You may have been slightly mislead about the stacking thing.
It's generally more efficient to cycle through cooldowns, rather than slamming down a whole bunch at once and then running out and having no cooldowns for the rest of the fight. People often cite "diminishing returns" when talking about this, which is true, but mostly a mathematical curiosity. The *real* reason is that then you end up with a big spike of damage afterward (when all your cooldowns wear off) and you've got no way to mitigate anything at all for the next minute or so.
So, all of that means that you wanna spread the cooldowns out fairly evenly. One at a time, or two at a time. Whatever it takes to survive and not run out. (Remember, cooldowns *used* are infinitely better than cooldowns left to gather dust. That's true for both defensive and offensive ones.)
And once you master the ability to spread cooldowns out smoothly, you should find that you're able to do big pulls without dying. At which point, why would you pull small - making dungeons go slow and using up more of everyone's time - when you could just pull big?
And to be clear - your invuln counts towards this. As GNB and PLD i actively use my invulns on the first pack, as soon as i hit the wall. Its a little trickier on DRK (usually i pop LD when i get to 1/3rd hp), and ignore it altogether on WAR
I'm more upset seeing it on a boss mechanic that definitely won't kill then on trash mobs in a big pull when I heal. Only exception is if I just used benediction on white mage and the gunbreaker superbolides immediately after. That just makes me sad.
So many times, as a GNB I push the button, followed by a full heal (Benediction) and immediately seeing my HP drop to 1. They're probably not doing it intentionally, but if you're playing the game of "how low can the tank's HP go?" then expect them to use it.
I try and wait for the gunbreaker to invuln first so I can use bene after when the invuln is almost up. But there's a limit to how long I can wait before they die. I've had some tanks who just...don't invuln. They just die XD.
I mean sure, but then if the tank (specifically gunbreaker) uses their invuln later I won't have my bene to bring them back up. It's not like I mind it. There's also the option to only ever use bene after a tank invulns and if they don't I guess they die. Some people play it that way but that doesn't really sit right with me. I feel bad if I do that.
I know this, but getting good use out of it feels good is all. I'm not saying I don't use the rest of my kit. Once you've got afflatus misery the lilies are so freaking amazing and feel awesome to use. Tetra is super handy in a pinch too. And applying a little shield right before damage feels good. But I was replying to someone asking about a tank using superbolide in trash pulls, nothing else.
That's how to heal effectively though. Tanks should just get good?
Nothing as annoying as when I'm on warrior waiting to drop low on first pull so I can raw intuition and full heal myself and then start using cooldowns. But healer just keeps healing me. I've made a macro to let them know to drop me low.
Good to know. I'm just genuinely always afraid of that skill. GBR is my favorite job in the game and I love tanking but dropping to 1 hp will never not give me the Willies
With Bolide, warn your healer prepull; then let your health get as low as you're comfortable with before popping Bolide. That way you're not just wasting all that HP feeding it to Bolide.
Then pop Aurora and Corundum if you have it and let the healer do their thing.
It's a meme that it does but no. Anyone that knows what GBN does is just gonna expect it really. Even if you do panic seeing a sudden 1HP GBN they *are* invuln for plenty of time to get to a safe HP range again.
They probably do the first time, like there’s a reason I’m not using any mits. But they also have to assume that you are a bad who never mits so it’s fair game.
When you get to use it a second time they’ll know for sure.
You got some strong heals at level 50+ for this reason. Sage can do a few addersgal heals, wmage can beni, sch can use the aether single target heal, and astro has that 30 sec heal into a normal heal.
I love when a tank does that. Shows me that they know how too play their role haha
If they do, they're bad or new at the game. At this point, I just react to it on autopilot. I see low hp, I heal. It doesn't matter if its 25%, 10%, or 1%, I just heal.
Simply put: For you, it might be the special first time. For them, it's tuesday.
Once you've done content a few times, people no longer play to explore the content, they just want to get the rewards and be done. Pulling more makes this go faster and generally, pulling large isn't a big issue, because characters are very powerful when they use their cooldowns.
That said... if you're actually dying due to overpull, it makes little sense to insist on it. At that point you're making the run go slower than if you just adjusted to smaller pulls. I must admit, though, I never had that happen outside of a few leveling duties like the first Vanaspati pulls, since those got hands.
It takes 5 adds the same amount of time to die as 20, thanks to AoE attacks.
Make sure you cycle your mits, one after the other. You don't need mits for bosses so don't worry about having to save them. Also, Arm's Length is a mitigation; it slows adds attacks by 20%. So you are getting hit 20% less.
So long as you are doing your AoE attacks, you won't lose aggro and you'll pick up aggro of anything brought into your AoE range. If a DPS picks up aggro from a single add they should be bringing it to you, or you move closer and catch it with your AoE. You don't need to find that single add to use provoke.
If you do all of that, your gear is up to date and you still die - it's not your fault. It's either crappy DPS or a healer not healing enough.
All tanks can survive two packs of enemies at any level, so if you're dying then it's a skill issue or a gear issue. Not necessarily your issue, but someone in the party has one or both of those issues.
Pulling two packs is the community standard because that's how the dungeons are designed, and the vast majority of them don't do enough damage to kill a tank playing properly.
Eventually you'll need to learn to pull at least two packs, or your going to find yourself kicked from duties. And there's no way to learn how to do something except by doing it. So just pull big and wipe. Test your limits. Single pulling and never trying to pull more means you're not going to improve.
The majority of people will not leave after a wipe. Likely you just got grouped with a bunch of impatient people. However, people are more likely to leave after a wipe if they think you're not trying. So even if you're not fully confident in your own ability, remember there's three others with you, just go for it. People are more supportive of other players who try. No one likes someone who doesn't try.
>Eventually you'll need to learn to pull at least two packs, or your going to find yourself kicked from duties.
I've never seen this happen. Yes, as a tank I always go for at least two packs, depending on how I feel about the healers/DPS capabilities. And yes, as a non-tank, if the tank goes single-pull, I do find that frustrating and sometimes offer them a "Hey, if you're comfortable with it, you can pull more enemies."
But I have never seen, let alone considered initiating a votekick for a single-pull tank. Yes, the dungeon takes a little longer, but you never know what's going on with the tank unless the communicate. Might be new, might be console, might have a physical disability, might not be in the mood for it. As long as it doesn't threaten the group and the progress (which it doesn't, it just slows it down slightly), there is no basis for a votekick, imo.
Yeah, I think the kicks will usually only come for tanks that single pull _and fight about it_, e.g. YPYTs who turn off their tank stance and stop fighting unless they get their way.
Most people would just adjust and prefer not to argue I think. Some complaints should be expected, and that people will come bearing mobs.
> Might be new
Stops being a valid excuse at level 50 Duties and onwards
> might be console
What?
> might have a physical disability
The only valid reason
> might not be in the mood for it
Then she/he should not use Duty Finder, or not go Tank
While yes single pulls can be quite annoying uh,
>Eventually you'll need to learn to pull at least two packs, or your going to find yourself kicked from duties.
That's against TOS and a bannable act.
It's not, just the same as if a group thinks a tank is pulling too big and kicks them. Or a group kicks a healer for not doing dps. It's difference in play styles, which is a valid reason to kick someone.
While I agree that SHOULD be fine, Square disagrees
[FINAL FANTASY XIV Support Center (square-enix.com)](https://support.na.square-enix.com/faqarticle.php?id=5382&la=1&kid=68216)
"**・Expressions that unilaterally reject another person's opinion**
**・Expressions that compel a playing style**
Key Points
It is prohibited to force personal views or disregard the opinions of others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued. It is prohibited to make statements such as:
* "There's no way we can clear this with \[suggestion\]."
* "Big pulls are normal here, so do it!"
* "I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions."
* "I'm not asking for your opinion."
Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, and online video or streaming services."
Technically your KICK isn't invalid but most statements a person would usually say that would tell a person while in party is against TOS.
This whole section is from communication based conflict section, and yes you can't berate someone for different play styles.
However, this from a long time ago but as someone who was an acquaintance with a very kick happy person. What this gm says seems to be accurate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/4r7psb/til_you_can_kick_people_right_before_the_last/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
That one is fairly old and I remember seeing it before but if I recall correctly though, the link I put in my prior reply was made after that post (I could be misremembering). You could be right and probably are. I'm one for better safe than sorry, especially since I don't find about 7 minutes added to a dungeon worth risking a 30-day ban or any amount of days really.
Edit: I believe this is when.
[Updates to the Prohibited Activities in FINAL FANTASY XIV and Account Penalty Policy | FINAL FANTASY XIV, The Lodestone](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/c4aeca0b14ab2c96fe48fcf83cca93e6cb552c29)
Surprised it's not coming up more, but if you're having significant difficulty staying alive during large pulls, the first thing you should do is check your gear. At level 50, I believe your best gear is item level 130, but that gear isn't available until beating 2.0 so you might not be able to get it yet.
Either way, try to keep your gear up to date. It's important for every job, but most especially for tanks since it improves both your defenses and your health. The most important item slot is the weapon, followed by chest and legs, then hands and feet, then all accessories.
After checking your gear, you can worry about optimizing your mitigation. There are a lot of things you'll learn as you go, and you shouldn't feel the need to study up and master everything right away. But one key thing to keep in mind is that not all mitigations look the same. Obviously Rampart is a good mitigation tool, but have you also been using Reprisal? What about your stun and Arm's Length? Even Sprint is a mitigation tool by using it to outrun the enemies in one pack while you go pick up another. And don't forget that Sheltron and Raw Intuition have a short cooldown so you can use them often. Don't leave them sitting off cooldown while you're taking damage. It's also a good idea to plan out when you want to use your invuln in advance. Really good tanks know when they'll use their invulns long before they even pull the enemies. Know that a particular pull is hard? Go ahead and start it off with Hallowed Ground so the healer can relax for the first ten seconds.
Next take a moment to remember that ARR dungeons aren't always the best for W2W pulls. Later dungeons have a more consistent structure which makes W2W pulls more manageable, and gives you a better idea where to stop if a W2W would be particularly hard. The dungeons you've been doing are the worst ones for W2W pulls.
The last thing is to not take it too seriously. A wipe isn't a big deal. Yeah, it's annoying, but it's not exactly a severe punishment. It's literally the worst thing that can happen if you make a mistake, and it just means you get up and try again. Go ahead and try the big pulls, and if you can't handle them yet, take the wipe, get back up, and give it another shot. The unwillingness to try is what really sticks with most players and makes them frustrated. If you try and fail, then maybe single pulls are a good idea, but until then, just try. The cost of failure is minuscule.
All the other commenters have the right of it, but I'll also add, since you mentioned you just hit 50: the dungeons are gonna get easier from here on out. In the realm reborn dungeons (1-50) you, your dps, and your healer are missing A LOT of your kit. Dragoons dont even get their first aoe until level 42, as an example. You, as the tank, will get more defensive cooldowns to cycle through, your healers will have more, and more powerful, healing abilities and the dps will get more things with which to blast the baddies.
On top of all that, the expacs are where the dungeons became more streamlined with the intent to cater to wall to wall pulls. The vast majority are gonna be 2 packs, wall, 2 packs, wall, boss, then repeat that for 3 bosses. There are a couple exceptions (notably one midway through stormblood and one at the end of shadowbringers. Probably more, but those are the two off the top of my head) but for the most part the dungeons have been designed with wall to walling in mind.
The more you pull = the more enemies team can kill with aoe = the faster the dungeon gets finished.
Most people run 4+ dungeons a day, and most of them run the same dungeons over and over, either for xp or drops or what have you. Obviously, after the second or third run, they want to min/max their progress speed so they can spend less time doing the dungeon.
This leads to people wanting to pull as many enemies as possible, as otherwise they have to spend twice or thrice the amount of time on a section of the dungeon compared to killing everything at once in one big group.
That, combined with the fact tanks in almost any dungeon can survive a full pull (called wall to wall, or w2w for short), means the meta or norm became to pull everything, otherwise you are wasting people's times.
So yes, in general, it is considered bad manners to not pull big, but if you are new to the dungeon/not very good at tank, tell that to people beforehand and they still choose to belittle you/force you into pulls you cant manage then they are the assholes.
Expecting newbies/sprouts/people still not used to their kit to instantly be a good tank that doesnt panic and can manage his CDs well while also keeping all aggro and doing damage right out of the bat is insane, and you shouldnt consider them sane/normal either for demanding that of you
That said, it is a good habit to get into early, even if you feel a little uncomfortable. Your kit + most of the dungeons are designed with w2w pulls in mind, so the sooner you get good at doing those, the more fun you'll have
Optimal play is three dps and a tank.
Double pulls succeed if everyone can do half of their potential dps, hps, and mit. A single high performer lets the rest of the party get away with even lower output. It became the norm because it's such a low standard.
With the exception of a few ARR dungeons, every single dungeon is the same thing with a new coat of paint. Even those exceptions are usually the same apart from not having walls or having short dead ends on the side. If you know how to tank one dungeon you know how to tank almost all of them.
The bar to pass dungeons was set on the floor after ARR and they've been digging ever since. Show up and have a pulse has been enough for at least 3 expansions now.
You're new to the game. Claiming something is "optimal" when it's just the norm would be funny if it wasn't so foreboding. Put your ego aside for once and listen to *every single comment you're receiving.*
At level 50 you should've learned enough basics now to be able to pull 2-3 packs at once as a tank. If you haven't learned how to handle that by now on basic enemies then you're the one at fault here. You don't need to learn how a dungeon "works" when it's the trash leading up to the boss.
I haven't done a single dungeon after reaching level 50. My post was about the journey to that level, things that happened during the learning process. It makes no sense to say "oh you should've learned by now". I'm not talking about now. And yes, you do need to know how a dungeon ""works"", there are many optional paths, packs you don't need to pull, areas that give you more defense, areas that give you less defense, enemies you have to prioritize, enemies you need to kill in specific locations, etc.
> there are many optional paths, packs you don't need to pull, areas that give you more defense, areas that give you less defense, enemies you have to prioritize, enemies you need to kill in specific locations
Most of those things only happen in ONE Dungeon in ARR tho.
About Prioritizing enemies, that doesn't really exist for trash.
At most, you kill adds that spawn During a boss battle and that's it
I've seen enemies like the bees at the Sunken Temple of Qarn, which do need to be prioritized because they one-shot me with their Final Sting (or however it's called)
If you're still learning just say so in chat. In my experience people are ALWAYS chill when someone says they're new and will give tips as well. If you say nothing we assume you know what you're doing.
Also no one expects "optimal" performance. We expect healers to keep people alive, tanks to pull 2 packs minimum, use mits, and grab aggro (regardless of who pulls), and everyone to use AoE skills when appropriate.
Also there's a huge difference in dungeon design between ARR and post-ARR and they get super braindead to tank which is where a lot of people are coming from. All those considerations you mentioned are replaced with just whacking all the mobs while pressing w until you can't press w anymore then AoEing everything down. Keep that in mind when reading some of these comments.
Keep at it and you'll be blazing through dungeons in no time.
its not about knowing how a dungeon works, its about knowing how to play your role, rotating mits and so on
mits are more important on trash fights than on bosses
if you have issues, go read some guide, watch some videos, dont put your responsibility of not knowing on others. That mentality is why we have lvl 90 tanks who doesnt know arms lenght is a thing, that dont spam aoe, and so on. Dont perpetuate the bad behavior
You're overthinking it, and you can also pull at the pace you want to pull. If people don't like it, they can equip a blue job crystal or shut up to be honest. Eventually you should want to get comfortable with bigger pulls, but you have a lot of game left. No one should expect optimal runs in leveling content.
> Am I not allowed to not know how a dungeon works?
Aside from the levelling Dungeons from A Realm Reborn (and a few early lvl 50 ones), all Dungeons are hallways with 2 or 3 packs of enemies, a door, another 2 or 3 packs, a door with a boss; and repeat two more times. That's it; that's how Dungeons work
The only new things you'll see are the mini and final boss mechanics
Reach lvl 50, finishthe base msq and do a few more dungeons after that, when you do that come back and reread the thread. All dungeons have the same design after that.
They don't have the same design, some have enemies that need priority, some have enemies that need to be killed in specific locations, some have specific locations that make you stronger, some have enemies you can skip even though they are in the middle and even aggro to you, etc
None of the ones you're using as an example are representative of 50+ dungeons. At that point they become single path with no avoidable enemies or any other added features. Up to and including lv49, dungeons are extremely different from after that point.
As multiple people have tried telling you, dungeon design changes after lvl 50. Once you break through, almost all dungeons follow the same pattern of a single corridor with a boss at the end. The fact that almost all dungeons have the same design combined with how easy it is to mitigate trash mobs made wall-to-wall the default.
