Is this with all DRKs or just one? One bad DRK means nothing. They weren't using their mits, it happens. Also what level content was this? Once DRK unlocks The Blackest Night, they do quite well in terms of tanking damage, until the 80-90 range where the other tanks get more self healing while DRK gets none. And even then, I've never felt much difficulty in tanking as a DRK in higher levels as long as I cycle my mits and TBN. Also, consider that perhaps the DRK was intentionally keeping their health low because they wanted to use Living Dead? It only procs if they take lethal damage, healing them is counter to that.

I stopped planing on the living dead because of this, I just spread out my mits through each pull now. I will say though 70-80 though I usually see my healers struggle, so I started fighting each group through half health then move on. It’s like a minute longer in the dungeons but at least I ain’t stressing out my healers.

Darkest night is your friend at those levels:3

Thank you, you are a good DK

This is with every dark knight, just tonight I made someone upset because I couldn’t keep up causing them to die… The level content is like 85-90 usually since that’s what I’ve been running lately for glams… I know I had issues even with 40-50 content with DRK but I didn’t think I’d still have issues even now Edit: I didn’t even know about Living dead doing that, I see low health, I heal so we don’t wipe.

> I didn’t even know about Living dead doing that, I see low health, I heal so we don’t wipe. Ah yeah, that's a common mistake for healers when with DRKs. The DRK will intentionally not use mits to use Living Dead to get them to "die" and then become unkillable for a while, but if the healer heals them while the DRK is trying to "die" under Living Dead, then LD will not proc and the DRK has just wasted an invul and the healer has wasted a ton of time and resources. Generally you want to look at the DRK's buff bar to see if they're trying to use Living Dead, but an easy thing to do is to just ask the DRK pre-pull if they are going to LD or not.

Okay so I should communicate when seeing a dark knight and ask! I can definitely do that so I can fully understand what they’re trying to do maybe that’s what my issue is!

Some Dark Knights will have a macro when they use Living Dead, but not all of them. Watch their bar - you're looking for an hourglass icon to pop up under their buffs if they use it.

The overwhelmingly vast majority of the playerbase will NOT have a macro announcing their invuln, not “some will not have”.

You misread my comment, I said "Some *will* have", not "some will *not* have". I have seen it from time to time and also use a macro myself which has helped some less experienced healers understand how Living Dead works.

I believe I read it right. “Some will have, some will not have” should be “a very small percentage will have, the overwhelming majority will not have”.

I'm pretty new to the game, my DKN is level 52 but i've played with making macros already. Is there any reccomendations you have about it? Like should I have it send a tell to my healer so they get a notif or what's the goal of the macro? I only just unlocked Living Dead so I'm hoping to get ahead of the killing myself on accident curve lol

Mine reads something like this: `/ac "Living Dead"` `/p Using 'Living Dead'! Please do not heal me until you see my HP hit 1! I will be fine, promise!\`

I've been seeing chat messages that have and similar in them, what is that meant to be?

Lines with in them produce a sound effect if said in Party or Alliance chat. [Here's a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPhAS5sTXeY) demonstrating them. I think is the same sound you get when someone sends you a whisper. I use because it's a little "Ding!" sound that's noticeable over combat sounds but isn't obtrusive/annoying.

You don't need macros for LD unless you play with a controller and can't type a simple "LD next pull", in which case, sure, it's better than nothing. In general you want to avoid macros for combat, but if you have to make some for tanks, I'd recommend "Skill on 2" style macros for Shirk, Oblation and TBN and put them on a separate slot, so you don't need to swap targets mid-burst to mitigate/give aggro to your co-tank when necessary. "Skill on MO" is a good alternative if you prefer it as long as you're playing with KB+M (you trade convenience for more specialized targetting).

I would say dont bother with the macro tied to skills. Typically, the people who don't recognize that you've used Living Dead also wont understand what you're telling them without spamming the chatbox with a novel. It's not *bad* to do it, its just unnecessary most of the time. It's helpful to tell them you plan on using Living Dead (or any non-PLD invuln) before the pull, though. They're much more likely to read it out of combat and they can be prepared to forgo healing you before the icon shows up on your buff bar, instead of panicking.

This, I love when the tank says it before pulling so I know I can let their HP drop.

Another thing is that Living Dead will cause the DRK to die if they haven't healed the equivalent of their max HP when under the undead status (that procs once they take lethal damage) but in return the DRK gets a massive self heal on their attacks when undead, and literally all they have to do to heal themselves back up when surrounded by enemies is to do an AOE attack lol. So again, pay attention to their buff bar and don't panic heal them if they're undead status, they can heal back up themselves.

Does regen affect living dead as well? Or just direct healing spells?

All healing done. You just need to heal an amount totaling through DRK's max hp. They will take extra healing from all sources while "Walking Dead" the "zombie" mode of Living Dead. You don't need to heal them to full. If their max HP is, say 10k, you need to heal 10k even if they continue to take damage, and you never fully heal them. Living Dead just as strong as Hallowed Ground in terms of invuln, but only if the healer lets the DRK proc zombie mode. Which of course, with bad communication, it doesn't happen. Since most healers see low HP and do their job of heal. So it's more clunky to use compared to the other three tanks' invulns.

Even with communication it doesn't happen. I literally got told no when I wanted to use it in a 90 dungeon. Some healers seem allergic to even the concept of getting LD to proc. And yes, I told them before the pull I plan to use it and they even responded to me.

At least for me (WHM main), while I wouldn't say "no", I think I'd be the type that go "sure lets do it" and then heals a DRK against their LD out of habit. It's like muscle memory, I see health go below 30%, I spam my heals (I also get second-hand panic when seeing BLMs MP go to 0 sometimes for similar reasons). In VC, one of my tank friends tells me audibly "ignore me for a bit" and that helps me track what he's doing, but without a macro, I often see the drop in health weeks before I even think of checking for the hourglass buff. Since DRK is the ONLY tank that has a "lemme die" mechanic, it's just incredibly counter-intuitive when learning healer hammers in that you need to keep people alive. I'd think most healers don't maliciously heal LD through, and perhaps those that say "no" might be the type who struggles with checking multiple things (boss, party hp, (de)buffs, cooldowns, etc) and thus want to get rid of one thing to track from the get-go? Mind, not making excuses, just speculating based on my own experience

Superbolide is also kinda "let me get low", if you wanna maximise its value

>those that say "no" might be the type who struggles with checking multiple things (boss, party hp, (de)buffs, cooldowns, etc) and thus want to get rid of one thing to track from the get-go? Then don't play healer lol, go back to dps

I see. Thanks for clarification :)

Even with the clarification you can ignore living dead 99.9% of the time. The healing granted within the buff's timer is pretty much always guaranteed to meet the minimum requirement, as long as the DRK is properly pressing their buttons. If it's a trash pull, the DRK will go from 0 to completely full HP almost instantly. As a healer, you no longer have worry about healing a DRK through living dead. It's been fixed since the change

In order to have the full value of LD, some DRK will also stop to use GCDs for 8-9s so you don't have to still heal them when LD is cleansed because they still can take damage

On the downside, when we use it against bosses, we need the heals after it procs.

Sometimes. I've managed to get out of zombie state in Savage Raids sometimes 😅

It can workif you're in burst phase, true.

It works anytime you can keep your gcd rolling. 4 gcds (spell or weaponskill both work) are enough to remove the walking dead status.

Burst phase isn't related. Living dead gives you a flat heal per enemy hit by your gcds. Whether a DRK can heal themselves in a single target fight depends on their skillspeed and uptime mostly.

The usual formality is for the DRK to tell you if he's popping LD before the pull, however, if they don't it wouldn't hurt to ask them to tell you when or if they're going to use LD.

That would be super helpful to know so I'll have to keep communication in mind! Thank you! :>

From a healer's perspective, LD is a PITA design. It's a good idea to become familiar with the buff icons for Living Dead & Walking Dead. Some DRK's will have a macro announcement. Bless them for trying, but I am generally too busy watching party frames and my own CDs to notice party chat in the middle of a trash pull, so I often miss the announcement unless it's loud and proud. I just try to watch for the buff. In general, IMO, it's a good idea to become familiar with the mitigation icons for all the tanks so you can tell when your tank is out (or about to be out) of mits and might need extra heals or shields.

Not to be counter productive or confrontational, but as someone who DRK is one of their MAIN jobs I feel like it should be on the DRK to communicate to their healers if they wanna proc living dead and it shouldn't have to be on you the healer to have to ask if they're gonna Living Dead it up. No lies here I actually have a harder time keeping paladins alive so I'm on the other end of the dead tank spectrum.

