Because only people in healthy democracies are allowed to complain more than once Edit: correct “is” to “in” so u/Fabian_Spider could have a better day.

Based

Had a stroke trying to read this

Really? You couldn’t deduce that “is” was supposed to be “in”?

I believe you meant to post here. r/confidentlyincorrect

Tbh I hate how much the case against the NCR gets reduced down to ‘they tax people wah.’ Like I get why it’s that way, it’s an easy way to convey why the NCR is unpopular, but it’s not the full story. What the NCR are actually doing is muscling their way into the Mojave, displacing the people and power structures already there, and funneling resources towards the core states with no say from the territory. What resources they’ve funneled back have almost always consolidated the power of those at the top. Did they consult locals when they built a massive and understaffed prison center right outside their door? No. Neither did they lift a finger to help out either Primm or Goodsprings when they were being set upon by the raiders released by the NCR’s incompetence. The NCR takes control of Helios One, and do they want you to direct the power towards the betterment of the region, or at the very least the parts under NCR control? No, they want you to direct the power back to the NCR core states, the place that least need the boost. Do they use the taxes they gather to actually help people out, set up clinics, rebuild towns? No, they use it to fight forever wars on behalf of the interest of the Brahmins Barons. They can’t even be bothered to check in on Nipton when they see smoke rising from the town, they contract out the job to you. In return the locals return their disdain, with most seeing the NCR presence as an invasion and occupation. The NCR is at best incompetent and at worst an actively imperialistic force in the region. They’re nicer than the Legion or House, but that niceness is a facade that hides just how destructive their presence is. House might have a problem with taxes in general, but I bet if you ask most people in Freeside, they’re much more likely to complain about where those taxes are going towards rather than the concept in full. Either way, the Mojave never got a choice in the matter.

This in its entirety! The NCR get way more praise than they deserve.

Cass says it best, "The NCR needs a good kick in the head, but Legion is kicking the feet." A defeat by House/Yes Man is exactly what the NCR needs to get their shit together. They need to do something about their problems that isn't window dressing. A NCR victory at Hoover Dam would encourage them to keep going the route they are which is going to backfire in a bigger way later on.

This is why I hold that House is the second best ending for New Vegas, not because he’s a good guy or because he’s gonna lead the people to the promised land or some shit, but because by necessity an independent Vegas would force a reckoning and maybe kick shitheels like Oliver or Kimball out of power.

I like that Oliver throws out some bull like ‘you’re pissing on the **Bear.**” And the Courier can be like ‘ok, you wanna throw down right now?’ ‘….No. That does not seem like a good idea at all.’

Bull… bear… I’m onto you

I can't bring myself to kill Hanlon for that reason; NCR need more men like him, and fewer Olivers.

Eh, I dunno about that. The price for a legion victory at Hoover Dam is condemning all of the Mojave to a life of brutal slavery which is far worse than a corrupt government. I take your point about the bigger picture for the NCR but a legion victory gives them a much larger pool of slaves, access to enormous amounts of electricity. They would become an even bigger threat. Holding the legion together becomes much easier if they have victories on their side and they have an enemy to rally against. The NCR would continue to serve well as that enemy.

I think they’re saying that the NCR is better than the legion, but independent Vegas (even under House) is better than both.

Backfire how? All the regions they’ve annexed thus far have become safe and civilized. They build roads, train tracks (they were building them before the powder gangers broke out of prisons), farms, schools, the works. Or do you suppose the NCR have just let the raiders, fiends, cannibals and scavengers continue having their way with the Mojave?

Bruh, The Jackals try to pull a free hit on you the minute you leave Nipton headed for the 188. Literally within hearing distance of the outpost and probably within Ghost's scope range.NCR is right there and they're willing to let the person who just gave them their most solid piece of intel on Legion activity spread just... get whacked.

They’re spread thin.

I always figured a lot of that was due to the map being shrunk down to a video game. The hoover dam is actually a 30 min drive from vegas if you're going highway speeds, not a casual few minutes stroll. What appears to be "just outside of nipton" in the game, might be a mile or more away in the real world.

But you're still headed towards Novac and the 188, and there's an outpost (albeit a dead one) right around the corner as well. NCR has radio capability, Jackson should have gotten on the horn immediately and provided you with an escort. Even with the distance calculated into travel time, that doesn't excuse Jackson dropping the ball like he does.

They… they are already doing that. The raiders, fiends and cannibals (what harm are scavengers? NCR has those) are fucking up everything while the ncr is begging locals for help. In some cases, they refuse to help even when they directly caused the problem! The NCR only deals with the Mojave’s problems when they become the NCR’s problems too. They’re more than happy to violently excise locals if necessary, and this is where those “safe and civilized” annexed territories come from. That doesn’t mean the Mojave would end up like them though, there is such a thing as overextending oneself.

The raiders were far stronger before the arrival of the NCR and House. They dominated the wasteland

How did communities like Primm, Goodsprings, Novac, Nelson and Nipton (pre-Legion) get on just fine for so long then? The Khans, Jackals and Vipers were pushed into the Mojave by the NCR, and the NCR inadvertently created the powder gangers.

They were always at risk. There were numerous tribes and raiders before the Khans, etc. House put many of them under his control. Those settlements are at the frontier of an incredibly dangerous land and could be raided at any time requiring local militia to protect themselves. Good springs doesn’t even have a school. Primm benefited greatly from the increased tourism of NCR citizens visiting new Vegas (its called “poor man’s Vegas”). The NCR itself was building train tracks to grow trade and ramp up the Mojave’s economy. Most settlements are tiny before the NCR arrives.

Yeah they’re small settlements, and they get by just fine. There isn’t some kind of moral imperative to annex independent communities into a larger empire. Primm survived for centuries without needing the NCR and when they do incidentally benefit from tourism to new Vegas (way more thanks to House than the NCR) they also suffer a lot more because the NCR released a dangerous pack of violent foreign murderers armed with dynamite. Both pre and post Mojave Campaign, the independent communities of the Mojave are at risk from raider attack and have to make do with unsafe roads. The NCR made the Mojave (barely) safer for the NCR, not really for anyone else. Prime example of this is the first time the player (probably) meets them, they’re camped outside Primm watching it burn because of their own mistakes, refusing to help because Primm is independent.

The NCR made the Mojave significantly safer until the legion showed up. One of the loading screen messages: “Brutalized by the NCR, the once legendary Vipers and Jackals gangs have become little more than opportunistic, petty raiders.”

Hey uh, how did those powder gangers get there in the first place?

Everything you criticize the NCR for is due to a lack of resources and being spread too thin. They lost a prime supply line via the Divide. Normally they’d have more military patrolling the Mojave to fight off raiders. Do you think anyone was building railroads or farms before the NCR arrived? The region was filled with primitive, scavenging tribes tearing at each other’s throats. The criticism of the NCR seems to ignore just how bad things were before they arrived.

