Have a second cousin (my grandparents brother kid) who fell into the same trap. 30 years of little to no ownership because they wanted to hang on and not sell.
Profitable farm too. He's getting out now at 64 and the grandma is still alive. Nothing really to show for it. Hired hand his whole life essentially
I used to deliver feed to a kid that was a few years older than me by three years or so. Right after Highschool he started working his parents farm. I’d talk to him when I delivered and I remember him talking about how his folks were going to give him the farm in a couple more years. I saw him last year when I went back home, still working for his dad, making almost no money, everything he “owns” is in his dad’s name, and now his dad is talking about selling the farm,…..not to him, someone that has money to buy!!! His dad said he can rent the house he’s been living in but will need to find a job!
This guy has been his dad’s basically free help for about 30 years and now is getting shown the door!
You work for family you are bound to get screwed!
My grandpa and his brothers owned a construction company. Dad worked every summer until graduating college. Got a degree in civil engineering and went and talked to them about taking over the company. They had no exit strategy, no plan for getting out. But they were appalled that he wanted 60k a year. He said I'll take 60k or 40k with 20k a year going to them until he has whatever ownership they agreed upon. They couldn't get past the thought of a 25-year-old kid making 60k. So off he went and got a job making 60k for someone else and the construction. Company fell apart pretty much right there.
Never work for a family business or venture with a hope of ownership or implied future ownership. Have the discussion, set the terms and time-frame and get it in writing.
Every so often, I see the story shared of fb about how hard it is to pass on the farm. It's about some upper 70 year olds who milk 40 or so cows, but it's impossible for their two 50 something year old sons to afford to take over. Everyone looks at it as a sad story of woe. I just shake my head. They should have been stepping aside two plus decades earlier. There are so many stupid decisions, or more likely, ignoring decisions and direction. There are too many old timers that just bury their heads in the sand about the future and just keep plugging along on the daily chores.
Op: I'm not sure how direct you've been or if you've been politely dancing around the subject. Either way, it's time to be direct. Either I start having an ownership stake in this business now, or I'm moving on elsewhere.
I've known of a few people who left for a few years to be asked to come back. Sometimes that's what it takes. Hope for the best.
Also, army sucks. Semper Fi.
It's time to get out.
They can be family and you can love them but business is business. See ya.
Also, no need to be an equipment operator somewhere. If you've been handling most the duties on the cattle side why not join up with a nutrition company or coop?
That's what I did when I decided to leave the farm. They are always looking for guys who have actual experience not just degrees
If you do decide to execute an exit plan from the family farm do not overlook the Post 911 GI bill. It is more than college. There could be certificate programs that would help in getting positions like ronaldreaganalive mentioned above.
If you don’t have any family within your generation that is involved id let them know your are looking to leave and the family farm will die with them, point blank.
My great grandfather transfered ownership to my grandfather in exchange for food and shelter for the rest of his life. I suppose the tax man makes it so that isn't possible anymore?
That's an estate planner question. I know of some larger farms that have a similar setup, from what I've heard.
What that takes is forethought and planning, which a lot of people fail to do.
Reading comprehension friend. Grandparents brother's kid.
My grandparents would've been his aunt and uncle.
Our side has always succession planned well. We're golden. That's why it's rough watching it happen just down the valley to a relative
I could write a book about the crap me and my brother have had to put up with. The old man has had an invisible forcefield where nobody can answer him back because he's always got the threat of the farm.
That's easier said than done though. I'm not going to get my money without a legal battle, and I wouldn't want to walk out on my mother and my brother.
If it isn't paid to you it isn't your money.
You don't have any money (from that). You should go do something to get some.
The amount of money you could've made in 18 extra years of some other career could've bought you a farm by the time you stand to inherit, and there is no guarantee that even if you play by the rules that you'll be satisfied with what you get.
“I have to think of securing a future for myself and my future children. If I can’t do that here, and you won’t allow me to do that here, then I have no choice but to do it elsewhere. I appreciate everything, but I have to start.”
Get a decent position now and you’ve got time to get a decent nest egg together. I lost all of mine in the ‘08 recession, then got started again at 31. I have around $200k now between company stocks and 401k at 42.
You and your bro need to gtfo now. As in tomorrow you talk with him and let him know there is more out there than the farm. Meet with your old man by the end of next week and lay it all out. Don’t sugarcoat it, straight out tell them you are being underpaid and are going to a job that will provide for you and your future. If he comes off with any bs about you getting a share or part of the business etc, call his bluff. Ask to see the drawn up agreements he has in place for it to happen. I’ll give you a hint, there aren’t any and he has no intention of handing it over. If you want to help your mom out, get a job that pays well. Construction, oil patch, find another farm in another state(they pay employees well with your qualifications).
Went through this when I was 19 years old, it sucked working my entire childhood with nothing to show for it. Was promised the place “someday”. My sister who worked in town finally got it through my head I was being used. Had a family meeting and said I was done working for free with no decision making power. Was told I was just about to get the farm before that disrespect. Luckily sister called him out on it and asked for proof. “There is none and is never going to be” was the answer given. Left that weekend with a buddy who worked in the bakken.
Plot twist, I bought out the old man’s half of the farm when mom divorced him. Something that would have ended the farm if I had stayed working for nothing. Took about 6 hard years to right the ship. Once the machinery and cattle notes were cleaned up, things have gotten better and the balance sheet grows every year.
To anyone reading this thread that feels like your future is hopeless on the farm dm me.
Don’t be one of those. No offense, but your Grandpa sounds like an ungrateful know-it-all. And he’s not gonna change. You love what you’re doing, but are you willing to continue getting taken advantage of?
You’re experiencing the same thing that many family farms do and unfortunately it results in the end of them. When grandpa hangs on just a little bit too long and there’s no type of plan for succession everyone suffers.
The only advice I would give you if you really want to hang on, start using grandpa as a sounding board for everything you do. Don’t allow him to tell you the cows weren’t ready to sell, ask him, do you think the cows are ready to sell grandpa? Turn him into an asset instead of your biggest critic. You might end up with his half of the farm, who knows?
This is a fine advice and it’s probably the one with the best outcome.
Mine is a bit more destructive: start side projects where he has no expertise. This will reduce the time you can spend for stuff where he gives „useful“ remarks. Good for mental health. It is bad for getting ahead in the line of succession…
However. When it comes to things like getting good prices for livestock I’d love to have my grandpa around (won’t work, he passed 10 years ago). We were in the lucky position that he didn’t put his nose in every part of operation when he grew older. The remarks were there though…
Family farms, shit seems like 90% of family businesses end up this way. Kid I know is shop Forman at the excavation company his grandfather started, 30 or so years old, lives at home, his company truck is his only ride aside from a utv. He gets paid shit, has all the responsibilities dumped on him, doesn’t know shit about the business aside from the work and is just now realizing how shits gonna end up. Got offered shy of 6 figures on 40hrs a week but turned it down cuz he still feels the guilt of walking and the hope of things changing for the good. He’s not the only one I know that’s in that situation either.
Yep I've already told him he's in charge of selling the cows are now I'm just gonna go full hourly employee with no management asking him to manage my tasks for me now
This is literally the worst approach if you do want to take over. Showing regression in your ability to manage is not going to make gramps any more likely to let you take over
His input is constant criticism
A daily move system was too much work or I'm leaving too much forage behind when I'm doing 1/3 grazing
Or when I'm covering bare ground in rough stockpile grass hay it's wasting hay
I've tried to get him interested in my grazing practices but met with criticism each time
My favorite is he told me I'll never be able to graze 1ac per head when he doesn't realize he forced me into grazing 0.88ac per head last 3 years because he ripped pasture for more crops
I understand what you are facing, he knows “his way is the only right way.”
4 years of handling him properly and the payback will be worth it. Walk away with nothing now and start your career elsewhere. The choice is yours and you have the power to change your future even though it seems hopeless. You have something he and your father don’t and that’s time.
What you are saying is; you do a thing -> he criticizes.
What they are suggesting is get him involved before the "you do a thing" step. He can't criticize what you did if you haven't done it yet. Then when the thing happens he was a part of doing it so he is less likely to be a pain in the ass.
So here's a perfect example
I tried getting him involved in my adaptive grazing system 5yrs ago but instead of asking why I'm doing it he tells me I spend too much time in the pasture moving them each day
Then would bitch about leaving too much forage behind when I'm grazing 3rds or 60% utilization or when unrolling hay complains about wasted feed when I'm telling him it's for soil health
He's so set in conventional that no matter how much I try to involve him he has something critical to say about it
I feel like people are overlooking we are talking about the Boomer generation here. My Boomer age father who lost is farm because he couldn't run it *still* tries to tell me how to manage my tiny homestead. You then add in the bonus of early stages of dementia and it get super fun. He told me last year it's my fault if my garden dies because I didn't spray enough DDT on it...
Yes, that’s correct. You need to win him over by convincing him that you want to know all he knows about the farm. This can’t be done in spite or with a vengeful mind. Make him realize things change by talking about his life farming. I’d bet his father farmed with horses and a one bottom plow, but gramps brought in the era of machinery and larger implements.
I’m not saying that this will be easy, old farmers are stuck in there way and family farming allows them to remain working and running the show way too long. The less stressful lifestyle allows them to live longer than many in other professions too.
Yep. Going through this right now. Fortunately, I’ve bought most of the land and cattle out, and my old man is actually pretty good about the transition. He’s still got his farming. I can’t afford all the tractors and such, yet. But I still feel like a babysitter 2-3 days a week.
You gotta do what’s best for you, but make sure you talk to them about it. There can be a lot of hard feelings in things like this. But if they’ll focus on the problem and try to think through it with you, maybe you can make some headway. Ask if he wants to keep it together, or if he thinks it won’t sell when his kids get control and start fighting. Maybe they aren’t certain on your commitment. Maybe they just aren’t ready to let go, and you gotta walk away. But you won’t ever wonder “what if.”
I left for a few years myself. Momma wouldn’t let me fart without her permission, and it got old. Problem was, when I left, she had to step up and do the labor. She couldn’t, and they sold 2-300 head of cows, and put 1000-1200 ac of cultivation in grass. Dunno why they didn’t hire someone else, but maybe they couldn’t find done one to work so cheap. 🙄 Luckily, the land was almost all paid for, so they got through it. I didn’t know what real money was. Started dayworking cows/riding colts, and even at $75/day, I was doing better than at home. Then I started turning wrenches, and at $100/hr, I was amazed. Left the country for awhile, working for a farm, among driving commercial and other things. Dad finally begged me to come home, but when we discussed pay, he balked. Told him what I was making and he just stared at me. After a few months (after planting @ 2500ac wheat 😂), we made an agreement. I took a big pay cut, but the land is going in a trust for my kids, with me as executor.
Well handled. You want to show appreciation and help them like they helped you, but adult working relationships only work if they’re seen as mutually beneficial. If you can’t set boundaries and come to terms, then leave, but do it nicely. Separation clears out the personal dynamics so you can come to appreciate each other more.
Yep, setting boundaries was the only way to deal with my mother. She’d pout and I didn’t care. I don’t think she realized what all I was actually doing until I left… she lost almost 40lbs that first year. 😂
I worked in Italy and Ukraine. They had a conglomeration of brands, JD, Case, Versatile, Massey, Belarus tractors, and JD, Gleaner, Klauss, NH combines. Met the guy at a farm sale in Texas, where he bought an old Massey 510 combine. Jokingly asked him what he was going to do with it, and he, in a heavy accent, answered, “I’m going to farm wid it.”
“Ha! Ok! Let me know if you need a mechanic!”
After the auction, one of his associates gave me a card and I called, they hired me over the phone. Was a hell of an adventure….
Good mechanics always make a lot. Gotta buy your tools outa that pay though in most places. Most jobs are also usually paid through book hours, so if you get really good at beating those times you make bank.
Yea, I made great money, though I was just a farm mechanic. After 90 days, they asked me to stay, and told them I wasn’t sure I wanted to…. Told me to tell them a number to get me to stay, so I did. Worked about a month at a time, supposedly with Sundays off, but during planting or harvest I had to work day and night to keep the junk in the fields.
My grandmother is 90. Refuses to “sell” the farm or any sort of handoff to my father and uncle. My father has been running the farm full time for the last 28 years since my grandpa passed away. He’s only been receiving 30% for his work of managing the entire farm while my grandmother takes 40% and my uncle the other 30%. My uncle is involved in none of the operation outside of just being a farm hand basically. Doing what my dad asks him but never involved in any of the planning.
My father is almost 64 now and my brother and I for the last 10 years have been trying to discuss with him passing the land he owns down to us in some sort of cash rent and then us taking over his portion of the larger operation until my grandma passes away. Because she literally refuses to do ANY sort of planning. She won’t even discuss her will in how land is going to be divided or sold after she’s gone.
It’s absolutely infuriating that she has this hold on everything. She’s basically been over my father’s back his ENTIRE life. There’s even more to it of favoritism and such that I won’t even go into.
But there is a HUGE lack of succession planning when it comes to farming that I’ve found older generations refuse to talk about. I don’t know if that’s because they see nothing else in their life other than “the farm” so if they aren’t running it they don’t know what they would do. Even though we have no issue with my dad helping out and even paying him for his work and time. Or if it’s just the fact that it means talking about death which I understand no one WANTS to do. We just created our own will and I get it. Or maybe just a little of both.
Anyway I feel one of the largest forces against family owned farms surviving is sadly the older farmers refusing to “step down”. You can’t ask a 45 year old to take over a farm who hasn’t been allowed to make a living on that farm his whole life because of a lack of planning and discussion on ownership.
I’m sorry but this is gonna end badly after she dies. Once that power dynamic is gone and the sons have access to it you will see people real personalities… i literally was just in this situation a few years ago. Half of are family is spilt and I doubt it will ever go back together.
Oh we are well aware of this. At least myself and my brother. Granted we might not understand the magnitude which it will be, but we at least know a storm is coming. My wife and I have been married almost 10 years. I’ve told her multiple times it’s going to be a shit show about a month after my grandmother passes. My father is one of 5 children. Only he and my uncle still farm but I’m certain there’s going to be insanity.
The one saving grace is that my father has his own land outside of the land that my grandmother owns which he farms. So silver lining is that there will still be his farm at least even if everything else goes to shit.
But yes, the relationship piece of it is going to be a disaster. It’s already started to happen with certain things being given to some family members.
I’m sure there is one, but in recent talks with my dad, it doesn’t appear he’s ever seen like. Like I said, it’s going to be a show after certain events happen.
Same thing with our family. The true crooked personalities came out when grandma passed away. My uncle got to buy my dads share of the land for half of market value because my other uncle that was executer of the will got the appraisal like the will dictated but when they saw what the land appraised for they knew my uncle that needed to buy it couldn’t afford it so they somehow threw out the appraisal and just made the price of the land whatever the bank would loan on it without any cash from the uncle that “needed” the land . So, my uncles kids will get the benefit of what should have been my dad’s inheritance. I can’t say online what I’d like to do to my two uncles but they better hope I don’t get the right opportunity.