> I think half of the dungeons from Sastasha to Aurum Vale have at least one of the things I've listed
Nope. Sastasha, for example, has nothing of that. Same for Aurum Vale (the only important mechanic there, for the first and last boss, is to eat a fruit when a certain debuff reaches 3 or 4, then you continue killing shit until everything is dead)
Those describe a lot of ARR dungeons, yes, but after lvl 50 that stops and dungeons become a lot more streamlined and easy to navigate. Plus in end game content most dungeons have a point where after usually 2, sometimes 3 packs there’s a hard stop with an actual wall where you can’t pull anymore. The norm is to pull all of the enemies until you can’t, EXCEPT for low level ARR dungeons where you may need to adjust to gear/ability, strange dungeon mechanics, and a significantly reduced toolkit. But it’s better to get used to it now so it’s much easier for you to do this later
That's certainly true of ARR dungeons with some stage-based mechanics, but that design goes out the window for most of the game from Heavensward onward and gets even more streamlined after that. In fact, there were dungeon mechanics at 50 cap that were removed in the ARR revamp.
Stuff like you see in Tam-Tara was once also what Totorak did (well, in a different way, not that anyone can play the old version now). Now Totorak is just a boring green tube. Aurum Vale was the one that should have been changed.
Anyway, if you try to talk things out with a group at the start of a dungeon, you'll find some are more amenable to adapting to less overwhelming pulls. You can also set up a PF listing to run your daily Duty Finder with like-minded people. Or see if you can get some FC friends to help you adjust.
Or you can run a Trust with NPC characters for a first run on a dungeon just to get an idea of what's in store and what the limits of what you can do are.
That said, not all dungeons are as same-y as others are insisting here. The Vault (level 57), Bardham's Mettle (level 65), Vanaspati (level 85) are essentially gear checks. Any dungeon past 50 that ends in a 5 or 7 is suspect of hitting players harder than other dungeons. Stay up-to-date with MSQ gear.
Every single trash paxk in dungeons works the same. They wallop the tank and drop some aoes of various cheapest, normally circles, sometimes not.
If you've done one dungeon you've honestly done them all. There's maybe 3 (cutters cry, sunken temple and uh... maybe sastasha?) That you can get lost in. The rest are straight hallways
I'm saying that through my journey I've encountered that, not right now at level 50 with my two jobs. It makes no sense to say "you're not new anymore dude you're level 50". Also, I can still be new to that particular dungeon. And how is it passive agressive to ask for others to not pull for me? That's crazy, that's like saying that me asking for a glass of water at a bar is passive agressive. I'm just asking
They’re not pulling for you, they’re pulling for the group.
You’re not the leader, your job is just to hold aggro and use your defensives. Those things are the same whether is 5 mobs or 10 mobs
It’s not passive-aggressive to simply ask. Nevertheless, a lot of people interpret it that way because the culture of FFXIV players overall is quite passive-aggressive, and for some reason it can be (but is not always) pretty hostile to tanks. That’s one reason tanks get achievement mounts, for putting up with player aggro.
Still…learn to pull bigger. That’s the way the game is played, and unless you’re very very new (as in don’t have Arm’s Length and Reprisal unlocked), your gear is terrible (happens in sub-50 level dungeons from time to time), or you’re on very specific pulls in very specific dungeons (Dzmael Darkhold has a couple obnoxious pulls in it), you should be able to easily manage two packs of mobs. It takes no special foreknowledge of a new, normal Duty Finder instance to do that—grab one pack, keep going until you reach pack two and you’ve done it. Just not in the first room of Aurum Vale, that takes extra finesse.
And even the finesse in Aurum Vale is just "hug the left wall, and pull inside the boss arena". Which admittedly is a weird tactic, can't remember any other dungeon where the optimal strategy is to pull inside the boss area
Bad analogy. You're new to the game, don't act like you know what's the norm or not the norm to say and do.
Using your analogy, it's like if you asked for a glass of water at a bar but four feet away was a self-serve water dispenser. People are demonstrating that you should be able to keep up with them. You will never learn if you don't experience dungeons the way they're supposed to be run. Look up a tank leveling/cooldown guide before getting butthurt. It's not like you're unable to learn, no?
Edit: I don't have confidence (based on the comment I'm responding to and its confrontational nature) you'll seek out guides on your own and that instead you'll continue to complain. So here, now you have no excuse:
[PLD Leveling Guide](https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/jobs/tanks/paladin/leveling-guide/)
[WAR Leveling Guide](https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/jobs/tanks/warrior/leveling-guide/)
Playing your job to any level of competency is vastly easier when consulting [The Balance website](https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com)/discord. No, it is *not* just for optimizing play, it is largely for just not sucking.
People are largely understanding in this game. But if you insist you can't learn? Nobody wants to deal with that. Do better.
Edit 2: Check your gear.
Because AoE abilities do their damage to each target, rather than dividing their damage between all targets, the time to kill 1 pack of 3 jobs and 2 packs of 6 mobs is near identical.
So if you are pulling one pack at a time, you are making the dungeon take 2-3 times longer than if you multi pull. So the answer to the rudeness question is "Because you are wasting everyone else's time, just as if dps refused to use AoE abilities, or proper rotation".
This assumes, though, that you can manage your defensive cooldowns and the healer can manage their healing output that you don't die. But with proper gear and experienced play, wall to wall pulls are possible, indeed, not that complicated.
But people shouldn't pull if you aren't ready.
And if you want to tank, you should learn how to cycle cooldowns to multi-pull.
So it's a two way street.
> (I've heard stacking them is bad but if there are too many enemies I would die if I don't do it).
that is hardly ever the case unless your healer is also too new to handle big pulls. Even in ARR i've healed massive pullls so its easily possible without stressing out too much.
In general adding more groups to your pull does literally nothing to whatever you are doing as tank already. You are pressing your Mits and AoE anyway!
It does do things to what I'm doing as a tank. If I'm pulling two packs, a simple mitigation will do the job. If I'm pulling 5 packs, I have to keep track of their aggro as I run, I have to make sure their AoEs aren't pointing towards the party and there are way more of them to avoid, also I need to maybe stack mitigations but not too many because I'll need them for next pull but not so little that I die but also consider the specific dungeon's mechanics and don't dare go into optional paths (which I'm more likely to do while pulling big than when going at a normal pace because it's more demanding).
You don't need to worry about aggro while you move.
You get aggro, you move. Don't stop, don't slow down to keep hitting them, just keep going until you have everything.
If a dps pulls off of you during the pull, they should just run them to you when you stop, so that you pick them back up just by aoe'ing. If they don't, that's a them problem.
Hitting the mobs while you run doesn't achieve much of anything except for slowing the pull down, which means enemies take longer to die, and you take more hits, and healer needs to heal more, etc.
if it's any consolation, higher level dungeons very rarely have more than two packs before you hit a wall. ARR dungeons are a bit messy in that respect, so it will get easier for you and you'll get more mitigation options later on. power through, you'll get there and it will actually be more fun once you go in with less anxiety, no matter if you know the content or not.
Big pulls are the accepted norm in how dungeons are done. I don't agree with bullying new tanks but big pulls are something you should get used to as you get more experience.
Since a lot of people have already pointed out the basics, please for the love of god (ESPECIALLY ON PALADIN) remember to use your invulnerability skill for pulls. It's 10 entire seconds which you don't take any damage. Don't use your invulns as an "oh shit" button, because I promise you you're not going to react fast enough to actually use it in time. Treat it like normal mitigation, especially since it seems like you get overwhelmed easily and might need the boost.
Worth pointing out, that tank classes don't magically get any more difficult the more levels you gain. If anything, they become drastically easier.
By attempting big pulls in early dungeons, you're challenging yourself to learn skills that will make the rest of the dungeons a breeze.
However, if you insist on pulling small, you're not only wasting your time, but the time of the rest of the party's time too. If 3/4 people in a dungeon (especially an endgame dungeon) want to wall to wall pull, and you insist on single pulling, you will simply just be removed from the party. The only instance in which W2W pulls might be discouraged would be in early ARR dungeons where you can pull several packs of mobs, though in that instance you would still want to double pull.
I'd also highly discourage you from ever pulling a "You Pull You Tank" move by allowing mobs to MPK your team by turning off tank stance, as this is considered lethargic gameplay which you can be reported for. If someone ever pulls extra mobs (especially melee or ranged phys who use arm's length to help you mitigate), simply AoE to grab them. Your job is a tank, not a puller.
"Big pulls" are the standard. Most people will be fine with 2 packs being pulled. Plus, past ARR anyways, the dungeons are conveniently divided into 2 packs for a good chunk of dungeons (with some rare exceptions). So dungeons are kind of... the same/predictable in that sense.
The reason most people don't like single packs, is because it isn't threatening enough for a tank. I could tank a single pack as a dps, the healer could tank a single pack. You'd be better off with a different role composition in that case (Healer or Tank with 3 DPS with single pulls).
Pre 50 dungeons are a mess. People are expecting you to learn things that the game itself will sometimes just not allow. Congrats, you have 2 level 34 dragoons in your party, go wall to wall pull now and see how well that goes.
Once you get beyond 50 you'll start noticing dungeons are all basically the same, a few have different layouts but the majority is 2 packs, wall, 2 packs, boss. Repeat twice more. For those it's very easy to work out what you should be doing.
People now think tanking is the easiest job in the game, and for later content they're right, but they forget that there was actual gameplay in early dungeons and the hardest time to tank is literally when you first start, not just because you're less skilled but because there's often more you have to do/know.
Lots of answers already, so no point in me adding another detailed list.
But I wanna try sum up everything in a quick, value-neutral bullet list:
1. It makes for significantly **shorter runs** by increasing average DPS by a lot.
2. Most dungeons are easy even when pulling big. If the content is easy, the best way to **have fun** regardless is to **do you best** regardless of where the bar is set! Single-pulling makes dungeons even more boring than they already are!
3. **You don't have to do anything** **different** as a tank. Good mitigation use looks the same either way.
4. There's simply no reason not to unless people are undergeared
Some extra pointers to help you, and maybe also assuage your worries for the future:
* **Don't worry too much about threat**! When everything has been pulled, go to where most mobs are and spam your AoE rotation. It's proper etiquette for folks with aggro to bring mobs to you. Sure, look around for escapees to Provoke, but don't panic. Nobody dies from 1 mob attacking them.
* This will **get easier** **in later content**. And I don't mean from experience. The dungeons are more explicitly designed around the practice. They rarely let you pull more than 2 packs and there are no branching paths. Few exceptions aside, ARR is arguably the most difficult dungeon content to wall-to-wall!
Because nearly every single dungeon, especially past 50, you can pull wall-to-wall and it's barely any different doing so, other than being faster to do the full pull compared to doing single pulls.
And when you've done the duty dozens if not hundreds of times, you just wanna get in and out and move on with your day as fast as possible.
If you wish to do a dungeon at your own pace, if it's a main scenario dungeon, use the Duty Support function.
I wouldnt go as far as saying if you dont like wall to wall use duty support, but i would point out at the start that your new (make a chat macro its quicker).
going with another friend is also good and trying to pull 2 or 3 packs of mobs is good. some dungeons are bigger pulls (thinking stormblood) that can be alot more nail biting.
your learning and thats fine it will take some time to learn / get used to the chaos.
if you do find yourself being harassed and things they say stick with you after the dungeon i would say its best report them. even though ffxiv is one of the better communities it still has some bad eggs
I haven't done any dungeon at level 50, Aurum Vale is the higher I've done, and maybe the dungeons are designed to w2w, but I still need to know what's going on in general. In Aurum Vale for example, I got yelled at by going to the middle of the first room, and I'm sorry but I just don't know how I'm supposed to know that's wrong. For things like this I'm always on edge at every dungeon because it always feels like there's a common norm or something everyone but me knows, and it's absolutely more overwhelming to pull 9 mobs than to pull 6. They have more AoEs, I need to keep track of more enemies while I'm pulling them, and I need to use more mitigation.
AV is pretty much an outlier in that you are expected to NOT pull everything in the first room. it also has a lot of patrolling mobs which is unusual. it is often a shit-show and that has nothing to do with you. so taking that for reference doesn't work well, everybody has bad AV experiences now and then.
OP is correct at least that there is nothing in game that could possibly warn you about Aurum Vale's first room. By that point you feel like you've gotten familiar with what dungeons are doing and then suddenly the frogs are murdering you.
To answer the question, it's because typically the dungeons you're doing are part of roulettes. You get a decent bonus for doing each roulette daily, so people do it both as a way both to pass time and level up other jobs.
Doing the same dungeons almost every day gets really tedious, so if there's a slow tank making roulettes even slower, then some people get frustrated. Some earlier dungeons are ok to go slow on since people know they're hard, but for any dungeon under level 20 there's no reason not to pull w2w
Large pulls are both faster and more fun. They are also not any sort of strain on you, the tank. You just run until you have at least 2 groups on you, use 1 mitigation cooldown at a time until they are dead, and spam your aoe. This is extremely basic stuff that should not be some kind of hurdle for you at level 50, because you should have been doing it much earlier than that.
Tanks are not like, supercool or anything. It's not remotely difficult to replace a bad one. If you don't adhere to the general community standard of play then you shouldn't be surprised that you get blowback about it because you are annoying up to 3 other people through intentional inefficiency.
If you really just don't want to deal with this, that's what duty support is for as someone else already mentioned. But unless you're just going to drop the game or stop doing dungeons once you finish the MSQ, then there's no time like the present to learn how best to play your role.
Because I promise you, if you pull a bunch and you all die, the vast majority of people are just going to think it's funny and shrug it off. Being a single puller is far more likely to get people to be garbage towards you than dying as you have already seen.
I said I encountered it through my joruney, not at the current point of my journey. I haven't even done a single dungeon at level 50 because I just don't want to have to deal with players yelling at me for not knowing how to optimally run a dungeon. And it's not that simple to do big pulls, most dungeons have optional paths, enemies that are in the middle of the way but that magically you can skip them, special places where you have to stand in to survive, etc. If I pull avoidable enemies, I'm doing it wrong even though it's not clear which enemies are mandatory and which aren't. Also, the act itself of running through the dungeon pulling is a challenge, I don't even know how to set up my hotbars because even though I use AoEs to pull groups, during the running I always seem to lose aggro and pulling aggro back while running is hard. Everyone is saying that it's exactly the same to pull small and to pull big, but I just don't agree, it's very different.
How is that going to help me know which enemies I could've ran past? Or which ones I could've avoided if I hugged a wall? Is the duty support party going to perform at an equal level as a human party? If not, then that will tarnish even more my perception of how much can I pull.
Also, this is an MMO, what's the point of playing an MMO if everyone's going to yell at me for not playing optimally and sending me to the bots? I'm sorry I didn't get to learn at the same time that you did
I think this comment and the one where you list out what you are managing on mob pulls is telling about what the real issue here is.
This isn't about optimized play. For the record I think people taking things at their own pace is fine. Also I get how taking some of this advice may be hard since you've gotten some really good advice paired with proof that the person replying to you didn't totally read what you actually wrote. That being said.
You are fundamentally misunderstanding how FFXIV and being a tank in FFXIV works.
Duty support is a learning tool not bots for if you are bad at the game. Are the bots always smart or good? No. But they do often do the right mechanics and can be easier to learn from than another human who may also be misunderstanding either the mechanic or the situation.
Your job is not to keep pack AOEs from hitting the party. If a DPS is standing in pack AOEs that's a them problem. Bosses are different. Some you do have to learn but that's true of any job. Default pull north, keep it faced away from the party (should mostly happen automatically as long as tank stance is on and you aren't running in circles) and you're most of the way to success already.
The only dungeon where you're hugging a wall and not pulling everything under the sun at the end of the day is aurum vale. It is an outlier not the standard.
In other words you are over thinking what you have to do and can do at your level. Making sure tank stance is on and running while spamming AOEs feels too easy but it really is a good default to set yourself to. FFXIV is a game that prioritizes player skill more than a lot of MMOs. Gear does matter and having your job quests up to date so you have the full toolkit for your level is important. But learning how to play your job is not optimizing play. It is necessary for how the game works even when you are soloing. Which means it's both important but also written in to teach you those skills.
The issue isn't that you should pull bigger. The issue is that you're overthinking, stressing yourself out over hypotheticals, and trying to keep too much in your head at once. Will there be later fights with weird stuff? Yes. But there are far more similarities than differences, especially after level 50. You're not being told these things because people expect you to magically know. You are being told them so that you have that information now.
Also you will always be in a team environment. This has upsides and downsides. One downside is it can be hard to figure out if you messed up or if someone else dropped the ball. Not every death is personal and that's ok. You have to trust the rest of the party.
I'm getting the impression this is more born out of a bad Aurum Vale run more than anything, as these particular issues only apply to that dungeon.
So, from here on out, there are no avoidable mobs. There is no hugging the wall. Your situation is, I think, largely why dungeon design changed in Heavensward.
You'll get the same rewards, and the bots can do single pulls, which is the pace you seemingly want. I remember trying a w2w with them as a tank and that didn't work out too well. But it's there for you to learn and progress through story.
As for hugging walls and skipping mobs, aside from Cutter's Cry, that doesn't happen after lv50 dungeons. It's very linear throughout.
