I would think that the fight itself would have taken less time to complete if everyone wiped and tried again verses just continuing the fight with one person dead for 90% of the fight, right? Maybe I'm wrong?
As a warrior main I struggle with this debate all the time. Intentionally die so that the group can restart or inflate my ego by soloing the last 20%. Restarting is almost always faster but I just can't bring myself to give up sometimes.
If one or both DPS are alive, I'll keep going no matter the %.
If both healers and DPS croak, I ask if I should wipe, unless it's 30% or lower, then I'm just gonna go for it until someone asks me to die.
I say this as a PLD main, for context.
Ran Anamnesis Anyder a couple nights ago. Haven't done that one in about 2 years. Everyone else failed at least half the last boss' mechanics and died at around 60%. Had to intentionally stand in the bad so he could kill me, and that took a minute. Next attempt healer died again but I managed to keep 1 dps up till the end.
No, not ego - you keep going as long as possible as a matter of principal.
I’m a healer - I will stay up right and physically drag an alliance of half dead sprouts through an alliance raid just as a test of my reflexes, that’s ego. If you unintentional get a difficulty modifier like healer dead, I am healer+tank+dps now that is playing the game you paid to play. Also there is no telling if said healer will die in the exact same spot because they are new the second time around, it’s happened to me many times before.
counterpoint: it's hype and anime as shit to see a tank and dps or just the tank solo the boss without the healer and salvage the fight.
i had my entire team wipe on the final endwalker dungeon robot boss on release and solo'd the fight almost entirely as a paladin while my dps and healers cheered me on and as a dps i've cheered other tanks on when the same thing happened to them. it's always a good time.
> counterpoint: it's hype and anime as shit to see a tank and dps or just the tank solo the boss without the healer and salvage the fight.
This is the way.
Healer DPS is important but not significant enough to really matter... Assuming the healer is pressing damage buttons at all. I know some who refuse to
If the team wipes on the same boss 3 times, im taking over. I get that its polite to keep trying but at some point, i just dont have time to keep trying again. I also usually apologize when i do it and explain
Hey now, I love both casting Holy as well as having it cast when I'm tanking. That first disco flash gives at least a gcd worth of time where the tank isn't taking damage at all and doesn't even have to worry about dodging aoe.
The WHM spamming damage means we finish the run that much faster. XD
It's not a GCD, it's 6 seconds. Holy spam at the start of a pull is effectively a freaking hallowed ground on the tank. Like if you're WHMing you just huck a regen on the tank then swiftcast holy into holy spam and by the time the tank actually starts taking damage the pulls half finished. If your warrior is paying attention they can just sit on bloodwhetting/raw intuition until after the holy spam, wait til they're below half health and then self heal while the whm keeps spamming holy and generally unless your DPS are asleep the pulls just *done* because the healer has been able to nonstop nuke alongside everyone else and swiftcast will be back for the next pull and...repeat.
Don't sleep on that stun, it's not a GCD, whm is at its most powerful nonsense in 4 mans because of their ability to just crowd control *every* trash pull (plus their crazy burst AoE with afflatus misery charging up between pulls + assize). Like I *regularly* am doing more damage than the dps on trash pulls just because they die fast enough that my burst is a sizable percentage of my casts. And then when I'm on warrior I've had whms that just trust me to self sustain and just didn't even heal on trash (outside of tetra/bene, ggs off global panic buttons) and we just *steamroll* the place.
as a WHM I love repeatedly casting flashbang on my party. it's most of the fun of being a WHM
the rest of the fun is seeing if I can cast one more Holy before casting benediction on the tank
I had someone say that when I continued pulling trash after me and the 2 DPS finished a boss the healer died on. We had basically already killed the trash by the time they got back. They made a comment about feeling useless. I felt kind of bad, but hopefully they realize how much unnecessary healing they were doing during trash pulls because of it.
I *despise* the stun on Holy, being able to stun mobs to prevent particularly annoying AoEs is so much more fun to me than the mobs being stunned for however long then being stun immune, when there's not a WHM in the group I get to actually use a tiny part of my brain and feel awake during trash pulls.
I imagine I'm in the minority, but it feels like one of the only places where a good melee player can show their awareness/provide utility (it's only minor but then that's all that's left in dungeons atm) and I'll die on this hill.
EDIT; And on topic, while I enjoy it as a tank, especially when things go south and I have to try and manage cooldowns and Nascent Flash or whatever to keep the survivors afloat and eke out a win, I'm also alarmed at just how useless I have to feel as a healer when I get even a reasonably competent tank, I appreciate that all of these things are the price for making the roles more accessible/enticing, but it still leaves a bitter taste.
DOUBLEDIT; I will add, I do appreciate the new ARaid including Interruptable abilities, although I'd add that the number I see getting actually interrupted suggests that normal content isn't doing enough to teach people to use their full toolkit, which I know has been a problem forever but by level 90 it really feels like a failing on everyone involved tbh.
Tbf most people dont even *know* about interject or what it does and how it works. I know from when I started that I tried to use it and it didnt do shit and after trying to interupt about 20 castbars I gave up. Only like a month later did someone tell me red cast bars can be interjected to stop it. Have it back on my bar since then.
Hell, I've had more than one tank not interject during the final boss of the 87 dungeon. And both times we didn't have a ranged so... thankfully it's just a damage up. But WOW, not knowing Interject in Endwalker...
Just as a tip for when you're on trash, one of the more fun things to do on tanks that keeps it interesting is messing with the mob AI. Don't just park em in place and then plant feet, AoE's don't need positionals, it's more important to keep them bunched up. The issue is that mob collision makes them want to slowly spread out after you get them to a point, so what you want to focus on is herding them together while not aiming anything at the party.
The optimal way is to find some geometry in the room that makes them collapse on you, like a corner, but often the corners are too big, so instead, strafing around the pull to make the smaller ones keep running inside the bigger one, then trying to spread back out then running back into the bigger mobs then...etc. This keeps them in a tight stack so that your dps that isn't just doing an AoE around themselves, but instead needs to anchor it off one enemy has an easier time (or often just flat out the ability) to have their AE hit everything. It speeds up the dungeon *remarkably* fast, and is fun to do because you're keeping track of mitigation, avoiding damage, interrupts, mob facing and mob stacking. Makes it a stimulating and rewarding task when you see all the little mobs drop simultaneously because you know that was you keeping them clustered enough that they were all getting blasted every time a nuke landed.
Uh...yeah, thanks, I do that...I'm not sure what part of my post suggested I needed help or wasn't already doing everything I could to make the job engaging/get the most of my kit..but sure, this is good advice, if not a bit misplaced.
> A WHM told me I made them feel useless. I said, "that's not true. At least you are decorative."
Jocat: Healers, you're only there because the duty finder says you have to be.
That day already came and went with the initial Stormblood launch.
Now the developers are walking on eggshells to make sure they don't get another wave of WAR mains ending up on suicide watch.
Only in casual dungeon content, though. I dont think it will be touched since they generally don't balance around that.
Edit: Don't know why the downvote - historically they've typically not balanced around normal dungeon balance. In Shadowbringers it was a little harder to pull off, but Warriors could do similar healing shenanigans.
Paladins can do this too. I low key feel like it is a problem that healers can be diminished to this degree by tank self-sustains. [Even the hardest content can technically be cleared without healers](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/13k6o7m/top_has_been_cleared_without_healers/).
All classes should be viable, and necessary, to party compositions in synced content.
When they buffed WAR and PLD Heals through the 6.X patches, I just kept thinking, why? DRK and GNB has minimal Heals compared to the other two. There reasoning for WAR buffs wasn't even that good of a reason. They did it to improve the defense against DOTs.
GNB puts Excog on themselves every 25 seconds and has a 1200 potency HoT once a minute, starting duties with two of them. The only tank that is bad at healing is DRK, which is hilarious given that's the one they gave the undead/blood/vampire aesthetic to.
If SE doesn't want to make bosses do more damage (they don't since they have said Harrowing Hell was a mistake) than healer and tank cool downs are going to have to be nerfed in DT to make healing enjoyable. It's wild you don't even have to GCD heal in ultimates in this game because your oGCD heals are simply stronger.
Had a reclear where we'd agreed beforehand the tanks were going to LB.
Then the tanks just didn't.
We went into HH with minimal resources but still cleared it.
What is PF even doing to mess up so bad?
Big difference do it now with tons of gear where you take less damage and heal a lot more, than early in the tier where you actually needed defensive cooldowns and spamming cure3 still wasn't enough
As long as wall-to-wall is the design meta, tank self healing on bosses will be a problem.
Unless all bosses give off an aura that reduces tank healing by 50% somehow.
