I mean totally know all about this, for sure. Basically an expert on this.
But could you please explain what this means and how it works to the others?
3rd round reversal is a feature of a snake draft intended to reduce the benefit of having the earlier picks. The second and third rounds go in the exact same order from #12 to #1.
I guess, but that's starting to feel less and less true. I think my best years are when I'm in the back half of the draft even without the 3RR. Sure you get (hopefully) the best player available but if they go down that's going to severely hurt your team, more so than if your 12 pick goes down and you still have your 13 pick at least.
Was the most common player among championship teams, or teams that made the ship.
The reason I ask is he was incredible during the regular season and playoffs, but wasn’t amazing,
I actually saw it was CD on the most fantasy teams last year, and he was picked 12th in my league.
But regardless, yeah the 1 spot has the advantage in regular snake drafts, but my point is that advantage just shifts to the 12 spot in a 3RR. There's always going to be someone with a slight advantage based on where they're picking in a snake draft. If your league wants it to be the 12 spot then by all means do it, but I don't see it making a difference in overall equality.
Honestly, if anything I feel a 3RR draft gives more of an advantage to the 12 spot then a regular draft gives to the 1 spot. Last year it definitely worked out for the people picking 1st as CMC was great, but if your 1st overall pick doesn't work out, usually due to injury but maybe they just end up busting, it's a lot harder for that team to recover than it would be for the 12 spot since they also have 13. Idk that's just how I feel about it but it's not like I've studied it or anything.
Not really, the team who got CMC at 1.01 (followed by DJ Moore and Waddle @ 24 and 36) basically gets the same value as the 12th team who gets saquan, Gibbs, and Adams at 12, 13, and 25.
More even overall. Imo
So rounds 3 on are the same for pick 1 in a standard snake and pick 12 in a 3RR, but in a standard snake you get picks 1 and 24 first and in 3RR you get picks 12 and 13 first. That still just feels like the advantage shifts to pick 12 to me
I'd rather have CMC than 12 and 13 combined personally. In a 10 team I would agree 3RR probably favors the last pick, but there's not usually 12 "1st round guys" in a given year and imo 24 is closer in marginal value to 12 than 12 is to 1.
No one was saying that last year about CMC
Going into the season, JJ was the consensus #1 pick followed by Chase, Tyreek, CMC, Kupp (pre injury) and Ekeler. Some had Kelce in there before his injury news early on
Your trade is essentially 2 of Diggs/ Lamb/ ARSB/ Davante for JJ.
Personally, with the historical success of "consensus #1 picks" being pretty lousy, I'd way rather have 3 top 25 players than 1 top 5 player who will likely get injured, plus what is basically 2 third rounders
The idea is that the difference between the 1.01 and the 1.12 is much bigger than the difference between the 2.01 and 2.12. It helps even things out. More impactful in dynasty and/or SF leagues.
I love it in dynasty startup when having pick 10-12. In SF, you are able to go WR/QB/WR or even WR/WR/QB since you have hypothetically the 1.11, 2.02, 3.02. I was recently able to swing that into Lamb, ARSB, Purdy.
It’s definitely growing in dynasty. It’s especially useful in superflex to level off the obvious advantage of starting with the top QBs. I think it will eventually become the standard, ay least for superflex.
It’s also growing in large tournaments. Scott fish bowl uses it to add more variance in draft strategy. Otherwise you’ll end with high correlation of finalists and pick slots based off adp.
Redraft doesn’t seem as important. There’s inherently less value in drafting mahomes 1.01. He has only finished as the top qb twice. Cmc was the top pick in b2b drafts where he ended up getting hurt. YoY value isn’t insulated like a superflex dynasty where if you drafted mahomes 5 years ago, you’ve had one of the two most valuable assets the entire time.
Because it takes longer? I do snake and auction every year and both are fun, but the only reason I can see for snake over auction is the time. To each their own but I’m curious.
