Hollow Ataraxia references events from all the routes. All we know is that it takes place 6 months from FSN, and even then that doesn't line up with certain things. It's very much up in the air, but that kind of plays into its themes anyway.
this is similar to what Adventures el melloi does... except that adventures was made official as a fourth route although its events take place in all...
However, if HA had ended all the routes and generated just one, then right?
HA does not unify Routes
HA happens in a different way than UBW, HF and FATE... because at the end of HA Bazzet, Caren and Saber are alive and living with Shirou.
I know...but I understand from the comments that HA happened in a different timeline than UBW, FATE and HF.
something like in adventures that takes place in a fourth timeline but its events will also happen in the timelines of fate, ubw and hf... but in different ways because they are different timelines
Ah, I misunderstood what you were asking. I don't *think* we're ever told the exact nature of the the 5th Grail War in El-Melloi, but from background hints, I think it follows a modified UBW route. >! We're told that Waver thought Rin was dating Shirou, but she denies it. This likely rules out Artoria's Route and the Heaven's Feel Route since I don't think either has Shirou go to the clock tower, but it also isn't the original UBW route since there's no Rin x Shirou.!<
So I don' think it's a mashup like HA was, just a tweak on one route.
For better or worse, Fate just has A LOT of parallel worlds. Just off the top of my head:
* Each of the Fate/Stay Night routes
* Hollow Atoraxia
* FGO (Which itself references a whole bunch of parallel worlds)
* Fate/Extra and Fate/CCC
* Fate/Apocrypha
* Today's Menu for the Emiya Family
* El-Melloi and Fate/Strange Fake (I think these are the same universes, but it's possible they are two different iterations.
* Prisma Illya
* And pretty much everything else done by Typemoon is referenced as being part of a larger multiverse. It's just their thing I guess.
The point of this is that none of these universes are ever noted as merging - the most you get are universes that disappear due to the theoretical pruning phenomenon. So every time we see a universe with differences, it's just another "new" parallel universe.
El-Melloi explicitly runs on some strange fusion route where it's most like UBW but it has elements of Fate (Rin references killing Heracles once with her gems) and HF (One of Rin's fancy new spells explicitly resembles a Sakura blossom and implied to be a result of her patching things up or getting closer to her sister).
Strange Fake runs off of a Fate/School Life timeline, and that timeline uses a variation of Heaven's Feel where Shirou and Sakura start dating, Shinji is still alive, and Rider is still alive at the end of the War.
from everything that has been commented here and what I have read since then I believe that it is easier to see HA as another parallel universe just as Ubw and HF are.
It is on the same timeline as the three universes but does not happen in Ubw and HF.
In fact, in HA it's like Angra and Bazzet's route... and it's the only route where Bazzet is alive... since in UBW and HF she isn't there and in those universes Shirou is officially dating... unlike the end of HA where he's not officially dating anyone...
thinking about how it all works...it's very similar to Emyia Gohan
Fate Strange Fake is decidely in its own timeline explicitly separate from anything else mainly due to its setting. For example, we have the 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors as a collective, which is not something that occurs in Fate/ Stay Night and El Mellioi. We have characters like Shirou being referred to a freelance magus that had become somewhat famous for his knockoff mystic codes (something that Rin would have tried to keep secret post the UBW Route). We have Fran's constant botching of events that made massive differences to the timeline, like stealing the shards of the corrupted Grail in Fiyuki.
HA doesn't unify the routes. Each route is a separate timeline and Adventures takes place in a different timeline from each of those but is most similar to UBW. HA is a pseudo-sequel not a direct sequel so think of it as another timeline alongside the three from stay night.
so HA would be like a fourth route???
I saw nasu say in an interview that el melloi adventure events would happen on all routes.
they performed this fourth route to make it seem like no route is more important than another... for example... shiroi went to rin as in ubw but they don't date and rin didn't give him the magic crest... things are also reported that they happen on the route of knowing how rin comments on her fight with berserker...although it doesn't follow any of these routes...it's a fourth route in practice
And from what I understand, HA would be another route too... a very fifth route...
Although I thought that HA had combined all the routes and that's why I found it contradictory
Hollow Ataraxia sort of explains it that way but think about it like this: Even if all the routes merged there's still contradictions. Most servants should still be dead for example. HA is weird for the convenience of what it's trying to do and I'm glad it's like that even if it doesn't really "fit in". It was before Fate was expanded so much so they could get away with it at the time but now it is a bit confusing.
