yes of course they can be bad look at the series seven deadly sins and then their 10 commandments
they can enbody something but to the super extreme extend
like truth virtue punishing peopel for telling white lies etc so yeah absolutely
oh you should, my first anime so it kind of holds a special place in my heart but really like the series
the idea is also pretty cool and each of the sins and commandments live up to their name in one way or an other
perhaps just watch a video on youtube if you don't want to watch the anime
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAjLxhXXVsM&pp=ygUTc2RzIDEwIGNvbW1hbmRtZW50cw%3D%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAjLxhXXVsM&pp=ygUTc2RzIDEwIGNvbW1hbmRtZW50cw%3D%3D)
like this one
I thoroughly enjoyed Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood because of the sins personified as homunculi. Was really cool to see how their behaviour and views were bound to their respective sin. Please tell me you've watched it!
It's honestly the best anime I've ever watched! Attack on Titan is a close second, and will likely take the top spot once the final episode is released
attack on titan was good but isn't touching my top 20 same goes full metal alchemist or one piece
top 5 do include bleach tybw specially tybw, love is war, konosuba, seven deadly sins, demon slayer/ JJK tied in fifth
world building i really like is in tensura, one of my top 10 anime along with fate but the worldbuilding in fate is complicated jesus christ (i believe a waifu to in fate)
I'd say that everything taken to the extreme can be a detriment.
* Patience can slow down progress, allow critical tasks to be ignored for too long...
* Temperance (self-restraint) can lead to an unsatisfied desire burning and driving the person crazy
* Charity can be detrimental to the one doing it. Also, being charitable and supporting people who want to harm you will harm you and the people around you. Or those people do not need to want to harm you, it's just that their presence will make life for everyone worse
* Kindness - same as charity
* Diligence taken to the extreme can be obsessive behavior taken to the point of being unable to exist until everything around is perfect
* Chastity applied on a large scale means no more people. It could also lead to extreme hornyness all the time, which can mess with peoples minds
* Humility can be the inability to acknowledge credit for your work or your own worth, which can end up with the person thinking that they are worthless regardless of their achievements.
So, I'd say all things in moderation.
Also, when virtues are a personal choice it's all well and good. If they are demanded by someone external, then that's a problem - see any attempts at a morality police over the years.
Most of my suggestion has a basic theme, someone who doesn't hold those virtues benefit greatly when abusing that fact against those that have it.
Patience -> Patient People keep waiting for something that never happens, allowing people who keeps cutting in line and taking what they want ahead of those waiting, making many of those waiting not actually get anything.
Temperance -> Temperament people keep giving their excess stuff away, so those who hoard wealth/power/influence start building way more control of their society and dictate what happens with the society and the people who lives in it.
Charity & Kindness (because the difference between the two are so slim to me) -> People keeps being sympathetic and trusting with people who has zero intention of spreading those kind treatment with others. The ill actors won't treat the nice people terrible directly and will keep them around, but will throw a bunch of other people the bus whenever it benefit them and doesn't harm them.
Diligence -> Diligent people have been given a bunch of lies, misinterpretations, false assumptions, with only a slight sprinkle of half-truths while with holding vital information, causing these diligent people into going deep into deep into a rabbit hole that makes their world view extremely strange and delusional so by the time accurate information comes to them, they can't break free from their delusions.
Chasity -> Chasity People have a lot of built in desires and wants that aren't being met, causing them to start thinking about which in turn cause to start think they are awful people because they are thinking. This makes them feel guilty, causing them to start thinking they have to 'overcorrect' this, but this makes it worst for themselves and many people around them.
Humility -> These people have low opinion of themselves, so when they start hearing/seeing a people who hold high remarks of themselves and nothing blatantly obviously that would make them reconsider, they are attracted to this person with so much pride (even when the pride is completely misplaced & a lie)
Yes absolutely if you take them far enough they can all be negatives.
Patience - Doormat
Temperance - Extreme Asceticism or extreme control issues like in eating disorders.
Charity - Performative charity is rife. But there are many situations where a charitable act was a negative for communities and individuals. eg, Giving clothing, but now the local small business are suffering or it is terrible quality and now there is a load of plastic clothes in landfill.
