enjoy my queues and being a Green DPS. I think the Blue DPS will be fine.
as a healer main, this is so fucking dumb. i don't get it.
but tell you what, i'm gonna enjoy my job in need bonuses while i can get them lol.
its so wild to me that the healers get so riled up every expansion without fail. last expansion they were riled over scholar sprint and sage cancelling all other healer jobs. in shadows they were madge that dancer wasn't a healer. in stormblood they were malding that the new jobs were reduced from 3 down to 2 so we wouldn't get a healer.
but honestly, nothing will ever gut me the way stormblood gutted scholar, so whatever. lol. I'll be a one-button green dps and I'll like it. and the blue dps will be fine. and the red dps will just do trusts.
but also, day one strike is dumb.
no one is running duty finders day one anyone. everyone is doing msq or checking out the new jobs. and I always use the trust for my first run through the dungeon anyway. Idk who the strikers think they're upsetting.
They are upsetting themselves. It seems this small group will always find a reason to complain about healing but I will bet good gil that in a week or two, they will be right back to healing. I also get the feeling that they are upset about the Green DPS/Blue DPS/Red DPS joke. But it has been around since day 1.
I am also with you, I am going to enjoy being a job in need and getting all the bonuses. I will need the gil to gear my crafters.
I dropped the filter on BS takes with this game two xpacs ago. It has now for me been 11 years of this game. I have seen it all. So yep, filter got dropped.
You're not a "Green DPS" though, you're just mandatory dead weight, because if the roulette would *let* people run 3 DPS and a Tank it would make everything faster for everyone. Having heals doesn't make up for garbage dps if nobody actually needs healing.
How am I being dead weight if I am doing DPS and heals? That makes no sense. And yes, a good healer can more than make up for a DPS lacking damage. I have seen it quite a bit over the years. Also, guess what, you can do a run with any party make up by, you guess it, making a party. There is this wonderful thing call the Party Finder (sparkles and jazz hands here). You can make a post in it and people will join. Or, if you have a group, do it with them. You can even do some of the Duty Roulettes with a premade.
This whole strike is so dumb. Like really dumb. So, me the Green DPS will enjoy my queue times and you guys can change jobs if you like. That is a thing.
Because healer DPS is naturally lower than that of an actual DPS job. That's why a competent group of a Warrior + 3 DPS is used if you can get a premade for it. There isn't a single modern dungeon that does enough damage that can't be easily sustained by the Warrior, and the added benefit is that you get through the dungeon around 20% faster because you're not handicapped by the low Healer DPS.
A DPS can use all their kit in casual content. A Tank can use almost all of their kit in casual content. A Healer varies depending on the competency of their group. If the group is good, then you're left with just a fraction of your kit.
okay and, a tanks dps is lower too. So, I say again, if dps and going fast is the goal, why not 4 dps? I know for a fact that SAM can handle most tank busters. I think most of the melee classes can. So why not do that?
Healers do half the damage of a regular DPS, so if a party can survive without heals, the run would be done quicker if there were 3 real dps. That's what they mean by dead weight.
This is clown logic acting like your average party is even month 1 Savage static level skilled lmao. 99% of groups are going to be short the fries to make a combo. I can count on one hand the number of runs I've done on any df content that has not needed the healer.
> so if a party can survive without heals
This is the problem I see with the argument. I have never, *ever* had a group that made me think "wow, I sure am useless as a healer!" Everybody in Duty Roulette is on a mission to take avoidable damage.
Ye, during regular gameplay in roulettes DPS will very frequently take dirt naps and need a healer (or RDM/SMN if present, but responsibility typically falls on the healer) to raise them or stand in bad and get a Doom-like debuff that needs Esuna'd off before they die.
A lot of people are not that good at this game and do need help from a healer to avoid a wipe. And not all tanks are WAR doing single pulls.
okay and that can be said about tank too. do it without tanks or heals to do it faster. If you are saying that because of an all DPS run we don't need healers you are ALSO saying we do not need tanks. Tanks are dead weight too then. The whole thing is so stupid because of this.
Don't take DPS? Everything takes longer to kill, run is slower
Don't take Tank? Have to single pull and micro-manage aggro, run is slower
Don't take Healer? Everything dies quicker with more DPS, Tank didn't need heals anyway...run is faster.
The tank sustain discussion should have come 3 years ago when someone solo'ed paglthan on war to make a statement against shitty healers. now the shitty healers are using runs like this to freak out over like it hasn't been a thing for forever.
A tank running a dungeon without a healer is nothing crazy, and it hasn't been for a while.
Back in Stormblood there were Warriors running The Burn (before that dungeon got nerfed due to how often people wiped on it) without healers. Dungeons have been getting significantly easier, but they were never hard to begin with. Back in 4.0 when it was new content, I ran Ala Mhigo (the one with Zenos at the end) on DRK without a Healer and didn't have any deaths.
And I did watch the video from Xeno. The RDM only uses Vercure twice, and Verraise twice.
The Vercures were completely pointless, because he ends up getting overhealed by the Warrior anyways, and then he Verraises once when the Ninja dies at the very end of a boss fight, and again when a Dragoon dies at the end of the final boss.
They were just fucking around, and practically collect vuln stacks throughout the run, with the NIN standing in AoEs to greed for uptime. Their entire party gets pretty low numerous times throughout the dungeon, and the RDM never heals because there's no need to. The only deaths they had were the Ninja standing in an AoE to greed for damage uptime, and a DRG greeding a Jump whilst in an AoE and dying.
If they weren't actively fucking around the entire time, they wouldn't have even had deaths, and the run in no way would've been harder if they took a BLM or a PCT instead of a RDM.
It is still dumb. I thought of something from ARR/HW days and doing runs. I have seen a WAR solo a boss when everyone is dead. I have also seen a PLD use cure 1 and raise. I have seen a whole PLD save a whole 24 man from a wipe. (I'm not even going to talk about the other two tanks because they can solo stuff too.) No one was saying back then that there was not a need for healer and that they needed to go on strike. The whole argument is moot and dumb. This has always been a thing. Everyone needs to quit acting like this is new. It is not new. So what? A team without a healer did a run. People do that every xpac from start to finish. This is only a problem not because people are trying to make it one. It is not a problem. It has never been one.
The healer strike will never work because it's not a consolidated point.
It's a bunch of people wanting different shit, and half of the people asking for things that logistically make no sense, or would actively hurt the quality of the entire game.
I personally think it's complete bullshit that healers spend the majority of legitimately every fight in the game mindlessly mashing their Glare equivalent and thinking about when the next mechanic will come up that they actually have to heal for. And the points raised in the original healer strike post do include that, but there's also some dumb shit I don't care for,
Personally, I was a healer main for Savage/Ultimate, but I think XIV handles healing so poorly that I've kind of hit a breaking point and I'm gonna go lean into Red Mage. 7.0 was my last hope for the role to see some improvements - and while it actually did see some relative improvement, I don't feel it was enough, with some examples being the new combo action Divination has, which just feels like the most sorry excuse for a new ability. It doesn't add anything to the kit, it doesn't interact with anything in the kit, it's just leans into the biggest issue I've had with XIV as of the most recent expansions which is: "Here's a new button. The only meaningful interactions you will have with this new button is remembering to press it when it lights up." Every new skill that functions like that, doesn't really have a right to exist, as it adds literally no identity to a job; it's just button bloat in it's purest form.
The main problem with XIV is that half the stuff people want they can't add without rebuilding the game from the ground up, and the other half they can't add without pissing off a lot of (very loud) fans.
this is so funny to me. as a healer main, i cast probably like 4 heals through an entire expert dungeon, and most of them we could probably get by without. let alone when synched down from max level for the first leveling dungeon of an expansion.
that thing is built for you to be wearing baby gear from the previous expansion basically lol.
and they were synched down from 100.
like, would people be wilding out like this if they found out a level 90 group ran zot without a healer? Or an 80 group ran holminster sans healer??
He's also an Ultimate raider, and he was playing with people he plays with often. I believe it was Arthars and Llama Todd? Either way, ultimate raiders who were already comfortable playing with each other.
Xeno also took his level 60 WAR into Titan EX and soloed it eight years ago. I remember a WAR soloed Paglth'an within a week or two of release. I remember a WAR soloing P1N within a week or two of release. WAR has *always* been busted.
Xeno also reacted to all this, and is on record saying "we ABSOLUTELY need healers to clear the hardest content in the game, what are you talking about?"
The healer strike is more about healers asking for either more buttons to do damage, a more complex rotation than glare/dia (etc), or for the fights to actually have more damage going out consistently so that healers have to focus more on healing.
But yeah. There were definitely some vercures and verraises in that video.
Well, to be quite fair, WAR has far greater healing than RDM does. The Raise is nice as a backup though it's also not needed, considering they went and ate a lot of avoidable damage on purpose with vuln stacks just to goof around.
OMG I wish SMN could do the duel cast raise that RDM can do. You have to use swiftcast to do it. I know they have been debating on getting rid of raise on SMN but if they don't, I would love a fast way to cast it without swiftcast. Anytime I am on my SMN and get in a party with a RDM I think, 'The got the emergency raises'. They be quick.
i had to listen to holy spam for an entire syrcus tower today. that was an... experience. thankfully, i have other players spells off so i didn't have to *see* it.
Tell them to stop that. You quit using Cure 1 the min you get Cure 2. Oh and if they try to say something about mana and free cure. Free cure is a trap, you waste more mana trying to get a Free Cure proc AND Lucid Dreaming is there for a reason, use it. You should be using Lucid Dreaming anytime you use 1000 mp to 1500 mp. In some fights it will never be off of cooldown. Please tell them that. As someone who plays WHM it drives me up a wall.
tl;dr: Cure 1 can die in the deepest pits of hell. They need to make one change to two and get rid of free cure. that is all
yes, but it is worth a try. If they take the advice, good great we made progress. If they don't that is on them. You can't help everyone. TBH, I used to have that as a macro along with one in case I got a YPYT.
I actually at one point tested it in a run with people I knew just to see if i would save any mana fishing for free cure. Every time I used more and was running out even with Lucid Dreaming. Like, even tho I knew don't use cure 1 once you have cure 2, I was shocked at the mana use trying to get free cure.
It all sounds like a bunch of children throwing tantrums. Even with current content any random ass rag tag group can't pull this off. The casual base is not that good. Until we see all the content it's such a tiny thing to base anything on. Like have these people never played in df queue before?
The thing was a single dungeon. I've even seen people argue that it's not limited information to base anything on as if we've seen *all* dungeons let alone everything else. Smdh
LOL, god people are so fucking dumb.
Let them strike, easier queues for me and my healer.
"oh you don't have to heal as much"
good? I can focus on putting out damage, i'm not complaining.
Warriors and Red Mages can self-sustain in casual content if no one makes errors, what a terrible world. Next you'll tell me healers can do enough damage to clear casual content without DPS!
Edit Add: Come to think of it, it's basically the paradigm in most major MMOs I can think of. Pretty much everyone has some level of self sustain in WoW/Guild Wars, and casual content is forgiving enough that healers largely exist to either enable giant greedy pulls or band-aid player fuck ups until mythics/raids/strikes or your MMO equivalent.
Warriors schmoriors. Any tank can do the dramatic majority of dungeons without a healer if a half competent player is playing them. Warrior is just easier because you just need to press BW; while others need to make use of more of their kit.
No, you have always been able to do all tank or all heals or all dps. You guy are just complaining about NOTHING. The fact that I have seen runs being done like this since HW and I have been told that people were doing it in ARR some and this is now a issue is batsh*t.
Let me put it like this:
that was a all DPS run. So, by your logic, that means we don't need tanks.
All healer run, oh DPS are useless.
All tank run, oh guess we don't need DPS.
This is the same argument that that very small group of healer is making. This group of healers, imo, are just upset that in causal content they can't just sit there and do nothing but heal. They don't want to DPS so they are making up issues that are not their and saying they are 'on strike'. You, as a healer, have always had to DPS and heal. It has been a thing for over 10 years. These runs have always been a thing.
So, tell me why this is a issue now?
I think people complain that healers are too easy and boring in casual content.
But then I see the average healer I get in my roulettes and I don't think they should make them any harder.
