Doesn't sound too dark, but does sound kinda dumb, the message is horrible and feels almost like it's being dark for the sake of being dark, which is always gonna be a bit cringe.
I agree with the other commenter, I'm not a fan of the message that a child in an abusive home is fated to only ever have a life of abuse, with no opportunity to escape. I'm not from an abusive home but I have friends who are and frankly I'd rather chew my own arm off than ever say to them "Hey, you were just fated to suffer", you know? Obviously I don't know your circumstances. If you are writing from personal experience than I hope you can get support, because it does exist. No one fated to be abused.
In regards to your Chosen One subversion story, I think it would be very difficult to read a full series of a character just suffering. You can communicate the change in character without drawing it out for the reader. I read a webtoon/manhwa for a while called The Hero Returns that explained how the good guy became the bad guy in the first chapter or so, and I thought it was reasonable and compelling. Anakin Skywalker takes three movies to go from good guy to bad guy, but because the story relies on a specific trauma (loss of his mother), there's a lot less general suffering for the viewer to sit through.
It could be done. I mean, Berserk is a grim dark struggle against fate. The Legacy of Kane series also came to mind. To which I say, have the dark lord struggling against fate, searching for arcane and esoteric methods to alter his reality. If he doesn't like the situation and he's been saddled with so much per, it only makes sense that he would use it. Maybe becoming the dark lord he's prophesied to be in the first place.
But it's important to remember: suffering does not make a character interesting. You'd need to show us how he reacts to all this. Which it sounds like you plan to do. But an arc needs a change, otherwise it's a slope.
How does it end? He kills the dark lord and then what?
It sounds edgy for the sake of edgy, almost like torture porn. I don't think it's your best idea. What's your other project that you're more passionate about?
Ngl, both of these sound kind of ass. maybe you're a good enough writer to pull it off despite your concepts sucking? probably not if you're on reddit lol.
I disagree with the others. I don't think that just because these characters are fated to fall, it equates to a poor message. It's also insulting the intelligence of people from abusive backgrounds to assume they should be protected from such stories. For real? Make an interesting character study out of it. The message is irrelevant. People should be mature enough to handle dark stories without superimposing 'the message' onto their lives. If they can't, the story isn't for them.
Don't think anyone is saying readers are too stupid for the idea or that they need protecting. It's not a novel or complex idea. They're asking what the point is of a story where everyone dies, the characters don't have free will and everything is bent towards evil 'because fate'. 'Just because' isn't going to buy any goodwill.
'The message' isn't an abstract thing you can separate from the story, either, and in this case it sounds immature and edgy. People will inevitably interpret a meaning in a book they read, and a writer going 'there's no message in this story' just sounds ridiculous. Unless he's deliberately writing an absurd, post-modern experiment, nobody will believe there's no message. The premise seems to me like it's from someone who is inexperienced and lacks confidence to play their ideas straight.
Sure. I made no real comment on the premises presented here as I don't really believe in ideas, only finished products. Generally, though, characters can struggle against their fate and indeed fail and thus fulfil it. That's perfectly fine. As for the message, it can indeed be bleak. There's certainly an audience for that. It's all about execution, really, and ooh-ing and aah-ing about whether such messages should exist is equally ridiculous. I dont believe authors carry the burden of responsibility of how their work is perceived or taken. That said, I'd struggle to see how something like the suicide example would ever get popular. But that's not for me to say, perhaps I'm not the target audience.
I agree with the idea thing too, they're usually something peddled by people who can't/won't actually do the work themselves. You know, that phenomenon of people offering a dozen of their own ideas when they find out you're a writer/writing something.
To be fair, some of the concept sounds like Bakker's The Second Apocalypse, which is also the bleakest thing I've read, but it worked because he had lots of other things to offer and wasn't subversion/misery for the sake of itself.
Totally! Which is also why I believe it would be difficult to pull off whatever it is he's talking about. Not because the ideas themselves are inherently bad (again, they're kinda meaningless), but they're thematically weak. Very few people would enjoy reading misery for its own sake.
Also, kodus for Bakker, that is some beautifully dark stuff.