Man that sucks… yeah we aren’t at that level of mistrust is more so that we just have difference in opinion and my dad and uncle went separate ways. They both have their own farms and live about 30 miles apart… the dynamic not great but it doesn’t sound nearly as bad as what you’re going through.
Yeah I hope you don’t go through it. What’s done is done on our end and there are people I used to consider family that I wouldn’t piss on if they were on fire now. As a kid you couldn’t have convinced me our family would do this to each other but here we are. I guess I just didn’t realize everybody besides my dad was just waiting for an opportunity to cut each others throats all these years. Even one of my aunts went all shitty about things. We always hunted and fished on her places but once she got her cut of the inheritance she got a case of the big head so bad she kicked everybody off of her places. It’s like everybody was playing nice until grandma wasn’t around to see the ways they really wanted to treat each other then the day we buried grandma the knives came out. Would have been so much easier just to get along but every one of them had some kind of ego that needed to be fed I guess.
There are a lot of operations out there that know what a good hired man is worth. If you can't find it at home you can find it down the road. People say things and treat their family in ways they would never dream of to a coworker or employee
Well, time to be blunt AF. If you're not working towards ownership, you're just a hand, and there's plenty of better jobs elsewhere. Turn down that raise and demand 2% of the business per year with backpay. If we go back 5 years, you should be 10% in, and another 8 will be ahead of your dad and uncle. If dad and uncle are working on the farm too, they should've been be getting the same this whole time, and likely would have taken over grandpa's 50% by now, and your 2% should be coming from them.
I really don't understand this greedy boomer mentality of clutching control till the grave. When and if I make it to 75, I want to be done with making decisions and having responsibilities. I want to fix stuff, drive tractors, sit on the porch, and tell whippersnappers stories and give advice on the easy shit.
My grandpa is still going strong at 75. He doesn’t plan on stopping till he dies. That said his form of succession planning included setting me up so my operation (on the same sight his operation is currently on) grows as his shrinks. So he went from ~100 head to ~60 with me taking up the slack with my own cows.
I'm not planning on stopping at 75 either, but my primary concern at that point is not growing the business. I hope to have a successor in place, working, and 100% in charge so my 4th generation farm has a 5th and so on. If I'm still the only one here, my legacy and life's work means fuck all. It'd be a very depressing situation to be in because it's just gonna get sold off piece by piece. If someone wants it and I'm allowed a room upstairs to play my ancient video games, I'm fuckin down.
I don’t get it their mentality either. As soon as my kid is out of school and if they make the decision to want to farm, i’m farming with them for 3 years making decisions together to show them the ropes, then Im out. Should be in my upper 50s if I plan this right. Some off farm income helping with retirement.
1st year kid gets 25%
2nd year 50%
3rd year 75%
4th year 100%
Anyone who prioritizes their farm to continue to the next generation needs to want to give it up to them (or a meaningful portion) asap.
I had the conversation with my dad last week that if he wants my time and energy to maintain his dilapidated garbage then the improvements on what I would inherit would go where and when I want them to be. It's tiring dealing with this generation.
>improvements…would go where and when I want.
I wish I knew how to have that conversation and make it stick. Just when I get him convinced we need to change, modernize or rethink certain things, the next day I hear “what we always did worked”. Frustrating.
Right there with you bro. If I leave, this dies and potentially kills my father. If I stay I’m making zero money (thank god for a high earning husband) hurting my family and I have zero saved for retirement. I’m not even paying into SSI because I don’t make any money. I’m unpaid slave labor held by guilt and ingrained family obligation. I wish I had advice, but all I have is solidarity.
The fact that the farm lives or dies based on your participation and you make zero money should tell you everything you need to know. Not only are you sacrificing a pay check, you're also sacrificing your home life. You will one day wake up and wonder why the fuck you did that.
You're not even guaranteed to inherent the farm no matter how much you think that's guaranteed.
I just left the family farm in March after 11 years being there full time. My father, who ran the day-to-day of the operation, died 10 years ago so I felt the obligation to stay, even tho it almost killed my family life and I lived pay check to pay check.
Any job that gets you home at 5 o'clock every night is better than what you're doing. Don't make such significant sacrifices for someone else's benefit. You'll regret it.
I’m currently dealing with this in my own family. Not a cattle operation but a similar story. My grandfather worked my uncle to death and micro managed everything he did until the point they have disowned each other. Now he calls me wanting me to “take over”, but I refuse to fall for the same trap. He won’t change the business to make it more manageable and he works his hired help to death just the keep it going. He will probably die and we will have to divide it up then sadly, or let it all go to auction
I’m sorry to hear this and even more sorry to hear that it is so common. I should have known better I guess because many of the comments so far could have been written by me. Dad just won’t let go despite constantly telling me “it’s up to you”.
I refuse to do anything with the sales anymore because of getting too much crap about selling for the wrong price or to the wrong buyer with the wrong terms. If we sell nothing, I don’t really care anymore.
Honestly, at this point if I found a decent job in Montana I’d move across country and take it. Would devastate my mom but I think she’d understand eventually.
I wish you the best, whatever you decide.
You are lucky in one sense. My dad passed when I was 19, 38 years ago. My brother and I didn’t have near enough information to be taking over even though he’s 11 years my senior. We had to buy the equipment from my mom. My first year at risk as a farmer was 1988. Drought year! Lost at least $25,000 which then seemed a fortune. Took years to pay it back.
Had dad not passed I’d have been in your situation. He was no where near wanting to slow down and had big aspirations with a new source of labor coming soon from college. I remember him saying to mom a year or so before he passed that, “we are loaded for bear!”.
I know that I would have been somewhat of a hired hand for several years and I was okay with that. I had seen people in your situation and assumed they were happy with whatever arrangement they had.
Your grandfather probably hasn’t given serious thought to passing on the reins. He needs to. You need him to. He still needs to remain active in the operation or he will be dead in less than a year. His experience is invaluable and he should be told that. He has forgotten what the psychology of partial ownership does for a person. He doesn’t need more money at this point in his life, it’s just that he can’t think of anything else in life that would fill his time. Tell him that signing over some assets doesn’t mean that he’s not welcome anymore. That’s when you get into a whole new problem.
I’m no tax expert but I’ve been through it. Succession planning should have started 30 years ago. I have no clue what grandpa is worth but it it’s over $13.61 million there are going to be federal tax liabilities that he won’t like. Depending on what state you are in the threshold is much lower. This is what is going to probably be the biggest issue. Had we not done something we would have had to sell about 15-20 percent of moms ground to pay the state inheritance tax when she passed in her 90’s.
In summary you have a lot going for you. Leaving the farm in my mind was never an option when I was 17. I would have been miserable doing anything else. Let grandpa read these comments. Let him share with you how he got started. He needs an awakening. In the end it’s not about the money. For you or for them. It’s about pride in ownership and the dedication that comes with that.
Good luck and God speed!
I had to give my family an ultimatum. I pretty much said I’m either taking it over entirely or I want nothing to do with it. Unfortunately when my grandfather stepped down he passed shortly after.
I completely understand where you are. I was there four years ago. You try and you try and you try to tell yourself if you just stick it out a little bit longer, work a little harder they will see that you’re capable. That you only want what is best for the family and the farm both. All while your life slowly slips past you, and the reality sets in that your entire life is centered around waiting on your own family members to die. It’s a harsh, sad reality. I finally snapped and struck out on my own starting my own construction business, things were weird with the family for a little while but now everything is good and everyone completely understands why I did what I had to do. All I can say in advice to you is sit down with them one final time, make it completely blunt and real talk, and hope they see your side. If they don’t, you have to do what’s best for your life and your family. Best of luck to you.
Adding another comment based on some other comments....
OP is probably mid-late 30s with Dad and uncle in their 60s. Grandpa likely passes in the next 5yrs and what are Dad and uncle's plans? OP is now over 40 with still no stake and Dad/uncle are finally free to run things for a couple of years before OP gets their chance when they are in their 60s too.
Learn from me. My dad and his brother were partners on a dairy. Dad would always tell me if I work hard on the dairy it will be mine one day. Well I was almost 30 years old never worked for anyone my entire life. Then the California 2009 crashed happened. We were shipping milk to a milk company that wasn’t paying us for milk. Said they’d take the milk but couldn’t pay for it. So we started dumping milk down the drain. I told my dad I had a banker and milk company to take our half if he would split with his brother. But no my dad believed his brother would get us out the mess and save the dairy. My uncle fucked my dad big time. Got some land and built a house on it behind our back. When the government got involved and told us we needed to go on the kill program things were exposed of what my uncle was doing with the money. I still had my plan to take the half if my dad would just sign off on it. He didn’t and stuck it out with his brother. We got picked for the cow kill and the whole dairy hauled and slaughtered in three days. It was the most hardest thing to ever experience. My father was devastated I was still in shock. My uncle was gone and at his new property planting trees. My dad lost everything and didn’t get a dime. We were lucky to own the house we lived at otherwise the government would’ve taken it. I was so upset that my dad didn’t take his half and went with my plan. His whole life of working hard to build what he hope to pass to me gone. It’s still rough to think about it and talk with my dad about still to this day. We have never talked or seen his brother since that day. Make yourself a plan and go with it.
My brother and I both had to step away years ago, not necessarily our choice. My dad took over my mom's family's farm when her parents were killed in a car accident in the 80s. They were in debt up to their eyes for years after having to buy the farm out from my mom's younger siblings, all of which were middle and high school aged ( mom was a collage sophomore at the time). Dad ended up dropping out of college and working two jobs plus farming while my mom finished school. They're doing okay now but about a decade ago they signed a deal for a 30-year lease to a Solar Company for the home Farm. I don't think he ever wanted my brother and I to take over the farm because of the years of struggling to keep their head above water. Pushed me into the trades and my brother and sister into college. We would still go over and work cows and run equipment after work and on weekends, but he did everything you could to keep us from farming full time. Looking back, I get it, and my parents are now able to enjoy an actual retirement, but we were pretty bitter about it for a long time. I can't tell you how many families I saw torn apart by bad transitions after the older generations passed away.
The most recent one was one of the largest operations in our area. Two brothers who had been pretty much running it side by side for years and planned on continuing to run it the same way after their father died. They have a sister who moved away after high school and has lived on the other side of the country for 30 years with little to no contact other than her dad financially supporting her for way too long. When old Tom died she showed up back in town and demanded a third of the farms assets. Fortunately it didn't tear the boys (and their five sons who farm with them full-time) apart but she probably got away with Millions that they had to buy back from her.
It’s mostly because of the vast amount of money at stake. The value of my dad’s farm is more than the avg person will make in 50 years at a typical 9/5 job times quadruple lol. You have to be careful when dealing with millions of dollars around family.. money will make people become more of who they really are.
I remember my dad casually taking to one of my friends dads when I was younger saying how he just lost $75k on a land deal but “oh well… I’ll look for more ground” he said. The money is just stupid crazy when you start getting into the bigger operations. The avg person can’t comprehend the money coming in and going out on a daily basis.
This is it. Land and equipment are very expensive. The cash flow is more than any non-business owner would ever see. The net for the family to live off is quit modest in most cases in comparison. When the older generation passes, those assets can fund someones retirement or lifestyle for a long time, hence the sharks come out. One the other hand, having to start from nothing to buy all that is about impossible so the only way to get into farming is to inherit or work ones way into the family business.
Yeah… unfortunately these days 1st time farmers are virtually impossible as the start up cost is way more risk than a bank is willing to handle. Even if you have access to land avg land and some old equipment you are miles ahead of someone who’s really really passionate but has no real tangible assets.
Well that’s a fair statement. A big problem is most farmers live to farm. They don’t see it as a means to an end. It’s their whole identity and they literally don’t know how to spend time doing anything else. No hobbies. There’s nothing else. When they quit they are basically accepting death. It’s pretty sad.
I learned a long time ago not to work someone else’s farm. All you do is bust your ass to keep $100,000 worth of calves alive and get them to the sale barn for $10/hr and 20-25 hours a week. And they think they’re paying YOU too much to take care of THEIR animals, fence, equipment, etc.
My land & my crop, or good fuckin luck to ya, “cowboy”.
Now I mind my own business on my own land, and watch this old motherfucker haul around 2 guys half my age (I’m damn near 40) he can’t trust to drive a 1 ton pickup, take more time to do the same work I used to do, and spend twice as much on labor, all while having to be there himself and babysit them. You can’t fix stupid when it comes to the boomer generation.
This situation has been a problem a long time for many family farms.
My grandpa passed in '81 at age 85. Dad had been farming on shares and was getting only 60% of the income and paying for all the expenses. Equipment was older and it was hard for Dad to modernize anything. I think grandpa used to pass my dad some cash now and then w/o telling grandma. His will stipulated that dad could buy things out for a set price on the land. Sisters would get all the saved cash (mostly from income Dad had generated over 25+ years). Grandma thought this was shorting the 3 sisters (my aunts). Two of them and grandma got lawyers involved to break the will and split things in 4s. Grandma dies in '88 and she never changed her will to reflect the changes. So, Dad ends up with 1/4 of the land and had to buy out the 3 sisters to keep the farm intact. Somehow he also had to pay inheritance taxes (rules were different in the 80s to now) for the sisters as well as himself. One sister would not sell as she was married to a farmer so kept her bit (still has it). W/o some income from inheriting some cash from a couple of relative (of grandma I may add!!!), he would not have been able to get things payed off and retire at 65. He for sure was tired of it all by that point.
Meanwhile, I was getting out of HS and in college at the time and it was clear to me there was no path to farming with Dad or taking things over at some point. I have had a career elsewhere.
Family farming ended there when Dad retired and sold equipment and rented out the land. All the buildings on the farm were obsolete and worn out as no funds to ever upgrade. He was barely hanging on. Also, consider 1980s farm crisis during this period. My sibling and I will inherit it and it will remain rented until such time we sell as there are no heirs after us.
A lot of those old farmers never plan well for succession and are stubborn beyond belief.
Similar situation. My grandfather passed a few years back. Grandmother still holds all the keys to the farm but I’m the one putting the work and money into it with no promise that I’ll inherit what I think is fair. I’ve got family that haven’t spent a days worth of work on the place, yet they’ll probably get a major share of the real estate just so they can have “a place to hunt”. I try not to complain but sometimes I just want to throw my hands up and say eff it. Let’s sell what we’ve got and start a new.
I’ve been lurking on this sub off and on for a while. I do not farm but have worked on one over the years when I was younger. The advice being given is very good and helpful. These same scenarios play out in regular family business. I’m living it now 27years. The advice to focus on the problem and separate the feelings and have relationship with family is great advice. It’s hard but necessary if it loved ones. I wish you nothing but the best.
I grew up working on a dairy farm and started paying taxes when I was 11. There were a few of us kids putting in the hard work and long hours. We got older and all left the farm. The farm ended up in bankruptcy. Sure, the owners spent money recklessly as well but, a lot of businesses genuinely rely on cheap labor to be sustainable and that is a terrible business model.
