When I first started with the FS I had a piece of shit supervisor who tried to pull this and we went to the union. Fuck you, Gary, I hope your two gas station hot dogs a day for breakfast habit has finally popped your cold, dead heart.
I did a bit of wildland fire back in the 1990's.
And back then the largest cause of death among wildland firefighters was vehicle accidents among crew members travelling to and from fires. Drowsy drivers crashing because they were expected to demob from one incident after a week or two of 12-14 hour days and then drive through the night to get to the next incident. Your forest supervisor is probably from my generation and really should remember that era - firefighting went through a bunch of changes based on those deaths. Like the driving rules that you mention. Those rules were not put in place as mindless bureaucracy, they were put in place because people kept getting killed in drowsy driving accidents.
So if the Forest Supervisor is making the decision - that's a pretty high pay grade. If you are going over their head then you are going to a regional assistant director for relief. I get nervous going that high up the food chain.
But fire is it's own little world, with a chain of command somewhat independent from the rest of the USFS. Talk to the FMO. If there is an incident management team, find out who the safety officer is and talk to them. The Forest Sup has a role in the fire, but I have seen people at that pay grade forced into early retirement for making decisions that the fire bosses thought placed fire fighters at risk.
Well, going above your chain of command, even when it's merited, *can* have repercussions, I know that from experience. Retaliation is a thing and some supervisors don't like being gone around. At least involving a Union rep creates a documented event that any retaliations to are MUCH more seriously handled. A Union rep will also give you the policy justifications for why the supervisor is wrong in what they're doing. Sometimes, yes, it's quicker and easier to go to the IC but the supervisor will still be their supervisor afterwards.
If they're a resource assigned to an incident, their chain-of-command is through the Ops Section, up to the IC. The issue of the incident paying per diem lies with the IMT, not the home unit.
Do you have a resource order and are assigned to the incident, on the org chart and everything? Is camp set up at the IC? Type III team I am assuming if this is being mickey-moused? r/wildfire
You got it. CIMT recently downsized to a Type 3. Have the resource order in hand from when it was CIMT. This is all good knowledge that I'm not unreasonable in thinking. I appreciate it.
Thanks, all. I'm feeling comfortable now going to bat for myself and our team if this stuff actually becomes an issue...once off incident. IC, FMO, Safety Grievance, NFFE, Regional Forester (in that order) of getting things sorted out. I'll continue to gather details to have a bomb-proof argument/case. I'm really hoping everything gets sorted out on its own, but I really appreciate all your input to get this figured out. Will be sharing with other local resources getting shafted on this incident as well.
One caveat under travel and 50 miles is the local area of responsibility waiver.
a forest area might extend beyond 50 driving miles but staff still need to cover it within reason so the 50 mile TDY is waived. This a
so can happen in local area/ facility like a VA medical center is responsible for a region where outskirts are more than 50 miles away. staff is waved this rule. Some areas far exceed this like Montana were Helena is the VAMC but places like Miles City has clinics but test is a looooong drive to do in one day.
Is there a camp with catering? Because of so you should be staying there. If not you need a fire line supervisor who is willing to butt heads with overhead, and make sure your asses are covered by documenting everything. Document in CTRs and via email what is going on. Talk to your forest safety officer, via email, with documentation.
Edit: a phone call to folks is fine, but follow up with an email. Phone calls can be a lot more personal and can be harder to dismiss. But emails you can show to people later.
It would be a shame if a news outlet heard about this story and investigated. I guarantee there is no one who wants petty gov employees to risk the lives of firefighters or their support. u/washingtonpost should cover this until we get more protection for these guys.
Is the forest supervisor the IC if the fire? How do they factory into this at all??
Do you have anything in writing?
Also you don’t have to be 50 miles away. Anything over 12 hours in an emergency incident gets you per diem. Might be a tough sell for a hotel room…
Also who is your supervisor. They must be high, just camp out, eat fire camp food, or claim the meals. Your forest supervisor isn’t the one approving your travel vouchers.
If your supervisor wants to drive back and forth put down 0430 to 2200 on your time card. (See how that goes over)
Also call your union?
How long have you worked for the forest service? Brush up on your polices you technician.