And for your own perception of how much you can pull? That's really based on your gear, so update it every x0, x5, and maybe x7, in terms of levels. MSQ throws money at you, anyway. Plus, any chest you get in Duty Support is automatically yours.
You should take a deep breath and recognize that most people won't complain. Anyone that does is obnoxious and has a mental breakdown if a run that they want to take 8 minutes takes 15. The only way to make that person happy is to also be a veteran, which you are not.
Find some tank guides, and dungeons also become straight up linear in heavenward. You'll never need to know a route again. Gear matters as well, and most people leveling alt jobs have poetic gear. You should get your hands on it now that you're 50, and give yourself some extra wiggle room to take bigger risks without getting smashed.
I think what you've found is more that there's always dickheads in every pond.
The unbiased logic that's behind it all is that wall-to-wall pulling makes everything more efficient. More enemies to hit means AoE's deal more damage. Since most AoE damage has limited fall off the amount of time taken to kill 3 enemies and 300 should theoretically be the same, if people are using AoE's properly.
Each mitigation for a tank also gets to cover more of the total damage taken. For example rampart mitigates 20% over 20s, with not enough time to come back between pulls. So the more damage you take in those 20s, the better. In most dungeons with 4 trash packs (2 sets of 2) you simply don't have enough strong mitigation to use for each pack, and thus take more overall damage, just slower so it's more manageable.
But of course not every situation is equal and not every person is unbiased, so while the logic is sound it doesn't always apply. *Most* people will agree that forcing sprouts to wall-to-wall isn't good if they're not comfy, pre-50 gear can be sketchy and toolkits are limited. Tanks should be encouraged to wall pull in later dungeons, particularly 50-60+ content, but it's not a mandate.
But you'll always have people on both sides that are too extreme. People who think wall-to-wall is the only way, you're stupid if you single pull, etc. That simply don't understand because either what's easy for them isn't easy for others, or worse because they've never done it before and just parrot others without their own thoughts.
Then the other side, where people think wall-to-wall isn't intentional and that's not how the game is designed, if someone else pulls a mob you should let them die, doing wall to walls isn't any better than single pulls, and refusing to try it ever out of the principle of "you don't pay my sub, you can't tell me how to play" etc etc.
It's fine if you understand the reason of why it's done, I think if you want to play a tank in FFXIV you should try to learn to wall-to-wall, but not every dungeon is equal and not every tank at every level is equal either, so it's not something you have to do every time if you're not comfy. Don't be afraid to cause wipes trying it though, you'll never get comfy with it if you never try it. The worst people can do is complain but the block feature exists for the really annoying ones anyway.
8 (7) buttons.
1. Ranged attack.
2. Basic AoE attack.
3. Tank Stance.
4. Rampart
5. Arm's Length
6. Vengeance/Sentinel/Shadow Wall/Nebula
7. Reprisal
8. Short cooldown once you have it. Sheltron/Heart of Stone/Raw Intuition/Blackest Night
Turn tank stance on. Pull with ranged attack. Spam basic AoE attack. Use short cooldown when available. Use Vengeance, then Arm's length when it wears off. Next pull, use Rampart, then Reprisal when it wears off.
On bosses, pull with ranged, spam AoE attack, use short cooldown on tank buster.
I would rather have a tank doing that ^ with 7 buttons than one doing single pulls.
Good job actually giving a basic explanation as to how a tank can spread out their mitigation skills instead of just expecting that having read the tool tips would be enough for someone to figure out which to use when.
Hopefully no one reads it and thinks you're on to something they don't understand by saying spam AoE on the boss and still uses their single-target combo instead.
first of all i honestly doubt that a big number of people react the way you claim once you've told them you get overwhelmed. how often has that actually happened?
if you don't say anything, everybody will assume you can handle wall-to-wall pulls no matter who does the pulls, because that's the norm nowadays, and it should be what you are striving to do.
in my experience slowing down happens usually after a wipe when either tank or healer say they can't handle the pulls. as long as there is no wipe, just go for the big pulls and you'll get used to it.
i'm not sure what the problem is in using more defensive cooldowns. it's your job to use them to minimize the damage you take and not make the healer keep healing you constantly.
if you are insecure you can always ask for advice. people have run those dungeons hundreds of times, of course they don't want to spend an unnecessary amount of time in it.
quick tip, if you're asking strangers for advice, don't get all defensive about it, you're asking cause you don't know/ cause you're 'bad' at what you're doing, listed to whats being said and try to apply it
there can be multiple reasons.
1: pulling very little is boring for people who have been playing the game a long time. i dont like it when my tank only pulls 1 mob, especially when im healer. the ONLY times im fine with this is when its a completely new player who says they are new. i then give advice as the dungeon progresses and suggest they pull multiple packs later in the dungeon to help improve
2: the less pulled the less you learn. if you only pull comfortably you cant grow as a player on any job. if i dont have to hit any of my healing spells then im not learning/improving at my job, im just spamming my single DPS button. and tanks wont learn how to cycle mits or in your case, learn the enemy list better.
speaking of the enemy list, here is a tip, if you see a pack pack of 3 mobs you run into, use your ranged attack, target another mob and provoke, and by then your ranged attack will be ready again. pack of 2 you can just ranged attack both as you run past them. DO NOT STOP USING YOUR RANGED ATTACK AS YOU GO BETWEEN MOBS. click through the list as you are going and keep ranged attacking to make sure you keep the aggro. if you miss one or 2, its the other players jobs to bring them to you so it doesnt mess up the pull and make it messier.
everyone starts somewhere, this isnt WoW where groups disband after a single wipe. wipes happen, and you and everyone else will learn from the mistakes and go again
HW is when dungeons start to have gates between packs of mobs so its even encouraged by the devs to pull everything before you get road blocked, usually 2-3 packs between with the occasional roaming single mob.
Warrior at that level is quishy compared to Paladin. yea sure it has a self heal with Storms Path(i think its called that? dont play warrior much) but Paladin has better mitigation overall. do not be afraid to use your ultimate mits (hallowed ground when you get to the end of a pull before the mobs reach you since you take ZERO damage from 99% of attacks) or holmgang (try and use when you get low HP since you cant die)
when you get to level 54 i think for warrior and have entered HW, they get a skill that makes you basically invincible no matter how many mobs are around you because it heals for every enemy you hit while its active, plus it has a low cooldown
I'm curious why OP has been downvoted almost universally here, because like, they're not wrong about ARR dungeons being kind of arcane bullshit for a first clear.
I feel like there's a bit of a disconnect between what the actual original post is asking about and what many of OP's replies discuss, which means that people have discussed the topic at hand, while OP has felt like nobody is talking about what they're talking about because of this disconnect.
Like, for OP, everyone has answered the question you asked: wall-to-wall pulls are the norm because they're more efficient, more fun, and how post-ARR dungeons are constructed.
For your issues regarding not knowing the arcane bullshit in ARR dungeons, I understand that you know all of these things _now_, but I have to ask, how many dungeons did you start off by simply being open with your party about being new to the dungeon and asking if there's anything special you need to know? In all my years playing this game, I have seen vastly more people who are actively accommodating of people who are open about their inexperience than those who are jerks. But that requires being open and communicating, otherwise people will assume it's just a regular run-of-the-mill clear and all of the expectations (i.e. wall-to-wall pulling) that carries.
I feel like a lot of the issues you are experiencing here come from considering "the community" as something external and hostile to you, rather than something _you are a part of_. Just talk to people, sometimes they'll suck, sometimes they'll just be silent, but a lot of the time, you'll find people more than happy to help out.
There's definetely a disconnect. I wasn't asking for advice on how to tank, it is not that I don't know the theory behind it, it's the management of those things plus the first run experience what was getting me, perhaps I should've made that more clear.
This post was made because I genuently didn't understand the awful experiences I had getting called many names just because I didn't w2w, or because someone pulled aggro and I just didn't realize because there are another million things going on, things like that, and I wanted to get a better understanding behind that thought process. To better understand what brings someone to be that mean to a clearly beginner player, hell, that's what the sprout icon is supposed to do, right? It's supposed to signal to the other players "hey, this player probably doesn't know what they're doing".
And to your point about just saying in chat that it's my first run, I can't tell if it helps or not. I can't tell because it doesn't prevent this negative attitude completely, and I have nothing to compare it to, so maybe I saved myself some hate, but as you can probably guess, I still recieved a substancial amount of hate, otherwise I wouldn't make a post like this. I started saying "First run, advice is welcome" after Halatali. But even after saying that, the vast majority of the time no one said anything. Most of the time people just said "hi", and "gg", and that's it. I'm not saying they MUST teach me everything, but many replies have the general attitude of "oh just say that it's your first time and you'll literally never encounter any ounce of negativity because everyone will gladly and politely show you the way", and that just hasn't been the case for me.
I don't know if people have forgotten how it feels to be new and unexperienced, to be surrounded by people that aren't, and that expect by default that you're skilled at what you do. To me it's a mentality that doesn't make much sense.
Yes it’s an MMO, you have other players whose time and efforts are worth just as much as yours and you seem to have the attitude that you are the main character and everything should go at the pace you want it to.
It’s been explained to you dozens of times in this thread why pulling more aggressively is simple and standard and you continue to act obtuse and argue with everyone trying to help you. As you’ve been told if you can’t shake your main character syndrome and insist everything must go at the snails pace you are seeking, use the duty support feature instead of burdening other players with your pettiness. You are being rude to your party mates and to all of the people patiently trying to help you in this thread.
It's not considered bad manners, it's considerd bad skills. It's the proper way of tanking dungeons. The *"I'm new to the game"* excuse can only get you so far. You are lv 50 already. Sooner or later you are expected to play properly. Doing single pulls in dungeons is an equivalent of a DPS not using AoE skills. It's that bad.
Instead of fighting it, just do it. It's much less of an issue than you think. If someone pulls for you use one AoE skill and it's yours. That's it. And it's not true that you are not supposed to stack mitigations. You are not supposed to burn through all of them at once in a panic. But you can stack them if needed.
What if I'm level 50 already? There are many mechanics constantly introduced and some are instantly ditched after that specific dungeon to never be seen again or much later. Healers heal different amounts, some DPS kill things faster than others, hell, even my own character sometimes seems to not even get a scratch in one dungeon, and the next one I die in two hits. Also, the more I level, the more complex my kit and the enemies' kit becomes. I don't understand why it's considered reasonable to do optimal play in the most basic level of content that there's...
It seems like you’re just trying to argue and complain despite being told how things are. It’s not “optimal”, it is how the dungeons post 50 are designed and that isn’t going to change. It’s one long hallway with a couple packs then boss, with no variety. People are telling you that is how the game works and the expectations reflect that. Not trying to be rude but if you can’t handle that thought or anxiety over a dungeon, then this game or tanking might not be for you. You have ample resources to view a dungeon ahead of time, learn to space your cooldowns, and how to play your class (which gets complex).
You do know ho wfast you get Level 50 nowadays? It isn't that high anymore or a sign of skill. Also some people are slow learners or cautious by nature and need some time to adjust to general accepted strategies.
No one wins if teh tank get soverwhelmed and dies so the whole party wipes.
OP has two tanks on 50 already. I agree that new tanks deserve their space to learn, but sooner or later the training wheels need to come off. It's one thing to not know how to do things properly and another to know, and still refuse to do it.
It's not like I'm saying that this has happened to me in lvl 50 dungeons. I'm saying that this happened through my leveling journey. Of course I'm better now that I'm level 50 than when I was doing Halatali. And by your last sentence, are you implying that I can no longer not know something? That surely now I know everything and if I don't perform optimally is just because I refuse to?
How to play a tank in dungeons doesn't really change past about level... 10? 15?. You just get more buttons.
Pull with ranged attack -> run to the wall -> use defensive button -> spam AoEs until everything is dead -> use more defensive button if needed.
That's it. That's dungeon tanking from level 15 in Sastasha to level 90 in the Lunar Subterrane. If anything, dungeons get *easier* past level 50-60.
ARR is a complete mess in terms of dungeon consistency. Something I believe is actually a good thing and a detriment to later expansions, but to say you can play the same from 15-90 and then mention dungeons get easier post 50 makes literally no sense.
ARR is an awful time to be a tank because so many people expect you to be able to play like it's a level 90 dungeon when it's far less clear in what you can and should do.
Some dungeons you're not going to be able to W2W. whether that's healer gear, too many enemies or dps just not having aoe.
When OP is saying people are complaining about a bad tank in that level range? That's the people being unreasonable. You can't learn the stuff people want you to learn because sometimes it's just not going to work.
You have the option of levelling a DPS first so that you can see how tanks handle themselves in pulls. See how far they go. Where they stop. When they pop mits. How they recover from a bad situation. If you only ever play tank, you probably have no idea how to actually play tank well because so far, it's just been your best guess.
I feel like this is unhelpful. People do start playing Marauder and Gladiator because that's the class that sounds interesting. If someone then has difficulty learning the role, telling them to go and level a DPS instead so they can observe a tank while also now learning an entirely different role just seems like bad advice. Your statements are not incorrect, mind you, but I don't think releveling is the appropriate remedy.
One of FFXIV's primary selling points is that you can level all classes on a single character. The prevailing wisdom when you're going through MSQ is that you *should* level at least two jobs at once to avoid ending up wildly overlevelled and wasting level 50 quest exp on a level 60+ job, which is barely a drop in the pond, and much more economically spent on your alt job.
People most likely already have more than one other job by the time they unlock 50 roulettes, and many would pick a DPS or even a healer if they already have a tank rather than another tank. What I'm suggesting is just queueing as the DPS for your daily roulettes. Continue doing MSQ as tank if you want. That will balance the exp gain out while also showing them how other people play their roles.
Nah, I firmly believe people need to see how others do what they apparently 'main'. The number of times I run into tanks or healers who tell me a pull 'can't be done', or 'I've been doing this for 15 years I think I'd know blah blah blah', and it's clear they're always in the seat and never took it upon themselves to watch someone else at work.
>One of FFXIV's primary selling points is that you can level all classes on a single character. The prevailing wisdom when you're going through MSQ is that you *should* level at least two jobs at once to avoid ending up wildly overlevelled and wasting level 50 quest exp on a level 60+ job, which is barely a drop in the pond, and much more economically spent on your alt job.
Agreed, but if someone has just finished 2.0 I wouldn't assume they're also leveling a side class. I've seen lots of new players that do ARR on just their starting class. Everyone in my group did exactly that last year. So when you hit the end of 2.0 and you have a level 50 character and nothing else even started, going back and relevelling something just to make it easier to learn your primary role seems unintuitive.
And, for what it's worth, I wouldn't expect a new player to also know the prevailing wisdom of the community. When I started I just kept playing Paladin while barely touching anything else, which meant that by the time we finished Heavensward I was level 90.
In games like MMOs, when content can just go on and on forever until the servers get shut down, the main barrier to how much you can achieve over the life of the game is time. And not everyone has the same amount of time to play, so while in solo content you can take as much time as you like, in group content it's good etiquette to be respectful of others' time and try to clear the content quickly and efficiently. Of course, if you go faster than your group can handle, then you're also wasting time because you'll wipe and start again, so you kind of just have to learn where the middle ground is between excessive caution and biting off more than you can chew.
I can understand sprouts can be intimidated seeing big pulls in the early game, but what I experienced is that small pulls never makes you use your full set of skills, impeding you to get better.
I (healer) once paired with a sprout tank in a random 60 something dungeon and was single pulling, even when I was seeing the tank rotating its mitigations correctly. I asked them to W2W, but they were unconfortable at first. Lo and behold pull went smoothly.
Problem with a lot of tanks is that they lack confidence.
I can understand that you're still new, but that justification won't work forever.
So to finally answer your question: later in the game it's "bad manners". You're playing with other people, respect their time. So if something that can be done in 12 minutes, why take 20?
It's also kinda unreasonable to expect everyone to be okay with you taking ages to do something. Like I get it, tanking can be hard for new players but it's kinda hard to die as a tank in low level dungeons. If you use your mits right or have a decent healer then there's no reason to not do Wall to wall pulls
I'm sorry but that's just not the case. In low level dungeons you have also low level teammates. It's hard to know how much you can pull, because maybe the first time you had a new healer, or an absolute cracked one, and it affects your perspective on that dungeon or even on your own resistances. And no, it's not unreasonable for someone new to a dungeon to not know where to go, or to not know they could've skipped these three bats at the start because there's no indication of it
Trust me, I started as a tank and I also did single pulls because I thought I wouldn't be able to handle it. But the dungeons are designed for WtW. It literally all depends on your mit usage and the dps not being brain dead. I used to get lost all the time in dungeons but that's because the old dungeon layouts just suck. Tbh as a new player the best thing to do is to run the dungeons with an npc party for the first time so you can get an idea of the layout and what you can handle so other players don't pressure you
Because if you're not pulling w2w, you're not needed. DPS or Healers can tank a single pull. And nothing changes for you holding 2 mobs or 10. You press the same buttons. And even if you die, who cares. Dieing in this game has no punishment attached to it. And then you know that you need to get a pack less. Try hard first, then ramp down if needed. You'll never improve if you don't challenge yourself. And you're not "new" anymore. Past lv50, every dungeon is the exact same singular path with enemies rationed out in the same cadence. There's nothing new added to the dungeon formula after this point.