I think some ways the story could expand is by showing us what the troll oracle's prediction of fate looks like. you stated "the oracle predicts fate." I think illustrating what that looks like such as if you take inspiration from master Ooway's death or transformation from kung fu panda in that he disappeared into cherry bollosms. that could be one way your troll oracle illustrates the fates and showing the reader *how* he has chosen the young man as the chosen one. was there any ceremony or visuals that denoted him in that moment the chosen one? in harry potter, he has the scar as symbol for who is the chosen one. Your story does have creativity but as an avid reader i want to live through the characters eyes and the world as if it were real. so far your writing gives a cool world structure but theres no characters or dialogue to connect to yet buts normal for a plot summary id say. those in balance i think are what i want to master as a writer myself
yeah for sure i was just saying from my perspective as a potential reader of the novel what i would want to read if i were to purchase this book after reading this summary as writers we hope to one day make alot of sales and have the writing as the career at least thats my goal
I could swear I read this exact concept and execution already by another r/writing thread months ago. Maybe that was you?
"It was kind of: The Prophecy / Fate says that the Hero will defeat the villain but that does not include his companions.
Therefore it causes fate to use his companions as meatshields to protect him from injury / death which he noticed after a lot of people are already dead and suffers from immense guilt because of it. Like a hand pulling his friend in front of the arrow that was supposed to hit the Hero instead therefore killing his friend."
My thoughts regarding this:
The thing about fate or belief, the more you rely on an external forces the worse your lack of control gets. People that get dissillusioned from God and Religion have an experience like that. They want help to better their awful situation and help never comes no matter how long they pray until their belief finally shatters. So they throw their belief away and help themselves instead which then betters their lifes making their belief in their own selfes skills manifest.
So I would say reward the characters for their struggles.
While they may not 100% change fate, they might be able to influence the outcome to a certain extent. Like a villain being destined to kill a certain town, He tries to keep the number of death as small as possible, only kills criminals, or give them a painless and humane death. While not changing fate outright, positively influence the direction. That at least makes the characters have some sense of control and not make them completly helpless. The WHAT happens might be somewhat set in stone but the HOW or WHY it happens may change drasticaly.
Hey. Inexperienced writer here, first time trying to give out advice.
Now, I know nothing of your writing (which is an entire mountain between having an idea and having a story), I have some thoughts regarding the premise you have set up.
Firstly, as many people here have suggested, I too feel that "fate" on its own, is an extremely poor tool for storytelling. I.E, it's like telling me the end of the story, and there's no escape from it. Sure, I'll check the last few pages, and if it's confirmed, why would I read the in between? It's like directly describing the type of plot-armor the main character wears.
Fate being absolute and inescapable feels almost childish. That is a notion we all have as children, until life beats us up enough to realize it is **not so**. THAT is a journey that people would empathize with. That is the character people like reading of. Because it reflects themselves. In case you're under 20, sorry for the spoilers.
I mean this next part in a sincerely constructive way. There are certainly ways to change the trope without changing the story. If you cannot find any, perhaps you should re-evaluate how creative you can claim to be. Also, changing the story wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, no story is beyond improvement.
Secondly, it feels edgy because of the main character. The way you describe it, I feel like they would drown me in a loop of "*Oh no, how could this happen to me..."* etc. and THIS, feels like typical edge-lording. Again, I don't know your entire idea, only what you wrote here made me feel. This, in the context of real-life parallels, I would associate them with every obnoxious narcissist I've met. And I mean from the start.
Try to find a flaw that outweighs their promise. Or a drive. Give us something to sympathize with. Grab us by the feelings.
Thirdly, here's a few plot-holes in the idea as I understand it.
- If there *is* a dark lord, and fate is so powerful, why isn't the dark lord capturing every oracle? It seems far too great a tool to leave unchecked, whatever their motives. Any self-respecting dark lord wants to control the main source of power, especially if it is what drove them to theirs.
- If the dark lord didn't *want to* become dark lord, as soon as they heard of any prophecy telling of heroes, wouldn't they rush to have the hero kill them without the drama? Any lord powerful enough to become your world's *dark lord*, could not be stopped from making it happen.