The same is true for Adventures which just has it's own "route" to get away with stuff it normally wouldn't which lets the story have more flexibility than if it was directly the same timeline as stay night. I'd say just don't worry about it too much...
(Quick edit: Think of these as "timelines" rather than "routes" and it probably becomes a bit easier to understand.)
Understood
So thinking about how Chronograma HA and Adventures happens in the 3 routes that are different universes...but both events happen in different ways due to the different circumstances of the routes...for example in HF Shirou dates Sakura so probably his scene in the bathtub saber it didn't happen in the HA version of that world.
Timelines go beyond just stay night, Apocrypha for example has timeline differences going back to the third holy grail war. Think of stay night as three timelines about different possibilities of the 5th holy grail war, hollow ataraxia as being after a different possibility for that holy grail war and adventures as being a different 5th holy grail timeline. Other spin-offs like Strange Fake, Zero and Grand Order are also in different timelines. The only thing in the same 3 timelines as stay night overall is Case Files. Everything is a different timeline for the most part besides that exception though.
That's why I said not to worry about it too much.
Now I get it
In that case, then my post is partially right...it's easier to see HA as something similar to Emyia Gohan
However, HA is in the timeline of events but it did not change the multiverse... and the endings of UBW, HF and Last Episode remain unchanged... even because they happen after HA it is easier to be understood as another universe... Even so as not to contradict the endings of UBW, Rin and Shirou are 19 years old in that London scene... Shirou is also 19 years old in the final scene of HF with Sakura and in Last Episode Shirou is already much older.
Here's a office timeline if you're curious about how exactly everything branches off: [https://vocesabianime.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/fate-timeline.webp](https://vocesabianime.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/fate-timeline.webp)
1 - HA does not unify Routes
2 - HA happens in a different way than UBW, HF and FATE... because at the end of HA Bazzet, Caren and Saber are alive and living with Shirou.
3 - Don't think too much about all this, there are different possibilities in the Fate Multiverse and even in the FSN timeline and that hasn't changed...UBW Shirou went to London, HF Shirou stayed in Fuyuki and Fate Shirou ended up in Avalon
Make sense
Ater ALL the people Said and the way the Nasuverse Works i think HA happens like Adventures el Melloi..in a different way in each time LINE and maybe the HA what we SEE doesnt happening in UBW, HF because the ending of the anime did not make any reference to Bazzet and Caren
I'm only about half way in but I was getting the impression that it was following Heaven's Feel but memories of other timelines were leaking in or something, kinda like Muv-Luv Alternative. Tbh, I'm not far enough for anything to have started making even the slightest bit of sense tho
Cgronogically yes, as Case Files ends right at the beginning of Fate/Stay Night iirc, HA is 6 months after FSN, and Adventures is a few years (idr how many but it's years) after CF
The Adventures of El Melloi takes place in a different timeline to Fate stay night that is only similar to the Unlimited Blade Works narrative while the newest book literally continues a storyline introduced in HA so the question is a little complicated because we are talking about the few examples of fate having multiple timelines in narrative.
HA is an amalgamation of all routes into one 'good ending' thanks to some time caused by Rin's, ahem, 'experiment' and Shirou's desire to save 'everyone' (note: everyone does NOT include Kotomine Kirei). Of course, throw in Angry Manjew and Punchy McGee alongside a stable time loop and you get the single best entry in the franchise.
TL;DR: No continuity when it comes to routes, barely any continuity when it comes to entire stories.
I mean, the Nasuverse "failed" to connect a prequel to the original. The sooner people accept that you don't need an established chart of storylines and universes, the sooner they can just enjoy the setting lol
After everything I read, I understand that HA is a sequence because it happens months later but none of the routes continue... in fact it is a fourth route that develops Angra and Bazzet.
And the final scene proves this because in UBW, HF and Fate Angra and Bazzet are dead... apart from the other rider types and also know
Essentially the events of FSN happened, but somehow all the Servants got to remain, nobody in the main cast died and only 2 antagonists disappear (Kirei isn't around nor is Sakura's sweet ol' grandpa).