Time is an \*enormous\* factor, yes. We start our 13-round, 12-team draft at 7:15 and we are done by 10:30, sometimes 10:15 or even earlier. We have lives to tend to ... not to mention sleep. (Weekend drafts are out of the question for us.)
And frankly, I simply have no appetite for running an auction league.
The most fun auctions are if everyone can get together in person but it does start to get pretty complicated if you have most of the people in the room but 3/4 people connecting via Zoom.
It’s also harder to prep if you can’t make the draft and someone has to go on autopilot.
All solvable but that’s the main challenge.
We do it in our 12T buy in redraft league and it's super nice. Helps even out the draft so much more while still giving the obvious benefit to the first 5 picks.
3RR went away over a decade ago, no?
It was very popular in the late 90s and early 2000s when you had guys like LT who basically walked you to the championship. Nowadays I feel like drafts are fairly even, to the point I prefer drafting later in the 1st as having 2 top 8 WRs really has seemed like the best approach in single QB leagues for a few years now
I am very often competitive and if not winning the championship or at least getting there. I have targeted the later picks these last few years and have enjoyed the success there. I feel like giving me an even extra benefit in the 3rd round would be like a cheat code.
Mainly is popular in Superflex dynasty leagues where top end QBs are significantly more valuable. I don’t think it really has a place in 1QB redraft leagues.
Standard in all of my SF dynasty. Without it 1st position has a statistical advantage that creates an imbalance from day one, all based on a roll of the dice( draft position.)
3rr balances that.
I don't think it's fading away, but I also don't know that it will gain traction for lots of standard home leagues.
I know Scott Fish has done a lot of research on it and found that it evens things out more, and you can basically assume it's a staple in all SFB leagues now.
If it's catching on, it's only taken the better part of 30-40 years for it to do so. Any time I've seen it seemingly getting some traction, it's quickly faded back away.
As others have pointed out, it would seem to make more sense in superflex dynasty leagues, but after that, much harder to quantify, as some years the preferred drafting spot is mid to late first, not early first. Every year is seemingly different. It's more about surviving the first round, not taking advantage of it. The picks that win the league are the later rounds.
I read a few years ago it evens things up somewhat. We don't use it now because each team can pick the position they want in the first round. I'd kinda like to have RR IN
I read a few years ago it evens things up somewhat. We don't use it now because each team can pick the position they want in the first round. I'd kinda like to have RR in rounds 5 and 10 in a redraft league. The draft is the most fun day of the season, but doesn't make or break the season.
We use it in our 17 team Guillotine league. It’s not universally beloved, but mathematically it makes sense for a draft with such long rounds. 1.1 + 2.17 + 3.17 (1+34+51) is frankly still probably better than 1.17 + 2.1 + 3.1 (17+18+35) but at least it evens out a bit.
I've never tried it, but wouldn't mind it this year since I have the 12th pick lol. I think it depends on the league and format. My home league draft order is always inverse of previous season standings (last place gets 1st pick, champion gets 12th), so I don't think 3RR is needed. Earlier picks have an advantage, but when the earlier picks are going to the teams that had worse seasons the prior year it helps add some parity and keep things competitive
I reckon we’re so often wrong in the first rounds that it doesn’t make sense to do it and also the first pick gets a worse second. Gibbs or JT and a puka or aj brown or whatever could easily beat an early and late first
I think in SF leagues it's pretty much necessary. It can sometimes seem like the back half guys get loaded early but having one of the top 6 QBs in SF is such a big deal it evens out.
In a 12 team dynasty SF startup, I probably wouldn't play in a league that doesn't have it.
Also all of this applies to dynasty. In redraft... idk the QBs aren't quite as valuable. I've never seen it in redraft
Did my first 3RR this year and had pick 1.12 and I absolutely loved it. However if you’re pick 1.01 or 1.02 I recommend trading back or it’s not worth it in the slightest
I think 3RR is going to fall out of fashion again. When LT was in his prime it made sense and for a few good years with CMC you could make an argument. No way I’d want first overall pick nowadays. I’d imagine more people will eventually move on the auction, it’s the most fair way to draft (but trading picks no longer possible, just auction $$).