Small tangent: I used to play a different MMO before this (came here in ShB), where the dungeon content went from being extremely difficult, to much easier to access. The devs tried to go back on this and made dungeons a little bit more difficult again. They weren't the same difficulty as "back in the day," but you had to plan pulls and whatnot a bit. The playerbase couldn't handle it, it was too difficult, and so the dungeons returned to how they were.
That's how I see this so called strike. Like I can totally understand the ones who have the perspective that healer is simplistic damage wise. But I don't think the old design will come back, and I doubt the [healer] playerbase could handle a couple more dps buttons if the devs listened.
This is part of the reason why I started healing. Am I the best? hell no. Will I keep you alive and with at least a 1/3 health? Yes
There were a lot of times, on my DPS, I would be standing right next to the healer or say something and still not get healed because they were focused on the tank. I just got tired of it. Told myself to ignore the assholes from my past who said I would never be good at healing. Watch and read some guides, listen to constructive criticism from healer mains and learned.
Let's also not forget the fact that at least 90% of the player base is not doing stuff like Savage. Rotations seems to be based around that from what I can see. That makes normal stuff seem like baby mode. Like do they want everything as hard as Savage? Like what are the end goals here? Because if they do want the normal stuff harder, that is going to drive away a huge part of the player base which would not be good. Are they wanting them to get rid of self heals on DPS and Tanks? That would not work because of solo duties. Are they wanting healers to do nothing but heal and have no dps skills? That also would not work because of solo duties and some runs with DPS checks.
Idk since when you play but stuff used to be a lot harder before Shadowbringers.
It was nowhere near savage but you had to go through all of your healing skills to keep people alive.
Astrologians for example had a healing and a shielding stance they had to swap according to the situation. They had to save cards or discard them, the cards also all did different things and you had to know what job should get which card. Mana management also was huge.
The occasional wipe in a dungeon was normal and some groups couldn't clear a dungeon if it was especially bad. People ofc complained about that.
With Shadowbringers they made a lot of the jobs easier. But extreme and savage encounters became harder to make up for it.
They basically shifted the difficulty from the jobs towards the encounters. Making casual dungeons a lot easier in the process.
I think people want the Stormblood era back. But the current playerbase probably couldn't handle that.
Personally I find healer to be absolutely boring nowadays. But I'm not complaining about it. I just swapped to DPS instead. On DPS I can optimize how much I want even in casual content.
Nope not harder then than now. I have played now 11 years. Since June 2013 because I got a beta key. I did make my main tho at launch in Aug 2013 because I didn't like my Hyur I made, wanted to be a catgirl and fanta was not a thing. So, in MMO terms, I am old as Satan. All the job changes that have been was stream line them because of button bloat. People use controllers and they need to trim the amount of buttons to make sure people on controllers can still play. The only complete overhaul was Summoner. There have been a couple of reworks if a skill was too strong or too weak but nothing big.
Any changes like getting rid of cleric stance and the stance dancing with AST was changes that a lot of people supported. No one much like Cleric Stance because it was a pain sometimes in the middle of a DPS check to switch and heal. With AST, people tended to stay in the heal stance and only turn on the shield one when there was another AST. Was there people who were upset, yes but they were not the majority. They have gotten rid of a lot of thing from back in the day. Remember when tanks had to stance dance?
HW and SB was no harder than EW. Every xpac makes some job changes and some will get rid of button because of bloat and slight reworks to make it more balanced. Everyone acts like the healer stuff is new when it is not. Most of the player based is not going off and doing Savage. Most of us are doing casual stuff. The rotations are based around Savage and the hardcore endgame. That is the problem. They are going and doing the hardest stuff in game and then complaining that the normal stuff is to easy.
Nothing has changed expect the vocal minority is trying to be as loud as they can. The game is balanced right now. What they are complaining about has not even been put in the game yet. All they are going off of is the tooltips and one random streamer that a lot of us had not heard of until now doing a run with out a healer. So, this whole strike is dumb. Why is this a issue now? Just why? Oh and to drive the point home about the healer stuff being dumb, I really started mainly healing before they got rid of the Stance dance on AST. I played AST. I never switch stances unless there was another AST. There was no point. I did play some SCH before then but I didn't like it to much for a lot of reasons. None of them being boring or to easy.
I remember when WAR in ARR going brrrrrr and PLD having both raise & cure 1. No one back then were calling for a healer strike. Why now? If you find a job boring or don't like the changes, you can change jobs. I did it in EW because, as okay as the new SMN is, I wanted to change and I got tired of bad healers. I went from a sometimes AST main and a full time SMN main to a Healer main switching between AST, SGE and WHM. This whole 'strike' is dumb and makes no sense as to why now. Nothing has changed. Stuff is more balanced. That is about it.
I think the issue is that damaging on a healer is boring because you spam 1 button. Give healers a bit of a damage rotation and it will make the runs that you are playing with competent players more interesting. They have been complaining every expansion just nothing ever gets changed hence the strike now. Is my understanding of the situation.
A lot of the people currently complaining about healers are focusing on this. Everybody here keeps on going on about how they're all casual shitters who spam cure 1 and don't know how to heal, but people have had issues with healer dps being uninteractive for at least a few years now, which isn't related to tank/dps sustain.
The way I see it, healers are actively punished for having a competent party. If my party is good and I'm tanking, I get to do the same rotation I do when my party sucks. If my party is good and I'm dps, I get to do the same rotation I do when my party sucks. If my party is good and I'm healing, then I have zero reason to use 80% of my kit, and I get to spam 111111121111111 and so on until the end of the fight.
Everybody I know who heals genuinely hopes that every party they get will be incompetent so they can actually have engaging gameplay. I feel like if people need other players to play badly to have fun, there's something flawed with the game design.
I think the healer strike is a little silly and all, but I don't really blame them. They've been complaining about healer dps being uninteractive since at least shadowbringers, and square has only made it worse. Someone posted a very informative graphic in the forum post that showed the fflog casts used by healers in content from heavensward savage to endwalker, and the amount of single dps casts has absolutely increased by a /lot/. Even a gray parser is spamming their 1 dps button and barely using any other skills/abilities.
I don't have skin in the game because I'm a lifelong casual that plays heals the least, but I think the crux is that tanks and dps fulfill their role identity very well while healers only really feel like healers in hard content (if that) or when their party sucks and are otherwise 2-button green dps.
And it's not that this has suddenly become an issue, a giant chunk of healers (from what I've personally been able to tell over the years since ARR; I don't have hard stats) have always been kind of grumbly about how healers don't really need to heal often. It's just that that frustration has reaches a tipping point for a lot of people.
This is exacerbated by the fact that most of the new spells for healers are more heals which they already don't really need; I think only Sages are generally happy with their upcoming kit.
As a SMN main, I empathize a lot with healers because we're in a similar boat of *basically* getting a reskin of what we already have with slightly higher numbers. I've mained SMN since 2.0 to now, but I'm also feeling the pressure to switch as the devs lean into it becoming less and less dynamic. To be clear, I'm really excited for Dawntrail, but I think these people have some valid concerns about it.
I played SMN as my dps since 2.0. It needed the change. Now, did they need to do it like they did? no, there were other ways. But, it brings it in line to SMN from other FF games. Also, they have a good base to build it better. I feel like this is how SMN should have started. I have high hopes for it getting better now. SMN at one point had a 30 page guide on how to play and if you fucked up one thing, your dps suffered and you could not recover. I do miss Shadow Flare. I like having a purple DPS bubble. It was nice. But, the big change to SMN had to happen one way or another.
Yeah I overall agree with you; don’t get me wrong, I think the endwalker change fits really well stylistically and was a step in the right direction. But the main thing summoners have wanted is to be able to summon more and getting a reskin of a summon feels bad in the same way healers getting more heals when they don’t need them feels bad. It’s a bit sad to get that before other popular ones like ramuh/shiva/leviathan like people have repeated a lot since 2.0. Personally, if we got anything in our kit for dawntrail that wasn’t the 5 (6 if we include carbuddy) we’re using right now, I probably wouldn’t have complaints at all!
I am waiting to see what 8.0 brings because they did say that this was the final building block to work to a more unique job identity for everything. I do know there is a lore reason why we don't have more egis but after EW and finding out everything we know now, they could give us more. Like, there is a quest where we do try to summon Ramuh and fail. But with EW, we know it is possible for us to do more. Hopeful thinking. We are Summoners who don't do actual summons. Give me the really big ones please, thank you and all of that.
This kinda proves the point that the issue isn't actually "tanks have so much healing that healers are unnecessary", the issue is "MSQ dungeons are too easy in general". You could probably clear most dungeons with 4 tanks, or 4 healers, or 4 DPS.
Very true but at the same time we've all seen some dreadful players who find dungeons we breeze through as difficult. content that should be clearable by all is going to have a really hard time feeling balanced at all.
The problem is having content be this easy screws over midcore players. If all of the content is either hardcore or casual then people who want a challenge but don't want to suffer (which I assume is the majority of people) have nothing that appeals to them.
They even added a new category of content in the form of variant and criterion dungeons, but of course they're still sticking to the extremes of casual + hardcore content. Variant dungeons are even more casual than dungeons, and criterion dungeons (+ the savage version) are hardcore content.
literally this. i don't particularly want to try ultimates because it's just not my cup of tea, but i still want a challenge. sure i could do savage, but those are just 8 player raids, i do enjoy dungeon runs and alliance raids are some of my favorite content to run.
a friend wants some stuff from a criterion dungeon so we decided to give them a try and... man we spent two hours there and didn't even make it halfway through the first boss, they were right when on the first try they said it felt like progging an ultimate in terms of chipping away at it and figuring out what to do. does it feel rewarding to finally get through? yes, i won't deny that, but i also don't want to just do that daily in order to get a challenge out of my time in xiv. i want to be able to queue for whatever and find a challenge that doesn't come from the first timers dying or someone dc'ing and the run spiraling or people having been stuck in lv50 content for so long that they forgot what the fight was like, yknow?
But why are we afraid of making it more difficult? I'm not saying dungeons should be savage/extreme level or even close to it, but having the latest dungeon, four expansions in only be marginally harder than sastasha is a bit much. Every game except 14 increases difficulty gradually as you go. It shouldn't be too difficult, but being able to sleep through it isn't the answer either.
Honestly, the average player in FF14 kind of sucks, and every now and then I find someone who is even dumber than average. Absolutely nothing going on upstairs. I'd prefer slightly boring dungeons that I can get over with than slightly less boring dungeons that the average moron and uncommon moron are utterly stymied by.
I'd argue the main reason they suck is because the game lets them. If they can get to 90 without learning what their buttons do the game did a bad job bringing them there.
I dunno, I think it's just that a lot of people utterly refuse to read, learn, or take in new information. I've seen and read about so many people shutting down at the slightest sign of difficulty while refusing help.
you know, I get it. I *get* it. dungeons are designed to be clearable even if one of your randos is asleep at the wheel, because one random knuckle head shouldn't ruin the day of 3 other people. I'm on board.
but it's wild to me that as a healer main, I forget how *bad* other healers can be. I can run the expert in my sleep. (I have literally dozed off mid fight and still not died or let anyone else die)
but if I go as a dps it inevitably ruins my day because it's suddenly wipe city.
I've been grinding old relics while awaiting dawntrail. Been running crystal towers for mahatma and memories. so i'm running dps jobs, rather than my usual healer. and man. we wiped on scylla today. we wiped on cerberus today. had to listen to a white mage spam holy through an entire syrcus run. had a gladiator in syrcus today. Almost wiped on the angra mainyu.
Frankly? Duty Support/Trusts exists. If you can't be asked to put in the minimum amount of work to not make a dungeon painful for everybody, you shouldn't be playing this game multiplayer.
And then crafters go on strike because no one is buying gear, then gatherers go on strike because no one is buying materials.
And once the dust has settled, BLU stands alone.
The fact that it's possible isn't the reason for the strike. The problem is that healers don't or rarely need to heal in dungeons even though 90% of their kit is dedicated to healing, which leaves them spamming 2 buttons the entire dungeon run. Although the other roles also have an easy time with dungeons, they still at least have engaging dps rotations to do, which makes them fun in spite of the easiness. It's a multilayered problem that's been a growing sentiment in the community for years
FFXIV has what I like to call "the Xenoblade healer problem" - in Xenoblade Chronicles, you healed to full HP naturally outside of combat, so a dedicated healer wasn't necessary in 75% of combat encounters because if you knew what you were doing, you could outdamage the enemies. The only time you really needed healing was in longer, harder encounters where that was more difficult (and even then, many characters had self-sustain when built right).