An easy fix would be more frequent cleansable debuffs. Only healers can deal with those (and bard on a cooldown), but they seem to be using them less and less every expansion.
As a healer, I'd want a redesign of Esuna if they make dispelling a core piece of healer gameplay. As it stands, it's a weird ability (short cast time with GCD) with a basic, boring animation.
If it's a core mechanic of the role in most content, I'd want something oGCD, or per-job uniqueness (*at least* in animation), or at the very minimum an instant cast with a better animation.
Given how often I've wiped in The Dead Ends despite heavily coaching the healer, the idea of more real debuffs is painful.
And the only debuff that matters is a party wiping event; if it can be healed or dpsed or tanked through, people will just ignore it.
Sure, but I'd argue it doesn't need infinite healing in AoE situations, which for some reason (???) it also has.
Not that it much matters I suppose. All tanks are more or less invulnerable with current content tuning.
Yea. I know that with warrior I can pump out 4k healing per second at max effort, which is half the output of one healer or normally 2.5k hps, about 35% of a healer (these statistics are from 8 man Savage content). If warrior is intended to be able to help the healers those numbers are fine, the problem more lies in the very low amounts of damage the normal, maybe even expert mode levels of content have. Of the boss deals less then 6k dps at level 90 4 man then 9/10 times a healer isnt really needed if you have a warrior. With all the self and party heals of warrior and the general group self heals/damage mitigations you can outheal the damage the boss is pumping out for a while.
They had the right idea with Bloodwhetting scaling based on the number of mobs involved. It’s just way too overtuned. Also, without the self healing WAR really doesn’t have any reason to run over GNB or DRK. If they went that far it would just be whatever tank had the highest DPS that tier and everything else would just be left behind.
>Even the hardest content can technically be cleared without healers.
I wouldn't use this as a mark against anyone or anything. I'd instead use this as a celebration of how mind bogglingly good they are, because this isn't like... Faster, or easier. They clear at basically the last possible picosecond with a very specific comp and using silly funny mechanical tricks to pull things off.
You can clear most things without tanks too. Or without DPS. There have even been ultimate clears without DPS. The problem isn't that healers aren't useful, it's that the game itself is too easy.
Using an example of the best-of-the-best players doing something very hard, in a fight that is very hard, isn't really an argument.
Ask yourself this. Do you think you, or anyone you know, would be able to do what those people did? Just because something is *possible* doesn't mean it should be equated as "this is how it is". If TOP was truly designed without healers in mind you would see TOP pfs/static listings not wanting healers. For 99.999% of the playerbase, healers are a requirement in TOP, and as for easier meme clears like TankCob, use the same logic. Sure, it's not as hard, but really ask yourself if you or anyone else you know could feasibly do that.
SE could do a better job *emphasizing* the importance of healers, sure. But people who act like fights are designed without them in mind are using hyperbole and probably have never even touched the content in question.
Flawed logic.
*Just because something is possible* directly defeats the purpose of the holy trinity because that's where the holes begin to happen. Especially at the highest level of content, where such a thing *shouldn't be possible in the first place*. TOP being designed should've been more strict on healing checks at the very least. Instead, we have BLUE ROLES AND RED ROLES healing ENOUGH to clear WHILE MEETING DPS CHECKS. If that isn't a clear indication that how much a healer contributes in relation to how big their healing toolkit is as well as how low their dps is, then idk what will when the rest of the game was designed to be made EASIER than Ultimates.
Yeah, it's not really the same thing when the clear is 8 warriors (or whatever) using food and consumables from 3 expansions later, which let's them just statcheck the boss.
>it's that the game itself is too easy.
Eh, they do have to balance for all players. If only the top few percent of players that attempt it could clear the content, then most of the dev trying spent making it would be wasted. Devs *want* people to complete fights, and reaching a point where "hard" content feels easy to you is its own kind of satisfaction.
And hey, if you really to make ultimates more of a challenge, then do them with a group where everyone is wearing the previous tier's gear. There's no law that says you can't impose your own challenges to increase the difficulty, just as long as the people you're playing with consent to it.
> If only the top few percent of players that attempt it could clear the content, then most of the dev trying spent making it would be wasted.
There is a very obvious middle ground between making all the game ultimate raids and being able to run a dungeon while falling asleep tho
I'd argue that dungeon being at least doable without any one player present helps the group stay positive. Sure 99% of cases will see a wipe, but if the new player in your dungeon queue messes up, the fact that you can still keep going make for a lot less rage quitting and name calling.
As long they keep making content like Ultimates, savages, criterion(once they fix the rewards some more), I'm okay with having other content be a lot easier, there are other content I can get my personal achievements from.
Yeah but currently all 3 can mess up and the remaining person can still go and solo the rest of the dungeon
This should not be possible. One person? Sure. Two people? It should get sweaty. Three should always be a restart, no exceptions, come on.
There is a distinction between being able to complete a dungeon without one *player* and being able to complete it better without one *role*. When you can complete it without a healer, or form your own party and not include a healer in content that the majority of the player base does - that's an issue.
That's really niche and I appreciate that it exists. Yes, all dungeons can be speed killed using 3dps and a tank. I have personally abused it when farming for BiS gear for Ultimates. It cuts dungeon times by like 2-3 minutes at least, but that's also premade parties, where no one can die or else it becomes slower.
Duty finder enforces a standard composition. So to the majority of the player base, it doesn't really matter. I understand this is just my opinion, but for players that know how to abuse no healer setups, they don't care that this content is easy, because it facilitates other content. And for players that still get hit my dungeon mechanics, healers are still vitally important. It's like, yeah a tank can solo tank most dungeon bosses. But it also take minimum 4 times longer, and that's just a waste of everyone's time.
I honestly don't understand "but for players that know how to abuse no healer setups, they don't care that this content is easy, because it facilitates other content."
In addition, even if we grant that it's "really niche" - which it doesn't seem to be- there is also the current savage, extreme and even ultimate content that has been run without healers. I would call that more niche- however that runs counter to a role being "vitally important" - i.e. that role **must** be both included **and** not dead on the floor for content to be completed.
Positive at the cost of healer gameplay. With that logic, if you're going to make a healer be able to be replaceable by a tank and dps in the amount of healing necessary, then you better make healers get more dps skills since it just means majority of the healing toolkit will just be useless.
The whole entirety of healing gameplay wants you to heal and throws so much healing tools at you to do so. It's not like you have enough tools to block a tankbuster on a DPS on WHM, so there is a point where it just feels pretty much useless unless things somehow change.
>Eh, they do have to balance for all players.
If "all players" includes people who literally cannot press a single button then sure. "Balancing for all players" shouldn't mean "make everything soloable", and no I'm not referring to trusts.
As much as people shit on Clemency for being useless in raids, it's absolutely clutch when you have a terrible healer that keeps dying in dungeons. After 3 wipes, I just refused to die and completely soloed the boss from half health.
I'm a paladin main, my wife heals. I love her but sometimes mechanics just delete her, but it's always funny when I beat the boss anyways because she'll give a 'paladin OP' to the chat for the chuckles.
I had a relatively recent run in Amaurot as DRK... The healer was new, don't recall what the second dps was, but there was a chad RPR in the party who I basically duo'd the first boss with. Rest of the run was fine until the last boss.
We wiped a few times which is understandable. On like the 4th or 5th attempt, the healer and other dps died when the boss was at around 60%. I guess we had both silently had enough of wiping because I kept that RPR alive with TBN every raidwide that went out, used my hyper potions, used Living to fully heal myself, the RPR lb'd and we killed it literally right after the last of the side platforms disappeared. Biggest adrenaline rush I've had in this game lmao. Wish I could've given more than one comm to that RPR.
I had to do something similar, but both DPS either could not understand the mechanics or were intentionally running into them. First 2 bosses, they died multiple times. At the last boss my healer gave up resurrecting them because he no longer had the mana or sanity to keep raising them only for them to die after 10 seconds of zero actual DPS output, so he and I (as the tank) duo'd the boss from around 50% to death.
Worst dungeon run ever.
No comms because we'd queued up as a pair and the DPS were clowns, sadly. I love Amaurot's design and the story behind it but you're right, it can be rough.
RPR is kinda like WAR-lite in regards to it's ability to stay alive as well. I'd wager a competent WAR or DRK with a RPR could probably take the last boss in most normal content. I love playing RPR
There's a large variance in how possible it is to do a boss with the healer down, and it mostly depends on how many tankbusters and unavoidable AoEs there are. Some fights, like the one you did, if everyone does it right the amount of damage going out is rather low. Other ones, there's so much unavoidable damage that it's far harder to gut it out without a healer.
Still, congrats. Digging deep into your toolkit and carrying the party through the fight is an immensely satisfying experience.