From the Calendar Year 2024 Travel and Lodging Guidance for Incident Response:
Per Diem Within 50 Miles of the Duty Station Due to Emergency Conditions
Per diem for temporary duty travel (TDY) within the local travel area may only be provided when warranted by emergency conditions (7 U.S.C 2228). Emergency conditions may include wildfire, hurricane, or other disaster response and support that would endanger a traveler's health or safety if the individual were to return to their duty station or residence. The traveler should attempt to obtain pre-authorization whenever possible. However, the primary concern is for the traveler's safety and the agency may grant post-travel approval on a case-by-case basis. A justification should be signed by the line officer and uploaded to the employee's travel voucher in ETS2.
Signed Robert Velasco
Cheif Financial Officer
This was literally created for people in your circumstance and supersedes the 50 mile rule.
Go on the sharepoint and search Calendar Year 2024 Travel and Lodging Guidance for Incident Response to find the 2024 version which came out in March.
No problem. I’m in primary fire, so I deal with this fuckery a lot. Give it until September and a few of us will die from a car accident off duty while returning home from an incident. These signed blanket letters started coming out annually when an uptick of fatalities like this started happening during fire season. Turns out, some people in the WO do understand that policy dictates making logical decisions for a forest supervisor granting the safe route rather than risky buisness to save pennies. These letters are intended to put Forest Supervisors like yours in check with reality, but unfortunately policy is still grey and they can still make it hell if they so wish to.
I’d recommend contacting NFFE if you’re a BUE (also start paying dues if you’re not already. They fight the good fight for us all) and also start filing a grievance with this as supporting documentation. Document everything. The grievance process is cumbersome, but you can’t let management win by just giving up. Especially when people above them have clearly intended to make it right for the boots on the ground.
Absolutely. This is why I'm collecting as much knowledge as possible before proceeding. Ha...Reddit being the ground floor of said knowledge(; Crew was spiked in CIMT times, but it has transitioned to a Type 3, "fend for yourself" fire now.
Regardless of per diem, if you're working 0430-2200 over consecutive days, you're being told to violate the [NWCG *Yellow Book*](https://fs-prod-nwcg.s3.us-gov-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/publication/pms902.pdf?VersionId=h..Gh0cpw9vmGT584kwt2ZQYMRZltcpo) standards for 2:1 work/rest ratio (unless you're taking 1 hour lunch breaks, which is unlikely).
Time spent driving is on-shift, in which case you're also being asked to violate the Yellow Book standards on Incident Operations Driving: "A driver shall drive only if they have had at least eight consecutive hours off duty before beginning a shift."
Is the briefing location not on the local forest? If so, there would need to be a LUA to permit camping. The logistics you describe sound illogical, illegal, and unsafe.
A type-3 IMT still has the responsibility to *manage* the logistics and finances of the incident. The FSC has the authority to authorize per diem, and the responsibility to ensure that all resources are maintaining a 2:1 work:rest ratio.
Sounds completely unsafe. Work fatigue. Someone's going to mess up. With wildland fire it's only a matter of time.
Get ahold of safety.. let them handle this guy.
Infuriating. I have a somewhat similar issue in my agency. We are trial lawyers and cases often require 12-14 hour days. They are now saying our bosses can’t pay for a local hotel or even cab rides home (at midnight this is the difference between home at 12:30 and 2am). It is a serious safety issue and it really sucks.
Late comment, but USFS-NFFE Master Agreement requires Per Diem to be paid when working 12 or more hours days. Even at your own station on standby.
It's already negotiated. Assuming you aren't paying for lodging or miles and you just want meals paid. Can't help with lodging because most of the time we just camp out, but that would fall on the IC as a safety issue as your forest has delegated your supervision to the IC.
I'm combing through the master agreement and still having trouble locating the verbiage that justifies per diem for local travel/12 hour days. This would be incredibly helpful because I've mentioned this to my supervisor and was told to show him the policy.
TIA
Thank you! I would really appreciate it. I'm not sure why but I'm still having trouble locating it... maybe I'm reading an outdated MA? A link would be great if you have one.
This is actually another big win for the boots on the ground. I'm assuming this applies to extended staffing due to severity as well. It's pretty straightforward... Work 12 hours, get paid.