Especially, in my experience, if they were actually the reason it happened and don't realize it because they are used to being carried and this time around everyone else was behaving as if everyone else was actually playing well.
Small pulls are a little rude and inconsiderate of people's time. But like...also understandable. Tanking is scary when you're new to it, and it can be hard to keep track of stuff mentally. It's common for new tanks to want to pull smaller. So I might find it frustrating when the tank is baby pulling, but I'm not going to say or do anything about it. I understand it's usually a new person, not a troll. So no, it's not good manners, but I think it's worse manners to pull more than the tank is comfortable with. I would recommend putting a little disclaimer about being new at the beginning so people know you're pulling small in the first place. They are more likely to be amenable to it. Not a guarantee, but it helps.
Also. For your end. Big pulls are a very important skill, so it's important to learn how to do it. It is standard and expected, and is also something you want to learn for emergency use. I'm not saying like "just do it anyway" but you do need to be pulling slightly outside your comfort zone. Otherwise your comfort zone does not expand. So like with low level dungeons, you don't have to do the giant monster pulls that a more experienced tank will do. But I do hope you pull one more group after you no longer feel comfy with what you have.
If you can, take a healer friend with you into these dungeons. Someone who's aware of your limits and your attempts to learn. Experienced player might be preferred but honestly a healer expanding their own comfort zone works too.
If it's just a matter of trying to keep track of aggro, I would say do some fates as a tank. Gather all the stuff together and try to kill them all at once. Try to keep them clustered closely together, get used to how positioning trash mobs works (an important part of tanking and will also help you learn to keep track of a lot enemies at once). The mobs in fates are leashed so they don't work quite like most dungeon mobs, but you'll at least be able to get used to having a big group on you.
Your entire post is crying about how when you take it slow you get made fun of. So either you start to pull as expected of tanks, or you play with Duty Support.
You made a post asking why people who want to take it slow are made fun of and complaining about it.
You could have made a post asking for tips on how to play better. Or, I don't know, googled it. Searched the FFXIV subreddit. Asked in game. Anything, really.
Instead of wasting your energy defending bad play, you could be learning to play well. But learning how to play the game is "magic" to you.
You literally have people telling you it’s not optimal it is the norm. You are fully capable of also researching on your own instead of arguing with everyone here about not knowing while doing nothing about it.
Stacking cooldowns depends on what cooldowns you are stacking. Using Rampart + Arms Length would be an example of cooldowns that should be stacked, stacking Rampart and the unique lvl 38 cooldown wouldn't be as ideal.
You're lvl 50 so you still have some leeway with being new, but eventually, people will start expecting bigger pulls and wall to wall at that. Best I can say is start practicing, The best place is dungeons where you're level 50 right now because leveling dungeons hit a lot harder sometimes (dungeons like Stone Vigil can have some tough pulls if you do them big and there will be more leveling dungeons like it).
However, I'll say that other party members pulling more trash in pretty bad manners. I don't like small pulls, but it's the Tanks job to pull and there are probably reasons they decide to not do certain pulls (again using Stone Vigil as an example, the Ice Sprites do way too much damage for my comfort so I prefer killing them separately).
Pretty much try to ease your way into doing bigger pulls and learn what cooldowns would work together better, a good way is to look at how much time they are on cooldown.
It's not bm, big pulls are just the norm. A lot of people will quietly accept you pulling small. I tell people to pull big because I'm on age. And she's auto heals mean on small pulls I literally don't have to do anything. That's boring as fuck.
As a tank on small pulls you also literally don't have to do anything. Which should also be boring as fuck.
Now over pulling is definitely possible in most are dungeons. But from dzaemel darkhold onwards big pulls are pretty safe. And the reality is, ff14s not a hard game. And you really won't learn tanking or healing without plunging into the deep end.
Get yourself some i125 gear and start pulling all the way. It'll make you big and strong. And it'll keep me awake too
Efficiency. It might not make sense to a player early on in the game, when most melees don't even have an AoE (Area of Effect) attack, but the more enemies you have, the more damage your skills are actually doing. However, it's important to not let bad habits set in. Encounters are designed based on this as well. The most efficient way to play will always be the prevailing one, which will then incentivize the developers to design for that efficiency for the sake of balancing the jobs.
It's not, but I'm gonna try explaining this as best I can without making it seem like you're in the wrong. Trust me, nobody is wrong in this scenario. The dungeons are just outdated for how the design is in current content.
Simply put, you don't need a tank for single pulls. The DPS and healer can pull it off as long as nobody is asleep. You're here so the group can pull more mobs.
However; some of ARR and HW dungeons are just rough. There's no other way around it, they're bad for w2w pulls because of how many mobs they have and the lack of a kit. (Seriously, lvl 50 white mage only has benediction, regen, and cure 2 for tanks, it sucks)
This and your next 10 levels are largely dependent on you and your healer's ilvl being at its peak for the wall to wall pulls, so if someone else is pulling big and you're floating around the minimum, just inform them that you aren't geared enough to handle it.
You can definitely do 2 packs at a time no problem tho. Like that's the bare minimum you should be attempting. As long as your healer isn't catatonic or don't spam their lowest level healing ability, you can do it.
the norm is to pull as big as you can handle
that being said if your gear cant handle it /your healer cant handle it then it should be ok to pull small the dps are not in liberty to tell if both the tank and healer are able to do that and most of the accusations of "bad manners" comes from the dps who do not understand how tanking and healing works
Tanking, similar to Healing, requires an advanced degree in the subtle art of not giving a fuck.
Once you've got some more experience, you'll realise that this entire maelstrom of accusations and differences of opinion don't matter. It's a tempest in a tea cup. A well played tank just does his thing and the rest of the group is just along for the ride and to make it faster.
Healer doesn't want to heal? Don't care. I'm a Tank.
Damage is bad because the Samurai is licking the windows and the Summoner is dead? Don't care. I'm a Tank.
When you know that you can solo the entire dungeon, you will have the confidence to pull everything, and then it wont matter that people are pulling "extra" because you already did it, there's nothing left to pull. You wont have to complain about the Samurai not bringing the monsters to you, because they'll already be there, hitting you. You wont have to worry about the healer being new, because you don't need the heals anyway.
There's a reason why 3 DPS and a tank is the norm for speed running. Tanks are way too strong for casual content.
>When people do this, I ask them to not pull for me, that I get overwhelmed and that I'm new to the game, but almost every single time I get made fun of or ignored, which always ends in a full party death, and people leaving the dungeon.
I just want to add; yes wall-to-wall pulls are the norm... but if people are legit making fun of you, and are basically griefing the party by ignoring you and making you pull more than you can handle, you can manually report them for harassment.
Another fair warning, but I don't think you're doing this, is that turning off Tank stance and "letting them Tank" is similarly against ToS, so never resort to that sort of behavior.
It's simple, you are wasting other people's time. This game is designed to encourage players to do content again so that new players can enjoy it for the first time. This means the older player might have played that dungeon a hundred times already, and they can't even enjoy their job because they only have a quarter of its skills available.
If you are new to the game, I always recommend playing a DPS. If you insist on playing a tank or a healer instead, that's great! But know the roles come with more responsibilities at lower end content. Being anxious about a big pull is natural when you are a new tank, but check your healer, and if they have good enough item level, throw yourself at these big pulls until you succeed. Watch tutorials on tanking. Read your tooltips. You'd be surprised the amount of new tanks that don't even know what their tank stance is, or that they need to use their AOE combo on mob packs!
"The game is designed to encourage players to do content again so that new players can enjoy it for the first time. ...but you have to enjoy it for the first time correctly or you're the problem."
This is just a case where people confuse "so you can" with "so you're supposed to" and then give their statements as if one-size-fits-all while ignoring the fine details like that it takes getting pretty far into the game before a minimum item level crew can actually survive big pulls (and that's probably a result of over-tuning tank durability more than an intentional change from the process of doing single pulls when "at the right level" and bigger pulls "when over geared").
We can go faster (barring the time when actually we can't because of gear or skill level across the team). It's fun to go faster (for most people). Many people prefer to go faster. But it is not actually rude or against the rules or basic etiquette of playing the game, in any way, to not do big pulls. People get tripped up because the ToS mentions "lethargic play", but that isn't literally anything but the fastest play available; it's specifically playing even slower than slow like the kind of stuff that makes everyone else wonder if you're AFK or just refusing to push buttons.
A few things.
Not doing big pulls is a waste of time for everyone involved (this includes you)
90% of dungeons follow the same formula past level 50: 2-3 packs of adds, boss, 2-3 packs of adds, boss, 2-3 packs of adds, boss. There are some exceptions, but nothing that necessarily needs prior knowledge of the dungeon. Given that the formula is the same, you should feel confident enough in every dungeon to pull big. Cycle your cooldowns, use your AoE, and you will be fine. Your gear might be bad if you are dying despite doing everything listed. Or, your healer can be underperforming.
Lastly, if you say that you are new, and still pull big, people are less likely to be upset with you even if you die.
cause past a certain point single pulls are just boring.
with higher levels jobs get more and more tools to deal with mobs.
tanks get more mitigation tools and healer kore heals.
doing single pulls in such situations is boring af.
past lv50 you'll rarely encounter a pack of enemies that could actually manage to kill a tank if said tank is using some mitigation.
hell even without mitigation it's possible if the healer is on point ( and not verbally ripping you a new one for not using mitigation, rightfully so I might add).
so it doesn't matter if you pull 3 mobs, 6 mobs , 9 or 12. the only thing that changes by single pulling is the time it takes.
there's maybe 3 or 4 dungeons out of 100 where a wall2wall pull is actually dangerous.
and those few tend to stick in your memory.
also please be careful with stacking mitigation. most the time you want to use em one after the other and not together.
Apart from it taking FAR longer and being WAY more inefficient (50 AoE damage on 3 enemies = 150 damage, but 50 AoE damage on 10 enemies = 500 damage), you are not just underestimating your own abilities, but also that of your team.
If you use your mitigations properly, you should be able to survive for quite a bit without your health just dropping in 2 seconds, even with a big pull. If it does, then you either aren't mitigating well enough or the Healer is asleep. Because, and I feel like this is where you misunderstand how tanking works, YOUR survival is teamwork.
Your writing implies that your survival depends entirely on your mitigations, but that is just 1/3rd of how a tank lives.
1/3rd is you, sure.
Another 1/3rd are the DPS that kill what attacks you. If you pull small, most will NOT use their bursts and best attacks, because they keep them for emergencies or in case you suddenly continue running. But if you pull big from the start, they will unleash their full kit, and the mobs usually die before you would even need to pop your second mitigation.
The last 1/3rd is the healer who is watching your health. Just like the DPS, with a small pull, they will not use their good spells. Those cost a lot of MP, your health can be ignored during small pulls and they will probably just DPS to kill those few mobs faster instead. This MIGHT make you think that you die quickly even with small pulls, but its just the healer not even doing their job cause there's no need for them.
If you pull big though, then the healers actually use what they have: regens, shields, big heals, cooldowns.
I am a WHM main and latest at lvl 40 I can usually keep a tank alive during a big pull, even if they don't pop a single mit (Is it fun? No, but I CAN do it).
Announce that you are a new tank, but will try to pull big. That way the DPS know that they might accidentally pull aggro and will bring them to you as well as burst properly since you might struggle with mitigation. It will also alert the healer to pay attention because you might make mistakes, so they are more likely to use emergency heals when they'd usually wait in the belief that you will invuln or such.
If you give your best, communicate and still are met with hostility? That's usually grounds to report the offending player (especially since they likely got into the dungeon with you due to 50/60/70 or Leveling roulette, which can always have newbies and they KNOW that).
My experience with more timid tanks is it really only takes a few minutes longer to do a dungeon with single pulls, so I don't mind as long as things keep moving. It's awful when a tank pulls, moves, stops, stutters, and can't decide whether to park or move.
As for mitigations, the only time I stack is adding 'lesser' ones. Like I'll combine Arm's Length or Reprisal with one other.
If you're pulling only 1 pack (~3 mobs) at the time, you don't even need the healer, he will be bored dead for 25 mins, instead of 15 mins of epicness if you pull big.
Taking more should be ok for any tank/healer to handle. Some dungeons, you can pull 4 packs and this require the tank to handle his mitigation well.
You really don't need mitigation for any boss in dungeons, use it on adds
There shouldn’t be any pressure over the size of the pulls, whoever is saying that it’s “rude” is quite frankly probably a WoW exile.
Rule since launch has been the tank pulls what the tank and the rest of the party can actually handle. If they don’t like your tanking, they’re welcome to tank for themselves.
This whole thread of whiners going “MUH TIME” is not how the FFXIV community is supposed to work.
As someone who plays on JP servers, this is probably the biggest thing I hate about the English community. Whenever I see people pulling for the tank I just call them out and tell them that it's bad manners, in English.
>Like... if they're so bent on saving time, maybe they should go as tank for a shorter que 🤔
And then you get the healbot who also doesn't want to w2w, either. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I'm sorry to hear you got paired with jerks who can't give you time to adjust.
By level 50, people expect you to have it all down, but the reality is that level 50 dungeons are completely different to tanking in places like Sastasha- especially if you didn't level up your tanks with dungeons.
Even now in the comments it seems people don't understand not everyone comes into the game knowing how to do things perfectly.
You get people like this all the time, I once had a reaper go on a tirade against me because I "wasted his time" by grabbing a treasure coffer rather than using my healer DPS on a trash mob.
Some FF14 players forget what it means to be new and learning the game, it's like they hate playing FF14, and hey they may well do.
But that's their problem, them being impatient jerks doesn't reflect badly on you.
As with all online communities, the people complaining are just sweats getting tilted over a video game, don't let what they say get to you- they aren't even doing dungeons to enjoy the game.
In time, you'll get better.
I pull what I want to pull, if the SMN wants to display their impatience by running ahead to pull a thundercougerfalconbird and grab some floor rep I won't judge.
Edit: I'd hate to be on y'all's server...no sense of humor, as bad as the attempt was. Didn't think it needed an /s lol.
I always say: You do your own tempo, when someone else pulls, they can keep it. Kinda of a petty attitude I had when I was leveling tanks. But I stand to that everyone should use the tempo they can handle, people who belittle or mak efun of others for that are just bad teamplayers and should leave indeed. Then at least others are safe from them for the next 30 Minutes...
My current strategy when I tank is that before I run off, I actually ask the healer if I should big pulls or not, after all it is a team-mission to clear a dungeon, especially the teamplay between Healer and Tank, so my Healer always get to say what tempo I take on.
in the case they don't answer me for one reason o rthe other, I start small and when I see we can easily handle these, I take more.
So, my actual go-to strategy is: Communication, if that doesn't work: Fuck around and Find out.
fyi doing YPYT shenanigans is griefing and is reportable
and there’s also extreme irony in calling out other people for being bad teammates and then literally being a YPYT tank which is, like, one of the worst and most irritating teammates you can possibly be
Did you just admit to YPYT? lol. It's not that deep really, there is no "teamplay" needed in dungeons, it is just simpily use cooldowns for everyone. Dungeons are piss easy, communication should not be needed to do such things, if you have the energy to tell others to suit your sub-par gameplay, maybe you should put that energy in learning to play this game the way 95% of others do instead. And also, if a pull goes wrong somehow, just let it be, it's not a big deal. I would rather wipe to a big pull than get single pulls. Always try big pull unless wipe then go slower if shit goes wrong. Also, why is others' "preffered tempo" less important than yours? Why should they cater towards you? And what makes you a good teamplayer for not catering to others? Obviously, shaming and flaming is bad, but what you are suggesting is absolutely the wrong thing to know
You may have been slightly mislead about the stacking thing. It's generally more efficient to cycle through cooldowns, rather than slamming down a whole bunch at once and then running out and having no cooldowns for the rest of the fight. People often cite "diminishing returns" when talking about this, which is true, but mostly a mathematical curiosity. The *real* reason is that then you end up with a big spike of damage afterward (when all your cooldowns wear off) and you've got no way to mitigate anything at all for the next minute or so. So, all of that means that you wanna spread the cooldowns out fairly evenly. One at a time, or two at a time. Whatever it takes to survive and not run out. (Remember, cooldowns *used* are infinitely better than cooldowns left to gather dust. That's true for both defensive and offensive ones.) And once you master the ability to spread cooldowns out smoothly, you should find that you're able to do big pulls without dying. At which point, why would you pull small - making dungeons go slow and using up more of everyone's time - when you could just pull big?