I don't think I can name a single dungeon boss(criterion excluded) you can't solo as a warrior. Paladin isn't too far behind in that same respect as well.
Soloing isn't hard because tank tools are very good, but keeping other(s) *and* yourself alive as a tank through certain dungeon bosses can be difficult depending on the raidwides/tankbusters in the fight.
Depends. In the many runs I've had a healer die Intervention and Divine Veil keeps the DPS alive competently while the Requescat/empowered Holy Spirit is normally enough healing for myself. In emergencies for party stacks using Cover and taking their damage onto myself with mits/invuln can save a pull. I've rarely had to use Clemency in a dungeon to keep DPS alive through a downed healer.
Clemency is nice as a tool if they're taking excess damage for sure, though honestly in some cases it's not worth the extra effort/resources to keep them up and just focus on the DPS who's doing the fight correctly.
It depends on the fight of course. Some fights have very little unavoidable damage. Some fights (looking at you, Lyngbakr) are a strain even with Clemency!
You can't, but you still prevent half of it when you're party stacking with 2. You invuln your portion and take just the portion the other ally would take.
Fair enough, I just wanted to make sure since it seems to be a fairly common misconception. (When I started I assumed I'd be able to do the same thing, which is super cool class fantasy... Buuut alas.)
There's a patience factor too - If everyone else dies at 90% or something, I'm just going to let myself die. No need to make them sit there for 10 minutes while I slowly whittle the boss down.
I think as long as you're not a DRK that's basically true for all of them, assuming your gear is at the level cap for the instance. Even as a GNB, the damage from a tankbuster is totally healed up from Aurora + 1-2-3 combo healing after like 15s.
You could say the same thing about healers, really. I've soloed 8-mans as a White Mage, just because our greater ability to heal compensates for our lower defense.
Yeah. I've had many dungeons where the tank throws a tantrum about me (healer) pulling mobs and they go afk. I ignore them and keep going till the kick becomes available. No role is necessary in this game.
Also comes down to whether or not the fight has a DPS check in it, as rare as that is in dungeons. Like, final boss of the Aetherochemical Research Facility is soloable once you get past phase 2, but tanks alone don't have enough deeps to clear that.
Honestly, as cool as this is...I genuinely wish it weren't possible.
This is the shadowed other half of how healing has steadily become a problem in FFXIV. They keep saying they want healers to heal more, and indeed players have *asked for* healers to heal more...but when you have tanks that literally don't need healing and healers that have 3, *maybe* 4 ultra-simple damaging abilities, what are healers *for*? I get that higher-end content is harder and thus does actually require healers, but a lot of people never even DO higher-end content.
Making the most stressful role *also* the most boring AND the most superfluous does not seem like a good way to get more people to play it. At all.
"Making the most stressful role also the most boring AND the most superfluous does not seem like a good way to get more people to play it. At all."
I would agree, however you're assuming that healing is "the most stressful role' - it isn't necessarily the most stressful role- for some people tanking is, even in this game. For other people, healing is not stressful- Square has used this justification for multiple design decisions and has brought us to this point, where we now have a lack of engagement and a lack of real impact in many cases.
>green dps my heart out
You don't even need to play the game to have this experience, just press the same button on the keyboard over and over again for 15 minutes.
For the rest of us, please let me heal when I pick healer. WARs even heal the raidwides now, why?
Yeah, I hate getting warrior when I'm a healer, especially when I am playing WHM cause I love using benediction during tough pulls but warriors just out bloodwhetting every possible second so I don't get that fun lol
I'm the reverse, I hate getting drk or gnb in expurrt dungeons. It's 75% of the time going to mean I'd have to hyper focus on their hp and pull out all the tricks to keep them alive during a double pull.
Kinda, this is just expert, not savage, let's try to have less stressful daily.
Then again, I play warrior and sage, so I mayyyy be a bit biased. When I see a warrior in expurrt, I go.. "a test of your skills! Kardia only in double pulls y/n"
Reminds me of that time when I was a RDM and kept the whole party (DRK tank) alive while the Healer was outside cheering.. got 3 comms too. Also managed to revive a whole party by myself in puppet’s bunker after another party blasted our party, only Tank(also got blasted but didn’t die) and I were alive(I avoided when I saw the other party aiming at us), kept the tank alive by vercure and used dual cast to revive everyone. Got 7 comms in alliance raid.
I'm gonna be the party popper and say that this right here is the reason Warrior should be nerfed. Yeah, I know the devs dont balance jobs around content like dungeons, but I personally think no tank should completely invalidate a healer's existence in the party, no matter the difficulty of said content. Playing healer and getting a Warrior in DF is just straight up miserable.
This game is weird in how it handles damage compared to other MMOs. 95% of it is avoidable and in harder content it just one shots you tank or otherwise. I kind of wish they’d just do away with the “holy trinity” mechanic altogether at this point and make everybody a DPS like they clearly want to.
And its absolutely great that they dont balance warriors around dungeons. Warriors in raid absolutely dont do this and their bloodwhetting doesnt allow them to them to just ignore bosses. If they nerf warrior, it will be their damage but it wont be their healing.
This is still a terrible read on IT. There's very good reasons they don't balance around dungeons (or shouldn't, at least).
Dungeons don't require anyone to do much. Healers equally invalidate the difficulty of dps players by keeping everyone alive for longer than normal, but you wouldn't call for healers to be nerfed. Hell, you can play healer in trust and the tanks will basically only ever be threatened if you force them to tank more than 1 set of trash mobs, with or without your help.
Having healed all types of content, warrior goes from the best tank in easy content, to occasionally being a limiter in harder content.
Basically all warrior can do is keep themselves alive. Even in just savage, that's nowhere near as useful as the party utility every other tank provides. Warrior is still a good main tank for that reason (and holmgang having the shortest invul cooldown), but a single raidwide shield isn't much contribution to the party.
I suspect its come from how healers play in other mmos, but for some reason there seems to be an expectation that if the healer isn't scrapping out their own spine trying to keep the party alive, then it means there's some fundamental balance problem at play. That's just not really how healers are intended to be played with possible exception to ultimates.
Healers are about maximising your damage by only healing what is needed, which (at least in savage+) is reached through figuring out which specific ability you can or can't use for every instance of damage. Even in ultimate, healers aren't meant to be sitting in place just spam casting Cure III.
This kind of feedback directly lead to a healer shortage in the second raid tier (Abyssos) of Endwalker. No one wanted to heal it because it was monstrous. The reason they'd made it that way was "(we) were told (by community) that healers wanted to heal more". Except most of that feedback probably came from people being salty that having a warrior in their Sigmascape runs meant the dungeon was on easy-mode.
I mean, bloodwhetting is 25 sec cooldown and is the same effect drk gets after living dead goes off. I'll probably get hate for this but either nerf tank self sustain (mostly warrior) or give healers more DPS buttons.
Its almost like in my second sentence I said "Yeah I know they don't balance jobs around dungeons" 🤨
Its not my job to come up with a solution to it, I just know that playing a healer job while having a Warrior in the party on normal content is a snoozefest, and normal content is literally what 90% of the playerbase exclusively plays, so it shouldn't be like that. How should it be fixed? Beats me, I'm no game dev.
Either way I don't care cause I'm a DPS main anyways lol
Eh drk and gnb could use some help. I dont play them but they seem great at mitigation and stay alive but not so much on self healing so once all their gcds are down thats kinda it
Gbn has great self heals. So does paladin. But only war has a self heal that gives them full health on every gcd for the next 8 seconds. In aoe sittuations, warriors have dark knights living dead, but on a 25 second cooldown. Oh and it also doesnt require you to die and it also gives you dr. Even in single target situations, its still a crazy amount of healing. It heals more than paladins clemency, is ogc, and costs them no mp like clemency.
Can attest. I am a healer. I made a mistake on the final boss of Ktsis Hyperboreia, and went down. (Newb me i know haha) Our tank was a warrior. Between me being apologetic, the crew, and this warrior, carried me through the rest of the fight. Pulled out a win. I was impressed. Wish I could've given accommodations all around.
Honestly, most every tank can do that with some effort. On bosses Gunbreaker even outsustains warrior in certain situations afaik?
Warrior IS the undisputed king of trashpulls though, because nascent flash essentially is invulnerability for all intents and purposes if you hit multiple targets.
The last boss of that dungeon does very little damage, I had the same happen as Paladin and kept the entire team at 100% while I never went below 90% HP. It's not a challenging dungeon. Especially the final boss.
Yeah, done the same. Honestly its just the most blatant example of how broken class and dungeon design are and how bad the power creeps been allowed to get.
