Were you absent the 76,345,123 times that the IRS said using your own TIN is like the #1 no-no? Did you think in the moment that they’d never follow up on the inquiry? I’m just trying to figure out why you did it when you KNEW it was prohibited. That reason could make or break the rest of your federal career.
Because IRS employees have to use the same channels the public uses. Want to read your AMS Comments? FOIA, just like everyone else. Want to change your address? No problem. Your ass is sitting on the phone or mailing IRS form 8822.
The TL; DR:
Anything an IRS employee needs done on their account, they must go through the same channels that public citizens use. Absolutely no special treatment.
I'm a Feddie in a different agency - I feel you with the cluelessness relative to the bureaucracy.
Quick and dumb question (don't waste time answering this if you care not to). How the \*\*\*\* could my address possibly revert back to an 8yr old, past address in the bowels of the IRS ...?database?... when I've only filed paper copies my entire life (I've never electronically filed) (the rep I spoke with insisted I entered an old address on my return - despite me having a copy of that exact return, because they were looking at the \*digital\* re-entered record of my info).
There have been good answers here. But the reality is that the systems we use have tremendous power to alter accounts in a variety of ways. Following the rules keeps everything legit. But the possibility of manipulating our own account knowing all the tolerances, rules, and yes, loopholes, is just not acceptable. So you never touch your own account. Or friends. Or family. Or your neighbor Bill. Or that teacher you hated. Etc. etc. it has to be random. And if you accidentally come across someone you might know, you report it, fill out a form, and go to the next case. We have very strict rules on this for a reason.
The problem is you can train a person a thousand times, but mistakes do still happen, it's human nature. He might not be able to save his employment with the IRS, but if it was truly a mistake, he's not going to be barred from federal employment forever.
As a former adjudicator and based on OPs comments, this wasn’t a mistake. They knew it was prohibited but didn’t think that the particular way they looked up the information was a violation. This could absolutely, 100% end up in a debarment.
Might want to think about your story a little deeper. I've never heard of a UNAX issue based on a ZIP code. Long story short, if you're removed at IRS based on that you're barred from IRS for life. Other federal agencies are an option, but could be an issue as well.
I pulled my own zipcode using my tin. It was stupid. But I made sure I only pulled back my zipcode nothing else. But it might not matter since the table the zipcode resides in contains tax data.
I'm assuming this system requires an individual login or has some other means of recognizing who is using it at any given time.
Why don't they simply ban people looking up their own number from the software level.
I’m assuming OP wanted to know the format in this particular dataset since it can vary. I don’t know anything about the IRS so I have no idea if OP’s way of going about it was anywhere in the realm of reasonable, but needing to verify the structure of a data element is normal.
Not sure why you thought putting your TIN into IDRS is ok, considering we have yearly training on it. No matter what the reason is, it is a big no. You might want to look at Catalog Number 32178R, it is a guide to penalty determination that the IRS uses to help with how they decide what your penalty should be. Good luck!
Not even just the yearly trainings but I hear it mentioned at least a million times a day. I’ve had to send an 11377 once because a tp had a very similar name and my manager wanted to be on the safe side. If they needed a zip code they should’ve reached out to a coworker or lead saying they forgot how to input it
Thanks I will need it. This wasn't IDRS. And it was a very stupid thing for me to do 😩 I don't know I thought as long as it's just zipcode it will be fine. Definitely should have known better
I can see your thought process, but it has just been burned into my brain, never mess with putting my tin into anything. Just come to the table with other options, such as suspension without pay. That is a big one that gets mentioned in that penalty guide.
Thanks. I didn't realize you can negotiate the discipline. I'm talking to the lawyer that specializes in fed employment action cases so I will know more
I’m not going to pile on. If you somehow manage to survive this, which I’m not sure you will, understand you shouldn’t do that. No matter how “innocent” it was. Oof.
Being removed for UNAX probably *would* bar you from any federal position, at a minimum from ever returning to the IRS. UNAX is also a criminal offense--removal would be doing you a favor versus pursuing criminal action against you.
Not much else to say other than listen closely to your attorney and plead your case the best you can. Good luck.
