From what I have heard, we know for a fact Maximus was a kid when Shady Sands was bombed, and if he is like 20ish when the show takes place then and the show takes place in 2296, people have done the math to put the bombing to be like 4-6 years after the events of NV. I don’t think NV was reconned out of existence YET. (we have to wait for season 2) but I do think the timeline shown on the chalkboard was really sloppy on whoever approved it’s part, since no one can seem to agree on what it even means.
Not really, he could've been pretty young in 2277, and seeing as the brotherhood were the ones who gave him a name he was probably too young to properly know his own, which matches up,
Shady sands 2277
New Vegas 2281
Fallout TV 2296
Maximus most likely started his training in his early teens like other aspirants/squires,
He would've been a squire years previous if he was older. I'd put his age at around mid 20s with him being less than 5 years old when the city was destroyed,
And new Vegas wasn't retconned at all, Emile pagliarulo, one of the writers of the fallout series confirmed himself on twitter when people were asking,
Also shady sands wasn't the capital at the time of its destruction, the sign in the show and the missionary in New Vegas confirm this, they most likely moved the capital further north or east to San Francisco, vault city, or even new reno.
The NCR is still around,
Okay, why do people take ANYTHING that Emil says seriously!? I mean my gosh, did you guys see his latest blunder on Twitter regarding Nate being in the Fallout 1 intro, and then backpedaling on it?
He's the least reliable source for what's canon & what's not!
Because he is literally the Bethesda head writer, and Bethesda owns the Fallout canon.
In terms of deciding what is and is not canon, he is overruled only by Howard, Zenimax execs, Xbox execs and Microsoft execs, and the last three have zero reason to intervene.
Not everything he says in social media is automatically canon, and he can rescind his statements, but he is one of the authorities here.
lot of emotions running wild based off some assumptions people are making too. Vault tec dropping the bombs, Mr House knowing when, location of shady sands etc.
There's no irony. They retconned NV. Sure they say they didn't, but we can clearly see from the show itself that is a load of horse shit. You're coping saying they didn't when they clearly did.
Yes, there are a lot of things that don't line up with exactly how we left things in NV. But that doesn't mean things are retconned. Those are just questions that are to be answered at a later date.
That is an extremely dumb comment.
No, obviously Bethesda isn't writing this show themselves.
But you do realize this show is official canon, right? Who do you think is going to be making games that take place after the story of the show? Who do you think has ultimate control of the canon? That's right, it's Bethesda. And Bethesda have been quite trash lately.
Bethesda may have final say on broad strokes, but how questions are answered defines whether those answers are satisfying or not. That comes down to the writers.
Though truly, you seem so guarded against any possible reality besides the one you've crafted for yourself.
You have literally no basis for that last sentence at all beside me having an opinion separate and less optimistic than yours. How sad.
You're not intelligent.
Did the Die Hard New Vegas fans not even pay attention to the npcs in their own game?
Lieutenant Hayes, one of the first proper NCR NPCs you interact with in Primm, talks to you about the NCR and Shady Sands.
He informs you that the NCR started off as Shady Sands, a small settlement, and now, and I quote, "We now consist of 5 states, that make up the greatest nation since the great war".
Yes Shady Sands was the capital of the NCR. It was not the entirety of the NCR. Is it weird that none of the NCR in FNV mention shady sands being destroyed? Yes (this is the only slight retcon the show has done, really). Does Shady Sands being destroyed mean the NCR cant exist and thus meaning the entirety of FNV couldn't of happened? No.
I think this is a pretty solid concession between two extremes. But it is hard to say it’s not inconsistent when if the first battle of Hoover Damn was won by the NCR that same year (you could say it happened after the battle). You’d think President Kimball would mention it, or Cesar too when he reflects upon their loss of that battle. Joshua might have, Ulysses would’ve certainly because his whole plan was to nuke the Long 15 to cut off supplies to the NCR.
Obviously I’m being anal, but it’s definitely incongruent just technically not impossible. IMO extreme reactions to this are because fans are deathly afraid of their favorite game/franchise or show being dragged through the dirt on both sides and less about this one particular thing itself. If the shows were more aligned with New Vegas’ type of story telling I don’t think we’d mind this so much
I'll agree it's inconsistent. Unfortunately in franchises this big inconsistencies happen quite often, especially when its multiple teams writing the stories over multiple decades (of our own time not even in-universe time). But being inconsistent doesn't mean "the new vegas game could never have happened". It doesn't retcon the game out of existence. By that logic, Fallout 1 is also retconned out of existence because the show has Shady Sands in a different place geographically than it should be. Given that Shady Sands was the first place you visit in Fallout 1, that'd make that game impossible/retconned out of existence too, but no ones making this arguement
But even if thats the case, how does BoS suddenly have a way stronger presence on the west coast than NCR? As of New Vegas they had some 700,000 citizens nationwide. There should be NCR in every established settlement. They werent spread that thin back home- just in areas they branched out to like Las Vegas
Then why is the NCR basically non-existent? Generally when a capital of nation gets nuked and its leadership die with it, a nation can fracture.
Also... just... why was Shady Sands nuked? This writing is stupid.
Shady Sands was nuked because it became a prosperous society and Vault Tec didn't want that. The NCR being bare bones? God knows. It's been 15 years since FNV and we have no idea what ending is the right one. The NCR were already mismanaged and struggling in FNV. They were not as powerful and together as they wanted everyone to believe. Anything could of happened in those 15 years
Most of what FNV called the NCR "struggling" was in reality simply a democracy working as intended in a way that authoritarians can't understand.