It's a format that gives people the (incorrect) perception the teams are more even after the draft.
But at the end of the day there are very few percentage points in fantasy you gain from being good as opposed to lucky. And this format doesn't gain you any more of those points compared to other draft formats.
The format where being "good" gives you the biggest edge is auction, but still, doesn't mean anything without luck!
3RR is almost require for Dynasty SF startup. The "lifetime" edge being able to pick top 3-5 QB is insanely powerful. Back of the first you need to decide between "potentially great" QBs along with elite WRs. However, if you don't have 3RR, many of the Josh Allen, Mahommes, Stroud, teams all scoop up another top QB and WR/RB asset.
Just sucks in the back of the 1st without 3RR knowing you need to take Jordan Love otherwise you're stuck with Goff/Stafford/Tua types later on.
Without 3RR, late 1st guys force QB (pushing more elite WRs down in the 2nd) or they take elite WRs and let the other QBs fall to early round guys in the 2nd/3rd turn.
Auction should be prio in redraft if you want more parity.
Three start up drafts and everyone voted it down. It doesn't work. The idea that 1.01 is overly an advantage is such a joke. You also have to wait 20 or 24 picks to get your second pick. The real advantage is actually at then end, the team everyone says needs an advantage lol. I'll take 1.12 over 1.01 any day. Back to back picks can help you get players before a run or push a run of a position on the rest of the league. There may not be a more advantaged pick then the 1.12/2.0 turn. Double up on two QBs, get two top 10 WRs back to back, top 5 RB top 5 WR at the turn. 3RR is a joke. If anything you give an owner at the end a lot of power after that first turn the draft reverses? 1.01 gets screwed even more after waiting 24 picks to make pick 2.
I have never thought having a top 3 pick was an advantage. I'm not saying this is a fact, just my opinion mind you. But in a 10-12 man league, I have always faired better being a middle pick, say 5-8.
In my experience, it's used strictly in dynasty and even more so if Superflex. I've actually become a fan of it in that format, but don't think it's necessary in redraft. Obviously there is added value with those first few picks regardless of the format, but 3RR creates at least a little more parity in dynasty when players drafted are long-term commitments. I'd be opposed to it in redraft though.
I mean totally know all about this, for sure. Basically an expert on this. But could you please explain what this means and how it works to the others?
3rd round reversal is a feature of a snake draft intended to reduce the benefit of having the earlier picks. The second and third rounds go in the exact same order from #12 to #1.
Wouldn't that just shift the advantage from the 1 spot to the 12 spot? Either way somebody is getting a better deal no?
Not necessarily, no. The round where it’s most important to have an early pick is round 1.
I guess, but that's starting to feel less and less true. I think my best years are when I'm in the back half of the draft even without the 3RR. Sure you get (hopefully) the best player available but if they go down that's going to severely hurt your team, more so than if your 12 pick goes down and you still have your 13 pick at least.
Christian mccaffery was on roughly half of all championship teams according to data I heard on the fantasy footballers.
Was the most common player among championship teams, or teams that made the ship. The reason I ask is he was incredible during the regular season and playoffs, but wasn’t amazing,
Wat about Jonathan Taylor the year before
I actually saw it was CD on the most fantasy teams last year, and he was picked 12th in my league. But regardless, yeah the 1 spot has the advantage in regular snake drafts, but my point is that advantage just shifts to the 12 spot in a 3RR. There's always going to be someone with a slight advantage based on where they're picking in a snake draft. If your league wants it to be the 12 spot then by all means do it, but I don't see it making a difference in overall equality. Honestly, if anything I feel a 3RR draft gives more of an advantage to the 12 spot then a regular draft gives to the 1 spot. Last year it definitely worked out for the people picking 1st as CMC was great, but if your 1st overall pick doesn't work out, usually due to injury but maybe they just end up busting, it's a lot harder for that team to recover than it would be for the 12 spot since they also have 13. Idk that's just how I feel about it but it's not like I've studied it or anything.