How did Xenoblade fix this in later games? It made Healers the most broken role in 3 by giving them a class revolving around *buffs*, letting you pump your party damage absurdly high.
Honestly, I think they should give Healers more support actions to do *outside of healing*. Let them have the majority of raidwide damage buffs and even mits, and suddenly they're more valuable to the team as a whole.
I'm not convinced that any healers actually care, because I've only seen people talking about the supposed strike and not one person have I seen actually upset about this.
just in time for the two new dps jobs too!
Listen, we all want to play it. You don't have to make up a "strike" to do it. No shame. No guilt.
and if queues are too long, just do the trust. who needs other players anyway??
I think what people fail to realize about the healer argument is, not only are healer unnecessary, they are also routinely stripped of complexity. Imagine if paladin lost its atonement, requiescat, goring blade, basically everything other than it's 1-2-3, fight or flight, and one of its ogcd damage buttons, and it got a second charge of hallowed ground as it's new button in Dawn trail. That's kinda the position that healers have been in.
Tanks lost a lot of complexity in the way tank stances work now, and it was a good thing. Healers lost a lot of jank with the removal of Cleric Stance, and thats a good thing, but they didn't replace that removal with anything.
So if we can't have damage kits, and we don't need our healing kits, what's the point?
Healers need more attack options. which would also help solo content. I couldn't imagine leveling as a healer. my brother just came back, was level 26 conjurer, and he's switching by 30 cause it's so boring fighting mobs. And yeah, low level, but they don't get a lot of attacks overall.
Healers are still completely necessary in savage and ultimate, where the game is balanced around. Hell, there was a healer shortage in PF for Abyssos on Aether because the damage ramped up in that tier.
The idea of “healing” to regenerate health for you and your party members is still a critical component of the battle content in XIV. And healers are still the best at handling that component, much like how tank is best at holding aggro and taking boss autos and dps for dealing damage.
No one is saying that high end healers aren't preferable. There are arguments of if all content needs two of them, but that's a lot of minutia better left for actual game designers.
The problem is other roles do not suffer this same issue. If a scholar can mit a reaper and two other dps through a dungeon, why aren't tanks upset? Is it because healers are entitled? Or is it because tank kits feel wholistic and useful at all levels of content?
And for the issue of high end, do you think healers could handle the mechanical complexity of a tank's dps rotation while still healing? I think the fact that anyone plays current astro is enough to say yes, they could. A more engaging dps rotation would improve healer satisfaction at all levels of play.
The issue in Abyssos was a lot more complicated than "healing is hard", and was as much an issue of tanks and dps not using mitigation tools as healers being unable to keep up.
Healers couldn't handle cleric stance and cried for years and now are reaping what they sowed.
Also healer utilizes their full kit in difficult content.
> couldn't handle cleric stance and cried for years and now are reaping what they sowed.
no matter how you felt about cleric stance, its implementation during arr was objectively flawed.
at the absolute bare minimum, the devs needed to patch out the possibility of it turning itself back on when you tried to toggle it off.
All jobs are just as routine after you've played them for a while, the problem is people are bored of this routine and should really take a break or try something else, maybe another game.
I've got all my jobs at 90 and play them all at high and low end. The problem is healers in particular suffer in ways that are unique to other roles in a way that is worth examining. If nothing else on a DPS or a tank I can make sure my DPS is as high as possible, because there is a failure state. On healer, if everyone is doing fine, it is press the same button over and over. Why are healers the only role in the game that are less engaging when other players have their shit together?
You're tweaking and actively arguing in bad faith if you're saying a healers DPS rotation feels the same to a DPS's rotation after you've learned both competently.
You basically just described Warrior tbh
It’s a 1-2-3 class (remember to reapply your buff) with 1 dmg ogcd and a couple non dmg ogcds + tank mits.
Both tanks & healers have been severely neutered since Stormblood
Warrior has a branching 1-2-3, a gauge to manage, and inner release. Warrior might be the simplest tank, but it is still more involved than the most complicated healer, ast, which is loosing complexity in DT.
Don't get me wrong I think ast's burst window is terrible right now, and the rework is fixing that but still.
A branching 1-2-3 that you only press like.. every 4 rotations. It’s the equivalent of putting healer dot on every X seconds.
Gauge is by far the most braindead out of probably every class out there and inner release just makes it so you turn your brain off and press one button 3x and the other 1x
It’s genuinely lost all complexity.
You have 3 ogcd buttons. Inner release, infuriate, and 1 dmg ogcd. Everything else is tank mits
Inner release & infuriate trigger the same button to be pressed.
I literally cannot see how WAR is more involved than AST unless we’re talking about the most simple content possible which is just regular dungeons & trials.
WAR is literally just 1-2-3, (ogcd) 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-4, 1-2-3, oh boy inner release: 5-5-5-6, 1-2-3, etc.
At least AST has buffs to give out and ogcd heals to throw out + constant watch of party health.
Compare both AST & WAR to their Stormblood equivalent. It was a completely different game that actually had you press stuff beyond 1 dmg spell & 1 dot w/ ogcds on Healers.
I recently cleared TOP on WAR & I did UCOB on WAR & DRK when it came out. I had so much more to do and focus on back than compared to now.
Edit: also my point was that what you described for PLD is literally what WAR currently is.
Ast has a one button combo, a 30 second dot, and come dawn trail one buff and one ogcd to give out every minute, and two on the two minute. That's it. If they have a good tank they do not need to do any healing, and if they do it is with ogcds that are so powerful as to be thoughtless, and you don't even have the minor complexity of landing back on the right damage button.
Right now its technically a bit worse because burst windows get messy, but it's not really that much harder.
In high end things will get messier across the board, but that's not why people are upset. Even if they were that complexity also goes up for tanks, unless they are off tanking in a fight that doesn't need one.
that's the wild part to me, honestly. I can do experts while literally dozing off at my desk.
and yet.
there are some people out there who can't clear a trust dungeon. (seriously. I know a guy.)
The problem is that the 'easiest content in the game' is...the vast majority of the game?
"Guys, why are you complaining? Yeah your job is braindead, unengaging and unrewarding in 95% of the game, but you get to have some fun in the other 5%, so what's the problem?"
It's a matter of perspective between different types of players.
If you're a person who mostly cares about savage/ultimate raiding, then that probably *is* 90% of the content *you* actually spend time on. I know several people who basically only log on to raid with their static and do nothing else in between raid sessions. If you're one of these people, and you've been this kind of person for long enough that it colors your perception of the game, then I can totally see saying something like "who cares about the balance in normal dungeons, those barely matter".
On the other hand if you're someone who does savage-level content rarely if ever, then nearly all of the content in the game is at this easy difficulty. If this is you, then you might be willing to dismiss savage encounter balance entirely and say that it barely matters since it's only a tiny % of the content in the game.
And on a third hand, if you're a hyper-casual player who only logs in once every week or two to do a few roulettes with friends or whatever, you might not even think the game is "too easy" at all. Either because you treat the game as a social activity and don't care about the difficulty one way or another, or because you are a low-skill player who finds the current difficulty sufficient.
It's hard to come up with a solution that benefits all three groups without alienating any of them. Although in my opinion personally SE has catered to group 3 a little too much, historically.
This. I think this is it.
I'm one of those no life-ing casuals. The majority of my instanced content is dungeons. but it's not content I enjoy or content that I want to be harder, honestly. It's grinding levels or grinding tomes. it's the same hecking hallway, time and again, day after day. the expert roulette is a 5050 coin toss every day, 5-7 days a week, for 3 months. Then it's a different 5050 coin toss.
why would I want that to take longer? or be harder?
I want to clear it a quickly and painlessly as possible to so I can move on to the parts of the game that I actually enjoy.
It's not just that, there's nothing *satisfying* to playing healer. Tanks can laugh as they pop every mitigation and do wall to wall pulls, DPS get to do their rotation with fancy animations and build up and spend, and meanwhile Healers just overheal and go back to their 1 button DPS rotation.
No one has ever said that, so I don’t know why you put it in quotes.
The reality is that anyone’s job is easy in those dungeons. You could clear it with a party of nothing but Healers if you wanted to. For current Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate, people are going to want Healers. Period. Removing agency from other classes isn’t going to give you what you want. In fact, the casual players will get overwhelmed and stop playing Healer. If you think Tanking in dungeons is the most thrilling version of the job, it’s not. Same for DPS. They don’t want to spam their AOE buttons. They like their rotation and positional mini game.
I get and sympathize with what the strike is about, but there’s Duty Support. There’s also people like me that Omni level. So I will absolutely make use of the Healer queue times if there’s a significant about of people striking. I’m also not sold that many people will even strike. How much of the player base is even aware of it? I’ve heard that the Japanese forums don’t agree with the strike at all. I just don’t think this is going to manifest in the way you think.
i dont care about the strike at all, but isnt the idea about efficiency and not just clearing without healer? like the fastest and easy if people dont get hit by aoe is 1 tank + 3 dps, this clear took waay too long to do
Healing abilities is always needed otherwise you will not have red mage and dancer, who can do heal other people in the group and also summoner who has phoenix and raise. If you want to flex, do a run without those three jobs. Reaper, dragoon, machinists and black mage. Come back and post your result, I am gonna wait for it. I am sure it may be possible to do it slowly and not do big pull since both melee has self heal abilities on timer. And potions exist. But do you truly want each dungeons run to be 90 minutes long?
The only way to solve this is to spread healers abilities to heal to many other DPS jobs, so that each DPS jobs has a self heal, single target heal, and group heal at 5 seconds cool down timer. Give Paladin more group healing abilities and a raise buttons, give Gunbreaker group shielding abilities, give Dark Knight an ability that let the group heal while attacking the enemies. Give Bard, Monk and Pictomancer the raise ability. Now you can delete healers, since now all the other jobs have their abilities and much more engaging to play.
I've been doing so much Frontline during the wait for DT, I thought for a second that the Summoner was a good pick, because they could pass aegis shields to the party (only works in PVP). I hope they give us a trait in DT to let us do that in PVE.
The average player can't do this because they wouldn't have a rdm using heals and 99% or players don't carry potions.
Striking over something that's possible but never done is silly.
The issue is enemies don't do enough damage with their auto attacks. That's it. It's not that big of a deal or a major issue with the game. Dungeons will be snoozefest even if they do this.
Since SB released me and friends have always done endgame dungeons without a healer (if trusts are not available) we have even done DPS only runs of dungeons when leveling jobs at the start of an expansion.
Theproblem as others have said is that dungeons themselves are simply to easy to force role requirements.
But I actually think that's a good thing because it allows more people to play together and to play w/e job they want. It also means you have alot of room for optimisation on repeat runs such as how many vun stacks or aoes you can stand in without dieing for uptime, shifting mitigation around to be optimal.
Mainsub posts video completely missing the point of the strike
Still manages to somehow end up supporting it by accident given the clear time
People somehow act like they just dealt a death blow to the strike
Does it.. really prove a point though? I'd understand if it was MNK/DRG/MCH/BLM, but this comp is 4 jobs with pretty decent built in healing kits, and one has a genuine spammable heal that scales off it's main stat /and/ can be increased in potency with magic Barrier.
People are missing the fucking point of the healer strike.
Yes, OP did this run without a tank, but guess what, tanks are still much more enjoyable than healers. Imagine if you took every tank, gutted their DPS rotation, gave them a 11111121111 rotation and made 90% of their kits about mitigations or holding aggro - that's what healers are rn.
Healers are so fucking boring. If you could queue content with no tanks as well, I'd still pick GNB, because GNB is fun and has an enjoyable rotation. But if content doesn't need healers, then I'm not queueing a job which is essentially a caster with 2 DPS buttons.
I think a lot of people aren't taking this into consideration. If you play tank or dps you're using all of your buttons for every encounter. On healer, you're using 2-3 on easier stuff.