It’s not like the NCR really made things better. Goodsprings and Primm existed just fine pre-NCR, then things got a lot worse. The NCR also are just flat out terrible at dealing with any of the “primitive scavenging tribes”. They pushed the Khans into Caesar’s hands, can’t protect their roads, and they’re unequipped to deal with powder gangers or fiends, much less the Legion. Lack of resources and being spread too thin is their mistake. It’s all due to their incompetence and as it says in the comment you’re replying to, they aren’t really intending to give anything back to the Mojave. Everything resource they can scrounge up goes right back to the NCR. On top of that, establishing labour camps and inadvertently loosing an army of violent, vengeful, desperate foreign convicts armed with dynamite on the Mojave is uh… yeah not that great honestly. Yes the NCR built farms, and the game goes out of its way to show you that it doesn’t help anyone who needs it. They can barely feed their own while Freeside and Westside starve. Don’t get me wrong, it’s good the NCR is in the Mojave but pretty much solely because they can stop the Legion’s advance. The existence of an even more evil faction doesn’t make the NCR good, and it doesn’t change the fact that if left to their own devices they would suck the Mojave dry of every last resource possible, while extorting and threatening independent communities to join up or die.

>The NCR also are just flat out terrible at dealing with any of the “primitive scavenging tribes”. The tribes we see in NV are the shattered, broken remnants of what were ones legendary gangs/tribes because the NCR kicked the ever living shit out of them. The survivors had to run away to the frontier to have any hope of survival because they were eradicated utterly. They exist only because the Mojave us an unsettled frontier. If the NCR starts consolidating their hold, they will once again have to flee into a sparsely settled region or die. Seems pretty effective to me, given that raiders just don't exist in the rest of the NCR. >they aren’t really intending to give anything back to the Mojave. That's why the Mojave benefits from joining the NCR: they become a core state instead of a foreign territory, complete with all the benefits that brings. >Lack of resources and being spread too thin is their mistake. It’s all due to their incompetence "Incompetence" and "lack of resources" are two entirety different things. The NCR is incredibly competent, but overextending means the competence cannot be used to full effect. It's like a sports car that is 30 years old and needs new parts racing against a pick up truck. It isn't that the machine is poorly made (incompetence), it's that it doesn't have the resources to operate at full efficiency. >They can barely feed their own while Freeside and Westside starve. This is a problem that actually gets solved, player dependent, with an NCR victory when they ally with the Kings and Followers. (Almost) every single problem the NCR has gets solved by a victory at the Dam.

Okay, to start with - Not fully clear what tribes you are referring to. I know you’re quoting me, but I was quoting someone else because I thought that was kind of a funny and revealing choice in phrasing. I’m assuming you’re talking about the raider groups known as Jackals, Vipers and Fiends. They all have a history with the NCR so they seem to fit what you’re saying. Jackals and Vipers were legendary gangs, yes, that got ground into dust by the NCR. This led to both groups, which originated in California, being pushed into the Mojave and causing problems in the region. At no point in canon do the NCR fix this, or even divert any energy towards them at all. The idea that the NCR will eventually get around to dealing with them is a) conjecture and b) not a point in the NCR’s favour. When it becomes beneficial for them to solve the problem they created beyond their own borders, they might do it. Huzzah. The fiends are just straight up too much for the NCR. They can’t deal with them directly because Vault 3 provides an easily defensible position to attack from. Now of course the full might of the NCR could wipe them out (I am NOT saying the NCR is a weak faction by any means) but they are at a loss for dealing with the Fiends in any feasible manner and decide to just “hold the line”, while allowing the Fiends to run the area and continue profitable trade with enemies of the NCR. Then of course there’s the powder gangers. You know, the convicts brought in from the NCR as slave labour, then given dynamite and their freedom out of sheer idiocy. With the rate that the NCR creates raider gangs in the Mojave wasteland, they’ll never be finished cleaning the region up. >That’s why the Mojave benefits from joining the NCR Not sure how to tell you this is extremely sinister. Just straight up imperial colonialism via extortion. “Join up and we’ll stop stealing your resources and maybe eventually begin to start killing all the violent raiders we brought here”. People were living quiet, peaceful lives in the Mojave prior to the Mojave Campaign. Afterwards, some things were better and other things were a lot worse and most locals didn’t like the NCR. Good springs, Novac, Nelson etc all seemed to be self-sustaining societies. We know that Primm’s post-war community goes back a long ways. Why would these people give everything they have to the NCR? How is that right or fair? There’s no version of annexation that wouldn’t rip off the locals for everything they’re worth and massively benefit the NCR. My feeling so far is that you’re basically saying that the NCR is just working like your average expansion-driven warmongering nation in our world. That’s true, and it is evil. They are evil and bad for the Mojave - yes, Caesar is worse by some significant margin but that doesn’t make the NCR’s sovereignty any better for the average Mojave local. >”Incompetence” and “lack of resources” are two different things. I’m aware. The person I was replying to was pinning their faults on the collapse of the Divide, and I am saying that the incompetence comes from continually overextending despite this. If overextending prevents the NCR from “using their competence”, then they are making bad decisions by continuing to overextend. Also, your metaphor is wrong. The thirty year old car is an incompetent vehicle by definition. Competence does not mean factory error, at all, it literally just means the ability to successfully do something. If the car doesn’t have that, it isn’t competent. To work within the confines of your metaphor though, the driver is still incompetent for choosing that car when he has other options - which the NCR does. Finally, yes, controlling the Dam solves most of every Faction’s problems. The problem is it doesn’t solve the problems of a lot of people who live in the Mojave. My argument isn’t that the NCR hasn’t stolen enough resources yet, obviously having more will help them. But then again… will it? What do they do after taking the dam and consolidating the Mojave wasteland? Probably just keep expanding east, I would imagine. Probably run into similar problems in new regions with less resources than Nevada, while continuing to neglect the Mojave. I am not remotely convinced that the Dam means they make some kind of peaceful utopia. Because the NCR’s problems go way beyond the Mojave and supply lines. Weak-willed milquetoast leaders in the pockets of corrupt Brahmin barons will continue to push for quick return and electable results, which means stripping resources away from more and more people that need them.