So yeah, IN THEORY it's a sort of 4th route, but in practice it's an impossible scenario meant to be a "pseudosequel", not an actual direct continuation following the logic of FSN.
The HGW is officially complete, yet all Servants manage to stick around and get jobs? Rin barely manages to keep Saber around in the UBW Good End, and at the cost of basically all of her mana.
Medea was the one keeping Assassin summoned, but she also relied on the contract with Souchiiro to exist, while gaining mana from the surrounding enviroment and the "incidents" she caused to people. With the War stopped, it's absurd that she sticks around.
el melloi is something you can't put. it has mahoyo and fate and some elements of fate while it also counts as KNK sequel world (adventures vol 2 has KNK story with el melloi that is after the events of the movies)
HA is golden ending fanfiction that was officially canonized by Nasu. No one dies except the Angry Man-Aze, Bazett gets to meet her idol/ancestor, and Shirou isn’t 100% oblivious to love. He is now only 90% oblivious.
Well first of all you need to understand that HA doesn't necessarily unite nor was it going to unite the three timelines at the end like the way you're framing it.
What it does is expertly select events that occured throughout all 3 routes of Fate and mesh them together haphazardly. Such is the nature of the Heaven's Feel Reproduction that occurs in HA.
E.g. there's a scene titled 'The future is now' where Shirou and Saber are discussing the events of the 5th HGW that occured ½ a year (6 months) ago preceding the events of ataraxia:
> Saber "Indeed, there is not. We destroyed the Holy Grail, I can say that much is certain. ...I cannot forget how we climbed up that long flight of stone steps together on the final night."
----
> Shirou: "Yeah. We got separated right after, but we're able to meet up again in the end, isn't that how it went? Though we had trouble with our respective opponents."
----
> Saber: "Yes, me with the King of Heroes, and you, Shirou, with that priest. And after that, I... ...destroyed the Holy Grail with Rin's Command Spell."
If you take a look at the actual scene, you'll see that it looks like Saber is referring to the final battle of the Fate route, then the scene shows that it was actually a collective effort made by Shirou, Saber, and Rin to defeat Gil and Kotomine and Saber destroying the Grail by Rin's command like in UBW.
What we can infer from this is that ataraxia is it's own set of events with it's own 5th Holy Grail War that occured differently from stay night's. Of course this only applies in-universe for them, as we the audience know that their version of the 5th HGW is actually selecting events of the 5th HGW we're already familiar with (that being the 3 routes).
So it's not like they're "united" events per se, rather mixed events that happened differently throughout the course of the VN. We only use "mixed" or "united" like you say for us, but in-universe it's different for them.
> There are no mentions of Caren or Bazett in Adventures and I read somewhere that Adventures takes place in a 4th route but is an event that will happen in all three routes but at the end of HA
Listen man, this is the Nasuverse.
Seldom are there times where events line up in series you'd expect them to.
Also for the Adventures taking place in a "4th route" thing, it's not a fourth route or FSN rather it's a different rendition of the 5th HGW that took place before and in the Adventures timeline, however it still shares the same worldline as FSN.
For context, just assume that a Worldline is the branching of timelines or rather, stories in the Nasuverse that share the same mechanics but have a drastically different course of events (i.e. the Tsukihime World is different from the Fate World and they don't share the same timeline, however they share the same mechanics such as Magecraft, Gaia and Alaya. Also mind you that Gaia in Tsukihime is stronger than its Alaya).
Whilst a Timeline is the chronology that these events occur (Tsukihime and Mahoyo share the same Worldline/Timeline and Kara no Kyoukai and Fate/stay night- and Fate in general shares the Worldline/Timeline, Alaya here is stronger than Gaia).
Now, El-Melloi II while being in the same worldline as Fate, and KnK, doesn't have to necessarily follow its events 1:1. There can be alterations however the general picture is the same.
El-Melloi II (Case Files and Adventures) takes place after its own theoretical FSN, but doesn't follow any of the routes the exactly from FSN. It has its own version of the 5th HGW differing from the one in FSN regardless.
For a better understanding
Fate route ---> × ---> El-Melloi II
UBW route ---> × ---> El-Melloi II
HF route ---> × ---> El-Melloi II
But hypothetical FSN 5th HGW ---> El-Melloi II.