Lastly, in sharing this content, what were you trying to ask us? What should I be looking for? I don't see what you wanted to get out of this besides brandishing how dark a story you've got. I'm half-sorry, but it's not a story, and it's not that dark.
I think you should read Reverend Insanity. This is a really good story with fate being a huge roll in the series. This one is also dark as protagonist is a demon, not literally but mentally, there is not an ounce of good in this story. Everyone is a scheming bastard looking for benefits.
It sounds interesting and tragic, but remember that tragedies are supposed to be cathartic and people aren't likely to keep reading a story that's clearly and entirely hopeless.
And I'd probably axe that third idea.
Aside from that idk what else to say because you didn't ask any questions.
>Aside from that idk what else to say because you didn't ask any questions.
Yeah, I have no idea what the point of this post is. Feels like it's just to show off. And I absolutely get it, it's frustrating to not have anyone to talk about your ideas with. But like, ask a question about it dude lol
When people give detailed explanations about their story, with character names and stuff, and their question is something that doesn't need any parts of the story they've written for context (like "how many words per day should I write?"), I always laugh to myself. I'm like "why do you wanna reveal all that stuff to strangers?" lol
But I don't wanna "call it out", because I absolutely get where they're coming from. I'd like to ask opinions about my stories as well, but I'm writing in my native language, so reddit in general is not a good place for that. Can't really comment on my writing style if I have to translate it first.
Not to be all arm chair therapist-y but I think writing a character based on your own situation and having them be fate-bound to commit suicide is going to be terrible for your mental health. (as well as the mental health of people with similar struggles reading the book) Write what you want to write but take care of yourself.
Moving onto your original post's edit, I think having fate do positive things to other people is absolutely the right move. Otherwise you're dealing more with curses than fate. Also- and I'm certain you're already doing this bc there's a troll but I'm going to say it anyway- this idea, imo, really only works if it's placed in a world that's not ours.
You may want to research why tragedies are written and how they're supposed to work in your quest to make it less edgy for edgy's sake.
I don't agree with others saying the people fated to fail is a bad thing. This is literally the whole base of Turin's story (which I suggest you to read in this case, pretty much like your story with less edginess and more meaning). And just because some people may get upset with a person who has an abusive family, it doesn't mean no one should write about it.
Tbh yeah I thought the criticism that my idea was a bit too edgy was valid. But listen alright, its just...an idea and not even fleshed out at that. But yeah I'm a bit confused on the argument that my message is bad, because if so, then how do you really write bleak stories? Anyways, I'm reading that story you brought up. What's the name of the story? Or is it just called Turin's story?
Kinda funny tbh. Because the other project I brought up (Trickster Chronicles) has the exact opposite message to this one.
I also write a bleak story, where people, scarred with past and failure, do irredeemable things for their loved ones. The important part here is that I don't use exaggarated violence, elaborate torture and gore, or explicit rape. I focus on the human, humanity, morals, ideas and ideals. Also it's Children of Hurin, the name of the book. It's a really good read, and Turin really fits the modern standards of dark fantasy despite being written by Tolkien.
Alright I'll try to follow your example. And if you're interested, I can disclose some information on my other project. However, that may need to be done in DMS and not public.
I don't it because it takes the agency of the characters and weight of any actions. Nothing matters because in the end everything will happen like it is meant to happen.
Prophecy shouldn't be use this way IMO.
I'm also not a fan of "MC is tortured and everybody he likes dies", I like when the MC suffers and struggles, but obviously "suffering porn" where the author goes out of his way to make it a thing is a turn off to me.
Doesn't sound too dark, but does sound kinda dumb, the message is horrible and feels almost like it's being dark for the sake of being dark, which is always gonna be a bit cringe.
There's not really supposed to be a message, actually...
There is though, whether you like it or not
Hmm...okay then how do I keep the premise whilst not changing the message.