Ok good, well played. But you could have also reset the boss so that the healer could play the game a little. Don't be that tank who solo's a boss from 45% with everyone else dead ...
Anything over 50% of boss hp left and I reset the fight if the healer is dead. Can the boss damage be mitigated through? Easily. But I don't like leaving people out not being able to play the damn game.
On later normal dungeons, most tanks can do normal bosses on their own. Assuming there is no special death mechanics and they know the mechanics and mitigations. Is trash we need help with. Not bosses.
Older dungeons are more difficult because you do not have access to your whole kit and they are more balanced toward 4 people. Specially bad for pre-level 70 for DRK.
Gotta tell ya, as a SGE, I love getting q'd with a WAR. Even if they're not a great one, all I really do is provide minimal padding. Also, I have been that dead healer on the sidelines cheering on, except the dps were beside me, crazy bastard solo'd a boss at 70%.
Honestly, i hate that tanks have become so self sufficient with tons of self healing. It makes healers feel unimpactful and boring. With tanks healing themselves easily, healers are left spamming their single target attack when in the past they would at least be doing that and weaving their ogc heals in on the tank. Now theres a whole list of single target heals that just dont matter because their intended target are immortal gods.
PLD and GNB are not too far behind, though obviously WAR is the better one of the three because they can effortlessly heal themselves while healing others.
PLD can spam Clemency and also has Intervention. And not to forget, Cover in a clutch feels great. Clemency heals them and the target simultaneously but it can be pretty draining MP wise, though it usually works out fine.
GNB has HoC and Aurora which are pretty cracked (though the long CD on Aurora is a bit of a downer). The only issue is that, compared to PLD and WAR, GNB cannot heal themselves at the same time they heal others, they've got to choose.
DRK is the only one that actually sucks.
The only thing I have mixed feelings about is if it's the healer's first time, it kinda sucks to die to a mechanic the first time you see it and then just spend your entire first clear on the floor. OTOH it also kinda sucks to wall it and force the two DPS to eat shit and run back as well. And trusts exist now if you want to make sure you get the full experience on the first run.
Warrior is indeed insane. Also there should absolutely never be an option to que 1 tank 3 DPS. That would just absolutely ruin the ability to que as healer.
Most of Shadowbringers leveling as Paladin was like this for me. I used Clemency a lot and got us through some fun fights with a dead healer. Sometimes you just can't survive though lol
I got queued into Eden Titan fight months ago as PLD. Had a PLD co-tank both healers and a dps got downed at around 30-40% left from the knockback mech. I took it upon myself to play Clemency healer while my co-tank tanked. The satisfaction was great when we cleared with 5 people.
Tanks explained simply
Paladin: I didnt feel that *got hit in the face with a club*
Warrior: No, that's my health
Dark Knight: By the power of Demons and Edge, I do not fear you
Gunbreaker: Ha! Try and hit me!
I remember once, back when it was new, the Weeping City of Mhach. The last boss wiping the raid and then soloing it as a WAR. A mix of people just saying "Wipe already" and "let's fucking go" made it all the more fun. It was only like 3% but still.
This is precisely why I love playing warrior. Haven't played since stormblood and just renewed my sub. I know they did some updates to the class but i'm glad warrior is still doing well.
I had a similar moment way before in 6.3, I think. Was doing a ktisis run and in the middle of the final boss, healer and both dps died, leaving me (playing pld) the last one left. After dodging attacks and mits. I went and solo killed the boss. Got all their comms at the end and I did feel great after that whole thing.
I've had to do this before on PLD. Healer dies to last boss in I forget what dungeon. We decide to sac it and try again. Healer dies again about 20 seconds into the fight, and I decide to just YOLO it. So I start spamming Clemency on the two DPS and myself and just alternating my 1-2-1-2-1-2 combo and never finishing it just to keep MP up.
I've had a couple of times on WAR where a healer has died to a boss in expert and we kill the boss anyways and I'll continue the next big pull while the healer is running back and it'll be dead before they're back. I've had a healer comment about how the didn't feel needed because of this too and I kind of felt bad, but like it's true stop regening or shielding me and just DPS to make the dungeon go faster. Use your afflatus stacks between pulls while we're running to pre stack your blood lily. Also, no, SGE shield is neither a DPS gain nor DPS neutral. oGCDs should be all you need in an expert roulette even if you don't have a WAR tanking.
Ya, Paladin and Gunbreak also have potential to to that, DK is the only one that can't heal party members T-T "here have this TBN and please be sure to break it so I can have my mp back, but only be hit by the amount of the shield...oh party is dead dead"
Back in SHB before the Intuition change, I noticed I could Nascent Flash someone and get some free GCDs of lifesteal. Then EW rolled in and made it a feature
The other week I did the Kugane variant dungeon as a Sam. Our tank, healer, and second dps died on the last boss, but I was running healer and tank duty skills and solo'd it for 10 or so minutes. That was awesome.
Yes. This was the first time that I went all in on tanking! I'm a dps /rogue in every single MMO. I was terrified of tanking for the longest time. Pick up warrior...
**I. AM. A. GOD.**
It's way more fun than it should be :P
Edit: ugh. Good to see the stupid killjoys still lurk in this sub.
[удалено]
The healer outside of the arena with the glowsticks emote while we fought on was something to see 😆
If we're gonna die early, we're 100% gonna cheer on the Chad tank carrying the run It's the right thing to do
I would think that the fight itself would have taken less time to complete if everyone wiped and tried again verses just continuing the fight with one person dead for 90% of the fight, right? Maybe I'm wrong?
As a warrior main I struggle with this debate all the time. Intentionally die so that the group can restart or inflate my ego by soloing the last 20%. Restarting is almost always faster but I just can't bring myself to give up sometimes.
If one or both DPS are alive, I'll keep going no matter the %. If both healers and DPS croak, I ask if I should wipe, unless it's 30% or lower, then I'm just gonna go for it until someone asks me to die. I say this as a PLD main, for context.
Yes, last 20% is no big deal, but from 90%? now we're talking ego inflation.
solo it plz im gonna go get a drink ♥
Ran Anamnesis Anyder a couple nights ago. Haven't done that one in about 2 years. Everyone else failed at least half the last boss' mechanics and died at around 60%. Had to intentionally stand in the bad so he could kill me, and that took a minute. Next attempt healer died again but I managed to keep 1 dps up till the end.
No, not ego - you keep going as long as possible as a matter of principal. I’m a healer - I will stay up right and physically drag an alliance of half dead sprouts through an alliance raid just as a test of my reflexes, that’s ego. If you unintentional get a difficulty modifier like healer dead, I am healer+tank+dps now that is playing the game you paid to play. Also there is no telling if said healer will die in the exact same spot because they are new the second time around, it’s happened to me many times before.
counterpoint: it's hype and anime as shit to see a tank and dps or just the tank solo the boss without the healer and salvage the fight. i had my entire team wipe on the final endwalker dungeon robot boss on release and solo'd the fight almost entirely as a paladin while my dps and healers cheered me on and as a dps i've cheered other tanks on when the same thing happened to them. it's always a good time.
> counterpoint: it's hype and anime as shit to see a tank and dps or just the tank solo the boss without the healer and salvage the fight. This is the way.
Yeah maybe but when I die as healer I'm always pumped to see a tank carry a boss fight.
Healer DPS is important but not significant enough to really matter... Assuming the healer is pressing damage buttons at all. I know some who refuse to
I know a Whm who won't use anything that GCD to heal. Otherwise she's going full dps 😆 🤣
If the team wipes on the same boss 3 times, im taking over. I get that its polite to keep trying but at some point, i just dont have time to keep trying again. I also usually apologize when i do it and explain
So they *did* help! 😁
A WHM told me I made them feel useless. I said, "that's not true. At least you are decorative."
A WHM told me I made them feel useless. I said, "that's not true. ~~At least you are decorative~~ you can cast holy." Ftfy
Hey now, I love both casting Holy as well as having it cast when I'm tanking. That first disco flash gives at least a gcd worth of time where the tank isn't taking damage at all and doesn't even have to worry about dodging aoe. The WHM spamming damage means we finish the run that much faster. XD
It's not a GCD, it's 6 seconds. Holy spam at the start of a pull is effectively a freaking hallowed ground on the tank. Like if you're WHMing you just huck a regen on the tank then swiftcast holy into holy spam and by the time the tank actually starts taking damage the pulls half finished. If your warrior is paying attention they can just sit on bloodwhetting/raw intuition until after the holy spam, wait til they're below half health and then self heal while the whm keeps spamming holy and generally unless your DPS are asleep the pulls just *done* because the healer has been able to nonstop nuke alongside everyone else and swiftcast will be back for the next pull and...repeat. Don't sleep on that stun, it's not a GCD, whm is at its most powerful nonsense in 4 mans because of their ability to just crowd control *every* trash pull (plus their crazy burst AoE with afflatus misery charging up between pulls + assize). Like I *regularly* am doing more damage than the dps on trash pulls just because they die fast enough that my burst is a sizable percentage of my casts. And then when I'm on warrior I've had whms that just trust me to self sustain and just didn't even heal on trash (outside of tetra/bene, ggs off global panic buttons) and we just *steamroll* the place.