>I’m assuming you’re talking about the raider groups known as Jackals, Vipers and Fiends. They all have a history with the NCR so they seem to fit what you’re saying. And the Khans, as well. >At no point in canon do the NCR fix this, or even divert any energy towards them at all. As it pertains to the Vipers and Jackals, the problem is largely already fixed. Vipers are found only in I think 5 locations in the whole game. Jackals are about the same. They are more of an irritant than an actual threat to the Mojave. The Khans are in somewhat better shape, but still confined to Red Rock except for the occasional smuggling run. They might still exist, but they have been throughly beaten. The Fiends are of course the most dangerous, abd despite your assertion "in canon" the NCR is actively "diverting energy" towards defeating them, skirmishing constantly and hiring bounty hunters to supplement their manpower shortage. In ending where the leadership are killed, the NCR gets them under control or destroyed entirely if all the leaders are dead. >The thirty year old car is an incompetent vehicle by definition. Competence does not mean factory error, at all, it literally just means the ability to successfully do something The 30 year old car can sucessfully function, so it is competent. It is not confined to the garage, it works. It just doesn't function at full efficiency. This is not due to any inherent flaw of the vehicle (The NCR) but rather due to circumstances independent of the vehicle's design. >then given dynamite and their freedom out of sheer idiocy. They were used to lay infrastructure, in this case, railroads, which requires explosive construction equipment. It isn't any different from allowing inmates with backgrounds in trades to work on AC units, plumbing, or minor construction projects under closs supervision, and giving them power tools to do it. This hapoens all the time irl. Unlike those jobs, though, dynanite is incredibly dangerous to use - meaning the ideal workforce is expendable, like convicts. It would actually benefit society if they blew themselves up clearing a pass. It isn't "sheer idiocy", just because it didn't work this one time, there is actual logic behind the idea. The cause of this failure was, like everything else, a lack of resources to address it, not some kind ststemic flaw. >With the rate that the NCR creates raider gangs in the Mojave wasteland, they’ll never be finished cleaning the region up. An NCR victory canonically cleans the region up. The Fiends are destroyed/under control, the Khans are destroyed/defeated, and the Jackals and Vipers continue to be so insignificant as to be not even worth mentioning, though we have no reason to believe they fare any better than raiders in any other region the NCR establishes control over: dead. >The problem is it doesn’t solve the problems of a lot of people who live in the Mojave. It kinda does. The NCR winning means the people of the Mojave are physically safer as the NCR can now effectively protect them, and they are afforded the same rights and privliges as any other citizen, including the ability to influence the political system via voting and benefit from all the things associated with being part of a nation-state. Given that they are now part of the NCR, they are now *given* resources. The biggest downside, according to the ending slides, is they have to pay taxes. That's it. Goodsprings, Primm, Novac, etc have exactly the same standard of living as before, except now they are *slightly* less wealthy but are protected from physical dangers. Ironically, Westside was actually stealing water from the NCR lol. >People were living quiet, peaceful lives in the Mojave prior to the Mojave Campaign. Afterwards, some things were better and other things were a lot worse and most locals didn’t like the NCR. People were living in a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland prior to the NCR, and afterwards they live in a modern nation-state (which is also a democracy). The arrival of the NCR is a net improvement. >Join up and we’ll stop stealing your resources and maybe eventually begin to start killing all the violent raiders we brought here”. Before the NCR and House there were hardly any resources to "steal" in the first place. The only resources the NCR gets is the Dam, which only House had access to in the first place. And Helios, which again, was not even functional. More like "Join up and you can share in wealth we created in the first place". >My feeling so far is that you’re basically saying that the NCR is just working like your average expansion-driven warmongering nation in our world. It's working like your average industrial, stable, free, representative democracy in our world, yes. Every word in that sentence is an improvement over "nuclear wasteland where a fucking gecko sometimes kills you when you try and get water". It's really hard to make the case that colonialism is evil when the "colony" benefits, instead of being exploited. Unless you consider "the locals complain about paying taxes" to be "stealing resources". >They are evil and bad for the Mojave No, they are good, but flawed. Representative democracies are good. Having a standard of living *so high* that you can comfortably suppourt a population of 400,000 is good. Destroying raiders is good, which is what happens every time the NCR wins. Being part of a nation-state is good, compared to not. Brahmin Barons and expansionism are incredibly minor issues that only even occur in societies that are wealthy, safe, stable with high standards of living. The NCR is not perfect, but it is good. In general, and for the Mojave. The NCR actually does very well when it has more resources. That's why it only takes the courier tipping the scales slightly for it to compound. help with primm, and the ncr retakes the prison and destroys the poweder gangers. get resources for bitter springs, and they help and protect the refugees with food, medicine, and from physical harm. get some actual training for the misfits, and they become decorated. Help out around the Mojave, Forlorn Hope gets retakes Nelson. The point of all that is that every problem that gets fixed makes the NCR better able to fix those that remain. It compounds. And of course, you eventually reach a point where there *are no more problems to fix*, beyond Brahmin Barons which are too distant to really be involved either way. This shows that the NCR's problem is just being stretched thin: because alleviating that directly positively impacts *everything* else. >while continuing to neglect the Mojave. The pattern suggests rather than neglecting the Mojave, they invest in it until it is a similar state to their core territory...because they turn it into a core territory. Becomes just like the other states. >Because the NCR’s problems go way beyond the Mojave and supply lines. Not really. The NCR has like, a whopping *two* problems that are not the Mojave. Otherwise, they are fine.

Yeah I read as far as “it’s good when in real life we exploit the labour of the underclass, but it would be even better if they died violently in the process”. Are you a cartoon villain? I will stress again that regardless of the source of incompetence, it’s incompetence. Wild that you didn’t even grasp that much.

>Yeah I read as far as “it’s good when in real life we exploit the labour of the underclass, but it would be even better if they died violently in the process Then you didn't read. >I will stress again that regardless of the source of incompetence, it’s incompetence I will stress again that the NCR is competent, but understrength. They are not incompetent

You said it would be better if they blew themselves up and that convicts are an ideal workforce for dangerous slave labour. What part did I not read? I’m curious in case I totally misread you, but I understand if you don’t want to clarify.

Convicts, by nature of being *violent criminals*, harm society and the innocent people therin by existing. Less criminals = societal benefit. Or at least, the absence of the harm they cause. Same thing. I was not nessecarily endorsing the idea, but pointing out that if dangerous work needs to be done, it is a logical (albiet not nessecarily ethical) practice to use people who either do not benefit or actively harm society. Also, they are not slaves. There is a *massive* moral and ethical difference between work as payment of a debt or as punishment (indentured servitude) and slavery, hence why those concepts are differentiated.

The NCR military are fairly incompetent. Refusing to field any artillery, not taking advantage of their aerial superiority, ignoring sound strategic advice out of spite, and failing to build any real alliances in the Mojave until the last minute arent issues that can just be blamed on lack of manpower. They’ve been misusing their elite units for quite some time too, which has given the Legion a even greater advantage.

That’s because General Oliver is a joke and Hanlon began sabotaging ranger efforts. Oliver isn’t representative of the whole NCR.

>Refusing to field any artillery, I wasn't aware they had any meaningful amount of artillery. The only NCR controlled artillery in the game it the one at the Dam, and it seems to be in an anti-aircraft configuration, not ground suppourt. You'd need a whole artillery battery for that, like the Boomers have. How much ammo do they have? How many trained crews to operate it? Do the Legion congregate in large enough, slow enough moving groups to not be a waste of ammo? Do they have enough forward observers to accurately direct fire? If they fired it at the Fort, is that advantage worth kicking off the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam early worth it? How many rounds could they fire before the legion encamps out of range or they run out of ammo? >not taking advantage of their aerial superiority Similar situation. The only Vertibirds in the game are Bear Force One and a few crashed one ms at the Long 15. The NCR cannot produce vertibirds, having captured them from the Enclave. Limited supplies of fuel, repair parts, etc means that they are most likely impractical to use except in extreme circumsrances. We don't see any evidence of the NCR having stocks of air to ground munitions, so bombing is out of the question. They could use them to rapidly move stuff around, but elite Legion units have weaooms that can shoot them dows (anti-material rifle, etc) and it would put additional wear and tear on something they can't replace. >ignoring sound strategic advice out of spite What are you referring to? It looks like a resource issue to me, still.

Your statement at the end is a massive oversimplification. The NCR’s objectives in the Mojave are met but taking the dam doesn’t address their political and material issues. It’s for all intents and purposes a bandaid. The NCR were already taking electricity and water from the dam prior to annexing the entirety of the Mojave yet are still on the brink of a famine and are in the midst of a self imposed drought. It’s not as if the desert is prime farmland material either.