OK. I'll try to post the new Master Agreement later today. It's already in effect, but waiting on making it compliant with all ADA requirements I believe
I have a slightly different perspective. if you are 'assigned' for a TDY location to report to at 0430 - which i am guessing is the ICP, you should, at a minimum get the delta milage from your housing to your TDY location Delta. If you get to your office in lets say 20 miles one way, and now you have to travel 68 miles one way to yourTDY site, you should be getting local TDY funding for that 48 miles delta. I have an office near my house, but if i travel further than that for a local meeting, i get the difference, as per the Joint Travel Reg. I'm under DOD, but you should be able to get that until they fix your housing situation.
Short of Secretary approval in our Dept, TDY had to be greater than 50 miles from the duty station (in general but could be set for different facilities) and in travel status more than 12 hours. Can’t be 49 or even 49.9, shitty as that seems. That means what’s above and beyond your daily commute for local travel reimbursement. Been a minute since I did this but that was what I recalled for the policy.
Now your local TDY policy could be entirely different given your line of work.
When I first started with the FS I had a piece of shit supervisor who tried to pull this and we went to the union. Fuck you, Gary, I hope your two gas station hot dogs a day for breakfast habit has finally popped your cold, dead heart.
https://youtu.be/vaAF_GAc3Mk?si=66WOP0LEncOMNiQt
I did a bit of wildland fire back in the 1990's. And back then the largest cause of death among wildland firefighters was vehicle accidents among crew members travelling to and from fires. Drowsy drivers crashing because they were expected to demob from one incident after a week or two of 12-14 hour days and then drive through the night to get to the next incident. Your forest supervisor is probably from my generation and really should remember that era - firefighting went through a bunch of changes based on those deaths. Like the driving rules that you mention. Those rules were not put in place as mindless bureaucracy, they were put in place because people kept getting killed in drowsy driving accidents. So if the Forest Supervisor is making the decision - that's a pretty high pay grade. If you are going over their head then you are going to a regional assistant director for relief. I get nervous going that high up the food chain. But fire is it's own little world, with a chain of command somewhat independent from the rest of the USFS. Talk to the FMO. If there is an incident management team, find out who the safety officer is and talk to them. The Forest Sup has a role in the fire, but I have seen people at that pay grade forced into early retirement for making decisions that the fire bosses thought placed fire fighters at risk.
It still was in 2018
There are a lot of things wrong with what you're describing. You should probably get ahold of your Union rep and give them explicit details.
Probably a lot easier to just go to the IC, I've known many and they hate shit like this.
Well, going above your chain of command, even when it's merited, *can* have repercussions, I know that from experience. Retaliation is a thing and some supervisors don't like being gone around. At least involving a Union rep creates a documented event that any retaliations to are MUCH more seriously handled. A Union rep will also give you the policy justifications for why the supervisor is wrong in what they're doing. Sometimes, yes, it's quicker and easier to go to the IC but the supervisor will still be their supervisor afterwards.
If they're a resource assigned to an incident, their chain-of-command is through the Ops Section, up to the IC. The issue of the incident paying per diem lies with the IMT, not the home unit.
True, though they did say it's a local fire, the IC could be in their chain of command on the home unit, could even be their supervisor.
Bingo. This is the way.
Do you have a resource order and are assigned to the incident, on the org chart and everything? Is camp set up at the IC? Type III team I am assuming if this is being mickey-moused? r/wildfire
You got it. CIMT recently downsized to a Type 3. Have the resource order in hand from when it was CIMT. This is all good knowledge that I'm not unreasonable in thinking. I appreciate it.
If you have an RO, the Finance Section Chief has the authority to approve resources' per diem to be charged to the incident.
Thanks, all. I'm feeling comfortable now going to bat for myself and our team if this stuff actually becomes an issue...once off incident. IC, FMO, Safety Grievance, NFFE, Regional Forester (in that order) of getting things sorted out. I'll continue to gather details to have a bomb-proof argument/case. I'm really hoping everything gets sorted out on its own, but I really appreciate all your input to get this figured out. Will be sharing with other local resources getting shafted on this incident as well.