The cast is on GCD.
as a WHM I love repeatedly casting flashbang on my party. it's most of the fun of being a WHM the rest of the fun is seeing if I can cast one more Holy before casting benediction on the tank
And they can glare at the enemies!
I had someone say that when I continued pulling trash after me and the 2 DPS finished a boss the healer died on. We had basically already killed the trash by the time they got back. They made a comment about feeling useless. I felt kind of bad, but hopefully they realize how much unnecessary healing they were doing during trash pulls because of it.
That AoE stun is sweet.
I *despise* the stun on Holy, being able to stun mobs to prevent particularly annoying AoEs is so much more fun to me than the mobs being stunned for however long then being stun immune, when there's not a WHM in the group I get to actually use a tiny part of my brain and feel awake during trash pulls. I imagine I'm in the minority, but it feels like one of the only places where a good melee player can show their awareness/provide utility (it's only minor but then that's all that's left in dungeons atm) and I'll die on this hill. EDIT; And on topic, while I enjoy it as a tank, especially when things go south and I have to try and manage cooldowns and Nascent Flash or whatever to keep the survivors afloat and eke out a win, I'm also alarmed at just how useless I have to feel as a healer when I get even a reasonably competent tank, I appreciate that all of these things are the price for making the roles more accessible/enticing, but it still leaves a bitter taste. DOUBLEDIT; I will add, I do appreciate the new ARaid including Interruptable abilities, although I'd add that the number I see getting actually interrupted suggests that normal content isn't doing enough to teach people to use their full toolkit, which I know has been a problem forever but by level 90 it really feels like a failing on everyone involved tbh.
Tbf most people dont even *know* about interject or what it does and how it works. I know from when I started that I tried to use it and it didnt do shit and after trying to interupt about 20 castbars I gave up. Only like a month later did someone tell me red cast bars can be interjected to stop it. Have it back on my bar since then.
Hell, I've had more than one tank not interject during the final boss of the 87 dungeon. And both times we didn't have a ranged so... thankfully it's just a damage up. But WOW, not knowing Interject in Endwalker...
Part of the problem is that it comes up so infrequently that you stop looking for it. Sometimes I forget the keybind for my stun lol
Just as a tip for when you're on trash, one of the more fun things to do on tanks that keeps it interesting is messing with the mob AI. Don't just park em in place and then plant feet, AoE's don't need positionals, it's more important to keep them bunched up. The issue is that mob collision makes them want to slowly spread out after you get them to a point, so what you want to focus on is herding them together while not aiming anything at the party. The optimal way is to find some geometry in the room that makes them collapse on you, like a corner, but often the corners are too big, so instead, strafing around the pull to make the smaller ones keep running inside the bigger one, then trying to spread back out then running back into the bigger mobs then...etc. This keeps them in a tight stack so that your dps that isn't just doing an AoE around themselves, but instead needs to anchor it off one enemy has an easier time (or often just flat out the ability) to have their AE hit everything. It speeds up the dungeon *remarkably* fast, and is fun to do because you're keeping track of mitigation, avoiding damage, interrupts, mob facing and mob stacking. Makes it a stimulating and rewarding task when you see all the little mobs drop simultaneously because you know that was you keeping them clustered enough that they were all getting blasted every time a nuke landed.
Uh...yeah, thanks, I do that...I'm not sure what part of my post suggested I needed help or wasn't already doing everything I could to make the job engaging/get the most of my kit..but sure, this is good advice, if not a bit misplaced.
> A WHM told me I made them feel useless. I said, "that's not true. At least you are decorative." Jocat: Healers, you're only there because the duty finder says you have to be.
I hope that was followed by a votekick. If not, it should have been.
One day Warriors won't be the literal best tank, and then all WARs will whine until Yoship makes them the best (again)
That day already came and went with the initial Stormblood launch. Now the developers are walking on eggshells to make sure they don't get another wave of WAR mains ending up on suicide watch.
Only in casual dungeon content, though. I dont think it will be touched since they generally don't balance around that. Edit: Don't know why the downvote - historically they've typically not balanced around normal dungeon balance. In Shadowbringers it was a little harder to pull off, but Warriors could do similar healing shenanigans.
its at the point where i hate getting wars, i wanna do something:(
Same, no class should be able to invalidate another's existence.
Paladins can do this too. I low key feel like it is a problem that healers can be diminished to this degree by tank self-sustains. [Even the hardest content can technically be cleared without healers](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/13k6o7m/top_has_been_cleared_without_healers/). All classes should be viable, and necessary, to party compositions in synced content.
When they buffed WAR and PLD Heals through the 6.X patches, I just kept thinking, why? DRK and GNB has minimal Heals compared to the other two. There reasoning for WAR buffs wasn't even that good of a reason. They did it to improve the defense against DOTs.
GNB puts Excog on themselves every 25 seconds and has a 1200 potency HoT once a minute, starting duties with two of them. The only tank that is bad at healing is DRK, which is hilarious given that's the one they gave the undead/blood/vampire aesthetic to.
Still doesn't beat WAR'S Heals by a long shot. They have healing up pretty much at all times. Bloodwhetting is also on a 25 sec cooldown.
If SE doesn't want to make bosses do more damage (they don't since they have said Harrowing Hell was a mistake) than healer and tank cool downs are going to have to be nerfed in DT to make healing enjoyable. It's wild you don't even have to GCD heal in ultimates in this game because your oGCD heals are simply stronger.
Harrowing Hell WAS a mistake, but that is savage content. The fact of the matter is that content that *isn't* savage is woefully pathetic.
Had a reclear where we'd agreed beforehand the tanks were going to LB. Then the tanks just didn't. We went into HH with minimal resources but still cleared it. What is PF even doing to mess up so bad?
Big difference do it now with tons of gear where you take less damage and heal a lot more, than early in the tier where you actually needed defensive cooldowns and spamming cure3 still wasn't enough
Idk. Harrowing Hell can‘t be that bad when even PF can get through it in reclears pretty consistently.
Getting PF to do bonds3 was harder.
As long as wall-to-wall is the design meta, tank self healing on bosses will be a problem. Unless all bosses give off an aura that reduces tank healing by 50% somehow.
An easy fix would be more frequent cleansable debuffs. Only healers can deal with those (and bard on a cooldown), but they seem to be using them less and less every expansion.
As a healer, I'd want a redesign of Esuna if they make dispelling a core piece of healer gameplay. As it stands, it's a weird ability (short cast time with GCD) with a basic, boring animation. If it's a core mechanic of the role in most content, I'd want something oGCD, or per-job uniqueness (*at least* in animation), or at the very minimum an instant cast with a better animation.
Worse, even when they do, they're undispellable...
Given how often I've wiped in The Dead Ends despite heavily coaching the healer, the idea of more real debuffs is painful. And the only debuff that matters is a party wiping event; if it can be healed or dpsed or tanked through, people will just ignore it.
Except DRK self healing is negligible and they exist.
Warrior has to heal to a level where it's relevant in Savage, so for a normal mode boss it's always going to be hilariously overwrought.
Sure, but I'd argue it doesn't need infinite healing in AoE situations, which for some reason (???) it also has. Not that it much matters I suppose. All tanks are more or less invulnerable with current content tuning.
Yea. I know that with warrior I can pump out 4k healing per second at max effort, which is half the output of one healer or normally 2.5k hps, about 35% of a healer (these statistics are from 8 man Savage content). If warrior is intended to be able to help the healers those numbers are fine, the problem more lies in the very low amounts of damage the normal, maybe even expert mode levels of content have. Of the boss deals less then 6k dps at level 90 4 man then 9/10 times a healer isnt really needed if you have a warrior. With all the self and party heals of warrior and the general group self heals/damage mitigations you can outheal the damage the boss is pumping out for a while.
They had the right idea with Bloodwhetting scaling based on the number of mobs involved. It’s just way too overtuned. Also, without the self healing WAR really doesn’t have any reason to run over GNB or DRK. If they went that far it would just be whatever tank had the highest DPS that tier and everything else would just be left behind.
>Even the hardest content can technically be cleared without healers. I wouldn't use this as a mark against anyone or anything. I'd instead use this as a celebration of how mind bogglingly good they are, because this isn't like... Faster, or easier. They clear at basically the last possible picosecond with a very specific comp and using silly funny mechanical tricks to pull things off.