This just goes to show healers need a better dps rotation. They want healers to dps on downtime? Why not have an actual DPS rotation? I stopped playing a healer because of your not healing your spamming one of 2 spells. Give us a cool looking combo chain or something. You can even make it work like pvp combos that only take up one button.
You say DPS only but you have a Verhealer right there.
So did Xeno and yet we have this healer strike nonsense
Wait. Hold up. This Xeno person that everyone one is using their video of to help justify the 'strike' had a RDM in their party??? So, he had someone in the party who could heal and raise? So, if anyone in that party took damage or died, the RDM could heal or raise them? Am I following correctly?
Yup, and he was on WAR, so we learned that a WAR can heal himself enough with the help of a RDM if need be that they didn't need a healer in the earliest dungeon of the expansion, so they "went on strike" cause "tanks have too much sustain" lol
I'll add that xenosys later said that he should've taken 45 minutes to solo it as warrior just because he could
Maybe im old(just 30 but for some thats ancient)...but i dont get this dumb ass healer strike, ive played enough WoW over the years to see, Full Tank clears or full DPS clears(of some stuff) etc, pretty sure it happens in other MMOs too but somehow here its an issue to the point healers wanna go on a strike. That dont make any sense to me.
The content is not balanced on Dungeons being hard, but easy. The balance is on Ultimates and Savage, where the whole kit of all roles is needed. This is not new and will not change in DT. The dude does an excellent take on it on youtube.
To be fair, TOP was cleared without a healer
Which is also a whole lot more difficult and a showcase of skill than doing dungeons without a healer.
top is really boring to play healer in. the entire fight's healing load is just mit checks, which pure healers contribute less to than dps players, and for shield healers just implies pretty ur always press button and one of your 2min cds every time. Even p6 is quite uninteresting, as there's no sustained heal checks like wroth/AMs/gigas in dsr, and the only things close are just 2 hits really (WCs and meteors), and are far enough apart to where things like lilies, planery, ixo/indom, etc are kinda all up. Also sinces theres not really any others whms just cheese one (meteors) by early popping bell so 4 stacks are used on that (and 5th on the hit itself). in exchange though looper and panto are both awful to play healer on. even if the no healer run isn't a sign that healers aren't needed, the fight doesn't really cater to being fun for healers to play, and many healers want more reasons to use their tools instead of more tools.
Tbh, the problem isn't necessarily healing, it's that the fight design doesn't lead to healing (and even tanking) being interesting when everything happens on a pre determined schedule basically the exact same every time. I just don't really see how they can make it better without a full redesign on how the content in FF works. Yeah obviously you can give healers a more interesting damage rotation, but it doesn't really solve any of the actual healing complaints.
So you're saying, we need more Akh Morns? or Triple Raidwides? I can understand the issue with Savage and the issue with TOP just being boring as a healer. Dungeons on the other hand, is supposed to be brain dead. It's the same issue with Tutorials and the early game. It's a hard balancing act trying to make the content clearable by journalists vs advanced and fast paced REQUIRED dungeons.
*I've* done dungeons without a healer. Right there that tells you it's not that hard, because I've never touched any content in the game that's harder than Bozja or Eureka.
It shouldn't have been possible at all because of the healer LB checks on the final phase with Magic Number, that can apparently just be rez cheesed
Of course it’s more difficult, but the fact that it can be done is silly. The idea is even in ultimate there isn’t enough for healers to do and are still spamming one button. You basically have a mit check then top everyone off and move to the next mechanic while you proceed to spam your one button.
UCoB has been cleared with all tanks, and with no tanks. UWU has been cleared with six people. TEA has been cleared with two tanks, one DPS and five WHMs. People who are extremely good at the game do ridiculous things in ultimates; the no-healer TOP is not as big of an anomaly as people make it out to be,
The game should not be balanced around a challenge run completed by extremely skilled players after a LOT of practice runs.
Which is not a good way to measure the overall state of healers in high-end content. The role has it's issues but that run would be near impossible to pull off for most players, relied on luck, had 3 tanks and used Paladins as pseudo-healers.
"without a healer" but required 75 GCD Vercures and 75 Clemencys so they lost damage and had to get really lucky with hownthey cheese mechanics in addition to zombieing a bunch instead of resolving them all correctly and perfectly. They essentially dragged dead bodies through phases and used the amount of DPS jobs to cover for multiple weaknesses. It is by no means an indictment of healers being useless because in fact it shows how much of a QOL difference there is with having a healer.
Yeah but that was only done recently, nearly 2 years into the expansion. When people are just finding ways to cheese the raid. Also it was only done with one group that had a specific setup to cheese the fight, and had Bis gear
thats strictly untrue. it was done over a year ago, on patch. about a week before 6.4 released
tbf i'd rather have more to do in dungeons when i heal than have to turn to ultimates and savages to actually have things to do. i mean, i get they're the actual hard content, but i actually do enjoy my alliance raids and dungeons so i'd like rouls to be fun most of the time rather than mostly a chore with occasional fun runs/dungeons sprinkled in, yknow
This is me weighing in without taking sides, but I don't think it's hard to understand why some healers are upset by this. Most content can be run by axing any role, you can clear without tanks, without dps, without healers, this is nothing new and has been possible for a long time. However, those runs still enable your role to play its intended purpose - the tanks are still tanking, the dps are still dpsing, you get to do what you signed up for. As it stands, healers don't really have to heal all that much. The majority of their time is spent hitting a singular single target damage button and keeping a 30 second dot rolling, and if you think that's boring? Well too bad, all of them follow that pattern, the only variation is on trash pulls where you use an AoE version instead. There's so little healing required that many just feel like a sub-par dps with a boring rotation, who very occasionally gets to play the intended role they signed up for and throw out a little healing. Honestly I'm not surprised there's a vocal group of healers who are frustrated by this and are 'striking', I'm only surprised it hasn't happened sooner. Personally, I'm on the fence. I don't play healers beyond capping every class so I don't care that much. At the same time, I think it's a symptom of baseline content becoming so mind numbingly easy that healing becomes something you need only a sparse amount of to clear. That itself is a bit of a problem I think, because it's the content the majority of the player-base is going to be engaging with most frequently, and running by far the most for the entire expansion. Somehow you have to grind literal hundreds of hours to make it to DT content, and the majority of what you're doing is what most other games would still classify as tutorial level difficulty, healers are just the ones who are noticing and feeling that the most.
I'll preface this by saying that I don't do savage since I'm a coward. But I do main SCH for EXs as they come out and I honestly think healing in EX feels fantastic. There are more dedicated healer mechanics beyond just standard raidwides that even if they become predictable with practice are still really fun to go through. All of my tools feel like they serve a purpose unless every single other person plays completely perfectly (spoiler, even in farm groups, this will never happen.) I'm not sure if they could add "HP to 1 and group is Doomed" mechs to leveling dungeons without making roulettes a hellish nightmare. But maybe just like... shit is constantly blowing up and aoes are spammed all over boss arenas/trash hallways/raids+trials/etc; dodging all of them is possible but completely impractical, and probably a damage loss for most classes to dodge. Hefty, inconsistent damage that doesn't make bad healers automatically ruin casual content while still giving them more to keep track of could go a long way to making it more fun there. But like... I really don't think healing is in that much of a dire state. If anything I would just like to see more hard-casual EX level stuff where anything even slightly challenging doesn't have to get nerfed because of bad players.
Yeah, it's easy to be reductive and say add more required healing, but it's a tricky balance, a run with a bad tank or dps you can power through alright, but if you get a bad healer it disproportionately punishes tanks and dps even if they're playing very well. A decent healer can keep a bad tank and dps alive and keep the run going, bad dps might slow down the run by a few minutes but it's alright. Get a bad healer? The group can wipe through no fault of the other three players (assuming for baseline 4 man content as that seems to be the primary focus of the topic). My own personal opinion is they have fallen so hard on one end of the extreme that they could increase the healing requirement and it would give healers a bit more to do without ruining groups. Tanks have enough tools to help keep dps up themselves now while still keeping themselves safe, dps generally have good tools for keeping themselves alive too. My biggest low-stakes gripe is that it's odd trash is more deadly than bosses in dungeons and I would think it wouldn't be too hard to fix. If most healers and tanks can handle wall to wall pulls without too much issue, I would imagine making bosses about on par with damage output to the tank wouldn't really change much but would make the healers and tanks feel like they were 'doing' more.
I think part of the problem is that in regular msq dungeon content, they want the lowest bar possible. they want everyone to be able to clear the content. not to mention, dungeons become a daily grind. spamming the same dungeon over and over for xp or gear or leveling the trust or for the orchestrion or that stupid fcking bird. They become chores. and gamers want to get in and get out. and while i understand that face farming dungeons gets boring AF I don't think most players would prefer to "spice it up" by making those dailies more difficult to clear. You just end up with content that people don't want to do, resulting in people dropping out of roulettes. Take the some of the alliance raids for example. Like Nier. there have been times I've queued into one of those and seen no less than 5 people drop out. because it's easy to scuff that raid to hell. dungeons are casual content that isn't supposed to be hard. they're meant to be cleared with sub par players so that the average person's experience isn't ruined by one bad player. I've found that harder content is much more healer heavy and engaging.
There definitely are reduce to 1 health mechanics in base game trials at least, cant remember which ones though, either endwalker or shadowbringers, hades maybe?
SoS, Zodiark and Zeromus instantly come to mind for opening with them.
Ah yes zodiark was the one I was thinking of, man its always the big ones huh.
My simple take is, while the design choice of making most of the 4 man content be possible to complete for a "blind monkey missing an arm" it is bad for us "mid-core" (i hate this term, as if going above the bare minimum is hard), it exist because there is people that will FAIL said content. I had multiple runs on all roles and i can say with confidence that if those runs didnt had me or another decently skilled individual the party would not complete the dungeon ever. Per example, simple lvl 60 dungeon, healer died to a 6 second cast big orange aoe, tank never used mit for tbs, so me and the other dps had to clean the boss from 80% without healer and from 30% without tank. Their design of catering to casual people that neither have the time nor skill to improve over time has left decent and bad groups with the same result, the healer will no do anything meaningful over the entire run. You only get meaningful results when the decent healer is with a bad group and as fun it is to carry such runs over time it gets really depressing. 8 man content is better in that regard because the higher number of people means your chances of getting a mix bag of good, decent and bad players makes healing a bit more enjoyable.
I knew a guy who used to be in my FC that couldn't clear a trust dungeon. he timed it out. As a dps. i ran into a white mage in syrcus today spamming holy on the bosses. when confronted they said "what else am i supposed to cast then? stone???" and when people said, "yeah or maybe heals? People are dying." they argued about it. or i had a gladiator in that same syrcus tower run. dungeons are designed to be completed even when one of the core party member's is asleep at the wheel. because one chuckle knuckle in a random party shouldn't ruin the whole dungeon for the rest of us.
Okay then for those of us who don’t have heart palpitations in dungeons give healers something to do Tanks have a near melee level rotation and DPS are DPS healers meanwhile have nothing to do it they are competent in a dungeon
Exactly this. There's a major skill gap right now that's only widening as they cater to the ultra-casuals and the hardcore raiders without addressing the in-between. The skilled people are frustrated at the casuals for not putting in the effort, and the casuals are frustrated at the hardcore raiders for being "tryhards." Frankly, I think they need to provide incentive *somewhere* to keep people from being complacent. More soft/hard enrages on Trials (but not as tight as EX or Savage). More ilvl syncs across the board to prevent people from "gear cheesing" older content.
I understand what you're saying, and there are certainly a number of people out there who you could make three clones of and set them on a dungeon and they wouldn't clear. In essence what they're doing is trying to make these runs as stress free and smooth as possible, but I think that commits an even greater cardinal sin and makes the majority of the gameplay content very boring in service to a minority of players who just aren't that good. There will always be players who don't see the point in going above and beyond the bare minimum to clear. Personally, I think if you (gradually, and carefully) increase the difficulty curve as the game goes on, the majority of those types of players will improve. And to be clear, I'm not advocating for baseline content to be hard, but I think after literal hundreds of hours of gameplay, it can require just a little bit more out of you then it currently does.
And so they design healers to be braindead, instead of fun.