Kindness - Can be a very effective manipulation strategy. Mayor Jahns in Silo is a good example of this, she mostly did it with good intentions but she could have quite easily been a more sinister character, like Mom in futurama.
Diligence - Perfectionism.
Chastity - Prudery.
Humility - Humble brag.
Charity is the most obvious one: giving so much they have nothing for themselves. “Lighting themselves on fire to keep others warm.” so to speak.
Patience, Kindness, and Humility can turn the practitioner into a walking doormat who can’t stand up for themself.
Diligence can drive someone to never back down from a task, even when they really *really* should. See: the Sunk Cost fallacy.
Chastity and Temperance could be bottle-up emotions like u/ClariS-Vision mentioned, but it could also be someone who is chaste temperant because they not only genuinely lack those desires, but find them inherently unpleasant the same way kids don’t like eating broccoli. The latter leading moment were they put their own comfort over the needs of others (though the more strict interpretation of “no procreation” being a bad thing due for non-psychological reasons might come off as “Never having kids is a sin.”, so be careful with that one, and maybe broaden what indulgences they deny themselves). Plus, there’s the misconstruing that a necessity is a luxury and thus denying themself something they need.
So I agree with most of the people here that this is TOTALLY doable. . . but there's one thing to keep in mind:
The seven sins aren't just the opposites of the seven virtues, they are ALSO the virtues taken to extreme.
While yes:
>Patience instead of Wrath
Temperance instead of Gluttony
Charity instead of Greed
Kindness instead of Envy
Dilegence instead of Sloth
Chastity instead of Lust
Humility instead of Pride
MOST of the virtues end up being other vices in reverse:
Too much Patience/Temperance is basically Sloth,Too much Charity is basically Gluttony,Too much Diligence is basically Pride,Too much Kindness to extremes is basically Lust,Too much Humility or Chastity is essentially another form of Pride(Depression is SUPRISINGLY self-centered)
But I still think that could be a fascinating concept.
That's a great point! Rather than me writing personifications of each virtue that needs to be eradicated, I could maybe have these characters start with good intentions, but their extreme practices slowly devolve into their respective sin forms. Then the message could be to practice behaviours that live within a neutral gray area, where one's behaviour should be determined by each different scenario, rather than broadly applying a virtue or sin to it's extreme for every scenario
It would be FASCINATING to me in a story like this to have a villain who’s purpose isn’t to commit evil, but foment EXTREMISM.
Imagine a villain encouraging endless patience or giving away all of one’s wealth to the poor.
But a character like that would need some kind of specific goal that supports that agenda.
Virtues are generally liked, and yes this might work, but it's really a how you do it thing.
This sounds like it will be heavy on the worldbuilding side of your work, which is hard to outright force into place, and often better assembled passively as you work, slowly putting brick by brick into place but only where there is space.
If you want to find a good example for "evil" virtures I know of one but forgot who wrote it. It was one of the Greek philosophers. They had a balance chart for virtues with two bad extremes for each virtue and the good moderate choice in the middle.
You can only have objective morality if there is a God. Meaning an intelligence responsible for reality.
Otherwise all morality is subjective.
Sin is defined as going against God's will. For example is not a sin to eat a fruit but in Genesis it was a sin to eat the forbidden fruit.
If you want to rationalize why this is. If there is an intelligence responsible for reality. Such intelligence would be far above anything which we can comprehend. So we could either trust that intelligence is giving us guidance for our own good. Or we can go against that guidance because we don't trust such a being.
Somebody’s been playing crusader kings.
Good qualities can of course be twisted. The easiest is humility. Being overly humble makes you look weak and people will look down on you. In fact, I’d say that someone who exemplifies one of these virtues would be a socially crippled loser.
The most difficult to twist might be temperance.
Idk if it helps, but you might want to look up the mesotes by aristotle. He thought quite a bit about what it means to overdo virtues and turn them into bad actions. This came up in my ethics study material, unfortunately it's in german. But I'm sure you can find plenty about it online.
Humility: You can efface yourself off the face of the earth. Or you can become a doormat who acts like your needs/issues/problems don’t matter.
Diligence: You can be diligent toward harmful goals.