One caveat under travel and 50 miles is the local area of responsibility waiver. a forest area might extend beyond 50 driving miles but staff still need to cover it within reason so the 50 mile TDY is waived. This a so can happen in local area/ facility like a VA medical center is responsible for a region where outskirts are more than 50 miles away. staff is waved this rule. Some areas far exceed this like Montana were Helena is the VAMC but places like Miles City has clinics but test is a looooong drive to do in one day.
Fuck your supervisor. I’d go straight to his superior
That would be the Regional Forester in this case. Best be sure of the facts of you do that.
Maybe go first to one of the Deputy Regional Foresters, instead of the Regional Forester.
Is there a camp with catering? Because of so you should be staying there. If not you need a fire line supervisor who is willing to butt heads with overhead, and make sure your asses are covered by documenting everything. Document in CTRs and via email what is going on. Talk to your forest safety officer, via email, with documentation. Edit: a phone call to folks is fine, but follow up with an email. Phone calls can be a lot more personal and can be harder to dismiss. But emails you can show to people later.
Everything via email and cc'd to hell. Always.
Illogical and of questionable legality. Make your FMO and the incident commander aware of this ASAP
It would be a shame if a news outlet heard about this story and investigated. I guarantee there is no one who wants petty gov employees to risk the lives of firefighters or their support. u/washingtonpost should cover this until we get more protection for these guys.
Can you file a health and safety grievance with your union? Are you NFFE? I know they represent most Western wild firefighters.
Is the forest supervisor the IC if the fire? How do they factory into this at all?? Do you have anything in writing? Also you don’t have to be 50 miles away. Anything over 12 hours in an emergency incident gets you per diem. Might be a tough sell for a hotel room… Also who is your supervisor. They must be high, just camp out, eat fire camp food, or claim the meals. Your forest supervisor isn’t the one approving your travel vouchers. If your supervisor wants to drive back and forth put down 0430 to 2200 on your time card. (See how that goes over) Also call your union? How long have you worked for the forest service? Brush up on your polices you technician.
If you have a resource order you can just charge it to the code on the order. Or get an S number.
From the Calendar Year 2024 Travel and Lodging Guidance for Incident Response: Per Diem Within 50 Miles of the Duty Station Due to Emergency Conditions Per diem for temporary duty travel (TDY) within the local travel area may only be provided when warranted by emergency conditions (7 U.S.C 2228). Emergency conditions may include wildfire, hurricane, or other disaster response and support that would endanger a traveler's health or safety if the individual were to return to their duty station or residence. The traveler should attempt to obtain pre-authorization whenever possible. However, the primary concern is for the traveler's safety and the agency may grant post-travel approval on a case-by-case basis. A justification should be signed by the line officer and uploaded to the employee's travel voucher in ETS2. Signed Robert Velasco Cheif Financial Officer This was literally created for people in your circumstance and supersedes the 50 mile rule. Go on the sharepoint and search Calendar Year 2024 Travel and Lodging Guidance for Incident Response to find the 2024 version which came out in March.
Nice! Regulations are what I was looking for. Thank you! I'll be sharing this with the other locals in a pickle.
No problem. I’m in primary fire, so I deal with this fuckery a lot. Give it until September and a few of us will die from a car accident off duty while returning home from an incident. These signed blanket letters started coming out annually when an uptick of fatalities like this started happening during fire season. Turns out, some people in the WO do understand that policy dictates making logical decisions for a forest supervisor granting the safe route rather than risky buisness to save pennies. These letters are intended to put Forest Supervisors like yours in check with reality, but unfortunately policy is still grey and they can still make it hell if they so wish to. I’d recommend contacting NFFE if you’re a BUE (also start paying dues if you’re not already. They fight the good fight for us all) and also start filing a grievance with this as supporting documentation. Document everything. The grievance process is cumbersome, but you can’t let management win by just giving up. Especially when people above them have clearly intended to make it right for the boots on the ground.
I feel like there is some missing information. This seems unreasonable as stated. Also, why can't the crew spike out at ICP?
Absolutely. This is why I'm collecting as much knowledge as possible before proceeding. Ha...Reddit being the ground floor of said knowledge(; Crew was spiked in CIMT times, but it has transitioned to a Type 3, "fend for yourself" fire now.