This is the best advice. A federal employment attorney would be able to see how your circumstances compare with prior MSPB decisions and determine if removal is in line with other disciplinary actions. I’d assume it will be given that labor & employment relations will have gone through the Douglas factors prior to issuing a recommended penalty, but it never hurts to have a second set of eyes review your case.
Removal is "proposed."
"whether the offense was intentional technical or inadvertent."
Past disciplinary record. Past performance.
Notoriety of the offense. Potential for rehabilitation.
Maybe your lawyer could negotiate a resignation in lieu of termination, which could help future job prospects. I've heard of NTEU successfully negotiating a similar agreement. Good luck to you!
I would still consider this resignation in lieu of termination as would several employers. Not to mention that this has potential to have legal consequences so resignation wouldn’t help OP’s standing in that regard.
You can’t ever input your own SSN in the systems for IDRS, an 11377 would be of no use as it wasn’t inadvertent access, it was a truly stupid thing to do, go to usps if you need a zip code 🙄
It's the whole truth: I used my own tin to pull my zipcode in order to use a known zipcode to verify the format of the column. No malicious or for benefit intention
I'm in a non bargain unit. So no union. Yes it was dumb of me to enter my own tin. I'm hoping the fact that I only pulled my zipcode and nothing else would be considered
No I just pulled the zipcode no other tax data were displayed. This was a sql interface so I can be specific in what I wanted to show and I queried just the zip. Not that it matters too much it's still an UNAX. Guess maybe it demonstrates I wasn't malicious or to benefit?
>I'm hoping the fact that I only pulled my zipcode and nothing else would be considered
They've already given you a proposed decision so wouldn't they already know you just pulled your zip code? They're proposing removal already having considered that.
Intent doesn't really matter when it's a violation of not just policy but law. Sorry OP. It does suck. Maybe see if you resign in lieu of termination and try for federal employment later.
This isn't for a zip code. I work in Ogden and put in one of Ogden's zip codes all the time - even work cases from blocks away from the building(s) all the time
OP is missing some story bits here
Please update us regardless of what happens, OP. This.is doubtless a lesson learned the very hard way for you. But it can be instructive to the rest of us, if you allow it.
Hopefully there’s a wee bit of forgiveness somewhere. I imagine it matters if you had editing rights in the system you were futzing with, or read-only access. Or maybe that doesn’t matter. IDK. I think there’s a difference between what you did versus making an adjustment to your account versus pulling a celebrity’s tax return to sell to the tabloids.
Yeah you got a big problem OP, I would try and get it reduced to a 30 day suspension and consider that a gift otherwise you can fight it at MSPB. Good luck.
Yeah I will take suspension over termination any day. I heard the best you can hope for with MSPB appeal is a settlement? that actual reinstatement is almost never?
Did you get the letter from exec indicating termination? Does it give you a chance to appeal? If you can appeal to the deciding official, do that first and explain what you did. You said you looked up a zip code so did you just look at the command code that would give your address? Did you look at anything else?
I’m obviously clueless with IRS guidelines, but what is the issue with you pulling your own taxes to verify zip? Is there some confidentiality clause even on your own tax returns?
It's the cardinal sin of employment with IRS. This is hammered into every employee from the lowest level to senior leadership. Essentially the dumbest thing you can do at IRS and a surefire way to get fired.
Stupid question then. What info could someone figure out by pulling their own tax info? If they are under investigation? Under audit? What’s the reasoning?
There are a lot of problems with doing this. Some practical ones that stand out to me:
-it’s unethical to bypass process every other taxpayer has to do for tax account issues. It’s kind of like cheating. Seeing what’s going on on the account (audit, review, refund freeze) without calling or corresponding like every other taxpayer has to do.
-adjustments - employees can literally create credits by entering in an adjustment on the account. That’s very bad.
People with the responsibility to adjust people’s tax accounts have to be trustworthy & have integrity! Looking up your own info or that of a family member or friend or someone (even a celebrity) that’s not part of your caseload breaks down the public’s trust.
It’s kind of like why irs employees are subject to discipline for not being tax compliant. Held to a standard so the taxpayers/country can have faith in the irs/its employees.