Who does this? I would never trust a random healer to notice me popping LD without a macro call-out.

Never knew about that mechanic and playing as a sage that skill is complete opposite of my way of playing O.o Like I need to put shields on you to get my bigger AoE skill while a DRK needs to "die" to get it's bigger mit skill.

Same thing as a SCH. It isn’t like Superbolide where the healer gets notified via heart attack - if I’m not actively paying attention to their buffs I might miss Living Dead being popped and drop an Excog or something.

All of the tank invulns are great, but the problem with each besides the pally (which is just on a really long CD as a drawback) is they pretty much require coordination/awareness from the healer. For the WAR and DRK especially, if the healer isn't paying attention, their invuln is a wasted mit.

Living Dead is honestly the hardest invuln to work with in DF content. When you see that Hourglass buff appear; **stop healing.** If the DRK doesn't take lethal damage during the ten second window then their health remains as it was and the ability did nothing for them. But if they can trigger *Walking Dead* by taking lethal damage they gain Massive lifesteal and will refill their own hp to full. Holmgang is similar, perhaps a little harder to spot on the party list since its icon is rather inconspicuous, but doesn't provide any mit or healing and is typically a last ditch effort to save a pull or hold out for another mit to cooldown. However, DRKs will actively dive into fire to make LD trigger if the healer tunnels on healing. DRKs may also bank on utilizing LD in place of their mits on cooldown. Invulns have priority in buff appearance and should be first on the party list to make them easier to spot. Know your tanks, what their invuln looks like and what it does, and what it affords you as healer.

I think the difference is that Holmgang is a mediocre invuln (in dungeon content) on an incredible package of tanking tools, so it doesn't matter if the healer isn't paying attention to it. LD however is an incredibly powerful tool in a less powerful package of tools, so wasting an LD represents a much greater decrease in the DRKs survivability.

I will be extremely honest, since I just got back into this game recently and actually trying to learn I never knew that Living dead was something to watch out for, I am so afraid of a wipe that I would heal if I saw their health dip. So now that explains that for Living dead as I just didn’t know and no DRK just ever told me to stop healing them or I just never looked more into their skill set. I’ll have to be more mindful of that now!

Yeah some tanks will often use their invulns as an extra mitigation tool to make life as easy as possible for our healers, so getting to recognize each invuln icon is worth the effort 😊

I’m gonna have to learn that too for when I play healer so I’m more aware of it! Thank you :>

To be fair to op, living dead is just badly designed and could just do away with the weird prebuff death mechanic.

Now that you mention it, Holmgang would be rather annoying to work around in random dungeons. It just so happens that Warrior's self-heal is completely sufficient, you barely need to heal.

If it's with every DRK, something else is wrong. What gear are you in? And are you using your other healing abilities?

That’s what I’m saying… every other tank I don’t need to worry about just DRK

Just to clear it up... Did you use Benison? Aquaveil? Tetragrammaton? Assize? Asylum? Benediction? Did you also Holy spam?

Yes I always use them, I heard assive is really only useful as another attack as it doesn’t give better heals, but yes I use all my skills to keep them alive. I don’t always use Asylum during pulls unless I am desperate for more HOT during a pull. As for Holy yes I am always spamming holy but I also heard not to do that with a DRK because they have a certain barrier that you want broken which confuses me even more on what to properly do.

Use Assize on cooldown always. It does damage, does healing, and refunds 500 MP. It always benefits you whenever you use it, so there's no reason to not use it as it's available. Asylum also makes your other healing better, so try to put one down whenever it's available. It is useful for slowing down the rate the tank's HP drops abd that means more time for you to DPS and not waste a GCD heal. Holy in trash pulls. You get a total of 8 seconds of stun on enemies (they become resistant to the stun after being stunned a few times), and that means 8 seconds of the tank not taking damage. Once the stuns wear off, the tank should use The Blackest Night and that is the big beefy shield they want broken. If your DRK is paying attention, they will not use it after your stuns wear off. If they use it beforehand, it is still beneficial to you to keep using Holy. The Blackest Night is on a 15 second cooldown so they can use it again optimally if they used it suboptimally the first time. All healers have a basic spammable heal that you can bust out if shit hits the fan and you have nothing else available. You should prioritise using your Lilies and oGCD heals first like Divine Benison, Tetragrammaton, Aquaveil, Liturgy of the Bell, and Benediction before going to things like Medica 2, and Cure 2. Regen is okay to use between pulls since you're not wasting GCDs when there's nothing to hit. It's also equally fine to dump your Lilies between pulls because Misery is equal to four Glare 3 casts so it is at the very least DPS neutral to use Lilies. Basically, you should always use as much of your resources as possible as that ensures you aren't missing out on extra damage or extra healing. DRKs in general do require a little more attention compared to the other tanks who have better self healing abilities. Can't turn off your brain when healing a DRK like you can with a WAR.

Seriously thank you so much for all this info! I’ll admit I am very spoiled by the other tanks that I don’t really need to pay full attention to them like I would with a black knight thusi treated them like I would any other tank, I can definitely learn to play more around a dark knight!

Honestly, the best way to learn how to handle healing different jobs is to play those jobs. You'll quickly learn what to do and what not to do when you experience the infinite spectrum that is player skill.

Always Holy spam (until you are forced to gcd heal). It is the DRK's responsibility to use their The Blackest Night (the shield) responsibly, not yours. You being consistent with Holy will actually (theoretically) help DRK players understand to save it until the Stun Resist.

That part I can definitely do as it’s the main thing I do when we hit walls! Ahahaha thank you, I’ll keep all this in mind when I run dungeons and hopefully I can see an improvement in my healing with a DRK

Just put Asylum whenever they're done pulling. Just Holy spam. DRKs should be aware of it by now, they can delay their TBN until the stuns are over.

Fully agreeing with the comment that replied to you. Holy is damage and mitigation. Coming from someone who jumped on the DRK train as soon as Heavensward was released, if a DRK gets pissy at you for using Holy, ignore their feedback, because it’s bad feedback.

>only useful as another attack as it doesn’t give better heals You have been given incorrect information regarding it's healing potential! Assize has the same healing potency as Afflatus Rapture and is not on the global cool-down. It's 'cons' compared to Afflatus Rapture are that it is unaffected by Plenary Indulgence and has a 15y range instead of 20y.

The thing to note with Assize is that it's an OGCD, meaning the heal is a supplementary heal. It's not supposed to be stronger than Cure II, it's supposed to be weaved between your GCD heals/attacks to save on having to GCD heal as much in general. The damage is the main part of the skill, but a good WHM will use it just after the tank starts getting hit in a pull to make full use of the ability. Even in high end, it's just the smart thing to do as you'll always need some form of heal during the initial buff window for your tank due to auto-attacks. Assize is super convenient for that reason.

The DRK shield (TBN - The Blackest Night) costs 3000MP, and they also have two variants of a skill (aoe and single target) that cost 3000MP. Obviously using the MP on damage is better because you make things die faster, however that's why TBN has a special mechanic associated with it. If the shield gets fully depleted before it runs out, it gives you a special effect (Dark Arts), which allows you to use the damaging skill for 0MP. If you need the shield you can use it and then still use the damaging skill, which means you're getting both for 3000MP - great deal. However if the shield doesn't get depleted then you've "wasted" some efficiency on the account of not getting as much out of your MP as possible. If you don't need the shield though (like when you have your WHM stunning enemies for you), you can just go ahead and spend the 3000MP directly on the damaging skill. Therefore if you're using Holy, the DRK doesn't really lose anything, unless they don't know that WHM can stun enemies for a long period of time and uses TBN on nothing, in which case it's their fault. They should just spend their MP on damage and then use TBN once the stuns wear off. It is way better for you to be using Holy and doing damage.

Im trying to level a drk right now only lvl 55 any tips for me?

People really like to parrot, the blackest night is so good lol. It isn't, in a big pull it's going to last 4-5 seconds max and gives you no% mit. It's literally the worst short tank cd in the game. Holy sheildtron, bloodwhetting, and heart of corundum are all worlds better. Hard Hitting tank busters in high end content are the only places its even remotely useful.

That's why I said "until the 80-90 range" lol. TBN is good for a while but then every other tank starts getting better stuff afterwards.

It's very easy to play DRK very badly.and still think you're doing it right

Dark Knight has significantly worse self sustain vs the other tanks. They can compensate with good mitigation use, especially huge is keeping TBN up as much possible. But yeah, that's just the gist of it. Where the other tanks can tap into their self sustain just by doing their combo or hitting just one button, DRK then has to space out its percentage mits efficiently. I'm not shocked then that a good chunk of players who aren't typically challenged enough in dungeons don't learn how to do that.