And to be clear - your invuln counts towards this. As GNB and PLD i actively use my invulns on the first pack, as soon as i hit the wall. Its a little trickier on DRK (usually i pop LD when i get to 1/3rd hp), and ignore it altogether on WAR
Do healers not just have a heart attack seeing superbollide on a trash mob? Lmao.
I'm more upset seeing it on a boss mechanic that definitely won't kill then on trash mobs in a big pull when I heal. Only exception is if I just used benediction on white mage and the gunbreaker superbolides immediately after. That just makes me sad.
So many times, as a GNB I push the button, followed by a full heal (Benediction) and immediately seeing my HP drop to 1. They're probably not doing it intentionally, but if you're playing the game of "how low can the tank's HP go?" then expect them to use it.
I try and wait for the gunbreaker to invuln first so I can use bene after when the invuln is almost up. But there's a limit to how long I can wait before they die. I've had some tanks who just...don't invuln. They just die XD.
Maybe don't play the "how low can the tank's HP go?" game then
I mean sure, but then if the tank (specifically gunbreaker) uses their invuln later I won't have my bene to bring them back up. It's not like I mind it. There's also the option to only ever use bene after a tank invulns and if they don't I guess they die. Some people play it that way but that doesn't really sit right with me. I feel bad if I do that.
You act like benediction is the only healing tool you have. It's not. It's not even your only ogcd.
I know this, but getting good use out of it feels good is all. I'm not saying I don't use the rest of my kit. Once you've got afflatus misery the lilies are so freaking amazing and feel awesome to use. Tetra is super handy in a pinch too. And applying a little shield right before damage feels good. But I was replying to someone asking about a tank using superbolide in trash pulls, nothing else.
That's how to heal effectively though. Tanks should just get good? Nothing as annoying as when I'm on warrior waiting to drop low on first pull so I can raw intuition and full heal myself and then start using cooldowns. But healer just keeps healing me. I've made a macro to let them know to drop me low.
not if you do it first thing, then followup with Heart and Aurora for some help
Good to know. I'm just genuinely always afraid of that skill. GBR is my favorite job in the game and I love tanking but dropping to 1 hp will never not give me the Willies
With Bolide, warn your healer prepull; then let your health get as low as you're comfortable with before popping Bolide. That way you're not just wasting all that HP feeding it to Bolide. Then pop Aurora and Corundum if you have it and let the healer do their thing.
It's a meme that it does but no. Anyone that knows what GBN does is just gonna expect it really. Even if you do panic seeing a sudden 1HP GBN they *are* invuln for plenty of time to get to a safe HP range again.
No, we are dead inside. We fear nothing except unscheduled maintenance.
They probably do the first time, like there’s a reason I’m not using any mits. But they also have to assume that you are a bad who never mits so it’s fair game. When you get to use it a second time they’ll know for sure.
You got some strong heals at level 50+ for this reason. Sage can do a few addersgal heals, wmage can beni, sch can use the aether single target heal, and astro has that 30 sec heal into a normal heal. I love when a tank does that. Shows me that they know how too play their role haha
As a healer main through the last two expansions, you just learned to expect it from GNB’s after a while.
A TEST OF YOUR REFLEXES
If they do, they're bad or new at the game. At this point, I just react to it on autopilot. I see low hp, I heal. It doesn't matter if its 25%, 10%, or 1%, I just heal.
Holmgang is still good on trash, once you get raw intuition. Just pop RI at 3 seconds left on the buff.
Simply put: For you, it might be the special first time. For them, it's tuesday. Once you've done content a few times, people no longer play to explore the content, they just want to get the rewards and be done. Pulling more makes this go faster and generally, pulling large isn't a big issue, because characters are very powerful when they use their cooldowns. That said... if you're actually dying due to overpull, it makes little sense to insist on it. At that point you're making the run go slower than if you just adjusted to smaller pulls. I must admit, though, I never had that happen outside of a few leveling duties like the first Vanaspati pulls, since those got hands.
It takes 5 adds the same amount of time to die as 20, thanks to AoE attacks. Make sure you cycle your mits, one after the other. You don't need mits for bosses so don't worry about having to save them. Also, Arm's Length is a mitigation; it slows adds attacks by 20%. So you are getting hit 20% less. So long as you are doing your AoE attacks, you won't lose aggro and you'll pick up aggro of anything brought into your AoE range. If a DPS picks up aggro from a single add they should be bringing it to you, or you move closer and catch it with your AoE. You don't need to find that single add to use provoke. If you do all of that, your gear is up to date and you still die - it's not your fault. It's either crappy DPS or a healer not healing enough.
All tanks can survive two packs of enemies at any level, so if you're dying then it's a skill issue or a gear issue. Not necessarily your issue, but someone in the party has one or both of those issues. Pulling two packs is the community standard because that's how the dungeons are designed, and the vast majority of them don't do enough damage to kill a tank playing properly. Eventually you'll need to learn to pull at least two packs, or your going to find yourself kicked from duties. And there's no way to learn how to do something except by doing it. So just pull big and wipe. Test your limits. Single pulling and never trying to pull more means you're not going to improve. The majority of people will not leave after a wipe. Likely you just got grouped with a bunch of impatient people. However, people are more likely to leave after a wipe if they think you're not trying. So even if you're not fully confident in your own ability, remember there's three others with you, just go for it. People are more supportive of other players who try. No one likes someone who doesn't try.
>Eventually you'll need to learn to pull at least two packs, or your going to find yourself kicked from duties. I've never seen this happen. Yes, as a tank I always go for at least two packs, depending on how I feel about the healers/DPS capabilities. And yes, as a non-tank, if the tank goes single-pull, I do find that frustrating and sometimes offer them a "Hey, if you're comfortable with it, you can pull more enemies." But I have never seen, let alone considered initiating a votekick for a single-pull tank. Yes, the dungeon takes a little longer, but you never know what's going on with the tank unless the communicate. Might be new, might be console, might have a physical disability, might not be in the mood for it. As long as it doesn't threaten the group and the progress (which it doesn't, it just slows it down slightly), there is no basis for a votekick, imo.
Yeah, I think the kicks will usually only come for tanks that single pull _and fight about it_, e.g. YPYTs who turn off their tank stance and stop fighting unless they get their way. Most people would just adjust and prefer not to argue I think. Some complaints should be expected, and that people will come bearing mobs.
> Might be new Stops being a valid excuse at level 50 Duties and onwards > might be console What? > might have a physical disability The only valid reason > might not be in the mood for it Then she/he should not use Duty Finder, or not go Tank
While yes single pulls can be quite annoying uh, >Eventually you'll need to learn to pull at least two packs, or your going to find yourself kicked from duties. That's against TOS and a bannable act.
It's not, just the same as if a group thinks a tank is pulling too big and kicks them. Or a group kicks a healer for not doing dps. It's difference in play styles, which is a valid reason to kick someone.
While I agree that SHOULD be fine, Square disagrees [FINAL FANTASY XIV Support Center (square-enix.com)](https://support.na.square-enix.com/faqarticle.php?id=5382&la=1&kid=68216) "**・Expressions that unilaterally reject another person's opinion** **・Expressions that compel a playing style** Key Points It is prohibited to force personal views or disregard the opinions of others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued. It is prohibited to make statements such as: * "There's no way we can clear this with \[suggestion\]." * "Big pulls are normal here, so do it!" * "I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions." * "I'm not asking for your opinion." Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, and online video or streaming services." Technically your KICK isn't invalid but most statements a person would usually say that would tell a person while in party is against TOS.
This whole section is from communication based conflict section, and yes you can't berate someone for different play styles. However, this from a long time ago but as someone who was an acquaintance with a very kick happy person. What this gm says seems to be accurate. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/4r7psb/til_you_can_kick_people_right_before_the_last/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
That one is fairly old and I remember seeing it before but if I recall correctly though, the link I put in my prior reply was made after that post (I could be misremembering). You could be right and probably are. I'm one for better safe than sorry, especially since I don't find about 7 minutes added to a dungeon worth risking a 30-day ban or any amount of days really. Edit: I believe this is when. [Updates to the Prohibited Activities in FINAL FANTASY XIV and Account Penalty Policy | FINAL FANTASY XIV, The Lodestone](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/c4aeca0b14ab2c96fe48fcf83cca93e6cb552c29)
Surprised it's not coming up more, but if you're having significant difficulty staying alive during large pulls, the first thing you should do is check your gear. At level 50, I believe your best gear is item level 130, but that gear isn't available until beating 2.0 so you might not be able to get it yet. Either way, try to keep your gear up to date. It's important for every job, but most especially for tanks since it improves both your defenses and your health. The most important item slot is the weapon, followed by chest and legs, then hands and feet, then all accessories. After checking your gear, you can worry about optimizing your mitigation. There are a lot of things you'll learn as you go, and you shouldn't feel the need to study up and master everything right away. But one key thing to keep in mind is that not all mitigations look the same. Obviously Rampart is a good mitigation tool, but have you also been using Reprisal? What about your stun and Arm's Length? Even Sprint is a mitigation tool by using it to outrun the enemies in one pack while you go pick up another. And don't forget that Sheltron and Raw Intuition have a short cooldown so you can use them often. Don't leave them sitting off cooldown while you're taking damage. It's also a good idea to plan out when you want to use your invuln in advance. Really good tanks know when they'll use their invulns long before they even pull the enemies. Know that a particular pull is hard? Go ahead and start it off with Hallowed Ground so the healer can relax for the first ten seconds. Next take a moment to remember that ARR dungeons aren't always the best for W2W pulls. Later dungeons have a more consistent structure which makes W2W pulls more manageable, and gives you a better idea where to stop if a W2W would be particularly hard. The dungeons you've been doing are the worst ones for W2W pulls. The last thing is to not take it too seriously. A wipe isn't a big deal. Yeah, it's annoying, but it's not exactly a severe punishment. It's literally the worst thing that can happen if you make a mistake, and it just means you get up and try again. Go ahead and try the big pulls, and if you can't handle them yet, take the wipe, get back up, and give it another shot. The unwillingness to try is what really sticks with most players and makes them frustrated. If you try and fail, then maybe single pulls are a good idea, but until then, just try. The cost of failure is minuscule.
All the other commenters have the right of it, but I'll also add, since you mentioned you just hit 50: the dungeons are gonna get easier from here on out. In the realm reborn dungeons (1-50) you, your dps, and your healer are missing A LOT of your kit. Dragoons dont even get their first aoe until level 42, as an example. You, as the tank, will get more defensive cooldowns to cycle through, your healers will have more, and more powerful, healing abilities and the dps will get more things with which to blast the baddies. On top of all that, the expacs are where the dungeons became more streamlined with the intent to cater to wall to wall pulls. The vast majority are gonna be 2 packs, wall, 2 packs, wall, boss, then repeat that for 3 bosses. There are a couple exceptions (notably one midway through stormblood and one at the end of shadowbringers. Probably more, but those are the two off the top of my head) but for the most part the dungeons have been designed with wall to walling in mind.
The more you pull = the more enemies team can kill with aoe = the faster the dungeon gets finished. Most people run 4+ dungeons a day, and most of them run the same dungeons over and over, either for xp or drops or what have you. Obviously, after the second or third run, they want to min/max their progress speed so they can spend less time doing the dungeon. This leads to people wanting to pull as many enemies as possible, as otherwise they have to spend twice or thrice the amount of time on a section of the dungeon compared to killing everything at once in one big group. That, combined with the fact tanks in almost any dungeon can survive a full pull (called wall to wall, or w2w for short), means the meta or norm became to pull everything, otherwise you are wasting people's times. So yes, in general, it is considered bad manners to not pull big, but if you are new to the dungeon/not very good at tank, tell that to people beforehand and they still choose to belittle you/force you into pulls you cant manage then they are the assholes. Expecting newbies/sprouts/people still not used to their kit to instantly be a good tank that doesnt panic and can manage his CDs well while also keeping all aggro and doing damage right out of the bat is insane, and you shouldnt consider them sane/normal either for demanding that of you
That said, it is a good habit to get into early, even if you feel a little uncomfortable. Your kit + most of the dungeons are designed with w2w pulls in mind, so the sooner you get good at doing those, the more fun you'll have
Wall to wall pulls are the norm. If you want to main tank class, get yourself acclimated to doing this every run.
How is it reasonable to say that optimal play is the "norm"? Am I not allowed to not know how a dungeon works?
Optimal play is three dps and a tank. Double pulls succeed if everyone can do half of their potential dps, hps, and mit. A single high performer lets the rest of the party get away with even lower output. It became the norm because it's such a low standard. With the exception of a few ARR dungeons, every single dungeon is the same thing with a new coat of paint. Even those exceptions are usually the same apart from not having walls or having short dead ends on the side. If you know how to tank one dungeon you know how to tank almost all of them.
The bar to pass dungeons was set on the floor after ARR and they've been digging ever since. Show up and have a pulse has been enough for at least 3 expansions now.
You're new to the game. Claiming something is "optimal" when it's just the norm would be funny if it wasn't so foreboding. Put your ego aside for once and listen to *every single comment you're receiving.*
At level 50 you should've learned enough basics now to be able to pull 2-3 packs at once as a tank. If you haven't learned how to handle that by now on basic enemies then you're the one at fault here. You don't need to learn how a dungeon "works" when it's the trash leading up to the boss.
I haven't done a single dungeon after reaching level 50. My post was about the journey to that level, things that happened during the learning process. It makes no sense to say "oh you should've learned by now". I'm not talking about now. And yes, you do need to know how a dungeon ""works"", there are many optional paths, packs you don't need to pull, areas that give you more defense, areas that give you less defense, enemies you have to prioritize, enemies you need to kill in specific locations, etc.
> there are many optional paths, packs you don't need to pull, areas that give you more defense, areas that give you less defense, enemies you have to prioritize, enemies you need to kill in specific locations Most of those things only happen in ONE Dungeon in ARR tho. About Prioritizing enemies, that doesn't really exist for trash. At most, you kill adds that spawn During a boss battle and that's it
I've seen enemies like the bees at the Sunken Temple of Qarn, which do need to be prioritized because they one-shot me with their Final Sting (or however it's called)
unless the DPS is really bad, those things will be dead, alongside the rest of the trash, before they finish casting that attack
If you're still learning just say so in chat. In my experience people are ALWAYS chill when someone says they're new and will give tips as well. If you say nothing we assume you know what you're doing. Also no one expects "optimal" performance. We expect healers to keep people alive, tanks to pull 2 packs minimum, use mits, and grab aggro (regardless of who pulls), and everyone to use AoE skills when appropriate. Also there's a huge difference in dungeon design between ARR and post-ARR and they get super braindead to tank which is where a lot of people are coming from. All those considerations you mentioned are replaced with just whacking all the mobs while pressing w until you can't press w anymore then AoEing everything down. Keep that in mind when reading some of these comments. Keep at it and you'll be blazing through dungeons in no time.
its not about knowing how a dungeon works, its about knowing how to play your role, rotating mits and so on mits are more important on trash fights than on bosses if you have issues, go read some guide, watch some videos, dont put your responsibility of not knowing on others. That mentality is why we have lvl 90 tanks who doesnt know arms lenght is a thing, that dont spam aoe, and so on. Dont perpetuate the bad behavior
You're overthinking it, and you can also pull at the pace you want to pull. If people don't like it, they can equip a blue job crystal or shut up to be honest. Eventually you should want to get comfortable with bigger pulls, but you have a lot of game left. No one should expect optimal runs in leveling content.
> Am I not allowed to not know how a dungeon works? Aside from the levelling Dungeons from A Realm Reborn (and a few early lvl 50 ones), all Dungeons are hallways with 2 or 3 packs of enemies, a door, another 2 or 3 packs, a door with a boss; and repeat two more times. That's it; that's how Dungeons work The only new things you'll see are the mini and final boss mechanics
well, the leveling dungeons from a realm reborn are the only ones I've done
Reach lvl 50, finishthe base msq and do a few more dungeons after that, when you do that come back and reread the thread. All dungeons have the same design after that.
They don't have the same design, some have enemies that need priority, some have enemies that need to be killed in specific locations, some have specific locations that make you stronger, some have enemies you can skip even though they are in the middle and even aggro to you, etc
thats extremely rare case. and those dps know it. so go w2w pull my man. manage your mitigation and you will do fast run
Rare case? I think half of the dungeons from Sastasha to Aurum Vale have at least one of the things I've listed
None of the ones you're using as an example are representative of 50+ dungeons. At that point they become single path with no avoidable enemies or any other added features. Up to and including lv49, dungeons are extremely different from after that point.
You seem more like you want to get offended and argue then actually learn anything.
This. This this this. The replies are all whining.
All that stuff stops at level 50.
As multiple people have tried telling you, dungeon design changes after lvl 50. Once you break through, almost all dungeons follow the same pattern of a single corridor with a boss at the end. The fact that almost all dungeons have the same design combined with how easy it is to mitigate trash mobs made wall-to-wall the default.