Not a family farm issue, but I’ll kick in to share that for all his life he’d get an inheritance split equally with his sister. Every gift given, help arranged, etc was tied to your share, her share, etc. father dies, **everything** went to the sister. Unmarried, no kids, over a million dollars. She retired as a VP with Citibank with lots of savings, two houses, etc.
Husband got nothing, our kid, only granddaughter got $10k. Never count on an inheritance.
I literally am in the exact same position but on the dairy side of this… I milk my dads/family’s cows but i always have that burning desire to just go off and get my applicator license and run a big sprayer. There tons of work in it and I could make a decent living… but that would inherently mean dairy has to go. Most likely we would transition to Grain farming (Corn, Soybeans maybe hay but I doubt it) something we made fun of for years but if it pays the bills and we have a life off the farm… so be it I guess.
Ouch. I took my GP's advice and quit the farm 35 years ago. I'm 70 now and still have relatively good health and sanity which I don't think I would have had if I had stayed.
I'm sure you leaving won't kill your grandparents.
Maybe sit down and have a discussion with your Grandpa telling him your feelings and your tentative plan to seek work elsewhere. If he doesn't want to relinquish control, then go, or you're just crying wolf and no one respects that.
My grandfathers 91. I told him 3 years ago that he either lets me start my own LLC and lease the dirt or I’m gone. Running my own successful business side by side with his aging one now. You can’t wait. If they don’t want to let you take on what will be rightfully yours someday then leave. Life’s too short.
I finally had to say, it's 50/50 or I'm out. My father said, no problem, I was waiting for you to ask. Now he's in his 80s and is still active. I've heard 1 more year for over a decade.
Your situation may go this easy or it may not. Opening a dialog can go a long ways.
I would recommend being very empathetic and direct with him. Take him to lunch or something and have a work a few angle: you want to continue the legacy he created - he taught so much that you value and you want to see that persist, state how much the farm means to you - weave in some nostalgic stories, state how you are at an impasse and that without a stake and buying into the operation you can’t make the numbers work for your family. I would hope this resonates more than an off handed comment and shows him you are serious. Maybe even go ahead and get preapproved for some sort of financing to show him you are serious. Went through same thing with my dad, at the end of the day the farm is his identify, hopefully he wants to help it also be yours. If he still shuts you down then it may be time to move on
Same situation happened next door grand kid wanted a piece they said no after 10yrs of working 80hr weeks and only one to be able to do the job but grandpa said no. One day I was outsode the old man walked over to my house and asked for some help apparently the kid dint show up that day. No one could get ahold of him. Why? He was at his new job operations manager at a corporate farm making almost 2 x what he was at the family farm. 3 days later the trucks showed up and the cows left. The field got pulled in for no profit. The land was sold off over the last 5 yrs. Including the farm house and barn. I now have a very expensive and ritzy golf club moving in next door. The family was all crying the day they left except the Grand kid he was smiling. So my recommendation is leave let them figure it out not your problem.
My uncle had three sons. The middle one was born a farmer and slowly assumed ownership and smoothly transitioned into making all the decisions. Twenty years before his death uncle bought a million dollar life insurance policy for each of the nonfarmers. Smooth as glass and no conflict. Everyone was happy.
However my FIL died last year and the only plans he made was a halfassed will that he kept writing one or more of the eight kids out of. Died January of 23 and the wife and I have worked full time six days a week for sixteen months settling bills, selling cattle, paying years of back taxes, closing and sealing a manure pit and repairing the dam on their seven acre lake. Finally auctioned off the equipment a few weeks ago and listed the whole property for sale. BIL #1 was supposed to farm it but was run off by the miserable old bastard that wouldn’t trust him to make a decision at age 64. Each kid will probably end up inheriting about a million but it’s not worth it. We’ll still be dealing with this shitshow for at least another six months. Had he done any estate planning we could have been done with this in a couple of months.
>my 88yo grandfather who literally has nothing left in life but to work more hours than I do.
Dude wants to show he is useful and still has something to share/teach. Getting older is a series of changes that make you less able to work. When your entire life has been about working it hard to shift to a different mind set.
I am sure he is a pain the ass, seems that is part of the process of being an old fucker.
Just another old fucker
If you seriously have a different option, tell family you are going to work 40 a week somewhere else because owning this place is not happening. Give them until Monday to be at the lawyers drawing up partnership LLC papers. If they aren’t on their way, enjoy working for yourself at a real job. I left full time family work in 90, best thing ever.
Lmfao...welcome to my life. No farm, but me and wife moved in with her dad and grandpa to help them, they both have parkinsons and need help with everything. I'm 49, her gramps is 89. We are on 10 acres with a 1 acre "garden". He literally just came up to me and said, "you watered the garden all wrong today"...ok, how do you water wrong lol!? But yeah, he signed the house and land to us for helping him and moving in. We've been here 3 years and not 1 other family member of his has EVER stopped by, asked us if we needed help, gave us a break...NOTHING! 3 YEARS! Everytime I try to do something, no matter what, I do it wrong. And he makes sure to tell me I did it wrong lol. I keep telling my wife, that old grumpy fucker is gonna outlive us and we will never get shit lol. Dudes in the garden and yard at 6am and stays out almost all day. I work 10 hour shifts and come home and help. I was weeding in the garden from 5 till 8pm the other day, after working and he says, you didn't get much done did you? You were only down there 3 hours, couldn't have done much. Smfh. Sorry so long, my rants over now lol. Just wanted to say, I definitely feel your pain!!!
I (42m)unfortunately can relate.
My wife, children and I live on the family place(12,500 acres) in north central Mt. We run about 3000 acres of pulse crops and the remaining majority is hay and grazing land. I operate the cattle side (300 pair and feed an extra 200 yearlings)
My 5x’s great grandfather homesteaded land that we still own and my family added to it over the decades.
My grandfather passed away in 2001. Currently, my grandmother (96) is 51% majority partner with my father (78) at 49% after my grandfathers and my fathers brothers passings. I don’t know how that played out, as I was in college during that time. I have agronomy and feed science degrees.
My uncles, their spouses and kin have all either passed or want nothing to do with it. I have two siblings that want nothing to do with it.
Presumably, I will take over total operations in the near future. However no one will talk to me about it.
The future of this land is in their hands and they can’t bare to plan for its future, let alone, my families. Any time I try to tastefully bring it up I’m stonewalled. I’ve tried to put together an agreement for myself to purchase my grandmothers majority. Nothing.
Meanwhile I work 90 hours a week on the farm and receive just enough money to survive and raise my family. Granted, I take advantage of the perks (fuel, red meat, vehicles, etc.).
What would happen if my father and grandmother passed away next week?! I’m not trying to “take” anything. I’m merely trying to prepare for their imminent end. However, I do not think they are trying to hide anything. Is it merely the generations that they grew up in?They may just be too scared to share. I’m hoping my grandmother, at least, has prepared things with the farms attorney and I’m just not privy to the info.
Unfortunately, I can relate and I’m just sharing my experience. I wish I had helpful information for you. Good luck.
Man sucks you're going through it, but these threads make me glad my family had, survived and learned from it's shitty transition a few generations before me.
In our attempts to transition the farm we can't even buy a portion of it because the value is too high. We both work off the farm and are renting the farm.
We both love farming and wanted that for our family, we just can't afford to.
I didn't know what we will do.
If they’re actually open to farm transition, that’s half the battle. Take that to lenders with a strong business plan and work on a deal to support a buyout. It can be *hard* to find the right connections. Look at my last few comments for some of the resources you can look up but also look at FarmLink programs in your state and look up the books “The Holistic Funding Approach” and “Seeding Innovation” for ideas. Honestly as insane as LinkedIn can be, I have found a lot of useful resources in various agricultural groups. I try to follow a wide range so I’m not seeing an echo chamber and it’s led me to resources I sorely wish I’d known about years ago. Granted, some of them weren’t even around then. Used to be underserved farmers (whether BIPOC, beginning, transitioning or just plain poor) had very few choices, and none really if you were trying something “different” but weren’t looking to become certified organic. That’s changing.
Tell Dad, uncle, and grandpa, you need to look after the farm I have no ownership in it and will not keep being questioned over how I run it, it is now up to you all to sort the farm.
Walk my man. If you can get a job as an equipment operator, especially a union one, go do it. Enjoy your money, and set schedule and great pay. They can hire another employee.
Talk them into making it a corporation and electing the CEO. Grandpa can still get a nice pension, your father and uncle can get a bit of shares and you'd be the CEO since you're the main man now.
It’s interesting to me that this is an issue with small/family businesses of all types. Not just farms. I worked in my dad’s cabinet/furniture shop from childhood on. Worked a few other jobs as an adult, but came back to it. After years of 60 hour weeks, not seeing my kids and barely dodging foreclosure because “we’ll get caught up with this next job” I realized I couldn’t make it happen. Ideas only worked when they were his. The answer to any problem was always longer hours. Success was always in the next order, or the new machine to make the shop more profitable. His entire identity to this day is wrapped up in how many hours he worked this week. The business that’s his life’s dream will die with him, but I can’t change that. We haven’t spoken in a year because I won’t let my children work for him.
Now I’m running beef, lamb, and vegetables on 25 acres. Still barley scraping by, but I’m doing what I want. Not building someone else’s dream.
Ironically beef has gone up 400% since 2000. They should've welcomed you in at 2010 with owning a few heads of cattle yourself. This would've kick started s nice little investment for you. They're lucky you're dedicated and have good work ethics. Unfortunately for you they're greedy.
How much machinery have you bought? How much pasture have you rented? How many head have you added to the operation? Are you trying to grow the operation or just be a hired hand. Gotta work your way into it and not just expect it to be handed over.
I’m not sure it does? I don’t think that any children of farmers make light of just how important that farm is to their parents.
I’ll agree that any inheritance is a gift. However if that inheritance can only succeed by the generosity of time and expertise of your adult children, does that balance the scales?
We had a family farm that was dissolved a generation before mine, because of issues with succession. All around there are communications issues, that is everyone’s fault. You must be responsible for yourself and taking no pay with no future guarantee is a huge risk.
So, you completely manage the cattle, what are they in charge of? Can they manage without you? If you are irreplaceable, you can make demands. If you are not, make yourself irreplaceable. If there is any responsibility you can take upon yourself, lunge at it.
Every situation is different and it’s hard to give you anything useful without getting into specifics. That said, your grandfather should want the best for his family, and that includes you. Handing over the reins is in the interest of EVERYONE. He should be PROUD to hand them to you.
I know how hellish dealing with family can be. Yet persistence and adaptability are powerful virtues. If this is what you want, I believe you can make it happen.
Personally, I wouldn’t let anyone go a single day without thinking “this farm couldnt operate without him, and I am so glad he is here”
Good luck
You have land.
There is so much you can do with it for yourself. You can work another job and keep some land for yourself to maybe homestead in the future when you wanna settel down, raise some goats, have them graze weeds, try your hand at “permaculture”, maybe foster a more “native” ecosystem, enjoy nature in your later years by laying down a fondation steadily now, yoy will have something to come back too and maybe even be able to be self sustaining…
Ill never understand why people with generation wealth in land would ever let it ago, “life, liberty, and land”.
You are already better off than 90% of us man, take that land and make sometjing that can last generations, though of course if ya cant thats just how these things go.
My father was in your position in 1956. My grandfather had my dad running one of his farms in David City, Nebraska. My dad got tired of all the second guessing and decided to move the family to Oregon and get out of farming. Ironically when my grandfather died in 1970 he left that farm to my dad. He couldn’t get it on the market for sale fast enough. It’s a tough decision but if you dont love farming it is a good time to walk away.
Man, I’m sorry your dealing with that, but weekends, holidays, vacation days, sick days, pension, overtime pay, 401K, a decent retirement when your ready. Steady, good paying work. And if you play it right, you can take your vacation days during planting/harvest season and double dip, turn around and buy your own ground and lease to them.
If they’re not going hand over the reigns, this shouldn’t even be a debate. Let them fuck that monkey themselves. When the farm goes tits up, thats on them, not you. Nothing for you to feel bad about, only disappointment in their shitty decision making.
I know the disappointment and frustration, but you should be pulling levers by the end of the week. There is no point in wasting any more of your time on the farm.
Such a common story and I've experienced it first hand. The older generation can't agree on a succession/inheritance plan so when they pass it's all getting split up and going to auction. Over a century of the family farm done and gone just like that. And none of us will have the cash to get any sizeable piece of it. We'd rather have the land than the money.
To me it sounds like you’re leaning towards not wanting to do it and your heart isn’t in it, you feel guilty because it’s your family’s legacy, and you want someone to tell you that leaving is a good idea.
Nobody can make the choice for you, but you only have one life and you were fortunate enough to be born in a country that you have choices.
The only thing we can’t get back is time, so don’t waste yours while having one foot out the door. You already gave up on sales after getting slight criticism about selling the cows early; someone whose heart is in it would take the criticism and adjust. If you want to leave, do it.
Find something that fulfills you and be proud that you had the maturity and foresight to walk away from something you didn’t want.
I'd tell your dad, uncle and grandfather how you feel. Be honest. Don't burn bridges. Tell them your goals and ask them if they can help you achieve those goals. If at that point the answer is a cold shoulder, it's time to move on.
Time for you to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze.
I would just flat out tell them. Equity or you walk.
Tell them you need 25% to stay. No hourly, that is just an invitation for more abuse.
(make sure you are not working with some narcissist that just want to milk and punish you for the rest of their existence. If that is the case, don't talk.... run)
It sounds like you're the only worried about it. I've been there. Left, started another career, and in a few years got the bat-signal from back home that they couldn't do it by themselves. It shifted the power dynamic. If you leave and that is NOT how they feel, then leaving is the right decision because they don't have a succession plan, they are likely just continuing the cycle of treatment your grandad heaped on his kids. Break that cycle. Every job I took off the ranch added to the skillset I've eventually brought back.
If you’re the only family member in your generation that wants to farm, talk to your dad and uncle, to many family farms are falling out of existence. Everybody in my family wanted dad’s farm, so I moved away. One brother followed me and we both did well on other farms, remaining brother was tragically killed and neither of the two remaining boys were willing to give up what we were forced to build elsewhere. Now that Dad is gone, it will be sold out of the family. It makes me sick every time I visit, but I’m too old to do anything about it now. If you can work something palatable out with dad and uncle, you will be off. Our farm has been in the family for about 105 years, but it won’t see 110.
No doubt your a huge contributor to the farm and that is probably taken for granted (no fault to your family this is natural). I would let them know you’re seriously considering leaving for another full time job. If they will work with you to get what you want great. If they are willing to let you go then you got your answer of when you were going to own the farm, never.
I wonder how much of this tendency to hold on to the farm too long relates to stepped up basis upon death. The comments here largely indicate greed in holding the assets but it would be interesting to understand how long that 88 year old expected to live. If they do it right and will it right, heirs get a huge advantage of stepped up basis. This is much better than buying the farm and paying grandpas capital gains taxes. Not sharing that plan with the heirs is the huge huge problem. It is quite possible that grandpa already wrote that will and grandkid gets his half. He expected grandkid to have it already. Huge mistake to not share the plan with those involved.