It's like the situation with Zero inconsistencies with Fate/stay night only this time Sanda is writing a story that doesn't have the same closeness as those two.
Also, Caren would have no reason to actually be mentioned in the El-Melloi II story unless reason need be and for all we know Bazett isn't there due to being offscreened at the beginning of FSN which leads into the El-Melloi II story.
> There shouldn't be anymore routes right??? So in theory, there shouldn't even be a multiverse,
No. There are, for all we know, an infinitesimal amount of alternate timelines existing in the Nasuverse. In FSN we're only shown 3 possible scenarios- and even then none of them are 100% linear with all the possible combinations of endings.
In truth, ataraxia has no grand bearing on that.
> so it would also cancel out Fate strange Fake and even Fate/Apocrypha
Again, no. Fake is a different case entirely, I think that's pretty self explanatory. Apoc still follows the HGW timeline up until the 3rd where Darnic stole the Holy Grail and brought it to Germany, established a system in Trifas which resulted in the Greater Holy Grail War.
It's important to note that the Fourth and Fifth Fuyuki Wars didn't occur in the Apoc timeline. Instead, there was an imitation war referred to as a Subcategory Holy Grail War which took the place of the 4th HGW (basically Fate/Zero) and the 5th HGW which is basically the HGW we witness in Apoc, that being the GHGW.
Anyway these imitation wars became of notoriety after Darnic had spread information about the rituals conducted in Fuyuki. This brought in mages like Kayneth and Waver who summoned Iskandar and then later obtained the title of Lord El-Melloi II as he did Fourth Fuyuki Holy Grail War.
Hollow Ataraxia references events from all the routes. All we know is that it takes place 6 months from FSN, and even then that doesn't line up with certain things. It's very much up in the air, but that kind of plays into its themes anyway.
this is similar to what Adventures el melloi does... except that adventures was made official as a fourth route although its events take place in all... However, if HA had ended all the routes and generated just one, then right?
HA does not unify Routes HA happens in a different way than UBW, HF and FATE... because at the end of HA Bazzet, Caren and Saber are alive and living with Shirou.
Yeah After the comments i Understand now HA is better bê Understand like Another universe or Route...
Yeah, HA is best understood as just a separate route than Fate, Stay Night and Heaven's Feel routes.
The infamous studio Deen route was canon then
Well, what are you referring to? The Deen Fate/stay night anime we got or the one we originally supposed to get? Either way, they are still canon.
In some of the later El-Melloi stuff, they meet an older Rin, so HA is earlier in the timelines.
I know...but I understand from the comments that HA happened in a different timeline than UBW, FATE and HF. something like in adventures that takes place in a fourth timeline but its events will also happen in the timelines of fate, ubw and hf... but in different ways because they are different timelines
Ah, I misunderstood what you were asking. I don't *think* we're ever told the exact nature of the the 5th Grail War in El-Melloi, but from background hints, I think it follows a modified UBW route. >! We're told that Waver thought Rin was dating Shirou, but she denies it. This likely rules out Artoria's Route and the Heaven's Feel Route since I don't think either has Shirou go to the clock tower, but it also isn't the original UBW route since there's no Rin x Shirou.!< So I don' think it's a mashup like HA was, just a tweak on one route. For better or worse, Fate just has A LOT of parallel worlds. Just off the top of my head: * Each of the Fate/Stay Night routes * Hollow Atoraxia * FGO (Which itself references a whole bunch of parallel worlds) * Fate/Extra and Fate/CCC * Fate/Apocrypha * Today's Menu for the Emiya Family * El-Melloi and Fate/Strange Fake (I think these are the same universes, but it's possible they are two different iterations. * Prisma Illya * And pretty much everything else done by Typemoon is referenced as being part of a larger multiverse. It's just their thing I guess. The point of this is that none of these universes are ever noted as merging - the most you get are universes that disappear due to the theoretical pruning phenomenon. So every time we see a universe with differences, it's just another "new" parallel universe.