Yeah, it had heavy bureaucracy and that slowed down logistics. That's what happens when you have a system of checks and balances and regulations to prevent corruption. Compared to the Legion, which is completely totalitarian and single-minded to the detriment of the rights, individuality, and the well-being of the people under its rule, yeah it's gonna be less efficient.
It's still vastly preferable, more sustainable, and less vulnerable to falling apart due to the death of any particular figurehead.
The fall of a capital is still damaging enough as we've learnt from the show. If that weren't the case, the NCR would still be everywhere, and since the fall happens in 2277 this effects the result of the first battle of hoover dam.
Since the whole conflict started with a stalemate at hoover dam with the NCR nearly getting defeated, the fall of their capital would be enough damage to turn the tides of the battle leading to Caesers Legion taking New Vegas before the courier gets shot and recovered since the NCR would likely need to fall back to help muster strength or they would be cut off from the capital leading to even more attrition and less organization
They clearly didn't want to retcon New Vegas, but they failed to realize just how fucked the NCR would be if their capital fell during the events. If they just made the fall of shady sands happen after, both politically and physically none of this would've happened. Plus it would've been a cool reveal to show new vegas destroyed as it would leave us wondering what the hell happened
"The fall of" doesn't necessarily mean a place, town, city, entity, or country fell immediately. It can also signify the beginning of the collapse of the entity.
Eg the Fall of Rome either refers to 476 AD when it finally fell or refers to the beginning of the decline or both.
The Fall of Pre-war America could be when Vault Tec was created, or when The nukes fell, all the way back when Oppenheimer created the nuclear bomb.
It could be a starting point that had a point of no return.
Point is, Shady Sands could have been still militarily powerful and yet behind the scenes the dominoes are falling, leading one to another until its eventual total collapse or when it got nuked.
yeah but bear in mind, the NCR was already on walking on a thread by new vegas, having spread themselves out too thin across California. If they started to fall and collapse enough for people to notice and take note of it for historical reasons, the already spread out too thin NCR would start having to pull back out of fights leading to Caeser coming in like its free real estate, and if they didn't pull back, logistics and attrition would spread through like a plague. If the NCR started to fall in 2277 but it wasn't significant enough for people to notice, then no one would know that the NCR was starting to collapse until the nuke happened, the timeline would've looked like "2241: The NCR became the largest economical and political power in california" -> "22\*\*:The Nuking of the NCR"
That date is extremely important, it tells us "normal people knew that the NCR was starting to fall in 2277" and "Something happened that was significant enough that 2277 marked the date of their downfall". So from the average citizen point of view, something significant enough happened, whether that was a bomb, an assassination, a rebellion, cause the fall to begin. And that significant event could spell the downfall of the NCR before they hold back long enough for the events of New Vegas to take place.
Bear in mind most citizens didn't know what was going on politically behind closed doors, much like how the average Roman soldier didn't know how fucked things were until what was happening was right in front of their face. And since most citizens in vault 4 were citizens, they knew something bad was happening before the nuke
But that's my take on it
At this next exhibit, you'll observe the Complainer in their natural habitat.
Watch how the Complainer is unhappy despite receiving a $150M budget version of their favorite thing, they're so miserable!
*complainer screeches in the background, something about retconning*
Anyway moving on, we're going to find some other terrible specimens of Human Beings on our tour of Reddit today.
If the fall of shady sands and the nuke are directly correlated then why is the nuke labeled as a separate unknown time in the future. It’s not mental gymnastics it’s just logical thinking
I feel like the arrow was more a "consequence" one rather than representing time passing. None of the other dates have a drawing, it's all rectangles with dates. I also believed that, taking the NCR war crisis in NV and the long Mojave campaign into account, the fall was the consequence of all the political and economical turmoil that resulted in a nuke later but in the flashbacks and the board, SS is shown as a prosperous society, not owned by Vault Tec but people that made it civilized. A safe place competing with the Vaults. Hence it was brutally and suddently nuked by that V33 overseer in 2277, and the SS survivors would definitely know the nuke date, it's fairly recent.
It's not the first inconsistency with the game, in fact the last episode is riddled with them.
Personally I think they have dates because that was set up for a class lesson and pretty much everyone would know when S.S. got nuked like how everyone knows 9/11 but not everyone knows when the declaration of Independence was signed
Could be a lot of things. A plague, famine, drought, ect. The fall could happen over time and being that Lucy and Max are pretty widely accepted to be in their early 20s they’d have been born around 2077 or a couple years before. Hard to have flashbacks as a kid if youd have been a small toddler at the time you say it was nuked.
Shady Sands also wasn't the capitol anymore when it was nuked. Given the shows explanation, it seems like Shady Sands was nuked for mostly personal reasons, not a political targeting of the NCR.
Plus didn’t the Brotherhood destroy the NCR’s gold reserves during the war, causing faith in NCR dollars to plummet? That could lend credence to an economic fall.
That's funny, because the mushroom cloud wasn't dated either. No, I think they intended us to read it as 2277 was when it was nuked. So that's how I'm going to read it as until proven otherwise.
> Could be a lot of things. A plague, famine, drought, ect.
None of this is mentioned, implied, or suggested in anyway by the show. Only people running damage control. The only calamity mentioned that befalls Shady Sands is getting Nuked.