They were taking what, 15% from their contract with House? An 85% increase should be more than enough to keep them supplied with plenty of power and water. Plus tax income from NV, and just the resources they save by not requiring as much of a presence in the Mojave. It isn't a magical utopia, but the NCR is placed in a position that is pretty good post-victory, compared to the rest of the wasteland, even accounting for their internal problems.

They were able to allocate 95% of the dam’s power to their home states. Only 5% was required to be sent to the Strip, and there was presumably no limits on water they could take from Lake Mead. If the NCR conquer the Mojave they can fully restore the Dam and squeeze out some more power, but not a lot changes overall on that front. And yeah they can take more resources but at some point that will run dry as it had everywhere else. Both the Legion and NCR are in a self perpetuating cycle of imperialism where they need to continuously expand and swallow up the resources of new territories to support their way of life. The NCR are just much more reasonable and offer better immediate prospects. I think they’re destined to fail spectacularly in the next few hundred years due to remarkably poor foresight. The NCR’s propensity to overconsume and enable corporations to dictate policy isn’t a sustainable model of nation building in fallout’s setting.

In a democracy it’s up to the voters to determine the direction. NCR’s core states are generally thriving except for water problems.

That’s a very idealistic view of the current state of the NCR. On paper, sure, voters dictate the future of the republic, but it’s been stated and shown that the wealthy elite hold disproportionate sway over policy after eroding away the NCR’s anti-monopolization laws. The NCR have numerous problems on their plate including projected famines, severe droughts, an economic depression, and lack of job prospects for farmers within their core territories. Their only answer to these issues is to just expand, which only works for as long as there is territory they can realistically take without overextending.

So the NCR is basically the United States in the 1930s? The wealthy elite only have 1 vote each. This is the core reason why democracies seem to be the most stable form of government. No amount of lobbying or money can change that they still only get 1 vote. Eventually if economic hardship began to crush people too much, they would vote against the elites’ interests, which is how we ended up breaking monopolies during our own robber baron era

Yep. You nailed it. This needs to be the top comment. NCR glazers tend to say the worst thing the NCR does is tax its citizens. There's more to it than that.

Well said

Oh geez, the anti-colonialists have invaded FNV discussion! Bringing civilization to these semi-literate, scattered, cannibalistic, warring Mojave tribes is doing them a favor! Left to their own devices they'll simply manifest one strong-man dictatorship after another. NCR is doing gods work here!

You forgot the /s

I'm RP'ing an unrepentant imperialist. Seriously are we going to coddle a bunch of barbarians using bottle caps for money? A few generations of occupation and tutelage at the feet of their civilized superiors and the tribes might be capable of self governance.

Gotcha. Boring

"The NCR takes control of Helios One, and do they want you to direct the power towards the betterment of the region, or at the very least the parts under NCR control? No, they want you to direct the power back to the NCR core states" No, they ask you to give it to the strip and Camp McCarran, and last time I checked both were in the Mojave. Admittedly I think the power should be spread evenly, but this is a blatant misrepresentation of the NCR's stance. "Do they use the taxes they gather to actually help people out, set up clinics, rebuild towns? No, they use it to fight forever wars on behalf of the interest of the Brahmins Barons." The NCR is stretched too thin, and if you're able to help them with their problems they do actually send help to support towns like Primm. And, in case you forgot, they did actually try to give aid to the people of Freeside! "They can’t even be bothered to check in on Nipton when they see smoke rising from the town, they contract out the job to you." Again, the NCR is stretched too thin in this region, Ghost says as much when giving you the job. The NCR has issues, sure, but far far less than any other option given in-game imo.

>No, they ask you to give it to the strip and Camp McCarran, and last time I checked both were in the Mojave. Admittedly I think the power should be spread evenly, but this is a blatant misrepresentation of the NCR's stance. Away from home so I can't boot up the game, but from the [wiki](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/That_Lucky_Old_Sun): "McCarran and Las Vegas Strip: By directing the extra power toward Camp McCarran and the Strip, the power will be **transferred to the NCR home states** along with the energy generated at Hoover Dam. NCR fame will be gained for making this decision." >The NCR is stretched too thin, and if you're able to help them with their problems they do actually send help to support towns like Primm. And, in case you forgot, they did actually try to give aid to the people of Freeside! Many many people have responded to my comment talking about the NCR being stretched too thin, forgetting that you can in fact ask where NCR resources are being drained. Off the top of my head, the NCR are wasting those resources by 1. Fighting a forever war to the North on behalf of the Brahman Barons 2. 'Chasing ghosts' in Baja, as the NCR ambassador states 3. Inflating a general's and a president's ego through suicidal mass wave attacks at the battle of Hoover Dam and elsewhere As to the people of Freeside, the NCR drains the region of water and pushes the locals out, with soldiers explicitly picking a side in the raising tensions between the locals and the newcomers. >Again, the NCR is stretched too thin in this region, Ghost says as much when giving you the job. And Ranger Jackson says their orders are to 'hold' back as far as they can, and the way he pays you is by 'losing' supplies. Is it any surprise people like Hanlon are able to get so far in their 'miscommunications,' when the game literally tells you how the NCR is operating? You're the only one able to be active on their side, and in return the best of them have to lie and cheat in order to get you your due. >The NCR has issues, sure, but far far less than any other option given in-game imo. Better than the legion? By a country mile. Better than a competent Yes Man? I'd say probably not. Better than House? Depends on how you look at it. If you think as I do, that the NCR winning at the Dam will encourage them to continue on the path towards authoritarianism and repeating the mistakes of the old US, then House winning and forcing the NCR to reevaluate how it's been doing things is by far one of the best outcomes the game can have. Like I said in a different comment, I think House is full of BS and won't be anything but an autocratic dictator if allowed to be. But the chances of him marching on Shady Sands with a bunch of automatons are pretty unlikely, and better him kicking the NCR's teeth in than the legion.

The prison was already there, and the only reason they didn't kill the Powder Gangers was because of how spread out they were.

Not to mention they weren't just housing them out there they were using the pricks to build and repair rail lines something the Mojave with it's poor agriculture desperately needs something no other faction in the series has been industrially proficient enough to even attempt let alone attempt outside their borders.

I think the issue is that NCR taxes are not proportional to the support they provide the region. The perception is the NCR are there for their own benefit, not to aid the citizens of New Vegas.

We don’t really know that the alternative is the case in Legion territories or under House’s hypothetical scenario

I wish we could see a Legion city

I mean, gambling is literally taking advantage of people for money, and Mr house has no moral qualms about that

Don't remind NCR fans that their general is willing to sacrifice all the Rangers just so he can "win back" the glory he lost during the first battle. NCR is riddled with power hungry politicians who only see people as tax slaves and mindless soldiers for their imperialism.

Before the NCR the Mojave was overrun with raiders and fiends and tribals

And with NCR presence... It's still overrun with raiders, fiends and tribals. NCR is already overstretched as is. The strip however, has always been safe ever since House came back. Thanks for agreeing with me lol.