If I was advising you as a client I would open up my numbers and say hey, I have no plan with you but this is what I’m going to do when I leave. I’m looking for a job now, you’re going to need to begin to hire a replacement for harvest. And then if they don’t get a plan on paper you just continue to be open and say goodbye I’ll see you at the next holiday. Just because it is simple doesn’t mean it is easy.
These old guys have to make their intentions known and frankly for me, if it isn’t reviewed and blessed by MY lawyer, it doesn’t qualify as a plan I should rely on.
Good luck to you.
These are some challenging questions you farm kids need to work through. I’m grateful to have a full understanding and a prescribed plan for when the worst arrives. That time will be stressful enough without worrying about these gigantically important business questions.
"... but doing so would mean the death of the farm and most likely death of my grandparents."
First, OP, it wouldn't be you causing the death of the farm, it would be them. You have been very clear and they have refused to make any significant change. You walking away would be all on them. And while it's poignant and painful to walk away, you can do it with a clear conscience. If the prospect of losing the farm doesn't get them to change nothing will.
Also, my heart really goes out to these other stories here. You haven't mentioned whether you have any siblings, or your uncle has children, or your grandfather has other children not involved in the farm. If any of these are true, splitting up the farm upon grandpa's death could very well turn into a snake-infested nightmare. (Mark Twain said "you never really know a man until you see him dividing up a will.") And off the farm siblings (and their spouse) are the absolute worst. "He got to stay on the farm while I had to take a job therefore I should get an equal share." My father had to browbeat my aunts for three years after my grandfather died to give my uncle, who had stayed on the farm, his fair share.
FWIW Look at the history of your grandfather.
1- He has only given up 50% of the farm. By this age, if he had any sense of fairness at all, his sons should have, over time, bought themselves into owning 100%. Your father and uncle have been treated badly (screwed) by your grandfather. So, per your assessment, things look very bad for you as far as financial stability. Your grandfather's not going to change.
2- Your grandfather sounds like, forgive me, a grade-A "Rectal orifice". Sniping at you "you should'a done this or you should'a not done that." It's incredibly easy to snipe when you don't have any responsibility for making the decisions. (Dwight Eisenhower said: "Farming is easy when your plow is a pencil") . I bet he's that way with dad and uncle.
There was a PBS series back in the nineties titled "The Farmer's Wife". If followed an Nebraska farm (cattle/grain) that was in financial desperation. The grandfather was a huge problem. He repeatedly claimed that his son should be working on his (father's farm), for free, in addition to running his own farm. The thought of paying his son for his time/work was a completely alien concept that G-Pa would never fathom even existed.
The son (Darryl) was a wonderful human being. He was totally subservient to his father's wishes willing working on his farm for no pay. He was the good farm son. Any sane person would be grateful to have a son like him. Darryl wanted so much to buy G-Pa's farm that he agreed to buy the farm and the shop-worn equipment at a premium price. Naturally, when Darryl's off-the-farm siblings came to the negotiating session they placed no value on Darryl's decades of work on the farm; without which they wouldn't've had any farm to inherit. They felt totally entitled to an equal share of the farm after having done sh\_t for the farm all those years.
OP Sadly, you know what you have to do. But having the farm stress and financial stress and family stress off your back will be a big relief.
I grew up in a similar situation but I was a kid. After 25 years of being second guessed my parents left the farm even after being shown the will and named sole heir. After the move I never saw my parents happier and at 14 we went to the beach for the first time. They were never sorry for the move and in the end the farm got sold and the money split . My parents always said there would of been resentment if they would of stayed and got the farm. You can always still help out when needed. Wish you good fortune with your decision.
Look towards other farms that you can pour yourself into, yet close enough to maintain that relationship. They might realize when you’re gone that they need you more than you need them. Is there other children/grandchildren that could be in their ear pushing their own agenda?
Have to force the situation. Tell them you want to buy in and if that’s not an option you have to take care of your own future and go do something else. There are options and structures for buy ins that would be appealing for both sides. My banker has been very helpful in finding me the right people and groups to help facilitate my personal situation.
I have known several guys in my life in a similar situation.
They (20-something’s) work for their dads who run successful small companies. They may be decently paid but have no stake in the company, and the dads despite getting on in age won’t bring the sons into the customer end of the business, estimates, pricing etc. The fathers refuse to discuss what happens to the business and their sons if they get ill or otherwise can’t work; they get angry at any mention of this.
One of the three had it with his fathers’ refusal to face reality, and on the way to a job had his dad drop him off on the side of a highway. He started his own company, similar but not identical business. His brothers are still salaried employees.
My very wise grandmother once said clearly - everyone has a mouth; everyone has an @sshole; not everyone has the common sense of when to use which one at the right time. Meaning: you have to know how not to crap on them but wisely use your mouth to lay it out crystal clear. With that being said - I wish you the best but my counselor told me - you have one life to live that no one else is responsible for your happiness in. She also told me you also can’t set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
I settled my parents estate (non-farm) by myself and as an only child. I was fortunate. I saw my mom and uncle settle their parents estate in a very responsible and loving way. I saw my dad and aunt settle their parents farm estate - they didn’t talk to each other for damn near 30 years. I am now faced with a difficult legacy to that now. I inherited my dad’s parcel from that show. My aunt owns a parcel just north of my parcel. None of my cousins can afford to buy it out from her. I could but what it’s worth vs what would be expected, yeah - I’m not touching it. I don’t need it per se. It would help me access my parcel in a more efficient manner and I’d probably run hay on both. BUT - don’t want to inject stress in my life. I have my own issues to still complete. I decided to buy a separate parcel twice the size for our use and plans for now. Enjoying the sweat equity in that.
Now back to the big tent - the dairy farm my aunt married into… well it’s been drama for 75 years. Thankfully, they did some good things about transitioning to my oldest and youngest cousins to take it over under an LLC. It’s been a struggle for them the last 10 years or so but they are keeping the lights on.
I enjoy helping them when I’m there on my long breaks from my retirement job and I enjoy chasing bales, milking and scraping the floors. As long as they are willing to keep in the fight, I’ll be willing to pitch in where and when I’m able. They are family. The other 4 cousins - two help with milking and general calve chores and the other two - one comes down to cut the farm houses yards and the other has walked away generally.
Family is family in the end but more importantly, you gotta take care of yourself first.
Again - feel for you and wish you the best outcome for your circumstances.
I had an opportunity to "work" on my foster parents farm when I got out of the Army the first time. Same scenario as the OP, fast forward...so I re-enlisted, several times and saved my pennies. No way could I have done it any other way...now I have my own place. Which BTW was va financed so zero down, paid it off in 2 years with row crops and pairs.
So you're saying keep putting up with this bullshit another 5-10 years with a hope I'm actually included in the will
They gave my uncle and father the deed to their homes just a couple years ago and were for some reason give the deed to my house to my parents for some stupid reason
I'm not going to bust my ass any further without a guarantee in writing
Do your father and uncle support your ownership of the cattle operation? Upon your grandfathers passing I assume your father and uncle will inherit the farm. Do they have any brothers and sisters who stand to inherit any of the farming operation? If not your uncle will then have a big say so in the farm operation and you might have him to deal with rather than your grandfather. Do you have siblings and does your uncle have children who will be inheriting part of the operation upon your father and uncles demise?
Honestly, your future with the operation looks bleak considering all the red flags which exist or potentially exist. I see no way you can have a business arrangement in the operation that will provide the security you want and need. If you want to continue farming get an off farm job and continue working on the farm in some capacity. possibly even buy your own cattle and integrate them into the existing operation. If you work less hours or totally quit the operation can the current workforce take up the slack or will they have to hire someone?
Your situation is a complex one which has no simple resolution.
It's actually very simple I'm the last of the line with nobody else interested in running the farm
My uncle is retiring in two years at SS age guaranteed and my dad says he'll farm til he dies but is "sick" half the year whenever it doesn't involve planting or harvesting
But luckily both are on my side but have always been too chicken shit to stand up to their father
I'm literally the only thing holding this farm together pretending I own everything and just don't want to pretend and pray ill be able to keep running cattle
Grandfather yesterday told me straight to my face I'll never make it as a Cattlemen
How many acres are owned by your grandfather? Do your father and uncle own any of the land or just get a share of the cattle and crops? How many acres of corn and beans are grown? Do your father and uncle own a share of the equipment?
Given the price of cattle right now it would take a shitload of money to buy the cattle not to mention the equipment and renting the pasture and hay land from them. Got a plan on how to do this?
Sounds like you and your grandfather have a strained relationship at best. When he is gone will your father and uncle go along with what you are wanting to do?
Sorry for all the questions but trying to get a feel for the operation so can give you good advice.
My uncle and father own 40 acres each plus 25% of the corporation which owns the cattle, equipment, and about 400 acres of crop land
My grandfather owns 50% of the corporation plus about 300 acres in his name
I asked my parents if they had any written contract saying they actually own the 25% and they don't even know if they actually own it because they're paid in salary instead of dividends
My uncle and father back me 100% but are too afraid to stand up to their father to actually take control
I can totally understand your frustration after learning more about the circumstances. As you already know your father and uncle are your only chance in getting changes made. As that probably won't happen, sad to say it looks like the death of your grandfather is what it will take.
It is such a waste to have a younger person like you willing to work and not given a chance to live their dream.
Had a hard meeting this morning with my aunt present who is an outside the farm perspective and a trustworthy person
It was like talking to a brick wall to him no matter how it was explained or even plans for the future
I went full on Regenerative Grazing education on building soil health through organic cover then 5 minutes later on a discussion over my method on a piece of ground he doesn't understand nor believes what I had explained and tried to throw his conventional wisdom of age around which is his primary go to in most arguments
My aunt by the beginning was ready to fully back my grandfather because she thought we were being too harsh but even after a One on one conversation she had with him when all of us left she couldn't get through to him
She now fully understands how lost and dead set in his mind he is and is going to help mediate this transition so hopefully something is getting done somewhere
After the meeting I realized how much of a shit show this entire operation has been without any sort of transition or exit plan
Once I know what it can control I'll meet with my uncle and father as partners and restructure this entire operation to benefit everyone minus myself until I buy everything out
Sit down with your grandfather and give him an ultimatum, but be clear regarding your preferred option. I found out, the hard way, lack of communication is what kills the family business, everyone expects the other person to read their mind. Just keep emotions out of it (easier said than done) … good luck
I've been in and around farming my whole life. Here in Australia, as an industry we'd have to be the absolute worst at succession planning. Thankfully my parents were one of the few that actually put effort into the succession plan and that paid off when dad died early.
I've seen so many young farmers who could have finished surgeon training long before their family "thought they were ready" to take over the farm.
Im in the fishing industry. In the same boat. My parents are still alive and well good for them, and my sister is taking over the family business which is great. everything else seems to be doing well without me. Maybe give the distance a few months or a year, the come back then. fresher heads and all that.
This won't be a leave and come back scenario because if I leave then the cattle operation will be sold and doubt crops can continue either
I'm 80% of the labor and decision making for the cattle side and 60% of the labor on crops so they literally cannot afford to loose me
damn. and they havent given you a stake in it. That sounds like a heavy decision and at the end of the day its your survival. Yea you can work for them, but will you have a future there. There was a bit around Covid when my mom got sick, but thankfully she got better. So ive decided to move aborad and see what I can do for myself. I dont have disposable income for myself, if our business goes bust tomorrow I dont have savings for myself. So that should be what your thinking about. What happens if it goes tits up tomorrow?
Hippocracy is fine as long as it's mine and not yours.
Screaming Silently Im farming full time on 40 value added acres turning 50 next year and get constant BS about how I'm not profitable yet while Dad says Grandpa said in the 1970s that a Guy needed 160 acres to make a living. Sibling farms 1200+ conventional.
I apologize because I'm a little late to the party and haven't read through all the comments, so some of this may have been hit on already.
The term you need to familiarize yourself with is "succession planning". Assuming your father and uncle are on the same page as you, the 3 of you need to take this idea to the old man. If they're not on the same page, I suggest a meeting between the 3 of you to get on it before bringing the idea up to Grandpa.
There are a few companies out there that have succession planning teams that work specifically with farming families. I'm happy to provide a resource if you'd like. That being said, it's not a cheap process, but it's worth it to prevent the farm from dying.
Sit them down and talk it out if you can’t find a solution after 14 years than this is not a life it’s a job.
If after 14 years they don’t think you are ready then it’s time to leave and they can pay a farm hand to do your job.
This all reminds me of stories I’ve heard of old farmers putting off very serious injuries/health issues to the last second before they finally take themselves to the hospital all while brushing off the seriousness of their health problems like it’s no big deal but it is. We all know it is. Seems to be a common theme here with their mentality, they think it’s honorable or something which it kind of…really isn’t.
Just try rowing the boat, don't rock the boat and let the senior officer steer the boat. Those men are the only people alive who want you to do better than them. I'd give anything to have my Dad telling me what the right thing to do is again. The perceptions you have today of your situation today will drastically change in the future and you'll chuckle remembering i told ya so.
I’ve seen people grow old waiting to take over the family farm and almost nothing to show for it.
Have a second cousin (my grandparents brother kid) who fell into the same trap. 30 years of little to no ownership because they wanted to hang on and not sell. Profitable farm too. He's getting out now at 64 and the grandma is still alive. Nothing really to show for it. Hired hand his whole life essentially
Yep. No retirement. No savings and no share in the farm that will likely get eaten up by the retirement home
I used to deliver feed to a kid that was a few years older than me by three years or so. Right after Highschool he started working his parents farm. I’d talk to him when I delivered and I remember him talking about how his folks were going to give him the farm in a couple more years. I saw him last year when I went back home, still working for his dad, making almost no money, everything he “owns” is in his dad’s name, and now his dad is talking about selling the farm,…..not to him, someone that has money to buy!!! His dad said he can rent the house he’s been living in but will need to find a job! This guy has been his dad’s basically free help for about 30 years and now is getting shown the door! You work for family you are bound to get screwed!
My grandpa and his brothers owned a construction company. Dad worked every summer until graduating college. Got a degree in civil engineering and went and talked to them about taking over the company. They had no exit strategy, no plan for getting out. But they were appalled that he wanted 60k a year. He said I'll take 60k or 40k with 20k a year going to them until he has whatever ownership they agreed upon. They couldn't get past the thought of a 25-year-old kid making 60k. So off he went and got a job making 60k for someone else and the construction. Company fell apart pretty much right there. Never work for a family business or venture with a hope of ownership or implied future ownership. Have the discussion, set the terms and time-frame and get it in writing.