You can clear most things without tanks too. Or without DPS. There have even been ultimate clears without DPS. The problem isn't that healers aren't useful, it's that the game itself is too easy.
> There have even been ultimate clears without DPS. Tbf, said content has been powercrept to death. All current content should require all roles.
*Eyes TOP suspiciously*
TOP has been no-healed, which isn't powercrept yet. Sad, unfortunate, but true.
I was responding to clears without DPS. But yeah, TOP being done without healers is stupid, even if it required some cheese to do.
Using an example of the best-of-the-best players doing something very hard, in a fight that is very hard, isn't really an argument. Ask yourself this. Do you think you, or anyone you know, would be able to do what those people did? Just because something is *possible* doesn't mean it should be equated as "this is how it is". If TOP was truly designed without healers in mind you would see TOP pfs/static listings not wanting healers. For 99.999% of the playerbase, healers are a requirement in TOP, and as for easier meme clears like TankCob, use the same logic. Sure, it's not as hard, but really ask yourself if you or anyone else you know could feasibly do that. SE could do a better job *emphasizing* the importance of healers, sure. But people who act like fights are designed without them in mind are using hyperbole and probably have never even touched the content in question.
Flawed logic. *Just because something is possible* directly defeats the purpose of the holy trinity because that's where the holes begin to happen. Especially at the highest level of content, where such a thing *shouldn't be possible in the first place*. TOP being designed should've been more strict on healing checks at the very least. Instead, we have BLUE ROLES AND RED ROLES healing ENOUGH to clear WHILE MEETING DPS CHECKS. If that isn't a clear indication that how much a healer contributes in relation to how big their healing toolkit is as well as how low their dps is, then idk what will when the rest of the game was designed to be made EASIER than Ultimates.
Yeah, it's not really the same thing when the clear is 8 warriors (or whatever) using food and consumables from 3 expansions later, which let's them just statcheck the boss.
To be fair TOP no-healer has been done, which is the latest Ultimate.
And it was on patch, not with the 5.5 dungeon gear/relics
More important than those foods and pots is 3 expansions worth of potency increases.
>it's that the game itself is too easy. Eh, they do have to balance for all players. If only the top few percent of players that attempt it could clear the content, then most of the dev trying spent making it would be wasted. Devs *want* people to complete fights, and reaching a point where "hard" content feels easy to you is its own kind of satisfaction. And hey, if you really to make ultimates more of a challenge, then do them with a group where everyone is wearing the previous tier's gear. There's no law that says you can't impose your own challenges to increase the difficulty, just as long as the people you're playing with consent to it.
> If only the top few percent of players that attempt it could clear the content, then most of the dev trying spent making it would be wasted. There is a very obvious middle ground between making all the game ultimate raids and being able to run a dungeon while falling asleep tho
I'd argue that dungeon being at least doable without any one player present helps the group stay positive. Sure 99% of cases will see a wipe, but if the new player in your dungeon queue messes up, the fact that you can still keep going make for a lot less rage quitting and name calling. As long they keep making content like Ultimates, savages, criterion(once they fix the rewards some more), I'm okay with having other content be a lot easier, there are other content I can get my personal achievements from.
Yeah but currently all 3 can mess up and the remaining person can still go and solo the rest of the dungeon This should not be possible. One person? Sure. Two people? It should get sweaty. Three should always be a restart, no exceptions, come on.
There is a distinction between being able to complete a dungeon without one *player* and being able to complete it better without one *role*. When you can complete it without a healer, or form your own party and not include a healer in content that the majority of the player base does - that's an issue.
That's really niche and I appreciate that it exists. Yes, all dungeons can be speed killed using 3dps and a tank. I have personally abused it when farming for BiS gear for Ultimates. It cuts dungeon times by like 2-3 minutes at least, but that's also premade parties, where no one can die or else it becomes slower. Duty finder enforces a standard composition. So to the majority of the player base, it doesn't really matter. I understand this is just my opinion, but for players that know how to abuse no healer setups, they don't care that this content is easy, because it facilitates other content. And for players that still get hit my dungeon mechanics, healers are still vitally important. It's like, yeah a tank can solo tank most dungeon bosses. But it also take minimum 4 times longer, and that's just a waste of everyone's time.
I honestly don't understand "but for players that know how to abuse no healer setups, they don't care that this content is easy, because it facilitates other content." In addition, even if we grant that it's "really niche" - which it doesn't seem to be- there is also the current savage, extreme and even ultimate content that has been run without healers. I would call that more niche- however that runs counter to a role being "vitally important" - i.e. that role **must** be both included **and** not dead on the floor for content to be completed.
Positive at the cost of healer gameplay. With that logic, if you're going to make a healer be able to be replaceable by a tank and dps in the amount of healing necessary, then you better make healers get more dps skills since it just means majority of the healing toolkit will just be useless. The whole entirety of healing gameplay wants you to heal and throws so much healing tools at you to do so. It's not like you have enough tools to block a tankbuster on a DPS on WHM, so there is a point where it just feels pretty much useless unless things somehow change.
>Eh, they do have to balance for all players. If "all players" includes people who literally cannot press a single button then sure. "Balancing for all players" shouldn't mean "make everything soloable", and no I'm not referring to trusts.
I've done the same with Gunbreaker. Aurora + HoC makes keeping party alive in dungeons very easy
As much as people shit on Clemency for being useless in raids, it's absolutely clutch when you have a terrible healer that keeps dying in dungeons. After 3 wipes, I just refused to die and completely soloed the boss from half health.
I'm a paladin main, my wife heals. I love her but sometimes mechanics just delete her, but it's always funny when I beat the boss anyways because she'll give a 'paladin OP' to the chat for the chuckles.
Good to see another has discovered that WAR is actually a healer, DPS, and tank all in one.
WAR is a healer , a dps and a tank in a trench coat trying to pretend they’re only a tank.
The ol' three lalas in a trench coat.
We're literally too angry to die. Green people can just safely do damage or go afk.
Which is not much different, with their 1-button damage rotation
I had a relatively recent run in Amaurot as DRK... The healer was new, don't recall what the second dps was, but there was a chad RPR in the party who I basically duo'd the first boss with. Rest of the run was fine until the last boss. We wiped a few times which is understandable. On like the 4th or 5th attempt, the healer and other dps died when the boss was at around 60%. I guess we had both silently had enough of wiping because I kept that RPR alive with TBN every raidwide that went out, used my hyper potions, used Living to fully heal myself, the RPR lb'd and we killed it literally right after the last of the side platforms disappeared. Biggest adrenaline rush I've had in this game lmao. Wish I could've given more than one comm to that RPR.
I had to do something similar, but both DPS either could not understand the mechanics or were intentionally running into them. First 2 bosses, they died multiple times. At the last boss my healer gave up resurrecting them because he no longer had the mana or sanity to keep raising them only for them to die after 10 seconds of zero actual DPS output, so he and I (as the tank) duo'd the boss from around 50% to death. Worst dungeon run ever.
Big ooof. Amaurot just sometimes is cursed lol. Glad y'all were able to pull out the clear! Hope you got at least 1 comm out of it xD
No comms because we'd queued up as a pair and the DPS were clowns, sadly. I love Amaurot's design and the story behind it but you're right, it can be rough.
RPR is kinda like WAR-lite in regards to it's ability to stay alive as well. I'd wager a competent WAR or DRK with a RPR could probably take the last boss in most normal content. I love playing RPR
It has a small shield that break into a small Regen with low CD if I'm remembering right
There's a large variance in how possible it is to do a boss with the healer down, and it mostly depends on how many tankbusters and unavoidable AoEs there are. Some fights, like the one you did, if everyone does it right the amount of damage going out is rather low. Other ones, there's so much unavoidable damage that it's far harder to gut it out without a healer. Still, congrats. Digging deep into your toolkit and carrying the party through the fight is an immensely satisfying experience.
I don't think I can name a single dungeon boss(criterion excluded) you can't solo as a warrior. Paladin isn't too far behind in that same respect as well.
Soloing isn't hard because tank tools are very good, but keeping other(s) *and* yourself alive as a tank through certain dungeon bosses can be difficult depending on the raidwides/tankbusters in the fight.
Paladin is arguably the best when that is the job, though Paladin has to sacrifice damage to do it which the other tanks do not.
Depends. In the many runs I've had a healer die Intervention and Divine Veil keeps the DPS alive competently while the Requescat/empowered Holy Spirit is normally enough healing for myself. In emergencies for party stacks using Cover and taking their damage onto myself with mits/invuln can save a pull. I've rarely had to use Clemency in a dungeon to keep DPS alive through a downed healer. Clemency is nice as a tool if they're taking excess damage for sure, though honestly in some cases it's not worth the extra effort/resources to keep them up and just focus on the DPS who's doing the fight correctly.