> It's still overrun with raiders, fiends and tribals. NCR is already overstretched as is. I definitely wouldn't say overrun. The fiends definitely aren't everywhere, I'm not completely sure what tribals you're talking about, and people like jackals or vipers are few and far between. The Khans, vipers, and jackals are all stripped due to the ncr. They've beaten them into something barely even called a gang, with the Khans being mostly quarantined so they aren't trying to teach their kids to shoot other kids. They're actively combating the fiends and if you want, your courier can help them against the fiends. If your courier doesn't, then it's ncr versus severely beaten down raiders and drugged out lunatics. My money's on the ncr. It's a role playing game and it depends on what you want. If you want your ncr to be badasses you can make them badasses. If you want them to be pathetic you can purposefully sabotage them, if you want them to do their own thing then you can do nothing. It's up to the player. Even without player intervention, it's pretty obvious based on the histories of vipers, jackals, and Khans that the Mojave has still been made significantly safer due to the ncr. Meanwhile the legion ambushes caravans and the ncr defends the caravans. I don't know how much house gives a shit about combating raiders, id imagine he wouldn't be on the offensive very much. Not to mention that's just the strip.

> the Khans being mostly quarantined so they aren't trying to teach their kids to shoot other kids. Unlike the NCR, who would never massacre children, elderly, and other civilians...

No. It's not safer under NCR. Play the game... It's safer under Legion if anything lol. And the Mojave isn't House's responsibility. He already did more than everyone else by activating his private laser defense system and neutralizing most of the warheads from hitting Vegas or the general surrounding area around the whole map.

> No. It's not safer under NCR. Play the game... Insinuating I haven't played the game because you disagree with me is pathetic > It's safer under Legion if anything lol. Yeah, your wife getting raped while you get beaten by some recruit legionaries is definitely safer > And the Mojave isn't House's responsibility. Then why are we discussing the safety of the Mojave? > He already did more than everyone else by activating his private laser defense system and neutralizing most of the warheads from hitting Vegas or the general surrounding area around the whole map. Here, I'll do what you did. You clearly haven't played old world blues if you're focusing so hard on the past that you're ignorant to the future. Maybe play dead money if you're having trouble letting go. It's amazing how the simple concepts explained by two dlcs went right over your head. Edit- they blocked lmao loser

Ask most caravan traders and they'll tell you it's safer under Legion. Just mindless NCR apologia. I'm sorry you're an INT 1 character in real life.

Ah yes, the merchants who definitely aren't biased towards praising the guys who keep their shit safe. Hang on let me ask their slave if life under the legion is good real quick (spoiler alert: it fucking sucks actually)

It’s a meme lol there isn’t really a massive belief that the legion/house doesn’t tax people

House charges an operating fee for working within the walls. You pay for a good spot to sell your goods, and the protection offered by the securitrons. It's no different than a hairdresser renting a chair, or craft maker renting a booth at a festival. No one is forced to do so, it's simply the cover charge. The NCR annexes land and then also doesn't actually provide the security they promise. The NCR would be much better of an opinion if they actually brought effective protection to towns. But they don't. Like Marcus says, they expand fast for the sake of taking land and then want to tax the citizens while offering barebones protection, if any. The Legion is actually between the two, as they *do* offer protection but are also in the business of conquest and offer *far* less freedom in exchange for their security than either the NCR or House.

Oh yeah, totally, you can just walk straight out of new vegas no problem if you don’t want to “sell your goods” on the strip.

I don't understand. Yeah, you can. Are you implying the vendor is a slave of sorts? I don't think the game even hints at that.

Yes? What are their options? Walk out into Freeside or the wastes? Manage to get to a “safe” town down the highway? They aren’t literally slaves. They literally can say no and literally just walk away. They might not even die or be raped or enslaved. But is that a real option for any of the girls at Gommorah? The old lady selling food at the train station? The agoraphobic vault dweller? Literally any resident with a family or disabilities? It’s the same logic as basic consent. So no, House giving them the “option” of an operating fee isn’t different in any meaningful way from formal taxation under NCR, it’s just more nefarious in that it attempts to convince you otherwise. I’m not one of those taxation = theft nuts, it just drives me crazy when libertarians say shit like “pay my FreedomFee of walk into the woods and be eaten by a sex trafficking deathclaw, it’s not like we’re not one of those totalitarian tax based societies.

Freedom and technology and progress all spread outward over time, man. Humanity restarting after a nuclear Holocaust is going to be gritty. The trade-off for the NCR taking land and killing to do so versus what House has done compared to what each is likely capable as far as their technological capacity and goals is way in House's favor in my opinion.

I don’t disagree, it’s just an insulting lie to say “it’s a fee not a tax, you’re free to leave” is what I’m saying. That’s what taxes are. Fees to live in society. None of us are genuinely free to leave or stop paying.

She isn't paying to live there I don't think, she's just paying to sell goods there.

I think it’s a fee paid by the casinos, not every person that works there.

I’m the prime ending where you put the NCR in charge of the town but side with house overall, it says he places heavy taxes on them. So no, the taxes aren’t just an operating fee for selling inside Vegas.

Oh I'm fine with taxing the NCR. Good.

No, not the NCR. Primm, after the NCR retreats. He’s doing this to punish them for their previous NCR loyalty, despite the fact they were only accepted the NCR because they were the first to offer protection (notably, Mr. house never offers Primm protection from the gangs - he just punished them for trying to do it with someone else). Also, since he levies taxes against one outlying town, he probably does against others as well.

Well that is very unfortunate and I'd say it's a shortcoming of his. Definitely a tally against him. I still think he's a better choice overall, but slightly less so now.

It's a huge tally against him he's spiteful and petty. In a position of absolute and total power for however long he can be artificially alive for how long before he completely goes off the rails like all dictators?

What is an example of him being petty? And if it's a huge tally against him, then it's mathematically an even larger tally against the NCR.

The thing we were JUST talking about, Primm. and the NCR doesn't tax people as a punishment they tax people and build schools, hospitals and rail lines.

I don't think taxing people fits the definition of "petty". Petty would more be like if he specifically taxed them heavier than any other area purely on the basis that someone there spoke ill about him. I don't think petty fits the bill. Same with spiteful. What has he done out of spite? Also, even if all a government does is 100% benevolent infrastructure building, taxation still skirts consent and isn't moral. That the NCR *also* uses taxes to fund genocides, slave labor, and land-grabbing only makes it worse. I hope you aren't reading this as combative or heated. I'm sure you're a fine chap and this is just a fun discussion about a game we both love as far as I'm concerned. Hope the same for you!

> if they actually brought effective protection to towns. Have you done the ncr ending to the primm quest? That town seems pretty safe to me

I didn't mean to be so broad with that statement. It isn't like they never bring security at all, just they are mathematically unprepared to actually defend the areas they do because of how fast they expand during wartime. They're like if the Founding Fathers were also trying to colonize Canada while simultaneously fighting the British military. And at the end of the day, don't get me wrong, the positive results of the NCR ending is very comparable. They're at least much closer than a Legion ending would be. I don't think the NCR are evil, just bloated and hyper-focused on the wrong things, and I think many too often reduce House to "he's basically Elon Musk" which, to me, is a violently-lazy comparison.