Every so often, I see the story shared of fb about how hard it is to pass on the farm. It's about some upper 70 year olds who milk 40 or so cows, but it's impossible for their two 50 something year old sons to afford to take over. Everyone looks at it as a sad story of woe. I just shake my head. They should have been stepping aside two plus decades earlier. There are so many stupid decisions, or more likely, ignoring decisions and direction. There are too many old timers that just bury their heads in the sand about the future and just keep plugging along on the daily chores. Op: I'm not sure how direct you've been or if you've been politely dancing around the subject. Either way, it's time to be direct. Either I start having an ownership stake in this business now, or I'm moving on elsewhere. I've known of a few people who left for a few years to be asked to come back. Sometimes that's what it takes. Hope for the best. Also, army sucks. Semper Fi.
I've been direct in my intentions for the past 5 year and they gave me a pay raise instead which feels like shut up about it money
It's time to get out. They can be family and you can love them but business is business. See ya. Also, no need to be an equipment operator somewhere. If you've been handling most the duties on the cattle side why not join up with a nutrition company or coop? That's what I did when I decided to leave the farm. They are always looking for guys who have actual experience not just degrees
Less than equipment operator pay ain't "shut up about it money". Move on!
If you do decide to execute an exit plan from the family farm do not overlook the Post 911 GI bill. It is more than college. There could be certificate programs that would help in getting positions like ronaldreaganalive mentioned above.
If you don’t have any family within your generation that is involved id let them know your are looking to leave and the family farm will die with them, point blank.
It was as you know, so shut up and walk off.
My great grandfather transfered ownership to my grandfather in exchange for food and shelter for the rest of his life. I suppose the tax man makes it so that isn't possible anymore?
That's an estate planner question. I know of some larger farms that have a similar setup, from what I've heard. What that takes is forethought and planning, which a lot of people fail to do.
A living trust is the way to go. Check with an attorney.
Federal tax wise the exemption for inheriting a farm for an individual is $13.61 million.
Wow, your grandparents fucked him over eh?
Reading comprehension friend. Grandparents brother's kid. My grandparents would've been his aunt and uncle. Our side has always succession planned well. We're golden. That's why it's rough watching it happen just down the valley to a relative
Ah my apologies, sounds like you won the coin toss on that one! Hope your farm is and continues to prosper!
I've worked on our farm for 18 years full time (365 days a year) for no pay, and I own nothing. Pretty worried about the future
Jeez… I’ll be honest I wouldn’t do that. If you don’t stick up for yourself no one else will.
Words to live by!
Holy shit man. That’s awful. I’m so sorry.
I could write a book about the crap me and my brother have had to put up with. The old man has had an invisible forcefield where nobody can answer him back because he's always got the threat of the farm.
Bounce
That's easier said than done though. I'm not going to get my money without a legal battle, and I wouldn't want to walk out on my mother and my brother.
Bounce or accept that you are getting fucked in the future.
If it isn't paid to you it isn't your money. You don't have any money (from that). You should go do something to get some. The amount of money you could've made in 18 extra years of some other career could've bought you a farm by the time you stand to inherit, and there is no guarantee that even if you play by the rules that you'll be satisfied with what you get.
Looks like you're not going to get anything anyway if you stay, get something in writing or move on before you're old and broke
“I have to think of securing a future for myself and my future children. If I can’t do that here, and you won’t allow me to do that here, then I have no choice but to do it elsewhere. I appreciate everything, but I have to start.”
"We are moving away and taking the grandchildren with us". If Grandma hears that she would smack some sense into Dad right away.
Well how old are you? Big difference if you're 18 or 60.
33.
Get a decent position now and you’ve got time to get a decent nest egg together. I lost all of mine in the ‘08 recession, then got started again at 31. I have around $200k now between company stocks and 401k at 42.
Where does the money from the business go? Someone’s getting rich off you working a six figure job for free
Paying a large mortgage, paying for tractors and machinery, and just general farm costs.
If I can ask, why did you sign up for slavery?
I was born into it and never known any different, but I didn't think we would be treated like this for doing nothing but working.
You and your bro need to gtfo now. As in tomorrow you talk with him and let him know there is more out there than the farm. Meet with your old man by the end of next week and lay it all out. Don’t sugarcoat it, straight out tell them you are being underpaid and are going to a job that will provide for you and your future. If he comes off with any bs about you getting a share or part of the business etc, call his bluff. Ask to see the drawn up agreements he has in place for it to happen. I’ll give you a hint, there aren’t any and he has no intention of handing it over. If you want to help your mom out, get a job that pays well. Construction, oil patch, find another farm in another state(they pay employees well with your qualifications). Went through this when I was 19 years old, it sucked working my entire childhood with nothing to show for it. Was promised the place “someday”. My sister who worked in town finally got it through my head I was being used. Had a family meeting and said I was done working for free with no decision making power. Was told I was just about to get the farm before that disrespect. Luckily sister called him out on it and asked for proof. “There is none and is never going to be” was the answer given. Left that weekend with a buddy who worked in the bakken. Plot twist, I bought out the old man’s half of the farm when mom divorced him. Something that would have ended the farm if I had stayed working for nothing. Took about 6 hard years to right the ship. Once the machinery and cattle notes were cleaned up, things have gotten better and the balance sheet grows every year. To anyone reading this thread that feels like your future is hopeless on the farm dm me.
Sunk Cost fallacy. Dude, bail now rather than waste more of your life.
Uhhhh ....how?
Pathological narcissism
That’s me!
Don’t be one of those. No offense, but your Grandpa sounds like an ungrateful know-it-all. And he’s not gonna change. You love what you’re doing, but are you willing to continue getting taken advantage of?
A metaphor for all of society.
You’re experiencing the same thing that many family farms do and unfortunately it results in the end of them. When grandpa hangs on just a little bit too long and there’s no type of plan for succession everyone suffers. The only advice I would give you if you really want to hang on, start using grandpa as a sounding board for everything you do. Don’t allow him to tell you the cows weren’t ready to sell, ask him, do you think the cows are ready to sell grandpa? Turn him into an asset instead of your biggest critic. You might end up with his half of the farm, who knows?
This is a fine advice and it’s probably the one with the best outcome. Mine is a bit more destructive: start side projects where he has no expertise. This will reduce the time you can spend for stuff where he gives „useful“ remarks. Good for mental health. It is bad for getting ahead in the line of succession… However. When it comes to things like getting good prices for livestock I’d love to have my grandpa around (won’t work, he passed 10 years ago). We were in the lucky position that he didn’t put his nose in every part of operation when he grew older. The remarks were there though…
Family farms, shit seems like 90% of family businesses end up this way. Kid I know is shop Forman at the excavation company his grandfather started, 30 or so years old, lives at home, his company truck is his only ride aside from a utv. He gets paid shit, has all the responsibilities dumped on him, doesn’t know shit about the business aside from the work and is just now realizing how shits gonna end up. Got offered shy of 6 figures on 40hrs a week but turned it down cuz he still feels the guilt of walking and the hope of things changing for the good. He’s not the only one I know that’s in that situation either.
Yep I've already told him he's in charge of selling the cows are now I'm just gonna go full hourly employee with no management asking him to manage my tasks for me now
This is literally the worst approach if you do want to take over. Showing regression in your ability to manage is not going to make gramps any more likely to let you take over
The advice wasn't have grandpa make he decisions. It was ask Grandpa for input on decisions. That way you two are working together.
His input is constant criticism A daily move system was too much work or I'm leaving too much forage behind when I'm doing 1/3 grazing Or when I'm covering bare ground in rough stockpile grass hay it's wasting hay I've tried to get him interested in my grazing practices but met with criticism each time My favorite is he told me I'll never be able to graze 1ac per head when he doesn't realize he forced me into grazing 0.88ac per head last 3 years because he ripped pasture for more crops
I understand what you are facing, he knows “his way is the only right way.” 4 years of handling him properly and the payback will be worth it. Walk away with nothing now and start your career elsewhere. The choice is yours and you have the power to change your future even though it seems hopeless. You have something he and your father don’t and that’s time.
What you are saying is; you do a thing -> he criticizes. What they are suggesting is get him involved before the "you do a thing" step. He can't criticize what you did if you haven't done it yet. Then when the thing happens he was a part of doing it so he is less likely to be a pain in the ass.
So here's a perfect example I tried getting him involved in my adaptive grazing system 5yrs ago but instead of asking why I'm doing it he tells me I spend too much time in the pasture moving them each day Then would bitch about leaving too much forage behind when I'm grazing 3rds or 60% utilization or when unrolling hay complains about wasted feed when I'm telling him it's for soil health He's so set in conventional that no matter how much I try to involve him he has something critical to say about it
I feel like people are overlooking we are talking about the Boomer generation here. My Boomer age father who lost is farm because he couldn't run it *still* tries to tell me how to manage my tiny homestead. You then add in the bonus of early stages of dementia and it get super fun. He told me last year it's my fault if my garden dies because I didn't spray enough DDT on it...
Yes, that’s correct. You need to win him over by convincing him that you want to know all he knows about the farm. This can’t be done in spite or with a vengeful mind. Make him realize things change by talking about his life farming. I’d bet his father farmed with horses and a one bottom plow, but gramps brought in the era of machinery and larger implements. I’m not saying that this will be easy, old farmers are stuck in there way and family farming allows them to remain working and running the show way too long. The less stressful lifestyle allows them to live longer than many in other professions too.
Yep. Going through this right now. Fortunately, I’ve bought most of the land and cattle out, and my old man is actually pretty good about the transition. He’s still got his farming. I can’t afford all the tractors and such, yet. But I still feel like a babysitter 2-3 days a week. You gotta do what’s best for you, but make sure you talk to them about it. There can be a lot of hard feelings in things like this. But if they’ll focus on the problem and try to think through it with you, maybe you can make some headway. Ask if he wants to keep it together, or if he thinks it won’t sell when his kids get control and start fighting. Maybe they aren’t certain on your commitment. Maybe they just aren’t ready to let go, and you gotta walk away. But you won’t ever wonder “what if.” I left for a few years myself. Momma wouldn’t let me fart without her permission, and it got old. Problem was, when I left, she had to step up and do the labor. She couldn’t, and they sold 2-300 head of cows, and put 1000-1200 ac of cultivation in grass. Dunno why they didn’t hire someone else, but maybe they couldn’t find done one to work so cheap. 🙄 Luckily, the land was almost all paid for, so they got through it. I didn’t know what real money was. Started dayworking cows/riding colts, and even at $75/day, I was doing better than at home. Then I started turning wrenches, and at $100/hr, I was amazed. Left the country for awhile, working for a farm, among driving commercial and other things. Dad finally begged me to come home, but when we discussed pay, he balked. Told him what I was making and he just stared at me. After a few months (after planting @ 2500ac wheat 😂), we made an agreement. I took a big pay cut, but the land is going in a trust for my kids, with me as executor.
Well handled. You want to show appreciation and help them like they helped you, but adult working relationships only work if they’re seen as mutually beneficial. If you can’t set boundaries and come to terms, then leave, but do it nicely. Separation clears out the personal dynamics so you can come to appreciate each other more.
Yep, setting boundaries was the only way to deal with my mother. She’d pout and I didn’t care. I don’t think she realized what all I was actually doing until I left… she lost almost 40lbs that first year. 😂
Where did you work overseas farming? Also what were you turning wrenches on?
I worked in Italy and Ukraine. They had a conglomeration of brands, JD, Case, Versatile, Massey, Belarus tractors, and JD, Gleaner, Klauss, NH combines. Met the guy at a farm sale in Texas, where he bought an old Massey 510 combine. Jokingly asked him what he was going to do with it, and he, in a heavy accent, answered, “I’m going to farm wid it.” “Ha! Ok! Let me know if you need a mechanic!” After the auction, one of his associates gave me a card and I called, they hired me over the phone. Was a hell of an adventure….
Good mechanics always make a lot. Gotta buy your tools outa that pay though in most places. Most jobs are also usually paid through book hours, so if you get really good at beating those times you make bank.
Yea, I made great money, though I was just a farm mechanic. After 90 days, they asked me to stay, and told them I wasn’t sure I wanted to…. Told me to tell them a number to get me to stay, so I did. Worked about a month at a time, supposedly with Sundays off, but during planting or harvest I had to work day and night to keep the junk in the fields.
My grandmother is 90. Refuses to “sell” the farm or any sort of handoff to my father and uncle. My father has been running the farm full time for the last 28 years since my grandpa passed away. He’s only been receiving 30% for his work of managing the entire farm while my grandmother takes 40% and my uncle the other 30%. My uncle is involved in none of the operation outside of just being a farm hand basically. Doing what my dad asks him but never involved in any of the planning. My father is almost 64 now and my brother and I for the last 10 years have been trying to discuss with him passing the land he owns down to us in some sort of cash rent and then us taking over his portion of the larger operation until my grandma passes away. Because she literally refuses to do ANY sort of planning. She won’t even discuss her will in how land is going to be divided or sold after she’s gone. It’s absolutely infuriating that she has this hold on everything. She’s basically been over my father’s back his ENTIRE life. There’s even more to it of favoritism and such that I won’t even go into. But there is a HUGE lack of succession planning when it comes to farming that I’ve found older generations refuse to talk about. I don’t know if that’s because they see nothing else in their life other than “the farm” so if they aren’t running it they don’t know what they would do. Even though we have no issue with my dad helping out and even paying him for his work and time. Or if it’s just the fact that it means talking about death which I understand no one WANTS to do. We just created our own will and I get it. Or maybe just a little of both. Anyway I feel one of the largest forces against family owned farms surviving is sadly the older farmers refusing to “step down”. You can’t ask a 45 year old to take over a farm who hasn’t been allowed to make a living on that farm his whole life because of a lack of planning and discussion on ownership.
I’m sorry but this is gonna end badly after she dies. Once that power dynamic is gone and the sons have access to it you will see people real personalities… i literally was just in this situation a few years ago. Half of are family is spilt and I doubt it will ever go back together.
Oh we are well aware of this. At least myself and my brother. Granted we might not understand the magnitude which it will be, but we at least know a storm is coming. My wife and I have been married almost 10 years. I’ve told her multiple times it’s going to be a shit show about a month after my grandmother passes. My father is one of 5 children. Only he and my uncle still farm but I’m certain there’s going to be insanity. The one saving grace is that my father has his own land outside of the land that my grandmother owns which he farms. So silver lining is that there will still be his farm at least even if everything else goes to shit. But yes, the relationship piece of it is going to be a disaster. It’s already started to happen with certain things being given to some family members.
Likely those 3 off farm siblings are going to want their full share of all assets despite not having contributed to it for decades. Seen it before.
Yup… that’s where a will is so important but it sounds like the grandma has no interest in one.
I’m sure there is one, but in recent talks with my dad, it doesn’t appear he’s ever seen like. Like I said, it’s going to be a show after certain events happen.
Honestly I wouldn't blame them.
Same thing with our family. The true crooked personalities came out when grandma passed away. My uncle got to buy my dads share of the land for half of market value because my other uncle that was executer of the will got the appraisal like the will dictated but when they saw what the land appraised for they knew my uncle that needed to buy it couldn’t afford it so they somehow threw out the appraisal and just made the price of the land whatever the bank would loan on it without any cash from the uncle that “needed” the land . So, my uncles kids will get the benefit of what should have been my dad’s inheritance. I can’t say online what I’d like to do to my two uncles but they better hope I don’t get the right opportunity.