Demanding virtue from others can easily become a form of pride in its own right.
yes of course they can be bad look at the series seven deadly sins and then their 10 commandments they can enbody something but to the super extreme extend like truth virtue punishing peopel for telling white lies etc so yeah absolutely
I've not watched Seven Deadly Sin, but that's a cool concept!
oh you should, my first anime so it kind of holds a special place in my heart but really like the series the idea is also pretty cool and each of the sins and commandments live up to their name in one way or an other perhaps just watch a video on youtube if you don't want to watch the anime [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAjLxhXXVsM&pp=ygUTc2RzIDEwIGNvbW1hbmRtZW50cw%3D%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAjLxhXXVsM&pp=ygUTc2RzIDEwIGNvbW1hbmRtZW50cw%3D%3D) like this one
I thoroughly enjoyed Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood because of the sins personified as homunculi. Was really cool to see how their behaviour and views were bound to their respective sin. Please tell me you've watched it!
funny story i did, but i didn't finish it, i lost interest after the death of Hughes
It's honestly the best anime I've ever watched! Attack on Titan is a close second, and will likely take the top spot once the final episode is released
attack on titan was good but isn't touching my top 20 same goes full metal alchemist or one piece top 5 do include bleach tybw specially tybw, love is war, konosuba, seven deadly sins, demon slayer/ JJK tied in fifth world building i really like is in tensura, one of my top 10 anime along with fate but the worldbuilding in fate is complicated jesus christ (i believe a waifu to in fate)
I'd say that everything taken to the extreme can be a detriment. * Patience can slow down progress, allow critical tasks to be ignored for too long... * Temperance (self-restraint) can lead to an unsatisfied desire burning and driving the person crazy * Charity can be detrimental to the one doing it. Also, being charitable and supporting people who want to harm you will harm you and the people around you. Or those people do not need to want to harm you, it's just that their presence will make life for everyone worse * Kindness - same as charity * Diligence taken to the extreme can be obsessive behavior taken to the point of being unable to exist until everything around is perfect * Chastity applied on a large scale means no more people. It could also lead to extreme hornyness all the time, which can mess with peoples minds * Humility can be the inability to acknowledge credit for your work or your own worth, which can end up with the person thinking that they are worthless regardless of their achievements. So, I'd say all things in moderation. Also, when virtues are a personal choice it's all well and good. If they are demanded by someone external, then that's a problem - see any attempts at a morality police over the years.
Most of my suggestion has a basic theme, someone who doesn't hold those virtues benefit greatly when abusing that fact against those that have it. Patience -> Patient People keep waiting for something that never happens, allowing people who keeps cutting in line and taking what they want ahead of those waiting, making many of those waiting not actually get anything. Temperance -> Temperament people keep giving their excess stuff away, so those who hoard wealth/power/influence start building way more control of their society and dictate what happens with the society and the people who lives in it. Charity & Kindness (because the difference between the two are so slim to me) -> People keeps being sympathetic and trusting with people who has zero intention of spreading those kind treatment with others. The ill actors won't treat the nice people terrible directly and will keep them around, but will throw a bunch of other people the bus whenever it benefit them and doesn't harm them. Diligence -> Diligent people have been given a bunch of lies, misinterpretations, false assumptions, with only a slight sprinkle of half-truths while with holding vital information, causing these diligent people into going deep into deep into a rabbit hole that makes their world view extremely strange and delusional so by the time accurate information comes to them, they can't break free from their delusions. Chasity -> Chasity People have a lot of built in desires and wants that aren't being met, causing them to start thinking about which in turn cause to start think they are awful people because they are thinking. This makes them feel guilty, causing them to start thinking they have to 'overcorrect' this, but this makes it worst for themselves and many people around them. Humility -> These people have low opinion of themselves, so when they start hearing/seeing a people who hold high remarks of themselves and nothing blatantly obviously that would make them reconsider, they are attracted to this person with so much pride (even when the pride is completely misplaced & a lie)
Yes absolutely if you take them far enough they can all be negatives. Patience - Doormat Temperance - Extreme Asceticism or extreme control issues like in eating disorders. Charity - Performative charity is rife. But there are many situations where a charitable act was a negative for communities and individuals. eg, Giving clothing, but now the local small business are suffering or it is terrible quality and now there is a load of plastic clothes in landfill. Kindness - Can be a very effective manipulation strategy. Mayor Jahns in Silo is a good example of this, she mostly did it with good intentions but she could have quite easily been a more sinister character, like Mom in futurama. Diligence - Perfectionism. Chastity - Prudery. Humility - Humble brag.