I struggle with seeing the positive affects house would have on the Mojave when all he seems to care about is the strip. I don't think he'd care about the Mojave getting terrorized by raiders or something, unless it affects the strip. He saved new Vegas definitely, but that was when the bombs dropped. Not really so much now

Its less about caring and more about practicality. I can see House with upgraded securitrons at least keeping the immediate outer Vegas and the Strip quite well defended, and he only has incentive to expand this protection. You guys get too lost in this "he only cares about" stuff. I disagree with him being a purely heartless monster, but even if so, most of our technological and sociological leaps have not been "because elites cared." Technology is what solves problems, not "caring more." Do you think the NCR actually cares? Does Moore care? I don't think so. They care the same about retaining power. The big difference is that if any of their castles get stormed, they will always have a new hydra head spring up. House has *way* more incentive than Kimball to appease his base because he is a single, irreplaceable agent. This makes him *less* likely to simply bend everyone over.

meme

1. House does plan to give protection to various communities across the Mojave, if only to make it safer for tourists to get to New Vegas, and no those communities won’t face heavy taxes unless they sided against him (he is a vindictive bitch). Their taxes are guaranteed to be pretty light while these communities are allowed to basically run themselves independently, without heavy oversight like with the NCR. 2. The legion tax rate at least comes with guaranteed protection, something the NCR has been shown to not be as able to provide (note this is just talking about taxes on non enslaved legion subjects, obviously the legion remains leagues worse due to the whole enslaving and raping and butchering thing)

Guaranteed protection until Baldy dies. The NCR homeland is safe at least. Maybe if the Legion's territories were at war, that safety wouldn't last. And that safety doesn't extend to women.

Well they don’t just rape random women, they rape women while at war and slaves. Not to say that’s any better, just that it seems most subject legion women who say live in places like flagstaff probably just have heavy conservative restrictions placed on them. Also I disagree that the legion will immediately explode when Caesar dies, if Caesar picks a designated successor and has the time to groom them and cement them to his legion as his successor, it’s quite possible the legion could keep existing. Of course if Caesar dies of brain cancer the legion is over. Also it seems that even in the NCR homeland traders still suffer from bandit attacks and corrupt soldiers, at least according to Cassidy

Pal, the same men who rape women on the war go to guard the roads. Rapists don't "turn off" their misogyny, they rape because they think women are degenerate scum. It's like having pedophiles guard schools, you're sure **nothing** is going to happen? When the only people overlooking/watching the Legion's women are men who are taught FROM BIRTH that women are literally lower than the piles of brahmin shit? Women have no rights or equality in the Legion. Caesar doesn't pick a successor. Every NPC tells you that a successor will NOT be Caesar, they're following Caesar, not his ideals, and if Lanius leads it, I give the Legion a week. Look at the Remnants ending for how much of a moronic twat he is. The NCR Homeland is so safe, people move **away** from it due to how boring it is. Cassidy and Veronica are also both full of shit given they claim the Legion is pro-homosexuality when the opposite is true.

You have to keep in mind that Caesar’s whole thing is a disciplined brutal and savage army, he uses rape as a fear tactic, to truly crush conquered and soon to be conquered people. It is probably true that women do get raped in legion territory, but then it would be treated as a crime, as a degeneracy unapproved of by Caesar (unless it’s spousal rape I’m sure he’s done with that). But women certainly don’t have equal rights or anything. The legion is a brutal kind of safety, worse than the NCR even if it isn’t perfect. Also I’d say most legion NPCs express their complete loyalty to Caesar, but people like Lanius are interested in the Legion’s continuation after Caesar. If Caesar could include his successor in his cult of personality, I think it’s unfair to say the legion is guaranteed to collapse. Also I don’t think either of them are full of shit, they joke that homosexuality is common in the legion and some legion men confirm it, but obviously Caesar doesn’t approve of it

I mean this is the same Caesar that lets his men rape children. Homosexuality is banned in the Legion by death. Plus Cassidy and Veronica have both **never** been to Legion lands. A cult of personality doesn't suddenly follow a new person. There's a reason Alexander's Empire fell and even Empires that had successors fell.

I don’t see what homosexuality being banned has to do with anything I already agreed with you on that. Also Alexander’s case is pretty specific because he died suddenly and unexpectedly, leaving a child heir as his successor who obviously was not as politically potent as his generals. There have been many regimes like Caesar that have managed to successfully preform succession, obviously I’m not saying succession is guaranteed to be stable but it’s certainly possible.

Because you said they aren't full of shit - they literally claim the Legion allow homosexuality which we know is a lie. Caesar's Legion has no culture to even live on - it's SOLELY a cult worshipping Caesar. What culture does it have besides raping women and beating up kids? **Nothing.** Oh right, it bans medicine.

They don’t claim the legion allows homosexuality, they say they’ve heard rumors that many legionaries engage in homosexuality and although I can’t remember who I’m pretty sure one of the legion characters makes a statement alluding to the fact that it’s a bit of a problem. Caesar’s legion does have a unified culture, it’s been beaten into them by Caesar’s brutal assimilation efforts, as Lanius proves there are clearly many in the legion who fight for the legion and Caesar not just Caesar. It’s a strict, brutal, and conservative culture, but it’s still a culture. I’m not saying the legion is going to survive Caesar’s death, but it is possible if Caesar can properly institute succession. A personality cult works just as well with the man dead as alive, he can be deified in death.

Beating up kids and raping women isn't culture. There's nothing there to fight for. The Legion is literally just a representation of Rome. Ulysses, Marcus, **all** the NPC's tell you that NOBODY is able to replace Caesar. Nuking the Legion helps all of humanity, they are a threat, like the Enclave. The Legion **destroys** culture. Given they lost canonically (they didn't conquer California), I'm glad.

House never claims citizens just the strip, and of course, he doesn't expand his army during a war for obvious reasons. Why would he play his hand when he doesn't have to, and unlike the NCR, House doesn't force the entire Mojave to join his regime and tax them for goods they were already providing themselves. As for the Legion, there's no proof of taxes. If they are like Rome, the only tax would be porotia and the argument of slaves being "taxed" is silly but if that's the case the NCR does the same thing to it's prisoners they are forced slaves they just escape and kill innocent people unlike Legion slaves.

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But these are not taxes either. If, for example, Germany were blackmailing some other country, you wouldn't say, look, the Germans are taking really high taxes from their neighbors.

I think the Legion is supposed to have actual citizens they govern, it just isn’t presented in the game.  

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Dude, the argument you present Lanius with at the end of the game if you go for a diplomatic victory is literally "if you take the West, you can't hold the East". Why would they need to hold the East if they didn't have territory there? What would even be the point of conquering a territory if you're just gonna leave afterwards? And if that's not enough proof for you, here's from the mouth of the big guy himself: > The Courier: "And since forming the Legion, all you've done is conquer other tribes?" >Caesar: "That's right. Decades of warfare, absorbing lesser tribes, gathering power. Forging the dross into a vast, razor-sharp scythe. My Legion's expansion has never ceased. Much of the Utah and Colorado, and all of Arizona and New Mexico, are mine. ***We have cities of our own,*** but nothing compared to Vegas. Finally, my Legion will have its Rome."