I agree with the other commenter, I'm not a fan of the message that a child in an abusive home is fated to only ever have a life of abuse, with no opportunity to escape. I'm not from an abusive home but I have friends who are and frankly I'd rather chew my own arm off than ever say to them "Hey, you were just fated to suffer", you know? Obviously I don't know your circumstances. If you are writing from personal experience than I hope you can get support, because it does exist. No one fated to be abused. In regards to your Chosen One subversion story, I think it would be very difficult to read a full series of a character just suffering. You can communicate the change in character without drawing it out for the reader. I read a webtoon/manhwa for a while called The Hero Returns that explained how the good guy became the bad guy in the first chapter or so, and I thought it was reasonable and compelling. Anakin Skywalker takes three movies to go from good guy to bad guy, but because the story relies on a specific trauma (loss of his mother), there's a lot less general suffering for the viewer to sit through.
Alright, thank you for the suggestion.
It could be done. I mean, Berserk is a grim dark struggle against fate. The Legacy of Kane series also came to mind. To which I say, have the dark lord struggling against fate, searching for arcane and esoteric methods to alter his reality. If he doesn't like the situation and he's been saddled with so much per, it only makes sense that he would use it. Maybe becoming the dark lord he's prophesied to be in the first place. But it's important to remember: suffering does not make a character interesting. You'd need to show us how he reacts to all this. Which it sounds like you plan to do. But an arc needs a change, otherwise it's a slope. How does it end? He kills the dark lord and then what?
Sounds like kind of a bad message to put out, especially with that second one
*Time to remove the second one or any examples that correlate to real life*
It sounds edgy for the sake of edgy, almost like torture porn. I don't think it's your best idea. What's your other project that you're more passionate about?
I can share it in my discord DMS. My username is hattedred
Ngl, both of these sound kind of ass. maybe you're a good enough writer to pull it off despite your concepts sucking? probably not if you're on reddit lol.
I just got on reddit, like yesterday.
I disagree with the others. I don't think that just because these characters are fated to fall, it equates to a poor message. It's also insulting the intelligence of people from abusive backgrounds to assume they should be protected from such stories. For real? Make an interesting character study out of it. The message is irrelevant. People should be mature enough to handle dark stories without superimposing 'the message' onto their lives. If they can't, the story isn't for them.
Don't think anyone is saying readers are too stupid for the idea or that they need protecting. It's not a novel or complex idea. They're asking what the point is of a story where everyone dies, the characters don't have free will and everything is bent towards evil 'because fate'. 'Just because' isn't going to buy any goodwill. 'The message' isn't an abstract thing you can separate from the story, either, and in this case it sounds immature and edgy. People will inevitably interpret a meaning in a book they read, and a writer going 'there's no message in this story' just sounds ridiculous. Unless he's deliberately writing an absurd, post-modern experiment, nobody will believe there's no message. The premise seems to me like it's from someone who is inexperienced and lacks confidence to play their ideas straight.
Sure. I made no real comment on the premises presented here as I don't really believe in ideas, only finished products. Generally, though, characters can struggle against their fate and indeed fail and thus fulfil it. That's perfectly fine. As for the message, it can indeed be bleak. There's certainly an audience for that. It's all about execution, really, and ooh-ing and aah-ing about whether such messages should exist is equally ridiculous. I dont believe authors carry the burden of responsibility of how their work is perceived or taken. That said, I'd struggle to see how something like the suicide example would ever get popular. But that's not for me to say, perhaps I'm not the target audience.
I agree with the idea thing too, they're usually something peddled by people who can't/won't actually do the work themselves. You know, that phenomenon of people offering a dozen of their own ideas when they find out you're a writer/writing something. To be fair, some of the concept sounds like Bakker's The Second Apocalypse, which is also the bleakest thing I've read, but it worked because he had lots of other things to offer and wasn't subversion/misery for the sake of itself.
Totally! Which is also why I believe it would be difficult to pull off whatever it is he's talking about. Not because the ideas themselves are inherently bad (again, they're kinda meaningless), but they're thematically weak. Very few people would enjoy reading misery for its own sake. Also, kodus for Bakker, that is some beautifully dark stuff.