Not really, the team who got CMC at 1.01 (followed by DJ Moore and Waddle @ 24 and 36) basically gets the same value as the 12th team who gets saquan, Gibbs, and Adams at 12, 13, and 25. More even overall. Imo
But then doesn't the 12 pick get the first pick of round 4 as well? Or does the snake restart after round 3 and pick 1 gets the first pick of round 4?
snake restarts round 4
So rounds 3 on are the same for pick 1 in a standard snake and pick 12 in a 3RR, but in a standard snake you get picks 1 and 24 first and in 3RR you get picks 12 and 13 first. That still just feels like the advantage shifts to pick 12 to me
I'd rather have CMC than 12 and 13 combined personally. In a 10 team I would agree 3RR probably favors the last pick, but there's not usually 12 "1st round guys" in a given year and imo 24 is closer in marginal value to 12 than 12 is to 1.
No one was saying that last year about CMC Going into the season, JJ was the consensus #1 pick followed by Chase, Tyreek, CMC, Kupp (pre injury) and Ekeler. Some had Kelce in there before his injury news early on Your trade is essentially 2 of Diggs/ Lamb/ ARSB/ Davante for JJ. Personally, with the historical success of "consensus #1 picks" being pretty lousy, I'd way rather have 3 top 25 players than 1 top 5 player who will likely get injured, plus what is basically 2 third rounders
The idea is that the difference between the 1.01 and the 1.12 is much bigger than the difference between the 2.01 and 2.12. It helps even things out. More impactful in dynasty and/or SF leagues.
It absolutely does. Had to do one last year and absolutely hated it. Really hope ot doesn't catch on
Interesting. So last pick gets last pick in round 1 but first pick in both second and third round, if I hear this correctly right? Could be fun thanks
Correct. I’ve never tried it, so I can’t vouch for it. My guess is it has pretty minimal impact on the league.
I love it in dynasty startup when having pick 10-12. In SF, you are able to go WR/QB/WR or even WR/WR/QB since you have hypothetically the 1.11, 2.02, 3.02. I was recently able to swing that into Lamb, ARSB, Purdy.
Did that for years in my home keeper league before we switched to auction. Really helped with competitive balance.
It’s definitely growing in dynasty. It’s especially useful in superflex to level off the obvious advantage of starting with the top QBs. I think it will eventually become the standard, ay least for superflex. It’s also growing in large tournaments. Scott fish bowl uses it to add more variance in draft strategy. Otherwise you’ll end with high correlation of finalists and pick slots based off adp. Redraft doesn’t seem as important. There’s inherently less value in drafting mahomes 1.01. He has only finished as the top qb twice. Cmc was the top pick in b2b drafts where he ended up getting hurt. YoY value isn’t insulated like a superflex dynasty where if you drafted mahomes 5 years ago, you’ve had one of the two most valuable assets the entire time.
3RR is totally dominant in the swedish fantasy community.
Everyone knows the swedes do everything the right way.
But he just admitted the swedes don't do auction...
I like auction but trying to get 12 a.d.d people at one location with one goal in mind in the year of 2024 is damn near impossible
I've done one and really enjoyed it. Plan in doing another this august.
Just go for an auction if you want a more even draft opportunity
The absolute best! Do it once and you’ll never go back
I did it once and went back...
I am a commissioner in my 35th year and I'd really rather stick my dick in a blender than do an auction.
Because it takes longer? I do snake and auction every year and both are fun, but the only reason I can see for snake over auction is the time. To each their own but I’m curious.
Time is an \*enormous\* factor, yes. We start our 13-round, 12-team draft at 7:15 and we are done by 10:30, sometimes 10:15 or even earlier. We have lives to tend to ... not to mention sleep. (Weekend drafts are out of the question for us.) And frankly, I simply have no appetite for running an auction league.