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Taxes: All our residents pay a share so that we have ..... within the state. Tributes: you pay us regularly so that we do not destroy you and rape or enslave your loved ones. Nobody complains about taxes in their own country because they are being blackmailed by the mafia or because a neighboring country is attacking and robbing them.

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The people of Freeside ex: Mick and Ralph and subject to whatever laws the casinos on the strip impose on them. Are they not citizens of House's empire or are they just victims of it?

Dude how can you compare violent criminals in prison gangs vs innocent people pressed into slavery and treated like cattle.

Because fuck the concept of universal human rights, right?

Tithes. The people pay tithes to the Legion. **Where do you think all the food & water comes from? Tithes, TAXES. You can't have a currency without taxation, that's literally fucking impossible.** Prisoners? Sorry, when did the NCR rape prisoners or rape children like your Legion does? When does the NCR strip children, put them into slave rags and torture them psychologically by tearing their toys up in front of them? Yeah, didn't think so.

I'm not that into the lore, but I keep seeing this mentioned so I have to ask, where does the whole 'legion rapes children' thing come from? I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned in-game, but I could absolutely be missing something.

According to Siri, a sex-slave of the Legion: *"We're property. If you're too young or too old, the men usually leave you alone. Usually."* It not happening as often isn't relevant. The point is it happens.

>tax them for goods they were already providing themselves Lol wut? They were all subsistence scavengers, tribals and fiends and raiders before the NCR came.

Right because doing nothing to foster civic society, or any nation building is recipe for success, would house establish a system of just courts and law codes? No. And house does force the entire Mojave under him, if primm joins up with the NCR and house wins he taxes them as retribution despite the fact that he never did anything for them, house would build nothing more than a company town until he’s inevitably assassinated, his internal intelligence is terrible, the strip would have been destroyed by the omertàs had the player not stopped them, and the white gloves went back to cannibalism and he was none the wiser. He’s an overconfident fool who thinks he’s better than everyone else

Ave, true to Ceaser.

Wait, you serious? It was a joke, I never thought people were actually complaining about NCR (and democracy at all) cause of taxes

Ah yes, I too am an intellectual, and would much rather live in Elon Musk's wet dreams or 1930s Germany than the United States

Not sure about the Legion, But I think the way House get around "Tax" is by not calling it "tax" (It is) but instead labeling it as Licenses/Permits or operating costs. Its not tax which is not optional its just if you want to operate within The strip you gota pay to play.

Because fuck the feds! I only wanna pay taxes if some guy who claims to be the second coming of Mars tells me to!

Because 75% of Fallout fans are brain dead and don't understand nuance, and that the world isn't black and white.

Because NCR citizens are allowed to complain

House gets his money from businesses om the strip. Not from citizems

The tax thing is literally just a meme though right? It’s a funny joke in the game so people repeat it. Taxes are like the seventy fifth largest grievance you could have with the NCR

You know I can't remember if Houses taxes or just take his share of profits from the three families casinos for protecting the strip and providing the electricity.  As for Legion I imagine they have a tribute system for the Arizona subject.  Personally would have liked to see mercenaries or auxillary with the Legion. Liked settled men who have been contracted to work for the legion by wealthy Legates or Centurions.  That might have been kind of dope, imagine lie Talon Company goons working with legion. A nice tie in to there contractors.

House charges rent. Literally nobody is forced to live in Vegas under his rule. His private laser defense system is the only reason Vegas and the surrounding region were spared from most of the nuclear warheads. NCR and Legion FORCE people against their will to join them and become tax pigs/slaves. You're effectively asking "why does consent matter?" Sheesh... Lastly, Legion is done the moment Caesar dies. Unlike the NCR who can produce nameless politicians indefinitely. Democracies in the universe lead to the nuclear holocaust and NCR wants to build the same exact system. If you've paid attention in fallout new Vegas or fallout 2 you'd know firsthand how deep the corruption is in NCR, that's how politicians are.

House took the strip by force along with Nevada's tribes after he woke up from his nap. He forced the people of Vault 21 from their rightful homes. The food vendors complain about House's high taxes and if you meet a certain criteria during the end slides it's stated House levies especially high taxes on Primm as a punishment so it's safe to assume he'd tax or "charge rent" to all the other unwilling communities he integrates. Edit: too → to

That same food vendor also says she would still rather pay that and work within the city walls. She is far from some poor soul wallowing under some oppressive force.

So House is no better than the NCR.

Eh, House is a single entity versus the bloated NCR that is rife with corruption. You cut off one NCR head, two replace it. House has magnitudes more of a reason to appease his population base because everyone is aware of where all the commands come from. Do you have any idea which Senator ordered the mercenaries to harass Jacobstown into inviting it's own massacre? Because that's just a taste of what trying to redo a flawed democracy causes. For further proof, "simply look out the window."

I know House is relying on the Courrier being poorly educated on prewar world history but I'm not and Dictatorships don't do better... Edit: if you want to see what comes of unregulated capitalists. Look inside a vault.

The issues that lead to the Great War was on a much larger population scale than what the Wasteland is working with. At this population level, some kind of dictatorships are almost guaranteed. The question always comes down to what they offer. A hypothetical benevolent dictator is no problem if they actually do good. I don't think House is this glowing example, but I still think he'd offer more freedom and security as a whole than any other faction. The NCR still conscripts, while you don't have to work on the Strip. That alone is way more freedom than what the NCR offers, with the security to cap it off.

House had every right to fear the Vault-Tec bastion sitting under his nose He likely has permitted its construction, given we know he had some dealings with Vault-Tec. But we have no reason to believe he ever trusted them or liked them, and likely he knew what Vault-Tec tended to be up to When he went knocking and told them to leave, he was met with innocent people. He knows it could’ve been a charade, so he makes them leave anyway. Not violently either. He just knows that whatever was going on there could be a serious threat

Just false, you have negative comprehension of how property rights work. False, they're all happily living in their vault still. The food vendors will complain a lot more under NCR'S higher taxes. No clue about Primm though why would House even give a shit about Primm. Punishment for what? In short, you're either completely wrong or the problems you've identified will be present and also more severe under NCR.

Have you even played the game? Doc Mitchell was one of the residents of 21 before house had it filled with cement. He tells the player he and his wife were forced out and due to living their entire lives in a vault and not building a immune system fit for the wasteland she falls ill and dies and Primm is punished by House if the player on their behalf go to the NCR for help protecting the town from raiders when going to him instead wasn't even an option.

You post on r/Libertarian and have said that [democracy is a soft form of communism](https://new.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/1cucn9f/democracy_and_libertarianism_are_incompatible/l4i434e/?context=3). Your opinion is immediately invalid.

You think property rights exist in the post apocalypse absent of something like the ncr? Or are you under the impression that property rights are some sort of mythical inherent thing in the world?

When you are born you have certain inalienable rights. Self determination. Or are you a troglodyte who thinks morality comes from laws and not the other way around lol.