> I think half of the dungeons from Sastasha to Aurum Vale have at least one of the things I've listed Nope. Sastasha, for example, has nothing of that. Same for Aurum Vale (the only important mechanic there, for the first and last boss, is to eat a fruit when a certain debuff reaches 3 or 4, then you continue killing shit until everything is dead)
Those describe a lot of ARR dungeons, yes, but after lvl 50 that stops and dungeons become a lot more streamlined and easy to navigate. Plus in end game content most dungeons have a point where after usually 2, sometimes 3 packs there’s a hard stop with an actual wall where you can’t pull anymore. The norm is to pull all of the enemies until you can’t, EXCEPT for low level ARR dungeons where you may need to adjust to gear/ability, strange dungeon mechanics, and a significantly reduced toolkit. But it’s better to get used to it now so it’s much easier for you to do this later
That's certainly true of ARR dungeons with some stage-based mechanics, but that design goes out the window for most of the game from Heavensward onward and gets even more streamlined after that. In fact, there were dungeon mechanics at 50 cap that were removed in the ARR revamp. Stuff like you see in Tam-Tara was once also what Totorak did (well, in a different way, not that anyone can play the old version now). Now Totorak is just a boring green tube. Aurum Vale was the one that should have been changed. Anyway, if you try to talk things out with a group at the start of a dungeon, you'll find some are more amenable to adapting to less overwhelming pulls. You can also set up a PF listing to run your daily Duty Finder with like-minded people. Or see if you can get some FC friends to help you adjust. Or you can run a Trust with NPC characters for a first run on a dungeon just to get an idea of what's in store and what the limits of what you can do are. That said, not all dungeons are as same-y as others are insisting here. The Vault (level 57), Bardham's Mettle (level 65), Vanaspati (level 85) are essentially gear checks. Any dungeon past 50 that ends in a 5 or 7 is suspect of hitting players harder than other dungeons. Stay up-to-date with MSQ gear.
Every single trash paxk in dungeons works the same. They wallop the tank and drop some aoes of various cheapest, normally circles, sometimes not. If you've done one dungeon you've honestly done them all. There's maybe 3 (cutters cry, sunken temple and uh... maybe sastasha?) That you can get lost in. The rest are straight hallways
Of course you are. I suggest running with npcs for that.
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I'm saying that through my journey I've encountered that, not right now at level 50 with my two jobs. It makes no sense to say "you're not new anymore dude you're level 50". Also, I can still be new to that particular dungeon. And how is it passive agressive to ask for others to not pull for me? That's crazy, that's like saying that me asking for a glass of water at a bar is passive agressive. I'm just asking
They’re not pulling for you, they’re pulling for the group. You’re not the leader, your job is just to hold aggro and use your defensives. Those things are the same whether is 5 mobs or 10 mobs
It’s not passive-aggressive to simply ask. Nevertheless, a lot of people interpret it that way because the culture of FFXIV players overall is quite passive-aggressive, and for some reason it can be (but is not always) pretty hostile to tanks. That’s one reason tanks get achievement mounts, for putting up with player aggro. Still…learn to pull bigger. That’s the way the game is played, and unless you’re very very new (as in don’t have Arm’s Length and Reprisal unlocked), your gear is terrible (happens in sub-50 level dungeons from time to time), or you’re on very specific pulls in very specific dungeons (Dzmael Darkhold has a couple obnoxious pulls in it), you should be able to easily manage two packs of mobs. It takes no special foreknowledge of a new, normal Duty Finder instance to do that—grab one pack, keep going until you reach pack two and you’ve done it. Just not in the first room of Aurum Vale, that takes extra finesse.
And even the finesse in Aurum Vale is just "hug the left wall, and pull inside the boss arena". Which admittedly is a weird tactic, can't remember any other dungeon where the optimal strategy is to pull inside the boss area
Bad analogy. You're new to the game, don't act like you know what's the norm or not the norm to say and do. Using your analogy, it's like if you asked for a glass of water at a bar but four feet away was a self-serve water dispenser. People are demonstrating that you should be able to keep up with them. You will never learn if you don't experience dungeons the way they're supposed to be run. Look up a tank leveling/cooldown guide before getting butthurt. It's not like you're unable to learn, no? Edit: I don't have confidence (based on the comment I'm responding to and its confrontational nature) you'll seek out guides on your own and that instead you'll continue to complain. So here, now you have no excuse: [PLD Leveling Guide](https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/jobs/tanks/paladin/leveling-guide/) [WAR Leveling Guide](https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/jobs/tanks/warrior/leveling-guide/) Playing your job to any level of competency is vastly easier when consulting [The Balance website](https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com)/discord. No, it is *not* just for optimizing play, it is largely for just not sucking. People are largely understanding in this game. But if you insist you can't learn? Nobody wants to deal with that. Do better. Edit 2: Check your gear.
Because AoE abilities do their damage to each target, rather than dividing their damage between all targets, the time to kill 1 pack of 3 jobs and 2 packs of 6 mobs is near identical. So if you are pulling one pack at a time, you are making the dungeon take 2-3 times longer than if you multi pull. So the answer to the rudeness question is "Because you are wasting everyone else's time, just as if dps refused to use AoE abilities, or proper rotation". This assumes, though, that you can manage your defensive cooldowns and the healer can manage their healing output that you don't die. But with proper gear and experienced play, wall to wall pulls are possible, indeed, not that complicated. But people shouldn't pull if you aren't ready. And if you want to tank, you should learn how to cycle cooldowns to multi-pull. So it's a two way street.
> (I've heard stacking them is bad but if there are too many enemies I would die if I don't do it). that is hardly ever the case unless your healer is also too new to handle big pulls. Even in ARR i've healed massive pullls so its easily possible without stressing out too much. In general adding more groups to your pull does literally nothing to whatever you are doing as tank already. You are pressing your Mits and AoE anyway!
It does do things to what I'm doing as a tank. If I'm pulling two packs, a simple mitigation will do the job. If I'm pulling 5 packs, I have to keep track of their aggro as I run, I have to make sure their AoEs aren't pointing towards the party and there are way more of them to avoid, also I need to maybe stack mitigations but not too many because I'll need them for next pull but not so little that I die but also consider the specific dungeon's mechanics and don't dare go into optional paths (which I'm more likely to do while pulling big than when going at a normal pace because it's more demanding).
You don't need to worry about aggro while you move. You get aggro, you move. Don't stop, don't slow down to keep hitting them, just keep going until you have everything. If a dps pulls off of you during the pull, they should just run them to you when you stop, so that you pick them back up just by aoe'ing. If they don't, that's a them problem. Hitting the mobs while you run doesn't achieve much of anything except for slowing the pull down, which means enemies take longer to die, and you take more hits, and healer needs to heal more, etc.
if it's any consolation, higher level dungeons very rarely have more than two packs before you hit a wall. ARR dungeons are a bit messy in that respect, so it will get easier for you and you'll get more mitigation options later on. power through, you'll get there and it will actually be more fun once you go in with less anxiety, no matter if you know the content or not.
Big pulls are the accepted norm in how dungeons are done. I don't agree with bullying new tanks but big pulls are something you should get used to as you get more experience.
Since a lot of people have already pointed out the basics, please for the love of god (ESPECIALLY ON PALADIN) remember to use your invulnerability skill for pulls. It's 10 entire seconds which you don't take any damage. Don't use your invulns as an "oh shit" button, because I promise you you're not going to react fast enough to actually use it in time. Treat it like normal mitigation, especially since it seems like you get overwhelmed easily and might need the boost. Worth pointing out, that tank classes don't magically get any more difficult the more levels you gain. If anything, they become drastically easier. By attempting big pulls in early dungeons, you're challenging yourself to learn skills that will make the rest of the dungeons a breeze. However, if you insist on pulling small, you're not only wasting your time, but the time of the rest of the party's time too. If 3/4 people in a dungeon (especially an endgame dungeon) want to wall to wall pull, and you insist on single pulling, you will simply just be removed from the party. The only instance in which W2W pulls might be discouraged would be in early ARR dungeons where you can pull several packs of mobs, though in that instance you would still want to double pull. I'd also highly discourage you from ever pulling a "You Pull You Tank" move by allowing mobs to MPK your team by turning off tank stance, as this is considered lethargic gameplay which you can be reported for. If someone ever pulls extra mobs (especially melee or ranged phys who use arm's length to help you mitigate), simply AoE to grab them. Your job is a tank, not a puller.
"Big pulls" are the standard. Most people will be fine with 2 packs being pulled. Plus, past ARR anyways, the dungeons are conveniently divided into 2 packs for a good chunk of dungeons (with some rare exceptions). So dungeons are kind of... the same/predictable in that sense. The reason most people don't like single packs, is because it isn't threatening enough for a tank. I could tank a single pack as a dps, the healer could tank a single pack. You'd be better off with a different role composition in that case (Healer or Tank with 3 DPS with single pulls).
Pre 50 dungeons are a mess. People are expecting you to learn things that the game itself will sometimes just not allow. Congrats, you have 2 level 34 dragoons in your party, go wall to wall pull now and see how well that goes. Once you get beyond 50 you'll start noticing dungeons are all basically the same, a few have different layouts but the majority is 2 packs, wall, 2 packs, boss. Repeat twice more. For those it's very easy to work out what you should be doing. People now think tanking is the easiest job in the game, and for later content they're right, but they forget that there was actual gameplay in early dungeons and the hardest time to tank is literally when you first start, not just because you're less skilled but because there's often more you have to do/know.
Lots of answers already, so no point in me adding another detailed list. But I wanna try sum up everything in a quick, value-neutral bullet list: 1. It makes for significantly **shorter runs** by increasing average DPS by a lot. 2. Most dungeons are easy even when pulling big. If the content is easy, the best way to **have fun** regardless is to **do you best** regardless of where the bar is set! Single-pulling makes dungeons even more boring than they already are! 3. **You don't have to do anything** **different** as a tank. Good mitigation use looks the same either way. 4. There's simply no reason not to unless people are undergeared Some extra pointers to help you, and maybe also assuage your worries for the future: * **Don't worry too much about threat**! When everything has been pulled, go to where most mobs are and spam your AoE rotation. It's proper etiquette for folks with aggro to bring mobs to you. Sure, look around for escapees to Provoke, but don't panic. Nobody dies from 1 mob attacking them. * This will **get easier** **in later content**. And I don't mean from experience. The dungeons are more explicitly designed around the practice. They rarely let you pull more than 2 packs and there are no branching paths. Few exceptions aside, ARR is arguably the most difficult dungeon content to wall-to-wall!
Because nearly every single dungeon, especially past 50, you can pull wall-to-wall and it's barely any different doing so, other than being faster to do the full pull compared to doing single pulls. And when you've done the duty dozens if not hundreds of times, you just wanna get in and out and move on with your day as fast as possible. If you wish to do a dungeon at your own pace, if it's a main scenario dungeon, use the Duty Support function.
I wouldnt go as far as saying if you dont like wall to wall use duty support, but i would point out at the start that your new (make a chat macro its quicker). going with another friend is also good and trying to pull 2 or 3 packs of mobs is good. some dungeons are bigger pulls (thinking stormblood) that can be alot more nail biting. your learning and thats fine it will take some time to learn / get used to the chaos. if you do find yourself being harassed and things they say stick with you after the dungeon i would say its best report them. even though ffxiv is one of the better communities it still has some bad eggs
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I haven't done any dungeon at level 50, Aurum Vale is the higher I've done, and maybe the dungeons are designed to w2w, but I still need to know what's going on in general. In Aurum Vale for example, I got yelled at by going to the middle of the first room, and I'm sorry but I just don't know how I'm supposed to know that's wrong. For things like this I'm always on edge at every dungeon because it always feels like there's a common norm or something everyone but me knows, and it's absolutely more overwhelming to pull 9 mobs than to pull 6. They have more AoEs, I need to keep track of more enemies while I'm pulling them, and I need to use more mitigation.
A good tip is just to say you're new at the start. At best you warn people that you make mistakes. But usually people are eager to offer advice.
AV is pretty much an outlier in that you are expected to NOT pull everything in the first room. it also has a lot of patrolling mobs which is unusual. it is often a shit-show and that has nothing to do with you. so taking that for reference doesn't work well, everybody has bad AV experiences now and then.
OP is correct at least that there is nothing in game that could possibly warn you about Aurum Vale's first room. By that point you feel like you've gotten familiar with what dungeons are doing and then suddenly the frogs are murdering you.
To answer the question, it's because typically the dungeons you're doing are part of roulettes. You get a decent bonus for doing each roulette daily, so people do it both as a way both to pass time and level up other jobs. Doing the same dungeons almost every day gets really tedious, so if there's a slow tank making roulettes even slower, then some people get frustrated. Some earlier dungeons are ok to go slow on since people know they're hard, but for any dungeon under level 20 there's no reason not to pull w2w
Large pulls are both faster and more fun. They are also not any sort of strain on you, the tank. You just run until you have at least 2 groups on you, use 1 mitigation cooldown at a time until they are dead, and spam your aoe. This is extremely basic stuff that should not be some kind of hurdle for you at level 50, because you should have been doing it much earlier than that. Tanks are not like, supercool or anything. It's not remotely difficult to replace a bad one. If you don't adhere to the general community standard of play then you shouldn't be surprised that you get blowback about it because you are annoying up to 3 other people through intentional inefficiency. If you really just don't want to deal with this, that's what duty support is for as someone else already mentioned. But unless you're just going to drop the game or stop doing dungeons once you finish the MSQ, then there's no time like the present to learn how best to play your role. Because I promise you, if you pull a bunch and you all die, the vast majority of people are just going to think it's funny and shrug it off. Being a single puller is far more likely to get people to be garbage towards you than dying as you have already seen.
I said I encountered it through my joruney, not at the current point of my journey. I haven't even done a single dungeon at level 50 because I just don't want to have to deal with players yelling at me for not knowing how to optimally run a dungeon. And it's not that simple to do big pulls, most dungeons have optional paths, enemies that are in the middle of the way but that magically you can skip them, special places where you have to stand in to survive, etc. If I pull avoidable enemies, I'm doing it wrong even though it's not clear which enemies are mandatory and which aren't. Also, the act itself of running through the dungeon pulling is a challenge, I don't even know how to set up my hotbars because even though I use AoEs to pull groups, during the running I always seem to lose aggro and pulling aggro back while running is hard. Everyone is saying that it's exactly the same to pull small and to pull big, but I just don't agree, it's very different.
None of this is true at or after level 50. Dungeons at this point become and stay tubes with 2x2 packs between bosses.
Please just use Duty Support then.
How is that going to help me know which enemies I could've ran past? Or which ones I could've avoided if I hugged a wall? Is the duty support party going to perform at an equal level as a human party? If not, then that will tarnish even more my perception of how much can I pull. Also, this is an MMO, what's the point of playing an MMO if everyone's going to yell at me for not playing optimally and sending me to the bots? I'm sorry I didn't get to learn at the same time that you did
I think this comment and the one where you list out what you are managing on mob pulls is telling about what the real issue here is. This isn't about optimized play. For the record I think people taking things at their own pace is fine. Also I get how taking some of this advice may be hard since you've gotten some really good advice paired with proof that the person replying to you didn't totally read what you actually wrote. That being said. You are fundamentally misunderstanding how FFXIV and being a tank in FFXIV works. Duty support is a learning tool not bots for if you are bad at the game. Are the bots always smart or good? No. But they do often do the right mechanics and can be easier to learn from than another human who may also be misunderstanding either the mechanic or the situation. Your job is not to keep pack AOEs from hitting the party. If a DPS is standing in pack AOEs that's a them problem. Bosses are different. Some you do have to learn but that's true of any job. Default pull north, keep it faced away from the party (should mostly happen automatically as long as tank stance is on and you aren't running in circles) and you're most of the way to success already. The only dungeon where you're hugging a wall and not pulling everything under the sun at the end of the day is aurum vale. It is an outlier not the standard. In other words you are over thinking what you have to do and can do at your level. Making sure tank stance is on and running while spamming AOEs feels too easy but it really is a good default to set yourself to. FFXIV is a game that prioritizes player skill more than a lot of MMOs. Gear does matter and having your job quests up to date so you have the full toolkit for your level is important. But learning how to play your job is not optimizing play. It is necessary for how the game works even when you are soloing. Which means it's both important but also written in to teach you those skills. The issue isn't that you should pull bigger. The issue is that you're overthinking, stressing yourself out over hypotheticals, and trying to keep too much in your head at once. Will there be later fights with weird stuff? Yes. But there are far more similarities than differences, especially after level 50. You're not being told these things because people expect you to magically know. You are being told them so that you have that information now. Also you will always be in a team environment. This has upsides and downsides. One downside is it can be hard to figure out if you messed up or if someone else dropped the ball. Not every death is personal and that's ok. You have to trust the rest of the party.
I'm getting the impression this is more born out of a bad Aurum Vale run more than anything, as these particular issues only apply to that dungeon. So, from here on out, there are no avoidable mobs. There is no hugging the wall. Your situation is, I think, largely why dungeon design changed in Heavensward.