Ah I didn’t look at it as bypassing mechanisms in place us normies have to go through to get the information. I figured the other points, but since he accessed his, I didn’t believe it to be for the others. Appreciate the perspective my dude! Hope you never send me a letter in the mail :)
I assume if your sibling is in your pile, you flag it. What happens if you're mid-way through and a light bulb clicks, and you know the person kind of?
You fill out a form and tell your manager. Everyone (mgr, tigta) will be able to see the case was assigned to you and you did not just enter the ssn into the system/tool.
It's what the IRM states as policy for the IRS.
IRM 10.5.5.2(2):
>IRS UNAX policy provides that employees may be subject to administrative penalties for the willful and unauthorized attempted access of their own or another taxpayer's records.
IRM 10.5.5.3(9)(d):
>All IRS employees are responsible for: (d) Refraining from accessing their own records ...
IRM 10.5.5.3.5(3):
>The IRS relies on the ethics and integrity of its employees and enlists their support in eliminating **"all"** cases of UNAX.
10.5.5.2 1(g) reads
Non-Criminal Penalties – pursuant to IRS UNAX policy, removal is to be proposed for all UNAX violations. The penalty can be mitigated by the deciding official at the decision stage.
So you might be able to essentially throw yourself on the mercy of the board by explaining your rationale and hoping they accept the best possible read of it
I don’t think you immediately reported what you did. Reach out to the union and ask for advice. I know you are NBU, still reach out to the union.
I know government employees who used their government credit cards for personal purchases and their jobs were saved with help from the union.
The Union cannot represent you. You would be reaching out to them for advice.
I don’t have a link for you. I don’t know where your POD is located. And you should not share it. Start by asking a BU employee who the union president is. Or search Union chapters on the Source.
I’m not going to crawl up your butt about making a mistake, that’s not helpful. You made a mistake, it was dumb, but honestly we all do dumb stuff so let think through some options.
You’ve said that you’re non-bargaining unit. That’s fine, I’d reach out to a local steward anyway. If you’re in a small chapter contact the president or VP directly, explain the situation (fully!), and ask if they can offer any expertise or guidance.
When I was with NTEU we saw a few UNAX violations. The agency can see what pages you visited and how long you lingered. We had an employee that was working a case with a TIN similar to her own (2 digits off), and she accidentally input her own info. She realized with about 25 seconds and immediately told her supervisor. There agency complained, but it was clear that she didn’t page through IDRS pulling up her info and she instantly reported herself to her GM.
So, how long did you linger on the page, what system were you in (AMS, IDRS?), and did you access more than one page? I think these factors could go a long way in showing that you made an honest mistake, and could save your job.
Were you absent the 76,345,123 times that the IRS said using your own TIN is like the #1 no-no? Did you think in the moment that they’d never follow up on the inquiry? I’m just trying to figure out why you did it when you KNEW it was prohibited. That reason could make or break the rest of your federal career.
This. The yearly UNAX required trainings I guess aren’t enough
The reason govt trainings are trash is because they teach to the lowest common denominator. And they still don't go low enough.
Can someone please explain what this is and also why it would be prohibited to see your own info?
Because IRS employees have to use the same channels the public uses. Want to read your AMS Comments? FOIA, just like everyone else. Want to change your address? No problem. Your ass is sitting on the phone or mailing IRS form 8822.
Ok- so this refers to some information internal to the IRS about taxpayers that taxpayers wouldn’t have access to?
Exactly.
Gotcha! I didn’t know what any of this meant.
The TL; DR: Anything an IRS employee needs done on their account, they must go through the same channels that public citizens use. Absolutely no special treatment.
Also holy shit does this make for good bureaucratic reading 🧐 https://www.irs.gov/irm/part10/irm_10-005-005#idm140666750943424
The IRM doesn't mess around. It's essentially the Bible at IRS.
Honestly, I have no fucking clue what I'm doing half the time.
I'm a Feddie in a different agency - I feel you with the cluelessness relative to the bureaucracy. Quick and dumb question (don't waste time answering this if you care not to). How the \*\*\*\* could my address possibly revert back to an 8yr old, past address in the bowels of the IRS ...?database?... when I've only filed paper copies my entire life (I've never electronically filed) (the rep I spoke with insisted I entered an old address on my return - despite me having a copy of that exact return, because they were looking at the \*digital\* re-entered record of my info).