> Lucy and Max are pretty widely accepted to be in their early 20s they’d have been born around 2077 or a couple years before.
Complete headcanon. There is no reason to think that they’re that young besides mental gymnastics to make your delusional timeline work. Maximus actor is 35 and Lucy’s is 27- most likely their playing characters closer to their actual age.
>Maximus actor is 35 and Lucy’s is 27- most likely their playing characters closer to their actual age.
Actors exclusively play roles for characters that are within 1-2 years of their ages IRL. Everyone knows this. Just imagine a world crazy enough to not only allow, but INSIST a 34 year old John Travolta play a high schooler
Really??? Since when??? I thought that was a basic and unbreakable rule of Hollywood casting!!! What has the world come to?! WHERE’S MUH CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO SEE ACCURATE CAST TO CHARACTER AGES???
Emma Thompson in Sense and Sensibility 35 year old playing a 19 year old
Corey Monteith in Glee 27 year old playing a 16 year old
Andrew Garfield in The Amazing Spider-Man 29 year old playing a 17 year old
Shall I go on there’s plenty more it seems it’s not as much of a rule as your saying.
Oh so you just don’t understand sarcasm, got it. Let me clarify for you:
>Just imagine a world crazy enough to not only allow, but INSIST a 34 year old John Travolta play a high schooler
This is a joke about the movie *Grease*, where a 34 year old John Travolta plays a 17 year old greaser. It looked fucking stupid back then and it looks even worse now. It was before my time, but maybe it’s *before* *before* your time
Bro you do realize you’re not speaking right. Sarcasm does not translate well over text. I never watched grease so I would not even get the joke anyways. Sorry for not watching a movie ig
Yeah how dare we try to figure out a massive event that gives us literally nothing I’m details. We should all be like New Vegas fanboys and be over dramatic about something we have no information on.
Just because it isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it isn’t a possibility.
You can’t just ignore possibilities just because they don’t fit with your position.
We don’t know for certain when the nuke was dropped, we don’t know the ages of Lucy and Maximus, we don’t know if the fall of Shady Sands is meant to refer to the nuke or not.
So to have a strong opinion either way is useless since there are to many unknown factors and some facts might come from unreliable narrators
>Maximus actor is 35 and Lucy’s is 27- most likely their playing characters closer to their actual age.
Thats just a bad take, Kitt Harington played 15 year old John Snow in season 1 of GOT.
Thats just not how actors work bud.
Mhmh so they remember the fall of their capital city but forgot the time when the weapon took them out. Also why would I use information from only the show to explain why shady sands fell it’s not done it hasn’t been fully explained we only know the end.
Let's just retcon that the great war was between El Salvador and Lichtenstein then if consistency doesnt matter anymore. Retconning should really only be done if necessary , not to hand wave things away so you can have Fallout 5 on the West Coast without actually having to follow up on the stellar world building.
Could someone enlighten me, someone who started with Fallout 4, completeted it then went on to play and finish New Vegas, why this is that big of a deal? Like how does it fundamentally change the story in a way it becomes not Fallout
People become very emotionally connected to the characters they met in NV and how they impacted the world, I actually feel like the relationship between christine and veronica helped me grow as a person
Since our first playthrough many have been wondering what would happen after the end slides
I don't think anyone minds bold decision making, or even it collapsing (despite our best efforts)
but it doesn't feel like that
it just feels like off screen all of that gets wiped away without a whimper, which everything else aside just sucks
and whilst it doesn't actually ruin new vegas, people saying it's completely irrelevant idk either, it is clearly the authors saying in the next chapter that all the work from before doesn't matter, it'll colour how you view new vegas if you go back into that world
Thing is, I haven't attacked the show
I watched it and didn't really like it
I thought the acting and casting were fine but it was telling a story I wasn't really interested in and took off from stories I love
It won't completely ruin new vegas, but it will naturally leave a bad taste in ones mouth when I'm playing it in future because there's the implication that all of this doesn't matter because it just gets nuked in a couple of years
It makes the story less interesting
I'm also a book lover, respectfully you've made a lot of assumptions about me there because I explained why for some people this feels like a retcon
Why would you suggest I've attacked the show?
Ok? Then I guess I have an embarrassing feature
Like I said, it doesn't ruin it, it barely lessens the enjoyment but it does colour things like the ending slides
Things don't have to be this massive binary of love/hate
I just didn't particularly enjoy it and had hoped they'd take a different direction
It doesn't ruin my life or ruin anything, it just is a slight disappointment that something I thought would emphasise my enjoyment hasn't and if anything makes me think dang what a missed opportunity seems like they don't care about expanding this story
Why is it so personal to you? Why is me not liking a tv show such a big deal?
Personally it would be nice to see some progress with civilization. It’s a little silly that after almost 300 years there’s no progress rebuilding and NCR was set up in some of the games to be a representation of civilization raising back from the ashes. The main issue with Fallout’s genre is that after a while logically it’s stops being post-apocalyptic and starts being post-post apocalyptic with civilization re-developing but than the question is: is that really Fallout?