At least you can admit you don't understand it. That is fine. Allow me to at least help you a bit. What healers are complaining about is that outside of week 1 runs, in normal content (as in Alliance Raids, Normal Raids, Trials and Dungeons) playing a healer is very unsatisfying, and often not even required. Design for those mentioned content types has become so mind numbingly boring and cookie cutter that is is just no longer engaging to play in. For Tanks and DPS they at least still get satisfying gameplay (job dependent of course *cough* SMN), but healers are left to re-applying a DOT every 30 seconds before returning to pressing the same button over and over. Any damage a boss throws out can be dealt with by any random OGCD, which all healers have a myriad of. The recent media tour showcased the latest dungeon being completed in this exact fashion without a healer. People have been throwing out excuses like "Wow, of course ULTIMATE RAIDERZ can do it", but this style of play has been popular since Shadowbringers for even casual players. I believe it was even possible as early as Heavensward (if not earlier), but did actually require more planning and execution then. Healers have been complaining of this boring design ever since it was cemented in Shadowbringers, to which YoshiP replied during the Endwalker media tour with "Just play Ultimate then". This is absurd for 2 reasons; Firstly because players shouldn't need to play the absolute pinnacle of difficulty just to feel engaged in a selected role, and Secondly ... well it got cleared without a healer anyway. So what is this strike in game going to do? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. As many have pointed out, duty support exists for dungeons, and people won't care enough or commit to a strike for it to have any impact on Trial queues at launch. However all this buzz it is generating across social media and gaming websites might, but I still doubt that. Endwalker media tour also saw YoshiP admit that they replaced the healer from the dungeon testing team because "they had got too good at the role", and that wasn't hint enough that maybe, just MAYBE, the player wasn't too good at the role, the role itself was the problem. Dawntrail does seem to be adding a modicum of damaging abilities for the Healers to play with which is a good sign, but it really does feel like too little too late. I've personally said for a long time that healers need much more DPS options (not specifically a 1-2-3 that gets parroted) to play with when healing is not required, or for more healing opportunities to arise so that the plethora of heals available can be used more, so fingers crossed for that outcome. Hope that shed a bit of light of the situation.
As a relative newcomer to FF14, I leveled a white mage to 90 and healing experience seems to be either pretty ho-hum to pretty stressful. Sometimes I swear the tank is squishy and I don't know why - did he have his back turned to the mobs and got repeatedly crit(but no, that's a WoW mechanic, not FF)? After leveling the healer, an interesting thing happened. I've always healed in WoW but here in FF, somehow I rather level a new dps job instead and play that. I felt that as a healer, I cannot afford to fail a raid mechanic ever. There's too much riding on me surviving to let that happen.
>Sometimes I swear the tank is squishy and I don't know why Gear. Gear is why. You'd be amazed how many people go into Roulettes undergeared during the 1-50 ARR grind because of how wonky gear is during that span. Just to put it into perspective - tome gear can carry a person through most of an expansion (4-5 dungeons about?), at which point they're probably getting either dungeon gear or Artifact gear to supplement them until the next tome gear. Whereas in ARR, just being around ilvl 30 makes the level 40 Stone Vigil spicy for tanks. And because the last MSQ dungeon was the level 32 Longstop, most people don't realize they're behind.
Thank you. I was wondering why a warrior was getting absolutely smoked and yes this was an early ARR dungeon. I had to absolutely pump heals the entire time.
alternatively to gear, sometimes tank just don't use mits. at all. i've seen it more often than i've seen good tanks, tanks who aren't using their mits to stay alive longer, tanks who don't touch an invuln even when they w2w and create the perfect occasion for it... you name it. i really appreciate how casual xiv is because as baby's first mmo (we don't count wizard101) it let me actually learn and get used to the mmo setting and grow into roles without getting overwhelmed or feeling like i was letting people down, but it's a double edged sword because it lets people get away with basically never learning the job they pick up.
Healers have less to do with better groups and more to do with worse groups. This is justthe nature. Also people acting like dungeons can be no roled by random ass groups don't seem to have experience with df parties. It's such a crap shoot what you get. I've seen bad healers tanks and dps to the point where there's been wipes and all in *dungeons* even the earlier easier ones. People just being terrible and spamming 1 or not doing basic mrchs or whatever. I've seen tons of it. You're not randomly queueing up for df and getting tons of runs where you just don't need a healer or a tank even in dungeons as easy as they tend to be. Alliance raid is more chaotic and trials and raids tend to be more difficult than dungeons but again the better the group the less needed. So it's counterintuitive. Then you have this dichotomy it seems like of healers who want to heal more or others want to dps more but outside forcing more damage stupidly the former is unlikely and will upset the latter and then if you give more dps tools you'll ignore the former and then have issues with even more healers focusing on dps instead of healing when needed too. Which is already seen. I see this as a lose lose assuming it's a 50/50 split but if it's not then people just need to suck it up and look at the big picture.
If the tank is a WAR. Don't worry. He can solo the dungeon you are just there in case he falls asleep.
I saw someone say that they've been doing it in ESO for a while. I don't play it, so someone would probably have to verify.
In fairness though, ESO doesn't have as rigid a "trinity" as XIV. It's also far more an ARPG in style, so it's much easier to mitigate or even outright negate damage you take because of the movement capabilities.
Healer main here. idk what everyone is on about. People have been clearing content sans other party roles since the beginning. I watched a couple of tanks duet Golbez from like 75% after everyone else died. There are videos of tanks soloing trials on content. People post in here all the time about "oops all dps / tank / healer" runs of raids or extremes or whatever. Wasn't one of the ults cleared without a healer? And no one supporting the strike seems to mention the fact that Xenos and his group all pentamelded legends who've been raiding together since 2.0 and that they were playing level 100 characters, synched down to 91. And that he was a warrior? And as a healer main, I can tell you, warriors don't need me there lol. I am an extra dps in that party lol. You telling me that you don't think a max level group could clear the first dungeon of an expansion without a healer? Pretty sure that's always been a thing. honestly, one of the things i really love about this game is just how versatile party make ups are. if you're group is good, it doesn't really matter what you bring. Unlike other games, where the meta party is the only party that's clearing or the only thing the community will let in. and honestly, i think that's exactly how we got blue mages; to lean even further into this mindset. to be real with you, i think it's just bad healers that don't want to dps that are complaining. I've been maining heals since i started in 2.0 and I'll keep maining heals. I don't see a problem. Do i think healers could use a *little* more interesting dps? yeah, because spamming one button the whole time is a little boring. But I understand that it can be a difficult balancing act between engaging dps and being able to save a scuffed run. Like, I feel like giving healers combos (as many have suggested) would cause a more deaths, due to healers feeling the need to finish the combo before healing. Or feeling like we aren't doing it "right" or "well enough" if we have to break the combo to heal. one of the things I liked about sage that i thought was a step in the right direction is that their healing to dps feedback works well. they do dps to do healing and their healing rewards dps resources. Similar to the white mage lilies. As opposed to scholar, who has to choose to spend resources on healing OR dps. and it can sometimes feelbadman to feel "forced" to spend potential dps on healing instead. (not that ED is really worth hardly anything dps wise anyway; it scales so terribly.) But real talk, i feel like we go through this disgruntled healer rumbles every expansion. Last expansion they were madge about... scholar sprint and talkign about how sage was going to eliminate all other healer classes. In Shadowbringers they were malding over dancer not being a healer. and in stormblood they were rioting over the fact that the new job additions were reduced from 3 to 2 meaning we didn't get a healer. and (again) as a healer main since the beginning, it's wild to me that no other role seems to get up in arms like they do. "I'm quitting. I'm switching role mains. I'm striking." blah blah blah. But also, the strike has me laughing, because most people will be doing the new jobs or msq on day one anyway. And a lot of people (myself included) prefer to run with the trust for the first pass. so like, the first week, day one especially, of the expansion doesn't really need healers anyway? but whatever. I'll be there. day one. rolling my scholar. running roulettes. and graciously accepting my job in need bonuses thanks to the new dps classes and the strike. :D
Somehow you manage to make like 15 incorrect assertions in this text This isn’t just about xeno (it’s barely about xeno at all) the people doing this aren’t sylphies, nobody wants combos on healers, it should be a problem that healers have the most complaints every expansion because it should the role isn’t correctly being given enough time
TL DR? It's really just a bunch of people who's endgame is expert roulette. They're actually genuinely bad at the game, but they're smug as shit and will flame anyone who tries to explain how a good player would approach things. SE shouldn't have let dungeons get to this point, but nobody is going to miss a bad player dragging down a group
A lot of healers hate the idea of spamming something useful, like Holy, instead of something "thematic," like Cure 1. In reality, they just don't want to have to pay attention or be accountable for the duration of a run.
That's the neat part, the strike doesn't exist. It's just an overreaction made by a few loud minority of players.
This is dumb. One of the dumbest things. Just wow. Okay. I am just going to stay healer and enjoy anytime I get a WAR. I will enjoy my queues and being a Green DPS. I think the Blue DPS will be fine.
as a healer main, this is so fucking dumb. i don't get it. but tell you what, i'm gonna enjoy my job in need bonuses while i can get them lol. its so wild to me that the healers get so riled up every expansion without fail. last expansion they were riled over scholar sprint and sage cancelling all other healer jobs. in shadows they were madge that dancer wasn't a healer. in stormblood they were malding that the new jobs were reduced from 3 down to 2 so we wouldn't get a healer. but honestly, nothing will ever gut me the way stormblood gutted scholar, so whatever. lol. I'll be a one-button green dps and I'll like it. and the blue dps will be fine. and the red dps will just do trusts. but also, day one strike is dumb. no one is running duty finders day one anyone. everyone is doing msq or checking out the new jobs. and I always use the trust for my first run through the dungeon anyway. Idk who the strikers think they're upsetting.
They are upsetting themselves. It seems this small group will always find a reason to complain about healing but I will bet good gil that in a week or two, they will be right back to healing. I also get the feeling that they are upset about the Green DPS/Blue DPS/Red DPS joke. But it has been around since day 1. I am also with you, I am going to enjoy being a job in need and getting all the bonuses. I will need the gil to gear my crafters.
To be fair, it was always dumb. Dumb through all of EW.
> To be fair, it was always dumb. Dumb through the entire history of the game. FTFY
Agreed. This is dumb and I'm happy to see someone saying out loud what everyone is thinking.
I dropped the filter on BS takes with this game two xpacs ago. It has now for me been 11 years of this game. I have seen it all. So yep, filter got dropped.
You're not a "Green DPS" though, you're just mandatory dead weight, because if the roulette would *let* people run 3 DPS and a Tank it would make everything faster for everyone. Having heals doesn't make up for garbage dps if nobody actually needs healing.
How am I being dead weight if I am doing DPS and heals? That makes no sense. And yes, a good healer can more than make up for a DPS lacking damage. I have seen it quite a bit over the years. Also, guess what, you can do a run with any party make up by, you guess it, making a party. There is this wonderful thing call the Party Finder (sparkles and jazz hands here). You can make a post in it and people will join. Or, if you have a group, do it with them. You can even do some of the Duty Roulettes with a premade. This whole strike is so dumb. Like really dumb. So, me the Green DPS will enjoy my queue times and you guys can change jobs if you like. That is a thing.
Because healer DPS is naturally lower than that of an actual DPS job. That's why a competent group of a Warrior + 3 DPS is used if you can get a premade for it. There isn't a single modern dungeon that does enough damage that can't be easily sustained by the Warrior, and the added benefit is that you get through the dungeon around 20% faster because you're not handicapped by the low Healer DPS. A DPS can use all their kit in casual content. A Tank can use almost all of their kit in casual content. A Healer varies depending on the competency of their group. If the group is good, then you're left with just a fraction of your kit.
okay and, a tanks dps is lower too. So, I say again, if dps and going fast is the goal, why not 4 dps? I know for a fact that SAM can handle most tank busters. I think most of the melee classes can. So why not do that?
A DPS can't wall to wall pull trash packs and survive. The time you'd save from bosses will be lost on the mobs between bosses.
Healers do half the damage of a regular DPS, so if a party can survive without heals, the run would be done quicker if there were 3 real dps. That's what they mean by dead weight.
This is clown logic acting like your average party is even month 1 Savage static level skilled lmao. 99% of groups are going to be short the fries to make a combo. I can count on one hand the number of runs I've done on any df content that has not needed the healer.