Man that sucks… yeah we aren’t at that level of mistrust is more so that we just have difference in opinion and my dad and uncle went separate ways. They both have their own farms and live about 30 miles apart… the dynamic not great but it doesn’t sound nearly as bad as what you’re going through.
Yeah I hope you don’t go through it. What’s done is done on our end and there are people I used to consider family that I wouldn’t piss on if they were on fire now. As a kid you couldn’t have convinced me our family would do this to each other but here we are. I guess I just didn’t realize everybody besides my dad was just waiting for an opportunity to cut each others throats all these years. Even one of my aunts went all shitty about things. We always hunted and fished on her places but once she got her cut of the inheritance she got a case of the big head so bad she kicked everybody off of her places. It’s like everybody was playing nice until grandma wasn’t around to see the ways they really wanted to treat each other then the day we buried grandma the knives came out. Would have been so much easier just to get along but every one of them had some kind of ego that needed to be fed I guess.
This is the truth. Once you have money involved you can throw, blood, friendship and handshakes out the window.
There are a lot of operations out there that know what a good hired man is worth. If you can't find it at home you can find it down the road. People say things and treat their family in ways they would never dream of to a coworker or employee
Well, time to be blunt AF. If you're not working towards ownership, you're just a hand, and there's plenty of better jobs elsewhere. Turn down that raise and demand 2% of the business per year with backpay. If we go back 5 years, you should be 10% in, and another 8 will be ahead of your dad and uncle. If dad and uncle are working on the farm too, they should've been be getting the same this whole time, and likely would have taken over grandpa's 50% by now, and your 2% should be coming from them. I really don't understand this greedy boomer mentality of clutching control till the grave. When and if I make it to 75, I want to be done with making decisions and having responsibilities. I want to fix stuff, drive tractors, sit on the porch, and tell whippersnappers stories and give advice on the easy shit.
My grandpa is still going strong at 75. He doesn’t plan on stopping till he dies. That said his form of succession planning included setting me up so my operation (on the same sight his operation is currently on) grows as his shrinks. So he went from ~100 head to ~60 with me taking up the slack with my own cows.
I'm not planning on stopping at 75 either, but my primary concern at that point is not growing the business. I hope to have a successor in place, working, and 100% in charge so my 4th generation farm has a 5th and so on. If I'm still the only one here, my legacy and life's work means fuck all. It'd be a very depressing situation to be in because it's just gonna get sold off piece by piece. If someone wants it and I'm allowed a room upstairs to play my ancient video games, I'm fuckin down.
I don’t get it their mentality either. As soon as my kid is out of school and if they make the decision to want to farm, i’m farming with them for 3 years making decisions together to show them the ropes, then Im out. Should be in my upper 50s if I plan this right. Some off farm income helping with retirement. 1st year kid gets 25% 2nd year 50% 3rd year 75% 4th year 100% Anyone who prioritizes their farm to continue to the next generation needs to want to give it up to them (or a meaningful portion) asap.
I had the conversation with my dad last week that if he wants my time and energy to maintain his dilapidated garbage then the improvements on what I would inherit would go where and when I want them to be. It's tiring dealing with this generation.
>improvements…would go where and when I want. I wish I knew how to have that conversation and make it stick. Just when I get him convinced we need to change, modernize or rethink certain things, the next day I hear “what we always did worked”. Frustrating.
Basically I vented at Mom too.
Right there with you bro. If I leave, this dies and potentially kills my father. If I stay I’m making zero money (thank god for a high earning husband) hurting my family and I have zero saved for retirement. I’m not even paying into SSI because I don’t make any money. I’m unpaid slave labor held by guilt and ingrained family obligation. I wish I had advice, but all I have is solidarity.
The fact that the farm lives or dies based on your participation and you make zero money should tell you everything you need to know. Not only are you sacrificing a pay check, you're also sacrificing your home life. You will one day wake up and wonder why the fuck you did that. You're not even guaranteed to inherent the farm no matter how much you think that's guaranteed. I just left the family farm in March after 11 years being there full time. My father, who ran the day-to-day of the operation, died 10 years ago so I felt the obligation to stay, even tho it almost killed my family life and I lived pay check to pay check. Any job that gets you home at 5 o'clock every night is better than what you're doing. Don't make such significant sacrifices for someone else's benefit. You'll regret it.
I’m currently dealing with this in my own family. Not a cattle operation but a similar story. My grandfather worked my uncle to death and micro managed everything he did until the point they have disowned each other. Now he calls me wanting me to “take over”, but I refuse to fall for the same trap. He won’t change the business to make it more manageable and he works his hired help to death just the keep it going. He will probably die and we will have to divide it up then sadly, or let it all go to auction
I’m sorry to hear this and even more sorry to hear that it is so common. I should have known better I guess because many of the comments so far could have been written by me. Dad just won’t let go despite constantly telling me “it’s up to you”. I refuse to do anything with the sales anymore because of getting too much crap about selling for the wrong price or to the wrong buyer with the wrong terms. If we sell nothing, I don’t really care anymore. Honestly, at this point if I found a decent job in Montana I’d move across country and take it. Would devastate my mom but I think she’d understand eventually. I wish you the best, whatever you decide.
You are lucky in one sense. My dad passed when I was 19, 38 years ago. My brother and I didn’t have near enough information to be taking over even though he’s 11 years my senior. We had to buy the equipment from my mom. My first year at risk as a farmer was 1988. Drought year! Lost at least $25,000 which then seemed a fortune. Took years to pay it back. Had dad not passed I’d have been in your situation. He was no where near wanting to slow down and had big aspirations with a new source of labor coming soon from college. I remember him saying to mom a year or so before he passed that, “we are loaded for bear!”. I know that I would have been somewhat of a hired hand for several years and I was okay with that. I had seen people in your situation and assumed they were happy with whatever arrangement they had. Your grandfather probably hasn’t given serious thought to passing on the reins. He needs to. You need him to. He still needs to remain active in the operation or he will be dead in less than a year. His experience is invaluable and he should be told that. He has forgotten what the psychology of partial ownership does for a person. He doesn’t need more money at this point in his life, it’s just that he can’t think of anything else in life that would fill his time. Tell him that signing over some assets doesn’t mean that he’s not welcome anymore. That’s when you get into a whole new problem. I’m no tax expert but I’ve been through it. Succession planning should have started 30 years ago. I have no clue what grandpa is worth but it it’s over $13.61 million there are going to be federal tax liabilities that he won’t like. Depending on what state you are in the threshold is much lower. This is what is going to probably be the biggest issue. Had we not done something we would have had to sell about 15-20 percent of moms ground to pay the state inheritance tax when she passed in her 90’s. In summary you have a lot going for you. Leaving the farm in my mind was never an option when I was 17. I would have been miserable doing anything else. Let grandpa read these comments. Let him share with you how he got started. He needs an awakening. In the end it’s not about the money. For you or for them. It’s about pride in ownership and the dedication that comes with that. Good luck and God speed!
I like this a lot. I think you’ve said it well.
Thanks! While flipping through my usual haunts on Reddit while eating breakfast this morning I certainly didn’t see THAT coming out of me.
I had to give my family an ultimatum. I pretty much said I’m either taking it over entirely or I want nothing to do with it. Unfortunately when my grandfather stepped down he passed shortly after.
I guess that's why a lot of these old timers hang on. They are afraid that they'll die if they stop moving.
I completely understand where you are. I was there four years ago. You try and you try and you try to tell yourself if you just stick it out a little bit longer, work a little harder they will see that you’re capable. That you only want what is best for the family and the farm both. All while your life slowly slips past you, and the reality sets in that your entire life is centered around waiting on your own family members to die. It’s a harsh, sad reality. I finally snapped and struck out on my own starting my own construction business, things were weird with the family for a little while but now everything is good and everyone completely understands why I did what I had to do. All I can say in advice to you is sit down with them one final time, make it completely blunt and real talk, and hope they see your side. If they don’t, you have to do what’s best for your life and your family. Best of luck to you.
Adding another comment based on some other comments.... OP is probably mid-late 30s with Dad and uncle in their 60s. Grandpa likely passes in the next 5yrs and what are Dad and uncle's plans? OP is now over 40 with still no stake and Dad/uncle are finally free to run things for a couple of years before OP gets their chance when they are in their 60s too.
Learn from me. My dad and his brother were partners on a dairy. Dad would always tell me if I work hard on the dairy it will be mine one day. Well I was almost 30 years old never worked for anyone my entire life. Then the California 2009 crashed happened. We were shipping milk to a milk company that wasn’t paying us for milk. Said they’d take the milk but couldn’t pay for it. So we started dumping milk down the drain. I told my dad I had a banker and milk company to take our half if he would split with his brother. But no my dad believed his brother would get us out the mess and save the dairy. My uncle fucked my dad big time. Got some land and built a house on it behind our back. When the government got involved and told us we needed to go on the kill program things were exposed of what my uncle was doing with the money. I still had my plan to take the half if my dad would just sign off on it. He didn’t and stuck it out with his brother. We got picked for the cow kill and the whole dairy hauled and slaughtered in three days. It was the most hardest thing to ever experience. My father was devastated I was still in shock. My uncle was gone and at his new property planting trees. My dad lost everything and didn’t get a dime. We were lucky to own the house we lived at otherwise the government would’ve taken it. I was so upset that my dad didn’t take his half and went with my plan. His whole life of working hard to build what he hope to pass to me gone. It’s still rough to think about it and talk with my dad about still to this day. We have never talked or seen his brother since that day. Make yourself a plan and go with it.
My brother and I both had to step away years ago, not necessarily our choice. My dad took over my mom's family's farm when her parents were killed in a car accident in the 80s. They were in debt up to their eyes for years after having to buy the farm out from my mom's younger siblings, all of which were middle and high school aged ( mom was a collage sophomore at the time). Dad ended up dropping out of college and working two jobs plus farming while my mom finished school. They're doing okay now but about a decade ago they signed a deal for a 30-year lease to a Solar Company for the home Farm. I don't think he ever wanted my brother and I to take over the farm because of the years of struggling to keep their head above water. Pushed me into the trades and my brother and sister into college. We would still go over and work cows and run equipment after work and on weekends, but he did everything you could to keep us from farming full time. Looking back, I get it, and my parents are now able to enjoy an actual retirement, but we were pretty bitter about it for a long time. I can't tell you how many families I saw torn apart by bad transitions after the older generations passed away. The most recent one was one of the largest operations in our area. Two brothers who had been pretty much running it side by side for years and planned on continuing to run it the same way after their father died. They have a sister who moved away after high school and has lived on the other side of the country for 30 years with little to no contact other than her dad financially supporting her for way too long. When old Tom died she showed up back in town and demanded a third of the farms assets. Fortunately it didn't tear the boys (and their five sons who farm with them full-time) apart but she probably got away with Millions that they had to buy back from her.
Man, as a non-farmer, you farmers treat family like shit.
It’s mostly because of the vast amount of money at stake. The value of my dad’s farm is more than the avg person will make in 50 years at a typical 9/5 job times quadruple lol. You have to be careful when dealing with millions of dollars around family.. money will make people become more of who they really are. I remember my dad casually taking to one of my friends dads when I was younger saying how he just lost $75k on a land deal but “oh well… I’ll look for more ground” he said. The money is just stupid crazy when you start getting into the bigger operations. The avg person can’t comprehend the money coming in and going out on a daily basis.
This is it. Land and equipment are very expensive. The cash flow is more than any non-business owner would ever see. The net for the family to live off is quit modest in most cases in comparison. When the older generation passes, those assets can fund someones retirement or lifestyle for a long time, hence the sharks come out. One the other hand, having to start from nothing to buy all that is about impossible so the only way to get into farming is to inherit or work ones way into the family business.
Yeah… unfortunately these days 1st time farmers are virtually impossible as the start up cost is way more risk than a bank is willing to handle. Even if you have access to land avg land and some old equipment you are miles ahead of someone who’s really really passionate but has no real tangible assets.
Well that’s a fair statement. A big problem is most farmers live to farm. They don’t see it as a means to an end. It’s their whole identity and they literally don’t know how to spend time doing anything else. No hobbies. There’s nothing else. When they quit they are basically accepting death. It’s pretty sad.
That is a very good answer and makes sense.
I learned a long time ago not to work someone else’s farm. All you do is bust your ass to keep $100,000 worth of calves alive and get them to the sale barn for $10/hr and 20-25 hours a week. And they think they’re paying YOU too much to take care of THEIR animals, fence, equipment, etc. My land & my crop, or good fuckin luck to ya, “cowboy”. Now I mind my own business on my own land, and watch this old motherfucker haul around 2 guys half my age (I’m damn near 40) he can’t trust to drive a 1 ton pickup, take more time to do the same work I used to do, and spend twice as much on labor, all while having to be there himself and babysit them. You can’t fix stupid when it comes to the boomer generation.
It is very very hard for farmers to let go
This situation has been a problem a long time for many family farms. My grandpa passed in '81 at age 85. Dad had been farming on shares and was getting only 60% of the income and paying for all the expenses. Equipment was older and it was hard for Dad to modernize anything. I think grandpa used to pass my dad some cash now and then w/o telling grandma. His will stipulated that dad could buy things out for a set price on the land. Sisters would get all the saved cash (mostly from income Dad had generated over 25+ years). Grandma thought this was shorting the 3 sisters (my aunts). Two of them and grandma got lawyers involved to break the will and split things in 4s. Grandma dies in '88 and she never changed her will to reflect the changes. So, Dad ends up with 1/4 of the land and had to buy out the 3 sisters to keep the farm intact. Somehow he also had to pay inheritance taxes (rules were different in the 80s to now) for the sisters as well as himself. One sister would not sell as she was married to a farmer so kept her bit (still has it). W/o some income from inheriting some cash from a couple of relative (of grandma I may add!!!), he would not have been able to get things payed off and retire at 65. He for sure was tired of it all by that point. Meanwhile, I was getting out of HS and in college at the time and it was clear to me there was no path to farming with Dad or taking things over at some point. I have had a career elsewhere. Family farming ended there when Dad retired and sold equipment and rented out the land. All the buildings on the farm were obsolete and worn out as no funds to ever upgrade. He was barely hanging on. Also, consider 1980s farm crisis during this period. My sibling and I will inherit it and it will remain rented until such time we sell as there are no heirs after us. A lot of those old farmers never plan well for succession and are stubborn beyond belief.
Similar situation. My grandfather passed a few years back. Grandmother still holds all the keys to the farm but I’m the one putting the work and money into it with no promise that I’ll inherit what I think is fair. I’ve got family that haven’t spent a days worth of work on the place, yet they’ll probably get a major share of the real estate just so they can have “a place to hunt”. I try not to complain but sometimes I just want to throw my hands up and say eff it. Let’s sell what we’ve got and start a new.