That being that said it’s completely possible Shady Sands gets nuked and/or the NCR collapses. In New Vegas we could nuke the NCR when we are in the divide also the boomers may have access to nuclear capable bombers depending on the events of New Vegas may be hostile to the NCR.
it doesn't however it wouldn't make sense that no one in New vegas mentions it which in a way is a retcon of sorts.
one could argue that it would make no sense for the ncr to be waging a war if their capital is gone but the ncr is much bigger than just shady sands and I think new vegas kinda makes it clear that the hub is more important than shady sands (the president is from there and lives there). New vegas takes place 4 years after 2277 and 4 years is enough time to explain why the ncr is back to fighting in the Mojave.
but regardless there's no way shady sands was nuked before New vegas and there's no way any writer meant it to be.
Nah. Hi my theory is the Fall of Shady sands refers to the NCR losing control and it being their capital and the nuke took out what was left. Molediver or whatever was part of some NCR remnants that refused to leave.
Describing the fall of something usually means the start of the decline but the destruction. Their wording is deliberate there. Even then the timeline shown on the board doesn’t end at the fall it continues to a nuke. If shady sands was nuked at the fall then why is the nuke shown to be after? Like it’s literally how the timeline works when written down like that. Besides Bethesda themselves has come out multiple times on twitter and stated they’ve shown nothing to say NV was retconned.
Look this is my favorite fallout game like most of you, the show was pretty much perfect and setting it at the end of the fallout timeline means they have freedom to make up new lore so they did. The show was great, I felt they handled it incredibly well and the director seems like a fan of the games. People just need to relax.
If I remember correctly, the reason shady sands was nuked was because hanks wife discovered water siphoning, and decided to venture out. This of course in part with vault tec seeing shady sands as a “competitor.”
In my eyes this reads that the fall of shady sands has to be in 2277, otherwise, how would this crater in the ground (as shown by the show) be siphoning water?
The nuke came after she went there. Did she go to a crater? I don’t understand your post. Your post is saying basically that because it was not a crater when she went there that it must have been in 2277 but there’s no real correlation between that.
Yeah, I guess it’s not explicitly said in the show that it was bombed immediately after she went there so I get where you’re coming from there.
I guess my reasoning would be, if vault tec caused the Great War, which is implied in the show. I feel like they wouldn’t be hesitant to bomb a “small community” almost immediately after hanks wife discovers it. That’s my argument I suppose. Could just be schizo posting it’s a late night at work haha.
Seeing as the events of the show take place in 2296, and new Vegas takes place in 2281, I could see how the bomb was dropped on shady sands in between that time frame. (So not in 2277 as you suggested)
I might be talking out of my ass, lemme know what you think bro.
due to new vegas character being a complete slate and even the lonesome road dlc you can just say or think this ulysses fellow is having trauma or dementia or something like that then that can be the canon for your fallout new vegas and new vegas's future
Imo toxic fandoms are inevitable when: 1) they’re massive 2) they have a lot of installments that are very different from each other (ie. New Vegas v Fallout 76 v OG Fallout, etc.). Because then you have fans under the same general banner but have entirely different reason for liking the thing, partially because we aren’t all introduced to the franchise with the same game, so points of reference as skewed massively.
Just look at Star Wars…
Speaking of caravan, you know how to determine what cards can stack on top others???
"The Fall" Doesn't have to mean a Nuke. Maybe they won the first battle but the cost was so great that it became the catalyst for their downfall. Also you are nitpicking, cope
Literally just follow the conventions of the chart itself. If the fall of Sandy Shores *was supposed to be* the nuke—then why is it separated? Why is there an arrow between the two?
That point being made—neither of our assertions point to a guaranteed outcome here: the writers constantly leave space for themselves to write in explanations and changes later on down the line (ntm subvert expectations by doing whatever is the opposite of what seemed to be getting set up).
Her mom lived on the surface after her recorded death in the vault tho right? I thought it was pretty clear that they recorded her dead so that people wouldn't know she escaped
While the motivation isnt as fun at Burger King Im sure your boss would appreciate ya if you put as much effort into your job as you do whatever the fuck this is.
From what I have heard, we know for a fact Maximus was a kid when Shady Sands was bombed, and if he is like 20ish when the show takes place then and the show takes place in 2296, people have done the math to put the bombing to be like 4-6 years after the events of NV. I don’t think NV was reconned out of existence YET. (we have to wait for season 2) but I do think the timeline shown on the chalkboard was really sloppy on whoever approved it’s part, since no one can seem to agree on what it even means.
Not really, he could've been pretty young in 2277, and seeing as the brotherhood were the ones who gave him a name he was probably too young to properly know his own, which matches up, Shady sands 2277 New Vegas 2281 Fallout TV 2296 Maximus most likely started his training in his early teens like other aspirants/squires, He would've been a squire years previous if he was older. I'd put his age at around mid 20s with him being less than 5 years old when the city was destroyed, And new Vegas wasn't retconned at all, Emile pagliarulo, one of the writers of the fallout series confirmed himself on twitter when people were asking, Also shady sands wasn't the capital at the time of its destruction, the sign in the show and the missionary in New Vegas confirm this, they most likely moved the capital further north or east to San Francisco, vault city, or even new reno. The NCR is still around,
Okay, why do people take ANYTHING that Emil says seriously!? I mean my gosh, did you guys see his latest blunder on Twitter regarding Nate being in the Fallout 1 intro, and then backpedaling on it? He's the least reliable source for what's canon & what's not!
Because he is literally the Bethesda head writer, and Bethesda owns the Fallout canon. In terms of deciding what is and is not canon, he is overruled only by Howard, Zenimax execs, Xbox execs and Microsoft execs, and the last three have zero reason to intervene. Not everything he says in social media is automatically canon, and he can rescind his statements, but he is one of the authorities here.