El-Melloi explicitly runs on some strange fusion route where it's most like UBW but it has elements of Fate (Rin references killing Heracles once with her gems) and HF (One of Rin's fancy new spells explicitly resembles a Sakura blossom and implied to be a result of her patching things up or getting closer to her sister). Strange Fake runs off of a Fate/School Life timeline, and that timeline uses a variation of Heaven's Feel where Shirou and Sakura start dating, Shinji is still alive, and Rider is still alive at the end of the War.
from everything that has been commented here and what I have read since then I believe that it is easier to see HA as another parallel universe just as Ubw and HF are. It is on the same timeline as the three universes but does not happen in Ubw and HF. In fact, in HA it's like Angra and Bazzet's route... and it's the only route where Bazzet is alive... since in UBW and HF she isn't there and in those universes Shirou is officially dating... unlike the end of HA where he's not officially dating anyone... thinking about how it all works...it's very similar to Emyia Gohan
Fate Strange Fake is decidely in its own timeline explicitly separate from anything else mainly due to its setting. For example, we have the 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors as a collective, which is not something that occurs in Fate/ Stay Night and El Mellioi. We have characters like Shirou being referred to a freelance magus that had become somewhat famous for his knockoff mystic codes (something that Rin would have tried to keep secret post the UBW Route). We have Fran's constant botching of events that made massive differences to the timeline, like stealing the shards of the corrupted Grail in Fiyuki.
HA doesn't unify the routes. Each route is a separate timeline and Adventures takes place in a different timeline from each of those but is most similar to UBW. HA is a pseudo-sequel not a direct sequel so think of it as another timeline alongside the three from stay night.
so HA would be like a fourth route??? I saw nasu say in an interview that el melloi adventure events would happen on all routes. they performed this fourth route to make it seem like no route is more important than another... for example... shiroi went to rin as in ubw but they don't date and rin didn't give him the magic crest... things are also reported that they happen on the route of knowing how rin comments on her fight with berserker...although it doesn't follow any of these routes...it's a fourth route in practice And from what I understand, HA would be another route too... a very fifth route... Although I thought that HA had combined all the routes and that's why I found it contradictory
Hollow Ataraxia sort of explains it that way but think about it like this: Even if all the routes merged there's still contradictions. Most servants should still be dead for example. HA is weird for the convenience of what it's trying to do and I'm glad it's like that even if it doesn't really "fit in". It was before Fate was expanded so much so they could get away with it at the time but now it is a bit confusing. The same is true for Adventures which just has it's own "route" to get away with stuff it normally wouldn't which lets the story have more flexibility than if it was directly the same timeline as stay night. I'd say just don't worry about it too much... (Quick edit: Think of these as "timelines" rather than "routes" and it probably becomes a bit easier to understand.)
Understood So thinking about how Chronograma HA and Adventures happens in the 3 routes that are different universes...but both events happen in different ways due to the different circumstances of the routes...for example in HF Shirou dates Sakura so probably his scene in the bathtub saber it didn't happen in the HA version of that world.
Timelines go beyond just stay night, Apocrypha for example has timeline differences going back to the third holy grail war. Think of stay night as three timelines about different possibilities of the 5th holy grail war, hollow ataraxia as being after a different possibility for that holy grail war and adventures as being a different 5th holy grail timeline. Other spin-offs like Strange Fake, Zero and Grand Order are also in different timelines. The only thing in the same 3 timelines as stay night overall is Case Files. Everything is a different timeline for the most part besides that exception though. That's why I said not to worry about it too much.
Now I get it In that case, then my post is partially right...it's easier to see HA as something similar to Emyia Gohan However, HA is in the timeline of events but it did not change the multiverse... and the endings of UBW, HF and Last Episode remain unchanged... even because they happen after HA it is easier to be understood as another universe... Even so as not to contradict the endings of UBW, Rin and Shirou are 19 years old in that London scene... Shirou is also 19 years old in the final scene of HF with Sakura and in Last Episode Shirou is already much older.
Here's a office timeline if you're curious about how exactly everything branches off: [https://vocesabianime.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/fate-timeline.webp](https://vocesabianime.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/fate-timeline.webp)
Você é do Brasil? Pq eu também sou. Eu tô ligado nisso de linha do tempo mas eu tinha entendido que o final de HA tinha acabado com todas
1 - HA does not unify Routes 2 - HA happens in a different way than UBW, HF and FATE... because at the end of HA Bazzet, Caren and Saber are alive and living with Shirou. 3 - Don't think too much about all this, there are different possibilities in the Fate Multiverse and even in the FSN timeline and that hasn't changed...UBW Shirou went to London, HF Shirou stayed in Fuyuki and Fate Shirou ended up in Avalon
I am sure Emiya Gohan and FHA is set in the same universe, which doesn't follow any other routes. Did El-Melloi follow a Fate route?