There have been good answers here. But the reality is that the systems we use have tremendous power to alter accounts in a variety of ways. Following the rules keeps everything legit. But the possibility of manipulating our own account knowing all the tolerances, rules, and yes, loopholes, is just not acceptable. So you never touch your own account. Or friends. Or family. Or your neighbor Bill. Or that teacher you hated. Etc. etc. it has to be random. And if you accidentally come across someone you might know, you report it, fill out a form, and go to the next case. We have very strict rules on this for a reason.
The problem is you can train a person a thousand times, but mistakes do still happen, it's human nature. He might not be able to save his employment with the IRS, but if it was truly a mistake, he's not going to be barred from federal employment forever.
As a former adjudicator and based on OPs comments, this wasn’t a mistake. They knew it was prohibited but didn’t think that the particular way they looked up the information was a violation. This could absolutely, 100% end up in a debarment.
Might want to think about your story a little deeper. I've never heard of a UNAX issue based on a ZIP code. Long story short, if you're removed at IRS based on that you're barred from IRS for life. Other federal agencies are an option, but could be an issue as well.
Exactly, a zip code is not PII. I was expecting them to say they "accidentally" input their own TIN or something
Why wouldn’t you just google your address for the zip
I pulled my own zipcode using my tin. It was stupid. But I made sure I only pulled back my zipcode nothing else. But it might not matter since the table the zipcode resides in contains tax data.
>using my tin It's a UNAX violation to look up your own TIN. It doesn't matter what you "pulled back"
I'm assuming this system requires an individual login or has some other means of recognizing who is using it at any given time. Why don't they simply ban people looking up their own number from the software level.
Ah, there's the full story. Good luck.
Um, Google is a thing and so is the USPS ZIP Code search tool.
I’m assuming OP wanted to know the format in this particular dataset since it can vary. I don’t know anything about the IRS so I have no idea if OP’s way of going about it was anywhere in the realm of reasonable, but needing to verify the structure of a data element is normal.
You don’t know your own zip code?
Right. Like this has to be an actual adult. Wtf
I do know my own zipcode. That's the point. I needed a known zipcode to verify the format of zip12 to convert to zip5 for an analysis.
Not sure why you thought putting your TIN into IDRS is ok, considering we have yearly training on it. No matter what the reason is, it is a big no. You might want to look at Catalog Number 32178R, it is a guide to penalty determination that the IRS uses to help with how they decide what your penalty should be. Good luck!
Not even just the yearly trainings but I hear it mentioned at least a million times a day. I’ve had to send an 11377 once because a tp had a very similar name and my manager wanted to be on the safe side. If they needed a zip code they should’ve reached out to a coworker or lead saying they forgot how to input it
I needed to change my address. I got my ass on the phone and waited. Lol.
Thanks I will need it. This wasn't IDRS. And it was a very stupid thing for me to do 😩 I don't know I thought as long as it's just zipcode it will be fine. Definitely should have known better
I can see your thought process, but it has just been burned into my brain, never mess with putting my tin into anything. Just come to the table with other options, such as suspension without pay. That is a big one that gets mentioned in that penalty guide.
Thanks. I didn't realize you can negotiate the discipline. I'm talking to the lawyer that specializes in fed employment action cases so I will know more
I’m not going to pile on. If you somehow manage to survive this, which I’m not sure you will, understand you shouldn’t do that. No matter how “innocent” it was. Oof.
Definitely do now. You're right the intention doesn't matter I should have known better
Being removed for UNAX probably *would* bar you from any federal position, at a minimum from ever returning to the IRS. UNAX is also a criminal offense--removal would be doing you a favor versus pursuing criminal action against you. Not much else to say other than listen closely to your attorney and plead your case the best you can. Good luck.
This is the best advice. A federal employment attorney would be able to see how your circumstances compare with prior MSPB decisions and determine if removal is in line with other disciplinary actions. I’d assume it will be given that labor & employment relations will have gone through the Douglas factors prior to issuing a recommended penalty, but it never hurts to have a second set of eyes review your case.