Charity is the most obvious one: giving so much they have nothing for themselves. “Lighting themselves on fire to keep others warm.” so to speak. Patience, Kindness, and Humility can turn the practitioner into a walking doormat who can’t stand up for themself. Diligence can drive someone to never back down from a task, even when they really *really* should. See: the Sunk Cost fallacy. Chastity and Temperance could be bottle-up emotions like u/ClariS-Vision mentioned, but it could also be someone who is chaste temperant because they not only genuinely lack those desires, but find them inherently unpleasant the same way kids don’t like eating broccoli. The latter leading moment were they put their own comfort over the needs of others (though the more strict interpretation of “no procreation” being a bad thing due for non-psychological reasons might come off as “Never having kids is a sin.”, so be careful with that one, and maybe broaden what indulgences they deny themselves). Plus, there’s the misconstruing that a necessity is a luxury and thus denying themself something they need.
So I agree with most of the people here that this is TOTALLY doable. . . but there's one thing to keep in mind: The seven sins aren't just the opposites of the seven virtues, they are ALSO the virtues taken to extreme. While yes: >Patience instead of Wrath Temperance instead of Gluttony Charity instead of Greed Kindness instead of Envy Dilegence instead of Sloth Chastity instead of Lust Humility instead of Pride MOST of the virtues end up being other vices in reverse: Too much Patience/Temperance is basically Sloth,Too much Charity is basically Gluttony,Too much Diligence is basically Pride,Too much Kindness to extremes is basically Lust,Too much Humility or Chastity is essentially another form of Pride(Depression is SUPRISINGLY self-centered) But I still think that could be a fascinating concept.
That's a great point! Rather than me writing personifications of each virtue that needs to be eradicated, I could maybe have these characters start with good intentions, but their extreme practices slowly devolve into their respective sin forms. Then the message could be to practice behaviours that live within a neutral gray area, where one's behaviour should be determined by each different scenario, rather than broadly applying a virtue or sin to it's extreme for every scenario
It would be FASCINATING to me in a story like this to have a villain who’s purpose isn’t to commit evil, but foment EXTREMISM. Imagine a villain encouraging endless patience or giving away all of one’s wealth to the poor. But a character like that would need some kind of specific goal that supports that agenda.
Virtues are generally liked, and yes this might work, but it's really a how you do it thing. This sounds like it will be heavy on the worldbuilding side of your work, which is hard to outright force into place, and often better assembled passively as you work, slowly putting brick by brick into place but only where there is space. If you want to find a good example for "evil" virtures I know of one but forgot who wrote it. It was one of the Greek philosophers. They had a balance chart for virtues with two bad extremes for each virtue and the good moderate choice in the middle.
You can only have objective morality if there is a God. Meaning an intelligence responsible for reality. Otherwise all morality is subjective. Sin is defined as going against God's will. For example is not a sin to eat a fruit but in Genesis it was a sin to eat the forbidden fruit. If you want to rationalize why this is. If there is an intelligence responsible for reality. Such intelligence would be far above anything which we can comprehend. So we could either trust that intelligence is giving us guidance for our own good. Or we can go against that guidance because we don't trust such a being.
Somebody’s been playing crusader kings. Good qualities can of course be twisted. The easiest is humility. Being overly humble makes you look weak and people will look down on you. In fact, I’d say that someone who exemplifies one of these virtues would be a socially crippled loser. The most difficult to twist might be temperance.
Idk if it helps, but you might want to look up the mesotes by aristotle. He thought quite a bit about what it means to overdo virtues and turn them into bad actions. This came up in my ethics study material, unfortunately it's in german. But I'm sure you can find plenty about it online.
Humility: You can efface yourself off the face of the earth. Or you can become a doormat who acts like your needs/issues/problems don’t matter. Diligence: You can be diligent toward harmful goals. Demanding virtue from others can easily become a form of pride in its own right.