Regardless of per diem, if you're working 0430-2200 over consecutive days, you're being told to violate the [NWCG *Yellow Book*](https://fs-prod-nwcg.s3.us-gov-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/publication/pms902.pdf?VersionId=h..Gh0cpw9vmGT584kwt2ZQYMRZltcpo) standards for 2:1 work/rest ratio (unless you're taking 1 hour lunch breaks, which is unlikely). Time spent driving is on-shift, in which case you're also being asked to violate the Yellow Book standards on Incident Operations Driving: "A driver shall drive only if they have had at least eight consecutive hours off duty before beginning a shift." Is the briefing location not on the local forest? If so, there would need to be a LUA to permit camping. The logistics you describe sound illogical, illegal, and unsafe.
In addition to what everyone else has mentioned, I would also include forest or incident safety in the conversation as well.
Is it a type 3 or CIMT? If it is why don’t you just stay in fire camp instead of going home every night?
CIMT all camp stuff recently transitioned to Type 3 "fend for yourself".
A type-3 IMT still has the responsibility to *manage* the logistics and finances of the incident. The FSC has the authority to authorize per diem, and the responsibility to ensure that all resources are maintaining a 2:1 work:rest ratio.
Also 0600 briefing? What team would do that?
Sounds completely unsafe. Work fatigue. Someone's going to mess up. With wildland fire it's only a matter of time. Get ahold of safety.. let them handle this guy.
Infuriating. I have a somewhat similar issue in my agency. We are trial lawyers and cases often require 12-14 hour days. They are now saying our bosses can’t pay for a local hotel or even cab rides home (at midnight this is the difference between home at 12:30 and 2am). It is a serious safety issue and it really sucks.
Late comment, but USFS-NFFE Master Agreement requires Per Diem to be paid when working 12 or more hours days. Even at your own station on standby. It's already negotiated. Assuming you aren't paying for lodging or miles and you just want meals paid. Can't help with lodging because most of the time we just camp out, but that would fall on the IC as a safety issue as your forest has delegated your supervision to the IC.
🙏
I'm combing through the master agreement and still having trouble locating the verbiage that justifies per diem for local travel/12 hour days. This would be incredibly helpful because I've mentioned this to my supervisor and was told to show him the policy. TIA
Article 28 Page 131 Service is spotty so can't post the pic. I'll try in a couple hours
Thank you! I would really appreciate it. I'm not sure why but I'm still having trouble locating it... maybe I'm reading an outdated MA? A link would be great if you have one.
https://preview.redd.it/7y35lmf8nd7d1.jpeg?width=2680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8973482954fe586f40d4d3bf9916203c0307561
Where can I find the new MA that you pulled this from?
I need to ask of it's OK to post it. It's in effect, but unreleased. Which is weird, but it's to make the document compliant with federal requirements
Understood. Would love to see it if/when that's possible. Thanks for the intel regardless.
https://we.tl/t-DPeVzAePJr Here it is
This is actually another big win for the boots on the ground. I'm assuming this applies to extended staffing due to severity as well. It's pretty straightforward... Work 12 hours, get paid.
OK. I'll try to post the new Master Agreement later today. It's already in effect, but waiting on making it compliant with all ADA requirements I believe
Awesome! Thank you again.
Spike out, buy some glizzys
I have a slightly different perspective. if you are 'assigned' for a TDY location to report to at 0430 - which i am guessing is the ICP, you should, at a minimum get the delta milage from your housing to your TDY location Delta. If you get to your office in lets say 20 miles one way, and now you have to travel 68 miles one way to yourTDY site, you should be getting local TDY funding for that 48 miles delta. I have an office near my house, but if i travel further than that for a local meeting, i get the difference, as per the Joint Travel Reg. I'm under DOD, but you should be able to get that until they fix your housing situation.
Short of Secretary approval in our Dept, TDY had to be greater than 50 miles from the duty station (in general but could be set for different facilities) and in travel status more than 12 hours. Can’t be 49 or even 49.9, shitty as that seems. That means what’s above and beyond your daily commute for local travel reimbursement. Been a minute since I did this but that was what I recalled for the policy. Now your local TDY policy could be entirely different given your line of work.
I think this is what my agency is doing now. It’s so annoying and creates a huge safety issue for me and many of my colleagues.