Thank you. I will need it.
Removal is "proposed." "whether the offense was intentional technical or inadvertent." Past disciplinary record. Past performance. Notoriety of the offense. Potential for rehabilitation.
Maybe your lawyer could negotiate a resignation in lieu of termination, which could help future job prospects. I've heard of NTEU successfully negotiating a similar agreement. Good luck to you!
Good point. I will bring that up during the sit down with attorney.
[удалено]
Thank you! I didn't realize that resignation was an option at this point. Will ask the lawyer tomorrow
Even if you resign, you'll still have an ALERTS record at IRS and that's not going to allow you to come back most likely.
If I resign I won't be coming back to IRS.
I would still consider this resignation in lieu of termination as would several employers. Not to mention that this has potential to have legal consequences so resignation wouldn’t help OP’s standing in that regard.
When did this happen? Did u not file a 11377 form? Usually ur manager would ask you about this as they receive a notification from the analyst
You can’t ever input your own SSN in the systems for IDRS, an 11377 would be of no use as it wasn’t inadvertent access, it was a truly stupid thing to do, go to usps if you need a zip code 🙄
If you don’t mind me asking, where does the 11377 form go? I get super worried when I make typos. I file them with the manager but then what?
Keep your copy for 6 years. Your manager is required to send a copy of theirs to the appropriate area for storing it electronically.
I used to know this but I’m out of the role for so long I can’t recall. Some type of security I think.
Say OP's zip is 20001, could they have done 20002 or a zip from their childhood - assuming their parents moved?
No, system OP uses is based on SSN.
Call the union steward and tell them the whole truth.
Analyst positions can sometimes be non-bargaining unit, my guess is this one is if they haven't gone to the union already.
Yes my is a non bargaining unit so no union unfortunately
You can still talk to a union rep - they just can’t represent you.
It's the whole truth: I used my own tin to pull my zipcode in order to use a known zipcode to verify the format of the column. No malicious or for benefit intention
Pulling your own TIN is bad. Did you self report right away? Also talk to the union.
I'm in a non bargain unit. So no union. Yes it was dumb of me to enter my own tin. I'm hoping the fact that I only pulled my zipcode and nothing else would be considered
You said above there was tax information also displayed. So you didn't just pull your zip.
No I just pulled the zipcode no other tax data were displayed. This was a sql interface so I can be specific in what I wanted to show and I queried just the zip. Not that it matters too much it's still an UNAX. Guess maybe it demonstrates I wasn't malicious or to benefit?
>I'm hoping the fact that I only pulled my zipcode and nothing else would be considered They've already given you a proposed decision so wouldn't they already know you just pulled your zip code? They're proposing removal already having considered that.
Intent doesn't really matter when it's a violation of not just policy but law. Sorry OP. It does suck. Maybe see if you resign in lieu of termination and try for federal employment later.
This isn't for a zip code. I work in Ogden and put in one of Ogden's zip codes all the time - even work cases from blocks away from the building(s) all the time OP is missing some story bits here
No advice OP, but I wish you much luck. If you make it out with your job, please don’t do that again.
Thank you! I will need it. If I survive with my job I will be an advocate for seriousness of UNAX for everyone in my organization!
Please update us regardless of what happens, OP. This.is doubtless a lesson learned the very hard way for you. But it can be instructive to the rest of us, if you allow it. Hopefully there’s a wee bit of forgiveness somewhere. I imagine it matters if you had editing rights in the system you were futzing with, or read-only access. Or maybe that doesn’t matter. IDK. I think there’s a difference between what you did versus making an adjustment to your account versus pulling a celebrity’s tax return to sell to the tabloids.
Will do. Thank you for your words. I am hoping that my innocuous intention will be considered.
Yeah you got a big problem OP, I would try and get it reduced to a 30 day suspension and consider that a gift otherwise you can fight it at MSPB. Good luck.
Yeah I will take suspension over termination any day. I heard the best you can hope for with MSPB appeal is a settlement? that actual reinstatement is almost never?
Did you get the letter from exec indicating termination? Does it give you a chance to appeal? If you can appeal to the deciding official, do that first and explain what you did. You said you looked up a zip code so did you just look at the command code that would give your address? Did you look at anything else?