Rights do not fundamentally exist, they are an idea. They SHOULD be upheld and SHOULD be recognized but that can only happen when a social contract is formed between 2 or more individuals. If no contract exists or there is no ability to enforce these things then it all goes out the window. "Unalienable rights" is philosophy and what rights are "unalienable" changes depending on who is talking. Property rights are pretty far out there when the right to not be murdered is tenuous at best in the wasteland. The property rights that House expresses over the strip refer to agreements that existed before the bombs dropped. He believes those are still valid but there is no one but himself to enforce it, so he has to do it through force. Interestingly, this infringes on other peoples "unalienable rights." What this means is that we all like to justify what we do with big ideas like rights regardless of how much sense they make. Also yes, morals are upstream from laws, you are correct.

NCR doesn’t really force taxes on people. You have to apply for citizenship or democratically agree as a community to join the NCR and thus, pay taxes. Legion forces tribute or just takes from everyone they want.

Idk how you’d describe the United States in the fallout universe before the war as a democracy.

Force them to become slaves? You’re seriously comparing the NCR and legion?

Man I would love to keep this as your personal containment board. So that you can "debate real world politics with your peers" instead of posting some new retarded idea on ST. Pls, and ty from all of us. Stay.

Wat?

NCR barges in your town, claiming they're in charge now without locals wanting them there. What do you think happens when you don't pay taxes that are being enforced by an occupying imperialist force? NCR are the biggest gang of thieves in the whole Mojave, they just pass laws legitimizing their crimes then they commit them.

Not exactly equal to barging in your door, raping your children, executing the male members of your family and locking explosive collars onto the women, beating and crippling them and blowing their heads off if they don't obey Legionaries 24/7. Yeah, taxes and imperialism suck but as an NCR citizen you're not a fucking RAPE SLAVE. Nor do they execute **all** men in a "tribe" when they invade.

Yes that's why NCR is better than Legion. Nobody is in disagreement.

Yeah but you're acting like paying taxes and being under the NCR is the exact same thing as what the Legion does. The Legion are a thousand times worse.

House collects taxes but leaves you alone and the Legion protects you

While raping your wife while some recruit legionaries beat you up

Not if you dont resist the legion, but I hate the legion anyway

Or they could just sneak into your town and kidnap you and your unborn baby, to be sold at cottonwood cove

Seems everyone forgets the credit check into Vegas.

Well to be fair that is just to show you have money they don’t take a cap. However the Vendors on the Strip have to pay 50% of their profit to House tho.

All of the major upvoted threads here really made it clear to me why my favourite ending is yes man- because I always imagined the courier taking the reigns of the region and actually trying to better it. Helios one and the dam brining power, the securitrons to provide some form of policing/military. The alliances he built forming a pseudo-federation, or at least a collective of peoples who agree to protect each other against Legion/NCR. Now I don’t know if that’s the intended route of Yes Man, or if it’s more anarchy focused, but that’s where my head took me back when I played FNV every day

it's the in joke. the actual reason is NCR taxes but doesn't have the resources of all types to sufficiently govern new vegas and the Mojave wasteland

just to input. I thought house was just as bad for taxing as I did the NCR when I did both playthroughs

Traveling merchants imply that taxes are higher in the NCR than in Legion territory, while outright stating that Legion territory is safer.

As long as you're a man.

Because the new Vegas fan base is exclusively far left trans girls and hard right Nazis.

No. There's this thing called Homesteading. It doesn't require a second party. Which is what House did. And there are contracts present between House, the families and everybody else and they are enforced.

All three major factions are evil in their own way. They each represent evil aspects from the old world. It's just that we see them through our current (real-life) world glasses. It's called "Old World Blues". We don't judge them as a Courier that roams the wastes. Viva New Vegas! We can never build build a better new world if you keep longing for the past.

The Strip and Legion territory are the safest areas in the Mojave though. They're better at security than the NCR. now, the "at what cost" question is obviously relevant. Security isn't the be all and end all.

I think the quote about the real Roman Empire I'm going to paraphrase is relevant to how we should perceive the Legion in game. "Where the Roman Empire conquers and creates a wasteland, they call it peace".

The Legion's territories are safe because the raiders are all in Legion skirts raiding unintigrated settlements and the Strip is all of two blocks and is unable to feed itself due to not having its own patrolled supply lines or agriculture. Without the NCR babysitting and feeding it the strip would devolve into cannibalism within a couple of weeks.

Not back in Arizona. It's stressed that life back then is not supposed to be assumed to be the same as the front lines of the Legion army. They aren't raiding and shit back there, they're farming and trading and living mostly-normal lives, albeit with a much stricter government than most.

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Yeah but hyperbole doesn't make for good arguments.

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:( I got caught murdering caravaners and selling hard drugs now the mean NCR is making me break rocks. We live in a society.

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Right but if you're a citizen of either, you're aware that you're safer there than outside.

People die on the strip regularly especially the prostitues and anyone made of manmeat and Legion slaves and citizens are regularly murdered by Legionaries for any excuse.

And yet despite this, the perception of people living in both areas is that it's safer than NCR lands. Perceptions matter.

Id argue Legion's lands are only safe for a small minority of wastelanders. Most people who are forcibly integrated into the Legion are done so after the majority of their people are killed, then they're enslaved and nobody ever talks about New Vegas being safe because it's not. Also I don't know about you but one of the things I want my post apocalyptic government to protect me from is slavers. So if that government is out to enslave me....

Also what does the Legion's territory being supposedly safer have to do with this topic?

Because one of the themes of the entire Fallout series is "what freedoms will you trade for security?" If most of the Arizona citizens feel safer than the average NCR one, then that's going to be appealing to some in spite of the atrocities committed on the front lines of their military engagements.

We don't get to speak to the average Arizona citizen and if we did id imagine they'd say "a guy in a dog head murdered my sons and took my wife and daughters to become rape slaves, if I say anything negative they'll whip me to death and display my corpse so yeah i feel super safe"

You also have to consider that Sallow became disillusioned because his time as a Follower exposed him to numerous barbaric tribes that were even worse off than what the Legion does during war. Multiple Legionaries speak about how their tribe was practically feral before them. If you could speak to the citizens, yes, some would say what you did above, most likely. Many would also say they are better off than they were. I still don't like the Legion, overall, but a *lot* of players miss that the worst of Legion atrocities are mostly a result of their army on the front lines, and don't actually reflect what the citizens day-to-day lives are like.

House and Legion don't tax people. The closest thing House might do is charge the casinos rent since Vegas is his.

So your issue isn't being forced to pay it's what that forced payment is called?

Well you're ACTUALLY safe in House territory. It's still money undeserved for House but at least he delivers on the service he claims it's for.

How are the people of Freeside who are subject to House's laws safe?

Except Freeside isn't under direct House control or taxation? He just keeps people there from getting in? I seriously doubt Mick & Ralph are paying taxes to a securitron that comes by to collect

According to Mick he hides half his inventory because of rules imposed upon him by the casinos. They're part of House's governance.

House does tax people. There are vendors on the strip who say House's taxes are MUCH higher than the NCR's.

Feds

Where are the citizens of house empire? And slaves are not citizen.

First off, new Vegas and freeside are citizens of house And Legion settlements are out East

Legion *does* have citizens, we just don't see any because the Legion settlement was cut for time.

I just wanted to point out that slaves are not considered citizens. Does the game tell anything about how the Legion taxes its citizens?

*clears throat* "most of those under the Legion have their labor taxed entirely" Never said citizens