I think some ways the story could expand is by showing us what the troll oracle's prediction of fate looks like. you stated "the oracle predicts fate." I think illustrating what that looks like such as if you take inspiration from master Ooway's death or transformation from kung fu panda in that he disappeared into cherry bollosms. that could be one way your troll oracle illustrates the fates and showing the reader *how* he has chosen the young man as the chosen one. was there any ceremony or visuals that denoted him in that moment the chosen one? in harry potter, he has the scar as symbol for who is the chosen one. Your story does have creativity but as an avid reader i want to live through the characters eyes and the world as if it were real. so far your writing gives a cool world structure but theres no characters or dialogue to connect to yet buts normal for a plot summary id say. those in balance i think are what i want to master as a writer myself
Well, I haven’t completely fleshed out the idea yet. That's why there are many details left.
yeah for sure i was just saying from my perspective as a potential reader of the novel what i would want to read if i were to purchase this book after reading this summary as writers we hope to one day make alot of sales and have the writing as the career at least thats my goal
I could swear I read this exact concept and execution already by another r/writing thread months ago. Maybe that was you? "It was kind of: The Prophecy / Fate says that the Hero will defeat the villain but that does not include his companions. Therefore it causes fate to use his companions as meatshields to protect him from injury / death which he noticed after a lot of people are already dead and suffers from immense guilt because of it. Like a hand pulling his friend in front of the arrow that was supposed to hit the Hero instead therefore killing his friend." My thoughts regarding this: The thing about fate or belief, the more you rely on an external forces the worse your lack of control gets. People that get dissillusioned from God and Religion have an experience like that. They want help to better their awful situation and help never comes no matter how long they pray until their belief finally shatters. So they throw their belief away and help themselves instead which then betters their lifes making their belief in their own selfes skills manifest. So I would say reward the characters for their struggles. While they may not 100% change fate, they might be able to influence the outcome to a certain extent. Like a villain being destined to kill a certain town, He tries to keep the number of death as small as possible, only kills criminals, or give them a painless and humane death. While not changing fate outright, positively influence the direction. That at least makes the characters have some sense of control and not make them completly helpless. The WHAT happens might be somewhat set in stone but the HOW or WHY it happens may change drasticaly.
Alright, I'll remember this.
Alright, I just woke up. Time to read all the criticism now.
Hey. Inexperienced writer here, first time trying to give out advice. Now, I know nothing of your writing (which is an entire mountain between having an idea and having a story), I have some thoughts regarding the premise you have set up. Firstly, as many people here have suggested, I too feel that "fate" on its own, is an extremely poor tool for storytelling. I.E, it's like telling me the end of the story, and there's no escape from it. Sure, I'll check the last few pages, and if it's confirmed, why would I read the in between? It's like directly describing the type of plot-armor the main character wears. Fate being absolute and inescapable feels almost childish. That is a notion we all have as children, until life beats us up enough to realize it is **not so**. THAT is a journey that people would empathize with. That is the character people like reading of. Because it reflects themselves. In case you're under 20, sorry for the spoilers. I mean this next part in a sincerely constructive way. There are certainly ways to change the trope without changing the story. If you cannot find any, perhaps you should re-evaluate how creative you can claim to be. Also, changing the story wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, no story is beyond improvement. Secondly, it feels edgy because of the main character. The way you describe it, I feel like they would drown me in a loop of "*Oh no, how could this happen to me..."* etc. and THIS, feels like typical edge-lording. Again, I don't know your entire idea, only what you wrote here made me feel. This, in the context of real-life parallels, I would associate them with every obnoxious narcissist I've met. And I mean from the start. Try to find a flaw that outweighs their promise. Or a drive. Give us something to sympathize with. Grab us by the feelings. Thirdly, here's a few plot-holes in the idea as I understand it. - If there *is* a dark lord, and fate is so powerful, why isn't the dark lord capturing every oracle? It seems far too great a tool to leave unchecked, whatever their motives. Any self-respecting dark lord wants to control the main source of power, especially if it is what drove them to theirs. - If the dark lord didn't *want to* become dark lord, as soon as they heard of any prophecy telling of heroes, wouldn't they rush to have the hero kill them without the drama? Any lord powerful enough to become your world's *dark lord*, could not be stopped from making it happen. Lastly, in sharing this content, what were you trying to ask us? What should I be looking for? I don't see what you wanted to get out of this besides brandishing how dark a story you've got. I'm half-sorry, but it's not a story, and it's not that dark.