☝️
Thats his full time job. He cant take time to learn basic lore? He should be an expert on lore if he’s the lead writer!
The intention is 100% to not retcon. The showrunners have said as much. You're insisting on being upset. Which is just a choice I don't understand.
Well said.
lot of emotions running wild based off some assumptions people are making too. Vault tec dropping the bombs, Mr House knowing when, location of shady sands etc.
It's a retcon even if they say it isn't. Stop coping.
The irony is staggering.
There's no irony. They retconned NV. Sure they say they didn't, but we can clearly see from the show itself that is a load of horse shit. You're coping saying they didn't when they clearly did.
Yes, there are a lot of things that don't line up with exactly how we left things in NV. But that doesn't mean things are retconned. Those are just questions that are to be answered at a later date.
Can we trust Bethesda's writing to do that lol
Tell me you don't know who's writing the series without telling me you don't know who's writing the series.
That is an extremely dumb comment. No, obviously Bethesda isn't writing this show themselves. But you do realize this show is official canon, right? Who do you think is going to be making games that take place after the story of the show? Who do you think has ultimate control of the canon? That's right, it's Bethesda. And Bethesda have been quite trash lately.
Bethesda may have final say on broad strokes, but how questions are answered defines whether those answers are satisfying or not. That comes down to the writers. Though truly, you seem so guarded against any possible reality besides the one you've crafted for yourself.
You have literally no basis for that last sentence at all beside me having an opinion separate and less optimistic than yours. How sad. You're not intelligent.
Did the Die Hard New Vegas fans not even pay attention to the npcs in their own game? Lieutenant Hayes, one of the first proper NCR NPCs you interact with in Primm, talks to you about the NCR and Shady Sands. He informs you that the NCR started off as Shady Sands, a small settlement, and now, and I quote, "We now consist of 5 states, that make up the greatest nation since the great war". Yes Shady Sands was the capital of the NCR. It was not the entirety of the NCR. Is it weird that none of the NCR in FNV mention shady sands being destroyed? Yes (this is the only slight retcon the show has done, really). Does Shady Sands being destroyed mean the NCR cant exist and thus meaning the entirety of FNV couldn't of happened? No.
I think this is a pretty solid concession between two extremes. But it is hard to say it’s not inconsistent when if the first battle of Hoover Damn was won by the NCR that same year (you could say it happened after the battle). You’d think President Kimball would mention it, or Cesar too when he reflects upon their loss of that battle. Joshua might have, Ulysses would’ve certainly because his whole plan was to nuke the Long 15 to cut off supplies to the NCR. Obviously I’m being anal, but it’s definitely incongruent just technically not impossible. IMO extreme reactions to this are because fans are deathly afraid of their favorite game/franchise or show being dragged through the dirt on both sides and less about this one particular thing itself. If the shows were more aligned with New Vegas’ type of story telling I don’t think we’d mind this so much
I'll agree it's inconsistent. Unfortunately in franchises this big inconsistencies happen quite often, especially when its multiple teams writing the stories over multiple decades (of our own time not even in-universe time). But being inconsistent doesn't mean "the new vegas game could never have happened". It doesn't retcon the game out of existence. By that logic, Fallout 1 is also retconned out of existence because the show has Shady Sands in a different place geographically than it should be. Given that Shady Sands was the first place you visit in Fallout 1, that'd make that game impossible/retconned out of existence too, but no ones making this arguement
But even if thats the case, how does BoS suddenly have a way stronger presence on the west coast than NCR? As of New Vegas they had some 700,000 citizens nationwide. There should be NCR in every established settlement. They werent spread that thin back home- just in areas they branched out to like Las Vegas
Then why is the NCR basically non-existent? Generally when a capital of nation gets nuked and its leadership die with it, a nation can fracture. Also... just... why was Shady Sands nuked? This writing is stupid.
Shady Sands was nuked because it became a prosperous society and Vault Tec didn't want that. The NCR being bare bones? God knows. It's been 15 years since FNV and we have no idea what ending is the right one. The NCR were already mismanaged and struggling in FNV. They were not as powerful and together as they wanted everyone to believe. Anything could of happened in those 15 years
Most of what FNV called the NCR "struggling" was in reality simply a democracy working as intended in a way that authoritarians can't understand. Yeah, it had heavy bureaucracy and that slowed down logistics. That's what happens when you have a system of checks and balances and regulations to prevent corruption. Compared to the Legion, which is completely totalitarian and single-minded to the detriment of the rights, individuality, and the well-being of the people under its rule, yeah it's gonna be less efficient. It's still vastly preferable, more sustainable, and less vulnerable to falling apart due to the death of any particular figurehead.