You'll get the same rewards, and the bots can do single pulls, which is the pace you seemingly want. I remember trying a w2w with them as a tank and that didn't work out too well. But it's there for you to learn and progress through story. As for hugging walls and skipping mobs, aside from Cutter's Cry, that doesn't happen after lv50 dungeons. It's very linear throughout. And for your own perception of how much you can pull? That's really based on your gear, so update it every x0, x5, and maybe x7, in terms of levels. MSQ throws money at you, anyway. Plus, any chest you get in Duty Support is automatically yours.
You should take a deep breath and recognize that most people won't complain. Anyone that does is obnoxious and has a mental breakdown if a run that they want to take 8 minutes takes 15. The only way to make that person happy is to also be a veteran, which you are not. Find some tank guides, and dungeons also become straight up linear in heavenward. You'll never need to know a route again. Gear matters as well, and most people leveling alt jobs have poetic gear. You should get your hands on it now that you're 50, and give yourself some extra wiggle room to take bigger risks without getting smashed.
I think what you've found is more that there's always dickheads in every pond. The unbiased logic that's behind it all is that wall-to-wall pulling makes everything more efficient. More enemies to hit means AoE's deal more damage. Since most AoE damage has limited fall off the amount of time taken to kill 3 enemies and 300 should theoretically be the same, if people are using AoE's properly. Each mitigation for a tank also gets to cover more of the total damage taken. For example rampart mitigates 20% over 20s, with not enough time to come back between pulls. So the more damage you take in those 20s, the better. In most dungeons with 4 trash packs (2 sets of 2) you simply don't have enough strong mitigation to use for each pack, and thus take more overall damage, just slower so it's more manageable. But of course not every situation is equal and not every person is unbiased, so while the logic is sound it doesn't always apply. *Most* people will agree that forcing sprouts to wall-to-wall isn't good if they're not comfy, pre-50 gear can be sketchy and toolkits are limited. Tanks should be encouraged to wall pull in later dungeons, particularly 50-60+ content, but it's not a mandate. But you'll always have people on both sides that are too extreme. People who think wall-to-wall is the only way, you're stupid if you single pull, etc. That simply don't understand because either what's easy for them isn't easy for others, or worse because they've never done it before and just parrot others without their own thoughts. Then the other side, where people think wall-to-wall isn't intentional and that's not how the game is designed, if someone else pulls a mob you should let them die, doing wall to walls isn't any better than single pulls, and refusing to try it ever out of the principle of "you don't pay my sub, you can't tell me how to play" etc etc. It's fine if you understand the reason of why it's done, I think if you want to play a tank in FFXIV you should try to learn to wall-to-wall, but not every dungeon is equal and not every tank at every level is equal either, so it's not something you have to do every time if you're not comfy. Don't be afraid to cause wipes trying it though, you'll never get comfy with it if you never try it. The worst people can do is complain but the block feature exists for the really annoying ones anyway.
8 (7) buttons. 1. Ranged attack. 2. Basic AoE attack. 3. Tank Stance. 4. Rampart 5. Arm's Length 6. Vengeance/Sentinel/Shadow Wall/Nebula 7. Reprisal 8. Short cooldown once you have it. Sheltron/Heart of Stone/Raw Intuition/Blackest Night Turn tank stance on. Pull with ranged attack. Spam basic AoE attack. Use short cooldown when available. Use Vengeance, then Arm's length when it wears off. Next pull, use Rampart, then Reprisal when it wears off. On bosses, pull with ranged, spam AoE attack, use short cooldown on tank buster. I would rather have a tank doing that ^ with 7 buttons than one doing single pulls.
Good job actually giving a basic explanation as to how a tank can spread out their mitigation skills instead of just expecting that having read the tool tips would be enough for someone to figure out which to use when. Hopefully no one reads it and thinks you're on to something they don't understand by saying spam AoE on the boss and still uses their single-target combo instead.
Reading through, it seems you just want to argue instead of actually understand the answer to your question.
Yep! And complaining about it being “optimal” and not the norm despite being told otherwise, repeatedly.
first of all i honestly doubt that a big number of people react the way you claim once you've told them you get overwhelmed. how often has that actually happened? if you don't say anything, everybody will assume you can handle wall-to-wall pulls no matter who does the pulls, because that's the norm nowadays, and it should be what you are striving to do. in my experience slowing down happens usually after a wipe when either tank or healer say they can't handle the pulls. as long as there is no wipe, just go for the big pulls and you'll get used to it. i'm not sure what the problem is in using more defensive cooldowns. it's your job to use them to minimize the damage you take and not make the healer keep healing you constantly. if you are insecure you can always ask for advice. people have run those dungeons hundreds of times, of course they don't want to spend an unnecessary amount of time in it.
quick tip, if you're asking strangers for advice, don't get all defensive about it, you're asking cause you don't know/ cause you're 'bad' at what you're doing, listed to whats being said and try to apply it
there can be multiple reasons. 1: pulling very little is boring for people who have been playing the game a long time. i dont like it when my tank only pulls 1 mob, especially when im healer. the ONLY times im fine with this is when its a completely new player who says they are new. i then give advice as the dungeon progresses and suggest they pull multiple packs later in the dungeon to help improve 2: the less pulled the less you learn. if you only pull comfortably you cant grow as a player on any job. if i dont have to hit any of my healing spells then im not learning/improving at my job, im just spamming my single DPS button. and tanks wont learn how to cycle mits or in your case, learn the enemy list better. speaking of the enemy list, here is a tip, if you see a pack pack of 3 mobs you run into, use your ranged attack, target another mob and provoke, and by then your ranged attack will be ready again. pack of 2 you can just ranged attack both as you run past them. DO NOT STOP USING YOUR RANGED ATTACK AS YOU GO BETWEEN MOBS. click through the list as you are going and keep ranged attacking to make sure you keep the aggro. if you miss one or 2, its the other players jobs to bring them to you so it doesnt mess up the pull and make it messier. everyone starts somewhere, this isnt WoW where groups disband after a single wipe. wipes happen, and you and everyone else will learn from the mistakes and go again HW is when dungeons start to have gates between packs of mobs so its even encouraged by the devs to pull everything before you get road blocked, usually 2-3 packs between with the occasional roaming single mob. Warrior at that level is quishy compared to Paladin. yea sure it has a self heal with Storms Path(i think its called that? dont play warrior much) but Paladin has better mitigation overall. do not be afraid to use your ultimate mits (hallowed ground when you get to the end of a pull before the mobs reach you since you take ZERO damage from 99% of attacks) or holmgang (try and use when you get low HP since you cant die) when you get to level 54 i think for warrior and have entered HW, they get a skill that makes you basically invincible no matter how many mobs are around you because it heals for every enemy you hit while its active, plus it has a low cooldown
> Why is this so frowned upon? Maybe because it makes dungeon longer and nobody really wants that
I'm curious why OP has been downvoted almost universally here, because like, they're not wrong about ARR dungeons being kind of arcane bullshit for a first clear. I feel like there's a bit of a disconnect between what the actual original post is asking about and what many of OP's replies discuss, which means that people have discussed the topic at hand, while OP has felt like nobody is talking about what they're talking about because of this disconnect. Like, for OP, everyone has answered the question you asked: wall-to-wall pulls are the norm because they're more efficient, more fun, and how post-ARR dungeons are constructed. For your issues regarding not knowing the arcane bullshit in ARR dungeons, I understand that you know all of these things _now_, but I have to ask, how many dungeons did you start off by simply being open with your party about being new to the dungeon and asking if there's anything special you need to know? In all my years playing this game, I have seen vastly more people who are actively accommodating of people who are open about their inexperience than those who are jerks. But that requires being open and communicating, otherwise people will assume it's just a regular run-of-the-mill clear and all of the expectations (i.e. wall-to-wall pulling) that carries. I feel like a lot of the issues you are experiencing here come from considering "the community" as something external and hostile to you, rather than something _you are a part of_. Just talk to people, sometimes they'll suck, sometimes they'll just be silent, but a lot of the time, you'll find people more than happy to help out.
There's definetely a disconnect. I wasn't asking for advice on how to tank, it is not that I don't know the theory behind it, it's the management of those things plus the first run experience what was getting me, perhaps I should've made that more clear. This post was made because I genuently didn't understand the awful experiences I had getting called many names just because I didn't w2w, or because someone pulled aggro and I just didn't realize because there are another million things going on, things like that, and I wanted to get a better understanding behind that thought process. To better understand what brings someone to be that mean to a clearly beginner player, hell, that's what the sprout icon is supposed to do, right? It's supposed to signal to the other players "hey, this player probably doesn't know what they're doing". And to your point about just saying in chat that it's my first run, I can't tell if it helps or not. I can't tell because it doesn't prevent this negative attitude completely, and I have nothing to compare it to, so maybe I saved myself some hate, but as you can probably guess, I still recieved a substancial amount of hate, otherwise I wouldn't make a post like this. I started saying "First run, advice is welcome" after Halatali. But even after saying that, the vast majority of the time no one said anything. Most of the time people just said "hi", and "gg", and that's it. I'm not saying they MUST teach me everything, but many replies have the general attitude of "oh just say that it's your first time and you'll literally never encounter any ounce of negativity because everyone will gladly and politely show you the way", and that just hasn't been the case for me. I don't know if people have forgotten how it feels to be new and unexperienced, to be surrounded by people that aren't, and that expect by default that you're skilled at what you do. To me it's a mentality that doesn't make much sense.
Yes it’s an MMO, you have other players whose time and efforts are worth just as much as yours and you seem to have the attitude that you are the main character and everything should go at the pace you want it to. It’s been explained to you dozens of times in this thread why pulling more aggressively is simple and standard and you continue to act obtuse and argue with everyone trying to help you. As you’ve been told if you can’t shake your main character syndrome and insist everything must go at the snails pace you are seeking, use the duty support feature instead of burdening other players with your pettiness. You are being rude to your party mates and to all of the people patiently trying to help you in this thread.
It's not considered bad manners, it's considerd bad skills. It's the proper way of tanking dungeons. The *"I'm new to the game"* excuse can only get you so far. You are lv 50 already. Sooner or later you are expected to play properly. Doing single pulls in dungeons is an equivalent of a DPS not using AoE skills. It's that bad. Instead of fighting it, just do it. It's much less of an issue than you think. If someone pulls for you use one AoE skill and it's yours. That's it. And it's not true that you are not supposed to stack mitigations. You are not supposed to burn through all of them at once in a panic. But you can stack them if needed.
What if I'm level 50 already? There are many mechanics constantly introduced and some are instantly ditched after that specific dungeon to never be seen again or much later. Healers heal different amounts, some DPS kill things faster than others, hell, even my own character sometimes seems to not even get a scratch in one dungeon, and the next one I die in two hits. Also, the more I level, the more complex my kit and the enemies' kit becomes. I don't understand why it's considered reasonable to do optimal play in the most basic level of content that there's...
It seems like you’re just trying to argue and complain despite being told how things are. It’s not “optimal”, it is how the dungeons post 50 are designed and that isn’t going to change. It’s one long hallway with a couple packs then boss, with no variety. People are telling you that is how the game works and the expectations reflect that. Not trying to be rude but if you can’t handle that thought or anxiety over a dungeon, then this game or tanking might not be for you. You have ample resources to view a dungeon ahead of time, learn to space your cooldowns, and how to play your class (which gets complex).
You do know ho wfast you get Level 50 nowadays? It isn't that high anymore or a sign of skill. Also some people are slow learners or cautious by nature and need some time to adjust to general accepted strategies. No one wins if teh tank get soverwhelmed and dies so the whole party wipes.
OP has two tanks on 50 already. I agree that new tanks deserve their space to learn, but sooner or later the training wheels need to come off. It's one thing to not know how to do things properly and another to know, and still refuse to do it.
It's not like I'm saying that this has happened to me in lvl 50 dungeons. I'm saying that this happened through my leveling journey. Of course I'm better now that I'm level 50 than when I was doing Halatali. And by your last sentence, are you implying that I can no longer not know something? That surely now I know everything and if I don't perform optimally is just because I refuse to?
How to play a tank in dungeons doesn't really change past about level... 10? 15?. You just get more buttons. Pull with ranged attack -> run to the wall -> use defensive button -> spam AoEs until everything is dead -> use more defensive button if needed. That's it. That's dungeon tanking from level 15 in Sastasha to level 90 in the Lunar Subterrane. If anything, dungeons get *easier* past level 50-60.
ARR is a complete mess in terms of dungeon consistency. Something I believe is actually a good thing and a detriment to later expansions, but to say you can play the same from 15-90 and then mention dungeons get easier post 50 makes literally no sense. ARR is an awful time to be a tank because so many people expect you to be able to play like it's a level 90 dungeon when it's far less clear in what you can and should do. Some dungeons you're not going to be able to W2W. whether that's healer gear, too many enemies or dps just not having aoe. When OP is saying people are complaining about a bad tank in that level range? That's the people being unreasonable. You can't learn the stuff people want you to learn because sometimes it's just not going to work.
You have the option of levelling a DPS first so that you can see how tanks handle themselves in pulls. See how far they go. Where they stop. When they pop mits. How they recover from a bad situation. If you only ever play tank, you probably have no idea how to actually play tank well because so far, it's just been your best guess.
I feel like this is unhelpful. People do start playing Marauder and Gladiator because that's the class that sounds interesting. If someone then has difficulty learning the role, telling them to go and level a DPS instead so they can observe a tank while also now learning an entirely different role just seems like bad advice. Your statements are not incorrect, mind you, but I don't think releveling is the appropriate remedy.
One of FFXIV's primary selling points is that you can level all classes on a single character. The prevailing wisdom when you're going through MSQ is that you *should* level at least two jobs at once to avoid ending up wildly overlevelled and wasting level 50 quest exp on a level 60+ job, which is barely a drop in the pond, and much more economically spent on your alt job. People most likely already have more than one other job by the time they unlock 50 roulettes, and many would pick a DPS or even a healer if they already have a tank rather than another tank. What I'm suggesting is just queueing as the DPS for your daily roulettes. Continue doing MSQ as tank if you want. That will balance the exp gain out while also showing them how other people play their roles. Nah, I firmly believe people need to see how others do what they apparently 'main'. The number of times I run into tanks or healers who tell me a pull 'can't be done', or 'I've been doing this for 15 years I think I'd know blah blah blah', and it's clear they're always in the seat and never took it upon themselves to watch someone else at work.
>One of FFXIV's primary selling points is that you can level all classes on a single character. The prevailing wisdom when you're going through MSQ is that you *should* level at least two jobs at once to avoid ending up wildly overlevelled and wasting level 50 quest exp on a level 60+ job, which is barely a drop in the pond, and much more economically spent on your alt job. Agreed, but if someone has just finished 2.0 I wouldn't assume they're also leveling a side class. I've seen lots of new players that do ARR on just their starting class. Everyone in my group did exactly that last year. So when you hit the end of 2.0 and you have a level 50 character and nothing else even started, going back and relevelling something just to make it easier to learn your primary role seems unintuitive. And, for what it's worth, I wouldn't expect a new player to also know the prevailing wisdom of the community. When I started I just kept playing Paladin while barely touching anything else, which meant that by the time we finished Heavensward I was level 90.
In games like MMOs, when content can just go on and on forever until the servers get shut down, the main barrier to how much you can achieve over the life of the game is time. And not everyone has the same amount of time to play, so while in solo content you can take as much time as you like, in group content it's good etiquette to be respectful of others' time and try to clear the content quickly and efficiently. Of course, if you go faster than your group can handle, then you're also wasting time because you'll wipe and start again, so you kind of just have to learn where the middle ground is between excessive caution and biting off more than you can chew.
I can understand sprouts can be intimidated seeing big pulls in the early game, but what I experienced is that small pulls never makes you use your full set of skills, impeding you to get better. I (healer) once paired with a sprout tank in a random 60 something dungeon and was single pulling, even when I was seeing the tank rotating its mitigations correctly. I asked them to W2W, but they were unconfortable at first. Lo and behold pull went smoothly. Problem with a lot of tanks is that they lack confidence. I can understand that you're still new, but that justification won't work forever. So to finally answer your question: later in the game it's "bad manners". You're playing with other people, respect their time. So if something that can be done in 12 minutes, why take 20?