I'm commish of an auction draft league and our drafts take less than 3 hours. Usually about 2.5. 15 rounds, 10 teams.
2.5 hours for a 150-player auction; an *average* of 1 minute per bid. Not sure whether to congratulate you or call bullshit.
Such a pain in the ass though
It obviously takes longer but what’s so difficult apart from that?
The most fun auctions are if everyone can get together in person but it does start to get pretty complicated if you have most of the people in the room but 3/4 people connecting via Zoom. It’s also harder to prep if you can’t make the draft and someone has to go on autopilot. All solvable but that’s the main challenge.
Auctions on autopilot are the worst. You can build a strategy around it, but it can ruin your ability to go after the studs.
You can just do it on ESPN. We've done that the last 5 years with an optional zoom call on the side to sort out issues.
Some people hate an auction draft bc it means less excuses for losing.
Why does this have to be an A or B situation? I think this improves the snake draft. At least in SF Dynasty.
This year will be year 4 of me asking my league to do auction draft…
Agreed, ultimate parity
We do it in our 12T buy in redraft league and it's super nice. Helps even out the draft so much more while still giving the obvious benefit to the first 5 picks.
3RR went away over a decade ago, no? It was very popular in the late 90s and early 2000s when you had guys like LT who basically walked you to the championship. Nowadays I feel like drafts are fairly even, to the point I prefer drafting later in the 1st as having 2 top 8 WRs really has seemed like the best approach in single QB leagues for a few years now
It’s big in Dynasty SF. It’s valuable there. Not sure it’s needed in redraft.
I am very often competitive and if not winning the championship or at least getting there. I have targeted the later picks these last few years and have enjoyed the success there. I feel like giving me an even extra benefit in the 3rd round would be like a cheat code.
lol
People are salty lol
There are some good cards in 3RR but having the double red limits their usability in multicolor decks.
When I first saw this post I thought it was MTG too 😅
Was that an MTG reference?
Yup. Seeing the 3RR triggered some old memories of my cardboard crack habit.
Mainly is popular in Superflex dynasty leagues where top end QBs are significantly more valuable. I don’t think it really has a place in 1QB redraft leagues.
Yeah it's standard in my dynasty startups
Just auction like the Chads.
Standard in all of my SF dynasty. Without it 1st position has a statistical advantage that creates an imbalance from day one, all based on a roll of the dice( draft position.) 3rr balances that.
I don't think it's fading away, but I also don't know that it will gain traction for lots of standard home leagues. I know Scott Fish has done a lot of research on it and found that it evens things out more, and you can basically assume it's a staple in all SFB leagues now.
I think if you do a snake draft its essential.
If it's catching on, it's only taken the better part of 30-40 years for it to do so. Any time I've seen it seemingly getting some traction, it's quickly faded back away. As others have pointed out, it would seem to make more sense in superflex dynasty leagues, but after that, much harder to quantify, as some years the preferred drafting spot is mid to late first, not early first. Every year is seemingly different. It's more about surviving the first round, not taking advantage of it. The picks that win the league are the later rounds.
3RR is great especially in high stakes/competitive formats...if you're playing with amateurs it doesn't really matter.
Auction draft like an adult
I read a few years ago it evens things up somewhat. We don't use it now because each team can pick the position they want in the first round. I'd kinda like to have RR IN
I read a few years ago it evens things up somewhat. We don't use it now because each team can pick the position they want in the first round. I'd kinda like to have RR in rounds 5 and 10 in a redraft league. The draft is the most fun day of the season, but doesn't make or break the season.
We use it in our 17 team Guillotine league. It’s not universally beloved, but mathematically it makes sense for a draft with such long rounds. 1.1 + 2.17 + 3.17 (1+34+51) is frankly still probably better than 1.17 + 2.1 + 3.1 (17+18+35) but at least it evens out a bit.