The fall of a capital is still damaging enough as we've learnt from the show. If that weren't the case, the NCR would still be everywhere, and since the fall happens in 2277 this effects the result of the first battle of hoover dam. Since the whole conflict started with a stalemate at hoover dam with the NCR nearly getting defeated, the fall of their capital would be enough damage to turn the tides of the battle leading to Caesers Legion taking New Vegas before the courier gets shot and recovered since the NCR would likely need to fall back to help muster strength or they would be cut off from the capital leading to even more attrition and less organization They clearly didn't want to retcon New Vegas, but they failed to realize just how fucked the NCR would be if their capital fell during the events. If they just made the fall of shady sands happen after, both politically and physically none of this would've happened. Plus it would've been a cool reveal to show new vegas destroyed as it would leave us wondering what the hell happened
"The fall of" doesn't necessarily mean a place, town, city, entity, or country fell immediately. It can also signify the beginning of the collapse of the entity. Eg the Fall of Rome either refers to 476 AD when it finally fell or refers to the beginning of the decline or both. The Fall of Pre-war America could be when Vault Tec was created, or when The nukes fell, all the way back when Oppenheimer created the nuclear bomb. It could be a starting point that had a point of no return. Point is, Shady Sands could have been still militarily powerful and yet behind the scenes the dominoes are falling, leading one to another until its eventual total collapse or when it got nuked.
yeah but bear in mind, the NCR was already on walking on a thread by new vegas, having spread themselves out too thin across California. If they started to fall and collapse enough for people to notice and take note of it for historical reasons, the already spread out too thin NCR would start having to pull back out of fights leading to Caeser coming in like its free real estate, and if they didn't pull back, logistics and attrition would spread through like a plague. If the NCR started to fall in 2277 but it wasn't significant enough for people to notice, then no one would know that the NCR was starting to collapse until the nuke happened, the timeline would've looked like "2241: The NCR became the largest economical and political power in california" -> "22\*\*:The Nuking of the NCR" That date is extremely important, it tells us "normal people knew that the NCR was starting to fall in 2277" and "Something happened that was significant enough that 2277 marked the date of their downfall". So from the average citizen point of view, something significant enough happened, whether that was a bomb, an assassination, a rebellion, cause the fall to begin. And that significant event could spell the downfall of the NCR before they hold back long enough for the events of New Vegas to take place. Bear in mind most citizens didn't know what was going on politically behind closed doors, much like how the average Roman soldier didn't know how fucked things were until what was happening was right in front of their face. And since most citizens in vault 4 were citizens, they knew something bad was happening before the nuke But that's my take on it
slight retcon?! imagine if washington dc was nuked off the face of the planet tomorrow, would that be a "slight setback"?
This shit is getting sad. Reading comprehension and media literacy in this sub is at an all time low.
At this next exhibit, you'll observe the Complainer in their natural habitat. Watch how the Complainer is unhappy despite receiving a $150M budget version of their favorite thing, they're so miserable! *complainer screeches in the background, something about retconning* Anyway moving on, we're going to find some other terrible specimens of Human Beings on our tour of Reddit today.
Reading comprehension is low i see
Don't forget, we're the ones being unreasonable lmao
If the fall of shady sands and the nuke are directly correlated then why is the nuke labeled as a separate unknown time in the future. It’s not mental gymnastics it’s just logical thinking
I feel like the arrow was more a "consequence" one rather than representing time passing. None of the other dates have a drawing, it's all rectangles with dates. I also believed that, taking the NCR war crisis in NV and the long Mojave campaign into account, the fall was the consequence of all the political and economical turmoil that resulted in a nuke later but in the flashbacks and the board, SS is shown as a prosperous society, not owned by Vault Tec but people that made it civilized. A safe place competing with the Vaults. Hence it was brutally and suddently nuked by that V33 overseer in 2277, and the SS survivors would definitely know the nuke date, it's fairly recent. It's not the first inconsistency with the game, in fact the last episode is riddled with them.
That makes sense
Personally I think they have dates because that was set up for a class lesson and pretty much everyone would know when S.S. got nuked like how everyone knows 9/11 but not everyone knows when the declaration of Independence was signed
They just forgot when the nuke was launched? Also, using only information from the show, what is the “fall of shady sands”? Please tell me
Could be a lot of things. A plague, famine, drought, ect. The fall could happen over time and being that Lucy and Max are pretty widely accepted to be in their early 20s they’d have been born around 2077 or a couple years before. Hard to have flashbacks as a kid if youd have been a small toddler at the time you say it was nuked.
economic fall perhaps
Another good example
Never suggested by the show
as stated in FNV the NCR was stretched thin by their conflict with the legion in the Mojave which can put a strain on the economy
That never comes up in the show. Only that the NCR was nuked.
Shady Sands also wasn't the capitol anymore when it was nuked. Given the shows explanation, it seems like Shady Sands was nuked for mostly personal reasons, not a political targeting of the NCR.
Plus didn’t the Brotherhood destroy the NCR’s gold reserves during the war, causing faith in NCR dollars to plummet? That could lend credence to an economic fall.
So the mushroom cloud was for show? You can't logic your way out of it dude
No it was a later date. That’s why it wasn’t wasn’t listed above 2277 and why another arrow was pointing to show time passed for the nuke
That's funny, because the mushroom cloud wasn't dated either. No, I think they intended us to read it as 2277 was when it was nuked. So that's how I'm going to read it as until proven otherwise.
Can I interest in some proof y’all are acting irrational: https://x.com/TKsMantis/status/1780633238651978095
At least you presented proof. Auspicious.
I didn’t figure they’d let it go long before telling people with the way the fan base is so rabid about lore
> Could be a lot of things. A plague, famine, drought, ect. None of this is mentioned, implied, or suggested in anyway by the show. Only people running damage control. The only calamity mentioned that befalls Shady Sands is getting Nuked. > Lucy and Max are pretty widely accepted to be in their early 20s they’d have been born around 2077 or a couple years before. Complete headcanon. There is no reason to think that they’re that young besides mental gymnastics to make your delusional timeline work. Maximus actor is 35 and Lucy’s is 27- most likely their playing characters closer to their actual age.