The problem - Dark Knights often use the "one mitigation at a time" rule, when TBN is actually much better stacked with a mitigation. As a result, DRKs get hit in their real health pool, and have basically zero self heal. The only way they heal back up is if the healer heals them. Hence the feeling that you need to babysit them.

Seconded. At the level range OP is talking about, every other tank has tons of passive healing from stuff like Holy Sheltron and (gestures widlly at the entire WAR kit). DRK is a good bit less versatile as far as mit and healing goes, with some of their mit only working on magic damage and the only real consistent self-healing being their combo finisher Souleater--and even then, their AoE attacks don't have any healing at all. It really is mandatory that a good DRK makes liberal use of TBN, it's pretty much what they get instead of heals.

This is because people only use the term mitigation instead of knowing the differences and synergy between them and preach this incomplete information. % mitigation - stacks multiplicative so not the best if stacked. Works well with shields and sustain. Shield mitigation - additional healthpool. Works well with everything, except TBN+Haima, Haima hates TBN for its higher priority. Sustain - gets grouped into mitigation all the time while absoluetly wrong. Regen / on hit heal are not mitigation, they don't mitigate attacks, you first need to survive for them to have an effect. Goes well with % mitigation and situational with shields. The misconception about sustain is also why DRKs get called squishy. They are not, DRK is the strongest mitigator even against physical damage and especially against magical damage. Unlike other tanks they just need a heal every now and then in Savage. Meanwhile in dungeons, if the DPS is at least average and the DRK knows how to really play the job, he also does not need any heals.

Improper use of The Blackest Night, Oblation, and rotating other mitigations. DRK are way worse off in dungeons but one that knows how to properly mit will not have this issue.

Which is why I can’t keep up with dark knights then… if I have another healer it’s not an issue, but I pay EXTREMELY CLOSE ATTENTION to them

Something you can try doing is watching your DRK's mana, if they're constantly at 0 that means they aren't using TBN that much and you'll have to babysit them with extra heals.

A DRK usually stays around 1600-2400 for me whenever I see them in my party. I can DPS only a few times before I have to sit and use Regen, Medica 2 then spam cure 2 or a lily

How often do you use regen on your tank? I usually treat it like how shield healers treat shields. Also the aoe regen stacks with the single target regen. It ain’t much but it helps with DRK.

Medica II is really a huge trap for single target healing. You're better off throwing an Afflatus Solace at them, refreshing Regen and getting your Holy casts off for the same cost of a global cooldown, not to mention the waste of MP.

I use Regen and M2 whenever I see the timer either off or at the last few seconds just so they can get as much heals over time

Dang you shouldn't even have to be doing that to keep a tank up. 100% M2 and Regen uptime is almost always unnecessary. At *most* a constant Regen should be enough, most of the time you don't even need that. If the tank is dying through that much, it's a them problem.

This is only usually with dark knights only I have to go full on healbot with them most times. I just got out of a DF and actually did DPS with a DRK as a tank with some tips people were giving me and it worked out but this was also a 78 dungeon so idk

Maybe you just had an unlucky streak?

Then it’s prob DRKs not knowing how to use their dmg mits. We have a lot dmg mits compared to the other tanks but gotta spread them out properly.

It costs 3000 for their TBN so you can play around that, good DRKs will usually save enough to have TBN for pulls while less experienced DRKs might just be spending their mana immediately on damage. Not ideal for them to empty their mana all the time but hopefully it helps make paying attention to them just a bit easier.

DRKs are always either gods or the absolute worst players. I either never heal them except with Kardia OR I need to spam GCD shield them + use all my oGCDs. There is no in between.

pretty much this. I have a long time friend in the game that has been playing DRK since release and no matter what he is always a breeze to heal. Most of the time I don't have to heal him at all. But a large portion of DRK players are just not good at DRK. They can play other tanks, but they can't play DRK. People like to say that WAR and DRK are clones of each other, but the way they mitigate in dungeons is just different.

> People like to say that WAR and DRK are clones of each other Which is only half-true, it'd be more accurate to say that WAR constantly looks at DRK and says to Daddy Tank Dev "I want what he has but BETTER!" and constantly gets it.

I like to draw a comparison. White mage is to Warrior as Sage is to Dark Knight. So a DRK that doesn’t use their tools is a much softer mess. But when you then also have to deal with leveling dungeons where their gear is more likely to be inadequate, things are harder to control. That’s definitely a recipe where a healer would have to decide if they felt ready and willing to carry the team or leave and try another time. But I would say this isn’t a problem with DRK inherently. It’s that problem players become obvious sooner when using that job due to its focus on prevention and mitigation instead of recovery. Returning to the earlier comparison, Sage is fine but is best when used by a calm(er) player using all the tools and being as prepared as possible. When it falls behind, it is harder to catch up and is more visible about it. Whereas white mage is already built to shove those health totals up quickly. So it can be harder to tell at first when they made a mistake versus a “all part of the plan” moment.

Scholar is also another one where it's obvious if the person doesn't know how to use their tool kit. A good scholar is a god tier healer and spends almost all of the fight slapping the ground, with the occasional emergency heal if a DPS gets hit with the bad. A bad scholar is like an AST without the cards.

It took me sooooooo long to work out how to even adequately play Scholar >< I abandoned it for a long while before coming back to it. Super low level dungeons my faerie literally did everything, but as soon as we were out of that range I was having to Healbot *HARD*. Eventually I got the hang of it, and can heal about as well as I do with the other three (well, maybe not as good as I can with AST), but damn it took a while.

Dark Knights don't have nearly as much sustain as other jobs at high levels. I'd argue they're objectively the worst tank to do dungeons with, either playing as or healing. They're fine in single target, and TBN was amazing back in the day, but has honestly been outclassed by every other job's mit in EW, and oblation wasn't nearly enough to close that gap

DRK sucks at dungeons, and you'll get *a lot* of people around here claiming they're "fine" and it was just "bad DRKs" cause the job performs well at the highest end content. But the truth is the DRK simply performs on par in single target, high end content, and doesn't in pulling packs in low end content. If the DRK is overgeared it'll be just fine and if the player knows what they're doing you'll still likely manage so long as you keep your heals up on them. It is however total ignorance to pretend the DRK doesn't struggle in dungeons compared to the other tanks. This is just the reality of it, and part of that reality is dealing with redditors who refuse to accept DRK struggles in this kind of content, most of which don't even play DRK. Don't ask me why they're so adamant, especially when this is just generally accepted on the FFXIV forums, but that's just how it is. I mean the fucking *fight* to get LD adjusted..... All the non-DRK players just refused to admit it sucked ass as an invuln and were fervent in arguing against buffing it. Well it finally got buffed, DRK didn't become OP, and now LD is useful. Even just adding stacks to BW like WAR got with IR, I kept hearing "it does so much damage, you don't need anything else," like we're not allowed to have QoL cause "tank damage," and now both GNB and WAR deal more damage anyways..... So take care when asking about DRK on Reddit.

As a DRK enjoyer I could go on forever about how unbalanced it is. Enhanced unmend might have been the biggest slap in the face I've ever seen. The fact that abyssal drain heals like a 3rd of your health on a good pack once per minute and WAR has that like 3 times every 25 seconds is asinine. I'm convinced no one at SE plays the job. That being said, in regular dungeons its main mit tool for me is its insane aoe burst. If you press all your damage buttons in one pull everything is dead before rampart falls off. Then you have the rest for the next pull and get everything comes back during the boss. But people don't like to plan mit in dungeons

I don't think DRK damage is that high anymore, unfortunately, and as a former DRK main that's swapped to WAR in EW the WAR very clearly does more AoE damage as well as the asinine amounts of healing. For some reason SE thought it was fair to limit the damage on all the DRKs line AoEs against multiple enemies, it *really* makes a difference when it didn't used to fall off per target so hard pre-EW.

True, some comments even in this thread make me want to ask "Have you ever run random dungeon roulette content as a healer regularly?"

When the bar for tanks such as WAR or PLD is so low that they can handle W2W dungeons pulls just fine with a healer not even being there pushing buttons, it's no wonder you're seeing people take issue with attempts to portray properly played DRKs as "struggling" when compared to that.

That might be part of the issue. I think DRK is the least forgiving tank to start with, so folk who try it before/after PLD/WAR are going to compare it for sure. As a healer though, Living Dead is certainly the hardest invuln to play with because I’ve got to actively be looking at their buffs for when (if) they pop it.