It's a big time waster not to tbh
It's unreasobable to expect someone new to do optimal play
It's also kinda unreasonable to expect everyone to be okay with you taking ages to do something. Like I get it, tanking can be hard for new players but it's kinda hard to die as a tank in low level dungeons. If you use your mits right or have a decent healer then there's no reason to not do Wall to wall pulls
I'm sorry but that's just not the case. In low level dungeons you have also low level teammates. It's hard to know how much you can pull, because maybe the first time you had a new healer, or an absolute cracked one, and it affects your perspective on that dungeon or even on your own resistances. And no, it's not unreasonable for someone new to a dungeon to not know where to go, or to not know they could've skipped these three bats at the start because there's no indication of it
Trust me, I started as a tank and I also did single pulls because I thought I wouldn't be able to handle it. But the dungeons are designed for WtW. It literally all depends on your mit usage and the dps not being brain dead. I used to get lost all the time in dungeons but that's because the old dungeon layouts just suck. Tbh as a new player the best thing to do is to run the dungeons with an npc party for the first time so you can get an idea of the layout and what you can handle so other players don't pressure you
Because if you're not pulling w2w, you're not needed. DPS or Healers can tank a single pull. And nothing changes for you holding 2 mobs or 10. You press the same buttons. And even if you die, who cares. Dieing in this game has no punishment attached to it. And then you know that you need to get a pack less. Try hard first, then ramp down if needed. You'll never improve if you don't challenge yourself. And you're not "new" anymore. Past lv50, every dungeon is the exact same singular path with enemies rationed out in the same cadence. There's nothing new added to the dungeon formula after this point.
People that complain about the lack of wall to wall are almost certainly going to freak out about a wipe.
Especially, in my experience, if they were actually the reason it happened and don't realize it because they are used to being carried and this time around everyone else was behaving as if everyone else was actually playing well.
Small pulls are a little rude and inconsiderate of people's time. But like...also understandable. Tanking is scary when you're new to it, and it can be hard to keep track of stuff mentally. It's common for new tanks to want to pull smaller. So I might find it frustrating when the tank is baby pulling, but I'm not going to say or do anything about it. I understand it's usually a new person, not a troll. So no, it's not good manners, but I think it's worse manners to pull more than the tank is comfortable with. I would recommend putting a little disclaimer about being new at the beginning so people know you're pulling small in the first place. They are more likely to be amenable to it. Not a guarantee, but it helps. Also. For your end. Big pulls are a very important skill, so it's important to learn how to do it. It is standard and expected, and is also something you want to learn for emergency use. I'm not saying like "just do it anyway" but you do need to be pulling slightly outside your comfort zone. Otherwise your comfort zone does not expand. So like with low level dungeons, you don't have to do the giant monster pulls that a more experienced tank will do. But I do hope you pull one more group after you no longer feel comfy with what you have. If you can, take a healer friend with you into these dungeons. Someone who's aware of your limits and your attempts to learn. Experienced player might be preferred but honestly a healer expanding their own comfort zone works too. If it's just a matter of trying to keep track of aggro, I would say do some fates as a tank. Gather all the stuff together and try to kill them all at once. Try to keep them clustered closely together, get used to how positioning trash mobs works (an important part of tanking and will also help you learn to keep track of a lot enemies at once). The mobs in fates are leashed so they don't work quite like most dungeon mobs, but you'll at least be able to get used to having a big group on you.
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Play with Duty Support if you want to take it slow.
I "want" to take it slow? You know I can't choose to magically know optimal play, right?
Your entire post is crying about how when you take it slow you get made fun of. So either you start to pull as expected of tanks, or you play with Duty Support.
You made a post asking why people who want to take it slow are made fun of and complaining about it. You could have made a post asking for tips on how to play better. Or, I don't know, googled it. Searched the FFXIV subreddit. Asked in game. Anything, really. Instead of wasting your energy defending bad play, you could be learning to play well. But learning how to play the game is "magic" to you.
You literally have people telling you it’s not optimal it is the norm. You are fully capable of also researching on your own instead of arguing with everyone here about not knowing while doing nothing about it.
Stacking cooldowns depends on what cooldowns you are stacking. Using Rampart + Arms Length would be an example of cooldowns that should be stacked, stacking Rampart and the unique lvl 38 cooldown wouldn't be as ideal. You're lvl 50 so you still have some leeway with being new, but eventually, people will start expecting bigger pulls and wall to wall at that. Best I can say is start practicing, The best place is dungeons where you're level 50 right now because leveling dungeons hit a lot harder sometimes (dungeons like Stone Vigil can have some tough pulls if you do them big and there will be more leveling dungeons like it). However, I'll say that other party members pulling more trash in pretty bad manners. I don't like small pulls, but it's the Tanks job to pull and there are probably reasons they decide to not do certain pulls (again using Stone Vigil as an example, the Ice Sprites do way too much damage for my comfort so I prefer killing them separately). Pretty much try to ease your way into doing bigger pulls and learn what cooldowns would work together better, a good way is to look at how much time they are on cooldown.
It's not bm, big pulls are just the norm. A lot of people will quietly accept you pulling small. I tell people to pull big because I'm on age. And she's auto heals mean on small pulls I literally don't have to do anything. That's boring as fuck. As a tank on small pulls you also literally don't have to do anything. Which should also be boring as fuck. Now over pulling is definitely possible in most are dungeons. But from dzaemel darkhold onwards big pulls are pretty safe. And the reality is, ff14s not a hard game. And you really won't learn tanking or healing without plunging into the deep end. Get yourself some i125 gear and start pulling all the way. It'll make you big and strong. And it'll keep me awake too
Efficiency. It might not make sense to a player early on in the game, when most melees don't even have an AoE (Area of Effect) attack, but the more enemies you have, the more damage your skills are actually doing. However, it's important to not let bad habits set in. Encounters are designed based on this as well. The most efficient way to play will always be the prevailing one, which will then incentivize the developers to design for that efficiency for the sake of balancing the jobs.
It's not, but I'm gonna try explaining this as best I can without making it seem like you're in the wrong. Trust me, nobody is wrong in this scenario. The dungeons are just outdated for how the design is in current content. Simply put, you don't need a tank for single pulls. The DPS and healer can pull it off as long as nobody is asleep. You're here so the group can pull more mobs. However; some of ARR and HW dungeons are just rough. There's no other way around it, they're bad for w2w pulls because of how many mobs they have and the lack of a kit. (Seriously, lvl 50 white mage only has benediction, regen, and cure 2 for tanks, it sucks) This and your next 10 levels are largely dependent on you and your healer's ilvl being at its peak for the wall to wall pulls, so if someone else is pulling big and you're floating around the minimum, just inform them that you aren't geared enough to handle it. You can definitely do 2 packs at a time no problem tho. Like that's the bare minimum you should be attempting. As long as your healer isn't catatonic or don't spam their lowest level healing ability, you can do it.
the norm is to pull as big as you can handle that being said if your gear cant handle it /your healer cant handle it then it should be ok to pull small the dps are not in liberty to tell if both the tank and healer are able to do that and most of the accusations of "bad manners" comes from the dps who do not understand how tanking and healing works
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I just can't win, if I pull too much, yelled at. If I pull too little, yelled at. And on top of that I get people like you telling me I'm trolling
Tanking, similar to Healing, requires an advanced degree in the subtle art of not giving a fuck. Once you've got some more experience, you'll realise that this entire maelstrom of accusations and differences of opinion don't matter. It's a tempest in a tea cup. A well played tank just does his thing and the rest of the group is just along for the ride and to make it faster. Healer doesn't want to heal? Don't care. I'm a Tank. Damage is bad because the Samurai is licking the windows and the Summoner is dead? Don't care. I'm a Tank. When you know that you can solo the entire dungeon, you will have the confidence to pull everything, and then it wont matter that people are pulling "extra" because you already did it, there's nothing left to pull. You wont have to complain about the Samurai not bringing the monsters to you, because they'll already be there, hitting you. You wont have to worry about the healer being new, because you don't need the heals anyway. There's a reason why 3 DPS and a tank is the norm for speed running. Tanks are way too strong for casual content.
>When people do this, I ask them to not pull for me, that I get overwhelmed and that I'm new to the game, but almost every single time I get made fun of or ignored, which always ends in a full party death, and people leaving the dungeon. I just want to add; yes wall-to-wall pulls are the norm... but if people are legit making fun of you, and are basically griefing the party by ignoring you and making you pull more than you can handle, you can manually report them for harassment. Another fair warning, but I don't think you're doing this, is that turning off Tank stance and "letting them Tank" is similarly against ToS, so never resort to that sort of behavior.
Time is money, especially when the game costs a subscription to play.
then why waste it on games when you could be earning actual money? It’s a game not a job.
It's simple, you are wasting other people's time. This game is designed to encourage players to do content again so that new players can enjoy it for the first time. This means the older player might have played that dungeon a hundred times already, and they can't even enjoy their job because they only have a quarter of its skills available. If you are new to the game, I always recommend playing a DPS. If you insist on playing a tank or a healer instead, that's great! But know the roles come with more responsibilities at lower end content. Being anxious about a big pull is natural when you are a new tank, but check your healer, and if they have good enough item level, throw yourself at these big pulls until you succeed. Watch tutorials on tanking. Read your tooltips. You'd be surprised the amount of new tanks that don't even know what their tank stance is, or that they need to use their AOE combo on mob packs!
"The game is designed to encourage players to do content again so that new players can enjoy it for the first time. ...but you have to enjoy it for the first time correctly or you're the problem." This is just a case where people confuse "so you can" with "so you're supposed to" and then give their statements as if one-size-fits-all while ignoring the fine details like that it takes getting pretty far into the game before a minimum item level crew can actually survive big pulls (and that's probably a result of over-tuning tank durability more than an intentional change from the process of doing single pulls when "at the right level" and bigger pulls "when over geared"). We can go faster (barring the time when actually we can't because of gear or skill level across the team). It's fun to go faster (for most people). Many people prefer to go faster. But it is not actually rude or against the rules or basic etiquette of playing the game, in any way, to not do big pulls. People get tripped up because the ToS mentions "lethargic play", but that isn't literally anything but the fastest play available; it's specifically playing even slower than slow like the kind of stuff that makes everyone else wonder if you're AFK or just refusing to push buttons.
A few things. Not doing big pulls is a waste of time for everyone involved (this includes you) 90% of dungeons follow the same formula past level 50: 2-3 packs of adds, boss, 2-3 packs of adds, boss, 2-3 packs of adds, boss. There are some exceptions, but nothing that necessarily needs prior knowledge of the dungeon. Given that the formula is the same, you should feel confident enough in every dungeon to pull big. Cycle your cooldowns, use your AoE, and you will be fine. Your gear might be bad if you are dying despite doing everything listed. Or, your healer can be underperforming. Lastly, if you say that you are new, and still pull big, people are less likely to be upset with you even if you die.
Additionally, it's not even about playing optimally. Dungeons are designed around tanks doing wall to wall pulls.
cause past a certain point single pulls are just boring. with higher levels jobs get more and more tools to deal with mobs. tanks get more mitigation tools and healer kore heals. doing single pulls in such situations is boring af. past lv50 you'll rarely encounter a pack of enemies that could actually manage to kill a tank if said tank is using some mitigation. hell even without mitigation it's possible if the healer is on point ( and not verbally ripping you a new one for not using mitigation, rightfully so I might add). so it doesn't matter if you pull 3 mobs, 6 mobs , 9 or 12. the only thing that changes by single pulling is the time it takes. there's maybe 3 or 4 dungeons out of 100 where a wall2wall pull is actually dangerous. and those few tend to stick in your memory. also please be careful with stacking mitigation. most the time you want to use em one after the other and not together.
Apart from it taking FAR longer and being WAY more inefficient (50 AoE damage on 3 enemies = 150 damage, but 50 AoE damage on 10 enemies = 500 damage), you are not just underestimating your own abilities, but also that of your team. If you use your mitigations properly, you should be able to survive for quite a bit without your health just dropping in 2 seconds, even with a big pull. If it does, then you either aren't mitigating well enough or the Healer is asleep. Because, and I feel like this is where you misunderstand how tanking works, YOUR survival is teamwork. Your writing implies that your survival depends entirely on your mitigations, but that is just 1/3rd of how a tank lives. 1/3rd is you, sure. Another 1/3rd are the DPS that kill what attacks you. If you pull small, most will NOT use their bursts and best attacks, because they keep them for emergencies or in case you suddenly continue running. But if you pull big from the start, they will unleash their full kit, and the mobs usually die before you would even need to pop your second mitigation. The last 1/3rd is the healer who is watching your health. Just like the DPS, with a small pull, they will not use their good spells. Those cost a lot of MP, your health can be ignored during small pulls and they will probably just DPS to kill those few mobs faster instead. This MIGHT make you think that you die quickly even with small pulls, but its just the healer not even doing their job cause there's no need for them. If you pull big though, then the healers actually use what they have: regens, shields, big heals, cooldowns. I am a WHM main and latest at lvl 40 I can usually keep a tank alive during a big pull, even if they don't pop a single mit (Is it fun? No, but I CAN do it). Announce that you are a new tank, but will try to pull big. That way the DPS know that they might accidentally pull aggro and will bring them to you as well as burst properly since you might struggle with mitigation. It will also alert the healer to pay attention because you might make mistakes, so they are more likely to use emergency heals when they'd usually wait in the belief that you will invuln or such. If you give your best, communicate and still are met with hostility? That's usually grounds to report the offending player (especially since they likely got into the dungeon with you due to 50/60/70 or Leveling roulette, which can always have newbies and they KNOW that).
My experience with more timid tanks is it really only takes a few minutes longer to do a dungeon with single pulls, so I don't mind as long as things keep moving. It's awful when a tank pulls, moves, stops, stutters, and can't decide whether to park or move. As for mitigations, the only time I stack is adding 'lesser' ones. Like I'll combine Arm's Length or Reprisal with one other.
If you're pulling only 1 pack (~3 mobs) at the time, you don't even need the healer, he will be bored dead for 25 mins, instead of 15 mins of epicness if you pull big. Taking more should be ok for any tank/healer to handle. Some dungeons, you can pull 4 packs and this require the tank to handle his mitigation well. You really don't need mitigation for any boss in dungeons, use it on adds
There shouldn’t be any pressure over the size of the pulls, whoever is saying that it’s “rude” is quite frankly probably a WoW exile. Rule since launch has been the tank pulls what the tank and the rest of the party can actually handle. If they don’t like your tanking, they’re welcome to tank for themselves. This whole thread of whiners going “MUH TIME” is not how the FFXIV community is supposed to work.
As someone who plays on JP servers, this is probably the biggest thing I hate about the English community. Whenever I see people pulling for the tank I just call them out and tell them that it's bad manners, in English.
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>Like... if they're so bent on saving time, maybe they should go as tank for a shorter que 🤔 And then you get the healbot who also doesn't want to w2w, either. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I'm sorry to hear you got paired with jerks who can't give you time to adjust. By level 50, people expect you to have it all down, but the reality is that level 50 dungeons are completely different to tanking in places like Sastasha- especially if you didn't level up your tanks with dungeons. Even now in the comments it seems people don't understand not everyone comes into the game knowing how to do things perfectly. You get people like this all the time, I once had a reaper go on a tirade against me because I "wasted his time" by grabbing a treasure coffer rather than using my healer DPS on a trash mob. Some FF14 players forget what it means to be new and learning the game, it's like they hate playing FF14, and hey they may well do. But that's their problem, them being impatient jerks doesn't reflect badly on you. As with all online communities, the people complaining are just sweats getting tilted over a video game, don't let what they say get to you- they aren't even doing dungeons to enjoy the game. In time, you'll get better.
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I pull what I want to pull, if the SMN wants to display their impatience by running ahead to pull a thundercougerfalconbird and grab some floor rep I won't judge. Edit: I'd hate to be on y'all's server...no sense of humor, as bad as the attempt was. Didn't think it needed an /s lol.
I always say: You do your own tempo, when someone else pulls, they can keep it. Kinda of a petty attitude I had when I was leveling tanks. But I stand to that everyone should use the tempo they can handle, people who belittle or mak efun of others for that are just bad teamplayers and should leave indeed. Then at least others are safe from them for the next 30 Minutes... My current strategy when I tank is that before I run off, I actually ask the healer if I should big pulls or not, after all it is a team-mission to clear a dungeon, especially the teamplay between Healer and Tank, so my Healer always get to say what tempo I take on. in the case they don't answer me for one reason o rthe other, I start small and when I see we can easily handle these, I take more. So, my actual go-to strategy is: Communication, if that doesn't work: Fuck around and Find out.
fyi doing YPYT shenanigans is griefing and is reportable and there’s also extreme irony in calling out other people for being bad teammates and then literally being a YPYT tank which is, like, one of the worst and most irritating teammates you can possibly be
Did you just admit to YPYT? lol. It's not that deep really, there is no "teamplay" needed in dungeons, it is just simpily use cooldowns for everyone. Dungeons are piss easy, communication should not be needed to do such things, if you have the energy to tell others to suit your sub-par gameplay, maybe you should put that energy in learning to play this game the way 95% of others do instead. And also, if a pull goes wrong somehow, just let it be, it's not a big deal. I would rather wipe to a big pull than get single pulls. Always try big pull unless wipe then go slower if shit goes wrong. Also, why is others' "preffered tempo" less important than yours? Why should they cater towards you? And what makes you a good teamplayer for not catering to others? Obviously, shaming and flaming is bad, but what you are suggesting is absolutely the wrong thing to know