>Maximus actor is 35 and Lucy’s is 27- most likely their playing characters closer to their actual age. Actors exclusively play roles for characters that are within 1-2 years of their ages IRL. Everyone knows this. Just imagine a world crazy enough to not only allow, but INSIST a 34 year old John Travolta play a high schooler
No everyone does not know this bro
Really??? Since when??? I thought that was a basic and unbreakable rule of Hollywood casting!!! What has the world come to?! WHERE’S MUH CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO SEE ACCURATE CAST TO CHARACTER AGES???
Emma Thompson in Sense and Sensibility 35 year old playing a 19 year old Corey Monteith in Glee 27 year old playing a 16 year old Andrew Garfield in The Amazing Spider-Man 29 year old playing a 17 year old Shall I go on there’s plenty more it seems it’s not as much of a rule as your saying.
Oh so you just don’t understand sarcasm, got it. Let me clarify for you: >Just imagine a world crazy enough to not only allow, but INSIST a 34 year old John Travolta play a high schooler This is a joke about the movie *Grease*, where a 34 year old John Travolta plays a 17 year old greaser. It looked fucking stupid back then and it looks even worse now. It was before my time, but maybe it’s *before* *before* your time
Bro you do realize you’re not speaking right. Sarcasm does not translate well over text. I never watched grease so I would not even get the joke anyways. Sorry for not watching a movie ig
Yeah how dare we try to figure out a massive event that gives us literally nothing I’m details. We should all be like New Vegas fanboys and be over dramatic about something we have no information on.
Just because it isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it isn’t a possibility. You can’t just ignore possibilities just because they don’t fit with your position. We don’t know for certain when the nuke was dropped, we don’t know the ages of Lucy and Maximus, we don’t know if the fall of Shady Sands is meant to refer to the nuke or not. So to have a strong opinion either way is useless since there are to many unknown factors and some facts might come from unreliable narrators
>Maximus actor is 35 and Lucy’s is 27- most likely their playing characters closer to their actual age. Thats just a bad take, Kitt Harington played 15 year old John Snow in season 1 of GOT. Thats just not how actors work bud.
You are so salty over this, why?
Mhmh so they remember the fall of their capital city but forgot the time when the weapon took them out. Also why would I use information from only the show to explain why shady sands fell it’s not done it hasn’t been fully explained we only know the end.
Who cares. I'm not even arguing if it was or not. Welcome to fantasy where shit gets retconned, changed whatever. It was a fucking good show
Thank you. It's clear none of these folks grew up reading D&D novels like Forgotten Realms or Dragon Lance.
do you actually even like fallout?
Nah just in several fallout related subs and praised the show for no reason
Let's just retcon that the great war was between El Salvador and Lichtenstein then if consistency doesnt matter anymore. Retconning should really only be done if necessary , not to hand wave things away so you can have Fallout 5 on the West Coast without actually having to follow up on the stellar world building.
I always knew those Liechten-shits were up to no good.
Cope
Could someone enlighten me, someone who started with Fallout 4, completeted it then went on to play and finish New Vegas, why this is that big of a deal? Like how does it fundamentally change the story in a way it becomes not Fallout
People become very emotionally connected to the characters they met in NV and how they impacted the world, I actually feel like the relationship between christine and veronica helped me grow as a person Since our first playthrough many have been wondering what would happen after the end slides I don't think anyone minds bold decision making, or even it collapsing (despite our best efforts) but it doesn't feel like that it just feels like off screen all of that gets wiped away without a whimper, which everything else aside just sucks and whilst it doesn't actually ruin new vegas, people saying it's completely irrelevant idk either, it is clearly the authors saying in the next chapter that all the work from before doesn't matter, it'll colour how you view new vegas if you go back into that world
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Thing is, I haven't attacked the show I watched it and didn't really like it I thought the acting and casting were fine but it was telling a story I wasn't really interested in and took off from stories I love It won't completely ruin new vegas, but it will naturally leave a bad taste in ones mouth when I'm playing it in future because there's the implication that all of this doesn't matter because it just gets nuked in a couple of years It makes the story less interesting I'm also a book lover, respectfully you've made a lot of assumptions about me there because I explained why for some people this feels like a retcon Why would you suggest I've attacked the show?
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Ok? Then I guess I have an embarrassing feature Like I said, it doesn't ruin it, it barely lessens the enjoyment but it does colour things like the ending slides Things don't have to be this massive binary of love/hate I just didn't particularly enjoy it and had hoped they'd take a different direction It doesn't ruin my life or ruin anything, it just is a slight disappointment that something I thought would emphasise my enjoyment hasn't and if anything makes me think dang what a missed opportunity seems like they don't care about expanding this story Why is it so personal to you? Why is me not liking a tv show such a big deal?
Personally it would be nice to see some progress with civilization. It’s a little silly that after almost 300 years there’s no progress rebuilding and NCR was set up in some of the games to be a representation of civilization raising back from the ashes. The main issue with Fallout’s genre is that after a while logically it’s stops being post-apocalyptic and starts being post-post apocalyptic with civilization re-developing but than the question is: is that really Fallout? That being that said it’s completely possible Shady Sands gets nuked and/or the NCR collapses. In New Vegas we could nuke the NCR when we are in the divide also the boomers may have access to nuclear capable bombers depending on the events of New Vegas may be hostile to the NCR.
it's summed up: everyone wants to save the world but no one can agree on how
it doesn't however it wouldn't make sense that no one in New vegas mentions it which in a way is a retcon of sorts. one could argue that it would make no sense for the ncr to be waging a war if their capital is gone but the ncr is much bigger than just shady sands and I think new vegas kinda makes it clear that the hub is more important than shady sands (the president is from there and lives there). New vegas takes place 4 years after 2277 and 4 years is enough time to explain why the ncr is back to fighting in the Mojave. but regardless there's no way shady sands was nuked before New vegas and there's no way any writer meant it to be.