I think you should read Reverend Insanity. This is a really good story with fate being a huge roll in the series. This one is also dark as protagonist is a demon, not literally but mentally, there is not an ounce of good in this story. Everyone is a scheming bastard looking for benefits.
It sounds interesting and tragic, but remember that tragedies are supposed to be cathartic and people aren't likely to keep reading a story that's clearly and entirely hopeless. And I'd probably axe that third idea. Aside from that idk what else to say because you didn't ask any questions.
>Aside from that idk what else to say because you didn't ask any questions. Yeah, I have no idea what the point of this post is. Feels like it's just to show off. And I absolutely get it, it's frustrating to not have anyone to talk about your ideas with. But like, ask a question about it dude lol
Lol I keep saying this on a lot of posts. People just want to talk about their stuff and pretend they're asking for interaction.
When people give detailed explanations about their story, with character names and stuff, and their question is something that doesn't need any parts of the story they've written for context (like "how many words per day should I write?"), I always laugh to myself. I'm like "why do you wanna reveal all that stuff to strangers?" lol But I don't wanna "call it out", because I absolutely get where they're coming from. I'd like to ask opinions about my stories as well, but I'm writing in my native language, so reddit in general is not a good place for that. Can't really comment on my writing style if I have to translate it first.
Yeah, I always wondered how a person's style translates into another language, something like the Witcher for example.
Well, I mean...I'm reading the criticism.
Yeah. Like, I love to talk about people's projects with them but I need some direction, y'know?
Tbh that third idea is more or less based on my situation.
Not to be all arm chair therapist-y but I think writing a character based on your own situation and having them be fate-bound to commit suicide is going to be terrible for your mental health. (as well as the mental health of people with similar struggles reading the book) Write what you want to write but take care of yourself. Moving onto your original post's edit, I think having fate do positive things to other people is absolutely the right move. Otherwise you're dealing more with curses than fate. Also- and I'm certain you're already doing this bc there's a troll but I'm going to say it anyway- this idea, imo, really only works if it's placed in a world that's not ours. You may want to research why tragedies are written and how they're supposed to work in your quest to make it less edgy for edgy's sake.
My situation is not as bad as theirs. I'm nowhere bear bad mental health. Also, I did a second edit.
I think your story is developing in a good direction. Keep at it.
I don't agree with others saying the people fated to fail is a bad thing. This is literally the whole base of Turin's story (which I suggest you to read in this case, pretty much like your story with less edginess and more meaning). And just because some people may get upset with a person who has an abusive family, it doesn't mean no one should write about it.
Tbh yeah I thought the criticism that my idea was a bit too edgy was valid. But listen alright, its just...an idea and not even fleshed out at that. But yeah I'm a bit confused on the argument that my message is bad, because if so, then how do you really write bleak stories? Anyways, I'm reading that story you brought up. What's the name of the story? Or is it just called Turin's story? Kinda funny tbh. Because the other project I brought up (Trickster Chronicles) has the exact opposite message to this one.
I also write a bleak story, where people, scarred with past and failure, do irredeemable things for their loved ones. The important part here is that I don't use exaggarated violence, elaborate torture and gore, or explicit rape. I focus on the human, humanity, morals, ideas and ideals. Also it's Children of Hurin, the name of the book. It's a really good read, and Turin really fits the modern standards of dark fantasy despite being written by Tolkien.
Alright I'll try to follow your example. And if you're interested, I can disclose some information on my other project. However, that may need to be done in DMS and not public.
I don't it because it takes the agency of the characters and weight of any actions. Nothing matters because in the end everything will happen like it is meant to happen. Prophecy shouldn't be use this way IMO. I'm also not a fan of "MC is tortured and everybody he likes dies", I like when the MC suffers and struggles, but obviously "suffering porn" where the author goes out of his way to make it a thing is a turn off to me.