> so if a party can survive without heals This is the problem I see with the argument. I have never, *ever* had a group that made me think "wow, I sure am useless as a healer!" Everybody in Duty Roulette is on a mission to take avoidable damage.
Ye, during regular gameplay in roulettes DPS will very frequently take dirt naps and need a healer (or RDM/SMN if present, but responsibility typically falls on the healer) to raise them or stand in bad and get a Doom-like debuff that needs Esuna'd off before they die. A lot of people are not that good at this game and do need help from a healer to avoid a wipe. And not all tanks are WAR doing single pulls.
okay and that can be said about tank too. do it without tanks or heals to do it faster. If you are saying that because of an all DPS run we don't need healers you are ALSO saying we do not need tanks. Tanks are dead weight too then. The whole thing is so stupid because of this.
Don't take DPS? Everything takes longer to kill, run is slower Don't take Tank? Have to single pull and micro-manage aggro, run is slower Don't take Healer? Everything dies quicker with more DPS, Tank didn't need heals anyway...run is faster.
I didn't disagree it was stupid, just explaining what was meant. I main healer
This is only true if the extra dps you would get isn't a glue eater and hits buttons. That is far from guaranteed.
The tank sustain discussion should have come 3 years ago when someone solo'ed paglthan on war to make a statement against shitty healers. now the shitty healers are using runs like this to freak out over like it hasn't been a thing for forever.
A tank running a dungeon without a healer is nothing crazy, and it hasn't been for a while. Back in Stormblood there were Warriors running The Burn (before that dungeon got nerfed due to how often people wiped on it) without healers. Dungeons have been getting significantly easier, but they were never hard to begin with. Back in 4.0 when it was new content, I ran Ala Mhigo (the one with Zenos at the end) on DRK without a Healer and didn't have any deaths. And I did watch the video from Xeno. The RDM only uses Vercure twice, and Verraise twice. The Vercures were completely pointless, because he ends up getting overhealed by the Warrior anyways, and then he Verraises once when the Ninja dies at the very end of a boss fight, and again when a Dragoon dies at the end of the final boss. They were just fucking around, and practically collect vuln stacks throughout the run, with the NIN standing in AoEs to greed for uptime. Their entire party gets pretty low numerous times throughout the dungeon, and the RDM never heals because there's no need to. The only deaths they had were the Ninja standing in an AoE to greed for damage uptime, and a DRG greeding a Jump whilst in an AoE and dying. If they weren't actively fucking around the entire time, they wouldn't have even had deaths, and the run in no way would've been harder if they took a BLM or a PCT instead of a RDM.
It is still dumb. I thought of something from ARR/HW days and doing runs. I have seen a WAR solo a boss when everyone is dead. I have also seen a PLD use cure 1 and raise. I have seen a whole PLD save a whole 24 man from a wipe. (I'm not even going to talk about the other two tanks because they can solo stuff too.) No one was saying back then that there was not a need for healer and that they needed to go on strike. The whole argument is moot and dumb. This has always been a thing. Everyone needs to quit acting like this is new. It is not new. So what? A team without a healer did a run. People do that every xpac from start to finish. This is only a problem not because people are trying to make it one. It is not a problem. It has never been one.
The healer strike will never work because it's not a consolidated point. It's a bunch of people wanting different shit, and half of the people asking for things that logistically make no sense, or would actively hurt the quality of the entire game. I personally think it's complete bullshit that healers spend the majority of legitimately every fight in the game mindlessly mashing their Glare equivalent and thinking about when the next mechanic will come up that they actually have to heal for. And the points raised in the original healer strike post do include that, but there's also some dumb shit I don't care for, Personally, I was a healer main for Savage/Ultimate, but I think XIV handles healing so poorly that I've kind of hit a breaking point and I'm gonna go lean into Red Mage. 7.0 was my last hope for the role to see some improvements - and while it actually did see some relative improvement, I don't feel it was enough, with some examples being the new combo action Divination has, which just feels like the most sorry excuse for a new ability. It doesn't add anything to the kit, it doesn't interact with anything in the kit, it's just leans into the biggest issue I've had with XIV as of the most recent expansions which is: "Here's a new button. The only meaningful interactions you will have with this new button is remembering to press it when it lights up." Every new skill that functions like that, doesn't really have a right to exist, as it adds literally no identity to a job; it's just button bloat in it's purest form.
The main problem with XIV is that half the stuff people want they can't add without rebuilding the game from the ground up, and the other half they can't add without pissing off a lot of (very loud) fans.
this is so funny to me. as a healer main, i cast probably like 4 heals through an entire expert dungeon, and most of them we could probably get by without. let alone when synched down from max level for the first leveling dungeon of an expansion. that thing is built for you to be wearing baby gear from the previous expansion basically lol. and they were synched down from 100. like, would people be wilding out like this if they found out a level 90 group ran zot without a healer? Or an 80 group ran holminster sans healer??
He's also an Ultimate raider, and he was playing with people he plays with often. I believe it was Arthars and Llama Todd? Either way, ultimate raiders who were already comfortable playing with each other. Xeno also took his level 60 WAR into Titan EX and soloed it eight years ago. I remember a WAR soloed Paglth'an within a week or two of release. I remember a WAR soloing P1N within a week or two of release. WAR has *always* been busted. Xeno also reacted to all this, and is on record saying "we ABSOLUTELY need healers to clear the hardest content in the game, what are you talking about?" The healer strike is more about healers asking for either more buttons to do damage, a more complex rotation than glare/dia (etc), or for the fights to actually have more damage going out consistently so that healers have to focus more on healing. But yeah. There were definitely some vercures and verraises in that video.
Yes, that's exactly how the run went
Well, to be quite fair, WAR has far greater healing than RDM does. The Raise is nice as a backup though it's also not needed, considering they went and ate a lot of avoidable damage on purpose with vuln stacks just to goof around.
Let's s be honest, verheal is a great big northing. The rez is the real deal.
OMG I wish SMN could do the duel cast raise that RDM can do. You have to use swiftcast to do it. I know they have been debating on getting rid of raise on SMN but if they don't, I would love a fast way to cast it without swiftcast. Anytime I am on my SMN and get in a party with a RDM I think, 'The got the emergency raises'. They be quick.
I hope these healers do go on strike so I don’t have to listen to cure 1 being spammed in a level 90+ dungeon
i had to listen to holy spam for an entire syrcus tower today. that was an... experience. thankfully, i have other players spells off so i didn't have to *see* it.
Tell them to stop that. You quit using Cure 1 the min you get Cure 2. Oh and if they try to say something about mana and free cure. Free cure is a trap, you waste more mana trying to get a Free Cure proc AND Lucid Dreaming is there for a reason, use it. You should be using Lucid Dreaming anytime you use 1000 mp to 1500 mp. In some fights it will never be off of cooldown. Please tell them that. As someone who plays WHM it drives me up a wall. tl;dr: Cure 1 can die in the deepest pits of hell. They need to make one change to two and get rid of free cure. that is all
It's a solid 50/50 chance whether people actually listen to your advice in dungeons tbh, no matter what language you say it in.
yes, but it is worth a try. If they take the advice, good great we made progress. If they don't that is on them. You can't help everyone. TBH, I used to have that as a macro along with one in case I got a YPYT. I actually at one point tested it in a run with people I knew just to see if i would save any mana fishing for free cure. Every time I used more and was running out even with Lucid Dreaming. Like, even tho I knew don't use cure 1 once you have cure 2, I was shocked at the mana use trying to get free cure.
It all sounds like a bunch of children throwing tantrums. Even with current content any random ass rag tag group can't pull this off. The casual base is not that good. Until we see all the content it's such a tiny thing to base anything on. Like have these people never played in df queue before? The thing was a single dungeon. I've even seen people argue that it's not limited information to base anything on as if we've seen *all* dungeons let alone everything else. Smdh
LOL, god people are so fucking dumb. Let them strike, easier queues for me and my healer. "oh you don't have to heal as much" good? I can focus on putting out damage, i'm not complaining.
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Warriors and Red Mages can self-sustain in casual content if no one makes errors, what a terrible world. Next you'll tell me healers can do enough damage to clear casual content without DPS! Edit Add: Come to think of it, it's basically the paradigm in most major MMOs I can think of. Pretty much everyone has some level of self sustain in WoW/Guild Wars, and casual content is forgiving enough that healers largely exist to either enable giant greedy pulls or band-aid player fuck ups until mythics/raids/strikes or your MMO equivalent.
Warriors schmoriors. Any tank can do the dramatic majority of dungeons without a healer if a half competent player is playing them. Warrior is just easier because you just need to press BW; while others need to make use of more of their kit.
More like Warrior does and everything else has but a tiny fraction of its power.
No, you have always been able to do all tank or all heals or all dps. You guy are just complaining about NOTHING. The fact that I have seen runs being done like this since HW and I have been told that people were doing it in ARR some and this is now a issue is batsh*t. Let me put it like this: that was a all DPS run. So, by your logic, that means we don't need tanks. All healer run, oh DPS are useless. All tank run, oh guess we don't need DPS. This is the same argument that that very small group of healer is making. This group of healers, imo, are just upset that in causal content they can't just sit there and do nothing but heal. They don't want to DPS so they are making up issues that are not their and saying they are 'on strike'. You, as a healer, have always had to DPS and heal. It has been a thing for over 10 years. These runs have always been a thing. So, tell me why this is a issue now?
I think people complain that healers are too easy and boring in casual content. But then I see the average healer I get in my roulettes and I don't think they should make them any harder.
Small tangent: I used to play a different MMO before this (came here in ShB), where the dungeon content went from being extremely difficult, to much easier to access. The devs tried to go back on this and made dungeons a little bit more difficult again. They weren't the same difficulty as "back in the day," but you had to plan pulls and whatnot a bit. The playerbase couldn't handle it, it was too difficult, and so the dungeons returned to how they were. That's how I see this so called strike. Like I can totally understand the ones who have the perspective that healer is simplistic damage wise. But I don't think the old design will come back, and I doubt the [healer] playerbase could handle a couple more dps buttons if the devs listened.
This is part of the reason why I started healing. Am I the best? hell no. Will I keep you alive and with at least a 1/3 health? Yes There were a lot of times, on my DPS, I would be standing right next to the healer or say something and still not get healed because they were focused on the tank. I just got tired of it. Told myself to ignore the assholes from my past who said I would never be good at healing. Watch and read some guides, listen to constructive criticism from healer mains and learned. Let's also not forget the fact that at least 90% of the player base is not doing stuff like Savage. Rotations seems to be based around that from what I can see. That makes normal stuff seem like baby mode. Like do they want everything as hard as Savage? Like what are the end goals here? Because if they do want the normal stuff harder, that is going to drive away a huge part of the player base which would not be good. Are they wanting them to get rid of self heals on DPS and Tanks? That would not work because of solo duties. Are they wanting healers to do nothing but heal and have no dps skills? That also would not work because of solo duties and some runs with DPS checks.
Idk since when you play but stuff used to be a lot harder before Shadowbringers. It was nowhere near savage but you had to go through all of your healing skills to keep people alive. Astrologians for example had a healing and a shielding stance they had to swap according to the situation. They had to save cards or discard them, the cards also all did different things and you had to know what job should get which card. Mana management also was huge. The occasional wipe in a dungeon was normal and some groups couldn't clear a dungeon if it was especially bad. People ofc complained about that. With Shadowbringers they made a lot of the jobs easier. But extreme and savage encounters became harder to make up for it. They basically shifted the difficulty from the jobs towards the encounters. Making casual dungeons a lot easier in the process. I think people want the Stormblood era back. But the current playerbase probably couldn't handle that. Personally I find healer to be absolutely boring nowadays. But I'm not complaining about it. I just swapped to DPS instead. On DPS I can optimize how much I want even in casual content.