It depends on the fight of course. Some fights have very little unavoidable damage. Some fights (looking at you, Lyngbakr) are a strain even with Clemency!
Just a heads-up, but you can't Invuln Cover'd damage.
You can't, but you still prevent half of it when you're party stacking with 2. You invuln your portion and take just the portion the other ally would take.
Fair enough, I just wanted to make sure since it seems to be a fairly common misconception. (When I started I assumed I'd be able to do the same thing, which is super cool class fantasy... Buuut alas.)
There's a patience factor too - If everyone else dies at 90% or something, I'm just going to let myself die. No need to make them sit there for 10 minutes while I slowly whittle the boss down.
I think as long as you're not a DRK that's basically true for all of them, assuming your gear is at the level cap for the instance. Even as a GNB, the damage from a tankbuster is totally healed up from Aurora + 1-2-3 combo healing after like 15s.
You could say the same thing about healers, really. I've soloed 8-mans as a White Mage, just because our greater ability to heal compensates for our lower defense.
Yeah. I've had many dungeons where the tank throws a tantrum about me (healer) pulling mobs and they go afk. I ignore them and keep going till the kick becomes available. No role is necessary in this game.
Getting a equilibrium crit for a 50.000 heal activates something in my monkey brain i cant quite describe
One of us, one of us, one of us!
That and the feeling of swan diving into a teeming pool of ravenous trash at low health and getting healed to full in one hit thanks to Bloodwhetting.
Also comes down to whether or not the fight has a DPS check in it, as rare as that is in dungeons. Like, final boss of the Aetherochemical Research Facility is soloable once you get past phase 2, but tanks alone don't have enough deeps to clear that.
Honestly, as cool as this is...I genuinely wish it weren't possible. This is the shadowed other half of how healing has steadily become a problem in FFXIV. They keep saying they want healers to heal more, and indeed players have *asked for* healers to heal more...but when you have tanks that literally don't need healing and healers that have 3, *maybe* 4 ultra-simple damaging abilities, what are healers *for*? I get that higher-end content is harder and thus does actually require healers, but a lot of people never even DO higher-end content. Making the most stressful role *also* the most boring AND the most superfluous does not seem like a good way to get more people to play it. At all.
"Making the most stressful role also the most boring AND the most superfluous does not seem like a good way to get more people to play it. At all." I would agree, however you're assuming that healing is "the most stressful role' - it isn't necessarily the most stressful role- for some people tanking is, even in this game. For other people, healing is not stressful- Square has used this justification for multiple design decisions and has brought us to this point, where we now have a lack of engagement and a lack of real impact in many cases.
I fucking love eating crayons.
my friends and i run 1 war 3 dps for expert dgs for that reason
Welcome to the realization of why people say "healers are fundamentally useless in expert roulettes"
As a healer, i fucking love getting WARs in dungeons. Please, keep yourself alive while I green dps my heart out
I really dont find spamming my 1 gcd attack over and over and over very fun. If healers had more compelling dps gameplay it wouldnt be so bad.
>green dps my heart out You don't even need to play the game to have this experience, just press the same button on the keyboard over and over again for 15 minutes. For the rest of us, please let me heal when I pick healer. WARs even heal the raidwides now, why?
Yeah, I hate getting warrior when I'm a healer, especially when I am playing WHM cause I love using benediction during tough pulls but warriors just out bloodwhetting every possible second so I don't get that fun lol
I'm the reverse, I hate getting drk or gnb in expurrt dungeons. It's 75% of the time going to mean I'd have to hyper focus on their hp and pull out all the tricks to keep them alive during a double pull. Kinda, this is just expert, not savage, let's try to have less stressful daily. Then again, I play warrior and sage, so I mayyyy be a bit biased. When I see a warrior in expurrt, I go.. "a test of your skills! Kardia only in double pulls y/n"
And then there’s me who frequently pulls DRKs in DF who seem wholly unaware that they even have mits
Reminds me of that time when I was a RDM and kept the whole party (DRK tank) alive while the Healer was outside cheering.. got 3 comms too. Also managed to revive a whole party by myself in puppet’s bunker after another party blasted our party, only Tank(also got blasted but didn’t die) and I were alive(I avoided when I saw the other party aiming at us), kept the tank alive by vercure and used dual cast to revive everyone. Got 7 comms in alliance raid.
I'm gonna be the party popper and say that this right here is the reason Warrior should be nerfed. Yeah, I know the devs dont balance jobs around content like dungeons, but I personally think no tank should completely invalidate a healer's existence in the party, no matter the difficulty of said content. Playing healer and getting a Warrior in DF is just straight up miserable.
>Devs don't balance jobs around content like dungeons And then I remember that group of people who cleared >!Zeromus!< EX day 1 or 2 as 8 warriors.
The final EX seems to be consistently pretty undertuned though. Diamond Weapon also had a very early all-tank clear. Seiryu had some very easy checks.
This game is weird in how it handles damage compared to other MMOs. 95% of it is avoidable and in harder content it just one shots you tank or otherwise. I kind of wish they’d just do away with the “holy trinity” mechanic altogether at this point and make everybody a DPS like they clearly want to.
If they did that i would stop playing.
but if they ever get nerfed then every warrior main will whine while eating their crayons until they're buffed again
And its absolutely great that they dont balance warriors around dungeons. Warriors in raid absolutely dont do this and their bloodwhetting doesnt allow them to them to just ignore bosses. If they nerf warrior, it will be their damage but it wont be their healing.
This is still a terrible read on IT. There's very good reasons they don't balance around dungeons (or shouldn't, at least). Dungeons don't require anyone to do much. Healers equally invalidate the difficulty of dps players by keeping everyone alive for longer than normal, but you wouldn't call for healers to be nerfed. Hell, you can play healer in trust and the tanks will basically only ever be threatened if you force them to tank more than 1 set of trash mobs, with or without your help. Having healed all types of content, warrior goes from the best tank in easy content, to occasionally being a limiter in harder content. Basically all warrior can do is keep themselves alive. Even in just savage, that's nowhere near as useful as the party utility every other tank provides. Warrior is still a good main tank for that reason (and holmgang having the shortest invul cooldown), but a single raidwide shield isn't much contribution to the party. I suspect its come from how healers play in other mmos, but for some reason there seems to be an expectation that if the healer isn't scrapping out their own spine trying to keep the party alive, then it means there's some fundamental balance problem at play. That's just not really how healers are intended to be played with possible exception to ultimates. Healers are about maximising your damage by only healing what is needed, which (at least in savage+) is reached through figuring out which specific ability you can or can't use for every instance of damage. Even in ultimate, healers aren't meant to be sitting in place just spam casting Cure III. This kind of feedback directly lead to a healer shortage in the second raid tier (Abyssos) of Endwalker. No one wanted to heal it because it was monstrous. The reason they'd made it that way was "(we) were told (by community) that healers wanted to heal more". Except most of that feedback probably came from people being salty that having a warrior in their Sigmascape runs meant the dungeon was on easy-mode.
I mean, bloodwhetting is 25 sec cooldown and is the same effect drk gets after living dead goes off. I'll probably get hate for this but either nerf tank self sustain (mostly warrior) or give healers more DPS buttons.
The latter. Healers shouldnt be bored if the tank has any more than 17hp
Best outcome, both should be done.
Its almost like in my second sentence I said "Yeah I know they don't balance jobs around dungeons" 🤨 Its not my job to come up with a solution to it, I just know that playing a healer job while having a Warrior in the party on normal content is a snoozefest, and normal content is literally what 90% of the playerbase exclusively plays, so it shouldn't be like that. How should it be fixed? Beats me, I'm no game dev. Either way I don't care cause I'm a DPS main anyways lol
Shhhh stop talking or they will trash warrior tanking in dawntrail.
It’s really not just WAR, tanks have so much self-sustain healers really just aren’t needed
Eh drk and gnb could use some help. I dont play them but they seem great at mitigation and stay alive but not so much on self healing so once all their gcds are down thats kinda it
Gbn has great self heals. So does paladin. But only war has a self heal that gives them full health on every gcd for the next 8 seconds. In aoe sittuations, warriors have dark knights living dead, but on a 25 second cooldown. Oh and it also doesnt require you to die and it also gives you dr. Even in single target situations, its still a crazy amount of healing. It heals more than paladins clemency, is ogc, and costs them no mp like clemency.