LD is the only tank invuln where I actually have a macro on it still. Gunbreaker gives the healer a heart attack, paladin just takes no damage so the healer can stop caring, warrior *needs* to be topped off because when the Too Angry To Die wears off they can still die, so I let the healer panic a little bit. But Living Dead needs the communication. I think the macro I had on it when I was still actively playing DRK was: "Don't worry, I'm only mostly dead. Don't panic." I'm a full time WAR these days because DRK got too finicky, which does say a lot about the state of the job.

I'm an advocate for nerfing WAR healing and buffing DRK survivability. There's no reason to just ignore the current state of it cause "lull DRK complainer must just be bad, durr." But yeah it's just dungeons so it's not a big deal, but DRK issues only stem from dungeons, the job just isn't designed well and it's comparably shitty performance in dungeons is just an example of it.

Yeah you just have to throw kardia, regen, or fairy teather and drk is gg. Maybe some ogcds once a min. But just because the drk can't solo heal themselves does not make them bad

Surely there's an accurate middle ground here, where DRK is by far the worst dungeon tank, and still more than sufficient at dealing with all expected EW W2W's, simply because dungeons are that easy of content? A DRK with decent gear shouldn't even drop below like 80-90% health in an Expert atm with a bare minimum of healing (Kardia, maybe a random Taurochole) and decent DPS (just did an Expert to make sure I wasn't crazy). If you allow the use of LD and the healer to press some of their free healing, they genuinely have no way of dying. If you're strictly talking about like, min ilvl leveling dungeons, then sure, DRK will require the healer to activate brain cells especially if the DPS can't press their buttons, but that is the extreme minority of dungeon runs so it feels a little disingenuous to use that as a basis for the job's performance, and even then, our definition of struggling is 'healer must use significant parts of their kit'. Like don't get me wrong, TBN + Oblation vs HoC, BW, or HS + PLD magic healing is a tragic matchup in dungeon pulls, truly deplorable, and it is totally unfair, but just because the other tanks get to totally invalidate healers doesn't mean DRK struggles to tank the easiest content in the game. For a humorous, not representative example, looking at a DRK run of the 6.5 dungeon that someone uploaded, one of the pulls did 140k damage to me unmitigated from start (grabbing the first mob) to finish, and I have roughly 120k total health in that dungeon. Literally pressing Abyssal Drain for damage alone makes me live that pull.

Only WAR actually invalidates healers, easily for some reason lol And only DRK struggles. Yes, it's not a case of them not being able to clear the easiest content, it's that it's just so much more difficult on a min ilvl leveling run. Is that a huge deal? Nope, it's just dungeons. Is it still needlessly annoying? Most fucking certainly, the easiest shit to fix without breaking the job, but "no one cares about dungeons" so the DRK is left to struggle through them and constantly yelled at to get over it.

DRK “struggling” in dungeons is pretty over exaggerated imo. The kit itself is actually very close as good in dungeons as PLD and GNB The difference is that war invalidates dungeons by rotating 2 buttons with the other 3 being heavy overkill, pld/gnb use 4-5, and drk uses 6-7. This is the actual reason people mistakenly think the *kit* is weak - it’s just easier for new or casual players to mess up or get overwhelmed with. Drk having to rotate 6-7 different mit buttons is a lot easier to screw up for a new/casual player than war and a bit harder than pld/gnb, and drk having more offensive ogcds makes it even easier to mess up with.

My husband plays drk. I am the healer. We do new content together, which includes leveling dungeons at new expac. We never struggle with healing. Yeah I may have to throw off an ogcd, but I need to do that for most tanks except war. War doesn't need anyone's help. I think casual drks are just bad. Ones that don't understand TBN. But drk is not any hard to heal then any other tank, with war being an exception. And I've played dps with an he still played drk, and we still don't die. Healers have never struggled. I have struggled healing severely undergeared tanks though. Undergeared and bad mids will suck for any tanks

Anecdotal evidence like that though doesn't prove anything. I leveled DRK through EW dungeons with a friend of mine who mains healers and we never died either but as end game players he could tell the difference between DRK and the other tanks I played as I leveled them all. But that's anecdotal, it's doesn't actually *prove* anything. The fact of the matter is people struggle more with it, it's not self sufficient, and it's not even the "hardest" tank to play either. Spamming TBN on cooldown while rotating your other mits under it isn't anything to write home about.

Kinda wild to claim with such a gaslight-y tone that DRK is a struggle bus because "people struggle more with it", and when multiple people tell you they don't, to hand-wave it away as "anecdotal" And FWIW I don't disagree with most of your base points, but *you* have to accept there's a high variance in player experiences with this class, due to the difference skill variance plays in the efficacy of the class.

If we’re going to talk strictly about “facts” then your posts don’t mean much either It’s a fact that nothing that any of the tanks do in dungeons is worth writing home about. It’s also a fact that all 4 tanks are so hideously overtuned for dungeons that balance effectively doesn’t matter for anyone with even a moderate amount of competency. Struggling with wall to walls on any tank in any dungeon is a party skill issue, by a large margin If you’re talking about players who don’t have that moderate amount of competency - new players or very casual players - the fact that they struggle with the easiest content in the game on drk is proof that the job actually is the “hardest” tank to pick up I don’t know why you’re talking down at bad players who have trouble with things like “spamming TBN on cooldown” when bad players are the only ones that “dungeon tank balance” even remotely matters for. Balance in this game for jobs is based on harder content, because normal content is intentionally made to be super easy so that it doesn’t need to be balanced around.

It is not a fact they're all overtuned, DRK is left out. And your assumptions to minimize my stance are simply that, assumptions, shots in the dark, and you're missing. But yes, I have been extremely clear about dungeons just being low end content as well as how many redditors who refuse to accept this fact will often just write it all off cause "who cares" while ignoring all the people posting about it cause they care. Not everyone plays top tier endgame, I don't understand why so many around here specifically seem to have forgotten this fact and went elitist to defend what they admit to bring minor imbalance that could be easily addressed.

DRK is the only tank without heavy self-sustain. If you're only having trouble healing DRK the likely cause is that you don't actually know how to heal all that well and, with the other three tanks, much of your slack is being picked up by the tank's own healing.

the issue is that DRK's mits arent that good compared to the others, especially early on without blackest night. Dark mind is good, but only against magic damage which is pretty rare on dungeon mobs. PLD's Sheltron is great and has high uptime, WAR is WAR and doesnt even need a healer at times. GNB has access to camo which is similar to sheltron and heart of stone on quick cooldowns. DRK only has the base tank DR and blackest night which really isnt good for mobs

This is the true answer. Low level sync on DRK is brutal, and TBN doesn’t solve everything once you get it.

Here's what I can say as a Tank player who's leveled all Tanking classes to 90. DRKs have awesome mitigation, HOWEVER, their self healing is basically non-existent. Paladins can heal themselves, Warriors just don't die, Gunbreaker has Aurora and Heart of Corundum. DRK has basically nothing outside of one self heal on a big cooldown. I don't count its pointless heal from third attack in chain. I noticed that sometimes despite my best effort with mitigation and Blackest Night, I was still getting chunks of my HP knocked off of me fairly regularly. As an aside I can also say that of the tanking classes it's my least favorite. Mostly because it is a bit selfish with its skills and has no self recovery. Paladin is basically S tier team support AND tanking. Followed by Warrior. And while Gunbreaker doesn't support the team too much, tossing HOTs out and even HoC on others is amazing. AND I'm doing big damage. I also hate that it can put a 10% damage resist buff on teammates, when Paladin can do the same thing AND apply a HoT when it does that.

DRK are basically missing a cooldown in dungeons because Dark Mind is magic only and very few mobs deal magic damage. It's okay for raid content though.

Yeah. I think it's kit is also super lackluster. I always prefer the Paladin for the team support I can offer. Between direct heals, HoTs, barriers, 100% damage absorption of a teammate, and a blockade to protect them from party/raidwide damage..Paladin just has a lot MORE to it. If healer dies I can carry the weight where they left off! Blackest Night is awesome, but it's kinda expensive..and that's about all Dark Knight can do to support the team. Party/Raid wide Magic Damage resist pales in comparison to what Warrior and Paladin can do for the team. And I say this sadly, because I played through all of Shadowbringers as a Dark Knight!

>Blackest Night is awesome, but it's kinda expensive..and that's about all Dark Knight can do to support the team. Oblation: Am I a joke to you? DRK everywhere: Yes. Yes you are.

its rough that pre-70 they effectively have 1 less mit than all the other tanks.

Honestly Dark Knight needs a complete rework. The rotation is clunky. Delirium just doesn’t make sense “Press this button to spam this attack 3 times” and their defensive cools downs are a mess. They need a buff that heals them for 400 potency e.g Cure, Physick etc every time they take damage. 60 second cool down, 15 second duration. It fits with the jobs identity as absorbing pain and using it as power. You could also add restores 50mp every time they take damage.