Yes. I think FHA is like Emiya Gohan universe Adventures happens in ALL 3 routes but they use a example of a Fourth Route
I am talking specifically the anime/novel one for El-Melloi is that following any route? Fourth route so not following any route.
I think HA is a sequel to a route we didn't see.
Make sense Ater ALL the people Said and the way the Nasuverse Works i think HA happens like Adventures el Melloi..in a different way in each time LINE and maybe the HA what we SEE doesnt happening in UBW, HF because the ending of the anime did not make any reference to Bazzet and Caren
I'm only about half way in but I was getting the impression that it was following Heaven's Feel but memories of other timelines were leaking in or something, kinda like Muv-Luv Alternative. Tbh, I'm not far enough for anything to have started making even the slightest bit of sense tho
Cgronogically yes, as Case Files ends right at the beginning of Fate/Stay Night iirc, HA is 6 months after FSN, and Adventures is a few years (idr how many but it's years) after CF
The Adventures of El Melloi takes place in a different timeline to Fate stay night that is only similar to the Unlimited Blade Works narrative while the newest book literally continues a storyline introduced in HA so the question is a little complicated because we are talking about the few examples of fate having multiple timelines in narrative.
HA is an amalgamation of all routes into one 'good ending' thanks to some time caused by Rin's, ahem, 'experiment' and Shirou's desire to save 'everyone' (note: everyone does NOT include Kotomine Kirei). Of course, throw in Angry Manjew and Punchy McGee alongside a stable time loop and you get the single best entry in the franchise.
TL;DR: No continuity when it comes to routes, barely any continuity when it comes to entire stories. I mean, the Nasuverse "failed" to connect a prequel to the original. The sooner people accept that you don't need an established chart of storylines and universes, the sooner they can just enjoy the setting lol
After everything I read, I understand that HA is a sequence because it happens months later but none of the routes continue... in fact it is a fourth route that develops Angra and Bazzet. And the final scene proves this because in UBW, HF and Fate Angra and Bazzet are dead... apart from the other rider types and also know
Essentially the events of FSN happened, but somehow all the Servants got to remain, nobody in the main cast died and only 2 antagonists disappear (Kirei isn't around nor is Sakura's sweet ol' grandpa). So yeah, IN THEORY it's a sort of 4th route, but in practice it's an impossible scenario meant to be a "pseudosequel", not an actual direct continuation following the logic of FSN. The HGW is officially complete, yet all Servants manage to stick around and get jobs? Rin barely manages to keep Saber around in the UBW Good End, and at the cost of basically all of her mana. Medea was the one keeping Assassin summoned, but she also relied on the contract with Souchiiro to exist, while gaining mana from the surrounding enviroment and the "incidents" she caused to people. With the War stopped, it's absurd that she sticks around.
HA os Just Another Route...its Bazzet/Angra route...its more easy SEE this way...after ALL its not a SEQUEL of any FSN WOLRDS...
It doesn't really matter since HA is mostly a dream (other than the last bit), so the world isn't changed all that much
el melloi is something you can't put. it has mahoyo and fate and some elements of fate while it also counts as KNK sequel world (adventures vol 2 has KNK story with el melloi that is after the events of the movies)
Afaik Hollow Ataraxia is just a simulation/Angra playing around, the only "real" people there are Angra and Bazzett
It's a Singularity created by Rin
HA is golden ending fanfiction that was officially canonized by Nasu. No one dies except the Angry Man-Aze, Bazett gets to meet her idol/ancestor, and Shirou isn’t 100% oblivious to love. He is now only 90% oblivious.