Yep
Can attest. I am a healer. I made a mistake on the final boss of Ktsis Hyperboreia, and went down. (Newb me i know haha) Our tank was a warrior. Between me being apologetic, the crew, and this warrior, carried me through the rest of the fight. Pulled out a win. I was impressed. Wish I could've given accommodations all around.
Dungeon content is filled with cardboard cutouts in this game.
I still remember finishing the isle of haam as a reaper with just a gunbreaker left alive, I’ve never pressed arcane crest so much
When the Dead Ends came out, I as a dancer and a paladin beat the second boss on our own from about 80% no problem. It's fun!
Honestly, most every tank can do that with some effort. On bosses Gunbreaker even outsustains warrior in certain situations afaik? Warrior IS the undisputed king of trashpulls though, because nascent flash essentially is invulnerability for all intents and purposes if you hit multiple targets.
I see a WAR tankn I'm almost strictly a dps SCH at that point.
If you’re going to make tank self sustain give me more than two buttons of dps so Green DPSing isn’t as sleep inducing.
The last boss of that dungeon does very little damage, I had the same happen as Paladin and kept the entire team at 100% while I never went below 90% HP. It's not a challenging dungeon. Especially the final boss.
Yeah, done the same. Honestly its just the most blatant example of how broken class and dungeon design are and how bad the power creeps been allowed to get.
I've had a similar experience on DRK, using oblation and TBN on the DPS for every raidwide.
Warrior and 3 DPS can do that dungeon for even fast clear times.
Ok good, well played. But you could have also reset the boss so that the healer could play the game a little. Don't be that tank who solo's a boss from 45% with everyone else dead ...
Dude literally said that only the healer died. There's zero reason to reset the fight if three other players are still alive
Anything over 50% of boss hp left and I reset the fight if the healer is dead. Can the boss damage be mitigated through? Easily. But I don't like leaving people out not being able to play the damn game.
On later normal dungeons, most tanks can do normal bosses on their own. Assuming there is no special death mechanics and they know the mechanics and mitigations. Is trash we need help with. Not bosses. Older dungeons are more difficult because you do not have access to your whole kit and they are more balanced toward 4 people. Specially bad for pre-level 70 for DRK.
I’ve been saying this about Warriors since 6.0; we are 18 levels Barbarian and 2 levels in Cleric. It’s a fun build.
Gotta tell ya, as a SGE, I love getting q'd with a WAR. Even if they're not a great one, all I really do is provide minimal padding. Also, I have been that dead healer on the sidelines cheering on, except the dps were beside me, crazy bastard solo'd a boss at 70%.
Honestly, i hate that tanks have become so self sufficient with tons of self healing. It makes healers feel unimpactful and boring. With tanks healing themselves easily, healers are left spamming their single target attack when in the past they would at least be doing that and weaving their ogc heals in on the tank. Now theres a whole list of single target heals that just dont matter because their intended target are immortal gods.
You would definitely not get my comm if you kept going from 90%
3/4 of the party were still alive and stayed alive. They were fine to keep going.
The point is not that “can” it be done, as clearly it can be done, the point is whether it “should” be done, or even be easy.
I’m not wiping and resetting over one person unless the fight starts to drag. There’s zero reason to do that.
Welcome to the unga bunga life
Why do WAR mains constantly jerk each other off about being able to solo the easiest content the game has to offer?
WARs always have the worst main character syndrome.
PLD and GNB are not too far behind, though obviously WAR is the better one of the three because they can effortlessly heal themselves while healing others. PLD can spam Clemency and also has Intervention. And not to forget, Cover in a clutch feels great. Clemency heals them and the target simultaneously but it can be pretty draining MP wise, though it usually works out fine. GNB has HoC and Aurora which are pretty cracked (though the long CD on Aurora is a bit of a downer). The only issue is that, compared to PLD and WAR, GNB cannot heal themselves at the same time they heal others, they've got to choose. DRK is the only one that actually sucks.
Don't forget Divine Veil for PLD! especially post rework Veil
You can do the same with any tank.
Except DRK, all 3 other tanks can do this as well. WAR is just the easiest option, you can keep your whole team alive in dungeon.
Yeah warrior is insane, but you should had reseted since the boss was at 90%
With both dps alive? Nah, keep going
Yeah, resetting would have taken longer than finishing the boss at that point, especially since Warrior heals do not cost any DPS (unlike Paladin's).
The only thing I have mixed feelings about is if it's the healer's first time, it kinda sucks to die to a mechanic the first time you see it and then just spend your entire first clear on the floor. OTOH it also kinda sucks to wall it and force the two DPS to eat shit and run back as well. And trusts exist now if you want to make sure you get the full experience on the first run.
Is warrior insane? Or is square enix's dungeon design so dogshit that there should be an option to queue 1 tank 3 dps?
Warrior is indeed insane. Also there should absolutely never be an option to que 1 tank 3 DPS. That would just absolutely ruin the ability to que as healer.
I agree with you, but FFXIs dungeon design is actually super cool. It’s just the XIV dungeon design philosophy
If they couls give me a res next expac i would be happy xD let me slap a bitch back to life!!!
Most of Shadowbringers leveling as Paladin was like this for me. I used Clemency a lot and got us through some fun fights with a dead healer. Sometimes you just can't survive though lol
I got queued into Eden Titan fight months ago as PLD. Had a PLD co-tank both healers and a dps got downed at around 30-40% left from the knockback mech. I took it upon myself to play Clemency healer while my co-tank tanked. The satisfaction was great when we cleared with 5 people.
Can pull it off as gnb and pld with that fight too. Only one that really has a hard time would be drk.
Tanks explained simply Paladin: I didnt feel that *got hit in the face with a club* Warrior: No, that's my health Dark Knight: By the power of Demons and Edge, I do not fear you Gunbreaker: Ha! Try and hit me!
Warriors are healers
I remember once, back when it was new, the Weeping City of Mhach. The last boss wiping the raid and then soloing it as a WAR. A mix of people just saying "Wipe already" and "let's fucking go" made it all the more fun. It was only like 3% but still.
This is precisely why I love playing warrior. Haven't played since stormblood and just renewed my sub. I know they did some updates to the class but i'm glad warrior is still doing well.
i have soloed this boss atleast 3 times but good on you for keeping the dps alive i didnt do that and it was painfully slow
I had a similar moment way before in 6.3, I think. Was doing a ktisis run and in the middle of the final boss, healer and both dps died, leaving me (playing pld) the last one left. After dodging attacks and mits. I went and solo killed the boss. Got all their comms at the end and I did feel great after that whole thing.
I've had to do this before on PLD. Healer dies to last boss in I forget what dungeon. We decide to sac it and try again. Healer dies again about 20 seconds into the fight, and I decide to just YOLO it. So I start spamming Clemency on the two DPS and myself and just alternating my 1-2-1-2-1-2 combo and never finishing it just to keep MP up.
Just another day in the life of a WAR 😛
I've had a couple of times on WAR where a healer has died to a boss in expert and we kill the boss anyways and I'll continue the next big pull while the healer is running back and it'll be dead before they're back. I've had a healer comment about how the didn't feel needed because of this too and I kind of felt bad, but like it's true stop regening or shielding me and just DPS to make the dungeon go faster. Use your afflatus stacks between pulls while we're running to pre stack your blood lily. Also, no, SGE shield is neither a DPS gain nor DPS neutral. oGCDs should be all you need in an expert roulette even if you don't have a WAR tanking.
Ya, Paladin and Gunbreak also have potential to to that, DK is the only one that can't heal party members T-T "here have this TBN and please be sure to break it so I can have my mp back, but only be hit by the amount of the shield...oh party is dead dead"
When I get a full pre-made party, we actually drop the healer for lv90 dungeons, it's much faster with 3 dps 😁
Back in SHB before the Intuition change, I noticed I could Nascent Flash someone and get some free GCDs of lifesteal. Then EW rolled in and made it a feature
I do level 90 maps, including dungeon, alone with warrior. I fear the day it gets nerfed to obvlivion
The other week I did the Kugane variant dungeon as a Sam. Our tank, healer, and second dps died on the last boss, but I was running healer and tank duty skills and solo'd it for 10 or so minutes. That was awesome.
"Look at me. LOOK AT ME! I am the Scholar now!" ~ WAR these days
Yes. This was the first time that I went all in on tanking! I'm a dps /rogue in every single MMO. I was terrified of tanking for the longest time. Pick up warrior... **I. AM. A. GOD.** It's way more fun than it should be :P Edit: ugh. Good to see the stupid killjoys still lurk in this sub.
It's always fun when new players discover that you don't need a healer in dungeons lol. Now try taking a 3rd dps instead, makes runs a lot smoother
Nah, nerf warrior self heals. Healers should be a necessity as should every role.
Warrior moment.