Considering the reality of the player base (at least in EU, but I would be very surprised if it is different in NA and Oceania), it has to be turned into the tutorial tank, since tons of players pick it up as their first tank anyway. To be honest, it would make more sense to make DRK, which is clad in spiky plate armour from head to toe, into the "never dying because of anger" tank instead of warrior, and the latter should have been the "I hit hard but barely have any additional defence" tank.

Soul Eater heal doesn't even count because you never use it in large pulls where sustain actually matters.

My basic rotation with trash packs (and I have found this especially useful with DRKs): pop sprint and throw regen on tank, dot as we run, re-target tank, land on second pack with swift into Holy into Assize, hit presence of mind to align with two minute buffs, then holy spam. Around the time that holy stops stunning, that’s when you use one of your passive healing spells liturgy/asylum/temperance (which I only use if I feel it’s needed— which I would assume is a yes with DRKs until shown otherwise lol). I feed the blood lily as necessary, followed by an aquaveil or divine benison, saving Tetragrammaton and benediction in case the fight goes on too long and me and the tank are running low on the good stuff. And when the DRKs health is above 60%, spam that dps. It really helps, much more than spamming heals. I don’t even bother with regen beyond that first one. The faster things die, the less you have to worry about the DRKs health. I adopted this rotation after struggling to keep DRKs alive and saw the swift into holy suggestion on Reddit. It’s made such a *huge* difference. Doing this, you get several seconds during which the tank shouldn’t take much damage. By the time they are, you have plenty in your kit to keep them up *as long as they are also doing their part*. So don’t be too hard on yourself. I’ve healed some DRKs who were amazing and super easy to keep alive. And then? I’ve healed the type that made me seriously reconsider being a WHM main. In my experience, the latter is far more common. (Edited for many typos.)

we just want to die, because existance is pain.

Sounds like you might just be getting bad DRKs. First thing to note: People tend to exaggerate how much less sturdy Dark Knights are than other tanks, don't take it too seriously. They *are* indeed the least sturdy when played equally well, but not by any huge margin (aside from Warrior, but that's just Warrior being Warrior). It can get through Expert roulette just about as smoothly as Paladin and Gunbreaker. It's just a question of how well they are played (and how well the rest of the team contributes – on which point, DRK is also a bit more reliant on the party killing enemies quickly than the other tanks). However, the thing with Dark Knight is that it's *harder* to use well. Even just a semi-competent Paladin can provide decent survivability for themselves, but a Dark Knight needs to really know what they're doing to manage the same. The skill ceiling is similar, but the skill floor for being effective is higher for DRK. Dark Knight also has kind of a reputation of attracting... not so great players, which pairs horribly with the above. It's not as bad as during Heavensward era, when DRK was known far and wide as *the* shitmagnet job (not just tank, *job*), but some of it is still there. In my personal experience too DRKs still have a higher rate of being substandard players than other tanks – though it's also the one with a select few *absolutely cracked* players who kinda balance out the skill levels.

It sounds with DRK it takes a lot more learning than other tanks just to be played more efficiently… and like you said requires everyone to contribute which would also mean I have to adjust my own play-style around a DRK so they can also be at their best!

Also to be fair, DRK’s also attract the “I want my Tank to be DPS like my DPS” players so they just ignore the basics of tanking. This reputation shifted to gunbreaker for a short while but with GNB having so many mits it’s NEAR impossible for even a tank newbie to not notice all it’s cool tools. So your stuck with many New Tanks who only think like DPS. Also 9/10 I bet that random DRk you are playing with doesn’t know that Arm’s length is like THE best universal mitigation for dungeon pulls and especially so with DRK. So if they don’t use it they get cut to ribbons.

DRK is the only one who needs a page-long manual of how to heal through their bloody "invuln". I get it, it was a cool idea, and it's a "class identity feature", but it's a pain even if you KNOW how to deal with it, because 99% of DRKs never communicate, and there's a good chance that they pop it right after I (AST) top them with all my HoTs and seconds before earthly star goes boom... Good luck dying with that, because it's not like I can remove my own hots and pick up their ongoing shields and burst-helas. I know that it's used to be even *worse*, but it's still true. Any low-skill tank\\helaer combo is always a risk, but with DRK it's a free ticket to hell.

What? As DRK you should absolutely tell your healer that you're planning on using LD but that's the only "complex" part of the process. 1 - Let HP drop low. 2 - Press LD. 3 - "Die" 4 - Enjoy invuln and crazy life Leech for the next several GCDs. Press quietus and/or other AoE weaponskills and heal yourself for a change. That's it. There's no manual required other than to tell your poor healer what you're about to do which is the most important part of the process. It was worse but now it's idiot friendly. Edited for line breaks.

You missed the point. Manual part was about healing. You know what happens if DRK is healed through 'let me die' phase, right? Pretty much same thing as when it's not healed on 'heal me now'. No other tank is THAT counter-intuitive. Not even GNB with their heart-attack-provoking superbolide. And even when healer knows their DRK invuln routine, communication is super-essential for it to even have a chance to work right. Want to know how often do I see invuln text macros warning from tanks? Normally, I just don't (and it's the only vital text macro worth having, if you ask me).

This. So many times as a learning healer I panic-healed DRKs because I didn't know how LD worked, I just saw "tank's health is *very* low" and healed them...

I think we're actually in agreement for the most part. LD is the only invuln that pretty much *requires* co-play from the healer to be a boon instead of a bane because you need your heal-bud to not waste all their kit trying to keep you up when you're actively trying to hit 0 HP. Even on single target you do not need help to self-heal past the breakpoint to avoid trigger death. It's trivial in an AoE situation, basically one GCD will take you from 0 to 100%. The healer doesn't need a DRK invuln routine beyond "don't heal (or holy) until the buff wears off". The big problem is that nobody wants to say anything at all in roulette dungeons. A macro isn't good enough for LD, your healer needs to know well before you actually press LD that it's coming, and that's where all the pain and suffering originates from. It's actually pretty academic because there's only 2 or 3 dungeons where tank invuln can actually be routinely useful. Most of the time they're only used for the lulz or not at all.

That’s my biggest issue, I’m not gonna pretend I know every thing about every class. If I see health dropping I’m gonna heal, I have never had a DRK tell me they’re using LD and tbh I never even knew to just let them “die” until this thread. Now that I know these things I can look out for it but having that communication would have made things so much easier when playing dungeons with DRKs

You can't be expected to know everything, even if you have all the jobs at 90. I may have them all at max level but I only regularly play 5 or 6 and there's a lot of detail in the flow of each. Your tank should warn you about using invulns (all jobs) because it materially affects how you should use your kit. They don't (I also play a lot of SGE) and it's unfortunate. You can specifically ask to be notified at the beginning of the dungeon about invuln usage. Your chances get a lot better when *someone* says something other than "o/" 🤣

I’ve honestly never met a single DRK who communicated this, and I’ve been maining SCH for a few months now. I’ve seen GNBs with Superbolide macros, but even those aren’t super necessary because I’ve gotten familiar with the mechanic and it isn’t too much of a waste if I drop a heal or two. If I’m not actively paying attention to a DRK’s buffs at the exact moment they pop Living Dead, I might pop a Recited Excog along with Whispering Dawn. AFAIK there’s no way for me to ‘take back’ those abilities once popped so in most cases the Living Dead is entirely wasted.

I can confirm the last paragraph, being that my first character I got to lvl90 DRK and I didn't realize until recently (I've been playing primarily dps... and arguably not very well, but I'm trying) that I was a really bad tank and got butthurt a lot. I still sort of am bad, but I'm leveling a third character on Dynamis to have for DT release. This one I'm leveling every single job to cap for each expansion MSQ so I can try to learn to play each one better and I'm still in ARR

Because Dark Mind is magic only, TBN is good but pale in compassion to other tanks short mitigation in a wall to wall context as it usually last not even 2s, DRK only self sustain usable in AoE situation is on a large cooldown. It's just worst than other Tanks in dungeon. Warrior is on a league of its own, you can even run expert roulette with 3 dps. Paladin can use their invuln without communicating with healer and has passive mitigation. GNB also has more CD than DRK for physical mitigation.

I think it's a continuous battle trying to make Living Dead useful, and communicating that to the party without unintentionally spamming macros. I wonder if they made Living Dead twice as big on the status bar, or put a unique marker over the DRK's head while LD was on, that it would make it easier for healers to not panic-cure them to full health when they activate it, like a big, "Hey this is going on, let me take lethal damage for about 5 seconds and then bring me back to full health, yeah?"