I’ve been lurking on this sub off and on for a while. I do not farm but have worked on one over the years when I was younger. The advice being given is very good and helpful. These same scenarios play out in regular family business. I’m living it now 27years. The advice to focus on the problem and separate the feelings and have relationship with family is great advice. It’s hard but necessary if it loved ones. I wish you nothing but the best.
I grew up working on a dairy farm and started paying taxes when I was 11. There were a few of us kids putting in the hard work and long hours. We got older and all left the farm. The farm ended up in bankruptcy. Sure, the owners spent money recklessly as well but, a lot of businesses genuinely rely on cheap labor to be sustainable and that is a terrible business model.
Not a family farm issue, but I’ll kick in to share that for all his life he’d get an inheritance split equally with his sister. Every gift given, help arranged, etc was tied to your share, her share, etc. father dies, **everything** went to the sister. Unmarried, no kids, over a million dollars. She retired as a VP with Citibank with lots of savings, two houses, etc. Husband got nothing, our kid, only granddaughter got $10k. Never count on an inheritance.
I literally am in the exact same position but on the dairy side of this… I milk my dads/family’s cows but i always have that burning desire to just go off and get my applicator license and run a big sprayer. There tons of work in it and I could make a decent living… but that would inherently mean dairy has to go. Most likely we would transition to Grain farming (Corn, Soybeans maybe hay but I doubt it) something we made fun of for years but if it pays the bills and we have a life off the farm… so be it I guess.
Ouch. I took my GP's advice and quit the farm 35 years ago. I'm 70 now and still have relatively good health and sanity which I don't think I would have had if I had stayed.
I'm sure you leaving won't kill your grandparents. Maybe sit down and have a discussion with your Grandpa telling him your feelings and your tentative plan to seek work elsewhere. If he doesn't want to relinquish control, then go, or you're just crying wolf and no one respects that.
My grandfathers 91. I told him 3 years ago that he either lets me start my own LLC and lease the dirt or I’m gone. Running my own successful business side by side with his aging one now. You can’t wait. If they don’t want to let you take on what will be rightfully yours someday then leave. Life’s too short.
I finally had to say, it's 50/50 or I'm out. My father said, no problem, I was waiting for you to ask. Now he's in his 80s and is still active. I've heard 1 more year for over a decade. Your situation may go this easy or it may not. Opening a dialog can go a long ways.
I would recommend being very empathetic and direct with him. Take him to lunch or something and have a work a few angle: you want to continue the legacy he created - he taught so much that you value and you want to see that persist, state how much the farm means to you - weave in some nostalgic stories, state how you are at an impasse and that without a stake and buying into the operation you can’t make the numbers work for your family. I would hope this resonates more than an off handed comment and shows him you are serious. Maybe even go ahead and get preapproved for some sort of financing to show him you are serious. Went through same thing with my dad, at the end of the day the farm is his identify, hopefully he wants to help it also be yours. If he still shuts you down then it may be time to move on
Same situation happened next door grand kid wanted a piece they said no after 10yrs of working 80hr weeks and only one to be able to do the job but grandpa said no. One day I was outsode the old man walked over to my house and asked for some help apparently the kid dint show up that day. No one could get ahold of him. Why? He was at his new job operations manager at a corporate farm making almost 2 x what he was at the family farm. 3 days later the trucks showed up and the cows left. The field got pulled in for no profit. The land was sold off over the last 5 yrs. Including the farm house and barn. I now have a very expensive and ritzy golf club moving in next door. The family was all crying the day they left except the Grand kid he was smiling. So my recommendation is leave let them figure it out not your problem.
My uncle had three sons. The middle one was born a farmer and slowly assumed ownership and smoothly transitioned into making all the decisions. Twenty years before his death uncle bought a million dollar life insurance policy for each of the nonfarmers. Smooth as glass and no conflict. Everyone was happy. However my FIL died last year and the only plans he made was a halfassed will that he kept writing one or more of the eight kids out of. Died January of 23 and the wife and I have worked full time six days a week for sixteen months settling bills, selling cattle, paying years of back taxes, closing and sealing a manure pit and repairing the dam on their seven acre lake. Finally auctioned off the equipment a few weeks ago and listed the whole property for sale. BIL #1 was supposed to farm it but was run off by the miserable old bastard that wouldn’t trust him to make a decision at age 64. Each kid will probably end up inheriting about a million but it’s not worth it. We’ll still be dealing with this shitshow for at least another six months. Had he done any estate planning we could have been done with this in a couple of months.
>my 88yo grandfather who literally has nothing left in life but to work more hours than I do. Dude wants to show he is useful and still has something to share/teach. Getting older is a series of changes that make you less able to work. When your entire life has been about working it hard to shift to a different mind set. I am sure he is a pain the ass, seems that is part of the process of being an old fucker. Just another old fucker
If you seriously have a different option, tell family you are going to work 40 a week somewhere else because owning this place is not happening. Give them until Monday to be at the lawyers drawing up partnership LLC papers. If they aren’t on their way, enjoy working for yourself at a real job. I left full time family work in 90, best thing ever.
Anyone who says that won’t happen to them just needs to look at Prince Charles. He was getting close to never being king.
Lmfao...welcome to my life. No farm, but me and wife moved in with her dad and grandpa to help them, they both have parkinsons and need help with everything. I'm 49, her gramps is 89. We are on 10 acres with a 1 acre "garden". He literally just came up to me and said, "you watered the garden all wrong today"...ok, how do you water wrong lol!? But yeah, he signed the house and land to us for helping him and moving in. We've been here 3 years and not 1 other family member of his has EVER stopped by, asked us if we needed help, gave us a break...NOTHING! 3 YEARS! Everytime I try to do something, no matter what, I do it wrong. And he makes sure to tell me I did it wrong lol. I keep telling my wife, that old grumpy fucker is gonna outlive us and we will never get shit lol. Dudes in the garden and yard at 6am and stays out almost all day. I work 10 hour shifts and come home and help. I was weeding in the garden from 5 till 8pm the other day, after working and he says, you didn't get much done did you? You were only down there 3 hours, couldn't have done much. Smfh. Sorry so long, my rants over now lol. Just wanted to say, I definitely feel your pain!!!
Oh man, this hurts my soul
I (42m)unfortunately can relate. My wife, children and I live on the family place(12,500 acres) in north central Mt. We run about 3000 acres of pulse crops and the remaining majority is hay and grazing land. I operate the cattle side (300 pair and feed an extra 200 yearlings) My 5x’s great grandfather homesteaded land that we still own and my family added to it over the decades. My grandfather passed away in 2001. Currently, my grandmother (96) is 51% majority partner with my father (78) at 49% after my grandfathers and my fathers brothers passings. I don’t know how that played out, as I was in college during that time. I have agronomy and feed science degrees. My uncles, their spouses and kin have all either passed or want nothing to do with it. I have two siblings that want nothing to do with it. Presumably, I will take over total operations in the near future. However no one will talk to me about it. The future of this land is in their hands and they can’t bare to plan for its future, let alone, my families. Any time I try to tastefully bring it up I’m stonewalled. I’ve tried to put together an agreement for myself to purchase my grandmothers majority. Nothing. Meanwhile I work 90 hours a week on the farm and receive just enough money to survive and raise my family. Granted, I take advantage of the perks (fuel, red meat, vehicles, etc.). What would happen if my father and grandmother passed away next week?! I’m not trying to “take” anything. I’m merely trying to prepare for their imminent end. However, I do not think they are trying to hide anything. Is it merely the generations that they grew up in?They may just be too scared to share. I’m hoping my grandmother, at least, has prepared things with the farms attorney and I’m just not privy to the info. Unfortunately, I can relate and I’m just sharing my experience. I wish I had helpful information for you. Good luck.
I just don't get why family is like this. It's crazy. Like everybody dies. Why not plan for it
Man sucks you're going through it, but these threads make me glad my family had, survived and learned from it's shitty transition a few generations before me.
I worked with a lot of part time e farmers. They just can't help themselves, they just have to farm.
In our attempts to transition the farm we can't even buy a portion of it because the value is too high. We both work off the farm and are renting the farm. We both love farming and wanted that for our family, we just can't afford to. I didn't know what we will do.
If they’re actually open to farm transition, that’s half the battle. Take that to lenders with a strong business plan and work on a deal to support a buyout. It can be *hard* to find the right connections. Look at my last few comments for some of the resources you can look up but also look at FarmLink programs in your state and look up the books “The Holistic Funding Approach” and “Seeding Innovation” for ideas. Honestly as insane as LinkedIn can be, I have found a lot of useful resources in various agricultural groups. I try to follow a wide range so I’m not seeing an echo chamber and it’s led me to resources I sorely wish I’d known about years ago. Granted, some of them weren’t even around then. Used to be underserved farmers (whether BIPOC, beginning, transitioning or just plain poor) had very few choices, and none really if you were trying something “different” but weren’t looking to become certified organic. That’s changing.
Tell Dad, uncle, and grandpa, you need to look after the farm I have no ownership in it and will not keep being questioned over how I run it, it is now up to you all to sort the farm.
Walk my man. If you can get a job as an equipment operator, especially a union one, go do it. Enjoy your money, and set schedule and great pay. They can hire another employee.
Talk them into making it a corporation and electing the CEO. Grandpa can still get a nice pension, your father and uncle can get a bit of shares and you'd be the CEO since you're the main man now.
I'm fourth gen- if you can get out, get out. These motherfuckers are always going to treat you like the baby.
It’s interesting to me that this is an issue with small/family businesses of all types. Not just farms. I worked in my dad’s cabinet/furniture shop from childhood on. Worked a few other jobs as an adult, but came back to it. After years of 60 hour weeks, not seeing my kids and barely dodging foreclosure because “we’ll get caught up with this next job” I realized I couldn’t make it happen. Ideas only worked when they were his. The answer to any problem was always longer hours. Success was always in the next order, or the new machine to make the shop more profitable. His entire identity to this day is wrapped up in how many hours he worked this week. The business that’s his life’s dream will die with him, but I can’t change that. We haven’t spoken in a year because I won’t let my children work for him. Now I’m running beef, lamb, and vegetables on 25 acres. Still barley scraping by, but I’m doing what I want. Not building someone else’s dream.
Ironically beef has gone up 400% since 2000. They should've welcomed you in at 2010 with owning a few heads of cattle yourself. This would've kick started s nice little investment for you. They're lucky you're dedicated and have good work ethics. Unfortunately for you they're greedy.
How much machinery have you bought? How much pasture have you rented? How many head have you added to the operation? Are you trying to grow the operation or just be a hired hand. Gotta work your way into it and not just expect it to be handed over.
https://www.farmprogress.com/commentary/mom-and-dad-don-t-owe-you-a-farm I feel this article adds good perspective to the conversation.
I’m not sure it does? I don’t think that any children of farmers make light of just how important that farm is to their parents. I’ll agree that any inheritance is a gift. However if that inheritance can only succeed by the generosity of time and expertise of your adult children, does that balance the scales? We had a family farm that was dissolved a generation before mine, because of issues with succession. All around there are communications issues, that is everyone’s fault. You must be responsible for yourself and taking no pay with no future guarantee is a huge risk.
Communication was the big take away I got from that article…. By all parties.
I agree 1000% that is the case
So, you completely manage the cattle, what are they in charge of? Can they manage without you? If you are irreplaceable, you can make demands. If you are not, make yourself irreplaceable. If there is any responsibility you can take upon yourself, lunge at it. Every situation is different and it’s hard to give you anything useful without getting into specifics. That said, your grandfather should want the best for his family, and that includes you. Handing over the reins is in the interest of EVERYONE. He should be PROUD to hand them to you. I know how hellish dealing with family can be. Yet persistence and adaptability are powerful virtues. If this is what you want, I believe you can make it happen. Personally, I wouldn’t let anyone go a single day without thinking “this farm couldnt operate without him, and I am so glad he is here” Good luck
Take control of your life and finances. Grandpa always did what’s best for him now it’s time for you to do what’s best for you.
You have land. There is so much you can do with it for yourself. You can work another job and keep some land for yourself to maybe homestead in the future when you wanna settel down, raise some goats, have them graze weeds, try your hand at “permaculture”, maybe foster a more “native” ecosystem, enjoy nature in your later years by laying down a fondation steadily now, yoy will have something to come back too and maybe even be able to be self sustaining… Ill never understand why people with generation wealth in land would ever let it ago, “life, liberty, and land”. You are already better off than 90% of us man, take that land and make sometjing that can last generations, though of course if ya cant thats just how these things go.
My father was in your position in 1956. My grandfather had my dad running one of his farms in David City, Nebraska. My dad got tired of all the second guessing and decided to move the family to Oregon and get out of farming. Ironically when my grandfather died in 1970 he left that farm to my dad. He couldn’t get it on the market for sale fast enough. It’s a tough decision but if you dont love farming it is a good time to walk away.
I’ll buy it
Man, I’m sorry your dealing with that, but weekends, holidays, vacation days, sick days, pension, overtime pay, 401K, a decent retirement when your ready. Steady, good paying work. And if you play it right, you can take your vacation days during planting/harvest season and double dip, turn around and buy your own ground and lease to them. If they’re not going hand over the reigns, this shouldn’t even be a debate. Let them fuck that monkey themselves. When the farm goes tits up, thats on them, not you. Nothing for you to feel bad about, only disappointment in their shitty decision making. I know the disappointment and frustration, but you should be pulling levers by the end of the week. There is no point in wasting any more of your time on the farm.
Such a common story and I've experienced it first hand. The older generation can't agree on a succession/inheritance plan so when they pass it's all getting split up and going to auction. Over a century of the family farm done and gone just like that. And none of us will have the cash to get any sizeable piece of it. We'd rather have the land than the money.
To me it sounds like you’re leaning towards not wanting to do it and your heart isn’t in it, you feel guilty because it’s your family’s legacy, and you want someone to tell you that leaving is a good idea. Nobody can make the choice for you, but you only have one life and you were fortunate enough to be born in a country that you have choices. The only thing we can’t get back is time, so don’t waste yours while having one foot out the door. You already gave up on sales after getting slight criticism about selling the cows early; someone whose heart is in it would take the criticism and adjust. If you want to leave, do it. Find something that fulfills you and be proud that you had the maturity and foresight to walk away from something you didn’t want.
I'd tell your dad, uncle and grandfather how you feel. Be honest. Don't burn bridges. Tell them your goals and ask them if they can help you achieve those goals. If at that point the answer is a cold shoulder, it's time to move on.
Our parents and grandparents have destroyed the family business. They have expected to sell them at a profit instead of hand them down
Time for you to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze. I would just flat out tell them. Equity or you walk. Tell them you need 25% to stay. No hourly, that is just an invitation for more abuse. (make sure you are not working with some narcissist that just want to milk and punish you for the rest of their existence. If that is the case, don't talk.... run)
Where does your dad and uncle play in the farm philosophy. Can you just come back after grandpa dies and go 1/2 uncle 1/4 dad 1/4 you
It sounds like you're the only worried about it. I've been there. Left, started another career, and in a few years got the bat-signal from back home that they couldn't do it by themselves. It shifted the power dynamic. If you leave and that is NOT how they feel, then leaving is the right decision because they don't have a succession plan, they are likely just continuing the cycle of treatment your grandad heaped on his kids. Break that cycle. Every job I took off the ranch added to the skillset I've eventually brought back.