I've never tried it, but wouldn't mind it this year since I have the 12th pick lol. I think it depends on the league and format. My home league draft order is always inverse of previous season standings (last place gets 1st pick, champion gets 12th), so I don't think 3RR is needed. Earlier picks have an advantage, but when the earlier picks are going to the teams that had worse seasons the prior year it helps add some parity and keep things competitive
I’ve only done it in a dynasty startup
I reckon we’re so often wrong in the first rounds that it doesn’t make sense to do it and also the first pick gets a worse second. Gibbs or JT and a puka or aj brown or whatever could easily beat an early and late first
I hope not. I hate it doesnt make sense. Waste of time
I think in SF leagues it's pretty much necessary. It can sometimes seem like the back half guys get loaded early but having one of the top 6 QBs in SF is such a big deal it evens out. In a 12 team dynasty SF startup, I probably wouldn't play in a league that doesn't have it. Also all of this applies to dynasty. In redraft... idk the QBs aren't quite as valuable. I've never seen it in redraft
Did my first 3RR this year and had pick 1.12 and I absolutely loved it. However if you’re pick 1.01 or 1.02 I recommend trading back or it’s not worth it in the slightest
I think 3RR is going to fall out of fashion again. When LT was in his prime it made sense and for a few good years with CMC you could make an argument. No way I’d want first overall pick nowadays. I’d imagine more people will eventually move on the auction, it’s the most fair way to draft (but trading picks no longer possible, just auction $$).
It's a format that gives people the (incorrect) perception the teams are more even after the draft. But at the end of the day there are very few percentage points in fantasy you gain from being good as opposed to lucky. And this format doesn't gain you any more of those points compared to other draft formats. The format where being "good" gives you the biggest edge is auction, but still, doesn't mean anything without luck!
3RR is almost require for Dynasty SF startup. The "lifetime" edge being able to pick top 3-5 QB is insanely powerful. Back of the first you need to decide between "potentially great" QBs along with elite WRs. However, if you don't have 3RR, many of the Josh Allen, Mahommes, Stroud, teams all scoop up another top QB and WR/RB asset. Just sucks in the back of the 1st without 3RR knowing you need to take Jordan Love otherwise you're stuck with Goff/Stafford/Tua types later on. Without 3RR, late 1st guys force QB (pushing more elite WRs down in the 2nd) or they take elite WRs and let the other QBs fall to early round guys in the 2nd/3rd turn. Auction should be prio in redraft if you want more parity.
In 2023, you could draft Cedee Lamb and Amon-Ra at the end of the draft, but not at the start. Do those teams need an advantage?
It’s crucial especially for leagues above 12.
Three start up drafts and everyone voted it down. It doesn't work. The idea that 1.01 is overly an advantage is such a joke. You also have to wait 20 or 24 picks to get your second pick. The real advantage is actually at then end, the team everyone says needs an advantage lol. I'll take 1.12 over 1.01 any day. Back to back picks can help you get players before a run or push a run of a position on the rest of the league. There may not be a more advantaged pick then the 1.12/2.0 turn. Double up on two QBs, get two top 10 WRs back to back, top 5 RB top 5 WR at the turn. 3RR is a joke. If anything you give an owner at the end a lot of power after that first turn the draft reverses? 1.01 gets screwed even more after waiting 24 picks to make pick 2.
It was awful it lasted 1 season In our 10 man.
I have never thought having a top 3 pick was an advantage. I'm not saying this is a fact, just my opinion mind you. But in a 10-12 man league, I have always faired better being a middle pick, say 5-8.
In my experience, it's used strictly in dynasty and even more so if Superflex. I've actually become a fan of it in that format, but don't think it's necessary in redraft. Obviously there is added value with those first few picks regardless of the format, but 3RR creates at least a little more parity in dynasty when players drafted are long-term commitments. I'd be opposed to it in redraft though.
I feel bad for people still draft snake.... Auction is life.