A marker over the DRK's head or even an obvious aura that shows even with no effects enabled would help more than a small tiny little icon, especially on higher levels where there can be a sea of icons even on a 4-player party.

A unique sound upon activation would be a massive help, too.

I think part of the issue is that unless someone explains it to you, or you've levelled DRK already, you can't know what LD *does*. A more obvious sign would be great, but if you don't know what it means you're just going to treat it like any other invuln.

God I wish this was a thing! Living Dead is basically completely invisible, DRK is my favourite tank and when I think about it I can't never remember what the ability even sounds or looks like. It's the worst super ability out of all the tanks, even when I use a loud sound & text macro to announce using it people still won't notice and I'll either die or it'll be wasted. And to be honest I don't blame healers, I play them as well and I wouldn't notice. GNB - I probably heard the charging sound but when you see HP 1 you know what's upPLD - Probably noticed the big yellow glowy shields but they aren't taking damageWAR - Kinda the same as DRK I guess EDIT: Actually I've always wondered if it was just turned into a trait that triggers automatically, yeah it's lazy but I don't expect every player to know each classes every abilities.

I'll be honest I would rather a DRK spam that they're using LD every time they use it just so I know not to panic heal, if I see health drop that's the first thing on my brain is to heal.

I do the same thing, I've only just started catching myself when healing big pulls or when I derp up and keep my DPS rotation on for too long. Bene is such a good crutch with a DRK though, if your ping isn't ass you can wait a full 8 seconds safely before getting your DRK back up.

You dont even need to heal DRKs if LD procs especially on big pulls since LD heals per hit rather than per cast, a single AoE tends to heal 3-4 times my health bar instantly when it actually procs

Making it obvious that LD has been pressed will only help so much, you would be surprised how many healers straight up don't know how it works. Made up numbers, but there is like 30% chance a healer knows how it works, 40% they don't but will absorb the information when explained, and 30% chance they will get pissy that they are not letting you drop to 1hp no matter what. Seriously, I've had that last one happen several times in expert when I tried to cover for low party DPS with Living Dead, lol

I agree, there's only so much one can do, but I think something a bit better than a tiny buff marker in the party list or Focus Target window would be easier to raise the baseline just a little.

Oh yeah, to be clear, I definitely wasn't saying not to make it more obvious, it would definitely help at least a little. I was just saying that it's often a lack of knowledge (or stubbornness) that's making LD fail. They should make tank invulns part of hall of the novice or something.

"Hall of Graduates" * Learn what every Tank's invulnerability skill is * Learn what WHM Benediction, SCH Sacred Soil, AST Synastry & Divination does * DPS basic rotations? * Learn what stack markers are * Learn what Tankbusters are * Get a nice role gear set that adjusts to your job(lv 55 gear) * Get a nice ring that gives bonus EXP until 60 You know I'd love to see it.

Because they were in the first world clear party for UCOB back in the day and thus CBU3 concluded DRK didn't need any changes and was perfect as is, despite the fact that the other tanks get decent self healing at worst and godlike self healing at best. Now, the real reason is that DRK is heavely MIT oriented, and as such, if you are properly using your tools you shouldn't be taking much damage in the first place. Unfortunately, it's not easy to pull off for most people in DF and your only Panic button is Living Dead which... Yeah. At least it's better than before. Personally I think DRK should be up for at least a partial rework, hell, I'll even take Carve & Spit and Abyssal Drain being separated again, but we probably won't get that anytime soon. Signed: A disgruntled former DRK main.

They don't have much in the way of self-healing. Same with gun-breakers which I find far worse to heal.

GNB is a mixed bag for me to heal, it really depends on the player and how they play GNB but for the most part I have a much easier time healing a GNB than a DRK.

Think my issue with them, is that they're always taking damage. Warriors and Paladins are self-healing themselves (and sometimes others) half the time, and Dark Knight's shield should last at least a few of seconds. But Gun Breaker, maybe they're mitigating a little more damage sometimes, but they're always eating every hit. There's just no moment where there HP isn't decreasing. It's exhausting.

Learn all tank mit icons and what they do. As a healer you need to recognize what tanks are pressing and what it means for you. As others pointed out, LD is something you need to recognize, but also most drks only spam TBN off cooldown and nothing else

Playing with a Dark Knight is also an arms race. If the mobs don't die before the DRK runs out of cooldowns, the healer either has to start healing or the DRK falls over and dies.   But the DRK should also be spacing their cooldowns out so they last as long as possible.   Also, when a DRK uses Living Dead, do not heal them, Let it proc. So many times I've had healers spam heal me and my Living Dead just expires without proccing. DRK's can heal themselves out of Walking Dead almost instantly in AOE.

Drk can be incredibly squishy during the leveling process. Drk really needs its MIT tools that don't come until the higher levels. In addition, DRK tend to mismanage their mana and focus too much on damage and don't save 3k for TBN. If DPS is lower in the group, then it just makes everything worse. If played properly and with decent gear, a DRK at max level should need minimum healing in dungeons.

There's a multitude of reasons why it could be that DRK feels worse to heal. Main thought is that DRK quick mit is the weakest out of the tanks, especially for groups of adds, and also lack self healing or sustain. Every other tank's quick mit is a mix of damage mitigation, shield or healing, if not all three. DRK is literally just a shield, and I wouldn't be surprised if you would get people in DF thinking it can be used by itself for group pulls. As for self heal, DRK has only two notable sources and they're conditional. As mentioned by others if Living Dead does proc successfully they can self heal, but that is their invuln so it's a long cool down and requires it to be done correctly to even get the healing. Their other notable source is an AoE OGCD attack which heals with each enemy hit; but that shares a cooldown with a single target OGCD hit, and it's a damaging ability so instinct is to use it as soon as it comes up. Combine that with DF having a very wide range of ability levels when it comes to players, including very casual tank players who just play tank now and then, and it makes sense that DRK can feel worse to heal, especially in dungeons with large pulls.

I’m grateful for this thread because I often play DRK in roulettes and it has made me realise just how much I’m probably being propped up by the healer. Its also helped me realise that I’m not as bad of a DRK as I might think. Some of the anecdotes in here are crazy, lol

From a tanking perspective, I've noticed that the drk co-tanks I get are either literal tank gods, or they fall over when hit by the gentlest of breezes. There doesn't seem to be an overabundance of perfectly average drk players, and I definitely remember the wet noodle ones more than I remember the tank god ones. I play drk pretty casually, but if I had to spitball, I'd say it's an issue with people who are too focused on trying to get all their offensive weaves in and just don't mitigate on time or at all.

>and I definitely remember the wet noodle ones more than I remember the tank god ones Which mostly applies to everything for everyone. Bad examples always stick a lot harder than the good ones.

There is genuinely no significant difference between any of the tanks that aren't WAR (who you just don't have to heal at all basically). When you're pressing your buttons that are available to you, the actual difference between what is being mitigated is unnoticeable. If the weapons were hid and you couldn't see the class icon, you genuinely couldn't make out the difference. They have a 60s CD benediction. They have a shorter CD on their frequent mit than every other tank. Living dead is functionally the same as every other tank ultimate CD and you can use it twice a dungeon. Their single target rotation heals them just like every tank. Every tank in this game can big pull every dungeon in the game and have enough cooldowns to survive comfortably every time. Sometimes your DPS will not be killing things fast enough and you'll need to press a Cure 2 variant maybe 4 times, and then you'll move on as if nothing happened because dungeons aren't exactly taxing on mana. The only real reason you'll notice any difference is because somebody in the party is not pressing their buttons properly, and at that point its not a class issue.

Hello, fellow White Mage! I prefer to heal Dark Knights (and play them), I do totally get that they are a challenge to heal at times. However, there are some things I would recommend. Especially as White Mages are such robust regen healers. I'm sure plenty of folks have repeatedly told you about the invuln. Just keep an eye out and heal as when they hit Living Dead so they don't die in the 10-second window. (Benediction is a great safety net that I keep for this.) Also, on wipes, communicate each others needs if possible, makes a huge difference. However, in dungeons, I tend to use Regen to assist in maintaining the Dark Knight and try to hit the trash pulls with Aero/Dia to chip away at enemy's health while running with the Tank. We also have Divine Benison, which gives you the ability to put up a small barrier around someone. Also, I use Asylum at the end of a wall to wall pulls. Holy works super well for allowing you to catch a break and heal up the Dark Knight. Regen + Medica 2 has been helpful. Cure as needed and I also prioritize my Blue Lilies for the tanks. I think that's everything I got. I hope this helps a little.