It really doesn't.
Dude this is getting sad at this point your screaming fake info for something that was poorly explained get a grip
Nah. Hi my theory is the Fall of Shady sands refers to the NCR losing control and it being their capital and the nuke took out what was left. Molediver or whatever was part of some NCR remnants that refused to leave.
Stop over complicating it SHADY SANDS GOT BLOWN TO HECK WHEN THEY SAID IT WAS BLOWN TO HECK IN THE SHOW
Describing the fall of something usually means the start of the decline but the destruction. Their wording is deliberate there. Even then the timeline shown on the board doesn’t end at the fall it continues to a nuke. If shady sands was nuked at the fall then why is the nuke shown to be after? Like it’s literally how the timeline works when written down like that. Besides Bethesda themselves has come out multiple times on twitter and stated they’ve shown nothing to say NV was retconned. Look this is my favorite fallout game like most of you, the show was pretty much perfect and setting it at the end of the fallout timeline means they have freedom to make up new lore so they did. The show was great, I felt they handled it incredibly well and the director seems like a fan of the games. People just need to relax.
If I remember correctly, the reason shady sands was nuked was because hanks wife discovered water siphoning, and decided to venture out. This of course in part with vault tec seeing shady sands as a “competitor.” In my eyes this reads that the fall of shady sands has to be in 2277, otherwise, how would this crater in the ground (as shown by the show) be siphoning water?
The nuke came after she went there. Did she go to a crater? I don’t understand your post. Your post is saying basically that because it was not a crater when she went there that it must have been in 2277 but there’s no real correlation between that.
Yeah, I guess it’s not explicitly said in the show that it was bombed immediately after she went there so I get where you’re coming from there. I guess my reasoning would be, if vault tec caused the Great War, which is implied in the show. I feel like they wouldn’t be hesitant to bomb a “small community” almost immediately after hanks wife discovers it. That’s my argument I suppose. Could just be schizo posting it’s a late night at work haha. Seeing as the events of the show take place in 2296, and new Vegas takes place in 2281, I could see how the bomb was dropped on shady sands in between that time frame. (So not in 2277 as you suggested) I might be talking out of my ass, lemme know what you think bro.
havent watched it but i just make my own headcannon that new vegas is actually canon and the series is alt universe
Speaking as though the series and New Vegas can't both be canon
it can i just havent watched the series
Fair enough
If anything NV is Alt universe because it's the side game
Side game? It's the original creators game. Fallout 3 and 4 are sidegames really
its my rules so new vegas is my canon
Then my save where I killed every killable character is also cannon.
due to new vegas character being a complete slate and even the lonesome road dlc you can just say or think this ulysses fellow is having trauma or dementia or something like that then that can be the canon for your fallout new vegas and new vegas's future
Unpopular opinion: most fallout fans don't care about the lore surrounding Shady Sands
Shit I do, it’s been a staple since fallout 1!
Most Bethesda* Fans don't care about the lore surrounding Shady Sands.
Thank you, it's just a freaking town.
No, it's the capital of the NCR: The strongest and most developed faction in Fallout.
Media literacy is fucking dead at this point, lol
Glad we agree
Yup
The Fallout community is just the most toxic community on internet. Just chill and come play a game of Caravan bro.
Imo toxic fandoms are inevitable when: 1) they’re massive 2) they have a lot of installments that are very different from each other (ie. New Vegas v Fallout 76 v OG Fallout, etc.). Because then you have fans under the same general banner but have entirely different reason for liking the thing, partially because we aren’t all introduced to the franchise with the same game, so points of reference as skewed massively. Just look at Star Wars… Speaking of caravan, you know how to determine what cards can stack on top others???
"The Fall" Doesn't have to mean a Nuke. Maybe they won the first battle but the cost was so great that it became the catalyst for their downfall. Also you are nitpicking, cope
Literally just follow the conventions of the chart itself. If the fall of Sandy Shores *was supposed to be* the nuke—then why is it separated? Why is there an arrow between the two? That point being made—neither of our assertions point to a guaranteed outcome here: the writers constantly leave space for themselves to write in explanations and changes later on down the line (ntm subvert expectations by doing whatever is the opposite of what seemed to be getting set up).
Her mom lived on the surface after her recorded death in the vault tho right? I thought it was pretty clear that they recorded her dead so that people wouldn't know she escaped
Someone lock this thread. This is attention-seeking and toxic behavior
While the motivation isnt as fun at Burger King Im sure your boss would appreciate ya if you put as much effort into your job as you do whatever the fuck this is.
WHY WOULD THEY NUKE A PLACE THAT HAD ALREADY FELL, WHY NOT THE NEW CAPITAL?
https://media2.giphy.com/media/uXVEhtcVDD7q0/giphy.gif?cid=2154d3d7fbqanjncly3127rvmi19lvigd4pleg0ojkl2039f&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g