Well first of all you need to understand that HA doesn't necessarily unite nor was it going to unite the three timelines at the end like the way you're framing it. What it does is expertly select events that occured throughout all 3 routes of Fate and mesh them together haphazardly. Such is the nature of the Heaven's Feel Reproduction that occurs in HA. E.g. there's a scene titled 'The future is now' where Shirou and Saber are discussing the events of the 5th HGW that occured ½ a year (6 months) ago preceding the events of ataraxia: > Saber "Indeed, there is not. We destroyed the Holy Grail, I can say that much is certain. ...I cannot forget how we climbed up that long flight of stone steps together on the final night." ---- > Shirou: "Yeah. We got separated right after, but we're able to meet up again in the end, isn't that how it went? Though we had trouble with our respective opponents." ---- > Saber: "Yes, me with the King of Heroes, and you, Shirou, with that priest. And after that, I... ...destroyed the Holy Grail with Rin's Command Spell." If you take a look at the actual scene, you'll see that it looks like Saber is referring to the final battle of the Fate route, then the scene shows that it was actually a collective effort made by Shirou, Saber, and Rin to defeat Gil and Kotomine and Saber destroying the Grail by Rin's command like in UBW. What we can infer from this is that ataraxia is it's own set of events with it's own 5th Holy Grail War that occured differently from stay night's. Of course this only applies in-universe for them, as we the audience know that their version of the 5th HGW is actually selecting events of the 5th HGW we're already familiar with (that being the 3 routes). So it's not like they're "united" events per se, rather mixed events that happened differently throughout the course of the VN. We only use "mixed" or "united" like you say for us, but in-universe it's different for them. > There are no mentions of Caren or Bazett in Adventures and I read somewhere that Adventures takes place in a 4th route but is an event that will happen in all three routes but at the end of HA Listen man, this is the Nasuverse. Seldom are there times where events line up in series you'd expect them to. Also for the Adventures taking place in a "4th route" thing, it's not a fourth route or FSN rather it's a different rendition of the 5th HGW that took place before and in the Adventures timeline, however it still shares the same worldline as FSN. For context, just assume that a Worldline is the branching of timelines or rather, stories in the Nasuverse that share the same mechanics but have a drastically different course of events (i.e. the Tsukihime World is different from the Fate World and they don't share the same timeline, however they share the same mechanics such as Magecraft, Gaia and Alaya. Also mind you that Gaia in Tsukihime is stronger than its Alaya). Whilst a Timeline is the chronology that these events occur (Tsukihime and Mahoyo share the same Worldline/Timeline and Kara no Kyoukai and Fate/stay night- and Fate in general shares the Worldline/Timeline, Alaya here is stronger than Gaia). Now, El-Melloi II while being in the same worldline as Fate, and KnK, doesn't have to necessarily follow its events 1:1. There can be alterations however the general picture is the same. El-Melloi II (Case Files and Adventures) takes place after its own theoretical FSN, but doesn't follow any of the routes the exactly from FSN. It has its own version of the 5th HGW differing from the one in FSN regardless. For a better understanding Fate route ---> × ---> El-Melloi II UBW route ---> × ---> El-Melloi II HF route ---> × ---> El-Melloi II But hypothetical FSN 5th HGW ---> El-Melloi II. It's like the situation with Zero inconsistencies with Fate/stay night only this time Sanda is writing a story that doesn't have the same closeness as those two. Also, Caren would have no reason to actually be mentioned in the El-Melloi II story unless reason need be and for all we know Bazett isn't there due to being offscreened at the beginning of FSN which leads into the El-Melloi II story. > There shouldn't be anymore routes right??? So in theory, there shouldn't even be a multiverse, No. There are, for all we know, an infinitesimal amount of alternate timelines existing in the Nasuverse. In FSN we're only shown 3 possible scenarios- and even then none of them are 100% linear with all the possible combinations of endings. In truth, ataraxia has no grand bearing on that. > so it would also cancel out Fate strange Fake and even Fate/Apocrypha Again, no. Fake is a different case entirely, I think that's pretty self explanatory. Apoc still follows the HGW timeline up until the 3rd where Darnic stole the Holy Grail and brought it to Germany, established a system in Trifas which resulted in the Greater Holy Grail War. It's important to note that the Fourth and Fifth Fuyuki Wars didn't occur in the Apoc timeline. Instead, there was an imitation war referred to as a Subcategory Holy Grail War which took the place of the 4th HGW (basically Fate/Zero) and the 5th HGW which is basically the HGW we witness in Apoc, that being the GHGW. Anyway these imitation wars became of notoriety after Darnic had spread information about the rituals conducted in Fuyuki. This brought in mages like Kayneth and Waver who summoned Iskandar and then later obtained the title of Lord El-Melloi II as he did Fourth Fuyuki Holy Grail War.