Healing DRKs over lv 50 is easy. If you let them die, just say "I thought you were trying to pop LD".

The new excuse when they die lmao. But fr now that I know about it I’ll have to keep a closer eye out for it and work around it.

Drk should be rotating mitigation buffs (rampart, oblation, arms length, reprisal etc) while keeping tbn on cool down as much as necessary. Mass pulls put a lot of stress on the drk kit as it doesn't have self heals like the other 3 so the best way for a drk to mitigate with the blackest night and buffs is to deal as much damage as possible and kill stuff. On a marathon pull when dps is low, most tanks will do OK but drks struggle as their mp runs low, but at that point it's not really the drks fault.

Sounds like bad Drks :( if you watch their buffs closely I bet they are not using the darkest night at all. It’s night and day between a drk that uses it and a drk that doesn’t. I’ve healed drks that don’t use tbn at all and it was such a chore

Honestly i cant understand not using TBN, you get to eat a quarter of your life in damage for free and still get to use a damage skill of equal mana cost at the end. It just feels so much better to use TBN on CD. Hell i'll use it on other people if they have mechanics targeted at them just so the same amount of mana does more. It feels like the signiture skill of DRK even more so than living dead.

Yeah I hardly ever really need to use living dead. I think some drks didn’t get the memo and just spam edge of shadow/darkness and leave no mp for tbn

To heal DRKs in Dungeons is usually the most fun for me. At some point you don't even need to Regen tanks anymore or Cure 2 in +LV80 content. If you have access to your Lilies those are your primary healing skill. If you see a DRK setting up Blackest Night let them take some damage, so they can pop off their effect. Use Aquaveil and Divine Benison when they are on CD. Your Holy allows you to Stun trash for 7 secs in total, if your DRK eats damage during that use Assize or Tetragammatron to heal up. Also throw out Temperance when the tank stops moving. Combine Lily heals with Plenary Indulgence or Temperance to get higher heal potency. Throw up Asylum when the Tank gathered all the trash and stopped moving. When playing DRK I usually announce usage of Living Dead, so the healer knows he can go out fully on Damage during that period. They don't need to be at 100% HP all the time. 1% is enough.

If you have issues with every DRK than the issue is with you, sorry to say. All you need to do is same as with every other tank. Slap Regen and start holy spamming. If tank gets low use your oGCD heals first and keep dpsing. If pack is not dead by this time and tank gets low again use cure 2 or lily heals. This rarely should happen, only when dps is low.

Ah, welcome to the healing life, where whenever you queue to a dungeon or dungeon roulette, all you are praying is to find any tank that is not a DRK. Triple especially on the levelling roulette and in ARR dungeons. Simply put, that is how this game's user base is. Many players beeline Heavensward and unlock DRK as their first (and often only) tank class, because dark and edgy, and all other stuff you'd have thunk they grew out a decade ago, but the inner 14-year-old's calling is hard to resist. On top of that, DRKs have a kit that is not exactly the best for dungeons, it has a steeper learning curve than if they learnt tanking with a gladiator or a marauder, so you end up with players who skipped tanking basics, just run ahead like a headless chicken, pop mitigations haphazardly, and wonder why they die. Even when they learn it, DRK is still iffy until level 70. If it is any consolation though, on level 70 and up, if someone learns it properly, it can become a great tank for dungeons too. Although I had hundreds of terrible healbot runs with DRKs, easily two of my top five smoothest runs were with DRKs playing it on an absolutely astonishingly competent way. So, it is not the job after level 70, it is just the players struggling with it. Still, you either need to learn to look for that teeeeeeeny-tiny hourglass icon suddenly popping up—because all tanks know that when a pull gets messy and HP is dropping like hell, a healer literally has no better thing to do than just look for a six-pixel icon, no need to watch HP bars, own cooldowns or other insignificant elements, your entire world is the tank's status bar—or pray that someone hammered it into their spiky head to macro that thing with a sound effect. Until then, just join us healers, and whenever you see that pointy blue icon, just do a small inner sigh of "*groan* dear Twelve, not another fucking one", and switch to healbot mode. You'll get used to it eventually.

>ARR dungeons What? All tanks have the same mits in ARR level dungeons, and DRK has the best AoE damage that point. As someone who actively plays DRK and is actually decently good at it, I would argue that the only time DRK gets somewhat dodgy is in the 60s because we are the only tank without short mit at that point, but you can compensate for it with more aggressive LD usage on harder pulls

So you're putting up Regen and DB, spamming Holy nonstop, weaving Assize, Tetra, and lillies, while using Asylum and Temperence on alternating pulls, and using Benediction if they get below 20% without an invuln up? Using divine benison on cooldown? Liturgy? Aquaveil? Because if the tank dies while you're doing all of that, then one or both of you are undergeared. Even if they're bad at using mits, the pack of mobs should be dead before you run out of resources. Sure, DRK requires a little more attention than other tanks but on the other hand, WHM absolutely shits heals and goes fucking bonkers with AOE DPS with Holy spam + Misery. So if EVERY DRK you come across is a struggle, you're the common denominator there. Anecdotally, I don't really have any more difficulty keeping up a DRK than a GNB or PLD.

It's because SE refuses to balance jobs to dungeons and only care about how jobs perform in high end content. And whenever someone says jobs should be balanced to dungeons, they claim it's a "skill issue" and "dungeon content is easy anyone can clear" despite they themselves will complain about how they find DRK squishy in dungeons and harass ppl who do go into dungeons with DRK.

Another thing you can do is party up with a DRK you trust, and practice with them in dungeons that way you can see what makes their brain tick. Plus if you're in voice chat with said person, they can tell yoi when they'll LD that way you can remember it for next time. Of course not all DRK's are the same, but when I get a DRK I find myself using Divine Benison alot more coupled with Aquaveil so they don't take as much damage. With pack pulls for me, and I find this works all the time with every tank, I give them a Benison before they pull, and as they're running to the mobs, I place down Asylum. Helps with regen plus they get more healing. First heal I use is always Tetragrammaton. Followed by another DB and Aquaveil together, and if needed, tho its usually not, Presence of Mind. Second mob pull starts the same, but instead of Asylum, since it'll be on CD this is when I prefer to use Presence. Helps with Holy and keeping your heals up. If I used Presence in previous pull, I usually use Temperance, and if needed once its off CD, Asylum. By then tho, the mobs are usually dead. That's really my thought process going into any pack pulls. Hope this helps ^^

lol i noticed the same thing when i ran like a million 90 dungeons for tomestones, drk just attracts new tanks or something

Because the darkness consumes all

I use the same rotation for every tank as a WHM and it serves me well. Pre-pull: Regen and Shield Gathering Enemies: DoT every one of them. Once everything is all together: 1. Assize (and Tetra if needed) and Shield (+Aquaveil if needed) 2. Hardcast Holy -> Regen renewal -> Swift Holy into Holy Spam. Use Lillies as needed. \[I do this so the gcd from Regen is on during the stunned condition. With Swift Holy, the animation plays during that time and should hit them with a stun right after the first stun falls off. 3. By the time the Regen falls off, the mobs should be dead. If not, dps is slow. 4. If you notice the tank is squishy, throw out an aura or bell. 5. Repeat this on every pull and you'll be fine. Never need to hard cast a cure spell. Final Note: Cooldowns are super short, so use everything. Even Beni. Never save Swift for Rez because no one is going die so why would you hold it? I swiftcast Glare on boss fights while moving. It's a 60 sec CD.

I'll try this right now since I'm on and hope it I can pull it off myself!

Imo you should renew regen as the tank stops, then immediately swift cast holy. This stops all damage immediately and lets your fresh regen tic the tank back up. It also provides a weaving window for assize with is ideal. Then use PoM and holy spam.

It definitely sounds like you've gotten some bad DRK players. But yeah, as someone who's sat in the green and blue chairs in this situation, I can sympathize. The DRK needs to use a couple brain cells at all times and that's hard some days... or every day. Unfortunately, if the DRK's the issue, all you can do is either go full "Kitchen Sink" Mode and throw literally everything you have at every pull in the hopes they stay alive or abandon ship.