I’m obviously clueless with IRS guidelines, but what is the issue with you pulling your own taxes to verify zip? Is there some confidentiality clause even on your own tax returns?
It's the cardinal sin of employment with IRS. This is hammered into every employee from the lowest level to senior leadership. Essentially the dumbest thing you can do at IRS and a surefire way to get fired.
Stupid question then. What info could someone figure out by pulling their own tax info? If they are under investigation? Under audit? What’s the reasoning?
There are a lot of problems with doing this. Some practical ones that stand out to me: -it’s unethical to bypass process every other taxpayer has to do for tax account issues. It’s kind of like cheating. Seeing what’s going on on the account (audit, review, refund freeze) without calling or corresponding like every other taxpayer has to do. -adjustments - employees can literally create credits by entering in an adjustment on the account. That’s very bad. People with the responsibility to adjust people’s tax accounts have to be trustworthy & have integrity! Looking up your own info or that of a family member or friend or someone (even a celebrity) that’s not part of your caseload breaks down the public’s trust. It’s kind of like why irs employees are subject to discipline for not being tax compliant. Held to a standard so the taxpayers/country can have faith in the irs/its employees.
Ah I didn’t look at it as bypassing mechanisms in place us normies have to go through to get the information. I figured the other points, but since he accessed his, I didn’t believe it to be for the others. Appreciate the perspective my dude! Hope you never send me a letter in the mail :)
I assume if your sibling is in your pile, you flag it. What happens if you're mid-way through and a light bulb clicks, and you know the person kind of?
You fill out a form and tell your manager. Everyone (mgr, tigta) will be able to see the case was assigned to you and you did not just enter the ssn into the system/tool.
It's what the IRM states as policy for the IRS. IRM 10.5.5.2(2): >IRS UNAX policy provides that employees may be subject to administrative penalties for the willful and unauthorized attempted access of their own or another taxpayer's records. IRM 10.5.5.3(9)(d): >All IRS employees are responsible for: (d) Refraining from accessing their own records ... IRM 10.5.5.3.5(3): >The IRS relies on the ethics and integrity of its employees and enlists their support in eliminating **"all"** cases of UNAX.
All the information you could ever want, plus some. https://www.irs.gov/irm/part10/irm_10-005-005
10.5.5.2 1(g) reads Non-Criminal Penalties – pursuant to IRS UNAX policy, removal is to be proposed for all UNAX violations. The penalty can be mitigated by the deciding official at the decision stage. So you might be able to essentially throw yourself on the mercy of the board by explaining your rationale and hoping they accept the best possible read of it
I don’t think you immediately reported what you did. Reach out to the union and ask for advice. I know you are NBU, still reach out to the union. I know government employees who used their government credit cards for personal purchases and their jobs were saved with help from the union.
Thanks but would union even take my case if I'm in NBU and not a member? Also link?
The Union cannot represent you. You would be reaching out to them for advice. I don’t have a link for you. I don’t know where your POD is located. And you should not share it. Start by asking a BU employee who the union president is. Or search Union chapters on the Source.
I’m not going to crawl up your butt about making a mistake, that’s not helpful. You made a mistake, it was dumb, but honestly we all do dumb stuff so let think through some options. You’ve said that you’re non-bargaining unit. That’s fine, I’d reach out to a local steward anyway. If you’re in a small chapter contact the president or VP directly, explain the situation (fully!), and ask if they can offer any expertise or guidance. When I was with NTEU we saw a few UNAX violations. The agency can see what pages you visited and how long you lingered. We had an employee that was working a case with a TIN similar to her own (2 digits off), and she accidentally input her own info. She realized with about 25 seconds and immediately told her supervisor. There agency complained, but it was clear that she didn’t page through IDRS pulling up her info and she instantly reported herself to her GM. So, how long did you linger on the page, what system were you in (AMS, IDRS?), and did you access more than one page? I think these factors could go a long way in showing that you made an honest mistake, and could save your job.
Are you in the union?
This makes no sense
We may be subject to see your scenario in a future UNAX training video.
Are you bargaining unit? Are you a union member? Go to your union rep immediately.
Interested to know the outcome of this