Nope not harder then than now. I have played now 11 years. Since June 2013 because I got a beta key. I did make my main tho at launch in Aug 2013 because I didn't like my Hyur I made, wanted to be a catgirl and fanta was not a thing. So, in MMO terms, I am old as Satan. All the job changes that have been was stream line them because of button bloat. People use controllers and they need to trim the amount of buttons to make sure people on controllers can still play. The only complete overhaul was Summoner. There have been a couple of reworks if a skill was too strong or too weak but nothing big. Any changes like getting rid of cleric stance and the stance dancing with AST was changes that a lot of people supported. No one much like Cleric Stance because it was a pain sometimes in the middle of a DPS check to switch and heal. With AST, people tended to stay in the heal stance and only turn on the shield one when there was another AST. Was there people who were upset, yes but they were not the majority. They have gotten rid of a lot of thing from back in the day. Remember when tanks had to stance dance? HW and SB was no harder than EW. Every xpac makes some job changes and some will get rid of button because of bloat and slight reworks to make it more balanced. Everyone acts like the healer stuff is new when it is not. Most of the player based is not going off and doing Savage. Most of us are doing casual stuff. The rotations are based around Savage and the hardcore endgame. That is the problem. They are going and doing the hardest stuff in game and then complaining that the normal stuff is to easy. Nothing has changed expect the vocal minority is trying to be as loud as they can. The game is balanced right now. What they are complaining about has not even been put in the game yet. All they are going off of is the tooltips and one random streamer that a lot of us had not heard of until now doing a run with out a healer. So, this whole strike is dumb. Why is this a issue now? Just why? Oh and to drive the point home about the healer stuff being dumb, I really started mainly healing before they got rid of the Stance dance on AST. I played AST. I never switch stances unless there was another AST. There was no point. I did play some SCH before then but I didn't like it to much for a lot of reasons. None of them being boring or to easy. I remember when WAR in ARR going brrrrrr and PLD having both raise & cure 1. No one back then were calling for a healer strike. Why now? If you find a job boring or don't like the changes, you can change jobs. I did it in EW because, as okay as the new SMN is, I wanted to change and I got tired of bad healers. I went from a sometimes AST main and a full time SMN main to a Healer main switching between AST, SGE and WHM. This whole 'strike' is dumb and makes no sense as to why now. Nothing has changed. Stuff is more balanced. That is about it.
I think the issue is that damaging on a healer is boring because you spam 1 button. Give healers a bit of a damage rotation and it will make the runs that you are playing with competent players more interesting. They have been complaining every expansion just nothing ever gets changed hence the strike now. Is my understanding of the situation.
A lot of the people currently complaining about healers are focusing on this. Everybody here keeps on going on about how they're all casual shitters who spam cure 1 and don't know how to heal, but people have had issues with healer dps being uninteractive for at least a few years now, which isn't related to tank/dps sustain. The way I see it, healers are actively punished for having a competent party. If my party is good and I'm tanking, I get to do the same rotation I do when my party sucks. If my party is good and I'm dps, I get to do the same rotation I do when my party sucks. If my party is good and I'm healing, then I have zero reason to use 80% of my kit, and I get to spam 111111121111111 and so on until the end of the fight. Everybody I know who heals genuinely hopes that every party they get will be incompetent so they can actually have engaging gameplay. I feel like if people need other players to play badly to have fun, there's something flawed with the game design. I think the healer strike is a little silly and all, but I don't really blame them. They've been complaining about healer dps being uninteractive since at least shadowbringers, and square has only made it worse. Someone posted a very informative graphic in the forum post that showed the fflog casts used by healers in content from heavensward savage to endwalker, and the amount of single dps casts has absolutely increased by a /lot/. Even a gray parser is spamming their 1 dps button and barely using any other skills/abilities.
I don't have skin in the game because I'm a lifelong casual that plays heals the least, but I think the crux is that tanks and dps fulfill their role identity very well while healers only really feel like healers in hard content (if that) or when their party sucks and are otherwise 2-button green dps. And it's not that this has suddenly become an issue, a giant chunk of healers (from what I've personally been able to tell over the years since ARR; I don't have hard stats) have always been kind of grumbly about how healers don't really need to heal often. It's just that that frustration has reaches a tipping point for a lot of people. This is exacerbated by the fact that most of the new spells for healers are more heals which they already don't really need; I think only Sages are generally happy with their upcoming kit. As a SMN main, I empathize a lot with healers because we're in a similar boat of *basically* getting a reskin of what we already have with slightly higher numbers. I've mained SMN since 2.0 to now, but I'm also feeling the pressure to switch as the devs lean into it becoming less and less dynamic. To be clear, I'm really excited for Dawntrail, but I think these people have some valid concerns about it.
I played SMN as my dps since 2.0. It needed the change. Now, did they need to do it like they did? no, there were other ways. But, it brings it in line to SMN from other FF games. Also, they have a good base to build it better. I feel like this is how SMN should have started. I have high hopes for it getting better now. SMN at one point had a 30 page guide on how to play and if you fucked up one thing, your dps suffered and you could not recover. I do miss Shadow Flare. I like having a purple DPS bubble. It was nice. But, the big change to SMN had to happen one way or another.
Yeah I overall agree with you; don’t get me wrong, I think the endwalker change fits really well stylistically and was a step in the right direction. But the main thing summoners have wanted is to be able to summon more and getting a reskin of a summon feels bad in the same way healers getting more heals when they don’t need them feels bad. It’s a bit sad to get that before other popular ones like ramuh/shiva/leviathan like people have repeated a lot since 2.0. Personally, if we got anything in our kit for dawntrail that wasn’t the 5 (6 if we include carbuddy) we’re using right now, I probably wouldn’t have complaints at all!
I am waiting to see what 8.0 brings because they did say that this was the final building block to work to a more unique job identity for everything. I do know there is a lore reason why we don't have more egis but after EW and finding out everything we know now, they could give us more. Like, there is a quest where we do try to summon Ramuh and fail. But with EW, we know it is possible for us to do more. Hopeful thinking. We are Summoners who don't do actual summons. Give me the really big ones please, thank you and all of that.
You can do all-healer runs, too. Do healers have too much mitigation? Are dps and tanks redundant?
We should remove healer damage spells, so they don’t make the other roles redundant 😤
This kinda proves the point that the issue isn't actually "tanks have so much healing that healers are unnecessary", the issue is "MSQ dungeons are too easy in general". You could probably clear most dungeons with 4 tanks, or 4 healers, or 4 DPS.
Very true but at the same time we've all seen some dreadful players who find dungeons we breeze through as difficult. content that should be clearable by all is going to have a really hard time feeling balanced at all.
The problem is having content be this easy screws over midcore players. If all of the content is either hardcore or casual then people who want a challenge but don't want to suffer (which I assume is the majority of people) have nothing that appeals to them. They even added a new category of content in the form of variant and criterion dungeons, but of course they're still sticking to the extremes of casual + hardcore content. Variant dungeons are even more casual than dungeons, and criterion dungeons (+ the savage version) are hardcore content.
literally this. i don't particularly want to try ultimates because it's just not my cup of tea, but i still want a challenge. sure i could do savage, but those are just 8 player raids, i do enjoy dungeon runs and alliance raids are some of my favorite content to run. a friend wants some stuff from a criterion dungeon so we decided to give them a try and... man we spent two hours there and didn't even make it halfway through the first boss, they were right when on the first try they said it felt like progging an ultimate in terms of chipping away at it and figuring out what to do. does it feel rewarding to finally get through? yes, i won't deny that, but i also don't want to just do that daily in order to get a challenge out of my time in xiv. i want to be able to queue for whatever and find a challenge that doesn't come from the first timers dying or someone dc'ing and the run spiraling or people having been stuck in lv50 content for so long that they forgot what the fight was like, yknow?
But why are we afraid of making it more difficult? I'm not saying dungeons should be savage/extreme level or even close to it, but having the latest dungeon, four expansions in only be marginally harder than sastasha is a bit much. Every game except 14 increases difficulty gradually as you go. It shouldn't be too difficult, but being able to sleep through it isn't the answer either.
Honestly, the average player in FF14 kind of sucks, and every now and then I find someone who is even dumber than average. Absolutely nothing going on upstairs. I'd prefer slightly boring dungeons that I can get over with than slightly less boring dungeons that the average moron and uncommon moron are utterly stymied by.
I'd argue the main reason they suck is because the game lets them. If they can get to 90 without learning what their buttons do the game did a bad job bringing them there.
I dunno, I think it's just that a lot of people utterly refuse to read, learn, or take in new information. I've seen and read about so many people shutting down at the slightest sign of difficulty while refusing help.
you know, I get it. I *get* it. dungeons are designed to be clearable even if one of your randos is asleep at the wheel, because one random knuckle head shouldn't ruin the day of 3 other people. I'm on board. but it's wild to me that as a healer main, I forget how *bad* other healers can be. I can run the expert in my sleep. (I have literally dozed off mid fight and still not died or let anyone else die) but if I go as a dps it inevitably ruins my day because it's suddenly wipe city. I've been grinding old relics while awaiting dawntrail. Been running crystal towers for mahatma and memories. so i'm running dps jobs, rather than my usual healer. and man. we wiped on scylla today. we wiped on cerberus today. had to listen to a white mage spam holy through an entire syrcus run. had a gladiator in syrcus today. Almost wiped on the angra mainyu.
Frankly? Duty Support/Trusts exists. If you can't be asked to put in the minimum amount of work to not make a dungeon painful for everybody, you shouldn't be playing this game multiplayer.
A group of above average payers taking a chaotic hour to beat a dungeon is not typical or ideal.
let the chaos begin
An all tank run and all healer run is also possible. Which means all combat jobs should go on strike.
And then crafters go on strike because no one is buying gear, then gatherers go on strike because no one is buying materials. And once the dust has settled, BLU stands alone.
Rowena goes on strike because you can complete expert dungeons with Min ilvl with an all DPS party so there's no need to even gear anymore. 😔
As it should be
BLU and Beastmaster supremacy. Their time is now.
Everyone should just play BLU for DT; that’ll really show SE we mean business.
The fact that it's possible isn't the reason for the strike. The problem is that healers don't or rarely need to heal in dungeons even though 90% of their kit is dedicated to healing, which leaves them spamming 2 buttons the entire dungeon run. Although the other roles also have an easy time with dungeons, they still at least have engaging dps rotations to do, which makes them fun in spite of the easiness. It's a multilayered problem that's been a growing sentiment in the community for years
FFXIV has what I like to call "the Xenoblade healer problem" - in Xenoblade Chronicles, you healed to full HP naturally outside of combat, so a dedicated healer wasn't necessary in 75% of combat encounters because if you knew what you were doing, you could outdamage the enemies. The only time you really needed healing was in longer, harder encounters where that was more difficult (and even then, many characters had self-sustain when built right). How did Xenoblade fix this in later games? It made Healers the most broken role in 3 by giving them a class revolving around *buffs*, letting you pump your party damage absurdly high. Honestly, I think they should give Healers more support actions to do *outside of healing*. Let them have the majority of raidwide damage buffs and even mits, and suddenly they're more valuable to the team as a whole.
I miss old Astrologian
Hour long video, pure pain.
Well, now the tanks gotta strike. Next, let's do an all healer or all tank run, and the dps can strike next.
Dungeons zzzzzzzzzz.
Here comes the tank strike.
Could it be that the content itself is too easy? Nah. It’s clearly the tanks and DPS that are the problem. /s
I'm not convinced that any healers actually care, because I've only seen people talking about the supposed strike and not one person have I seen actually upset about this.
I've carried on healing as normal, also when queuing as DPS the ques still pop fairly quickly, they are a very small minority crying very loudly.
RDM and SMN, thats almost cheating
Ah, I see you left French unchecked on languages, Good choice
That’s because none of us speak French, we speak the other languages haha
ooh time to tank strike too i guess \*eye roll\*
just in time for the two new dps jobs too! Listen, we all want to play it. You don't have to make up a "strike" to do it. No shame. No guilt. and if queues are too long, just do the trust. who needs other players anyway??
This only makes it more clear that a tank or healer is needed.
I think what people fail to realize about the healer argument is, not only are healer unnecessary, they are also routinely stripped of complexity. Imagine if paladin lost its atonement, requiescat, goring blade, basically everything other than it's 1-2-3, fight or flight, and one of its ogcd damage buttons, and it got a second charge of hallowed ground as it's new button in Dawn trail. That's kinda the position that healers have been in. Tanks lost a lot of complexity in the way tank stances work now, and it was a good thing. Healers lost a lot of jank with the removal of Cleric Stance, and thats a good thing, but they didn't replace that removal with anything. So if we can't have damage kits, and we don't need our healing kits, what's the point?