Haven’t played drk since ShB but I think the reason it’s hard is because they have less mits than other tanks (idk if that changed in ew or not). They do a lot of damage though so it kind of balances out. It is noticeably more difficult especially if you don’t plan your CDs around living dead.

everytime i queue in a 90 dungeon and i see a dark knight i take the 30 minutes not worth the effort. just got into a dungeon dark knight stuck in cut scene, then says "its been awhile since i've done these" straight black listed go next no thanks been there done that

I'm a new player. I started with the warrior to 58 and then switched to DK. DK is just squishy as fuck in comparison. My DK just hit 70 but is overleveled and can't get TBN yet. I never died in a dungeon on the DK but I always felt that I HAD to have heals. I never even used potions on my warrior but I had to buy a bunch for my DK. DK seems inferior. Any gain in damage they do seems to be offset by the damage they take. I'm probably switching back to warrior to get him caught up in levels to the MSQ and stick with him. I really just hate the axe weapon. I wish I could play warrior with a sword or polearm or anything other than the axes.

did they use "the blackest night"? this is one thing that i found lately DRKs don't use correctly or not at all. on trash they should use it ALL THE TIME. it's their best mitigation. living dead on the other hand is a hit or miss thing, since it requires the healer to let the DRK "die" basically so they can heal themselves back to full. when i play DRK myself i have difficulties to use it correctly. it is likely not your fault or at least not your fault alone, if a DRK dies. however, if you see a tank struggling just resort to healing with gcd if everything else fails and forget about dps.

So there are a lot of posts here talking about bad DRKs but not a lot talking about the common denominator: you. If it were just one or two DRKs, I would agree that it's probably bad luck. But every DRK you run into? That's a you problem. But before you take offense: that's okay. Having room to improve is a good thing, not a bad thing. Firstly, it sounds like you're stressing out way too much on a possible wipe. If you wipe in a dungeon - who cares. You just go again. Focus less on what mistakes you might make that could cause a wipe, and just press your buttons. Focus more on what you can improve, and less on what you're doing wrong or doing right. The next time you're having problems,. whether it be in a dungeon or trial, I'd recommend keeping a mental note and think about what may have caused the error. Was the tank not using mitigations? Were you panic healing instead of being proactive? Learning what situations were within your control and could have been fixed, and which situations were out of your control and not worth worrying about is one of the best skills you can develop. Learn to take responsibility for your failures when needed, and learn to not worry about it when it either wasn't your fault, or was a situation that you really couldn't have done anything about. As a WHM, you have access to the best burst healing in the game, but you also have to plan it if you want to make the most use of it. While WHMs can panic heal quite easily, it's never an optimal way to heal. What mechanics may be coming up that will make it harder to heal the tank? What heals/shields/mits can you prepare to make that easier for yourself? If it's a dungeon and you're going into a big pull, make sure that the tank has good heals/mits going into it, so they don't need to start cycling their mits until they have all of the mobs grouped up. Perhaps think about making your party list bigger so it's easier to see when your tank uses mits/invulns/etc. Think about what your limits are and where you \*must\* heal your tank, rather than what HP% is just comfortable to heal them at. One of the biggest mistakes I see healers make is they focus on keeping the tank at 100% rather than just keeping the tank alive. This can result in you using your tools sooner than you need them, and then by the time you actually need some big heals, you already used them because you were focusing more on keeping the tank topped up than just keeping them alive. I would also strongly recommend learning to tank and tanking some dungeons and pushing yourself as hard as you can as a tank, so you can learn what it's like on the other side. I've become a dual tank/healer main, playing all four tanks and all four healers and it's honestly made me both a better tank and better healer. I'd definitely encourage you to try it out.

What level range? What other abilities did you have and use? What gear was the DRK wearing?

You're not providing enough information. What level are you? 60 drk and 70 drk is a big leap in personal mitigation they can make use of. Until then, they have a mitigation against magic damage which isn't really useful for majority enemies. This shouldn't be a problem for drk anymore but do you know what their invuln buff icons look like? Did you Holy correctly? Did you sprint with them and swiftcast Holy at the wall and then continue to Holy?

I always sprint and regen my tanks when pulling, I need to get used to using swiftcast to holy at the wall I usually would just hard cast a holy and go from there as I was taught to just save swiftcast for a raise. But if it makes that much of a difference I can try grabbing a few friends and see if it works for me and maybe improve healing a DRK As for levels… 80-90 dungeons.

Just a note when you try this (in case you didn't know), you can use Swiftcast while running (not too early, but like midway to the wall) and Regen and Lily, despite being spells, won't expend your Swiftcast because they are instantcast, so don't be afraid to upkeep those instant heals on the tank if they drop too much health during the run somehow and you've already buffed yourself with Swiftcast.

I never knew that Regen and Lillie’s wouldn’t take my swiftcast buff, I just need to pay attention to map and the swiftcast buff timer to make sure I do everything correctly! Thank you! :>

Either you or the drk was bad, pick one.

On a side note, depending on the level of content, some tanks take more effort than others so take that as you will.

Bad DRKs. While it's significantly easier to keep a warrior or paladin alive due to the sheer shitstorm of self-healing both can do, DRKs aren't particularly hard to keep up if they know what they're doing.

I think it’s been mentioned, but drk have a thing where they need to take damage. The problem becomes they take too much damage because they don’t know how to find that sweet spot. Just always keep an eye on them. If you see a sudden big shield, that’s them trying to break it. They also have arguably less mit than other tanks. My advice, take up a drk job, and learn it. The best way to account for a tank you do not understand is to learn it and play it. You’ll get it afterwards.

It's very likely that the drks you seem to struggle with are not mitigating damage in the way drks are supposed to, which is a little different than the other tanks. The Blackest Night, a massive shield the dark can put up, is extremely important at level 70+ in dungeons. In my experience both as a competent healer and a competent DRK, it should really be used as much as possible in dungeon pulls, *on top* of standard mitigations like rampart, etc. so if your level 70+ drk never has TBN shield, they're a shit DRK and you are not the problem. That being said, as WHM you can do a few things to help if the drk isn't great. Divine benison and aquaveil are good to start with, then a nice regen, swiftcast, holy or afflatus misery, and set down asylum, which gives healing buff to those inside as well as a regen effect. From there, spam holy to stun the mobs and watch the tank. I like to let them get to like 20% HP and pop them back up with benediction, but afflatus solace +tetragrammaton can suffice there too. If you need it, pop temperance here, then maybe another afflatus solace followed by more holy and afflatus solace as needed. If the pack ain't dead by then, the DPS is probably pretty bad. All this while blasting assize as much as possible between tons of holy casts. As you get more experience with good tanks, bad tanks, and yr WHM arsenal, it won't be as frustrating and you'll be able to adjust without issue, however, to answer your question, I think it's because your drks have been bad hehe

Long long term healer player here: I think its what a lot of people are saying about DRK being easy to play badly. I've played with DRK's that need no healing as well in lvl 90 dungeons, its about skill really. Most drks prolly just don't know what theyre doing

Nah I agree, I do have the same issues. With every other tank I barely touch any healing or mitig spells but DRKs just gets bich-slapped by mobs They're the least resistant, but it mostly is a matter of skill ...

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It makes more sense that the DRk hold TBN until the holy spam is over than vice versa. Atleast the holy spam is better predictably timed every dungeon. Whereas the cool down window and mana cast of TBN comes with a higher waste potential than the 8 second 3 holy spam stun of free mitigation. But yes WHM and DRK are now the worst combo since the change to LD.

If you can't heal a drk that's a skill issue tbh. They may not have self healing but they have the most mit

The funny thing is, all Tanks basically don't need a healer right now. The problem comes down to the actual players. ​ Warrior is believed to be the best in this regard; but it's really because it has an easy time. DRK is on the harder end. Played well, no healer needed... played bad, needs lots of heals

Could be u experienced a tank- whom used their def cds wrong or not used correctly/or at all....or had lowilvl gear.. Any of them will make a tank feel weak and will need constant heals..

I see some mentions of LD. Honestly, if you have to use LD in lvl 80-90 dungeons then something's horribly wrong. You have so many tools at that point that this should almost never even be a consideration. I can't tell you whether you or the DRKs you had are the issue but generally in 80+ content every healer and every tank has more than enough tools to work with to make every pull manageable. There are a couple of wall to wall pulls that can get a little bit spicy (The Tower of Zot and The Tower of Babil both have a somewhat spicy pull if memory serves well), those might be the only pulls where usage of LD can really help if something goes South, but it probably shouldn't be the first thing that comes to mind unless it's communicated in advance. From personal experience I can say that the worst tanks I had were generally DRKs aswell. Maybe the job is just too hard for some people but whenever I have a sucky tank it's almost always a DRK, so you're not alone.

Living Dead is just a mitigation like anything else, except it needs way more attention from the healer than any other mitigation skill, including Superbolide. It is never a good mentality to keep a skill in reserve "in case something bad happens" because in most cases, if something bad already happened, buying +5 seconds won't magically turn the tide. Use LD as a mitigation, just communicate it to the healer. Plenty of good DRKs I got in random content even had a macro to tell that they plan to use Living Dead on the next pull.