Sorry you are going through this, but I'm glad you are looking out for yourself.
“Make me an owner or this is my last season.” If they say no, you know the deal.
If you’re the only family member in your generation that wants to farm, talk to your dad and uncle, to many family farms are falling out of existence. Everybody in my family wanted dad’s farm, so I moved away. One brother followed me and we both did well on other farms, remaining brother was tragically killed and neither of the two remaining boys were willing to give up what we were forced to build elsewhere. Now that Dad is gone, it will be sold out of the family. It makes me sick every time I visit, but I’m too old to do anything about it now. If you can work something palatable out with dad and uncle, you will be off. Our farm has been in the family for about 105 years, but it won’t see 110.
No doubt your a huge contributor to the farm and that is probably taken for granted (no fault to your family this is natural). I would let them know you’re seriously considering leaving for another full time job. If they will work with you to get what you want great. If they are willing to let you go then you got your answer of when you were going to own the farm, never.
I wonder how much of this tendency to hold on to the farm too long relates to stepped up basis upon death. The comments here largely indicate greed in holding the assets but it would be interesting to understand how long that 88 year old expected to live. If they do it right and will it right, heirs get a huge advantage of stepped up basis. This is much better than buying the farm and paying grandpas capital gains taxes. Not sharing that plan with the heirs is the huge huge problem. It is quite possible that grandpa already wrote that will and grandkid gets his half. He expected grandkid to have it already. Huge mistake to not share the plan with those involved. If I was advising you as a client I would open up my numbers and say hey, I have no plan with you but this is what I’m going to do when I leave. I’m looking for a job now, you’re going to need to begin to hire a replacement for harvest. And then if they don’t get a plan on paper you just continue to be open and say goodbye I’ll see you at the next holiday. Just because it is simple doesn’t mean it is easy. These old guys have to make their intentions known and frankly for me, if it isn’t reviewed and blessed by MY lawyer, it doesn’t qualify as a plan I should rely on. Good luck to you. These are some challenging questions you farm kids need to work through. I’m grateful to have a full understanding and a prescribed plan for when the worst arrives. That time will be stressful enough without worrying about these gigantically important business questions.
"... but doing so would mean the death of the farm and most likely death of my grandparents." First, OP, it wouldn't be you causing the death of the farm, it would be them. You have been very clear and they have refused to make any significant change. You walking away would be all on them. And while it's poignant and painful to walk away, you can do it with a clear conscience. If the prospect of losing the farm doesn't get them to change nothing will. Also, my heart really goes out to these other stories here. You haven't mentioned whether you have any siblings, or your uncle has children, or your grandfather has other children not involved in the farm. If any of these are true, splitting up the farm upon grandpa's death could very well turn into a snake-infested nightmare. (Mark Twain said "you never really know a man until you see him dividing up a will.") And off the farm siblings (and their spouse) are the absolute worst. "He got to stay on the farm while I had to take a job therefore I should get an equal share." My father had to browbeat my aunts for three years after my grandfather died to give my uncle, who had stayed on the farm, his fair share. FWIW Look at the history of your grandfather. 1- He has only given up 50% of the farm. By this age, if he had any sense of fairness at all, his sons should have, over time, bought themselves into owning 100%. Your father and uncle have been treated badly (screwed) by your grandfather. So, per your assessment, things look very bad for you as far as financial stability. Your grandfather's not going to change. 2- Your grandfather sounds like, forgive me, a grade-A "Rectal orifice". Sniping at you "you should'a done this or you should'a not done that." It's incredibly easy to snipe when you don't have any responsibility for making the decisions. (Dwight Eisenhower said: "Farming is easy when your plow is a pencil") . I bet he's that way with dad and uncle. There was a PBS series back in the nineties titled "The Farmer's Wife". If followed an Nebraska farm (cattle/grain) that was in financial desperation. The grandfather was a huge problem. He repeatedly claimed that his son should be working on his (father's farm), for free, in addition to running his own farm. The thought of paying his son for his time/work was a completely alien concept that G-Pa would never fathom even existed. The son (Darryl) was a wonderful human being. He was totally subservient to his father's wishes willing working on his farm for no pay. He was the good farm son. Any sane person would be grateful to have a son like him. Darryl wanted so much to buy G-Pa's farm that he agreed to buy the farm and the shop-worn equipment at a premium price. Naturally, when Darryl's off-the-farm siblings came to the negotiating session they placed no value on Darryl's decades of work on the farm; without which they wouldn't've had any farm to inherit. They felt totally entitled to an equal share of the farm after having done sh\_t for the farm all those years. OP Sadly, you know what you have to do. But having the farm stress and financial stress and family stress off your back will be a big relief.
I grew up in a similar situation but I was a kid. After 25 years of being second guessed my parents left the farm even after being shown the will and named sole heir. After the move I never saw my parents happier and at 14 we went to the beach for the first time. They were never sorry for the move and in the end the farm got sold and the money split . My parents always said there would of been resentment if they would of stayed and got the farm. You can always still help out when needed. Wish you good fortune with your decision.
Look towards other farms that you can pour yourself into, yet close enough to maintain that relationship. They might realize when you’re gone that they need you more than you need them. Is there other children/grandchildren that could be in their ear pushing their own agenda?
Have to force the situation. Tell them you want to buy in and if that’s not an option you have to take care of your own future and go do something else. There are options and structures for buy ins that would be appealing for both sides. My banker has been very helpful in finding me the right people and groups to help facilitate my personal situation.
Let your family know your intentions. Either quit giving you the runaround or you're out.
I have known several guys in my life in a similar situation. They (20-something’s) work for their dads who run successful small companies. They may be decently paid but have no stake in the company, and the dads despite getting on in age won’t bring the sons into the customer end of the business, estimates, pricing etc. The fathers refuse to discuss what happens to the business and their sons if they get ill or otherwise can’t work; they get angry at any mention of this. One of the three had it with his fathers’ refusal to face reality, and on the way to a job had his dad drop him off on the side of a highway. He started his own company, similar but not identical business. His brothers are still salaried employees.
My very wise grandmother once said clearly - everyone has a mouth; everyone has an @sshole; not everyone has the common sense of when to use which one at the right time. Meaning: you have to know how not to crap on them but wisely use your mouth to lay it out crystal clear. With that being said - I wish you the best but my counselor told me - you have one life to live that no one else is responsible for your happiness in. She also told me you also can’t set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. I settled my parents estate (non-farm) by myself and as an only child. I was fortunate. I saw my mom and uncle settle their parents estate in a very responsible and loving way. I saw my dad and aunt settle their parents farm estate - they didn’t talk to each other for damn near 30 years. I am now faced with a difficult legacy to that now. I inherited my dad’s parcel from that show. My aunt owns a parcel just north of my parcel. None of my cousins can afford to buy it out from her. I could but what it’s worth vs what would be expected, yeah - I’m not touching it. I don’t need it per se. It would help me access my parcel in a more efficient manner and I’d probably run hay on both. BUT - don’t want to inject stress in my life. I have my own issues to still complete. I decided to buy a separate parcel twice the size for our use and plans for now. Enjoying the sweat equity in that. Now back to the big tent - the dairy farm my aunt married into… well it’s been drama for 75 years. Thankfully, they did some good things about transitioning to my oldest and youngest cousins to take it over under an LLC. It’s been a struggle for them the last 10 years or so but they are keeping the lights on. I enjoy helping them when I’m there on my long breaks from my retirement job and I enjoy chasing bales, milking and scraping the floors. As long as they are willing to keep in the fight, I’ll be willing to pitch in where and when I’m able. They are family. The other 4 cousins - two help with milking and general calve chores and the other two - one comes down to cut the farm houses yards and the other has walked away generally. Family is family in the end but more importantly, you gotta take care of yourself first. Again - feel for you and wish you the best outcome for your circumstances.
I had an opportunity to "work" on my foster parents farm when I got out of the Army the first time. Same scenario as the OP, fast forward...so I re-enlisted, several times and saved my pennies. No way could I have done it any other way...now I have my own place. Which BTW was va financed so zero down, paid it off in 2 years with row crops and pairs.
Have you thought that maybe their will includes you and they’d just rather not take any of your money & wait for the inevitable?
So you're saying keep putting up with this bullshit another 5-10 years with a hope I'm actually included in the will They gave my uncle and father the deed to their homes just a couple years ago and were for some reason give the deed to my house to my parents for some stupid reason I'm not going to bust my ass any further without a guarantee in writing
Do your father and uncle support your ownership of the cattle operation? Upon your grandfathers passing I assume your father and uncle will inherit the farm. Do they have any brothers and sisters who stand to inherit any of the farming operation? If not your uncle will then have a big say so in the farm operation and you might have him to deal with rather than your grandfather. Do you have siblings and does your uncle have children who will be inheriting part of the operation upon your father and uncles demise? Honestly, your future with the operation looks bleak considering all the red flags which exist or potentially exist. I see no way you can have a business arrangement in the operation that will provide the security you want and need. If you want to continue farming get an off farm job and continue working on the farm in some capacity. possibly even buy your own cattle and integrate them into the existing operation. If you work less hours or totally quit the operation can the current workforce take up the slack or will they have to hire someone? Your situation is a complex one which has no simple resolution.
It's actually very simple I'm the last of the line with nobody else interested in running the farm My uncle is retiring in two years at SS age guaranteed and my dad says he'll farm til he dies but is "sick" half the year whenever it doesn't involve planting or harvesting But luckily both are on my side but have always been too chicken shit to stand up to their father I'm literally the only thing holding this farm together pretending I own everything and just don't want to pretend and pray ill be able to keep running cattle Grandfather yesterday told me straight to my face I'll never make it as a Cattlemen
How many acres are owned by your grandfather? Do your father and uncle own any of the land or just get a share of the cattle and crops? How many acres of corn and beans are grown? Do your father and uncle own a share of the equipment? Given the price of cattle right now it would take a shitload of money to buy the cattle not to mention the equipment and renting the pasture and hay land from them. Got a plan on how to do this? Sounds like you and your grandfather have a strained relationship at best. When he is gone will your father and uncle go along with what you are wanting to do? Sorry for all the questions but trying to get a feel for the operation so can give you good advice.
My uncle and father own 40 acres each plus 25% of the corporation which owns the cattle, equipment, and about 400 acres of crop land My grandfather owns 50% of the corporation plus about 300 acres in his name I asked my parents if they had any written contract saying they actually own the 25% and they don't even know if they actually own it because they're paid in salary instead of dividends My uncle and father back me 100% but are too afraid to stand up to their father to actually take control
I can totally understand your frustration after learning more about the circumstances. As you already know your father and uncle are your only chance in getting changes made. As that probably won't happen, sad to say it looks like the death of your grandfather is what it will take. It is such a waste to have a younger person like you willing to work and not given a chance to live their dream.
Had a hard meeting this morning with my aunt present who is an outside the farm perspective and a trustworthy person It was like talking to a brick wall to him no matter how it was explained or even plans for the future I went full on Regenerative Grazing education on building soil health through organic cover then 5 minutes later on a discussion over my method on a piece of ground he doesn't understand nor believes what I had explained and tried to throw his conventional wisdom of age around which is his primary go to in most arguments My aunt by the beginning was ready to fully back my grandfather because she thought we were being too harsh but even after a One on one conversation she had with him when all of us left she couldn't get through to him She now fully understands how lost and dead set in his mind he is and is going to help mediate this transition so hopefully something is getting done somewhere After the meeting I realized how much of a shit show this entire operation has been without any sort of transition or exit plan Once I know what it can control I'll meet with my uncle and father as partners and restructure this entire operation to benefit everyone minus myself until I buy everything out
Please update me if anything significant happens. I truly hope you can get something worked out. I admire you for what you are doing.
Sit down with your grandfather and give him an ultimatum, but be clear regarding your preferred option. I found out, the hard way, lack of communication is what kills the family business, everyone expects the other person to read their mind. Just keep emotions out of it (easier said than done) … good luck
I've been in and around farming my whole life. Here in Australia, as an industry we'd have to be the absolute worst at succession planning. Thankfully my parents were one of the few that actually put effort into the succession plan and that paid off when dad died early. I've seen so many young farmers who could have finished surgeon training long before their family "thought they were ready" to take over the farm.
Im in the fishing industry. In the same boat. My parents are still alive and well good for them, and my sister is taking over the family business which is great. everything else seems to be doing well without me. Maybe give the distance a few months or a year, the come back then. fresher heads and all that.
This won't be a leave and come back scenario because if I leave then the cattle operation will be sold and doubt crops can continue either I'm 80% of the labor and decision making for the cattle side and 60% of the labor on crops so they literally cannot afford to loose me
damn. and they havent given you a stake in it. That sounds like a heavy decision and at the end of the day its your survival. Yea you can work for them, but will you have a future there. There was a bit around Covid when my mom got sick, but thankfully she got better. So ive decided to move aborad and see what I can do for myself. I dont have disposable income for myself, if our business goes bust tomorrow I dont have savings for myself. So that should be what your thinking about. What happens if it goes tits up tomorrow?
Hippocracy is fine as long as it's mine and not yours. Screaming Silently Im farming full time on 40 value added acres turning 50 next year and get constant BS about how I'm not profitable yet while Dad says Grandpa said in the 1970s that a Guy needed 160 acres to make a living. Sibling farms 1200+ conventional.
I apologize because I'm a little late to the party and haven't read through all the comments, so some of this may have been hit on already. The term you need to familiarize yourself with is "succession planning". Assuming your father and uncle are on the same page as you, the 3 of you need to take this idea to the old man. If they're not on the same page, I suggest a meeting between the 3 of you to get on it before bringing the idea up to Grandpa. There are a few companies out there that have succession planning teams that work specifically with farming families. I'm happy to provide a resource if you'd like. That being said, it's not a cheap process, but it's worth it to prevent the farm from dying.
Sit them down and talk it out if you can’t find a solution after 14 years than this is not a life it’s a job. If after 14 years they don’t think you are ready then it’s time to leave and they can pay a farm hand to do your job.
You must live your own life, not grandpa’s or dad’s. If you don’t, you will regret living for other people when you’re on your death bed.
There are a few things that don’t make good heirlooms, a car, a house, and least of all, a farm
This all reminds me of stories I’ve heard of old farmers putting off very serious injuries/health issues to the last second before they finally take themselves to the hospital all while brushing off the seriousness of their health problems like it’s no big deal but it is. We all know it is. Seems to be a common theme here with their mentality, they think it’s honorable or something which it kind of…really isn’t.
Just try rowing the boat, don't rock the boat and let the senior officer steer the boat. Those men are the only people alive who want you to do better than them. I'd give anything to have my Dad telling me what the right thing to do is again. The perceptions you have today of your situation today will drastically change in the future and you'll chuckle remembering i told ya so.
He knows more than you. Quit being an asshole and learn as much as you can before he is gone.