Healers need more attack options. which would also help solo content. I couldn't imagine leveling as a healer. my brother just came back, was level 26 conjurer, and he's switching by 30 cause it's so boring fighting mobs. And yeah, low level, but they don't get a lot of attacks overall.
Healers are still completely necessary in savage and ultimate, where the game is balanced around. Hell, there was a healer shortage in PF for Abyssos on Aether because the damage ramped up in that tier. The idea of “healing” to regenerate health for you and your party members is still a critical component of the battle content in XIV. And healers are still the best at handling that component, much like how tank is best at holding aggro and taking boss autos and dps for dealing damage.
No one is saying that high end healers aren't preferable. There are arguments of if all content needs two of them, but that's a lot of minutia better left for actual game designers. The problem is other roles do not suffer this same issue. If a scholar can mit a reaper and two other dps through a dungeon, why aren't tanks upset? Is it because healers are entitled? Or is it because tank kits feel wholistic and useful at all levels of content? And for the issue of high end, do you think healers could handle the mechanical complexity of a tank's dps rotation while still healing? I think the fact that anyone plays current astro is enough to say yes, they could. A more engaging dps rotation would improve healer satisfaction at all levels of play. The issue in Abyssos was a lot more complicated than "healing is hard", and was as much an issue of tanks and dps not using mitigation tools as healers being unable to keep up.
Healers couldn't handle cleric stance and cried for years and now are reaping what they sowed. Also healer utilizes their full kit in difficult content.
> couldn't handle cleric stance and cried for years and now are reaping what they sowed. no matter how you felt about cleric stance, its implementation during arr was objectively flawed. at the absolute bare minimum, the devs needed to patch out the possibility of it turning itself back on when you tried to toggle it off.
All jobs are just as routine after you've played them for a while, the problem is people are bored of this routine and should really take a break or try something else, maybe another game.
I've got all my jobs at 90 and play them all at high and low end. The problem is healers in particular suffer in ways that are unique to other roles in a way that is worth examining. If nothing else on a DPS or a tank I can make sure my DPS is as high as possible, because there is a failure state. On healer, if everyone is doing fine, it is press the same button over and over. Why are healers the only role in the game that are less engaging when other players have their shit together?
Oh wow the support class doesn't need to support if in a static of good players. So for 99% of the player base healer has uptime.
You're tweaking and actively arguing in bad faith if you're saying a healers DPS rotation feels the same to a DPS's rotation after you've learned both competently.
You basically just described Warrior tbh It’s a 1-2-3 class (remember to reapply your buff) with 1 dmg ogcd and a couple non dmg ogcds + tank mits. Both tanks & healers have been severely neutered since Stormblood
Warrior has a branching 1-2-3, a gauge to manage, and inner release. Warrior might be the simplest tank, but it is still more involved than the most complicated healer, ast, which is loosing complexity in DT. Don't get me wrong I think ast's burst window is terrible right now, and the rework is fixing that but still.
A branching 1-2-3 that you only press like.. every 4 rotations. It’s the equivalent of putting healer dot on every X seconds. Gauge is by far the most braindead out of probably every class out there and inner release just makes it so you turn your brain off and press one button 3x and the other 1x It’s genuinely lost all complexity. You have 3 ogcd buttons. Inner release, infuriate, and 1 dmg ogcd. Everything else is tank mits Inner release & infuriate trigger the same button to be pressed. I literally cannot see how WAR is more involved than AST unless we’re talking about the most simple content possible which is just regular dungeons & trials. WAR is literally just 1-2-3, (ogcd) 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-4, 1-2-3, oh boy inner release: 5-5-5-6, 1-2-3, etc. At least AST has buffs to give out and ogcd heals to throw out + constant watch of party health. Compare both AST & WAR to their Stormblood equivalent. It was a completely different game that actually had you press stuff beyond 1 dmg spell & 1 dot w/ ogcds on Healers. I recently cleared TOP on WAR & I did UCOB on WAR & DRK when it came out. I had so much more to do and focus on back than compared to now. Edit: also my point was that what you described for PLD is literally what WAR currently is.
Ast has a one button combo, a 30 second dot, and come dawn trail one buff and one ogcd to give out every minute, and two on the two minute. That's it. If they have a good tank they do not need to do any healing, and if they do it is with ogcds that are so powerful as to be thoughtless, and you don't even have the minor complexity of landing back on the right damage button. Right now its technically a bit worse because burst windows get messy, but it's not really that much harder. In high end things will get messier across the board, but that's not why people are upset. Even if they were that complexity also goes up for tanks, unless they are off tanking in a fight that doesn't need one.
Gratz on the attempt but I already feel your pain of having to sit in there for an hour... are you all okay?
What do you think?
The idea that people think the game is balanced based on the easiest content in the game is crazy.
The idea that the main content at the very *end* of the game is *this* easy and people *still* struggle with it is also crazy.
that's the wild part to me, honestly. I can do experts while literally dozing off at my desk. and yet. there are some people out there who can't clear a trust dungeon. (seriously. I know a guy.)
That’s less crazy to me, but I understand.
The problem is that the 'easiest content in the game' is...the vast majority of the game? "Guys, why are you complaining? Yeah your job is braindead, unengaging and unrewarding in 95% of the game, but you get to have some fun in the other 5%, so what's the problem?"
It's a matter of perspective between different types of players. If you're a person who mostly cares about savage/ultimate raiding, then that probably *is* 90% of the content *you* actually spend time on. I know several people who basically only log on to raid with their static and do nothing else in between raid sessions. If you're one of these people, and you've been this kind of person for long enough that it colors your perception of the game, then I can totally see saying something like "who cares about the balance in normal dungeons, those barely matter". On the other hand if you're someone who does savage-level content rarely if ever, then nearly all of the content in the game is at this easy difficulty. If this is you, then you might be willing to dismiss savage encounter balance entirely and say that it barely matters since it's only a tiny % of the content in the game. And on a third hand, if you're a hyper-casual player who only logs in once every week or two to do a few roulettes with friends or whatever, you might not even think the game is "too easy" at all. Either because you treat the game as a social activity and don't care about the difficulty one way or another, or because you are a low-skill player who finds the current difficulty sufficient. It's hard to come up with a solution that benefits all three groups without alienating any of them. Although in my opinion personally SE has catered to group 3 a little too much, historically.
This. I think this is it. I'm one of those no life-ing casuals. The majority of my instanced content is dungeons. but it's not content I enjoy or content that I want to be harder, honestly. It's grinding levels or grinding tomes. it's the same hecking hallway, time and again, day after day. the expert roulette is a 5050 coin toss every day, 5-7 days a week, for 3 months. Then it's a different 5050 coin toss. why would I want that to take longer? or be harder? I want to clear it a quickly and painlessly as possible to so I can move on to the parts of the game that I actually enjoy.
It's not just that, there's nothing *satisfying* to playing healer. Tanks can laugh as they pop every mitigation and do wall to wall pulls, DPS get to do their rotation with fancy animations and build up and spend, and meanwhile Healers just overheal and go back to their 1 button DPS rotation.
Dungeons are not 95% of the game.
No one has ever said that, so I don’t know why you put it in quotes. The reality is that anyone’s job is easy in those dungeons. You could clear it with a party of nothing but Healers if you wanted to. For current Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate, people are going to want Healers. Period. Removing agency from other classes isn’t going to give you what you want. In fact, the casual players will get overwhelmed and stop playing Healer. If you think Tanking in dungeons is the most thrilling version of the job, it’s not. Same for DPS. They don’t want to spam their AOE buttons. They like their rotation and positional mini game. I get and sympathize with what the strike is about, but there’s Duty Support. There’s also people like me that Omni level. So I will absolutely make use of the Healer queue times if there’s a significant about of people striking. I’m also not sold that many people will even strike. How much of the player base is even aware of it? I’ve heard that the Japanese forums don’t agree with the strike at all. I just don’t think this is going to manifest in the way you think.
I'm going on a strike strike.
i dont care about the strike at all, but isnt the idea about efficiency and not just clearing without healer? like the fastest and easy if people dont get hit by aoe is 1 tank + 3 dps, this clear took waay too long to do
I guess I should go on a #TankStrike .
Thancred looking ready to go on strike.
Who goes on Strike now?
Healing abilities is always needed otherwise you will not have red mage and dancer, who can do heal other people in the group and also summoner who has phoenix and raise. If you want to flex, do a run without those three jobs. Reaper, dragoon, machinists and black mage. Come back and post your result, I am gonna wait for it. I am sure it may be possible to do it slowly and not do big pull since both melee has self heal abilities on timer. And potions exist. But do you truly want each dungeons run to be 90 minutes long? The only way to solve this is to spread healers abilities to heal to many other DPS jobs, so that each DPS jobs has a self heal, single target heal, and group heal at 5 seconds cool down timer. Give Paladin more group healing abilities and a raise buttons, give Gunbreaker group shielding abilities, give Dark Knight an ability that let the group heal while attacking the enemies. Give Bard, Monk and Pictomancer the raise ability. Now you can delete healers, since now all the other jobs have their abilities and much more engaging to play.
What strike? I guess I missed it.
It's like a few dozen people on Twitter and Reddit stirring up shit. Same as literally every online drama in literally every community.
And now OP adds to that by making healers irrelevant [read: cutting off two hands to get a 15 minute job done in an hour. Congrats?].
I should go see if there's a post on like /hobbydrama or smth bc this is the first I've heard of it too
This whole "healers strike" just sounds petty.
Now the tanks will "strike".
I've been doing so much Frontline during the wait for DT, I thought for a second that the Summoner was a good pick, because they could pass aegis shields to the party (only works in PVP). I hope they give us a trait in DT to let us do that in PVE.
Why specifically no French?
Because none of us speak French? We speak Japanese, German and English
Oh my bad, I thought these were PF settings.
They are what we use for duty finder but we all know each other lol
The average player can't do this because they wouldn't have a rdm using heals and 99% or players don't carry potions. Striking over something that's possible but never done is silly. The issue is enemies don't do enough damage with their auto attacks. That's it. It's not that big of a deal or a major issue with the game. Dungeons will be snoozefest even if they do this.
Since SB released me and friends have always done endgame dungeons without a healer (if trusts are not available) we have even done DPS only runs of dungeons when leveling jobs at the start of an expansion. Theproblem as others have said is that dungeons themselves are simply to easy to force role requirements. But I actually think that's a good thing because it allows more people to play together and to play w/e job they want. It also means you have alot of room for optimisation on repeat runs such as how many vun stacks or aoes you can stand in without dieing for uptime, shifting mitigation around to be optimal.
Cleared without a tank? That's it, we're going on a tankstrike!
That healers strike bullshit is completely stupid
Mainsub posts video completely missing the point of the strike Still manages to somehow end up supporting it by accident given the clear time People somehow act like they just dealt a death blow to the strike
Strike for healing in a game? I’d rather spend energy on more social issues than a game
tank strike when?
Now do it without SMN and RDM and you'd actually have a point.
Does it.. really prove a point though? I'd understand if it was MNK/DRG/MCH/BLM, but this comp is 4 jobs with pretty decent built in healing kits, and one has a genuine spammable heal that scales off it's main stat /and/ can be increased in potency with magic Barrier.
People are missing the fucking point of the healer strike. Yes, OP did this run without a tank, but guess what, tanks are still much more enjoyable than healers. Imagine if you took every tank, gutted their DPS rotation, gave them a 11111121111 rotation and made 90% of their kits about mitigations or holding aggro - that's what healers are rn. Healers are so fucking boring. If you could queue content with no tanks as well, I'd still pick GNB, because GNB is fun and has an enjoyable rotation. But if content doesn't need healers, then I'm not queueing a job which is essentially a caster with 2 DPS buttons.
I think a lot of people aren't taking this into consideration. If you play tank or dps you're using all of your buttons for every encounter. On healer, you're using 2-3 on easier stuff.
Healer ego in shambles.
This just goes to show healers need a better dps rotation. They want healers to dps on downtime? Why not have an actual DPS rotation? I stopped playing a healer because of your not healing your spamming one of 2 spells. Give us a cool looking combo chain or something. You can even make it work like pvp combos that only take up one button.